how did Jesus refine the corrupt flesh He inherited from His mother - was Christ the saviour of the fully human Jesus - twinc
wincam
Who said He inherited His flesh from His mother?
Stranger
it seems you have a problem - wincam
: Stranger Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 15:39:01
wincam
Who said He inherited His flesh from His mother?
Stranger
Isn't that how the procreation process works with us humans?
How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. ::shrug::
: wincam Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 15:42:11
it seems you have a problem - wincam
Why do I have a problem? Jesus Christ did not come from corrupt flesh.
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
This is the work of the Holy Spirit. It is not the Holy Spirit making Christ Deity. The Son was already Deity. The Son was not made Deity by the Holy Spirit. But that body that was prepared for Him, was the work of the Holy Spirit. A body of flesh from God without sin.
Stranger
: chosenone Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 16:42:06
How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. ::shrug::
Actually the Bible says none of those things.
: Stranger Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 21:52:33
: wincam Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 15:42:11
it seems you have a problem - wincam
Why do I have a problem? Jesus Christ did not come from corrupt flesh.
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
This is the work of the Holy Spirit. It is not the Holy Spirit making Christ Deity. The Son was already Deity. The Son was not made Deity by the Holy Spirit. But that body that was prepared for Him, was the work of the Holy Spirit. A body of flesh from God without sin.
Stranger
Jesus received his human naure from Mary. Otherwise he could not have redeemed us.
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 10:34:22
: chosenone Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 16:42:06
How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. ::shrug::
Actually the Bible says none of those things.
The Bible doesn't *have* to say it. Why? Because in marriage, its an established fact that it included sex, and sex often leads to offspring...for that to be true of everyone BUT Mary, I would think God would have seen fit to say, "and Joseph never knew her" and we would not read about Jesus siblings because there were never any.
: MeMyself Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 12:19:24
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 10:34:22
: chosenone Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 16:42:06
How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. ::shrug::
Actually the Bible says none of those things.
The Bible doesn't *have* to say it. Why? Because in marriage, its an established fact that it included sex, and sex often leads to offspring...for that to be true of everyone BUT Mary, I would think God would have seen fit to say, "and Joseph never knew her" and we would not read about Jesus siblings because there were never any.
So you admit that your claim, that you have previously posted (many times) actual Bible verse that say these things, is not true.
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 10:34:22
: chosenone Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 16:42:06
How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. ::shrug::
Actually the Bible says none of those things.
Do you not read the parts that dont agree with RC beliefs?
Let this help.
http://www.gotquestions.org/perpetual-virginity-Mary.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/perpetual-virginity-Mary.html)
Matthew 1:25
25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 13:00:13
: MeMyself Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 12:19:24
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 10:34:22
: chosenone Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 16:42:06
How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. ::shrug::
Actually the Bible says none of those things.
The Bible doesn't *have* to say it. Why? Because in marriage, its an established fact that it included sex, and sex often leads to offspring...for that to be true of everyone BUT Mary, I would think God would have seen fit to say, "and Joseph never knew her" and we would not read about Jesus siblings because there were never any.
So you admit that your claim, that you have previously posted (many times) actual Bible verse that say these things, is not true.
I have never said there is scripture that specifically says, "and Joseph took her in his arms and had sexual relations with Mary."
What I have said is, that it follows the context of marriage. Within marriage, there is to be sex. It is THE place God has created for the act to be enjoyed with no shame or sin. And God does not say that Mary and Joseph's marriage was exempt from that. He, in fact, told Joseph not to know her until the child was born; which leads to the logical conclusion that after she healed from the birth of Christ, he had full access to her body.
The Bibles context on the subject is also pretty easy to follow, in that Jesus HAD siblings. That logically concludes that Mary and Joseph had an active marriage bed and siblings were created.
winsome
In your reply #7 you said Jesus recieved His human nature from Mary otherwise he could not have redeemed us. Who says? You? Was Adams body human flesh? So I guess the Holy Spirit could produce another body of flesh not connected with the sinful flesh of Mary.
He did it once didn't He? I guess He can do it again. Perhaps that's why Jesus is called the Last Adam.
Jesus was and is God the Son. The Holy Spirit prepared a body for Him. Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"
Jesus Christ is not connected to the corrupt flesh of Adam or Mary.
Stranger
: chosenone Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 13:14:02
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 10:34:22
: chosenone Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 16:42:06
How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. ::shrug::
Actually the Bible says none of those things.
