Since the scriptures are clear that no other day was made as the day of worship except the seventh day, and the Commandments show this with unblinking clarity to Christians. If they are fully aware that Sunday worship is not ordained by God or anywhere in the Bible or given by Christ or the apostles, and with full knowledge continue to transgress what is shown to them from scripture, will God wink at it, lets look at scripture......
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
It shows that God allows for mankinds ignorance, but we have Christians who are aware of the history of Sunday worship. Sunday was the established day of festival, a pagan day to the gods in the pagan world. Later, when these pagans professed Christianity, they gradually brought the practice of the pagan festivals on Sunday with them into the church, and the bishops looked the other way as long as they had 'converts' to show they were more influential or had more numbers than other bishops.
Now from scripture we see the people of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, including Jesus Christ Himself (e.g. Luke 4:16), observed the Sabbath. No where in the Bible, including after Christ's resurrection, will you find people observing the first day of the week, Sunday, as a replacement for the Sabbath.
Now, lets take a closer look at transgression, or what is inquity or sin, from scripture.
1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
If we look it is any thought, word or action, omission or desire, contrary to the law of God.(Rom.8:3) Sin in us has been condemned, thus when we come humbly to God and confess our wrong doing in repentance, the Father forgives and justifies us of all sin, which are the acts committed against His Law. So what does Gods Law written with His own finger say:
"8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11 (KJV)
And Christ Himself declares...
"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:17
If we choose to deny the sacrifice of Christ and continue to transgress Gods Law, and live knowingly in sin, there will be consequences. Jeremiah 5:25 says,"Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you."
So from scripture we can see that iniquity and sin really puts us in the domain of evil and the blessings of the Lord are withheld from us. We can see the consequences of iniquity all over the Bible, when Cain held on to the evil thoughts and we know the results, and when jealousy over a coat caused brothers to try to kill and they sell their own flesh and blood, and Judas selling out for 30 pieces of silver. The Bible is full of examples of people holding on to iniquity instead of trusting in the Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the great I AM, writer of the Law, Lord of the Sabbath, Christ our Lord, and the truth he brings.
But then if Christians stay with sin and iniquity, and knowingly continue in transgression and do not come humbly before God and admit and confess/repent the sin, but with full knowledge of it, hold on to it and do no let it go, what does Christ say to them.
Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So if Christians, knowing that Sunday is not the Sabbath, and knowing the Commandments show what is transgression or iniquity/sin, and clearly show what day is the Sabbath, continue to transgress what God commands, what will happen to them when Christ comes...
I worship God everyday. I must be in real trouble. ::hiding::
: Jd34 Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 06:23:32
I worship God everyday. I must be in real trouble. ::hiding::
Good for you. The idea of coming together on Sunday or any other day to "worship" isn't mentioned in the NT that I am aware of. They came together for fellowship, breaking bread [eating together], prayer and for learning [the apostles teachings].
: 4WD Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 06:33:00
: Jd34 Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 06:23:32
I worship God everyday. I must be in real trouble. ::hiding::
Good for you. The idea of coming together on Sunday or any other day to "worship" isn't mentioned in the NT that I am aware of. They came together for fellowship, breaking bread [eating together], prayer and for learning [the apostles teachings].
I've always defended that stance myself, EVERYDAY is the Lord's day, if we choose one day over another to exalt the Lord and act "differently" we are failing what we are taught in the scriptures.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The commandment itself doesn't really say anything about gathering together, that is more or less just a result of people of like mind doing so on the common day they observe as God's appointed day of rest.
A very large contingency of professed Christians however, follow a leader who teaches that Jesus did away with the fourth commandment, and established Sunday as the Christian day of rest and worship. This they claim He did through the Church, which was and is them, and that all Christians therefore should do likewise. Accordingly, they have worked with kings and governments throughout history establishing earthly laws enforcing the observance of this day upon all within these various kingdoms or countries. Such movements are underway presently and will no doubt continue.
These laws create contention between those pushing them, and all those of course who disagree with them. The latter including Christians who know the bible itself ever only refers to one day commanded by God to be observed as His Sabbath. These Christians understand that the day must be observed by faith in the word of God, not compulsion since forced worship is really no worship at all. The man of sin though, who established Sunday rest by human laws, believes all should be compelled to observe the day he and his cohorts have chosen. Thus the unending Sunday laws in this world since its establishment, and the continual movements supporting them.
While many make excuses for ignoring the fourth commandment at present, there will be no excuses when the day of the Sun is again exalted by the laws of the land above that day which God Himself commanded as the day of rest. At that time all will decide whether they worship God, or man. God Himself will allow for this situation to develop exactly to bring all of humanity to a settled decision regarding who they worship, before He returns to end this world and replace it with one where all worship Him as the true and rightful Lord of all. Until such a time, all are of course responsible for working out their own salvation with fear and trembling regarding their true condition before God relating to His commands, and the salvation provided for us through His Son Jesus Christ.
11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
The Sabbath commandment is exactly about exercising faith in the God who created our and every other world. Before Christ returns as depicted in the book of Revelation chapter 14, a message will go out to the world warning them to once again worship Him who created heaven and earth. This is a direct call back to the observance of the fourth commandment of God, which itself is a God designated time to do just exactly that.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
While God's people will be calling all back to worship the creator of heaven and earth by observing His fourth commandment directly connected to the same by faith in His word, the man of sin and his minions will be busy establishing their spurious day of worship through human laws forcing it upon all. at which time all of humanity will choose who they really worship before Christ returns.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
During this time, the saints are those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. The Sabbath Sunday issue is exactly about keeping the commandment of God or not. It has been, is, and will continue to be so. Which harvest will you be a part of? Will you be among the saints who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus, or not? Time alone will tell.
No, the downfall of many Christians is our defiant refusal to honor the call of Romans 14.
Its heartbreaking how many podiums of judgment we erect to stand and point fingers at others over, rather than being a place of humility; eager to show the grace that God so lavishes upon our own pitiful hearts.
The downfall of many "Christians" has been and will be the desire to cling to holy days and other laws, and worse, to impose such strictures on others, showing themselves to be "severed from Christ" and inviting anathema.
Every day belongs to Him, and actually the early church met together every day.
Acts 2:46 - Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts...
Col. 2 shows us that the SDA church is full of it.
: MeMyself Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 09:58:06
No, the downfall of many Christians is our defiant refusal to honor the call of Romans 14.
Its heartbreaking how many podiums of judgment we erect to stand and point fingers at others over, rather than being a place of humility; eager to show the grace that God so lavishes upon our own pitiful hearts.
I take it you are referring to the following.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
The Sabbath is not mentioned in the above verses. If we are to apply it to Sabbath or Sunday observance though, which it cannot not be referring to, Sunday keepers have been the far more guilty party pertaining to it. While Sabbath keepers have and do feel the conviction to tell the truth concerning continued Sabbath observance, they have not made human laws enforcing their day upon all as Sunday keepers have repeatedly done throughout history. Even persecuting those who would not keep their chosen day. Even now many wish for and are striving for laws forcing all to acknowledge their day of worship.
: NorrinRadd Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 10:21:10
The downfall of many "Christians" has been and will be the desire to cling to holy days and other laws, and worse, to impose such strictures on others, showing themselves to be "severed from Christ" and inviting anathema.
The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)
Again, more applicable to Sunday keepers than Sabbath keepers. Attempting not only to force their day on others, but prevent others from keeping the seventh day sabbath by threatening them with being cut off from Christ. As though they or any ever had such power to do so.
: chosenone Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 11:23:08
Every day belongs to Him, and actually the early church met together every day.
Acts 2:46 - Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts...
Yes they did. No hint anywhere though, that this abolished the seventh day Sabbath and fourth commandment, and or established Sunday as a day of worship.
: Texas Conservative Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 11:30:01
Col. 2 shows us that the SDA church is full of it.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ............
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
If you would make such as the above refer to the Sabbath day sanctified by our Lord and Creator Jesus Christ at creation, spoken by the mouth of God Himself at the mount, and written with His own finger in stone, you are on your own.
Apart from this though again, if those who keep the fourth commandment are guilty of the above, then Sunday keepers are doubly so for repeatedly forcing their own unquestionably man made tradition upon all many times over.
I know some Seventh Day Adventists. The ones I know use their religion so they don't have to work on Saturday. And, I've never seen one honor the Sabbath when it actually starts, at sundown on Friday. They're out in the restaurants, malls, and theaters on Friday night causing many others to have to break the Sabbath they claim to honor.
: Amo Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 14:28:18
: MeMyself Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 09:58:06
No, the downfall of many Christians is our defiant refusal to honor the call of Romans 14.
Its heartbreaking how many podiums of judgment we erect to stand and point fingers at others over, rather than being a place of humility; eager to show the grace that God so lavishes upon our own pitiful hearts.
I take it you are referring to the following.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
The Sabbath is not mentioned in the above verses. If we are to apply it to Sabbath or Sunday observance though, which it cannot not be referring to, Sunday keepers have been the far more guilty party pertaining to it. While Sabbath keepers have and do feel the conviction to tell the truth concerning continued Sabbath observance, they have not made human laws enforcing their day upon all as Sunday keepers have repeatedly done throughout history. Even persecuting those who would not keep their chosen day. Even now many wish for and are striving for laws forcing all to acknowledge their day of worship.
It is an absolutely legalistic view to try and say that only what is mentioned in the chapter is what Paul is talking about. He is talking about ALL disputable matters.
Including judging others over the what day they keep.
And, whats the point in saying "they do it worse!"? A childish one and one that can't be proven, actually. I have *never* heard Sabbath keepers treated with disgrace, but Sunday worshipers have been told they have the mark of the beast, are lost, aren't true Christ followers, etc.
: notreligus Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 15:17:52
I know some Seventh Day Adventists. The ones I know use their religion so they don't have to work on Saturday. And, I've never seen one honor the Sabbath when it actually starts, at sundown on Friday. They're out in the restaurants, malls, and theaters on Friday night causing many others to have to break the Sabbath they claim to honor.
Me too. While I have had a fun time at lunch with the ones I know on Saturday, after they get out from their church, it has often confused me...
: notreligus Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 15:17:52
I know some Seventh Day Adventists. The ones I know use their religion so they don't have to work on Saturday. And, I've never seen one honor the Sabbath when it actually starts, at sundown on Friday. They're out in the restaurants, malls, and theaters on Friday night causing many others to have to break the Sabbath they claim to honor.
Thats unfortunate. I know many who do no such things. Nor do I. On the other hand, I have eaten out on Sabbath on occasion, under certain circumstance. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and one must determine for themselves what is good or not in certain situations. Nor Do I believe God expects Sabbath keepers to go hungry on Sabbaths when situations dictate eating out or doing so. Nor does any Sabbath keeper or anyone else for that matter make anyone who does not observe the Sabbath to begin with, break it by eating where they work on the Sabbath.
: MeMyself Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 16:40:20
: Amo Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 14:28:18
: MeMyself Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 09:58:06
No, the downfall of many Christians is our defiant refusal to honor the call of Romans 14.
Its heartbreaking how many podiums of judgment we erect to stand and point fingers at others over, rather than being a place of humility; eager to show the grace that God so lavishes upon our own pitiful hearts.
I take it you are referring to the following.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
The Sabbath is not mentioned in the above verses. If we are to apply it to Sabbath or Sunday observance though, which it cannot not be referring to, Sunday keepers have been the far more guilty party pertaining to it. While Sabbath keepers have and do feel the conviction to tell the truth concerning continued Sabbath observance, they have not made human laws enforcing their day upon all as Sunday keepers have repeatedly done throughout history. Even persecuting those who would not keep their chosen day. Even now many wish for and are striving for laws forcing all to acknowledge their day of worship.
It is an absolutely legalistic view to try and say that only what is mentioned in the chapter is what Paul is talking about. He is talking about ALL disputable matters.
Including judging others over the what day they keep.
And, whats the point in saying "they do it worse!"? A childish one and one that can't be proven, actually. I have *never* heard Sabbath keepers treated with disgrace, but Sunday worshipers have been told they have the mark of the beast, are lost, aren't true Christ followers, etc.
Anyone who told Sunday keepers they have the mark of the beast lied. No one has the mark of the beast, until the beast forces worship and they decide to give in to the beast.
I said if Paul was referring to the seventh day Sabbath and the Sabbath Sunday issue, which he was definitely not, then Sunday keepers are the more guilty of the parties. They are the ones throughout history that have made and enforced Sundays laws whith real penalties for disobeying them. Go to the Sabbath, Sunday, and legalism thread on this SDA board and click the link to the non- SDA book about Sunday laws provided. You can read about Sunday laws and their penalties in that book, which book certainly is not an exhaustive source. If you would like more evidence, I will be happy to provide the same. Just ask.
As far as being told they are not true followers of Christ, this accusation has been around for a long time. No doubt used by both sides of the issue from ages past.
Pope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :
"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?." Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.
The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)
: MeMyself Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 16:41:22
: notreligus Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 15:17:52
I know some Seventh Day Adventists. The ones I know use their religion so they don't have to work on Saturday. And, I've never seen one honor the Sabbath when it actually starts, at sundown on Friday. They're out in the restaurants, malls, and theaters on Friday night causing many others to have to break the Sabbath they claim to honor.
Me too. While I have had a fun time at lunch with the ones I know on Saturday, after they get out from their church, it has often confused me...
You should ask them about it.
: Amo Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 14:34:42
: NorrinRadd Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 10:21:10
The downfall of many "Christians" has been and will be the desire to cling to holy days and other laws, and worse, to impose such strictures on others, showing themselves to be "severed from Christ" and inviting anathema.
The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)
Again, more applicable to Sunday keepers than Sabbath keepers. Attempting not only to force their day on others, but prevent others from keeping the seventh day sabbath by threatening them with being cut off from Christ. As though they or any ever had such power to do so.
I never quote Councils, Synods, Creeds, Confessions, etc., and place only marginal stock in such. FTR, I have no more respect for those who consider Sunday a "special" or "holy" day than I do for those still mired in Obsolete Covenant Sabbatarian legalism.
: NorrinRadd Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 17:25:33
: Amo Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 14:34:42
: NorrinRadd Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 10:21:10
The downfall of many "Christians" has been and will be the desire to cling to holy days and other laws, and worse, to impose such strictures on others, showing themselves to be "severed from Christ" and inviting anathema.
The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)
Again, more applicable to Sunday keepers than Sabbath keepers. Attempting not only to force their day on others, but prevent others from keeping the seventh day sabbath by threatening them with being cut off from Christ. As though they or any ever had such power to do so.
I never quote Councils, Synods, Creeds, Confessions, etc., and place only marginal stock in such. FTR, I have no more respect for those who consider Sunday a "special" or "holy" day than I do for those still mired in Obsolete Covenant Sabbatarian legalism.
Right. In the new covenant anything goes. I'm ok, your ok, don't worry be happy. God's law, obsolete. Never mind what that Jesus man said. That was long ago, and Paul told us otherwise. He straightened Jesus mistakes out.
: Amo Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 17:23:24
: MeMyself Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 16:41:22
: notreligus Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 15:17:52
I know some Seventh Day Adventists. The ones I know use their religion so they don't have to work on Saturday. And, I've never seen one honor the Sabbath when it actually starts, at sundown on Friday. They're out in the restaurants, malls, and theaters on Friday night causing many others to have to break the Sabbath they claim to honor.
Me too. While I have had a fun time at lunch with the ones I know on Saturday, after they get out from their church, it has often confused me...
You should ask them about it.
Good idea! I have had the same thought, but I am not able to come up with a way to do it that doesn't sound like I am accusing them of something or trying to trap them with an "A-HA!" question.
I am sincerely curious.
Any suggestions?
: MeMyself Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 17:35:57
: Amo Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 17:23:24
: MeMyself Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 16:41:22
: notreligus Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 15:17:52
I know some Seventh Day Adventists. The ones I know use their religion so they don't have to work on Saturday. And, I've never seen one honor the Sabbath when it actually starts, at sundown on Friday. They're out in the restaurants, malls, and theaters on Friday night causing many others to have to break the Sabbath they claim to honor.
Me too. While I have had a fun time at lunch with the ones I know on Saturday, after they get out from their church, it has often confused me...
You should ask them about it.
Good idea! I have had the same thought, but I am not able to come up with a way to do it that doesn't sound like I am accusing them of something or trying to trap them with an "A-HA!" question.
I am sincerely curious.
Any suggestions?
Surely you can ask them to clarify their views regarding the Sabbath without offending them, or putting them on the defense. I would hope they would consider it a good opportunity to share their convictions. Some SDA's are much more liberal than others concerning what should or should not be done on the Sabbath. If they are offended simply by you asking, that is their problem, not yours. Even if they think you are accusing or trying to trap them, they should have an answer for their faith. If not, maybe you will help them consider such.
: Amo Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 17:31:05
: NorrinRadd Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 17:25:33
: Amo Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 14:34:42
: NorrinRadd Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 10:21:10
The downfall of many "Christians" has been and will be the desire to cling to holy days and other laws, and worse, to impose such strictures on others, showing themselves to be "severed from Christ" and inviting anathema.
The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)
Again, more applicable to Sunday keepers than Sabbath keepers. Attempting not only to force their day on others, but prevent others from keeping the seventh day sabbath by threatening them with being cut off from Christ. As though they or any ever had such power to do so.
I never quote Councils, Synods, Creeds, Confessions, etc., and place only marginal stock in such. FTR, I have no more respect for those who consider Sunday a "special" or "holy" day than I do for those still mired in Obsolete Covenant Sabbatarian legalism.
Right. In the new covenant anything goes. I'm ok, your ok, don't worry be happy. God's law, obsolete. Never mind what that Jesus man said. That was long ago, and Paul told us otherwise. He straightened Jesus mistakes out.
I prefer to say that he built on the foundation Jesus laid. We may be going a bit off-topic, so I won't press the matter further unless you or someone else wishes to pursue it.
: NorrinRadd Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 20:26:22
: Amo Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 17:31:05
: NorrinRadd Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 17:25:33
: Amo Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 14:34:42
: NorrinRadd Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 10:21:10
The downfall of many "Christians" has been and will be the desire to cling to holy days and other laws, and worse, to impose such strictures on others, showing themselves to be "severed from Christ" and inviting anathema.
The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)
Again, more applicable to Sunday keepers than Sabbath keepers. Attempting not only to force their day on others, but prevent others from keeping the seventh day sabbath by threatening them with being cut off from Christ. As though they or any ever had such power to do so.
I never quote Councils, Synods, Creeds, Confessions, etc., and place only marginal stock in such. FTR, I have no more respect for those who consider Sunday a "special" or "holy" day than I do for those still mired in Obsolete Covenant Sabbatarian legalism.
Right. In the new covenant anything goes. I'm ok, your ok, don't worry be happy. God's law, obsolete. Never mind what that Jesus man said. That was long ago, and Paul told us otherwise. He straightened Jesus mistakes out.
I prefer to say that he built on the foundation Jesus laid. We may be going a bit off-topic, so I won't press the matter further unless you or someone else wishes to pursue it.
I certainly can agree that Paul and the other apostles built upon the foundation which is Jesus Christ. The problems begin when Paul's writings in particular, are used in a manner which blatantly contradicts plain and conclusive statements made by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is where I part ways with all such. The apostles were Holy Spirit filled and inspired men. Jesus Christ was, is, and always will be God. Though He freely surrendered such and became a man, and lived as a man for our salvation. Praise His pure, holy, and undefiled name. He is our God, and our brother.
1 Cor 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
In the study of God's word, the NT in particular, it is paramount to judge the words of the apostles themselves by the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, rather than the other way around. The latter leads to deception.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things,
which is the head, even Christ:
1 Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold,
I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.2 Jn 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon.
But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.Jesus Christ is the foundation. His teachings and doctrine are the foundation of the true church. Those who use the words of the apostles in a contradictory manner to the plain teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are wandering away from the foundation. They are not part of the temple of God.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.The SDA church believes the above words spoken by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We do not want to be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. We therefore judge the writings and teachings of Paul and the other apostles in the greater light of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Firmly beveling that it was not ever the apostles intention to teach or preach anything which blatantly contradicts a thus saith the Lord Jesus Christ, King of kings, and Lord of lords.
Question for SDA's:
Since the SDA church teaches that it is wrong or unbiblical for Christians to worship on Sunday, what scripture can you cite that teaches it is indeed wrong for Christians to worship God on Sunday?
: DMA Thu Mar 09, 2017 - 14:29:55
Question for SDA's:
Since the SDA church teaches that it is wrong or unbiblical for Christians to worship on Sunday, what scripture can you cite that teaches it is indeed wrong for Christians to worship God on Sunday?
Please do worship God every day, including Sunday. There is nothing wrong with worshiping God on Sunday, unless you think that day has replaced the sabbath. Doing so is simply unbiblical. Jesus addressed the core of this problem.
Matt 15:Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them,
Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free.
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.Mark 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups:
and many other such like things ye do.9 And he said unto them,
Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.It is one thing to form traditions, it is another to form traditions which contradict the commandments and testimony of the word of God. It is yet another still to enforce such traditions by human laws. There is nothing wrong with worshiping God on Sunday, save it is done in place of God's sanctified day, making the commandment and word of God of none effect by this man made tradition. Then, God forbid, forcing the same upon others as well.
Hi Amo,
So you would see no problem, scripturally speaking, for Christians to corporately worship God on Sunday?
Also, please check out my new thread where I flesh this question out more. It's entitled "Worshipping God on Sunday".
: DMA Fri Mar 10, 2017 - 09:15:38
Hi Amo,
So you would see no problem, scripturally speaking, for Christians to corporately worship God on Sunday?
Also, please check out my new thread where I flesh this question out more. It's entitled "Worshipping God on Sunday".
Strange thing, when using my regular computer, I'm unable to access these boards anymore. It says my account has been suspended. So I used my old computer and it got me here. Now I'm having problems posting, so I'm not sure what is going on, or if I will be able to post.
Starting a tradition of worshiping on Sunday is one thing, replacing the seventh day Sabbath with a first day Sabbath is another altogether. The latter is replacing a commandment of God, with the traditions of man.
: Amo Sat Mar 11, 2017 - 09:53:15
Strange thing, when using my regular computer, I'm unable to access these boards anymore. It says my account has been suspended. So I used my old computer and it got me here.
That was all of us Amo, you just happened to log in at just the right time.....coincidence.
: Alan Sat Mar 11, 2017 - 10:00:22
: Amo Sat Mar 11, 2017 - 09:53:15
Strange thing, when using my regular computer, I'm unable to access these boards anymore. It says my account has been suspended. So I used my old computer and it got me here.
That was all of us Amo, you just happened to log in at just the right time.....coincidence.
Good deal. My old computer is extremely slow.
: Amo Sat Mar 11, 2017 - 09:53:15
Starting a tradition of worshiping on Sunday is one thing, replacing the seventh day Sabbath with a first day Sabbath is another altogether. The latter is replacing a commandment of God, with the traditions of man.
We can continue this discussion under my thread here:http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/worshipping-god-on-sunday/ (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/worshipping-god-on-sunday/)
: Amo Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 14:28:18
: MeMyself Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 09:58:06
No, the downfall of many Christians is our defiant refusal to honor the call of Romans 14.
Its heartbreaking how many podiums of judgment we erect to stand and point fingers at others over, rather than being a place of humility; eager to show the grace that God so lavishes upon our own pitiful hearts.
I take it you are referring to the following.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
The Sabbath is not mentioned in the above verses. If we are to apply it to Sabbath or Sunday observance though, which it cannot not be referring to, Sunday keepers have been the far more guilty party pertaining to it. While Sabbath keepers have and do feel the conviction to tell the truth concerning continued Sabbath observance, they have not made human laws enforcing their day upon all as Sunday keepers have repeatedly done throughout history. Even persecuting those who would not keep their chosen day. Even now many wish for and are striving for laws forcing all to acknowledge their day of worship.
Colossians 2:16
16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or
in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the
sabbath days:
: Hobie Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 04:09:24
Since the scriptures are clear that no other day was made as the day of worship except the seventh day, and the Commandments show this with unblinking clarity to Christians. If they are fully aware that Sunday worship is not ordained by God or anywhere in the Bible or given by Christ or the apostles, and with full knowledge continue to transgress what is shown to them from scripture, will God wink at it, lets look at scripture......
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
It shows that God allows for mankinds ignorance, but we have Christians who are aware of the history of Sunday worship. Sunday was the established day of festival, a pagan day to the gods in the pagan world. Later, when these pagans professed Christianity, they gradually brought the practice of the pagan festivals on Sunday with them into the church, and the bishops looked the other way as long as they had 'converts' to show they were more influential or had more numbers than other bishops.
Now from scripture we see the people of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, including Jesus Christ Himself (e.g. Luke 4:16), observed the Sabbath. No where in the Bible, including after Christ's resurrection, will you find people observing the first day of the week, Sunday, as a replacement for the Sabbath.
Now, lets take a closer look at transgression, or what is inquity or sin, from scripture.
1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
If we look it is any thought, word or action, omission or desire, contrary to the law of God.(Rom.8:3) Sin in us has been condemned, thus when we come humbly to God and confess our wrong doing in repentance, the Father forgives and justifies us of all sin, which are the acts committed against His Law. So what does Gods Law written with His own finger say:
"8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11 (KJV)
And Christ Himself declares...
"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:17
If we choose to deny the sacrifice of Christ and continue to transgress Gods Law, and live knowingly in sin, there will be consequences. Jeremiah 5:25 says,"Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you."
So from scripture we can see that iniquity and sin really puts us in the domain of evil and the blessings of the Lord are withheld from us. We can see the consequences of iniquity all over the Bible, when Cain held on to the evil thoughts and we know the results, and when jealousy over a coat caused brothers to try to kill and they sell their own flesh and blood, and Judas selling out for 30 pieces of silver. The Bible is full of examples of people holding on to iniquity instead of trusting in the Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the great I AM, writer of the Law, Lord of the Sabbath, Christ our Lord, and the truth he brings.
But then if Christians stay with sin and iniquity, and knowingly continue in transgression and do not come humbly before God and admit and confess/repent the sin, but with full knowledge of it, hold on to it and do no let it go, what does Christ say to them.
Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So if Christians, knowing that Sunday is not the Sabbath, and knowing the Commandments show what is transgression or iniquity/sin, and clearly show what day is the Sabbath, continue to transgress what God commands, what will happen to them when Christ comes...
I think that this matter should not really be an issue, in the same sense that any matter as such with regards the flesh, as with food and drinks, or respect of days (including sabbath days), etc., should not be an issue.
So, I'd say that we should not judge one another on such matters, as with regards this matter of Sabbath days. Consider this scriptures: Rom. 14:13
Let us not therefore
judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.
After Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian. Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.
Consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.
Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.
Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or
in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the
sabbath days:
We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".
Having said that, one must be quick to note, that this is not saying that the Christian is not to fulfill the law. For in this regard, the scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
None of the ten commandments are addressed in the second chapter of Colossians. The ten commandments are not shadows of anything, we are admonished to keep them from one end of scripture to the other. The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out. Those who wish to place Paul's testimony in opposition to Christ's, claim he was speaking of the fourth commandment in the verses under examination.
The following verses are examples of the ceremonial sabbaths Israel was to keep that were separate from the sabbath of the fourth commandment. these are the sabbaths referred to by Paul in Col. 2.
Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. 32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
Leviticus 23:23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord......................
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. 33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,....................
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
: Amo Tue Mar 14, 2017 - 21:04:15
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
None of the ten commandments are addressed in the second chapter of Colossians. The ten commandments are not shadows of anything, we are admonished to keep them from one end of scripture to the other. The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out. Those who wish to place Paul's testimony in opposition to Christ's, claim he was speaking of the fourth commandment in the verses under examination.
The following verses are examples of the ceremonial sabbaths Israel was to keep that were separate from the sabbath of the fourth commandment. these are the sabbaths referred to by Paul in Col. 2.
Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. 32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
Leviticus 23:23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord......................
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. 33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,....................
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Amo<<The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out.>>
What I understand is that, your position with regards to the Sabbaths mentioned in Col.2 is that they are not referring to the sabbath of the fourth commandment by reason of verse 22.
May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians?
1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.
5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.
6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"
7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'
8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.
9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:
And Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so?
Finally, Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?
: Michael2012 Wed Mar 15, 2017 - 00:41:14
: Amo Tue Mar 14, 2017 - 21:04:15
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
None of the ten commandments are addressed in the second chapter of Colossians. The ten commandments are not shadows of anything, we are admonished to keep them from one end of scripture to the other. The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out. Those who wish to place Paul's testimony in opposition to Christ's, claim he was speaking of the fourth commandment in the verses under examination.
The following verses are examples of the ceremonial sabbaths Israel was to keep that were separate from the sabbath of the fourth commandment. these are the sabbaths referred to by Paul in Col. 2.
Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. 32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
Leviticus 23:23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord......................
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. 33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,....................
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Amo<<The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out.>>
What I understand is that, your position with regards to the Sabbaths mentioned in Col.2 is that they are not referring to the sabbath of the fourth commandment by reason of verse 22.
May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians?
1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.
5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.
6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"
7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'
8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.
9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:
And Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so?
Finally, Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?
The fourth commandment concerning the seventh day Sabbath is one of the ten spoken by the mouth of God Himself to the nation of Israel and written with His own finger twice in stone. No man can alter any of them but at the peril of their life. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ testified to this when here as one of us.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.The rest of the laws for the nation of Israel were written by the hand of man. Some were absolutely meant to be done away with after the establishment of the new covenant era and the opening of the blessings of God upon citizens of all nations of the earth by faith in Christ Jesus the Savior of humanity. This, as the OT itself prophesied.
Genesis 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation,
and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries;
and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.Isaiah speaks quite a bit about the salvation of the gentiles also. The seventh day Sabbath predates the Jews by two thousand years. It was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall. Perfect humanity created in the image of God were to observe the seventh day. It will also be kept in the new heaven and new earth after the judgment of this world according to Isaiah as well.
Isa 66:12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15
For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
The saints of God in these last days especially shall keep the commandments of God and have the faith and or testimony of Jesus. That is, they shall keep the commandments of God by the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
: Amo Sat Mar 18, 2017 - 15:05:42
: Michael2012 Wed Mar 15, 2017 - 00:41:14
: Amo Tue Mar 14, 2017 - 21:04:15
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
None of the ten commandments are addressed in the second chapter of Colossians. The ten commandments are not shadows of anything, we are admonished to keep them from one end of scripture to the other. The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out. Those who wish to place Paul's testimony in opposition to Christ's, claim he was speaking of the fourth commandment in the verses under examination.
The following verses are examples of the ceremonial sabbaths Israel was to keep that were separate from the sabbath of the fourth commandment. these are the sabbaths referred to by Paul in Col. 2.
Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. 32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
Leviticus 23:23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord......................
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. 33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,....................
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Amo<<The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out.>>
What I understand is that, your position with regards to the Sabbaths mentioned in Col.2 is that they are not referring to the sabbath of the fourth commandment by reason of verse 22.
May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians?
1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.
5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.
6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"
7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'
8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.
9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:
And Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so?
Finally, Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?
The fourth commandment concerning the seventh day Sabbath is one of the ten spoken by the mouth of God Himself to the nation of Israel and written with His own finger twice in stone. No man can alter any of them but at the peril of their life. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ testified to this when here as one of us.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The rest of the laws for the nation of Israel were written by the hand of man. Some were absolutely meant to be done away with after the establishment of the new covenant era and the opening of the blessings of God upon citizens of all nations of the earth by faith in Christ Jesus the Savior of humanity. This, as the OT itself prophesied.
Genesis 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Isaiah speaks quite a bit about the salvation of the gentiles also. The seventh day Sabbath predates the Jews by two thousand years. It was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall. Perfect humanity created in the image of God were to observe the seventh day. It will also be kept in the new heaven and new earth after the judgment of this world according to Isaiah as well.
Isa 66:12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
The saints of God in these last days especially shall keep the commandments of God and have the faith and or testimony of Jesus. That is, they shall keep the commandments of God by the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Amo,
Apparently you have not answered most of my questions as listed below. But if you have, I'm sorry, I don't quite get what they are. So, if you are kind enough, can you please first give a direct answer and if needed, you can go on and explain it.
1. May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians? (pls refer to the above discussion)
2. Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so? (pls refer to the above discussion)
3. Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath?
4. On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?
I'll be commenting on the rest of what you posted and on your reply to this at the same time. And so, please be kind enough to answer my simple questions. Thanks.
: Michael2012 Sun Mar 19, 2017 - 10:33:22
: Amo Sat Mar 18, 2017 - 15:05:42
: Michael2012 Wed Mar 15, 2017 - 00:41:14
: Amo Tue Mar 14, 2017 - 21:04:15
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
None of the ten commandments are addressed in the second chapter of Colossians. The ten commandments are not shadows of anything, we are admonished to keep them from one end of scripture to the other. The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out. Those who wish to place Paul's testimony in opposition to Christ's, claim he was speaking of the fourth commandment in the verses under examination.
The following verses are examples of the ceremonial sabbaths Israel was to keep that were separate from the sabbath of the fourth commandment. these are the sabbaths referred to by Paul in Col. 2.
Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. 32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
Leviticus 23:23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord......................
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. 33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,....................
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Amo<<The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out.>>
What I understand is that, your position with regards to the Sabbaths mentioned in Col.2 is that they are not referring to the sabbath of the fourth commandment by reason of verse 22.
May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians?
1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.
5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.
6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"
7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'
8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.
9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:
And Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so?
Finally, Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?
The fourth commandment concerning the seventh day Sabbath is one of the ten spoken by the mouth of God Himself to the nation of Israel and written with His own finger twice in stone. No man can alter any of them but at the peril of their life. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ testified to this when here as one of us.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The rest of the laws for the nation of Israel were written by the hand of man. Some were absolutely meant to be done away with after the establishment of the new covenant era and the opening of the blessings of God upon citizens of all nations of the earth by faith in Christ Jesus the Savior of humanity. This, as the OT itself prophesied.
Genesis 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Isaiah speaks quite a bit about the salvation of the gentiles also. The seventh day Sabbath predates the Jews by two thousand years. It was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall. Perfect humanity created in the image of God were to observe the seventh day. It will also be kept in the new heaven and new earth after the judgment of this world according to Isaiah as well.
Isa 66:12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
The saints of God in these last days especially shall keep the commandments of God and have the faith and or testimony of Jesus. That is, they shall keep the commandments of God by the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Amo,
Apparently you have not answered most of my questions as listed below. But if you have, I'm sorry, I don't quite get what they are. So, if you are kind enough, can you please first give a direct answer and if needed, you can go on and explain it.
1. May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians? (pls refer to the above discussion)
2. Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so? (pls refer to the above discussion)
3. Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath?
4. On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?
I'll be commenting on the rest of what you posted and on your reply to this at the same time. And so, please be kind enough to answer my simple questions. Thanks.
If you have a point to make, please make it. The ten commandments are God's commandments, just as the Sabbath is God's Sabbath. He calls both His many times over in scripture. God's commandments are for God's people. They are not for all the nations, since many nations do not claim to be His people. The New testament addresses many of the changes made concerning the laws given specifically to Israel, but it never addresses changes in the ten commandments. To the contrary, it repeatedly tells believers to keep God's commandments. Jesus Christ Himself when here as one of us made it perfectly clear that He did not come to change the commandments of God, and that they would not change until heaven and earth passed. Anyone who teaches otherwise contradicts the plain testimony of Jesus Christ who is the WORD OF GOD, King of kings, and Lord of lords.
: Amo Wed Mar 22, 2017 - 20:45:35
: Michael2012 Sun Mar 19, 2017 - 10:33:22
: Amo Sat Mar 18, 2017 - 15:05:42
: Michael2012 Wed Mar 15, 2017 - 00:41:14
: Amo Tue Mar 14, 2017 - 21:04:15
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
None of the ten commandments are addressed in the second chapter of Colossians. The ten commandments are not shadows of anything, we are admonished to keep them from one end of scripture to the other. The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out. Those who wish to place Paul's testimony in opposition to Christ's, claim he was speaking of the fourth commandment in the verses under examination.
The following verses are examples of the ceremonial sabbaths Israel was to keep that were separate from the sabbath of the fourth commandment. these are the sabbaths referred to by Paul in Col. 2.
Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. 32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
Leviticus 23:23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord......................
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. 33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,....................
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Amo<<The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out.>>
What I understand is that, your position with regards to the Sabbaths mentioned in Col.2 is that they are not referring to the sabbath of the fourth commandment by reason of verse 22.
May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians?
1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.
5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.
6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"
7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'
8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.
9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:
And Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so?
Finally, Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?
The fourth commandment concerning the seventh day Sabbath is one of the ten spoken by the mouth of God Himself to the nation of Israel and written with His own finger twice in stone. No man can alter any of them but at the peril of their life. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ testified to this when here as one of us.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The rest of the laws for the nation of Israel were written by the hand of man. Some were absolutely meant to be done away with after the establishment of the new covenant era and the opening of the blessings of God upon citizens of all nations of the earth by faith in Christ Jesus the Savior of humanity. This, as the OT itself prophesied.
Genesis 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Isaiah speaks quite a bit about the salvation of the gentiles also. The seventh day Sabbath predates the Jews by two thousand years. It was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall. Perfect humanity created in the image of God were to observe the seventh day. It will also be kept in the new heaven and new earth after the judgment of this world according to Isaiah as well.
Isa 66:12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
The saints of God in these last days especially shall keep the commandments of God and have the faith and or testimony of Jesus. That is, they shall keep the commandments of God by the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Amo,
Apparently you have not answered most of my questions as listed below. But if you have, I'm sorry, I don't quite get what they are. So, if you are kind enough, can you please first give a direct answer and if needed, you can go on and explain it.
1. May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians? (pls refer to the above discussion)
2. Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so? (pls refer to the above discussion)
3. Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath?
4. On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?
I'll be commenting on the rest of what you posted and on your reply to this at the same time. And so, please be kind enough to answer my simple questions. Thanks.
If you have a point to make, please make it. The ten commandments are God's commandments, just as the Sabbath is God's Sabbath. He calls both His many times over in scripture. God's commandments are for God's people. They are not for all the nations, since many nations do not claim to be His people. The New testament addresses many of the changes made concerning the laws given specifically to Israel, but it never addresses changes in the ten commandments. To the contrary, it repeatedly tells believers to keep God's commandments. Jesus Christ Himself when here as one of us made it perfectly clear that He did not come to change the commandments of God, and that they would not change until heaven and earth passed. Anyone who teaches otherwise contradicts the plain testimony of Jesus Christ who is the WORD OF GOD, King of kings, and Lord of lords.
Amo, it seems that you don't get the point of my questions. Let me try to bring them out here:
<<1. May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians? (pls refer to the above discussion)>>The commandments that are referred to here are here quoted:
1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.
5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.
6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"
7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'
8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.
9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:
These are commandments of God and not of man. They are God's commandments to the Jews, the Israelites. They were not given to the Gentiles nor to the Christians.
<<2. Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so? (pls refer to the above discussion)>>The ten commandments were given by God to the nation of Israel as testified by scriptures. It is not to all nations of the world.
You said and I quote:
The seventh day Sabbath predates the Jews by two thousand years. It was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall.
Please cite scriptures that speaks of the seventh day Sabbath was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall so I can examine it.
<<3. Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? >>If there is any, I'd like to examine it as well.
<<4. On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week? [/b]>>
Here are the scriptures I know:
Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
The ten commandments are for all who would be God's people in Christ Jesus, as the scriptures clearly point out. As the nation of Israel was also. Every sacrifice they offered represented their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The laws pertaining to the literal nation of Israel itself though, are another story. The New testament needs to be studied by all, to draw their proper conclusions regarding the same. The ceremonial laws pertaining to the temple and sacrifices are obviously no more, accepting perhaps their spiritual application, referred to on occasion by Paul. Other laws are also addressed in the NT.
The first day of the week in scripture is just that, the first day of the week. This is all it is ever called in scripture, because the writers of the NT gave the day no special significance or title to attribute to it. These things only developed later.
In response to sabbath day 4 th commandment
To rest and reflect on our future home in heaven when the curse of Adams work with sweat and labor will finally be lifted...
What is the meaning behind sabbath....
Hebrews 4:10-11
Ceased from labor is to enter into the rest of the great High Priest. JEsus knowing that He attoned for our sins....
Older saints ....my papa would keep sabbath strictly on Sunday...also there were laws 1800 s that forbid work on sundays
Did many things days... Change when roman constantine voted to have Christianity as romes religion???
Yes
Was saturday worship substitued at this time in 300ad for sunday worship??? Probably
Also easter substitute for passover...feast days
Many other things including the Shema ....dueteronomy 6:4
Here o Israel the Lord your God is one
Quoted every sbbath in synagoge..but not emphasized as much in gentile churches...that ther is 1 God
When the Jews were cut off around 100 ad because of there lack of faith we lost many things....
Romans 11:23. They can and will be grafted in again
Ephesians 2:20. The foundation was with the Jewish apstles and prophets
Gentiles have lost our original founders and with that many of their gifts and teachings over the last 1900 years........
At some time 10 gentiles will look to a Jew as their leaders again....zachariah 8:23
Also paul warns gentiles not to think that we are superior to jews and that we are not the root...and if we continue in pride God may cut us off also....romans 11:18-21
We can see europe is turning into paganism..because anti semtism abounds in europe even today....
and if we in America dont repent and pray for our Jewish brothers to be grafted back in we may also be cut off........
In conclusion i do not believe gentiles will be complete or unified until the Jews are grafted back in and resume their rightful position as the foudational leaders in the Church...
When the Jews are retored to Messiah many of these teachings will also be retored nd made clear......
: AmoThe first day of the week in scripture is just that, the first day of the week. This is all it is ever called in scripture, because the writers of the NT gave the day no special significance or title to attribute to it. These things only developed later.
And St. Justin the martyr [circa 150 AD] simply called it by its pagan name Sunday (no doubt because he was writing to the Roman government who were pagans at the time), attributing to it no special name or title. He does, however, attribute to it the special significance that it holds for Christians, and why they worship corporately together on it:
: St. Justin the martyr's First Apology, Chapter 67And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
: DMA Fri Apr 07, 2017 - 10:48:07
: AmoThe first day of the week in scripture is just that, the first day of the week. This is all it is ever called in scripture, because the writers of the NT gave the day no special significance or title to attribute to it. These things only developed later.
And St. Justin the martyr [circa 150 AD] simply called it by its pagan name Sunday (no doubt because he was writing to the Roman government who were pagans at the time), attributing to it no special name or title. He does, however, attribute to it the special significance that it holds for Christians, and why they worship corporately together on it:
: St. Justin the martyr's First Apology, Chapter 67And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
Yes, exactly as I have stated, scripture does not address Sunday sacredness because it did not develop until the apostles were gone. Sunday sacredness did not come to us through Christ or the apostles, but through some claiming to represent them after they were gone. Some continued to exalt the day according to the claimed authority of those who proposed it as the true church of Christ, others apposed it as contradicting scripture. The latter grew larger in number and eventually forced their own views upon all by law as they did many other things as well. This all being against the living example and teachings of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Let all who wish to do so follow Justin. I will follow the living example of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and His teachings along with those of the apostles.
: AmoLet all who wish to do so follow Justin. I will follow the living example of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and His teachings along with those of the apostles.
You're mistaken Amo. St. Justin wasn't espousing a new teaching as though he were trying to get followers for himself. He was describing the mode of worship of
the Church to the pagan Roman government he was writing to that was actively hunting Christians down to kill them. What St. Justin relates here is the normal daily and weekly practice of
the Church. St. Justin isn't making any of this up. He's telling the truth about
the Church that he was baptized, chrismated and communed into. Notice what he says regarding Christian baptism:
: St. Justin the Martyr, First Apology (circa 150 AD), Chapter 61
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:5) Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it. (Isaiah 1:16-20)
And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.
See how he uses the word "we" and not "I" to describe these things? He indicates that this is common Christian understanding and practice regarding baptism. This is the teaching and practice of
the Church. Notice what he says about the worship of
the Church:
: St. Justin the Martyr, First Apology (circa 150 AD), Chapters 65,66,67
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [literally Eucharist, meaning Thanksgiving], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood (Luke 22:19-20); and gave it to them alone...And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.
See how he merely relates what
the Church does? See how he isn't giving his own teachings here? St. Justin isn't interested in obtaining followers for himself as though he thought of himself as the Savior. On the contrary, he is simply telling a murderous pagan government what Christians actually believe and do, and that there is no justifiable reason why they should be persecuted and killed.
: AmoSunday sacredness did not come to us through Christ or the apostles, but through some claiming to represent them after they were gone.
St. Justin didn't claim that Sunday was sacred. He simply explained why Christians hold their common assembly on that day, namely because of the
sacredness of God beginning His creative work on that day, and the
sacredness of the Lord Jesus Christ rising from the dead on the same day. Traditionally speaking, Christians like St. Justin didn't think that the day Sunday was anymore holy than any other day. That's why you can search the Christian writings of the first centuries and not find a single reference to Sunday sacredness. What they believed was that there are holy events such as the Resurrection of Christ, which is of course the most holy event, and that meeting together on Sunday, the day it happened on, to commemorate it with the Eucharist (i.e. the Thanksgiving) was an appropriate thing to do. The Christians of St. Justin's time, much like today, would meet multiple times a week as they were able. We see this taught in the book of Acts:
: Acts 2:41-47Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need. So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
And we see it taught in the Didache (literally Teaching, an early Christian document used for teaching):
: Didache, Chapter 4And you shall seek out day by day the faces of the saints, in order that you may rest upon their words.
But since most were not able to meet daily, due to life's concerns, they would all attempt to meet together on a common day. And that day was Sunday for the reasons already given. This wasn't to say that the early Christians believed that Sunday was a Christian sabbath, which they certainly didn't. What they understood about the sabbath is something else entirely. They simply saw Sunday as an appropriate day to meet corporately upon due to them being Christians, i.e. followers of Jesus Christ whose holy and glorious resurrection occurred on that day. After all, without the resurrection of Christ from the dead there would be no Christian faith at all! In short, the Church of St. Justin's day did not consider Sunday to be any kind of replacement for the sabbath. And while there have been some individuals throughout the Church's life that have taught this (unfortunately), the Church, properly speaking, never has.
: DMA Tue Apr 11, 2017 - 11:06:57
: AmoLet all who wish to do so follow Justin. I will follow the living example of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and His teachings along with those of the apostles.
You're mistaken Amo. St. Justin wasn't espousing a new teaching as though he were trying to get followers for himself. He was describing the mode of worship of the Church to the pagan Roman government he was writing to that was actively hunting Christians down to kill them. What St. Justin relates here is the normal daily and weekly practice of the Church. St. Justin isn't making any of this up. He's telling the truth about the Church that he was baptized, chrismated and communed into. Notice what he says regarding Christian baptism:
: St. Justin the Martyr, First Apology (circa 150 AD), Chapter 61
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:5) Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it. (Isaiah 1:16-20)
And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.
See how he uses the word "we" and not "I" to describe these things? He indicates that this is common Christian understanding and practice regarding baptism. This is the teaching and practice of the Church. Notice what he says about the worship of the Church:
: St. Justin the Martyr, First Apology (circa 150 AD), Chapters 65,66,67
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [literally Eucharist, meaning Thanksgiving], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood (Luke 22:19-20); and gave it to them alone...And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.
See how he merely relates what the Church does? See how he isn't giving his own teachings here? St. Justin isn't interested in obtaining followers for himself as though he thought of himself as the Savior. On the contrary, he is simply telling a murderous pagan government what Christians actually believe and do, and that there is no justifiable reason why they should be persecuted and killed.
: AmoSunday sacredness did not come to us through Christ or the apostles, but through some claiming to represent them after they were gone.
St. Justin didn't claim that Sunday was sacred. He simply explained why Christians hold their common assembly on that day, namely because of the sacredness of God beginning His creative work on that day, and the sacredness of the Lord Jesus Christ rising from the dead on the same day. Traditionally speaking, Christians like St. Justin didn't think that the day Sunday was anymore holy than any other day. That's why you can search the Christian writings of the first centuries and not find a single reference to Sunday sacredness. What they believed was that there are holy events such as the Resurrection of Christ, which is of course the most holy event, and that meeting together on Sunday, the day it happened on, to commemorate it with the Eucharist (i.e. the Thanksgiving) was an appropriate thing to do. The Christians of St. Justin's time, much like today, would meet multiple times a week as they were able. We see this taught in the book of Acts:
: Acts 2:41-47Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need. So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
And we see it taught in the Didache (literally Teaching, an early Christian document used for teaching):
: Didache, Chapter 4And you shall seek out day by day the faces of the saints, in order that you may rest upon their words.
But since most were not able to meet daily, due to life's concerns, they would all attempt to meet together on a common day. And that day was Sunday for the reasons already given. This wasn't to say that the early Christians believed that Sunday was a Christian sabbath, which they certainly didn't. What they understood about the sabbath is something else entirely. They simply saw Sunday as an appropriate day to meet corporately upon due to them being Christians, i.e. followers of Jesus Christ whose holy and glorious resurrection occurred on that day. After all, without the resurrection of Christ from the dead there would be no Christian faith at all! In short, the Church of St. Justin's day did not consider Sunday to be any kind of replacement for the sabbath. And while there have been some individuals throughout the Church's life that have taught this (unfortunately), the Church, properly speaking, never has.
The problem with your above argument, is that the seventh day Sabbath was observed and continued to be observed by many Christians for centuries after Justin. He was not expressing the views or practices of many Christians of his time who also considered themselves the "church". While he may be one of your church fathers, I certainly do not consider him to be one. I am in agreement with those Christians who continued to keep the seventh day Sabbath as exemplified by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and according to His teachings as well. You are obviously in agreement with those who went the way of Justin, and today use the writings of Paul as above and in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ recorded in scripture. From what I have read written by Justin, he didn't seem to be very knowledgeable concerning the scriptures. The following quote presents a different view from Justin's held by Christians of old. I base my belief upon the scriptures though, rather than their testimony.
CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES
[EDITED, WITH NOTES, BY JAMES DONALDSON, D.D.]
BOOK 2
OF BISHOPS, PRESBYTERS, AND DEACONS
SECTION 4
ON THE MANAGEMENT OF THE RESOURCES
COLLECTED FOR THE SUPPORT OF THE CLERGY,
AND THE RELIEF OF THE POOR
THE RECITAL OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, AND AFTER WHAT MANNER THEY DO HERE PRESCRIBE TO US
XXXVI. Have before thine eyes the fear of God, and always remember the ten commandments of God, — to love the one and only Lord God with all thy strength; to give no heed to idols, or any other beings, as being lifeless gods, or irrational beings or daemons. Consider the manifold workmanship of God, which received its beginning through Christ.
Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands. Reject every unlawful lust, everything destructive to men, and all anger. Honor thy parents, as the authors of thy being. Love thy neighbor as thyself. Communicate the necessaries of-life to the needy. Avoid swearing falsely, and swearing often, and in vain; for thou shalt not be held guiltless. Do not appear before the priests empty, and offer thy free-will offerings continually.
ts a different view from Christians of long ago. I do not base my beliefs upon their statement though, but rather upon the scriptures themselves.
: CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES, Book 2, Section 4Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.
You quote the Apostolic Constitutions as though to show that it contradicts St. Justin's view of the sabbath. It doesn't! Read the above quote slowly, Amo. It says to observe the sabbath by meditation of the law, not in the idleness of the hands, i.e. by abstaining from work. This in no way supports your erroneous teaching of the sabbath and fully supports Justin's since he was never contrary to the meditation of the law, just of the legal requirement of not doing any work on the day.
And as for you thinking that St. Justin wasn't really knowledgeable of the scriptures, I'm sure you say that about everyone you disagree with. So nothing new there. I'd recommend that you read his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, as he does an admirable job of refuting the Jewish, and by extension the Adventist, arguments for the observance of the sabbath from the Old Testament alone. I'd recommend it, but you certainly wouldn't get anything out of it. At least, not in your present state of mind.
: AmoYou are obviously in agreement with those who went the way of Justin, and today use the writings of Paul as above and in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ recorded in scripture.
Here's a possibility you likely won't entertain: Perhaps they're not placing St. Paul above or in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ at all. Perhaps you perceive a contradiction because it is
you, and not them, that is misreading and misunderstanding the Lord Jesus. After all, the Jews misunderstood Jesus when He spoke of them destroying the temple and He would rebuild it in three days. They were certain about His teaching. You also seem certain about His teaching. Perhaps you're mistaken about His teaching as they were.
Like I said, it's a possibility that you likely won't entertain, but it's a possibility nonetheless.
: DMA Mon Apr 17, 2017 - 14:35:36
: CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES, Book 2, Section 4Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.
You quote the Apostolic Constitutions as though to show that it contradicts St. Justin's view of the sabbath. It doesn't! Read the above quote slowly, Amo. It says to observe the sabbath by meditation of the law, not in the idleness of the hands, i.e. by abstaining from work. This in no way supports your erroneous teaching of the sabbath and fully supports Justin's since he was never contrary to the meditation of the law, just of the legal requirement of not doing any work on the day.
And as for you thinking that St. Justin wasn't really knowledgeable of the scriptures, I'm sure you say that about everyone you disagree with. So nothing new there. I'd recommend that you read his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, as he does an admirable job of refuting the Jewish, and by extension the Adventist, arguments for the observance of the sabbath from the Old Testament alone. I'd recommend it, but you certainly wouldn't get anything out of it. At least, not in your present state of mind.
Yes, I understand your reading comprehension problems. You simply don't want to see what is plainly there when it doesn't support your argument. The quote begins with a command to observe the Sabbath which you are arguing no longer needs to be observed, and then refers to creation in relation to observing that command, which you have been arguing has nothing to do with the fourth commandment. None of which makes any sense, save for those who blatantly reject the plain testimony of scripture to begin with.
I have, and have read Justin's dialogue with Trypho the Jew. The reading of which is where I determined that Justin was apparently not very familiar with scripture. I have addressed this specific issue on these boards already in the past. I will find those posts, and repost them when I do.
: DMA Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 07:45:24
: AmoYou are obviously in agreement with those who went the way of Justin, and today use the writings of Paul as above and in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ recorded in scripture.
Here's a possibility you likely won't entertain: Perhaps they're not placing St. Paul above or in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ at all. Perhaps you perceive a contradiction because it is you, and not them, that is misreading and misunderstanding the Lord Jesus. After all, the Jews misunderstood Jesus when He spoke of them destroying the temple and He would rebuild it in three days. They were certain about His teaching. You also seem certain about His teaching. Perhaps you're mistaken about His teaching as they were.
Like I said, it's a possibility that you likely won't entertain, but it's a possibility nonetheless.
Anything is a possibility. Of course the fact that you are the one who absolutely will not look certain words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the face and ever address them, is highly suggestive that you must ignore the same in order to continue believing as you do. That being the case, it seems more likely that one who chooses to completely ignore certain testimonies of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, would also be the one who incorrectly understand His testimony. So let's try this again. Please explain the following words of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ relating to the commandments of God, and the fourth commandment which you redefined apart from scripture.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/sabbath-sunday-and-the-abomination-of-desolation/15/ (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/sabbath-sunday-and-the-abomination-of-desolation/15/)
I worship God every day. What makes Sunday special? Or not?
: Amo Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 11:12:42
: DMA Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 07:45:24
: AmoYou are obviously in agreement with those who went the way of Justin, and today use the writings of Paul as above and in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ recorded in scripture.
Here's a possibility you likely won't entertain: Perhaps they're not placing St. Paul above or in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ at all. Perhaps you perceive a contradiction because it is you, and not them, that is misreading and misunderstanding the Lord Jesus. After all, the Jews misunderstood Jesus when He spoke of them destroying the temple and He would rebuild it in three days. They were certain about His teaching. You also seem certain about His teaching. Perhaps you're mistaken about His teaching as they were.
Like I said, it's a possibility that you likely won't entertain, but it's a possibility nonetheless.