Do you not read the parts that dont agree with RC beliefs?
Let this help.
http://www.gotquestions.org/perpetual-virginity-Mary.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/perpetual-virginity-Mary.html)
Matthew 1:25
25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.
That does not say that Mary had sexual relations with Joseph after Jesus was born.
It only says that they did not have intercourse between the time Joseph took her into his home and Jesus being born. The 'until' does not mean they had intercourse afterwards. That is an assumption on your part. It's not what the Bible says
: MeMyself Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 13:23:41
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 13:00:13
: MeMyself Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 12:19:24
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 10:34:22
: chosenone Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 16:42:06
How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. ::shrug::
Actually the Bible says none of those things.
The Bible doesn't *have* to say it. Why? Because in marriage, its an established fact that it included sex, and sex often leads to offspring...for that to be true of everyone BUT Mary, I would think God would have seen fit to say, "and Joseph never knew her" and we would not read about Jesus siblings because there were never any.
So you admit that your claim, that you have previously posted (many times) actual Bible verse that say these things, is not true.
I have never said there is scripture that specifically says, "and Joseph took her in his arms and had sexual relations with Mary."
Yes you did. I quote:
"
How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. "
: Stranger Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 13:51:50
winsome
In your reply #7 you said Jesus recieved His human nature from Mary otherwise he could not have redeemed us. Who says? You? Was Adams body human flesh? So I guess the Holy Spirit could produce another body of flesh not connected with the sinful flesh of Mary.
He did it once didn't He? I guess He can do it again. Perhaps that's why Jesus is called the Last Adam.
Jesus was and is God the Son. The Holy Spirit prepared a body for Him. Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"
Jesus Christ is not connected to the corrupt flesh of Adam or Mary.
Stranger
God prepared a body does not say he created one.
Jesus had to redeem all of humanity, all those born from Adam. Jesus was not an alien impregnated into Mary as some surrogate. Scripture is quite clear he was a descendant of David "according to the flesh" (Rom 1:3)
Also Gen 3:15 "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed
and her seed;"
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 14:50:25
: MeMyself Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 13:23:41
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 13:00:13
: MeMyself Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 12:19:24
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 10:34:22
: chosenone Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 16:42:06
How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. ::shrug::
Actually the Bible says none of those things.
The Bible doesn't *have* to say it. Why? Because in marriage, its an established fact that it included sex, and sex often leads to offspring...for that to be true of everyone BUT Mary, I would think God would have seen fit to say, "and Joseph never knew her" and we would not read about Jesus siblings because there were never any.
So you admit that your claim, that you have previously posted (many times) actual Bible verse that say these things, is not true.
I have never said there is scripture that specifically says, "and Joseph took her in his arms and had sexual relations with Mary."
Yes you did. I quote:
"How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. "
haha! I guess that us girls all look alike to you, ::wink:: I didn't say what you've quoted. ChosenOne did. I am MeMyself.
: MeMyself Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 15:10:07
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 14:50:25
: MeMyself Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 13:23:41
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 13:00:13
: MeMyself Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 12:19:24
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 10:34:22
: chosenone Fri Sep 09, 2016 - 16:42:06
How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. ::shrug::
Actually the Bible says none of those things.
The Bible doesn't *have* to say it. Why? Because in marriage, its an established fact that it included sex, and sex often leads to offspring...for that to be true of everyone BUT Mary, I would think God would have seen fit to say, "and Joseph never knew her" and we would not read about Jesus siblings because there were never any.
So you admit that your claim, that you have previously posted (many times) actual Bible verse that say these things, is not true.
I have never said there is scripture that specifically says, "and Joseph took her in his arms and had sexual relations with Mary."
Yes you did. I quote:
"How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. "
haha! I guess that us girls all look alike to you, ::wink:: I didn't say what you've quoted. ChosenOne did. I am MeMyself.
Whoops! My apologies. I wasn't looking carefully enough.
What's the saying? "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" ::smile::
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 15:17:55
Whoops! My apologies. I wasn't looking carefully enough.
What's the saying? "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" ::smile::
::smile:: No worries.
Not a fool, just speed reading, I am guess. ::smile::
winsome
Concerning your reply #15: But the Holy Spirit created that body. Didn't he? What did we just read in Luke 1:35 ..."The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. " And we are told in Phillippians 2:7 that Jesus was " made in the likeness of men:" Seems He was somewhat special.
As I said earlier, The Holy Spirit was not creating the Deity of Christ. He was creating the humanity of Christ. Or do you disagree? Was the Holy Spirit creating the Deity of the Son?