Anything is a possibility. Of course the fact that you are the one who absolutely will not look certain words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the face and ever address them, is highly suggestive that you must ignore the same in order to continue believing as you do. That being the case, it seems more likely that one who chooses to completely ignore certain testimonies of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, would also be the one who incorrectly understand His testimony. So let's try this again. Please explain the following words of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ relating to the commandments of God, and the fourth commandment which you redefined apart from scripture.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
In the scriptures you cited, I'd like to take you to verse 19 which says
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.It speaks of being in the Kingdom of heaven. Now what can you say of them who are called the
least in the kingdom of heaven and of them who are called
great in the kingdom of heaven?
Amo, I have been reading this back and forth discussion with
DMA and I must say that he has done an excellent job at meeting all of your points and you my friend have been on the on the defensive side way too much with very little AMMO~ ::eatingpopcorn:
I was referring to this thread:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/worshipping-god-on-sunday/
Amo,
I have posted sometime here and I think I have to post it again here and specifically address it to you, in as much as I think the matter of days such as of the Sunday worship or the Sabbath day has been an issue for you. Apparently, the matter of the Sabbath have successfully been placed on you by someone to be a stumblingblock to you. Here's what I've posted:
I think that this matter should not really be an issue, in the same sense that any matter as such with regards the flesh, as with food and drinks, or respect of days (including sabbath days), etc., should not be an issue.
So, I'd say that we should not judge one another on such matters, as with regards this matter of Sabbath days. Consider this scriptures: Rom. 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.
After Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian. Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.
Consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.
Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.
Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".
Having said that, one must be quick to note, that this is not saying that the Christian is not to fulfill the law. For in this regard, the scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.
: Michael2012 Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 05:39:08
: Amo Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 11:12:42
: DMA Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 07:45:24
: AmoYou are obviously in agreement with those who went the way of Justin, and today use the writings of Paul as above and in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ recorded in scripture.
Here's a possibility you likely won't entertain: Perhaps they're not placing St. Paul above or in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ at all. Perhaps you perceive a contradiction because it is you, and not them, that is misreading and misunderstanding the Lord Jesus. After all, the Jews misunderstood Jesus when He spoke of them destroying the temple and He would rebuild it in three days. They were certain about His teaching. You also seem certain about His teaching. Perhaps you're mistaken about His teaching as they were.
Like I said, it's a possibility that you likely won't entertain, but it's a possibility nonetheless.
Anything is a possibility. Of course the fact that you are the one who absolutely will not look certain words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the face and ever address them, is highly suggestive that you must ignore the same in order to continue believing as you do. That being the case, it seems more likely that one who chooses to completely ignore certain testimonies of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, would also be the one who incorrectly understand His testimony. So let's try this again. Please explain the following words of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ relating to the commandments of God, and the fourth commandment which you redefined apart from scripture.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
In the scriptures you cited, I'd like to take you to verse 19 which saysWhosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
It speaks of being in the Kingdom of heaven. Now what can you say of them who are called the least in the kingdom of heaven and of them who are called great in the kingdom of heaven?
It speaks of who will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, and who will be called great in the kingdom of heaven, not who is in heaven.
: RB Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 05:58:33
Amo, I have been reading this back and forth discussion with DMA and I must say that he has done an excellent job at meeting all of your points and you my friend have been on the on the defensive side way too much with very little AMMO~ ::eatingpopcorn:
I was referring to this thread: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/worshipping-god-on-sunday/
You are of course entitled to your opinion. In every debate, argument, or war, there is an offense and a defense. Neither is any indication of who is right or wrong. When one is attacked, they are on defense. When one is attacking, they are on offense. That is all. Either suits me just fine, and every Christian should be prepared to do both.
If you believe DMA is a good arguer, perhaps it is so. If you believe he or she is speaking or defending biblical truth, you are simply deceived as he or she is.
: Michael2012 Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 07:38:10
Amo,
I have posted sometime here and I think I have to post it again here and specifically address it to you, in as much as I think the matter of days such as of the Sunday worship or the Sabbath day has been an issue for you. Apparently, the matter of the Sabbath have successfully been placed on you by someone to be a stumblingblock to you. Here's what I've posted:
I think that this matter should not really be an issue, in the same sense that any matter as such with regards the flesh, as with food and drinks, or respect of days (including sabbath days), etc., should not be an issue.
So, I'd say that we should not judge one another on such matters, as with regards this matter of Sabbath days. Consider this scriptures: Rom. 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.
After Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian. Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.
Consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.
Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.
Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".
Having said that, one must be quick to note, that this is not saying that the Christian is not to fulfill the law. For in this regard, the scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.
Yes I know many think it should not be an issue. They are wrong as you are. God's commandments are an issue that every single soul will deal with at judgment when they stand directly in front of Him to answer for their beliefs, witness, and actions directly in relation to them. May God have mercy upon our souls and enlighten our clouded minds. The Sabbath of God has been an issue with God's people and their enemies from within and without unquestionably since Israel and no doubt before. It was an issue within Christianity from the very beginning, has continued to be an issue all throughout it's history, and will continue to be an issue to the very end. It will not go away but only increase in intensity. It will become a deciding factor in the final division of this worlds' crops before the Lord returns to harvest the same.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
The commandments of God and the difference between those who keep them and those who do not will be a major issue before Christ returns to reap the harvests of the earth.
: Michael2012 Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 07:38:10
Amo,
I have posted sometime here and I think I have to post it again here and specifically address it to you, in as much as I think the matter of days such as of the Sunday worship or the Sabbath day has been an issue for you. Apparently, the matter of the Sabbath have successfully been placed on you by someone to be a stumblingblock to you. Here's what I've posted:
I think that this matter should not really be an issue, in the same sense that any matter as such with regards the flesh, as with food and drinks, or respect of days (including sabbath days), etc., should not be an issue.
So, I'd say that we should not judge one another on such matters, as with regards this matter of Sabbath days. Consider this scriptures: Rom. 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.
After Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian. Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.
Consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.
Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.
Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".
Having said that, one must be quick to note, that this is not saying that the Christian is not to fulfill the law. For in this regard, the scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.
If it wasn't and should not be an issue, then there should not have been, nor should there be right now so very many Sunday laws on the books and enforced around the world. Not to mention the many efforts under way right now to bring them back in many places they have been removed. If you want to deny an issue taking place right in front of your face, go for it. I will not.
Amo, before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.
Do you agree with all that I said there?
Amo, after Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian. Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.
Do you agree with all that I said there?
Amo, consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.
Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.
Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".
Do you not agree that the Christian is not under the law of Moses?
Do you not agree that the law of Moses includes the law on the Sabbath?
Do you not agree that the Christian is not under the law, but under grace?
The scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.[/quote]
[/quote]
Do you not agree with that?
Do you agree that Love is the fulfilling of the law, which includes the ten commandments?
: Michael2012 Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 09:53:16
Amo, before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.
Do you agree with all that I said there?
Amo, after Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian. Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.
Do you agree with all that I said there?
Amo, consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.
Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.
Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".
Do you not agree that the Christian is not under the law of Moses?
Do you not agree that the law of Moses includes the law on the Sabbath?
Do you not agree that the Christian is not under the law, but under grace?
The scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.
[/quote]
Do you not agree with that?
Do you agree that Love is the fulfilling of the law, which includes the ten commandments?
[/quote]
It gets somewhat tiresome addressing the exact same questions over and over and over again. Give me a little time, I'll find some of the very numerous posts I have already posted addressing these very same issues, and re post them here for you.
: AmoThe quote begins with a command to observe the Sabbath
It does speak of observing the sabbath, but not in the same way Seventh-day Adventists talk about it. Notice again what it says:
: CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES, Book 2, Section 4it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.
In other words, what is being enjoined here is the contemplation of the scriptures and the Gospel of Christ, not of cessation of work as Adventists maintain is the keeping of the sabbath. This quote in no way supports your position. And it certainly isn't contrary to anything St. Justin said as he was never averse to the meditation of scripture. The fact is the Church has never taught Christians to keep the sabbath according to how the Seventh-day Adventists teach others to keep it by abstaining from work on that day. The Church has understood from the beginning that Christians are not under the law but under grace, as St. Paul taught. Try as you might, you won't find a single instance where the Church taught Christians otherwise.
: DMA Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 13:27:50
: AmoThe quote begins with a command to observe the Sabbath
It does speak of observing the sabbath, but not in the same way Seventh-day Adventists talk about it. Notice again what it says:
: CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES, Book 2, Section 4it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.[/b][/u]
In other words, what is being enjoined here is the contemplation of the scriptures and the Gospel of Christ, not of cessation of work as Adventists maintain is the keeping of the sabbath. This quote in no way supports your position. And it certainly isn't contrary to anything St. Justin said as he was never averse to the meditation of scripture. The fact is the Church has never taught Christians to keep the sabbath according to how the Seventh-day Adventists teach others to keep it by abstaining from work on that day. The Church has understood from the beginning that Christians are not under the law but under grace, as St. Paul taught. Try as you might, you won't find a single instance where the Church taught Christians otherwise.
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and did spend the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose." Dialogues on the Lord's Day. p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T. H. Morer.(church of England divine)
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East Church) three hundred years after the Saviour's death." A learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p.77.
"The seventh-day Sabbath was.. solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in a manner quite abolish the observation of it." Dissertation on the Lord's Day, pp.33,34,44.
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the Law, not for idleness of the hands." The Anti-Nicene Fathers, Vol.7, p 413, From Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, A document of the 3rd and 4th centuries.
"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." History of the Sabbath (original Spelling retained) Part 2, par. 5, pp. 73,74, London: 1636, Dr. Heylyn.
"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day..It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival..Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observation of the Jew's Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it. Sunday a Sabbath, John Ley, p.163 London 1640.
"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613
"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26, sec. 2, p.527.
"For although almost all Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath" It says : "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called 'the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Sacrates, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.
: Amo Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 10:26:08
: Michael2012 Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 09:53:16
Amo, before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.
Do you agree with all that I said there?
Amo, after Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian. Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.
Do you agree with all that I said there?
Amo, consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.
Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.
Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".
Do you not agree that the Christian is not under the law of Moses?
Do you not agree that the law of Moses includes the law on the Sabbath?
Do you not agree that the Christian is not under the law, but under grace?
The scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.
Do you not agree with that?
Do you agree that Love is the fulfilling of the law, which includes the ten commandments?
[/quote]
It gets somewhat tiresome addressing the exact same questions over and over and over again. Give me a little time, I'll find some of the very numerous posts I have already posted addressing these very same issues, and re post them here for you.
[/quote]
I'll wait then. Thanks.
: Amo"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and did spend the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose." Dialogues on the Lord's Day. p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T. H. Morer.(church of England divine)
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East Church) three hundred years after the Saviour's death." A learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p.77.
"The seventh-day Sabbath was.. solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in a manner quite abolish the observation of it." Dissertation on the Lord's Day, pp.33,34,44.
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the Law, not for idleness of the hands." The Anti-Nicene Fathers, Vol.7, p 413, From Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, A document of the 3rd and 4th centuries.
"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." History of the Sabbath (original Spelling retained) Part 2, par. 5, pp. 73,74, London: 1636, Dr. Heylyn.
"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day..It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival..Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observation of the Jew's Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it. Sunday a Sabbath, John Ley, p.163 London 1640.
"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613
"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26, sec. 2, p.527.
"For although almost all Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath" It says : "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called 'the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Sacrates, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.
And yet not one of those quotes you provided says that the Christians kept the sabbath in the way the Seventh-day Adventists believe it should be kept, i.e by doing no work on it. The Church has never had a problem with worshipping God on Saturday by having the liturgy on that day. You won't find anything contrary to that. What you will find in the Church's teaching is the condemnation of those who teach, like the Seventh-day Adventists, that Christians must keep the sabbath by doing no work on it as the law says or they're committing grave sin by doing so. This is called Judaizing, and it is condemned as heresy. None of the above quotes portray a Judaizing Church. They simply show a Church that respects the sabbath by worshipping God on Saturday.
I'll save you the time and effort and tell you that you won't find anything in the life and practice of the Church to support your Adventist doctrine of the sabbath. The Church, which received its doctrine from the Apostles, just isn't a Seventh-day Adventist Church.
: DMA Tue Apr 25, 2017 - 05:26:31
: Amo"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and did spend the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose." Dialogues on the Lord's Day. p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T. H. Morer.(church of England divine)
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East Church) three hundred years after the Saviour's death." A learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p.77.
"The seventh-day Sabbath was.. solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in a manner quite abolish the observation of it." Dissertation on the Lord's Day, pp.33,34,44.
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the Law, not for idleness of the hands." The Anti-Nicene Fathers, Vol.7, p 413, From Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, A document of the 3rd and 4th centuries.
"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." History of the Sabbath (original Spelling retained) Part 2, par. 5, pp. 73,74, London: 1636, Dr. Heylyn.
"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day..It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival..Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observation of the Jew's Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it. Sunday a Sabbath, John Ley, p.163 London 1640.
"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613
"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26, sec. 2, p.527.
"For although almost all Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath" It says : "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called 'the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Sacrates, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.
And yet not one of those quotes you provided says that the Christians kept the sabbath in the way the Seventh-day Adventists believe it should be kept, i.e by doing no work on it. The Church has never had a problem with worshipping God on Saturday by having the liturgy on that day. You won't find anything contrary to that. What you will find in the Church's teaching is the condemnation of those who teach, like the Seventh-day Adventists, that Christians must keep the sabbath by doing no work on it as the law says or they're committing grave sin by doing so. This is called Judaizing, and it is condemned as heresy. None of the above quotes portray a Judaizing Church. They simply show a Church that respects the sabbath by worshipping God on Saturday.
I'll save you the time and effort and tell you that you won't find anything in the life and practice of the Church to support your Adventist doctrine of the sabbath. The Church, which received its doctrine from the Apostles, just isn't a Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Seventh day Adventist don't even agree on how it should be kept. You have no idea whatsoever how all the Christians of the past observed the seventh day Sabbath. No doubt, many observed it according to the commandment, and others in varying degrees as apostasy increased. The very fact that many early Sunday laws specifically addressed not working on Sabbaths as Judaizing, reveals that many were still doing so which the apostate church was trying to stop. Neither Christ nor the apostles discouraged anyone from keeping the Sabbath. This came about through the great apostasy.
Ignatius, Barnabas and Justin, whose writings constitute our major source of information for the first half of the second century, witnessed and participated in the process of separation from Judaism which led the majority of the Christians to abandon the Sabbath and adopt Sunday as the new day of worship. Their testimonies therefore, coming from such an early period, assume a vital importance for our inquiry into the causes of the origin of Sunday observance (Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University- FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY: A HISTORICAL INVESTIGATION OF THE RISE OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY -Chapter 7 -ANTI-JUDAISM AND THE ORIGIN OF SUNDAY)
"Until well into the second century we do not find the slightest indication in our sources that Christians marked Sunday by any kind of abstention from work."--W. Rordorf, Sunday, p. 157.
North African half-heathen Christians who led out in Christian worship on Sunday, were also the first to call Jesus Christ the true Sun-god, and to direct their prayers toward the east--the rising sun--to rise early in the morning that they pray facing the sun as it arose. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD.) frequently called Christ the true Sun, and he urged the pagans to accept Him as such. Origen (c. 185-254) said, "Christ is the Sun of Justice; if the moon is united, which is the Church, it will be filled with His light." Cyprian (d. 258), Bishop of Carthage told believers "to pray at sunrise to commemorate the resurrection . . . and to pray at the setting of the sun . . . for the advent of Christ." "They took a much easier view of certain pagan customs, conventions and images and saw no objection, after ridding them of their pagan content, to adapting them to Christian thought."--J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.
"Cults of the sun, as we know from many sources, had attained great vogue during the second, third, and fourth centuries. Sun-worshipers indeed formed one of the big groups in that religious world in which Christianity was fighting for a place. Many of them became converts to Christianity . . . Worshipers in St. Peter's turned away from the altar and faced the door so that they could adore the rising sun."--Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, p. 192. [Dr. Laing(1869-1945) was a Canadian-born university professor and later dean at the University of Chicago].
It was the Roman Imperial plan on several occasions, to unite all religions of the Empire into one religion--sun-worship: "The Jewish, the Samaritan, even the Christian, were to be fused and recast into one great system, of which the sun was to be the central object of adoration."--Henry Hart Milman, The History of Christianity, bk. 2, chap. 8 (Vol. II, p. 175). [Dr. Milman (1791-1868) was an important historian of England and dean of St. Paul's Cathedral in London].
Though Sunday is mentioned in so many different ways during the second century, it is not till we come almost to the close of the second century that we find the first; instance in which it is called "Lord's day." Clement, of Alexandria, A.D. 194, uses this title with reference to "the eighth day." If he speaks of a natural day, he no doubt means Sunday. It is not certain, however, that he speaks of a natural day, for his explanation gives to the term an entirely different sense. THE HISTORY OF THE SABBATH by J.N. Andrews page 160
Tertullian, A.D. 200, is the next writer who uses the term "Lord's day." He
defines his meaning, and fixes the name upon the day of Christ's resurrection. Kitto says this is "the earliest authentic instance" in which the name is thus applied, and we have proved this true by actual examination of every writer, unless the reader can discover some reference to Sunday in Clement's mystical eighth day. Id page 162
Origen, A.D. 231, is the third of the ancient writers who call "the eighth day" the Lord's day. He was the disciple of Clement, the first writer who makes this application. It is not strange, therefore, that he should teach Clement's doctrine of a perpetual Lord's day, nor that he should state it even more distinctly than did Clement himself. Origen, having represented Paul as teaching that all days are alike, continues thus: — "If it be objected to us on this subject that we ourselves are accustomed to observe certain days, as for example the Lord's day, the Preparation, the Passover, or the Pentecost, I have to answer, that to the perfect Christian, who is ever in his thoughts, words, and deeds serving his natural Lord, God the Word, all his days are the Lord's, and he is always keeping the Lord's day." Against Celsus, book 8, chap. 29; Testimony of the Fathers, p. 87. Id page 165
The "Lord's day" of the Catholic church can be traced no nearer to John than A.D. 194, or perhaps, in strict truth, to A.D. 200, and those who then use the name show plainly that they did not believe it to be the Lord's day by apostolic appointment. To hide these fatal facts by seeming to trace the title back to Ignatius; the disciple of John, and thus to identify Sunday with the Lord's day of that apostle, a series of remarkable frauds has been committed, which we have had occasion to examine. But even could the Sunday Lord's day be traced to Ignatius, the disciple of John, it would then come no nearer being an apostolic institution than does the Catholic festival of the Passover, which can be traced to Polycarp, another of John's disciples, who claimed to have received it from John himself! Id pages 166and 167.
"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday. Perhaps at the end of the second century a false application of this kind had begun to take place; for men appear by that time to have considered laboring on Sunday as a sin." Neander's Church History, translated by H. J. Rose, p. 186.
The following is taken from The Great Empires of Prophecy by A. T. Jones. Pages 349-351 and 357-359.
" The next step in addition to this was the adoption of the day of the sun as a festival day. To such an extent were the forms of sun-worship practised in this apostasy, that before the close of the second century the heathen themselves charged these so-called Christians with worshiping the sun. A presbyter of the church of Carthage, then and now one of the "church fathers," who wrote about A.D. 200, considered it necessary to make a defense of the practice, which he did to the following effect in an address to the rulers and magistrates of the Roman Empire: — "Others, again, certainly with more information and greater verisimilitude, believe that the sun is our god. We shall be counted Persians perhaps, though we do not worship the orb of day painted on a piece of linen cloth, having himself everywhere in his own disk. The idea no doubt has originated from our being known to turn to the east in prayer. But you, many of you, also under pretense sometimes of worshiping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. In the same way, if we devote Sunday to rejoicing, from a far different reason than sun-worship, we have some resemblance to those of you who devote the day of Saturn to ease and luxury, though they too go far away from Jewish ways, of which indeed they are ignorant." — Tertullian "Apology," chap. 16.
And again in an address to all the heathen he justifies this practice by the argument, in effect, You do the same thing, you originated it too, therefore you have no right to blame us. In his own words his defense is as follows: —
"Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray toward the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshiping the heavenly bodies, likewise move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day, in preference to the preceding day, as the most suitable in the week for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and
banqueting." — Tertullian "Ad Nationes," book 1, chap. 13.
This accommodation was easily made, and all this practice was easily justified, by the perverse-minded teachers, in the perversion of such scriptures as, "The Lord God is a sun and shield," and, "Unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings." F456 As this custom spread, and through it such disciples were multiplied, the ambition of the bishop of Rome grew apace. It was in honor of the day of the sun that there was manifested the first attempt of the bishop of Rome to compel the obedience of all other bishops, and the fact that this attempt was made in such a cause, at the very time when these pretended Christians were openly accused by the heathen of worshiping the sun, is strongly suggestive.
From Rome there came now another addition to the sun-worshiping apostasy. The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate the Passover in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentiles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, —
the fourteenth of the first month. Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this celebration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years revolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday — the Sunday nearest to the fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year. And if the fourteenth day of that month should itself be a Sunday, then the celebration was not to be held on that day, but upon the next Sunday. One reason of this was not only to be as like the heathen as possible, but to be as un like the Jews as possible; this, in order not only to facilitate the "conversion" of the heathen by conforming to their customs, but also by pandering to their spirit of contempt and hatred of the Jews. It was upon this point that the bishop of Rome made his first open attempt at
Absolutism......................................................
"Accordingly, after having taken the advice of some foreign bishops, he wrote an imperious letter to the Asiatic prelates commanding them to imitate the example of the Western Christians with respect to the time of celebrating the festival of Easter. The Asiatics answered this lordly requisition by the pen of Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, who declared in their name, with great spirit and resolution, that they would by no means depart in this manner from the custom handed down to them by their ancestors. Upon this the thunder of excommunication began to roar. Victor, exasperated by this resolute answer of the Asiatic bishops, broke communion with them, pronounced them unworthy of the name of his brethren, and excluded them from all fellowship with the church of Rome."
— Mosheim "Ecclesiastical History," century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 11. Maclaine's
Translation................................................................
While this effort was being made on the side of philosophy to unite all religions, there was at the same time a like effort on the side of politics. It was the ambition of Elagabalus (A.D. 218-222) to make the worship of the sun supersede all other worship in Rome. It is further related of him that a more ambitious scheme even than this was in the emperor's mind; which was nothing less than the blending of all religions into one, of which "the sun was to be the central object of adoration." — Milman "History of Christianity" book 2, chap. 8, par. 22. But the elements were not yet fully prepared for such a fusion. Also the shortness of the reign of Elagabalus prevented any decided advancement toward success.
Alexander Severus (A.D. 222-225) held to the same idea, and carried it into effect so far as his individual practice was concerned. "The mother of Alexander Severus, the able, perhaps crafty and rapacious, Mammaea, had at least held intercourse with the Christians of Syria. She had conversed with the celebrated Origen, and listened to his exhortations, if without conversion, still not without respect. Alexander, though he had neither the religious education, the pontifical character, nor the dissolute manners of his predecessor, was a Syrian, with no hereditary attachment to the Roman form of paganism. He seems to have affected a kind of universalism: he paid decent respect to the gods of the Capitol; he held in honor the Egyptian worship, and enlarged the temples of His and Serapis. In his own palace, with respectful indifference, he enshrined, as it were, as his household deities, the representatives of the different religions or theophilosophic systems which were prevalent in the Roman Empire, — Orpheus, Abraham, Christ, and Apollonius of Tyana.... The homage of Alexander Severus may be a fair test of the general sentiment of the more intelligent heathen of his time." — Milman Id., book 2, chap. 8, par. 24. His reign also was too short to accomplish anything beyond his own individual example. But the same tendency went rapidly forward. On the side of philosophy and the apostasy, the progress was continuous and rapid."Heathenism, as interpreted by philosophy, almost found favor with some of the more moderate Christian apologists.... The Christians endeavored to enlist the earlier philosophers in their cause; they were scarcely content with asserting that the nobler Grecian philosophy might be designed to prepare the human mind for the reception of Christianity; they were almost inclined to endow these sages with a kind of prophetic foreknowledge of its more mysterious doctrines. 'I have explained,' says the Christian in Minucius Felix, 'the opinions of almost all the philosophers, whose most illustrious glory it is that they have worshiped one God, though under various names; so that one might suppose either that the Christians of the present day are philosophers, or that the philosophers of old were already Christians.' "These advances on the part of Christianity were more than met by paganism. The heathen religion, which prevailed at least among the more enlightened pagans during this period,... was almost as different from that of the older Greeks and Romans, or even that which prevailed at the commencement of the empire, as it was from Christianity.... On the great elementary principle of Christianity, the unity of the supreme God, this approximation had long been silently made. Celsus, in his celebrated controversy with Origen, asserts that this philosophical notion of the Deity is perfectly reconcilable with paganism." — Milman Id., par. 28."
The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantinebeing consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884
Here is the first Sunday Law decree of a Christian council. It was given about 16 years after Constantine's first Sunday Law of A.D. 321: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: "sabbato"--shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out ['anathema,'--excommunicated] from Christ."--Council of Laodicea, c. A.D. 337, Canon 29, quoted in C.J. Hefele, "A History of the Councils of the Church," Vol. 2, p. 316.
"Modern Christians who talk of keeping Sunday as a 'holy' day, as in the still extant 'Blue Laws,' of colonial America, should know that as a 'holy' day of rest and cessation from labor and amusements Sunday was unknown to Jesus . . . It formed no tenet [teaching] of the primitive Church and became 'sacred' only in the course of time. Outside the Church its observance was legalized for the Roman Empire through a series of decrees starting with the famous one of Constantine in 321, an edict due to his political and social ideas."--W, W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 257.
"The Church made a sacred day of Sunday . . . largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun;--for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance."-- Arthur Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," 1928, p. 145.
"Remains of the struggle [between the religion of Christianity and the religion of Mithraism] are found in two institutions adopted from its rival by Christianity in the fourth century, the two Mithraic sacred days: December 25, 'dies natalis solis' [birthday of the sun], as the birthday of Jesus,--and Sunday, 'the venerable day of the Sun,' as Constantine called it in his edict of 321."--Walter Woodburn Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," p. 60.
"This [Constantine's Sunday decree of March, 321] is the 'parent' Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church, in the hands of the papacy, enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments."--Walter W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 261.
"Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of religions. He would by all lawful and peaceable means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity . . . Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their Sun-god. . . [so they should now be combined."--H.G. Heggtveit, "illustreret Kirkehistorie," 1895, p. 202.
"If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be regarded in execration [cursing] of the Jews."--Pope Sylvester, quoted by S.R.E. Humbert, "Adversus Graecorum Calumnias," in J.P. Migne, "Patrologie," p. 143. [Sylvester (A.D. 314-337) was the pope at the time Constantine 1 was Emperor.]
As we have already noted, excepting for the Roman and Alexandrian Christians, the majority of Christians were observing the seventh-day Sabbath at least as late as the middle of the fifth century [A.D. 450]. The Roman and Alexandrian Christians were among those converted from heathenism. They began observing Sunday as a merry religious festival in honor of the Lord's resurrection, about the latter half of the second century A.D. However, they did not try to teach that the Lord or His apostles commanded it. In fact, no ecclesiastical writer before Eusebius of Caesarea in the fourth century even suggested that either Christ or His apostles instituted the observance of the first day of the week.
"These Gentile Christians of Rome and Alexandria began calling the first day of the week 'the Lord's day.' This was not difficult for the pagans of the Roman Empire who were steeped in sun worship to accept, because they [the pagans] referred to their sun-god as their 'Lord.' "--EM. Chalmers, "How Sunday Came Into the Christian Church," p. 3.
"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued."--Lyman Coleman, "Ancient Christianity Exemplified" chap. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.
"What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; and a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries, enjoined with increasing stringency abstinence from labor on Sunday."--Huttan Webster, "Rest Days," pp. 122-123, 210.
"A history of the problem shows that in some places, it was really only after some centuries that the Sabbath rest really was entirely abolished, and by that time the practice of observing a bodily rest on the Sunday had taken its place . . . It was the seventh day of the week which typified the rest of God after creation, and not the first day. "--Vincent Jo Kelly, Forbidden Sunday and Feast day Occupations, 1943, pp. 15, 22 [This Catholic University Press publication was written by a priest of the Redemptorist order].
"The early Christians had at first adopted the Jewish seven-day week with its numbered week days, but by the close of the third century A.D. this began to give way to the planetary week; and in the fourth and fifth centuries the pagan designations became generally accepted in the western half of Christendom. The use of the planetary names by Christians attests the growing influence of astrological speculations introduced by converts from paganism . . . During these same centuries the spread of Oriental solar [sun] worships, especially that of Mithra [Persian sun worship], in the Roman world, had already led to the substitution by pagans of dies Solis for dies Saturni, as the first day of the planetary week. Thus gradually a pagan institution was engrafted on Christianity."--Hutton Webster, Rest Days, pp. 220-221. [Webster (1875-?), was an author, historian, and professor at the University of Nebraska].
"The last day of the week was strictly kept in connection with that of the first day for a long time after the overthrow of the temple and its worship. Down even to the fifth century the Observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued." Coleman Ancient Christianity Exemplified, chap. 26, sec. 2.
"During the early ages of the church, it was never entitled 'the Sabbath,' this word being confined to the seventh day of the week, the Jewish Sabbath, which, as we have already said, continued to be observed for several centuries by the converts to Christianity." Anc. Christ. Exem., chap. 26, sec. 2.
"The observance of the Lord's day was ordered while yet the Sabbath of the Jews was continued; nor was the latter superseded until the former had acquired the same solemnity and importance which belonged, at first, to that great day which God originally ordained and blessed. But in time, after the Lord's day was fully established, the observance of the Sabbath of the Jews was gradually discontinued, and was finally denounced as heretical." Anc. Christ. Exem., chap. 26, sec. 2.
"The ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East church above three hundred years after our Savior's death; and besides that, no other day for more hundreds of years than I spake of before, was known in the church by the name of Sabbath but that: let the collection thereof and conclusion of all be this: The Sabbath of the seventh day, as touching the alligations of God's solemn worship to time, was ceremonial; that Sabbath was religiously observed in the East church three hundred years and more after our Savior's passion. That church, being the great part of Christendom, and having the apostles' doctrine and example to instruct them, would have restrained it if it had been deadly." Edward Brerewood, professor in Gresham College, London . Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77, Oxford, 1631.
And Sir Win. Domville says: —
"Centuries of the Christian era passed away before the Sunday was observed by the Christian church as a Sabbath. History does not furnish us with a single proof or indication that it was at any time so observed previous to the Sabbatical edict of Constantine in A.D. 321." Examination of the Six Texts, p. 291.
"Our observance of Sunday as the Lord's day is apparently derived from Mithraism. The argument that has sometimes been used against this claim, namely, that Sunday was chosen because of the resurrection on that day, is not well supported." Gordon J. Laing, "Survivals of Roman Religion," p. 148.
: AmoSeventh day Adventist don't even agree on how it should be kept.
But Amo, you said to me the following about the 4th commandment:
: AmoThis isn't rocket science, or some amazingly complex decision or choice. One either observes the above command in and by faith in the word of God or they don't. There is no accidentally observing it, or not observing it. If the issue of this command becomes increasingly cloudy and complex, this is humanities doing, not God's. It is a simple command and issue.
And,
: Amojust as obvious, rest is rest, and work is work.
If it's so simple and obvious, as you suggest, then why wouldn't the so-called remnant church of God agree on how it should be kept? And if the so-called remnant church can't even agree on how the sabbath should be kept, then perhaps you're in error about it yourself. After all, what makes you right and your fellow Adventists wrong on this? Maybe what I and others on here have been trying to tell you is the truth, but you only think it's a lie because of your own faulty misunderstanding of how the sabbath should be kept by Christians.
: AmoThe very fact that many early Sunday laws specifically addressed not working on Sabbaths as Judaizing, reveals that many were still doing so which the apostate church was trying to stop.
Many early Sunday laws? What are these "Sunday laws" you speak of? Perhaps Constantine non-religious Sunday law of AD 321? Or perhaps the anti-Judaistic practice of Christians canon promulgated by the council of Laodicea in AD 363-64? What are these "many early Sunday laws" that you speak of that prove the existence of a wide-spread Christian Judaistic observance of the sabbath?
Also, your use of the term "apostate church". I see you're still holding to your erroneous view of 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4, Amo. Question: How did the Church turn apostate when Jesus promised it wouldn't be overcome by corruption (cf. Matthew 16:18)? Was Jesus wrong, or worse lying about keeping His historic Church free from corruption? Another question: If St. Paul was speaking of the Church in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, then why didn't he use the Greek word for Church in the entire passage? Something as important as the apostasy of the historic Church, you think he'd specify what he was talking about. Or perhaps he did with the words "temple of God" which you're misinterpreting to be a reference to Christ's historic Church.
: AmoIgnatius, Barnabas and Justin, whose writings constitute our major source of information for the first half of the second century, witnessed and participated in the process of separation from Judaism which led the majority of the Christians to abandon the Sabbath and adopt Sunday as the new day of worship. Their testimonies therefore, coming from such an early period, assume a vital importance for our inquiry into the causes of the origin of Sunday observance (Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University- FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY: A HISTORICAL INVESTIGATION OF THE RISE OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY -Chapter 7 -ANTI-JUDAISM AND THE ORIGIN OF SUNDAY)
"Until well into the second century we do not find the slightest indication in our sources that Christians marked Sunday by any kind of abstention from work."--W. Rordorf, Sunday, p. 157.
North African half-heathen Christians who led out in Christian worship on Sunday, were also the first to call Jesus Christ the true Sun-god, and to direct their prayers toward the east--the rising sun--to rise early in the morning that they pray facing the sun as it arose. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD.) frequently called Christ the true Sun, and he urged the pagans to accept Him as such. Origen (c. 185-254) said, "Christ is the Sun of Justice; if the moon is united, which is the Church, it will be filled with His light." Cyprian (d. 258), Bishop of Carthage told believers "to pray at sunrise to commemorate the resurrection . . . and to pray at the setting of the sun . . . for the advent of Christ." "They took a much easier view of certain pagan customs, conventions and images and saw no objection, after ridding them of their pagan content, to adapting them to Christian thought."--J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.
"Cults of the sun, as we know from many sources, had attained great vogue during the second, third, and fourth centuries. Sun-worshipers indeed formed one of the big groups in that religious world in which Christianity was fighting for a place. Many of them became converts to Christianity . . . Worshipers in St. Peter's turned away from the altar and faced the door so that they could adore the rising sun."--Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, p. 192. [Dr. Laing(1869-1945) was a Canadian-born university professor and later dean at the University of Chicago].
It was the Roman Imperial plan on several occasions, to unite all religions of the Empire into one religion--sun-worship: "The Jewish, the Samaritan, even the Christian, were to be fused and recast into one great system, of which the sun was to be the central object of adoration."--Henry Hart Milman, The History of Christianity, bk. 2, chap. 8 (Vol. II, p. 175). [Dr. Milman (1791-1868) was an important historian of England and dean of St. Paul's Cathedral in London].
Though Sunday is mentioned in so many different ways during the second century, it is not till we come almost to the close of the second century that we find the first; instance in which it is called "Lord's day." Clement, of Alexandria, A.D. 194, uses this title with reference to "the eighth day." If he speaks of a natural day, he no doubt means Sunday. It is not certain, however, that he speaks of a natural day, for his explanation gives to the term an entirely different sense. THE HISTORY OF THE SABBATH by J.N. Andrews page 160
Tertullian, A.D. 200, is the next writer who uses the term "Lord's day." He
defines his meaning, and fixes the name upon the day of Christ's resurrection. Kitto says this is "the earliest authentic instance" in which the name is thus applied, and we have proved this true by actual examination of every writer, unless the reader can discover some reference to Sunday in Clement's mystical eighth day. Id page 162
Origen, A.D. 231, is the third of the ancient writers who call "the eighth day" the Lord's day. He was the disciple of Clement, the first writer who makes this application. It is not strange, therefore, that he should teach Clement's doctrine of a perpetual Lord's day, nor that he should state it even more distinctly than did Clement himself. Origen, having represented Paul as teaching that all days are alike, continues thus: — "If it be objected to us on this subject that we ourselves are accustomed to observe certain days, as for example the Lord's day, the Preparation, the Passover, or the Pentecost, I have to answer, that to the perfect Christian, who is ever in his thoughts, words, and deeds serving his natural Lord, God the Word, all his days are the Lord's, and he is always keeping the Lord's day." Against Celsus, book 8, chap. 29; Testimony of the Fathers, p. 87. Id page 165
The "Lord's day" of the Catholic church can be traced no nearer to John than A.D. 194, or perhaps, in strict truth, to A.D. 200, and those who then use the name show plainly that they did not believe it to be the Lord's day by apostolic appointment. To hide these fatal facts by seeming to trace the title back to Ignatius; the disciple of John, and thus to identify Sunday with the Lord's day of that apostle, a series of remarkable frauds has been committed, which we have had occasion to examine. But even could the Sunday Lord's day be traced to Ignatius, the disciple of John, it would then come no nearer being an apostolic institution than does the Catholic festival of the Passover, which can be traced to Polycarp, another of John's disciples, who claimed to have received it from John himself! Id pages 166and 167.
"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday. Perhaps at the end of the second century a false application of this kind had begun to take place; for men appear by that time to have considered laboring on Sunday as a sin." Neander's Church History, translated by H. J. Rose, p. 186.
The following is taken from The Great Empires of Prophecy by A. T. Jones. Pages 349-351 and 357-359.
" The next step in addition to this was the adoption of the day of the sun as a festival day. To such an extent were the forms of sun-worship practised in this apostasy, that before the close of the second century the heathen themselves charged these so-called Christians with worshiping the sun. A presbyter of the church of Carthage, then and now one of the "church fathers," who wrote about A.D. 200, considered it necessary to make a defense of the practice, which he did to the following effect in an address to the rulers and magistrates of the Roman Empire: — "Others, again, certainly with more information and greater verisimilitude, believe that the sun is our god. We shall be counted Persians perhaps, though we do not worship the orb of day painted on a piece of linen cloth, having himself everywhere in his own disk. The idea no doubt has originated from our being known to turn to the east in prayer. But you, many of you, also under pretense sometimes of worshiping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. In the same way, if we devote Sunday to rejoicing, from a far different reason than sun-worship, we have some resemblance to those of you who devote the day of Saturn to ease and luxury, though they too go far away from Jewish ways, of which indeed they are ignorant." — Tertullian "Apology," chap. 16.
And again in an address to all the heathen he justifies this practice by the argument, in effect, You do the same thing, you originated it too, therefore you have no right to blame us. In his own words his defense is as follows: —
"Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray toward the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshiping the heavenly bodies, likewise move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day, in preference to the preceding day, as the most suitable in the week for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and
banqueting." — Tertullian "Ad Nationes," book 1, chap. 13.
This accommodation was easily made, and all this practice was easily justified, by the perverse-minded teachers, in the perversion of such scriptures as, "The Lord God is a sun and shield," and, "Unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings." F456 As this custom spread, and through it such disciples were multiplied, the ambition of the bishop of Rome grew apace. It was in honor of the day of the sun that there was manifested the first attempt of the bishop of Rome to compel the obedience of all other bishops, and the fact that this attempt was made in such a cause, at the very time when these pretended Christians were openly accused by the heathen of worshiping the sun, is strongly suggestive.
From Rome there came now another addition to the sun-worshiping apostasy. The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate the Passover in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentiles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, —
the fourteenth of the first month. Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this celebration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years revolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday — the Sunday nearest to the fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year. And if the fourteenth day of that month should itself be a Sunday, then the celebration was not to be held on that day, but upon the next Sunday. One reason of this was not only to be as like the heathen as possible, but to be as un like the Jews as possible; this, in order not only to facilitate the "conversion" of the heathen by conforming to their customs, but also by pandering to their spirit of contempt and hatred of the Jews. It was upon this point that the bishop of Rome made his first open attempt at
Absolutism......................................................
"Accordingly, after having taken the advice of some foreign bishops, he wrote an imperious letter to the Asiatic prelates commanding them to imitate the example of the Western Christians with respect to the time of celebrating the festival of Easter. The Asiatics answered this lordly requisition by the pen of Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, who declared in their name, with great spirit and resolution, that they would by no means depart in this manner from the custom handed down to them by their ancestors. Upon this the thunder of excommunication began to roar. Victor, exasperated by this resolute answer of the Asiatic bishops, broke communion with them, pronounced them unworthy of the name of his brethren, and excluded them from all fellowship with the church of Rome."
— Mosheim "Ecclesiastical History," century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 11. Maclaine's
Translation................................................................
While this effort was being made on the side of philosophy to unite all religions, there was at the same time a like effort on the side of politics. It was the ambition of Elagabalus (A.D. 218-222) to make the worship of the sun supersede all other worship in Rome. It is further related of him that a more ambitious scheme even than this was in the emperor's mind; which was nothing less than the blending of all religions into one, of which "the sun was to be the central object of adoration." — Milman "History of Christianity" book 2, chap. 8, par. 22. But the elements were not yet fully prepared for such a fusion. Also the shortness of the reign of Elagabalus prevented any decided advancement toward success.
Alexander Severus (A.D. 222-225) held to the same idea, and carried it into effect so far as his individual practice was concerned. "The mother of Alexander Severus, the able, perhaps crafty and rapacious, Mammaea, had at least held intercourse with the Christians of Syria. She had conversed with the celebrated Origen, and listened to his exhortations, if without conversion, still not without respect. Alexander, though he had neither the religious education, the pontifical character, nor the dissolute manners of his predecessor, was a Syrian, with no hereditary attachment to the Roman form of paganism. He seems to have affected a kind of universalism: he paid decent respect to the gods of the Capitol; he held in honor the Egyptian worship, and enlarged the temples of His and Serapis. In his own palace, with respectful indifference, he enshrined, as it were, as his household deities, the representatives of the different religions or theophilosophic systems which were prevalent in the Roman Empire, — Orpheus, Abraham, Christ, and Apollonius of Tyana.... The homage of Alexander Severus may be a fair test of the general sentiment of the more intelligent heathen of his time." — Milman Id., book 2, chap. 8, par. 24. His reign also was too short to accomplish anything beyond his own individual example. But the same tendency went rapidly forward. On the side of philosophy and the apostasy, the progress was continuous and rapid."Heathenism, as interpreted by philosophy, almost found favor with some of the more moderate Christian apologists.... The Christians endeavored to enlist the earlier philosophers in their cause; they were scarcely content with asserting that the nobler Grecian philosophy might be designed to prepare the human mind for the reception of Christianity; they were almost inclined to endow these sages with a kind of prophetic foreknowledge of its more mysterious doctrines. 'I have explained,' says the Christian in Minucius Felix, 'the opinions of almost all the philosophers, whose most illustrious glory it is that they have worshiped one God, though under various names; so that one might suppose either that the Christians of the present day are philosophers, or that the philosophers of old were already Christians.' "These advances on the part of Christianity were more than met by paganism. The heathen religion, which prevailed at least among the more enlightened pagans during this period,... was almost as different from that of the older Greeks and Romans, or even that which prevailed at the commencement of the empire, as it was from Christianity.... On the great elementary principle of Christianity, the unity of the supreme God, this approximation had long been silently made. Celsus, in his celebrated controversy with Origen, asserts that this philosophical notion of the Deity is perfectly reconcilable with paganism." — Milman Id., par. 28."
The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantinebeing consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884
Here is the first Sunday Law decree of a Christian council. It was given about 16 years after Constantine's first Sunday Law of A.D. 321: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: "sabbato"--shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out ['anathema,'--excommunicated] from Christ."--Council of Laodicea, c. A.D. 337, Canon 29, quoted in C.J. Hefele, "A History of the Councils of the Church," Vol. 2, p. 316.
"Modern Christians who talk of keeping Sunday as a 'holy' day, as in the still extant 'Blue Laws,' of colonial America, should know that as a 'holy' day of rest and cessation from labor and amusements Sunday was unknown to Jesus . . . It formed no tenet [teaching] of the primitive Church and became 'sacred' only in the course of time. Outside the Church its observance was legalized for the Roman Empire through a series of decrees starting with the famous one of Constantine in 321, an edict due to his political and social ideas."--W, W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 257.
"The Church made a sacred day of Sunday . . . largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun;--for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance."-- Arthur Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," 1928, p. 145.
"Remains of the struggle [between the religion of Christianity and the religion of Mithraism] are found in two institutions adopted from its rival by Christianity in the fourth century, the two Mithraic sacred days: December 25, 'dies natalis solis' [birthday of the sun], as the birthday of Jesus,--and Sunday, 'the venerable day of the Sun,' as Constantine called it in his edict of 321."--Walter Woodburn Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," p. 60.
"This [Constantine's Sunday decree of March, 321] is the 'parent' Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church, in the hands of the papacy, enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments."--Walter W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 261.
"Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of religions. He would by all lawful and peaceable means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity . . . Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their Sun-god. . . [so they should now be combined."--H.G. Heggtveit, "illustreret Kirkehistorie," 1895, p. 202.
"If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be regarded in execration [cursing] of the Jews."--Pope Sylvester, quoted by S.R.E. Humbert, "Adversus Graecorum Calumnias," in J.P. Migne, "Patrologie," p. 143. [Sylvester (A.D. 314-337) was the pope at the time Constantine 1 was Emperor.]
As we have already noted, excepting for the Roman and Alexandrian Christians, the majority of Christians were observing the seventh-day Sabbath at least as late as the middle of the fifth century [A.D. 450]. The Roman and Alexandrian Christians were among those converted from heathenism. They began observing Sunday as a merry religious festival in honor of the Lord's resurrection, about the latter half of the second century A.D. However, they did not try to teach that the Lord or His apostles commanded it. In fact, no ecclesiastical writer before Eusebius of Caesarea in the fourth century even suggested that either Christ or His apostles instituted the observance of the first day of the week.
"These Gentile Christians of Rome and Alexandria began calling the first day of the week 'the Lord's day.' This was not difficult for the pagans of the Roman Empire who were steeped in sun worship to accept, because they [the pagans] referred to their sun-god as their 'Lord.' "--EM. Chalmers, "How Sunday Came Into the Christian Church," p. 3.
"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued."--Lyman Coleman, "Ancient Christianity Exemplified" chap. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.
"What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; and a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries, enjoined with increasing stringency abstinence from labor on Sunday."--Huttan Webster, "Rest Days," pp. 122-123, 210.
"A history of the problem shows that in some places, it was really only after some centuries that the Sabbath rest really was entirely abolished, and by that time the practice of observing a bodily rest on the Sunday had taken its place . . . It was the seventh day of the week which typified the rest of God after creation, and not the first day. "--Vincent Jo Kelly, Forbidden Sunday and Feast day Occupations, 1943, pp. 15, 22 [This Catholic University Press publication was written by a priest of the Redemptorist order].
"The early Christians had at first adopted the Jewish seven-day week with its numbered week days, but by the close of the third century A.D. this began to give way to the planetary week; and in the fourth and fifth centuries the pagan designations became generally accepted in the western half of Christendom. The use of the planetary names by Christians attests the growing influence of astrological speculations introduced by converts from paganism . . . During these same centuries the spread of Oriental solar [sun] worships, especially that of Mithra [Persian sun worship], in the Roman world, had already led to the substitution by pagans of dies Solis for dies Saturni, as the first day of the planetary week. Thus gradually a pagan institution was engrafted on Christianity."--Hutton Webster, Rest Days, pp. 220-221. [Webster (1875-?), was an author, historian, and professor at the University of Nebraska].
"The last day of the week was strictly kept in connection with that of the first day for a long time after the overthrow of the temple and its worship. Down even to the fifth century the Observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued." Coleman Ancient Christianity Exemplified, chap. 26, sec. 2.
"During the early ages of the church, it was never entitled 'the Sabbath,' this word being confined to the seventh day of the week, the Jewish Sabbath, which, as we have already said, continued to be observed for several centuries by the converts to Christianity." Anc. Christ. Exem., chap. 26, sec. 2.
"The observance of the Lord's day was ordered while yet the Sabbath of the Jews was continued; nor was the latter superseded until the former had acquired the same solemnity and importance which belonged, at first, to that great day which God originally ordained and blessed. But in time, after the Lord's day was fully established, the observance of the Sabbath of the Jews was gradually discontinued, and was finally denounced as heretical." Anc. Christ. Exem., chap. 26, sec. 2.
"The ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East church above three hundred years after our Savior's death; and besides that, no other day for more hundreds of years than I spake of before, was known in the church by the name of Sabbath but that: let the collection thereof and conclusion of all be this: The Sabbath of the seventh day, as touching the alligations of God's solemn worship to time, was ceremonial; that Sabbath was religiously observed in the East church three hundred years and more after our Savior's passion. That church, being the great part of Christendom, and having the apostles' doctrine and example to instruct them, would have restrained it if it had been deadly." Edward Brerewood, professor in Gresham College, London . Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77, Oxford, 1631.
And Sir Win. Domville says: —
"Centuries of the Christian era passed away before the Sunday was observed by the Christian church as a Sabbath. History does not furnish us with a single proof or indication that it was at any time so observed previous to the Sabbatical edict of Constantine in A.D. 321." Examination of the Six Texts, p. 291.
"Our observance of Sunday as the Lord's day is apparently derived from Mithraism. The argument that has sometimes been used against this claim, namely, that Sunday was chosen because of the resurrection on that day, is not well supported." Gordon J. Laing, "Survivals of Roman Religion," p. 148.
And what, pray tell, are all of these quotes meant to prove? Or are we simply supposed to be impressed with your copy and paste abilities?
There are 2 Sabbaths as there are 2 laws...or 2 covenants
an 1. earthly Sabbath only vs.. a 2. heavenly Sabbath
2 Laws or covenants
1 written on tablets of stone...2 corinthians 3:7 ...ministry of death engraved on stones
2 written on the heart by the Spirit....2 corinthians 3:3 by the Spirit of God not on tablets of stone but on...heart
2 sabbaths
1st sabbath -given in the beginnning and kept by Moses and joshua...Hebrews 4:8
written with ink and stones......2 corinthians 3:6 letter kills but the Spirit gives life
2nd or Last Sabbath - fulfilled in Christ....Matthew 12:8.....for the son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath
For if Joshua had given them rest he would not have spoken of another day...there remains a Sabbath-rest of the people of God.
If you find Jesus you enter into the rest of God that was prophesied from the beginning......
Hebrews 4:11-12 let us thereefore be diligent to enter that rest.........This is the 2nd sabbath
If you keep the 1st sabbath in the letter and fail to see Christ as the fulfillment you are missing His heavenly rest..
as of the Jews today in umbelief.....
However if you only look to see Jesus as the end of the law and the end of the Sabbath and do not keep the earthly Sabbath you are missing many earthly and Spiritual blessings.....
Romans 7:14 the Law is Spiritual
and theerfore the Law must be Spiritually discerned with Christ as the cornenerstone...
Blessings for keeping the earthly Sabbath
- gives Spiritual and physical rest
- time to reflect on our heavenly home when the curse of Adam's work is removed
- keeps someone from being a workaholic and gives order in your life
- helps to keep someone from coveting and loving money(that can pull you away from Christ)
- also helps us to renew our faith with our Jewish forefathers...Abraham, Moses, Paul and Peter
in summary
We should recognize Jesus as the center and fullfillment of the Sabbath
If we do not do this it is vanity to keep the sabbath day and you will become legalistic self-righteous and judgemental.
However if you only see Jesus and don't keep Sabbath you are missing many Spiritual and earthly blessings of peace
and a common bond with our founding fathers.
: PkbrotherHowever if you only look to see Jesus as the end of the law and the end of the Sabbath and do not keep the earthly Sabbath you are missing many earthly and Spiritual blessings
The blessing of knowing Jesus Christ is the greatest blessing there is. Hear what St. Paul says about the excellency of knowing Christ above all else:
: Philippians 3:2-11Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! For we are the circumcision (i.e. Jews), who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
St. Paul was a Pharisee who knew the sabbath of the law well, and yet not one mention of it here at all. Why do you think that is? Because compared to knowing the Lord Jesus Christ it is as good as nothing, or as St. Paul says, rubbish. The sabbath rest we enter into with Christ in His death through our baptism, being raised with Him to newness of life, no longer being the slave of sin, but being free to live in righteousness toward God, is the greatest rest there is!
For the sake of clarity, my words and quotes are in blue.
Christ's Church is not contained in Jerusalem or any denomination.
Christ's Church started in historic Jerusalem with the historic Apostles on the historic day of Pentecost. Acts chapter 15 describes a historic council being held at the historic Church of Jerusalem with the historic Apostles. Church history shows that the historic Church of Jerusalem has continued until our present day. Why then do you insist that the historic Church of Jerusalem is not Christ's Church? Could it be that it's because you disagree with what that Church teaches? That it doesn't hold to Seventh-day Adventist doctrine? It would seem so. Well Amo, Christ's Church is still there. The gates of hades have not prevailed against her, unless of course you think they have, in which case Jesus wasn't telling the truth. Good luck with that!
The teachings of Christ and His apostles are the standard of authentic Christianity, to which all other teachings must conform or they are false teachings of apostate entities claiming to be Christ's church. The very thing Paul himself warned us was already happening in his day, and would continue to happen after he departed. Even as Jesus testified also. I am a member of the denomination which I believe most closely represents the teachings of Christ and his apostles. I am not saved by my denomination, nor will I remain in it if or when it departs from the faith of Christ and apostles. You simply cling to the same argument the Scribes and Pharisees clung to in Jesus day, which mentality He refuted as a false security pertaining to authenticity.
Jn 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father.[/color] Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them,
If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.The Scribes and Pharisees claimed Abraham for their father, you claim to be of the original church which began in Jerusalem. Jesus told the Pharisees that if they were Abraham's children, they would do the works of Abraham. To the contrary though, they sought to kill Him, and eventually did. What church boasts more than any other of being the original, than the Church of Rome? Yet what did she do, but reject the teachings of Christ and His apostles in favor of her own claiming the Holy Spirit as her guide, and go forth murdering all who would not submit to her, in Christ's name. Which included murdering true Christians that would not bow to her usurped authority. Thus crucifying afresh the Son of God through the murder of His true followers. Your reasoning is faulty, and your claims are exactly what those who were and are deceived have and do use to support their lies and despicable intentions. Jesus clearly stated who the father of all such really is. Even if you won't admit you are of the Church of Rome, your use of her tactics and false claims ties you to her.
Apart from this, Sabbath keeping Christians can make the same claim you do, and other denominations make the same claim as well. It proves absolutely nothing. Conformity to the teachings of Christ and the apostles recorded for us in the New Testament, is the only rule and evidence of authentic Christianity.
Do you believe your own points of argument?
Of course I do. I wouldn't be posting them if I didn't.
So, you are testifying that you are not Catholic, or are Catholic but do not agree with the teachings of the church. Is this correct?
Are your arguments in agreement with the teachings of your own denomination? If not, why are you a member of that denomination? If so, why don't you just come out and say exactly which denomination you belong to? Is it because knowing such would reveal that your arguments are not in line with your own denomination? Would that not then suggest, that you are trifling with the word of God? Or at the very least do not even believe what your denomination teaches, which denomination you seem to be so proud of and contest is the original and spot on with truth. So what or which is it?
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Such desperation to turn the attention away from the arguments to something else. Classic tactic of those who have no answer to give.
Yet you are the one dodging the questions above by your above accusation. This accusation coming from one who will not even answer the question of what denomination they belong to. Your arguments have already been addressed and proved to be built upon faulty premise. Requiring you to completely ignore certain parts of scripture which do not fit into the parameters of the arguments you present. This is not to mention, that they contradict the testimony of the denomination I am fairly sure you belong to. Since you won't directly answer that question, I suppose we can go another rout. Do you believe the following testimony from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
Sunday- fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:[107]
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.[108]
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."[109] Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.
A day of grace and rest from work
2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"[121] human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.[122]
2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.[123] Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.
The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.
2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.
2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.
2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]
IN BRIEF
2189 "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).
2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.
2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).
2192 "Sunday . . . is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 # 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).
2193 "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound . . . to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (CIC, can. 1247).