Yes I know you already said Jesus had to redeem all of humanity. I don't disagree with that. So what? Jesus was not an alien in that He was born of Mary. He was Alien in that it was a Supernatural birth and foreign to any birth before and ever will be.
Yes, Jesus was a decendant of David according to the flesh because He was born of Mary. That doesn't mean He was affected with Mary's sinful flesh. And if I remember right, women don't have 'seed'. The man does.
Stranger
: Stranger Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 17:16:22
winsome
Concerning your reply #15: But the Holy Spirit created that body. Didn't he? What did we just read in Luke 1:35 ..."The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. " And we are told in Phillippians 2:7 that Jesus was " made in the likeness of men:" Seems He was somewhat special.
No the Holy Spirit didn't create Jesus' body. The quote you give doesn't say that he did
: Stranger Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 17:16:22
As I said earlier, The Holy Spirit was not creating the Deity of Christ. He was creating the humanity of Christ. Or do you disagree? Was the Holy Spirit creating the Deity of the Son?
The Holy Spirit didn't create the humanity of Christ.
As to his creating the Divinity of Christ - why should I consider such a heresy?
: Stranger Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 17:16:22
Yes I know you already said Jesus had to redeem all of humanity. I don't disagree with that. So what? Jesus was not an alien in that He was born of Mary. He was Alien in that it was a Supernatural birth and foreign to any birth before and ever will be.
Jesus Christ was fully human and that humanity came from Mary.
: Stranger Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 17:16:22
Yes, Jesus was a decendant of David according to the flesh because He was born of Mary. That doesn't mean He was affected with Mary's sinful flesh. And if I remember right, women don't have 'seed'. The man does.
Stranger
Neither woman nor the man biologically has 'seed'. The man has sperm and ther woman has eggs.
If we consider the sexual reproduction of plants (where 'seed' is appropriate), it the female ovules that get pollinated and develops into seeds. Similarly with hiumans it is the female egg that is ferilised and developes into the equivalent - a human embryo. It is not the male sperm that developes into a human embryo.
Jesus came from one of Mary's eggs just as in any other human. But in her case it was by the power of the Holy Spirit rather than the normal method of sexual intercourse.
Thus Jesus is of her "seed", he is the fruit of her womb (Lk 1:42).
Jesus would not be a descendant of David 'according to the flesh' if he was an alien implant into Mary.
winsome
Well, Hebrews 10:5 says "a body thou hast prepared for me". Seems "a body" was what was being prepared and created. As I already said, and which you agree, Jesus didn't get His Deity from the Holy Spirit. He The Son was already Deity. That only leaves the 'body' that the Holy Spirit, prepared or created. Jesus was made in the 'likeness of men'. Phil. 2:7
And, concerning the 'seed', Scripture says 'of the seed of the woman'. But you say neither the man or the woman have seed. That seems strange. You just told me the Scriptures I gave didn't say Jesus body was what the Holy Spirit created. And now the Scriptures say 'the seed of the woman' but you say neither men or women have seed. So, what are you saying? God didn't really mean what He said when He said, 'seed of the woman" ?
If Jesus got His flesh from Mary, or David, then He would be sinful. The Holy Spirit had to create that body in the womb of Mary. "That Holy Thing".
Of course He was Alien. He was God. Do you believe Jesus got His body from sinful Mary?
Stranger
: Stranger Tue Sep 13, 2016 - 13:33:13
winsome
Well, Hebrews 10:5 says "a body thou hast prepared for me". Seems "a body" was what was being prepared and created. As I already said, and which you agree, Jesus didn't get His Deity from the Holy Spirit. He The Son was already Deity. That only leaves the 'body' that the Holy Spirit, prepared or created. Jesus was made in the 'likeness of men'. Phil. 2:7
And, concerning the 'seed', Scripture says 'of the seed of the woman'. But you say neither the man or the woman have seed. That seems strange. You just told me the Scriptures I gave didn't say Jesus body was what the Holy Spirit created. And now the Scriptures say 'the seed of the woman' but you say neither men or women have seed. So, what are you saying? God didn't really mean what He said when He said, 'seed of the woman" ?
If Jesus got His flesh from Mary, or David, then He would be sinful. The Holy Spirit had to create that body in the womb of Mary. "That Holy Thing".
Of course He was Alien. He was God. Do you believe Jesus got His body from sinful Mary?
Stranger
Stranger,
I'm trying hard to believe that you are not wilfully misunderstanding me here.
God prepared for the Incarnation from the beginning as is indicated in Gen 3:15. It was all part of his plan. That is what prepared means. Moreover God prepared Mary to be the true mother of Jesus as I will come to in a moment
The analogy I drew with plants is the the 'seed' is the
fertilised egg - of the woman (just as the seed of a plant is the fertilised ovules) . Jesus came from Mary 'according to the flesh' not by implantation of something alien to her body. It was Mary's fertilised egg that grew into Jesus in her womb just as for any human being. Jesus was the fruit of her womb (LK 1:42)
Jesus is true man as well as true God.
The point about God preparing Mary is that she was made immaculate (free from stain of sin) at her conception. She was saved from the effects of original sin - hence she needed a saviour (LK 1:47) but in a different way to that by which we are saved. Jesus therefore did not inherit a sinful nature from Mary because she did not have a sinful nature.
winsome
Your reply #20, you said to me, "The quote you give doesn't say that he did"
You give to me now your version with some verses, of which I say to you, 'The quote you give doesn't say that'.
I said, as Scripture says, that God prepared a body for the Son. You instead, say God prepared Mary. Scripture doesn't say God had to prepare Mary. He just told Mary.
You dislike that the Holy Spirit prepared and created that body that the Son would become, because it destroys your belief in Mary's immaculate conception. It wasn't needed. And you can't show that it was needed. Else you would.
If what the Holy Spirit created in Mary's womb, was not alien, then it was corrupted by the flesh. It was alien, in that it was God.
Now, did God create Adam? Of flesh? Without sin? Yes or No?
Can God create the Last Adam, of flesh, without sin, yes or no?
Stranger
: winsome Mon Sep 12, 2016 - 14:47:23
That does not say that Mary had sexual relations with Joseph after Jesus was born.
It only says that they did not have intercourse between the time Joseph took her into his home and Jesus being born. The 'until' does not mean they had intercourse afterwards. That is an assumption on your part. It's not what the Bible says
First: We are told to go and multiply.
THAT IS A COMMANDMENT OF GOD, HIMSELF.
From the Catholic Online Bible
Genesis 1-28 God blessed them, saying to them,
'Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven and all the living creatures that move on earth.'
In fact: Genisis 1-28 is the very first commandment in the Bible
" be fruitful and multiply"This is from the Catholic Bible... Not King James or any other.
And if Mary and Joseph did not cement their marriage, after Jesus' birth... they would have been sinning against
God. WOULD GOD HAVE PERMITTED THOSE WHO DEFIED A COMMANDMENT TO RAISE UP JESUS WITH HIS MOST IMPORTANT ROLE FOR HUMANITY? I doubt it.
Not to mention.... how many men do you know who would be married to a woman and not "know" her, forever? Back in that day and age, that was legal grounds for divorce.
We are told in Matt 1-25
Catholic Online Bible:
25 he had not had intercourse with her when she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.
It does not say they never had intercourse.
Now I could post many differing interpretations of Matt 1-25 but for the sake of brevity I will not.
But what in the world difference does it make? Mary was chosen to be the perfect vessel for Jesus to be born from.
NO ONE argues that.
I say a prayer to Mary every mother's day and thank her for that.
But once Jesus was born.. Then they could well have been a normal husband and wife for that day and age.
In fact, as Jesus was not even considered to be "special" as a child growing up... it seems quite reasonable that
he had a normal upbringing with his siblings until it was time for him to "become a man " and then grow into
taking the rolle of his "Father's business".
yes yes yes but but but what you say and imagine and assume is not in the Bible - what is in the Bible is that Sarah and Elizabeth had plenty of time for sex but did not increase and multiply and nor did Jesus increase and multiply - wincam
: Stranger Tue Sep 13, 2016 - 15:27:42
winsome
Your reply #20, you said to me, "The quote you give doesn't say that he did"
You give to me now your version with some verses, of which I say to you, 'The quote you give doesn't say that'.
I said, as Scripture says, that God prepared a body for the Son. You instead, say God prepared Mary. Scripture doesn't say God had to prepare Mary. He just told Mary.
You dislike that the Holy Spirit prepared and created that body that the Son would become, because it destroys your belief in Mary's immaculate conception. It wasn't needed. And you can't show that it was needed. Else you would.
If what the Holy Spirit created in Mary's womb, was not alien, then it was corrupted by the flesh. It was alien, in that it was God.