2194 The institution of Sunday helps all "to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their amilial, cultural, social, and religious lives" (GS 67 # 3).
2195 Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day.
If you do believe the above statement and are Roman Catholic, then your arguments are not in line with your church's teachings. You are either arguing things you yourself do not even believe, or you reject the teachings of your own denomination. Which is it?
If you don't believe it and are not Roman Catholic, then you are at odds with about a billion people who also claim they are the original Church. Proof positive that such claims are exactly that, just another claim by those subscribing to this or that denomination. Meaningless. It is as I have said, conformance to the teachings of Christ and the apostles is the only certain evidence of authentic Christianity. None of whom ever even addressed anything like what you propose regarding the fourth commandment. These and many other such arguments being developed during and continuing in the great apostasy.
Seventh day Adventist don't even agree on how it should be kept.
But Amo, you said to me the following about the 4th commandment:
Quote from: Amo
This isn't rocket science, or some amazingly complex decision or choice. One either observes the above command in and by faith in the word of God or they don't. There is no accidentally observing it, or not observing it. If the issue of this command becomes increasingly cloudy and complex, this is humanities doing, not God's. It is a simple command and issue.
And,
Quote from: Amo
just as obvious, rest is rest, and work is work.
If it's so simple and obvious, as you suggest, then why wouldn't the so-called remnant church of God agree on how it should be kept? And if the so-called remnant church can't even agree on how the sabbath should be kept, then perhaps you're in error about it yourself. After all, what makes you right and your fellow Adventists wrong on this? Maybe what I and others on here have been trying to tell you is the truth, but you only think it's a lie because of your own faulty misunderstanding of how the sabbath should be kept by Christians.
All SDA's pretty much agree that working for a living on the Sabbath is not resting according to the commandment. That still leaves a whole lot to be decided by the individual regarding what one should or should not do on the Sabbath, and opinions vary widely. Each must decide for themselves according to their own understanding and or circumstance. Some must work their normal jobs on Sabbath as well. Doctors, nurses, police, military, and such can't just shut down on Sabbath. These people must work these details out on their own as I did when in the military. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear while perfectly observing the Sabbath that a list of do's and don'ts regarding it is missing the point. The commandment itself does no such thing.
The very fact that many early Sunday laws specifically addressed not working on Sabbaths as Judaizing, reveals that many were still doing so which the apostate church was trying to stop.
Many early Sunday laws? What are these "Sunday laws" you speak of? Perhaps Constantine non-religious Sunday law of AD 321? Or perhaps the anti-Judaistic practice of Christians canon promulgated by the council of Laodicea in AD 363-64? What are these "many early Sunday laws" that you speak of that prove the existence of a wide-spread Christian Judaistic observance of the sabbath?
I don't need or depend upon the laws accusing Sabbath keepers of Judaizing to prove the existence of seventh day Christian Sabbath keepers. It is historical fact, which you simply deny. The laws mentioned though, do reveal that there were still Christian Sabbath keepers when they were given. I don't know how many there were that mentioned Judaizing, that would require some study. Those that I do have readily available though, do again as suggested, reveal that Christians were still observing the seventh day Sabbath when they were passed or declared.
The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)
The above decree put forth by an apostate "Christian" Synod, declares authority to cut people who keep the seventh day Sabbath off from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself. Apart from being a blasphemous statement presuming authority which belongs to Christ alone, it reveals that there were Christians still keeping the seventh day Sabbath. These for-runners of the system of anti-Christ were far more guilty of sin in presuming authority to cut people off people from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, than anyone keeping the fourth commandment in their day. The decree reveals the extent of apostasy some "Christians" had reached by the fourth century.
Pope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :
"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?" Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.
Here we have the testimony of anti-Christ himself as the leader of the system of anti-Christ still addressing the so called problem of Christians observing the seventh day Sabbath some time between 590 and 604. The following testimony is along the same lines.
A CRITICAL HISTORY
OF
THE SABBATH AND THE SUNDAY
IN THE
CHRISTIAN CHURCH
(SECOND EDITION, REVISED)
BY A. H. LEWIS D. D., LL.D.,
Author of "Biblical Teachings concerning the Sabbath and the Sunday," "History of Sunday Legislation", "Paganism Surviving In Christianity," etc., etc.
CHAPTER IX.
POST-APOSTOLIC HISTORY OF THE SABBATH TO THE FOURTH CENTURY.
IN former chapters we have seen that the current of Sabbath history runs full and clear through the Gospels and the book of Acts. Those post-apostolic writings which are assigned the earliest place show no trace of any practice or teaching opposed to the doctrine and practice of Christ and his apostles on this point. The first mention of any form of Sunday-observance, or of no-Sabbathism, appears simultaneously, and in the same man, Justin, about the middle of the second century. These theories, so antagonistic to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, did not and could not appear until the heathen element gained control of the church.
Since the Sabbath was a prominent feature in Judaism, the bitter prejudice which grew up between the heathen and the Jewish elements in the church bore heavily upon it; and when the heathen element gained control of the church, it set about the development of theories and practices which would efface, if possible, this so-called feature of Judaism from the church. The fact that Justin and his successors pressed their no-Sabbath philosophy shows that the Sabbath was yet vigorous in its hold upon the church, even after the Jewish element had been driven out. The strongest weapon with which no-Sabbathism fought the Sabbath during the last half of the second century, and the third, fourth, and fifth centuries, was that the observance of the Sabbath was Judaistic. It is clear that if the Sabbath had died during the new Testament period, as some claim, it could not have been resurrected and restored to such vigor by the Pagan element in the church as to make it necessary for that same element to introduce its no-Sabbath philosophy as a weapon against the Sabbath. The urgency with which no-Sabbathism was pressed from the time of Justin forward shows that the Sabbath had a hold even on Gentile Christians, which could not be broken except by continued appeal to man's natural desires for a weekly festival of "indulgence to the flesh," as Tertullian calls Sunday. Viewed in the light of the philosophy of history, the fact that the Sabbath was so persistently opposed, and at length legislated against, in that portion of the church which had been for several generations under the control of the Gentile Christians, is more than an answer to the assertion that the Sabbath ceased to be observed during the apostolic period.
Another important fact must be remembered here. The authors of no-Sabbathism which began with Justin were men of Pagan rather than Apostolic culture. The doctrine was a residuum of Pagan philosophy. There was a modicum of Christian truth in that part of the theory which some propounded that the true Christian made every day a Sabbath. But that statement is rather a description of certain results in high spiritual culture which can never be attained except through the agency of the Sabbath in lifting men to that high standard. Another element of truth was that the Sabbath should not be kept by idleness, as the Jews were charged with keeping it. But the fundamental misconception lay in teaching that the law was abrogated, that men were free from restraint. These elements of truth gilded the theory to eyes which looked with bitter prejudice on all things associated with Judaism, while the fundamental, practical lawlessness of the theory was regarded as its great merit by the prevailing Paganism. Men whose gods were only enlarged editions of themselves, reveling on Olympus, and delighting in sensuous indulgences, were not ready to embrace the new religion until the rigidness of the Fourth Commandment had been so softened that the Sabbath could be put aside, and a weekly festival put along side of it, and at length in its place. But the facts show that in spite of this abrogation of the Sabbath in the theories of the philosophers, the influence of Apostolic Christianity was so strong that the people continued to keep the Sabbath long after the philosopher had condemned it. Keep in mind the fact that neither the Sunday festival nor the doctrine of no-Sabbathism appear in history until a half century after the time when Uhlhorn says the Western wing of the church was ruptured from the Jewish element, and filled with Pagan converts.
But evidence is not wanting to show that the no-Sabbathism of Justin and his successors was not universally accepted, and that it was opposed by some whose theories were far more apostolic than Justin's philosophic vagaries were. Irenaeus, who was Bishop of Lyons, France, during the latter part of the second century, wrote his noted work Against Heresies about 185 A.D., about twenty years after the death of Justin. He treats the idea that Christ abolished the Sabbath as a heresy, as it was, from the apostolic standpoint. These are his words:
"For the Lord vindicated Abraham's posterity by loosing them from bondage and calling them to salvation, as he did in the case of the woman whom be healed, saying openly to those who had not faith like Abraham, "ye hypocrites, doth not each one of you on the Sabbath-days loose his ox or his ass, and lead him away to watering? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath-days?" It is clear, therefore, that he loosed and vivified those who believed in him as Abraham did, doing nothing contrary to the law when he healed upon the Sabbath-day. For the law did not prohibit men from being healed upon the Sabbaths: [on the contrary,] it even circumcised them upon that day, and gave command that the offices should be performed by the priests for the people; yea it did not disallow the healing even of dumb animals. Both at Siloam and on frequent subsequent occasions, did he perform cures upon the Sabbath; and for this reason many used to resort to him on the Sabbath-days. For the law commanded them to abstain from every servile work, that is from all grasping after wealth which is procured by trading and by other worldly business; but it exhorted them to attend to the exercises of the soul, which consist in reflection, and to addresses of a beneficial kind for their neighbor's benefit. And, therefore, the Lord reproveth those who unjustly blamed him for having healed upon the Sabbath-days. For he did not make void, but fulfilled the law, by performing the offices of the high priest, propitiating God for men, and cleansing the lepers, healing the sick, and himself suffering death, that exiled man might go forth from condemnation, and might return without fear to his own inheritance." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 4, chapter 8, Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 5, p. 397.
I'll bet you did not know that Irenaeus refutes your false claims that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath commandment, did you? You quoted him elsewhere. What do you think of his above words, which contradict your testimony, and are much the same as my arguments against your testimony?
Also, your use of the term "apostate church". I see you're still holding to your erroneous view of 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4, Amo. Question: How did the Church turn apostate when Jesus promised it wouldn't be overcome by corruption (cf. Matthew 16:18)? Was Jesus wrong, or worse lying about keeping His historic Church free from corruption?
Of course He wasn't wrong, you just apply His words to the wrong church. His church is composed of those who believe and submit to His teachings, not simply any who claim to be His church. While He taught that His church would not be overcome, He also taught that many would profess His name whom He never knew. That would be those who depart from His teachings, and that of the apostles which do not contradict His teachings.
Jn 12:I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Jn 14:23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Another question: If St. Paul was speaking of the Church in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, then why didn't he use the Greek word for Church in the entire passage? Something as important as the apostasy of the historic Church, you think he'd specify what he was talking about. Or perhaps he did with the words "temple of God" which you're misinterpreting to be a reference to Christ's historic Church.
Why do you always add the word historic to church, which the scriptures never do? The church is unquestionably referred to as the temple of God in the NT. There is no other temple of the NT. You may of course enlighten us, if this is wrong. Please do.
Ignatius, Barnabas and Justin, whose writings constitute our major source of information for the first half of the second century, witnessed and participated in the process of separation from Judaism which led the majority of the Christians to abandon the Sabbath and adopt Sunday as the new day of worship. Their testimonies therefore, coming from such an early period, assume a vital importance for our inquiry into the causes of the origin of Sunday observance (Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University- FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY: A HISTORICAL INVESTIGATION OF THE RISE OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY -Chapter 7 -ANTI-JUDAISM AND THE ORIGIN OF SUNDAY)
"Until well into the second century we do not find the slightest indication in our sources that Christians marked Sunday by any kind of abstention from work."--W. Rordorf, Sunday, p. 157.
North African half-heathen Christians who led out in Christian worship on Sunday, were also the first to call Jesus Christ the true Sun-god, and to direct their prayers toward the east--the rising sun--to rise early in the morning that they pray facing the sun as it arose. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD.) frequently called Christ the true Sun, and he urged the pagans to accept Him as such. Origen (c. 185-254) said, "Christ is the Sun of Justice; if the moon is united, which is the Church, it will be filled with His light." Cyprian (d. 258), Bishop of Carthage told believers "to pray at sunrise to commemorate the resurrection . . . and to pray at the setting of the sun . . . for the advent of Christ." "They took a much easier view of certain pagan customs, conventions and images and saw no objection, after ridding them of their pagan content, to adapting them to Christian thought."--J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.
"Cults of the sun, as we know from many sources, had attained great vogue during the second, third, and fourth centuries. Sun-worshipers indeed formed one of the big groups in that religious world in which Christianity was fighting for a place. Many of them became converts to Christianity . . . Worshipers in St. Peter's turned away from the altar and faced the door so that they could adore the rising sun."--Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, p. 192. [Dr. Laing(1869-1945) was a Canadian-born university professor and later dean at the University of Chicago].
It was the Roman Imperial plan on several occasions, to unite all religions of the Empire into one religion--sun-worship: "The Jewish, the Samaritan, even the Christian, were to be fused and recast into one great system, of which the sun was to be the central object of adoration."--Henry Hart Milman, The History of Christianity, bk. 2, chap. 8 (Vol. II, p. 175). [Dr. Milman (1791-1868) was an important historian of England and dean of St. Paul's Cathedral in London].
Though Sunday is mentioned in so many different ways during the second century, it is not till we come almost to the close of the second century that we find the first; instance in which it is called "Lord's day." Clement, of Alexandria, A.D. 194, uses this title with reference to "the eighth day." If he speaks of a natural day, he no doubt means Sunday. It is not certain, however, that he speaks of a natural day, for his explanation gives to the term an entirely different sense. THE HISTORY OF THE SABBATH by J.N. Andrews page 160
Tertullian, A.D. 200, is the next writer who uses the term "Lord's day." He
defines his meaning, and fixes the name upon the day of Christ's resurrection. Kitto says this is "the earliest authentic instance" in which the name is thus applied, and we have proved this true by actual examination of every writer, unless the reader can discover some reference to Sunday in Clement's mystical eighth day. Id page 162
Origen, A.D. 231, is the third of the ancient writers who call "the eighth day" the Lord's day. He was the disciple of Clement, the first writer who makes this application. It is not strange, therefore, that he should teach Clement's doctrine of a perpetual Lord's day, nor that he should state it even more distinctly than did Clement himself. Origen, having represented Paul as teaching that all days are alike, continues thus: — "If it be objected to us on this subject that we ourselves are accustomed to observe certain days, as for example the Lord's day, the Preparation, the Passover, or the Pentecost, I have to answer, that to the perfect Christian, who is ever in his thoughts, words, and deeds serving his natural Lord, God the Word, all his days are the Lord's, and he is always keeping the Lord's day." Against Celsus, book 8, chap. 29; Testimony of the Fathers, p. 87. Id page 165
The "Lord's day" of the Catholic church can be traced no nearer to John than A.D. 194, or perhaps, in strict truth, to A.D. 200, and those who then use the name show plainly that they did not believe it to be the Lord's day by apostolic appointment. To hide these fatal facts by seeming to trace the title back to Ignatius; the disciple of John, and thus to identify Sunday with the Lord's day of that apostle, a series of remarkable frauds has been committed, which we have had occasion to examine. But even could the Sunday Lord's day be traced to Ignatius, the disciple of John, it would then come no nearer being an apostolic institution than does the Catholic festival of the Passover, which can be traced to Polycarp, another of John's disciples, who claimed to have received it from John himself! Id pages 166and 167.
"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday. Perhaps at the end of the second century a false application of this kind had begun to take place; for men appear by that time to have considered laboring on Sunday as a sin." Neander's Church History, translated by H. J. Rose, p. 186.
The following is taken from The Great Empires of Prophecy by A. T. Jones. Pages 349-351 and 357-359.
" The next step in addition to this was the adoption of the day of the sun as a festival day. To such an extent were the forms of sun-worship practised in this apostasy, that before the close of the second century the heathen themselves charged these so-called Christians with worshiping the sun. A presbyter of the church of Carthage, then and now one of the "church fathers," who wrote about A.D. 200, considered it necessary to make a defense of the practice, which he did to the following effect in an address to the rulers and magistrates of the Roman Empire: — "Others, again, certainly with more information and greater verisimilitude, believe that the sun is our god. We shall be counted Persians perhaps, though we do not worship the orb of day painted on a piece of linen cloth, having himself everywhere in his own disk. The idea no doubt has originated from our being known to turn to the east in prayer. But you, many of you, also under pretense sometimes of worshiping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. In the same way, if we devote Sunday to rejoicing, from a far different reason than sun-worship, we have some resemblance to those of you who devote the day of Saturn to ease and luxury, though they too go far away from Jewish ways, of which indeed they are ignorant." — Tertullian "Apology," chap. 16.
And again in an address to all the heathen he justifies this practice by the argument, in effect, You do the same thing, you originated it too, therefore you have no right to blame us. In his own words his defense is as follows: —
"Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray toward the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshiping the heavenly bodies, likewise move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day, in preference to the preceding day, as the most suitable in the week for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and
banqueting." — Tertullian "Ad Nationes," book 1, chap. 13.
This accommodation was easily made, and all this practice was easily justified, by the perverse-minded teachers, in the perversion of such scriptures as, "The Lord God is a sun and shield," and, "Unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings." F456 As this custom spread, and through it such disciples were multiplied, the ambition of the bishop of Rome grew apace. It was in honor of the day of the sun that there was manifested the first attempt of the bishop of Rome to compel the obedience of all other bishops, and the fact that this attempt was made in such a cause, at the very time when these pretended Christians were openly accused by the heathen of worshiping the sun, is strongly suggestive.
From Rome there came now another addition to the sun-worshiping apostasy. The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate the Passover in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentiles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, —
the fourteenth of the first month. Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this celebration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years revolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday — the Sunday nearest to the fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year. And if the fourteenth day of that month should itself be a Sunday, then the celebration was not to be held on that day, but upon the next Sunday. One reason of this was not only to be as like the heathen as possible, but to be as un like the Jews as possible; this, in order not only to facilitate the "conversion" of the heathen by conforming to their customs, but also by pandering to their spirit of contempt and hatred of the Jews. It was upon this point that the bishop of Rome made his first open attempt at
Absolutism......................................................
"Accordingly, after having taken the advice of some foreign bishops, he wrote an imperious letter to the Asiatic prelates commanding them to imitate the example of the Western Christians with respect to the time of celebrating the festival of Easter. The Asiatics answered this lordly requisition by the pen of Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, who declared in their name, with great spirit and resolution, that they would by no means depart in this manner from the custom handed down to them by their ancestors. Upon this the thunder of excommunication began to roar. Victor, exasperated by this resolute answer of the Asiatic bishops, broke communion with them, pronounced them unworthy of the name of his brethren, and excluded them from all fellowship with the church of Rome."
— Mosheim "Ecclesiastical History," century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 11. Maclaine's
Translation................................................................
While this effort was being made on the side of philosophy to unite all religions, there was at the same time a like effort on the side of politics. It was the ambition of Elagabalus (A.D. 218-222) to make the worship of the sun supersede all other worship in Rome. It is further related of him that a more ambitious scheme even than this was in the emperor's mind; which was nothing less than the blending of all religions into one, of which "the sun was to be the central object of adoration." — Milman "History of Christianity" book 2, chap. 8, par. 22. But the elements were not yet fully prepared for such a fusion. Also the shortness of the reign of Elagabalus prevented any decided advancement toward success.
Alexander Severus (A.D. 222-225) held to the same idea, and carried it into effect so far as his individual practice was concerned. "The mother of Alexander Severus, the able, perhaps crafty and rapacious, Mammaea, had at least held intercourse with the Christians of Syria. She had conversed with the celebrated Origen, and listened to his exhortations, if without conversion, still not without respect. Alexander, though he had neither the religious education, the pontifical character, nor the dissolute manners of his predecessor, was a Syrian, with no hereditary attachment to the Roman form of paganism. He seems to have affected a kind of universalism: he paid decent respect to the gods of the Capitol; he held in honor the Egyptian worship, and enlarged the temples of His and Serapis. In his own palace, with respectful indifference, he enshrined, as it were, as his household deities, the representatives of the different religions or theophilosophic systems which were prevalent in the Roman Empire, — Orpheus, Abraham, Christ, and Apollonius of Tyana.... The homage of Alexander Severus may be a fair test of the general sentiment of the more intelligent heathen of his time." — Milman Id., book 2, chap. 8, par. 24. His reign also was too short to accomplish anything beyond his own individual example. But the same tendency went rapidly forward. On the side of philosophy and the apostasy, the progress was continuous and rapid."Heathenism, as interpreted by philosophy, almost found favor with some of the more moderate Christian apologists.... The Christians endeavored to enlist the earlier philosophers in their cause; they were scarcely content with asserting that the nobler Grecian philosophy might be designed to prepare the human mind for the reception of Christianity; they were almost inclined to endow these sages with a kind of prophetic foreknowledge of its more mysterious doctrines. 'I have explained,' says the Christian in Minucius Felix, 'the opinions of almost all the philosophers, whose most illustrious glory it is that they have worshiped one God, though under various names; so that one might suppose either that the Christians of the present day are philosophers, or that the philosophers of old were already Christians.' "These advances on the part of Christianity were more than met by paganism. The heathen religion, which prevailed at least among the more enlightened pagans during this period,... was almost as different from that of the older Greeks and Romans, or even that which prevailed at the commencement of the empire, as it was from Christianity.... On the great elementary principle of Christianity, the unity of the supreme God, this approximation had long been silently made. Celsus, in his celebrated controversy with Origen, asserts that this philosophical notion of the Deity is perfectly reconcilable with paganism." — Milman Id., par. 28."
The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantinebeing consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884
Here is the first Sunday Law decree of a Christian council. It was given about 16 years after Constantine's first Sunday Law of A.D. 321: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: "sabbato"--shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out ['anathema,'--excommunicated] from Christ."--Council of Laodicea, c. A.D. 337, Canon 29, quoted in C.J. Hefele, "A History of the Councils of the Church," Vol. 2, p. 316.
"Modern Christians who talk of keeping Sunday as a 'holy' day, as in the still extant 'Blue Laws,' of colonial America, should know that as a 'holy' day of rest and cessation from labor and amusements Sunday was unknown to Jesus . . . It formed no tenet [teaching] of the primitive Church and became 'sacred' only in the course of time. Outside the Church its observance was legalized for the Roman Empire through a series of decrees starting with the famous one of Constantine in 321, an edict due to his political and social ideas."--W, W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 257.
"The Church made a sacred day of Sunday . . . largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun;--for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance."-- Arthur Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," 1928, p. 145.
"Remains of the struggle [between the religion of Christianity and the religion of Mithraism] are found in two institutions adopted from its rival by Christianity in the fourth century, the two Mithraic sacred days: December 25, 'dies natalis solis' [birthday of the sun], as the birthday of Jesus,--and Sunday, 'the venerable day of the Sun,' as Constantine called it in his edict of 321."--Walter Woodburn Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," p. 60.
"This [Constantine's Sunday decree of March, 321] is the 'parent' Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church, in the hands of the papacy, enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments."--Walter W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 261.
"Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of religions. He would by all lawful and peaceable means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity . . . Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their Sun-god. . . [so they should now be combined."--H.G. Heggtveit, "illustreret Kirkehistorie," 1895, p. 202.
"If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be regarded in execration [cursing] of the Jews."--Pope Sylvester, quoted by S.R.E. Humbert, "Adversus Graecorum Calumnias," in J.P. Migne, "Patrologie," p. 143. [Sylvester (A.D. 314-337) was the pope at the time Constantine 1 was Emperor.]
As we have already noted, excepting for the Roman and Alexandrian Christians, the majority of Christians were observing the seventh-day Sabbath at least as late as the middle of the fifth century [A.D. 450]. The Roman and Alexandrian Christians were among those converted from heathenism. They began observing Sunday as a merry religious festival in honor of the Lord's resurrection, about the latter half of the second century A.D. However, they did not try to teach that the Lord or His apostles commanded it. In fact, no ecclesiastical writer before Eusebius of Caesarea in the fourth century even suggested that either Christ or His apostles instituted the observance of the first day of the week.
"These Gentile Christians of Rome and Alexandria began calling the first day of the week 'the Lord's day.' This was not difficult for the pagans of the Roman Empire who were steeped in sun worship to accept, because they [the pagans] referred to their sun-god as their 'Lord.' "--EM. Chalmers, "How Sunday Came Into the Christian Church," p. 3.
"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued."--Lyman Coleman, "Ancient Christianity Exemplified" chap. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.
"What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; and a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries, enjoined with increasing stringency abstinence from labor on Sunday."--Huttan Webster, "Rest Days," pp. 122-123, 210.
"A history of the problem shows that in some places, it was really only after some centuries that the Sabbath rest really was entirely abolished, and by that time the practice of observing a bodily rest on the Sunday had taken its place . . . It was the seventh day of the week which typified the rest of God after creation, and not the first day. "--Vincent Jo Kelly, Forbidden Sunday and Feast day Occupations, 1943, pp. 15, 22 [This Catholic University Press publication was written by a priest of the Redemptorist order].
"The early Christians had at first adopted the Jewish seven-day week with its numbered week days, but by the close of the third century A.D. this began to give way to the planetary week; and in the fourth and fifth centuries the pagan designations became generally accepted in the western half of Christendom. The use of the planetary names by Christians attests the growing influence of astrological speculations introduced by converts from paganism . . . During these same centuries the spread of Oriental solar [sun] worships, especially that of Mithra [Persian sun worship], in the Roman world, had already led to the substitution by pagans of dies Solis for dies Saturni, as the first day of the planetary week. Thus gradually a pagan institution was engrafted on Christianity."--Hutton Webster, Rest Days, pp. 220-221. [Webster (1875-?), was an author, historian, and professor at the University of Nebraska].
"The last day of the week was strictly kept in connection with that of the first day for a long time after the overthrow of the temple and its worship. Down even to the fifth century the Observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued." Coleman Ancient Christianity Exemplified, chap. 26, sec. 2.
"During the early ages of the church, it was never entitled 'the Sabbath,' this word being confined to the seventh day of the week, the Jewish Sabbath, which, as we have already said, continued to be observed for several centuries by the converts to Christianity." Anc. Christ. Exem., chap. 26, sec. 2.
"The observance of the Lord's day was ordered while yet the Sabbath of the Jews was continued; nor was the latter superseded until the former had acquired the same solemnity and importance which belonged, at first, to that great day which God originally ordained and blessed. But in time, after the Lord's day was fully established, the observance of the Sabbath of the Jews was gradually discontinued, and was finally denounced as heretical." Anc. Christ. Exem., chap. 26, sec. 2.
"The ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East church above three hundred years after our Savior's death; and besides that, no other day for more hundreds of years than I spake of before, was known in the church by the name of Sabbath but that: let the collection thereof and conclusion of all be this: The Sabbath of the seventh day, as touching the alligations of God's solemn worship to time, was ceremonial; that Sabbath was religiously observed in the East church three hundred years and more after our Savior's passion. That church, being the great part of Christendom, and having the apostles' doctrine and example to instruct them, would have restrained it if it had been deadly." Edward Brerewood, professor in Gresham College, London . Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77, Oxford, 1631.
And Sir Win. Domville says: —
"Centuries of the Christian era passed away before the Sunday was observed by the Christian church as a Sabbath. History does not furnish us with a single proof or indication that it was at any time so observed previous to the Sabbatical edict of Constantine in A.D. 321." Examination of the Six Texts, p. 291.
"Our observance of Sunday as the Lord's day is apparently derived from Mithraism. The argument that has sometimes been used against this claim, namely, that Sunday was chosen because of the resurrection on that day, is not well supported." Gordon J. Laing, "Survivals of Roman Religion," p. 148.
And what, pray tell, are all of these quotes meant to prove? Or are we simply supposed to be impressed with your copy and paste abilities?
No, they simply show historical facts which your false testimony denies. The seventh day Sabbath was not done away with by Christ or the apostles, it was replaced over time by apostate "Christianity".
It seems I posted two separate replies to DMA from different threads in my last post. My bad.
Have you not heard about Jesus and his disciples concerning the Sabbath of the Jews?
Luke 6
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
So, we see clearly what Jesus and his disciples did on the Sabbath.
Look what Jesus said concerning the Sabbath and Himself.
5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Is Jesus the Lord of the SDA Christians, and of Amo?
If so, will you have gone with Christ in plucking the ears of corn on a Sabbath day?
I'm sure you would have. By doing so, will God condemn you?