Now, did God create Adam? Of flesh? Without sin? Yes or No?
Can God create the Last Adam, of flesh, without sin, yes or no?
Stranger
Hi Stranger,
I'm on holiday with not much time and an android tablet - not the greatest for long replies. So I'm going to do something i rarely do - a copy and paste from an article i kept long ago and I've just rediscovered which will answer this:
: Objection: Mary didn't give Jesus His humanity; God created a new humanity for Him in heaven. Mary just bore and gave birth to it.
Yes, some people do believe this! It is called the "celestial flesh" teaching, and was taught by, among others, Menno Simmons, the founder of the Mennonites (though I think the Mennonites have since repudiated this heresy). Some people today believe in it as well; I hope it is not a widespread belief, but since the idea is out there it must be answered.
This would have to be the ultimate attempt to downplay the Mother of Jesus; reducing her to a mere incubator for a Sacred Humanity newly created by God! The "celestial flesh" teaching is actually a revival of the heretical Christology of Valentinus, a second-century Gnostic who taught that Jesus' body was made in heaven and that He passed through Mary "as water through a pipe", taking nothing from her.
The early Church had a saying: "That which Christ has not assumed He has not healed". Our Lord became incarnate so that He could assume our common humanity in order to redeem it (see Hebrews 2:14). If He instead assumed some other, separate humanity, then He never truly became a member of the human race and so could not have redeemed the human race!
Proponents of the "celestial flesh" heresy cite I Corinthians 15:47 to support their belief: "The first man is of the earth, earthly; the second man is the Lord from heaven". Yet this passage clearly refers to Jesus' Eternal, Divine origin as opposed to Adam's created, earthly origin; not to the origin of the Sacred Humanity.
If it referred to His human nature, it would contradict Hebrews 2:14, which states that Jesus partook of the same flesh and blood which we share. It would also mean that Jesus is not an Israelite (contradicting Romans 9:5); that He is not of the seed of David according to the flesh (contradicting Romans 1:3), nor the seed of Abraham (contradicting Gn 22:18); nor even the seed of a woman (contradicting Gn 3:15)!
Finally, it would contradict Galatians 4:4, which tells us that "When the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law". The term "made" here is ginomai, which means "to become, be made of or formed (from geino, "to form")". Yes, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus' Sacred Body was actually formed from the very substance of Mary, so she is truly His Mother. Anyone who says otherwise is teaching a contra-biblical doctrine of men!
Winsome - exactly and spot on - amen, amen and amen - so next time one and all just simply accept what the Church and twinc say - twinc
winsome
Thats fine. Enjoy your holiday. Get back with me when you're finished. I never liked responding to secondary knowledge.
Stranger
I can't help feel that Mary wasn't necessary in the role that she has been given by some, I've always understood the purpose of Christ's birth as 100% human from a 100% human to show us that He was just like us, yet in His Deity, able to overcome where we could not.
The elevation of Mary's status beyond being the vessel that carried Jesus removes much of the intent of "humanity" itself.
: Stranger Wed Sep 14, 2016 - 18:44:28
winsome
Thats fine. Enjoy your holiday. Get back with me when you're finished. I never liked responding to secondary knowledge.
Stranger
I'd only say the same - just rephrased sightly.
winsome
I have never heard of celestial flesh teaching.
But, I would ask you, was the flesh of Adam considered 'celestial flesh' or flesh? After all, there wasn't anything wrong with it.
Stranger
: Stranger Thu Sep 15, 2016 - 14:17:54
winsome
I have never heard of celestial flesh teaching.
But, I would ask you, was the flesh of Adam considered 'celestial flesh' or flesh? After all, there wasn't anything wrong with it.
Stranger
Stanger,
The name is not relevant. It fits what you are describing and the refutation applicable.
winsome
Well, call it whatever you like. Was the flesh of Adam, when He was created, celestial or other worldly, or whatever?
Stranger
but he has nothing in me. no bent or desire to do wrong . nothing. no memory, no path , no way , no door, no eniquity no transgression no sin. he was bruised for our eniquity not his and so we can be free of our carnal nature that claws on the inside of us. enquity is the bent or desire to do wrong. transgression is when we act on it. He didnt have marys sin. And yes she sinned like all mankind.
: bemark Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 07:31:29
but he has nothing in me. no bent or desire to do wrong . nothing. no memory, no path , no way , no door, no eniquity no transgression no sin. he was bruised for our eniquity not his and so we can be free of our carnal nature that claws on the inside of us. enquity is the bent or desire to do wrong. transgression is when we act on it. He didnt have marys sin. And yes she sinned like all mankind.
That's all true, no one will argue. But, we are discussing the 'how' that was accomplished. 'How' did the Son become man and free from sin? Do you see?
Stranger
Did Adam and Eve need to be born or were they made. one from the dust and one from the rib. Where was the sperm and the Egg in that one? Could have God just made the second Adam like he did in the begining with out the sperm or egg. He didnt need mans help then, Dont know.
: bemark Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 16:09:31
Did Adam and Eve need to be born or were they made. one from the dust and one from the rib. Where was the sperm and the Egg in that one? Could have God just made the second Adam like he did in the begining with out the sperm or egg. He didnt need mans help then, Dont know.
If you don't know, then just standby and learn.
Stranger
Hi Stranger,
You claim that God created a new body for Christ. As far as I can see the only scripture you have quoted to support this is Heb 10:5
"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"
This does not say that God created a body but prepared one. Prepare does not mean create anew, and there are several scriptures that refute that.
1. Heb 2;14 says
"Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature,..."
Jesus has the same nature – not a similar newly created nature.
2. Genesis 3:15
"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
The 'he' is Jesus and he will be the seed of the woman. This clearly implies a genetic descent.
3. Gal 3:16
"Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many; but, referring to one, "And to your offspring," which is Christ."
If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from Abraham.
4. Gen 22;18
"and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice."
We are blessed through Christ. So he had to be a descendant of Abraham.
5. Rom 1:3
"...the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh".
If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from David according to the flesh.
6. Rom 9:4-5
"They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ.
Again, if Christ was a brand new creation he could not have been an Israelite according to the flesh.
7. Gal 4:4
"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law"
The Greek for 'born' here is gemenenon, Strong 1096:
"A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being),..."
The KJV translates it as made.
Again this implies that Jesus body is generated (made) from Mary.
8. Lk 1:31
"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus"
By any normal interpretation conceive means to become pregnant with material from the mother.
9. Lk 1:32
"He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David".
If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from David and therefore David could not be called his father and he would have no legitimate claim to the throne of David. God's promise to David (2Sam 7:16) would have been broken:
"And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever."
Hello Winsome
I am not saying that Jesus is not connected to the line of Mary or David or Abraham or Adam. He most definitely is. But that body that was prepared for Him could not come from Mary's flesh. Else it would be sinful. To that you agree as Catholics see this problem answered in Mary's sin being taken away from her. Correct?
I did give other Scripture also. Phil. 2:5-7 " ...made in the likeness of men:
It says in John 1:14 that " ...the Word was made flesh...." And earlier it said that everything was made by God. John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. " The same word is used for the Word being made flesh as for all things made by God.
I agree that Jesus is of the seed of the woman. But, you said earlier that women have no seed. And of course that is what we are always told. But, Scripture does say the woman has seed. And I believe it. And I believe that it is somehow here where the answer lies.
Stranger
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 07:14:53
Hello Winsome
I am not saying that Jesus is not connected to the line of Mary or David or Abraham or Adam.
But that is exactly what you are claiming.
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 07:14:53But that body that was prepared for Him could not come from Mary's flesh. Else it would be sinful. To that you agree as Catholics see this problem answered in Mary's sin being taken away from her. Correct?
Incorrect
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 07:14:53
I did give other Scripture also. Phil. 2:5-7 " ...made in the likeness of men:
That adds nothing to your claim.
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 07:14:53
It says in John 1:14 that " ...the Word was made flesh...." And earlier it said that everything was made by God. John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. " The same word is used for the Word being made flesh as for all things made by God.
Yes it's the same base word – G1096 – that I quoted in my last post
"A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb;
to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively)
to become (come into being),..."
And that
made/caused to be/come into being is from a woman (Mary) – Gal 4:4
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 07:14:53I agree that Jesus is of the seed of the woman. But, you said earlier that women have no seed. And of course that is what we are always told. But, Scripture does say the woman has seed. And I believe it. And I believe that it is somehow here where the answer lies.
Stranger
Literally seeds come from plants. Therefore neither a woman nor a man
literally has seed since we are not plants. But by analogy to a plant, the woman has a seed in that her eggs are analogous to seeds (or at least the ovules). The analogy for a male is pollen. A more accurate analogy of the seed is a fertilised egg – one that is
prepared for growth in the womb – the fruit of the womb.