Now, will you have gone with Christ on a Sunday, or any other day, and do no work and rest with Christ, and worship God?
I'm sure you would have also.
You see how it is now with those whose Lord is Christ and have faith in him?
And so, "Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians".
Far from it.
In a different sense, yes, if worship is not in faith and not in the Spirit. All then is in vain.
: Michael2012 Sun Apr 30, 2017 - 03:41:30
Have you not heard about Jesus and his disciples concerning the Sabbath of the Jews?
Luke 6
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
So, we see clearly what Jesus and his disciples did on the Sabbath.
Look what Jesus said concerning the Sabbath and Himself.
5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Is Jesus the Lord of the SDA Christians, and of Amo?
If so, will you have gone with Christ in plucking the ears of corn on a Sabbath day?
I'm sure you would have. By doing so, will God condemn you?
Now, will you have gone with Christ on a Sunday, or any other day, and do no work and rest with Christ, and worship God?
I'm sure you would have also.
You see how it is now with those whose Lord is Christ and have faith in him?
And so, "Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians".
Far from it.
In a different sense, yes, if worship is not in faith and not in the Spirit. All then is in vain.
It is not possible to worship on Sunday in any other fashion than any other day, since their is no word of God concerning doing so to have faith in. It may be observed by man made tradition alone. It is absolutely possible to observe the seventh day
Sabbath by faith in God's word because God's word speaks of it many times over and commands the same in God's commandments. It can't get any simpler. Choose to worship and obey God, or choose to worship and obey man, or yourself basically. Sunday worship has been forced upon humanity many times over throughout history by those who would exalt man made traditions above the word of God and is forced upon many still today. All the while these same people willing to force others to observe their tradition, ignore the plain testimony and command of God concerning the seventh day. These things should not be so.
(More excerpts from-)
A CRITICAL HISTORY
OF
THE SABBATH AND THE SUNDAY
IN THE
CHRISTIAN CHURCH
(SECOND EDITION, REVISED)
BY A. H. LEWIS D. D., LL.D.,
Author of "Biblical Teachings concerning the Sabbath and the Sunday," "History of Sunday Legislation", "Paganism Surviving In Christianity," etc., etc.
CHAPTER IX.
POST-APOSTOLIC HISTORY OF THE SABBATH TO THE FOURTH CENTURY.
We have also certain "Remains" of one Archelaus, a Bishop who also wrote against Heresies. His Disputation with Manes dates probably from 280 A.D. In this he speaks as follows: (Sec. 42.)
"Again as to the assertion that the Sabbath has been abolished, we deny that he has abolished it plainly (plane). For he was himself also Lord of the Sabbath. And this, the law's relation to the Sabbath, was like the servant who his charge of the bridegroom's couch, and who prepares the same with all carefulness, and does not suffer it to be disturbed or touched by any stranger, but keeps it intact against the time of the bridegroom's arrival; so that when be is come, the bed may be used as it pleases himself, or as it is granted to those to use it whom he has bidden enter along with him. (Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 20, p. 373.)
Tertullian is more noted as a voluminous writer than as a consistent one. He sometimes advocates no-Sabbathism undisguisedly; but at other times he taught a more Scriptural doctrine. The exact date of his writings against Marcion is unknown, although the first book is fixed at 208 A.D. The fourth book came at a later period. Bishop Kaye supposes his death to have occurred about 220 A.D. We may safely conclude that the fourth book against Marcion appeared during the first quarter of the third century. Chapter 12 of that book is "Concerning Christ's authority over the Sabbath," etc. His conclusions are as follows:
"Thus Christ did not at all rescind the Sabbath. He kept the law thereof, and both in the former case did a work which was beneficial to the life of his disciples (for he indulged them with the relief of food when they were hungry), and in the present instance cured the withered hand, in each case intimating by facts, "I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it"; although Marcion has gagged his mouth by this word. For even in the case before us he fulfilled the law, while interpreting its condition. [Moreover.] He exhibits in a clear light the different kinds of work, while doing what the law excepts from the sacredness of the Sabbath, [and] while imparting to the Sabbath-day itself, which from the beginning, had been consecrated by the benediction of the Father, an additional sanctity by his own beneficent action. For he furnished to this day divine safeguards - a course which his adversary would have pursued for some other days, to avoid honoring the Creator's Sabbath, and restoring to the Sabbath the works which were proper for it. Since, in like manner, the prophet Elisha, on this day restored to life the dead son of the Shunammite woman, you see, O Pharisee, and you, too, O Marcion, how that it was [proper employment] for the Creator's Sabbaths of old to do good, to save life, not to destroy it; how that Christ introduced nothing new, which was not after the example, the Gentleness, the mercy, and the prediction also of the Creator. For in this very example he fulfills the prophetic announcement of a specific healing: "The weak hands are strengthened," as were also, "the feeble knees," in the sick of the palsy. (Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 7, pp. 219, 220.)
If Tertullian, in the above, contradicts his own words in other places, the ultimate test is not between his inconsistencies, but between his theories and the facts of the Bible. Judged by this standard, the foregoing is essentially correct. Incidental proof that the Sabbath, in its proper character, and under its proper name, continued through the centuries, while no-Sabbathism was developing, is found in the fact that Anatolius, Bishop of Laodicea, who was a mathematician of repute, prepared a Chronology of Easter, evidently to aid in the settlement of that much-discussed question. The date of that work is placed in the latter part of the third century. This "Easter table" uses the terms Sabbath and Lord's-day in their regular order, showing how the names and the days were then held. (Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 14, p. 423.)
The foregoing extracts show that no-Sabbathism did not come in unchallenged, but that it was opposed as a heresy, and that the truth was defended on good and Scriptural grounds. There is no reason to believe that Sunday gained any pre-eminence over the Sabbath, even though it did appeal to the lower elements of men's nature by its festal character, until after the time of Constantine, when it was exalted through civil legislation.
No one claims that the "Longer" form of the Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians is genuine. Its date is unknown; but we deem it to belong to the last half of the fourth century, or to the fifth. But we are willing, for sake of the argument, to grant it an Ante-Nicene place, that is, before 325 A.D. Whenever it was written, it shows that at that time the writer taught a just and Scriptural view of Sabbath-observance, and asked for Sunday only a festal character. It was to him the "Queen" of the days because it was a feast as opposed to the Sabbath, the Friday, and the Wednesday, which were held to be sorrowful fasts. In chapter 9 - Long Form - speaking of Christ, the writer says:
"The prophets were his servants, and foresaw him by the Spirit, and waited for him as their Teacher, and expected him as their Lord and Saviour, saving, "He will come and save us." Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat." For say the [holy] oracles, " In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread." But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's-day as a festival, the resurrection day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. (Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 3, p. 181.)
The foregoing from authors who wrote previous to the fourth century is fully sustained by the statements of both earlier and later historians.
Socrates, whose work was brought down to 439 A.D., in his Ecclesiastical History (Book 5, chap. 22) tells of the various practices respecting the celebration of Easter, baptism, fasting, marriage, public assemblies and other rites and ceremonies. The references to the Sabbath in this chapter as related to public assemblies and the observance of Easter show that it still held a prominent and in many respects its proper place in the Christian church. He says:
"Such is the difference in the churches on the subject of fasts. Nor is there less variation in regard to religious assemblies. For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebais, hold their religious assemblies on the Sabbath, but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries." (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 2, p. 132.)
In another place Socrates, speaking of the conflict between the Orthodox Christians and the Arians as to their services and public assembles, says:
"The Arians, as we have said, held their meetings without the city. As often, therefore, as the festal days occurred - I mean Saturday [Sabbath] and Lord's-day - in each week, on which assemblies are usually held in the churches, they congregated within the city gates about the public squares, and sang responsive verses adapted to the Arian heresy. This they did during the greater part of the night; and again in the morning, chanting the same songs which they called responsive, they paraded through the midst of the city, and so passed out of the gates to go to their places of assembly. (Ecc. History, Book 6, chap. 8. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 2, p. 144.)
Sozomen, a contemporary of Socrates, writing probably ten or fifteen years later (about A.D. 460), has the following:
"Assemblies are not held in all churches on the same time or manner. The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria. There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries. The same prayers and psalms are not recited nor the same lections read on the same occasions in all churches." (Ecc. History, Book 7, chap. 19. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 2, p. 390.)
The reader will readily see why the Sabbath was not observed at Rome and Alexandria. Sozomen wrote nearly one hundred and fifty years after the passage of the first "Sunday Law" by Constantine, and the subsequent enactments against the Sabbath.
Thus men living in the fifth century, and having access to all the existing material, bear testimony to the fact that it was the almost universal custom of the church at that time to observe the Sabbath. Corresponding with the foregoing is the testimony of modern writers.
Lyman Coleman says:
"The observance of the Lord's-day, as the first day of the week, was at first introduced as a separate institution. Both this and the Jewish Sabbath were kept for some time; finally, the latter passed wholly over into the former, which now took the place of the ancient Sabbath of the Israelites. But their Sabbath, the last day of the week, was strictly kept, in connection with that of the first day, for a long time after the overthrow of the temple and its worship. Down even to the fifth century, the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing; until it was wholly discontinued. . . . Both were observed in the Christian church down to the fifth century, with this difference, that in the Eastern church both days were regarded as joyful occasions; but in the Western, the Jewish Sabbath was kept as a fast. (Ancient Christianity Exemplified, chap. 26, sec. 2.)
Heylyn, after giving the words of Ambrose, that he fasted when at Rome on the Sabbath, and when away from Rome did not, adds:
"Nay, which is more, St. Augustine tells us, that many times in Africa, one and the self church, at least the several churches in the self-same province had some that dined upon the Sabbath, and some that fasted. And in this difference it stood a long time together, till, in the end, the Roman church obtained the cause, and Saturday became a fast almost through all the parts of the Western world. I say of the Western world, and of that alone; the Eastern churches being so far from altering their ancient custom, that, in the sixth Council of Constantinople, Anno, 692, they did admonish those of Rome to forbear fasting on that day, upon pain of censure." (Hist. of the Sabbath, part 2, chap. 2, sec. 3.)
King, discussing the passage from Ignatius, of which we have spoken, on page 16 ff, says:
"So that their not Sabbatizing did not exclude their keeping of the Lord's-day, nor the Christian, but only the Judaical observance of the Sabbath, or seventh day; for the Eastern churches, in compliance with the Jewish converts, who were numerous in those parts, performed on the seventh day the same public religious services that they did on the first day, observing both the one and the other, as a festival. Whence Origen enumerates Saturday as one of the four feasts solemnized in his time, though, on the contrary, some of the Western churches, that they might not seem to Judaize, fasted on Saturday. So that, besides the Lord's-day, Saturday was an usual season whereon many churches solomnized their religious services. ("Primitive Church," first published 1691, pp. 126, 127.)
An old work on the "Morality of the Fourth Commandment," by William Twisse, D. D., has the following:
"Yet, for some hundred years in the primitive church, not the Lord's-day only, but the seventh day also, was religiously observed, not by Ebion and Cerinthus only, but by pious Christians also, as Baronius writeth, and Gomarus confesseth, and Rivert also. (P. 9, London, 1641.)
"A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," by Edward Brerewood, Professor in Gresham College, London, has the following:
"And especially because it is certain (and little do you know of the ancient condition of the church if you know it not) that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's-day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." (P. 77, London, 1630.)
The learned Joseph Bingham, says:
"We also find in ancient writers frequent mention made of religious assemblies on the Saturday, or seventh day of the week, which was the Jewish Sabbath. It is not easy to tell either the original of this practice, or the reasons of it, because the writers of the first ages are altogether silent about it. In the Latin churches [excepting Milan] it was kept as a fast; but in all the Greek churches, as a festival; I consider it here only as a day of public divine service, on which, as the authors who mention it assure us, all the same offices were performed as were used to be on the Lord's-day. For Athanasius, who is one of the first that mentions it, says: They met on the Sabbath, not that they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. And Timotheus, one of his successors in the See of Alexandria, says, the communion was administered on this day, as on the Lord's-day. Which were the only days in the week that the Communion was received by the Christians of his time at Alexandria. Socrates is a little more particular about the service; for he says: In their assemblies on this day they celebrated the communion; only the churches of Egypt and Thebais differed in this from the rest of the world, and even from their neighbors at Alexandria, that they had the communion at evening service. In another place, speaking of the churches of Constantinople, in the time of Chrysostom, he reckons Saturday and Lord's-day, the two great weekly festivals, on which they always held church assemblies. And Cassian takes notice of the Egyptian churches that among them the service of the Lord's-day and the Sabbath, was always the same; for they had the lessons then read out of the New Testament only, one out of the Gospels; and the other out of the Epistles or the Acts of the Apostles; whereas, on other days they had them partly out of the Old Testament, and partly out of the New. In another place be observes that in the monasteries of Egypt and Thebais, they had no public assemblies on other days, besides morning and evening, except upon Saturday and the Lord's-day, when they met at, three o'clock, that is, nine in the morning, to celebrate the Communion. (Antiquities of the Christian Church, Book 13, chap. 9, see. 3.)
William Cave, D. D., in a work entitled "Primitive Christianity," testifies as follows:
"Next to the Lord's-day, the Sabbath, or Saturday, for so the word Sabbatum is constantly used in the writings of the fathers when speaking of it as it relates to Christians, was held by them in great veneration, and especially in the Eastern parts, honored with all the public solemnities of religion. For which we are to know, that the Gospel in those parts mainly prevailing amongst the Jews, they being generally the first converts to the Christian faith, they still retained a mighty reverence for the Mosaic institutions, and especially for the Sabbath, as that which had been appointed by God himself (as the memorial of his rest from the work of creation) settled by their great master Moses and celebrated by their ancestors for so many ages as the solemn day of their public worship, and were therefore very loth that it should be wholly antiquated and laid aside. . . . Hence they usually had most parts of divine service performed upon that day; they met together for public prayers, for reading the Scriptures, celebration of the Sacraments, and such like duties. This is plain, not only from some passages in Ignatius, and Clemens, his Constitutions, but from writers of more unquestionable credit and authority. Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria tells us that they assemble on Saturdays, not that they were infected with Judaism, but only to worship Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath; and Socrates speaking of the usual times of their public meeting, calls the Sabbath and the Lord's-day, the weekly festivals on which the congregation was wont to meet in the church for the performance of divine services. Therefore the council of Laodicea amongst other things decreed (Can.16), that upon Saturdays the gospels and other scriptures should be read. . . . Upon this day also, as well as upon Sunday, all fasts were severely prohibited (an infallible argument they counted it a festival day) one Saturday in the year only excepted, viz.: that before Easter day, which was always observed as a solemn fast; things so commonly known as to need no proof. . . . Thus stood the case in the Eastern church; in those in the West we find it somewhat different. Amongst them it was not observed as a religious festival, but kept as a constant fast. The reason whereof (as it is given by Pope Innocent, in an epistle to the Bishop of Eugubium, where he treats of this very case) seems most probable. "If (says he) we commemorate Christ's resurrection, not only at Easter, but every Lord's-day, and fast upon Friday because it was the day of his passion, we ought not to pass by Saturday, which is the middle time between the days of grief and joy; the apostles themselves spending those two days, (viz.) Friday and the Sabbath, in great sorrow and heaviness; and he thinks no doubt ought to be made, but that the apostles fasted upon those two days; whence the church had a tradition, that the sacraments were not to be administered on those days, and therefore concludes that every Saturday, or Sabbath, ought to be kept a fast. To the same purpose the council of Illiberis ordained that a Saturday festival was an error that ought to be reformed, and that men ought to fast on every Sabbath. But, though this seems to have been the general practice, yet it did not obtain in all places of the West alike. In Italy itself, it was otherwise at Milan, where Saturday was a festival; and it is said in the life of Saint Ambrose, who was bishop of that See, that he constantly dined as well upon Saturday as the Lord's-day, and used also upon that day to preach to the people. (P. 117-119, Oxford, 1846.)
Dr. Charles Hase says:
"The Roman church regarded Saturday as a fast day in direct opposition to those who regarded it is a Sabbath. (History of the Christian Church, p. 67, paragraph 69, New York, 1855.)
Rev. James Cragie Robertson states that:
"In memory of our Lord's betrayal and crucifixion the fourth and sixth days of each week were kept as fasts, by abstaining from food until the hour at which he gave up the Ghost, the ninth hour, or 3 P.M. In the manner of observing the seventh day the Eastern church differed from the Western. The Orientals, influenced by the neighborhood of the Jews, and by the ideas of Jewish converts, regarded it as a continuation of the Mosaic Sabbath, and celebrated it almost in the same manner as the Lord's-day; while their brethren in the West - although not until after the time of Tertullian, extended to it the fast of the preceding day. (History of the Church, p. 158, London. 1854.)
Rev. Philip Schaff bears the following testimony:
"The observance of the Sabbath among the Jewish Christians gradually ceased. Yet the Eastern church to this day marks the seventh day of the week (excepting only the Easter Sabbath) by omitting fasting, and by standing in prayer; while the Latin church, in direct opposition to Judaism, made Saturday a fast day. The controversy on this point began as early as the end of the second century. Wednesday, and especially Friday, were devoted to the weekly commemoration of the sufferings and death of the Lord, and observed as days of penance, or watch days, and half fasting, (which lasted till three o'clock in the afternoon.) (History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2, p. 205. New York 1883.)
Neander recognizes the observance of the Sabbath by the church in general during the first three centuries:
"In the Western churches, particularly the Roman, where opposition to Judaism was the prevailing tendency, this very opposition produced the custom of celebrating the Saturday in particular as a fast day. This difference in customs would of course be striking where members of the Oriental church spent their Sabbath-day in the Western church." (History of the Christian religion and church, during the first three centuries, p. 186, Rose's translation. Nearly the same language is used in his General History, Vol. 1, P. 298, Torrey's translation.)
Gieseler bears the following testimony:
"While the Christians of Palestine, who kept the whole Jewish law, celebrated of course all the Jewish festivals, the heathen converts observed only the Sabbath, and, in remembrance of the closing scenes of our Saviour's life, the Passover though without the Jewish superstitions. Besides these, the Sunday, as the day of our Saviour's resurrection, was devoted to religious worship. (Church History, Apostolic Age to A. D. 70, sec. 29.)
In the prolegomena to the "Institutes of John Cassian," which were written about 420 A.D., we find an incidental reference to the practice of the Monks of that time which shows the observance of the Sabbath up to the end of the first quarter of the fifth century even in the Western church. These are the words:
"He was an aged priest who had lived for years the life of an Anchorite, only leaving his cell for the purpose of going to the church, which was five miles off, on Saturday and Sunday, and returning with a large bucket of water on his shoulders to last him for the week. (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 11, p. 187.)
Gregory the Great gives us a glimpse of the position which the Sabbath and Sunday occupied at Rome when he was Pope. He was ordained Sept. 3, 590 A.D., and held the office about fifteen years. The Epistle quoted below dates from the year 602-3 A. D. The first Epistle of Book 13 is addressed "To the Roman Citizens" as follows:
"Gregory, servant of the servants of God, to his most beloved sons the Roman citizens. It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath-day. What else can I call these but preachers of Antichrist, who, when he comes, will cause the Sabbath-day is well as the Lord's-day to be kept free from all work. For, because he pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord's-day to be kept in reverence; and, because be compels the people to Judaize that be may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed.
For this which is said by the prophet, ye shall bring in no burden through your gates on the Sabbath-day (Jer. 17:24), could be held to as long as it was lawful for the law to be observed according to the letter. But after that the grace of Almighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ has appeared, the commandments of the law which were spoken figuratively cannot be kept according to the letter. For, if anyone says that this about the Sabbath is to be kept, he must needs say that carnal sacrifices are to be offered; he must say too that the commandment about the circumcision of the body is still to be retained. But let him hear the Apostle Paul saying in opposition to him. If ye be circumcised, Christ profiteth you nothing. (Gal. 5: 2.)
We therefore accept spiritually, and hold spiritually this which is written about the Sabbath. For the Sabbath means rest. But we have the true Sabbath in our Redeemer Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ. And who so acknowledges the light of faith in Him, if he draws the sins of concupiscence through his eyes into his soul, he introduces burdens through the gates on the Sabbath-day. We introduce, then, no burden through the gates on the Sabbath-day if we draw no weights of sin through the bodily senses to the soul. For we read that the same our Lord and Redeemer did many works on the Sabbath-day, so that he reproved the Jews, saying, Which of you doth not loose his ox or his ass on the Sabbath-day, and lead him away to watering. (Luke 13:15?) If, then, the very Truth in person commanded that the Sabbath should not be kept according to the letter, whoso keeps the rest of the Sabbath according to the letter of the law, whom else does he contradict but the Truth himself?
Another thing also has been brought to my knowledge; namely that it has been preached to you by perverse men that no one ought to wash on the Lords-day. And indeed if anyone craves to wash for luxury and pleasure, neither on any other day do we allow this to be done. But if it is for bodily need, neither on the Lord's-day do we forbid it. For it is written, No man ever hated his own flesh but nourisheth it and cherisheth it. (Ephe. 5: 29.) And again it is written, Make not provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof. (Romans 13:14.) He, then, who forbids provision for the flesh in the lusts thereof certainly allows it in the needs thereof. For, if it is sin to wash the body on the Lord's-day, neither ought the face to be washed on that day. But if this is allowed for a part of the body, why is it denied for the whole body when need requires? On the Lord's-day, however, there should be a cessation of earthly labor, and attention given in every way to prayers so that if anything is done negligently during the six days, it may be expiated by supplications on the day of the Lord's resurrection. (Epistles, Book 13, Epistle 1, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 13, p. 92.)
Thus appears an unbroken chain of evidence, showing that the Sabbath was generally observed by the Christian church for centuries after Christ. Its decline was more rapid in the Western or Romanized branch of the church, where it was made a sorrowful fast, and where no-Sabbathism was pushed to the front. The Eastern church, less corrupted by Romish influences, retained the Sabbath more nearly after the New Testament conception. Let it be borne in mind also that the writers quoted in this chapter wrote after the rupture between the Jewish and the Pagan elements in the church, which began to occur at the opening of the second century. The evidence here presented shows that even in the West the Sabbath continued to hold its place as late as the seventh century, although condemned by the Catholic church and legislated against. With such facts within the reach of every student of the Sabbath question, it is difficult to understand how men can repeat the assertion so frequently made, that the Sabbath was not observed by Christians after the resurrection of Christ. Inexcusable ignorance, or worse, is the only explanation in such a case
: AmoThe Scribes and Pharisees claimed Abraham for their father, you claim to be of the original church which began in Jerusalem.
The promise made to the Church by Jesus Himself, as per Matthew 16:18, is a promise that was made to the leadership of Israel in the flesh, i.e. the Scribes and Pharisees (Sanhedrin). Therefore your comparison of the two is a false equivocation.
: AmoWhat church boasts more than any other of being the original, than the Church of Rome?
Since the Church didn't start in Rome but in Jerusalem, the Church of Rome can't boast of being the original Church.
: AmoEven if you won't admit you are of the Church of Rome, your use of her tactics and false claims ties you to her.
You're free to believe whatever you wish, of course, but I'm not Roman Catholic.
: AmoConformity to the teachings of Christ and the apostles recorded for us in the New Testament, is the only rule and evidence of authentic Christianity.
No Amo, rather it's conformity to
your interpretation of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles that is
your only rule for determining where authentic Christianity is. You have set yourself up as the judge of the Church, passing judgment on her and finding her wanting because she doesn't teach what
you think she should teach. The original Church is found in the city where it all started, namely Jerusalem. But since you disagree with what that Church teaches you judge it as apostate and not the Church at all! This is about
you Amo, not what Christ or His holy Apostles taught. It is
your pride of opinion that keeps
you from Christ's Church.
: AmoSo, you are testifying that you are not Catholic, or are Catholic but do not agree with the teachings of the church. Is this correct?
Depends. What "church" are you be talking about here?
: AmoYet you are the one dodging the questions above by your above accusation. This accusation coming from one who will not even answer the question of what denomination they belong to.
Desperate attempt by a desperate person is desperately obvious. Again, a classic attempt to evade the discussion at hand, by turning the focus on one's opponent rather than on the arguments.
: AmoYour arguments have already been addressed and proved to be built upon faulty premise.
Ah, but disagreement with one's opponent does not proof make, Amo. No, you must continue to show why my arguments are wrong. If they are wrong, then I will amend them, as I'm certainly aware that I'm not infallible. However, you haven't done this satisfactorily yet. So, please, leave off from your inquiry regarding my affiliation that you seem so obsessed with, and get back to the argument at hand!
: AmoSince you won't directly answer that question, I suppose we can go another rout. Do you believe the following testimony from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
What the Roman Catholic Church teaches or doesn't teach is of no concern to me regarding our arguments Amo. All I'm concerned with in our arguments is what do the scriptures teach.
: AmoIf you do believe the above statement and are Roman Catholic, then your arguments are not in line with your church's teachings. You are either arguing things you yourself do not even believe, or you reject the teachings of your own denomination. Which is it?
This all must be truly frustrating for you Amo. Truly.
: AmoIf you don't believe it and are not Roman Catholic, then you are at odds with about a billion people who also claim they are the original Church.
Well, since you don't believe it and are not Roman Catholic yourself, then you're at odds with about a billion people. But I doubt you lose any sleep over it. Or am I wrong?
: AmoNone of whom ever even addressed anything like what you propose regarding the fourth commandment.
Really Amo? I'm the very first one to articulate that Christ fulfilled the sabbath by resting in the tomb on Holy Saturday from all of His bodily labor, keeping the sabbath perfectly in His death; and that we enter into His sabbath rest through baptism into His death, being raised to newness of life, resting always from our works of sin and evil, and living in righteousness toward God? You give me way too much credit, Amo.
: AmoAll SDA's pretty much agree that working for a living on the Sabbath is not resting according to the commandment. That still leaves a whole lot to be decided by the individual regarding what one should or should not do on the Sabbath, and opinions vary widely. Each must decide for themselves according to their own understanding and or circumstance. Some must work their normal jobs on Sabbath as well. Doctors, nurses, police, military, and such can't just shut down on Sabbath. These people must work these details out on their own as I did when in the military. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear while perfectly observing the Sabbath that a list of do's and don'ts regarding it is missing the point. The commandment itself does no such thing.
If only you had this most charitable spirit toward those who are not Seventh-day Adventists. But alas, if the accuser of the brethren himself doesn't have a charitable spirit toward us, then I shouldn't expect that you would either.
: AmoI don't need or depend upon the laws accusing Sabbath keepers of Judaizing to prove the existence of seventh day Christian Sabbath keepers. It is historical fact, which you simply deny. The laws mentioned though, do reveal that there were still Christian Sabbath keepers when they were given. I don't know how many there were that mentioned Judaizing, that would require some study. Those that I do have readily available though, do again as suggested, reveal that Christians were still observing the seventh day Sabbath when they were passed or declared.
Well, you said there were, and I quote, "
many early Sunday laws specifically addressed not working on Sabbaths as Judaizing", and that this, again I quote, "reveals that
many were still doing so which the apostate church was trying to stop." Now, when you're challenged to provide proof of your assertion, you say you're not sure how many. Perhaps then, Amo, if you're not sure of something you shouldn't make declarations that appear as though you're certain. That would be wisdom.
The fact of the matter is that there weren't "many early Sunday laws". There were times when the Church condemned Judaizing, but that extends as far back as the New Testament itself (cf. the book of Galatians, Acts 15, etc.). And yes, there have always been people doing things contrary to the Church's teaching, as there are today. These practices were variously condemned by the Church since they could lead people away from Christ and the Gospel. Keeping the sabbath in the manner of the Jews, by abstaining from work because one thinks it is a sin to work on that day, leads a person away from Christ and His fulfillment of the sabbath. It places a person under the burden of the law which cannot justify anyone in the sight of God. It counts the blood of the New Covenant as an unclean thing. It destroys the reality that Christ has set us free from the ministry of death and condemnation that was written and engraved on stone (cf. 2 Corinthians 3:7,9). After all, if a person keeps the sabbath by not working on Saturday
because they think that they will incur sin if they do work, then they are keeping the sabbath
in order not to sin, and thus attempting to establish
their own righteousness in the eyes of God. And then this belief of working on the sabbath being sinful leads to the natural consequence of them judging their brothers and sisters just as the Seventh-day Adventists have done since their beginning. It leads to nothing good and everything bad and evil. Thus, for a Christian to Judaize by not working on the sabbath due to perceived sin if they do leads to apostasy from Christ Himself. This is why the Church in her wisdom and love condemned Judaizing, because it endangers a person's salvation.