Are you going to respond to the scriptures I quoted or are you going to try and ignore them?
winsome
No, Im saying Jesus was not made of Mary's corrupt flesh. And how is it Catholics are not saying the same thing?
Well, Phil. 2:5-7 says 'in the likeness of men" . Rom. 8:3 says "in the likeness of sinful flesh". Like but somewhat different.
You ignore the point John 1:14. That is John 1:3. "All things are made by Him". The same word is used there to speak of all that God created.
Again, I believe the Scripture. It says from the woman's seed. And it speaks of man having seed.
I thought I did address them as they all speak to lineal descent. And I said at the begining that I'm not saying that Jesus is not connected to the lineage of Mary.
And you never answered my question. Was the flesh of Adam celestial, or other worldly or what, when God made it?
Stranger
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 11:45:11
winsome
No, Im saying Jesus was not made of Mary's corrupt flesh. And how is it Catholics are not saying the same thing?
Jesus was not made of Mary's corrupt flesh because she didn't have corrupt flesh.
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 11:45:11
Well, Phil. 2:5-7 says 'in the likeness of men" . Rom. 8:3 says "in the likeness of sinful flesh". Like but somewhat different.
So what? How does that say that Jesus had a special body created just for him?
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 11:45:11
You ignore the point John 1:14. That is John 1:3. "All things are made by Him". The same word is used there to speak of all that God created.
I'm not ignoring the point. Make is not necessarily the same as created
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 11:45:11
Again, I believe the Scripture. It says from the woman's seed. And it speaks of man having seed.
Does it? Where?
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 11:45:11
I thought I did address them as they all speak to lineal descent. And I said at the begining that I'm not saying that Jesus is not connected to the lineage of Mary.
No, you didn't address them. You tried to sidestep them with vague 'lineal descent' and 'connected to the lineage' without any explanation. as to what you meant by that.
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 11:45:11
And you never answered my question. Was the flesh of Adam celestial, or other worldly or what, when God made it?
I never said that Adam's flesh was celestial or that Jesus' flesh was celestial. Adam was made from the dust of the earth. Jesus was '
made/caused to be/come into being' from Mary.
Here is a reminder of the scriptures you are ignoring:
3. Gal 3:16
"Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many; but, referring to one, "And to your offspring," which is Christ."
If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from Abraham.
4. Gen 22;18
"and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice."
We are blessed through Christ. So he had to be a descendant of Abraham.
5. Rom 1:3
"...the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh".
If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from David
according to the flesh.
6. Rom 9:4-5
"They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ.
Again, if Christ was a brand new creation he could not have been an Israelite
according to the flesh.
7. Gal 4:4
"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law"
The Greek for 'born' here is gemenenon, Strong 1096:
"A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb;
to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively)
to become (come into being),..."
The KJV translates it as
made.
Again this implies that Jesus body is generated (made) from Mary.
8. Lk 1:31
"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus"
By any normal interpretation
conceive means to become pregnant with material from the mother.
9. Lk 1:32
"He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David".
If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from David and therefore David could not be called his father and he would have no legitimate claim to the throne of David. God's promise to David (2Sam 7:16) would have been broken:
"And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever."
winsome
Well, if Mary didn't have corrupt flesh, where did hers come from. Sounds 'celestial' to me. If Mary is connected to Adam, then her flesh has to be corrupted, ulnless God did something special. Did He?
And concerning Adams flesh, it was made before the fall. It was made before the earth was cursed. So would you consider his flesh 'heavenly', or 'celestial'.
When John 1:3 says 'All things were made by Him', that means creation. In other words, the word 'created' is not used, the word 'made' is. Which means the exact word 'create' doesn't have to be used to speak to 'creation'. See Ps. 124:8, 134:3 Which means in Hebrew 10:5 where it says, 'a body hast thou prepared me', just because the word 'created' wasn't used, doesn't mean it was not especially made by the Holy Spirit.
A body prepared for Christ------Heb.10:5
That Holy Thing born of Mary---Lu. 1:35
The Word was made flesh-------Jn. 1:14
There are many many seed verses in the Scripture. Here are just a few.
Gen. 3:15 'seed of the woman'
Lev. 12:2 'if a woman have conceived seed'
Lev.15:16,17, 18, 32 'if any mans seed of copulation'
Again, I addressed your Scriptures. I don't deny the lineal descent of Christ all the way back to Adam. I deny He was made of Mary's sinful flesh.