: AmoThe Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)
The above decree put forth by an apostate "Christian" Synod, declares authority to cut people who keep the seventh day Sabbath off from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself. Apart from being a blasphemous statement presuming authority which belongs to Christ alone, it reveals that there were Christians still keeping the seventh day Sabbath. These for-runners of the system of anti-Christ were far more guilty of sin in presuming authority to cut people off people from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, than anyone keeping the fourth commandment in their day. The decree reveals the extent of apostasy some "Christians" had reached by the fourth century.
Ignoring for a moment your use of quotation marks around the word Christian, which shows your uncharitable and judgmental spirit, this decree was from a local council held in Laodicea, and is not hardly referred to by anyone besides sabbatarians, who obviously have an axe to grind. Perhaps you should quote from an ecumenical council instead to see what the Church across the world held to, like what the second Nicene council said about this in AD 787:
: 7th Ecumenical Council, Canon 8Since some of those who come from the religion of the Hebrews mistakenly think to make a mockery of Christ who is God, pretending to become Christians, but denying Christ in private by both secretly continuing to observe the sabbath and maintaining other Jewish practices, we decree that they shall not be received to communion or at prayer or into the church, but rather let them openly be Hebrews according to their own religion; they should not baptize their children or buy, or enter into possession of, a slave. But if one of them makes his conversion with a sincere faith and heart, and pronounces his confession wholeheartedly, disclosing their practices and objects in the hope that others may be refuted and corrected, such a person should be welcomed and baptized along with his children, and care should be taken that they abandon Hebrew practices. However if they are not of this sort, they should certainly not be welcomed.
Do you see the reason given why Judaizing is condemned by the Church? It's just as I said before. People who do this are denying Christ. And how are they denying Christ? By living as though Christ has not set us free from the condemnation of the law. After all, they are keeping the sabbath, as well as the other practices in the law,
because they think they are sinning if they don't. This is called condemnation, and this is what the law becomes for the one who thinks this way. So they try to keep the sabbath and the other practices
in order not to sin, thus attempting to establish
their own righteousness apart from Christ. This is the sin, the blasphemy, because it's the turning away from Christ and His righteousness.
: AmoPope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :
"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?" Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.
Here we have the testimony of anti-Christ himself as the leader of the system of anti-Christ still addressing the so called problem of Christians observing the seventh day Sabbath some time between 590 and 604.
Tell me Amo, is it ever right for someone to forbid others from doing anything on the sabbath? Is this what Adventists practice, going around and forcibly preventing others from doing anything on the sabbath? After all, that's what the word "forbid" means, to forcibly prevent something from happening. Is this what Adventists do, Amo? Is this the Christian thing to do? Of course not, because it's not right, and you know it. And since it's not right, then why do you condemn Pope St. Gregory the Great as being antichrist for condemning that which even Seventh-Adventists wouldn't engage in??
: AmoSince you apparently think highly of Irenaeus, what do you say of his following refutation of youir false accusations that Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath commandment?
"For the Lord vindicated Abraham's posterity by loosing them from bondage and calling them to salvation, as he did in the case of the woman whom be healed, saying openly to those who had not faith like Abraham, "ye hypocrites, doth not each one of you on the Sabbath-days loose his ox or his ass, and lead him away to watering? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath-days?" It is clear, therefore, that he loosed and vivified those who believed in him as Abraham did, doing nothing contrary to the law when he healed upon the Sabbath-day. For the law did not prohibit men from being healed upon the Sabbaths: [on the contrary,] it even circumcised them upon that day, and gave command that the offices should be performed by the priests for the people; yea it did not disallow the healing even of dumb animals. Both at Siloam and on frequent subsequent occasions, did he perform cures upon the Sabbath; and for this reason many used to resort to him on the Sabbath-days. For the law commanded them to abstain from every servile work, that is from all grasping after wealth which is procured by trading and by other worldly business; but it exhorted them to attend to the exercises of the soul, which consist in reflection, and to addresses of a beneficial kind for their neighbor's benefit. And, therefore, the Lord reproveth those who unjustly blamed him for having healed upon the Sabbath-days. For he did not make void, but fulfilled the law, by performing the offices of the high priest, propitiating God for men, and cleansing the lepers, healing the sick, and himself suffering death, that exiled man might go forth from condemnation, and might return without fear to his own inheritance." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 4, chapter 8, Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 5, p. 397.
I'll bet you did not know that Irenaeus refutes your false claims that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath commandment, did you? You quoted him elsewhere. What do you think of his above words, which contradict your testimony, and are much the same as my arguments against your testimony?
You would've lost that bet, Amo, since I've read his
Against Heresies and know about this quote of his. Does he contradict what I've said? Yes and no. Yes he disagrees with me in these instances he mentions, but he agrees with me that the disciples transgressed the sabbath when they plucked the ears of corn to eat in Matthew 12:1 (cf.
Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 8, Paragraph 3), but they were blameless in doing so. Furthermore, and more importantly, he agrees with me in my points regarding the meaning of the sabbath for the Christian. Hear what he says:
: St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 16, Paragraphs 1,2But the Sabbaths taught that we should continue day by day in God's service. "For we have been counted," says the Apostle Paul, "all the day long as sheep for the slaughter; " that is, consecrated [to God], and ministering continually to our faith, and persevering in it, and abstaining from all avarice, and not acquiring or possessing treasures upon earth. Moreover, the Sabbath of God, that is, the kingdom, was, as it were, indicated by created things; in which [kingdom], the man who shall have persevered in serving God shall, in a state of rest, partake of God's table.
2. And that man was not justified by these things, but that they were given as a sign to the people, this fact shows,-that Abraham himself, without circumcision and without observance of Sabbaths, "believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God."
And,
: St. Irenaeus, The Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, Chapter 95Since, then, by this calling life has been given (us), and God has summed up again for Himself in us the faith of Abraham, we ought not to turn back any more--I mean, to the first legislation (i.e. Moses). For we have received the Lord of the Law, the Son of God; and by faith in Him we learn to love God with all our heart, and our neighbour as ourselves. Now the love of God is far from all sin, and love to the neighbour worketh no ill to the neighbour.
Wherefore also we need not the Law as a tutor. Behold, with the Father we speak, and in His presence we stand, being
children in malice , and grown strong in all righteousness and soberness. For no longer shall the Law say,
Do not commit adultery, to him who has no desire at all for another's wife; and
Thou shalt not kill, to him who has put away from himself all anger and enmity; (and) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's field or ox or ass, to those who have no care at all for earthly things, but store up the heavenly fruits: nor
An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, to him who counts no man his enemy, but all men his neighbors, and therefore cannot stretch out his hand at all for vengeance. It will not require tithes of him who consecrates all his possessions to God, leaving father and mother and all his kindred, and following the Word of God. And there will be no command to remain idle for one day of rest, to him who perpetually keeps sabbath, that is to say, who in the temple of God, which is man's body, does service to God, and in every hour works righteousness.
So, while St. Irenaeus does disagree with me on some things regarding the sabbath passages of the Gospels, he and I are in agreement in the Christian understanding of the sabbath. So no, Amo, St. Irenaeus wasn't the silver bullet against me you were hoping he was. Try again.
: AmoWhy do you always add the word historic to church, which the scriptures never do?
Simple. Because the Church began as an actual physical and historical (meaning existing in actual history) community in the actual physical and historical city of Jerusalem. And that Church which has existed as an actual physical and historical community in the actual physical and historical city of Jerusalem is still there. It hasn't disappeared Amo, much to your consternation, I'm sure. Deny it all you want, but the Church is still there. It still exists. And Christ said the gates of hades (i.e. corruption) would not overcome it.
: AmoThe church is unquestionably referred to as the temple of God in the NT. There is no other temple of the NT. You may of course enlighten us, if this is wrong. Please do.
Well Amo, I count four temples in the New Testament: The historic temple in Jerusalem (cf. Acts 2:46), the temple of our body (cf. 1 Corinthians 6:19), the spiritual temple of the body of Christ (cf. Ephesians 2:20-21), and the temple in heaven (cf. Revelation 7:15). Since the temple in heaven is where God dwells, it would be impossible for St. Paul to be referring to that one. It is equally impossible for St. Paul to be referring to the temple of our body or the spiritual temple of the body of Christ which is the Church, because the Church is not a place but a people. So, out of these four temples, the only one that could possibly have been referred to by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the historic temple in Jerusalem which was destroyed by the Romans in AD 70. Either his prophecy was fulfilled before then, or, as quite a few believe, the temple will be rebuilt and the man of sin will be revealed at a future time.
: AmoThe seventh day Sabbath was not done away with by Christ or the apostles, it was replaced over time by apostate "Christianity".
You're right Amo, it wasn't done away with by Christ. It was fulfilled by Him in His death. And we can enter into His sabbath rest by dying with Him in baptism, and being raised to newness of life to live continually in righteousness toward Him, keeping His sabbath perpetually, just as His sabbath law in Moses's writings was meant to teach. There is nothing forbidding you from entering into His rest, Amo, except your unbelief. May God free you of this burden you've placed upon yourself. I believe He will, because His mercy never fails!
: Amo Sun Apr 30, 2017 - 07:02:26
: Michael2012 Sun Apr 30, 2017 - 03:41:30
Have you not heard about Jesus and his disciples concerning the Sabbath of the Jews?
Luke 6
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
So, we see clearly what Jesus and his disciples did on the Sabbath.
Look what Jesus said concerning the Sabbath and Himself.
5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Is Jesus the Lord of the SDA Christians, and of Amo?
If so, will you have gone with Christ in plucking the ears of corn on a Sabbath day?
I'm sure you would have. By doing so, will God condemn you?
Now, will you have gone with Christ on a Sunday, or any other day, and do no work and rest with Christ, and worship God?
I'm sure you would have also.
You see how it is now with those whose Lord is Christ and have faith in him?
And so, "Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians".
Far from it.
In a different sense, yes, if worship is not in faith and not in the Spirit. All then is in vain.
It is not possible to worship on Sunday in any other fashion than any other day, since their is no word of God concerning doing so to have faith in. It may be observed by man made tradition alone. It is absolutely possible to observe the seventh day
Sabbath by faith in God's word because God's word speaks of it many times over and commands the same in God's commandments. It can't get any simpler. Choose to worship and obey God, or choose to worship and obey man, or yourself basically. Sunday worship has been forced upon humanity many times over throughout history by those who would exalt man made traditions above the word of God and is forced upon many still today. All the while these same people willing to force others to observe their tradition, ignore the plain testimony and command of God concerning the seventh day. These things should not be so.
Below is what I posted on the other thread which is closely related to this discussion:
I got this from the https://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/living/the-sabbath/ (https://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/living/the-sabbath/)
"The gracious Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.
The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Exod. 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev.23:32; Deut. 5:12-15; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Ezek. 20:12, 20; Matt. 12:1-12; Mark 1:32; Luke 4:16; Heb. 4:1-11.)"
Consider the cited verses:
Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command.
Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.
But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.
Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.
Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.
With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.
Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command.
It is just as that created on every other day, God spoke, and the thing was. All that He created is still here, and so is the day which He blessed and sanctified. God alone can undo, that which He has done. All that He commanded and spoke into existence remains to this day by His own design, sustenance, and intervention.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light............................................
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.................................................
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so..............................................................................
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so....................................................
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.................................................
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.............................................................
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so................................................................
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them................................................
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so....................
Gen 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
In all of the above, God spoke the command, and it was so. This includes His blessing upon the seventh day, and His sanctification of that day. Humanity cannot change this. The day is blessed and sanctified and will be until God Himself changes that. Isaiah testifies that the sabbath will be kept in the new heaven and new earth, how say you and others that it no longer is? You presume authority which is infinitely beyond your grasp. You cannot change or do away with that which God has established.
Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.
But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.
Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.
Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.
Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance? Baloney! Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath? You have simply chosen another day. Correct if I am wrong. Shall I produce the statements from Sunday keepers to the effect that they are keeping what they consider to be the new sabbath-day?
Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Which statement you and other Sunday keepers do always completely ignore. Besides this the NT admonishes us to keep the commandments of God all the way through to the end. You are simply caught up in the justification of your own views which contradict scripture, which results in devising faulty doctrines which make the scriptures contradict themselves. Such things can lead no where else. The scriptures are truth. The moment one departs from the truth and attempts to use scripture to back them up, they bear testimony that the scriptures contradict themselves. It can be no other way. Apart from this, Isaiah spoke of the sabbath as a blessing to both Jew and Gentile even during the old covenant, and in reference to the new covenant you speak of in which others besides the Jews would be gathered together unto God. Observe-
Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.
You are correct, it is about entering His rest. Which is exactly what the seventh day sabbath is a sign of. Which is exactly why it is brought up in the verses you are speaking of. Which is exactly why those who keep it, do so by faith in the God of creation and redemption. It is a weekly reminder of our proper relation to our Creator and Redeemer. It has not been done away with. It was established at creation for humanity before the fall, reiterated by God again for fallen humanity who wanted and accepted God's salvation during the old covenant, kept by way of example by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as He established salvation and the new covenant, and will be kept in the new heaven and new earth by the saved after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. This is the testimony of scripture which you deny in your rejection of the fourth commandment of God.
.
Genesis 2:1-3 does NOT say that God blessed the 7th day on that 7th day.
The promotion of saturday worship will be the down fall of many who say they are Christians but are not.
They are putting their faith in the day rather than Christ.
: current occupant2 Sat May 06, 2017 - 15:54:28
.
Genesis 2:1-3 does NOT say that God blessed the 7th day on that 7th day.
The promotion of saturday worship will be the down fall of many who say they are Christians but are not.
They are putting their faith in the day rather than Christ.
Another lie and false accusation. My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ created, sustains, redeemed, and continues to intercede for all of humanity. He is all in all, and Lord of the Sabbath.
The observance of the seventh day Sabbath is therefore a sign in these last days especially, that one is a true worshiper of the true God. It is a sign that those who observe it believe that God is the creator of this world in and through his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (Exo. 20:8-11, & John 1:1-3 & 14). That He sustains this world and all life in it, in and through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ (Col. 1: 16&17). That He has saved this world in rebellion in and through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and there is salvation in no other (John 3:16, & Acts 4:12). That salvation comes to the believer by entering into God's rest in and through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. Which very thing the Sabbath itself is a sign of (Matt. 11:28&29, & Heb. 4). That He has provided continual intercession for all of humanity in and through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ (Heb. 4:14-16, & Heb. 7:22-28). That He will sanctify, yes make holy, those who have faith in Him in and through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. Which thing also the Sabbath is a sign of (Exo. 31:12-18, John 17:17-19, Acts 26:15-18, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, Heb. 10:7-17). That all of the above was and is according to the eternal purpose of God in and through His Son Jesus Christ. That is in the creation, preservation, and redemption of this world (Eph. 3:9-12).
The Sabbath is a sign that those who observe it believe that Jesus Christ is all in all. That He created the world. He sustains the world. He has redeemed the world. He ever liveth to make intercession for the world. He sanctifies His own in the world through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whom he sends (John 14:26, 15:26&27). He came to this world as one of us, and is our example for living. He is the living word of God. As he himself has said "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matt. 4:4).
Those who observe the seventh day Sabbath, do so strictly by faith in the word of God. There is nothing about the seventh day that separates it from any of the rest, save the word of God pertaining to it. Nothing out of the ordinary happens on this day to anyone accept the believer. The believer accepts by faith, that the day is blessed and holy, and therefore acts accordingly. The result is first the exaltation of God, by the obedience of those who submit to His rightful and trustworthy authority. The second, is the establishment of that authority in the life of the believer, and the essential reminder to the believer of their proper place in relation to our infinite God. Thus the day is a reminder that God is all in all to those whom He has created. A day to set aside all else, and rest in the word of our creator, sustainer, and redeemer. The observance of the seventh day Sabbath is a perfect example of faith in God's word, in action. We will close this chapter with the message of the first angel.
Revelation 14 6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come:
and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
: DMA Tue May 02, 2017 - 15:16:35
: AmoThe Scribes and Pharisees claimed Abraham for their father, you claim to be of the original church which began in Jerusalem.
The promise made to the Church by Jesus Himself, as per Matthew 16:18, is a promise that was made to the leadership of Israel in the flesh, i.e. the Scribes and Pharisees (Sanhedrin). Therefore your comparison of the two is a false equivocation.
: AmoWhat church boasts more than any other of being the original, than the Church of Rome?
Since the Church didn't start in Rome but in Jerusalem, the Church of Rome can't boast of being the original Church.
: AmoEven if you won't admit you are of the Church of Rome, your use of her tactics and false claims ties you to her.
You're free to believe whatever you wish, of course, but I'm not Roman Catholic.
: AmoConformity to the teachings of Christ and the apostles recorded for us in the New Testament, is the only rule and evidence of authentic Christianity.
No Amo, rather it's conformity to your interpretation of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles that is your only rule for determining where authentic Christianity is. You have set yourself up as the judge of the Church, passing judgment on her and finding her wanting because she doesn't teach what you think she should teach. The original Church is found in the city where it all started, namely Jerusalem. But since you disagree with what that Church teaches you judge it as apostate and not the Church at all! This is about you Amo, not what Christ or His holy Apostles taught. It is your pride of opinion that keeps you from Christ's Church.
: AmoSo, you are testifying that you are not Catholic, or are Catholic but do not agree with the teachings of the church. Is this correct?
Depends. What "church" are you be talking about here?
: AmoYet you are the one dodging the questions above by your above accusation. This accusation coming from one who will not even answer the question of what denomination they belong to.
Desperate attempt by a desperate person is desperately obvious. Again, a classic attempt to evade the discussion at hand, by turning the focus on one's opponent rather than on the arguments.
: AmoYour arguments have already been addressed and proved to be built upon faulty premise.
Ah, but disagreement with one's opponent does not proof make, Amo. No, you must continue to show why my arguments are wrong. If they are wrong, then I will amend them, as I'm certainly aware that I'm not infallible. However, you haven't done this satisfactorily yet. So, please, leave off from your inquiry regarding my affiliation that you seem so obsessed with, and get back to the argument at hand!
: AmoSince you won't directly answer that question, I suppose we can go another rout. Do you believe the following testimony from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
What the Roman Catholic Church teaches or doesn't teach is of no concern to me regarding our arguments Amo. All I'm concerned with in our arguments is what do the scriptures teach.
: AmoIf you do believe the above statement and are Roman Catholic, then your arguments are not in line with your church's teachings. You are either arguing things you yourself do not even believe, or you reject the teachings of your own denomination. Which is it?
This all must be truly frustrating for you Amo. Truly.
: AmoIf you don't believe it and are not Roman Catholic, then you are at odds with about a billion people who also claim they are the original Church.
Well, since you don't believe it and are not Roman Catholic yourself, then you're at odds with about a billion people. But I doubt you lose any sleep over it. Or am I wrong?
: AmoNone of whom ever even addressed anything like what you propose regarding the fourth commandment.
Really Amo? I'm the very first one to articulate that Christ fulfilled the sabbath by resting in the tomb on Holy Saturday from all of His bodily labor, keeping the sabbath perfectly in His death; and that we enter into His sabbath rest through baptism into His death, being raised to newness of life, resting always from our works of sin and evil, and living in righteousness toward God? You give me way too much credit, Amo.
: AmoAll SDA's pretty much agree that working for a living on the Sabbath is not resting according to the commandment. That still leaves a whole lot to be decided by the individual regarding what one should or should not do on the Sabbath, and opinions vary widely. Each must decide for themselves according to their own understanding and or circumstance. Some must work their normal jobs on Sabbath as well. Doctors, nurses, police, military, and such can't just shut down on Sabbath. These people must work these details out on their own as I did when in the military. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear while perfectly observing the Sabbath that a list of do's and don'ts regarding it is missing the point. The commandment itself does no such thing.
If only you had this most charitable spirit toward those who are not Seventh-day Adventists. But alas, if the accuser of the brethren himself doesn't have a charitable spirit toward us, then I shouldn't expect that you would either.
: AmoI don't need or depend upon the laws accusing Sabbath keepers of Judaizing to prove the existence of seventh day Christian Sabbath keepers. It is historical fact, which you simply deny. The laws mentioned though, do reveal that there were still Christian Sabbath keepers when they were given. I don't know how many there were that mentioned Judaizing, that would require some study. Those that I do have readily available though, do again as suggested, reveal that Christians were still observing the seventh day Sabbath when they were passed or declared.
Well, you said there were, and I quote, "many early Sunday laws specifically addressed not working on Sabbaths as Judaizing", and that this, again I quote, "reveals that many were still doing so which the apostate church was trying to stop." Now, when you're challenged to provide proof of your assertion, you say you're not sure how many. Perhaps then, Amo, if you're not sure of something you shouldn't make declarations that appear as though you're certain. That would be wisdom.
The fact of the matter is that there weren't "many early Sunday laws". There were times when the Church condemned Judaizing, but that extends as far back as the New Testament itself (cf. the book of Galatians, Acts 15, etc.). And yes, there have always been people doing things contrary to the Church's teaching, as there are today. These practices were variously condemned by the Church since they could lead people away from Christ and the Gospel. Keeping the sabbath in the manner of the Jews, by abstaining from work because one thinks it is a sin to work on that day, leads a person away from Christ and His fulfillment of the sabbath. It places a person under the burden of the law which cannot justify anyone in the sight of God. It counts the blood of the New Covenant as an unclean thing. It destroys the reality that Christ has set us free from the ministry of death and condemnation that was written and engraved on stone (cf. 2 Corinthians 3:7,9). After all, if a person keeps the sabbath by not working on Saturday because they think that they will incur sin if they do work, then they are keeping the sabbath in order not to sin, and thus attempting to establish their own righteousness in the eyes of God. And then this belief of working on the sabbath being sinful leads to the natural consequence of them judging their brothers and sisters just as the Seventh-day Adventists have done since their beginning. It leads to nothing good and everything bad and evil. Thus, for a Christian to Judaize by not working on the sabbath due to perceived sin if they do leads to apostasy from Christ Himself. This is why the Church in her wisdom and love condemned Judaizing, because it endangers a person's salvation.
: AmoThe Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)
The above decree put forth by an apostate "Christian" Synod, declares authority to cut people who keep the seventh day Sabbath off from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself. Apart from being a blasphemous statement presuming authority which belongs to Christ alone, it reveals that there were Christians still keeping the seventh day Sabbath. These for-runners of the system of anti-Christ were far more guilty of sin in presuming authority to cut people off people from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, than anyone keeping the fourth commandment in their day. The decree reveals the extent of apostasy some "Christians" had reached by the fourth century.
Ignoring for a moment your use of quotation marks around the word Christian, which shows your uncharitable and judgmental spirit, this decree was from a local council held in Laodicea, and is not hardly referred to by anyone besides sabbatarians, who obviously have an axe to grind. Perhaps you should quote from an ecumenical council instead to see what the Church across the world held to, like what the second Nicene council said about this in AD 787:
: 7th Ecumenical Council, Canon 8Since some of those who come from the religion of the Hebrews mistakenly think to make a mockery of Christ who is God, pretending to become Christians, but denying Christ in private by both secretly continuing to observe the sabbath and maintaining other Jewish practices, we decree that they shall not be received to communion or at prayer or into the church, but rather let them openly be Hebrews according to their own religion; they should not baptize their children or buy, or enter into possession of, a slave. But if one of them makes his conversion with a sincere faith and heart, and pronounces his confession wholeheartedly, disclosing their practices and objects in the hope that others may be refuted and corrected, such a person should be welcomed and baptized along with his children, and care should be taken that they abandon Hebrew practices. However if they are not of this sort, they should certainly not be welcomed.
Do you see the reason given why Judaizing is condemned by the Church? It's just as I said before. People who do this are denying Christ. And how are they denying Christ? By living as though Christ has not set us free from the condemnation of the law. After all, they are keeping the sabbath, as well as the other practices in the law, because they think they are sinning if they don't. This is called condemnation, and this is what the law becomes for the one who thinks this way. So they try to keep the sabbath and the other practices in order not to sin, thus attempting to establish their own righteousness apart from Christ. This is the sin, the blasphemy, because it's the turning away from Christ and His righteousness.
: AmoPope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :
"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?" Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.
Here we have the testimony of anti-Christ himself as the leader of the system of anti-Christ still addressing the so called problem of Christians observing the seventh day Sabbath some time between 590 and 604.
Tell me Amo, is it ever right for someone to forbid others from doing anything on the sabbath? Is this what Adventists practice, going around and forcibly preventing others from doing anything on the sabbath? After all, that's what the word "forbid" means, to forcibly prevent something from happening. Is this what Adventists do, Amo? Is this the Christian thing to do? Of course not, because it's not right, and you know it. And since it's not right, then why do you condemn Pope St. Gregory the Great as being antichrist for condemning that which even Seventh-Adventists wouldn't engage in??
: AmoSince you apparently think highly of Irenaeus, what do you say of his following refutation of youir false accusations that Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath commandment?
"For the Lord vindicated Abraham's posterity by loosing them from bondage and calling them to salvation, as he did in the case of the woman whom be healed, saying openly to those who had not faith like Abraham, "ye hypocrites, doth not each one of you on the Sabbath-days loose his ox or his ass, and lead him away to watering? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath-days?" It is clear, therefore, that he loosed and vivified those who believed in him as Abraham did, doing nothing contrary to the law when he healed upon the Sabbath-day. For the law did not prohibit men from being healed upon the Sabbaths: [on the contrary,] it even circumcised them upon that day, and gave command that the offices should be performed by the priests for the people; yea it did not disallow the healing even of dumb animals. Both at Siloam and on frequent subsequent occasions, did he perform cures upon the Sabbath; and for this reason many used to resort to him on the Sabbath-days. For the law commanded them to abstain from every servile work, that is from all grasping after wealth which is procured by trading and by other worldly business; but it exhorted them to attend to the exercises of the soul, which consist in reflection, and to addresses of a beneficial kind for their neighbor's benefit. And, therefore, the Lord reproveth those who unjustly blamed him for having healed upon the Sabbath-days. For he did not make void, but fulfilled the law, by performing the offices of the high priest, propitiating God for men, and cleansing the lepers, healing the sick, and himself suffering death, that exiled man might go forth from condemnation, and might return without fear to his own inheritance." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 4, chapter 8, Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 5, p. 397.
I'll bet you did not know that Irenaeus refutes your false claims that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath commandment, did you? You quoted him elsewhere. What do you think of his above words, which contradict your testimony, and are much the same as my arguments against your testimony?
You would've lost that bet, Amo, since I've read his Against Heresies and know about this quote of his. Does he contradict what I've said? Yes and no. Yes he disagrees with me in these instances he mentions, but he agrees with me that the disciples transgressed the sabbath when they plucked the ears of corn to eat in Matthew 12:1 (cf. Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 8, Paragraph 3), but they were blameless in doing so. Furthermore, and more importantly, he agrees with me in my points regarding the meaning of the sabbath for the Christian. Hear what he says:
: St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 16, Paragraphs 1,2But the Sabbaths taught that we should continue day by day in God's service. "For we have been counted," says the Apostle Paul, "all the day long as sheep for the slaughter; " that is, consecrated [to God], and ministering continually to our faith, and persevering in it, and abstaining from all avarice, and not acquiring or possessing treasures upon earth. Moreover, the Sabbath of God, that is, the kingdom, was, as it were, indicated by created things; in which [kingdom], the man who shall have persevered in serving God shall, in a state of rest, partake of God's table.
2. And that man was not justified by these things, but that they were given as a sign to the people, this fact shows,-that Abraham himself, without circumcision and without observance of Sabbaths, "believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God."