Stranger
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 17:21:47
winsome
Well, if Mary didn't have corrupt flesh, where did hers come from. Sounds 'celestial' to me. If Mary is connected to Adam, then her flesh has to be corrupted, ulnless God did something special. Did He?
See reply #22
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 17:21:47
I deny He was made of Mary's sinful flesh.
So do I because Mary did not have "sinful flesh" - see reply #22
: Stranger Thu Sep 22, 2016 - 17:21:47
Again, I addressed your Scriptures. I don't deny the lineal descent of Christ all the way back to Adam.
So how can he have had lineal descent "according to the flesh" if that descent wasn't a biological descent.
If that descent is biological - "according to the flesh" - then he came from Mary's flesh.
You are still avoiding:
Rom 1:3
"...the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David
according to the flesh".
Rom 9:4-5
"They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race,
according to the flesh, is the Christ.
Look Stranger - you keep avoiding the main issue here. I will await your proper response but I will waste no more time until you respond to that.
winsome
As I said earlier, to which you disagree of course, Mary's immaculate conception is Catholics way of dealing with the problem of corrupt flesh. How can Jesus be born without sin from Mary who is sinner?
In other words, a virgin birth alone is not the answer if Mary's sinful flesh is involved. Catholics answer that with immaculate conception.
I disagree with that, but then I'm left with the problem still. If Mary is a sinner like all are, then how can her flesh be used to make the body for Jesus Christ Who is without sin?
I believe, as I said earlier, that the answer lies in the 'seed of the woman'. But you disagree with that cause you say neither men or women have seed.
The Scriptures which say 'according to the flesh' are true. I believe the seed of the woman which originated in Eve, before the fall, was not stained with sin as Adams seed was. It was placed in her and protected. And every woman has that seed. But when they have sex with a man, then the seed of the man contaminates her seed and the result is a sinner born from Adam. Because it is Mary's seed, it is of her but protected from her sinful flesh.
It is that seed that I believe the Holy Spirit used to prepare, make, create a body for Jesus Christ. The union of God and that seed is mysterious to say the least. And the link to Mary, David, Abraham remains. And the link to Adam remains because Eve is taken from Adams flesh. Sinless flesh.
It is very interesting and there are books on it.
Stranger
: Stranger Fri Sep 23, 2016 - 05:00:03
winsome
As I said earlier, to which you disagree of course, Mary's immaculate conception is Catholics way of dealing with the problem of corrupt flesh. How can Jesus be born without sin from Mary who is sinner?
In other words, a virgin birth alone is not the answer if Mary's sinful flesh is involved. Catholics answer that with immaculate conception.
I disagree with that, but then I'm left with the problem still. If Mary is a sinner like all are, then how can her flesh be used to make the body for Jesus Christ Who is without sin?
I believe, as I said earlier, that the answer lies in the 'seed of the woman'. But you disagree with that cause you say neither men or women have seed.
The Scriptures which say 'according to the flesh' are true. I believe the seed of the woman which originated in Eve, before the fall, was not stained with sin as Adams seed was. It was placed in her and protected. And every woman has that seed. But when they have sex with a man, then the seed of the man contaminates her seed and the result is a sinner born from Adam. Because it is Mary's seed, it is of her but protected from her sinful flesh.
It is that seed that I believe the Holy Spirit used to prepare, make, create a body for Jesus Christ. The union of God and that seed is mysterious to say the least. And the link to Mary, David, Abraham remains. And the link to Adam remains because Eve is taken from Adams flesh. Sinless flesh.
It is very interesting and there are books on it.
Stranger
So according to your theory, every women living, or who who has ever lived, has an immaculate egg in her body, just in case God chose her to be the mother of Jesus, but you just cannot believe that God could preserve one women from the effects of original sin.
Well, no more to be said then!
winsome
I like the Scriptural word, seed. And not a 'just in case'. God was setting in place the salvation for man at the very begining of His creation.
Oh, I guess God could have preserved a woman from the affects of original sin, if she had been born of the union of God with the seed of the woman as Christ was. But Scripture tells us it was Christ that was born that way. Not Mary.
And if Mary is the product of a man and woman, then she is a sinner. You were adamant about the linage of the flesh concerning Christ. Well, there is no way Mary cannot be a sinner with the linage she has.
In other words, I think what I believe has more credibility in the Scripture than what you believe.
Stranger