And,
: St. Irenaeus, The Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, Chapter 95Since, then, by this calling life has been given (us), and God has summed up again for Himself in us the faith of Abraham, we ought not to turn back any more--I mean, to the first legislation (i.e. Moses). For we have received the Lord of the Law, the Son of God; and by faith in Him we learn to love God with all our heart, and our neighbour as ourselves. Now the love of God is far from all sin, and love to the neighbour worketh no ill to the neighbour.
Wherefore also we need not the Law as a tutor. Behold, with the Father we speak, and in His presence we stand, being
children in malice , and grown strong in all righteousness and soberness. For no longer shall the Law say,
Do not commit adultery, to him who has no desire at all for another's wife; and
Thou shalt not kill, to him who has put away from himself all anger and enmity; (and) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's field or ox or ass, to those who have no care at all for earthly things, but store up the heavenly fruits: nor
An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, to him who counts no man his enemy, but all men his neighbors, and therefore cannot stretch out his hand at all for vengeance. It will not require tithes of him who consecrates all his possessions to God, leaving father and mother and all his kindred, and following the Word of God. And there will be no command to remain idle for one day of rest, to him who perpetually keeps sabbath, that is to say, who in the temple of God, which is man's body, does service to God, and in every hour works righteousness.
So, while St. Irenaeus does disagree with me on some things regarding the sabbath passages of the Gospels, he and I are in agreement in the Christian understanding of the sabbath. So no, Amo, St. Irenaeus wasn't the silver bullet against me you were hoping he was. Try again.
: AmoWhy do you always add the word historic to church, which the scriptures never do?
Simple. Because the Church began as an actual physical and historical (meaning existing in actual history) community in the actual physical and historical city of Jerusalem. And that Church which has existed as an actual physical and historical community in the actual physical and historical city of Jerusalem is still there. It hasn't disappeared Amo, much to your consternation, I'm sure. Deny it all you want, but the Church is still there. It still exists. And Christ said the gates of hades (i.e. corruption) would not overcome it.
: AmoThe church is unquestionably referred to as the temple of God in the NT. There is no other temple of the NT. You may of course enlighten us, if this is wrong. Please do.
Well Amo, I count four temples in the New Testament: The historic temple in Jerusalem (cf. Acts 2:46), the temple of our body (cf. 1 Corinthians 6:19), the spiritual temple of the body of Christ (cf. Ephesians 2:20-21), and the temple in heaven (cf. Revelation 7:15). Since the temple in heaven is where God dwells, it would be impossible for St. Paul to be referring to that one. It is equally impossible for St. Paul to be referring to the temple of our body or the spiritual temple of the body of Christ which is the Church, because the Church is not a place but a people. So, out of these four temples, the only one that could possibly have been referred to by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the historic temple in Jerusalem which was destroyed by the Romans in AD 70. Either his prophecy was fulfilled before then, or, as quite a few believe, the temple will be rebuilt and the man of sin will be revealed at a future time.
: AmoThe seventh day Sabbath was not done away with by Christ or the apostles, it was replaced over time by apostate "Christianity".
You're right Amo, it wasn't done away with by Christ. It was fulfilled by Him in His death. And we can enter into His sabbath rest by dying with Him in baptism, and being raised to newness of life to live continually in righteousness toward Him, keeping His sabbath perpetually, just as His sabbath law in Moses's writings was meant to teach. There is nothing forbidding you from entering into His rest, Amo, except your unbelief. May God free you of this burden you've placed upon yourself. I believe He will, because His mercy never fails!
This conversation is getting to long and twisted to even deal with. I no longer care what denomination you belong to, or to address the above twisted mess. You have proved nothing but your ability to confuse and twist scripture and the words of others.
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command.
It is just as that created on every other day, God spoke, and the thing was. All that He created is still here, and so is the day which He blessed and sanctified. God alone can undo, that which He has done. All that He commanded and spoke into existence remains to this day by His own design, sustenance, and intervention.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light............................................
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.................................................
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so..............................................................................
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so....................................................
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.................................................
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.............................................................
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so................................................................
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them................................................
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so....................
Gen 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
In all of the above, God spoke the command, and it was so. This includes His blessing upon the seventh day, and His sanctification of that day. Humanity cannot change this. The day is blessed and sanctified and will be until God Himself changes that. Isaiah testifies that the sabbath will be kept in the new heaven and new earth, how say you and others that it no longer is? You presume authority which is infinitely beyond your grasp. You cannot change or do away with that which God has established.
Nobody is saying that His blessing and sanctification upon the seventh day is no more. It remains to this day that, the day after He have finished His creation, He rested. That day, will forever be that day that God rested from all His work.
Do you find a law or command that God have given mankind to do in Gen 2:1-3? Obviously, there is none. And so, Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. What it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. It tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. It also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. It tells us the reason why God blessed and sanctified that day, which I quote:
"because that in it
he had rested from all his work which God created and made"
You see, God's rest, from all his work of creation, is what this day is about. It's not about us who are part of that which He created, nor is about creation's rest. God rested, not as one weary, but as one well-pleased with the instances of his own goodness and the manifestations of his own glory. And because of that, God blessed and sanctified that very day, has separated and distinguished it from the rest of the days, it being the day of God,s rest.
The seventh day is a blessed day, for God blessed it, and that which he blesses is blessed indeed. The seventh day is a holy day, for God has sanctified it. Now, there is but only one seventh day. It was the day after the last day of God's creative work. It is the day of God's rest.
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.
But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.
Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.
Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.
Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance? Baloney! Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath? You have simply chosen another day. Correct if I am wrong. Shall I produce the statements from Sunday keepers to the effect that they are keeping what they consider to be the new sabbath-day?
Amo: <<Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance?>>
I didn't, and I don't.
Amo: <<Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath?>>
Treat it as a sabbath? What do you mean by that? Please expound.
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Which statement you and other Sunday keepers do always completely ignore. Besides this the NT admonishes us to keep the commandments of God all the way through to the end. You are simply caught up in the justification of your own views which contradict scripture, which results in devising faulty doctrines which make the scriptures contradict themselves. Such things can lead no where else. The scriptures are truth. The moment one departs from the truth and attempts to use scripture to back them up, they bear testimony that the scriptures contradict themselves. It can be no other way. Apart from this, Isaiah spoke of the sabbath as a blessing to both Jew and Gentile even during the old covenant, and in reference to the new covenant you speak of in which others besides the Jews would be gathered together unto God. Observe-
Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Amo: <<Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.>>
That's right, Jesus kept the Sabbath, firstly in that he is born a Jew and is under the Law. Though, not in the manner and way that those under the Law keeps it. He kept it in spirit and in truth. He properly kept it, for He knows not only what the Sabbath is and is for, even so, He is the Lord of the Sabbath.
Nobody is saying that Jesus said that it is changed or that it is no more to be kept.
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.
You are correct, it is about entering His rest. Which is exactly what the seventh day sabbath is a sign of. Which is exactly why it is brought up in the verses you are speaking of. Which is exactly why those who keep it, do so by faith in the God of creation and redemption. It is a weekly reminder of our proper relation to our Creator and Redeemer. It has not been done away with. It was established at creation for humanity before the fall, reiterated by God again for fallen humanity who wanted and accepted God's salvation during the old covenant, kept by way of example by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as He established salvation and the new covenant, and will be kept in the new heaven and new earth by the saved after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. This is the testimony of scripture which you deny in your rejection of the fourth commandment of God.
Yes, Hebrews 4:1-11 is about entering God's rest, and not about some law, nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. I wonder why the SDA cited it in speaking about the 4th commandment in the SDA article I cited.
Meditate on this: Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
What does the verse tells you?
Amo: <<It was established at creation for humanity before the fall>>
What was established? The seventh day, or the 4th commandment?
: Michael2012 Sat May 06, 2017 - 23:44:28
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command.
It is just as that created on every other day, God spoke, and the thing was. All that He created is still here, and so is the day which He blessed and sanctified. God alone can undo, that which He has done. All that He commanded and spoke into existence remains to this day by His own design, sustenance, and intervention.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light............................................
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.................................................
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so..............................................................................
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so....................................................
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.................................................
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.............................................................
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so................................................................
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them................................................
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so....................
Gen 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
In all of the above, God spoke the command, and it was so. This includes His blessing upon the seventh day, and His sanctification of that day. Humanity cannot change this. The day is blessed and sanctified and will be until God Himself changes that. Isaiah testifies that the sabbath will be kept in the new heaven and new earth, how say you and others that it no longer is? You presume authority which is infinitely beyond your grasp. You cannot change or do away with that which God has established.
Nobody is saying that His blessing and sanctification upon the seventh day is no more. It remains to this day that, the day after He have finished His creation, He rested. That day, will forever be that day that God rested from all His work.
Do you find a law or command that God have given mankind to do in Gen 2:1-3? Obviously, there is none. And so, Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. What it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. It tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. It also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. It tells us the reason why God blessed and sanctified that day, which I quote:
"because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made"
You see, God's rest, from all his work of creation, is what this day is about. It's not about us who are part of that which He created, nor is about creation's rest. God rested, not as one weary, but as one well-pleased with the instances of his own goodness and the manifestations of his own glory. And because of that, God blessed and sanctified that very day, has separated and distinguished it from the rest of the days, it being the day of God,s rest.
The seventh day is a blessed day, for God blessed it, and that which he blesses is blessed indeed. The seventh day is a holy day, for God has sanctified it. Now, there is but only one seventh day. It was the day after the last day of God's creative work. It is the day of God's rest.
You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years. Then two thousand years later decided to make it a law that His people must observe with severe penalties for not doing so. Obviously very important to Him that they should keep this command no doubt, that they might remember who they really are in relation to Him. He gave these very same people the gospel of Jesus Christ in types and symbols through the sanctuary services, and particularly the sacrifices of the same which all pointed to their salvation through and in Christ. As the verses in Hebrews you have referred to before points out, they received the gospel also, but they refused to believe. Then when Jesus did come and die for them and the rest of humanity, He ended actual observance of the sabbath on the literal seventh day for at least another two thousand years I suppose, is this not correct? Replacing it with a deeper spiritual application every day, right? Then when we get to heaven, He will once again start sabbath observance for the saved according to the letter of the law as you would say I suppose, as scripture testifies. Yet you think I am the one who makes no sense.
You claim Jesus came to fulfill the law, apparently not establish it, ignoring the details of His own words regarding that very thing. He said the commandments shall not change one jot or tittle before heaven and earth pas, you say the fourth commandment has been completely changed regarding the observance of the literal day.
Definition of jot
: the least bit : iota
Definition of tittle
1 : a point or small sign used as a diacritical mark in writing or printing
2 : a very small part
So, which of our beliefs changes one of the commandments of God? Which one has people not observing a sabbath on the seventh day, while attending a church and worship service weekly on another day? Seems quite a bit like a change to me.
You think and teach that their was no sabbath or commandments to be kept by God's people before Israel, yet the scriptures testify of this very thing concerning Abraham, the father of Israel and all the saved as Paul himself testifies.
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Just what commandments, statutes, and laws do you think Abraham the father of Israel kept? Why would you presume sabbath observance was not among them? Even if you do, why would you presume to tell others they were wrong if they think so, when no details are provided?
Apart from this again, is the fact that most who believe in Sunday sacredness do not believe as you do. They believe that Sunday sacredness has replaced the fourth commandment sabbath. Do you argue with them, and try to convince them that they should not do so? Or do you sit beside them on Sunday mornings observing their sabbath?
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.
http://www.salvationarmy.org/ihq/ipssabbath (http://www.salvationarmy.org/ihq/ipssabbath)
In its recognition of Sunday as the Sabbath, The Salvation Army aligns itself with the custom of the Early Christian Church, which chose that day on which to commemorate and celebrate Christ's resurrection.
Principles
Within this historical Christian context, The Salvation Army holds that:
1. Sunday is 'a day of sacred assembly' (Leviticus 23:3) for corporate worship,
praise and prayer, to enrich the lives of believers and strengthen their fellowship one
with another and with God. It is also an opportunity for the gathering of families, friends and worshipping congregations.
2. Sunday is a time of resting in God apart from the anxieties and challenges of life. It is part of being human. As Scripture indicates, 'the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath' (Mark 2:27).
3. Keeping Sunday holy does not only entail the cessation of secular work for the purpose of honouring God, but also may include performing deeds of love and kindness toward fellow human beings. Jesus cautioned against legalism in the observance of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-28; Mark 3:4; Luke 13:10-17; John 5:1-15).
4. Observing Sunday as a day of rest is an evidence of our obedience to, and reverence for, God the Creator (Exodus 20:8-11).
http://www.baptist2baptist.net/b2barticle.asp?ID=251 (http://www.baptist2baptist.net/b2barticle.asp?ID=251)
So why do Christians speak of "the Lord's Day" and worship on Sunday rather than on Saturday? The answer to this important question lies in several biblical principles and practices rather than in any clear teaching or mandate of Scripture.
First, Christians need to understand that the principle of a day of rest after six days of work is rooted not in the law of Moses, but in creation. God was not tired. He needed no rest, yet he rested on the seventh day to provide a model for mankind. Jesus verified this when he taught that the Sabbath is a gracious gift of God given for the benefit of man (Mark 2:27). Since a day of rest is taught in creation and by Jesus, Christians should embrace the principle and observe a day of rest each week.
Second, even though we should observe a day of rest, we are not bound by the legal qualifications of the Sabbath as given in the law of Moses. That law was for national Israel and included precise definitions of just how much work could be allowed. The ancient Jews debated such matters as whether they could eat an egg that was laid on the Sabbath, or whether they could break a dead twig off a rose bush. Jesus ran up against this legalistic view of the Sabbath in his ministry.
Third, even though there is no clear teaching in Scripture that changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, there is unambiguous evidence that the early church met to worship on the first day of the week. Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday, which was the first work day of the Jewish week, and almost immediately thereafter the Bible records the church meeting on the evening of the first day of the week (John 20:19; Acts 20:7). In his teaching on giving, Paul instructs the Corinthians to receive the offering for the poor saints in Jerusalem on the first day of the week (1 Cor 16:2). Many scholars believe that John's phrase, "the Lord's Day," in Revelation 1:10 refers to the first day of the week as well.
Finally, since, like the early church, we commemorate the resurrection of Christ by engaging in corporate worship on the first day of the week, it is right and reasonable to also use this day for the day of rest in which we cease from labor that is not a work of necessity or of mercy. Individual issues and questions about whether or not we should engage in a game of touch football or watch television, etc., are best left to the individual conscience with the admonition that we strive for maximum conformity to the will and intention of God and not the minimum.
That is why Article 8 of the Baptist Faith and Message states simply and clearly, "The first day of the week is the Lord's Day. It is a Christian institution for regular observance. It commemorates the resurrection of Christ from the dead and should include exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private. Activities on the Lord's Day should be commensurate with the Christian's conscience under the Lordship of Jesus Christ."
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/the-lords-day?lang=eng (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/the-lords-day?lang=eng)
I confess that as a young boy, Sunday was not my favorite day. Grandfather shut down the action. We didn't have any transportation. We couldn't drive the car. He wouldn't even let us start the motor. We couldn't ride the horses, or the steers, or the sheep. It was the Sabbath, and by commandment, the animals also needed rest. We walked to Church and everywhere else we wanted to go. I can honestly say that we observed both the spirit and the letter of Sabbath worship.
By today's standards, perhaps Grandfather's interpretation of Sabbath day activities seems extreme, but something wonderful has been lost in our lives. To this day, I have been pondering to try to understand fully what has slipped away. Part of it was knowing that I was well on the Lord's side of the line. Another part was the feeling that Satan's influence was farther away. Mostly it was the reinforcement received by the spiritual power which was generated. We had the rich feeling that the spiritual "fulness of the earth" (D&C 59:16) was ours, as promised by the Lord in section 59 of the Doctrine and Covenants.
Ever since Adam's day the divine law of the Sabbath has been emphasized repeatedly over the centuries more than any other commandment. This long emphasis alone is an indication of its importance. In Genesis, we learn that God himself set the example for us in the creation of the earth:
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/681/resolution-on-the-christian-sabbath (http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/681/resolution-on-the-christian-sabbath)
1. That we renew our efforts to preserve the Christian sabbath and urge our people everywhere to abstain from purely secular and worldly engagements on the Lord's day.
2. That we especially deplore the wide use of the radio for advertising and for flippant jazz entertainment on the Lord's day, and we would favor legislation to prevent all Sunday advertising over the radio and all cheap vaudeville programs on Sunday.
http://www.houghtonstar.com/2013/12/07/students-and-the-recognition-of-the-sabbath/ (http://www.houghtonstar.com/2013/12/07/students-and-the-recognition-of-the-sabbath/)
https://cccdiscover.com/why-sunday-should-be-a-day-of-rest/ (https://cccdiscover.com/why-sunday-should-be-a-day-of-rest/)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity#Origin_of_Sunday_rest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity#Origin_of_Sunday_rest)
Apart from all of the above, there is the constant efforts of Sunday keepers to establish laws forcing all to honor their day. This speaks very loudly against what you teach. God's word has exalted a day to be observed, humanity has exalted a day to be observed. These two days represent two separate modes, systems, and God's to be worshiped. One demonstrates faith in God's word, the other demonstrates faith in mans traditions above the same.
: Michael2012 Sun May 07, 2017 - 01:02:13
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.
But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.
Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.
Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.
Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance? Baloney! Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath? You have simply chosen another day. Correct if I am wrong. Shall I produce the statements from Sunday keepers to the effect that they are keeping what they consider to be the new sabbath-day?
Amo: <<Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance?>>
I didn't, and I don't.
Amo: <<Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath?>>
Treat it as a sabbath? What do you mean by that? Please expound.
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Which statement you and other Sunday keepers do always completely ignore. Besides this the NT admonishes us to keep the commandments of God all the way through to the end. You are simply caught up in the justification of your own views which contradict scripture, which results in devising faulty doctrines which make the scriptures contradict themselves. Such things can lead no where else. The scriptures are truth. The moment one departs from the truth and attempts to use scripture to back them up, they bear testimony that the scriptures contradict themselves. It can be no other way. Apart from this, Isaiah spoke of the sabbath as a blessing to both Jew and Gentile even during the old covenant, and in reference to the new covenant you speak of in which others besides the Jews would be gathered together unto God. Observe-
Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Amo: <<Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.>>
That's right, Jesus kept the Sabbath, firstly in that he is born a Jew and is under the Law. Though, not in the manner and way that those under the Law keeps it. He kept it in spirit and in truth. He properly kept it, for He knows not only what the Sabbath is and is for, even so, He is the Lord of the Sabbath.
Nobody is saying that Jesus said that it is changed or that it is no more to be kept.
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.
You are correct, it is about entering His rest. Which is exactly what the seventh day sabbath is a sign of. Which is exactly why it is brought up in the verses you are speaking of. Which is exactly why those who keep it, do so by faith in the God of creation and redemption. It is a weekly reminder of our proper relation to our Creator and Redeemer. It has not been done away with. It was established at creation for humanity before the fall, reiterated by God again for fallen humanity who wanted and accepted God's salvation during the old covenant, kept by way of example by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as He established salvation and the new covenant, and will be kept in the new heaven and new earth by the saved after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. This is the testimony of scripture which you deny in your rejection of the fourth commandment of God.
Yes, Hebrews 4:1-11 is about entering God's rest, and not about some law, nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. I wonder why the SDA cited it in speaking about the 4th commandment in the SDA article I cited.
Meditate on this: Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
What does the verse tells you?
Amo: <<It was established at creation for humanity before the fall>>
What was established? The seventh day, or the 4th commandment?
People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again. Your testimony is false. True Christianity is the true spiritual Israel of God. Those who accept Christ are graft into the vine, not made of a separate vine. Christ is king of the Jews. The Jews who rejected Jesus Christ are not the Israel of God. The Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ are now the spiritual children of Abraham, the Israel of God. If you maintain the wall which Christ has broken down, you are none of His. If Jesus is your Lord, then follow Him.
: AmoThis conversation is getting to long and twisted to even deal with.
And yet you told me before,
: AmoIt takes what it takes. One of us is a liar preaching and teaching dangerous deception. It should be worth the time and effort to expose such. If we care to little to invest the time and effort necessary to combat the same, then perhaps we don't care enough.
::doh::
: AmoI no longer care what denomination you belong to
Well, that's good. Especially considering that it had zero relevance to our discussion.
: AmoYou have proved nothing but your ability to confuse and twist scripture and the words of others.
This is not for you to say Amo. On the contrary, those that read our conversation will be the judge of what, if anything, was proven or twisted.
: DMA Mon May 08, 2017 - 10:37:28
: AmoThis conversation is getting to long and twisted to even deal with.
And yet you told me before,
: AmoIt takes what it takes. One of us is a liar preaching and teaching dangerous deception. It should be worth the time and effort to expose such. If we care to little to invest the time and effort necessary to combat the same, then perhaps we don't care enough.
::doh::
: AmoI no longer care what denomination you belong to
Well, that's good. Especially considering that it had zero relevance to our discussion.
: AmoYou have proved nothing but your ability to confuse and twist scripture and the words of others.
This is not for you to say Amo. On the contrary, those that read our conversation will be the judge of what, if anything, was proven or twisted.
Yes and God will judge all according to the words which our Lord and Savior spoke.
Jn 12:44 Jesus cried and said,
He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.All the unending twist and turns of debate to justify our positions, when all we need to do is compare all that we profess to the words of Jesus Himself. If what we believe contradicts His testimony, then what we believe contradicts God. This is what all will be judged by.
: AmoYes and God will judge all according to the words which our Lord and Savior spoke.
Jn 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
All the unending twist and turns of debate to justify our positions, when all we need to do is compare all that we profess to the words of Jesus Himself. If what we believe contradicts His testimony, then what we believe contradicts God. This is what all will be judged by.
: 1 Corinthians 2:13-15These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
The natural man that St. Paul speaks of is the one who has set his mind upon earthly things rather than on spiritual things. He believes that true worship of God consists of things like
where we worship and
when we worship, much like the woman at the well did (cf. John 4:20). The spiritual man, on the other hand, knows that the true worship of the Father is free of these hindrances. The spiritual man worships God at all times and in all places in his body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit, living a righteous life. The spiritual man worships with his brother, not forsaking the assembling together with one another (cf. Hebrews 10:24-25), while the natural man is consumed with distaste for his brother, judging him as unworthy to assemble with. The spiritual man judges no one but himself, and in so doing is vindicated by the Judge of all, while the natural man judges his brother, and in so doing passes judgment on himself. The natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit, believing them to be foolishness and dangerous to the worship of God, while the spiritual man rejoices in the liberty by which God has made him free (cf. Galatians 5:1). Those that worship the Lord in the glory of His third day resurrection are spiritual and free and the children of promise, while those that worship Him according to the law given at Mt. Sinai long before His incarnation and resurrection are earthly and natural and the children of bondage (cf. Galatians 4:21-31). It is the free children of promise who will inherit the kingdom while the children of bondage will be cast out.
: DMA Tue May 09, 2017 - 14:02:56
: AmoYes and God will judge all according to the words which our Lord and Savior spoke.
Jn 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
All the unending twist and turns of debate to justify our positions, when all we need to do is compare all that we profess to the words of Jesus Himself. If what we believe contradicts His testimony, then what we believe contradicts God. This is what all will be judged by.
: 1 Corinthians 2:13-15These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
The natural man that St. Paul speaks of is the one who has set his mind upon earthly things rather than on spiritual things. He believes that true worship of God consists of things like where we worship and when we worship, much like the woman at the well did (cf. John 4:20). The spiritual man, on the other hand, knows that the true worship of the Father is free of these hindrances. The spiritual man worships God at all times and in all places in his body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit, living a righteous life. The spiritual man worships with his brother, not forsaking the assembling together with one another (cf. Hebrews 10:24-25), while the natural man is consumed with distaste for his brother, judging him as unworthy to assemble with. The spiritual man judges no one but himself, and in so doing is vindicated by the Judge of all, while the natural man judges his brother, and in so doing passes judgment on himself. The natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit, believing them to be foolishness and dangerous to the worship of God, while the spiritual man rejoices in the liberty by which God has made him free (cf. Galatians 5:1). Those that worship the Lord in the glory of His third day resurrection are spiritual and free and the children of promise, while those that worship Him according to the law given at Mt. Sinai long before His incarnation and resurrection are earthly and natural and the children of bondage (cf. Galatians 4:21-31). It is the free children of promise who will inherit the kingdom while the children of bondage will be cast out.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 1 Cor 7:17 Only, let each one live the life which the Lord has assigned him, and to which God has called him [for each person is unique and is accountable for his choices and conduct, let him walk in this way]. This is the rule I make in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to [h]become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised?
He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was [when he was] called.(AMP)
1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rv 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rv 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rv 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.The scriptures don't seem to agree with your assessment of Paul's words. Perhaps you should make sure your not one of the following Peter warned about.
2 Pt 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
: Amo quoting Romans 7:14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Indeed, the law is spiritual. And only one who is spiritually minded can really understand it. St. Paul, when he was a Pharisee was observing the law according to the letter of what was written, kind of like you are in regards to the sabbath. For him, just like you, the commandment in the letter said rest on the seventh-day of the week by doing no work on it. This is the letter, because this is what is written on stone. However, the spiritually minded man does not live by the letter of the commandment but by the spirit of it (cf. Romans 7:6). He understands that God wants him to keep sabbath all the time, and not just once a week from earthly, worldly work. The spiritual man knows that what God really wants is for man to cease from his evil works. This was the message of the prophet Isaiah (cf. Isaiah 1:16-17). But since you haven't been illumined by the Holy Spirit yet you only see the letter of what is written, just like St. Paul when he was only a Pharisee judging his brothers. You still have the veil over your heart thinking you understand things as they are when you really don't (cf. 2 Corinthians 3:14-16).
: Amo quoting Matthew 5:18-19Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The operative phrase is "
till all be fulfilled". I've already dealt with this passage in our previous conversation showing that indeed the Lord Jesus fulfilled all things. You should go back and read what I said, because I get the sneaky feeling you don't always read what others write to you.
: Amo quoting various scriptures1 Cor 7:17 Only, let each one live the life which the Lord has assigned him, and to which God has called him [for each person is unique and is accountable for his choices and conduct, let him walk in this way]. This is the rule I make in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to [h]become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was [when he was] called.(AMP)
1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rv 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rv 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rv 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
And what makes you think, Amo, that these passages are speaking about the Ten Commandments of Moses and not the commandments that the Lord Jesus Christ gave to His holy Apostles Himself? For it is written:
: Acts 1:1-2The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
Tell me Amo, what were these "commandments" the Lord Jesus gave to His holy Apostles through the Holy Spirit? They couldn't have been the commandments found in the writings of Moses (i.e. Genesis-Deuteronomy) since those had already been around for a while. No, these were
new commandments for a
new covenant for a
new Church. Jesus Christ is the Christian's
new "Moses" (cf. Deuteronomy 18:15) who gave a
new law in the Gospel to His holy Apostles through the Holy Spirit, and which the Church has lived by since the beginning.
: AmoThe scriptures don't seem to agree with your assessment of Paul's words. Perhaps you should make sure your not one of the following Peter warned about.
2 Pt 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Well, since I don't wish to speak anything contrary to what the Church teaches regarding the faith (you know, that Church that was founded and established by Christ Himself through His holy Apostles on the day of Pentecost 2,000+ years ago which the gates of Hades would never prevail against), perhaps I'm not the one who should be concerned here.
: Amo Sun May 07, 2017 - 08:12:00
: Michael2012 Sat May 06, 2017 - 23:44:28
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command.
It is just as that created on every other day, God spoke, and the thing was. All that He created is still here, and so is the day which He blessed and sanctified. God alone can undo, that which He has done. All that He commanded and spoke into existence remains to this day by His own design, sustenance, and intervention.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light............................................
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.................................................
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so..............................................................................
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so....................................................
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.................................................
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.............................................................
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so................................................................
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them................................................
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so....................
Gen 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
In all of the above, God spoke the command, and it was so. This includes His blessing upon the seventh day, and His sanctification of that day. Humanity cannot change this. The day is blessed and sanctified and will be until God Himself changes that. Isaiah testifies that the sabbath will be kept in the new heaven and new earth, how say you and others that it no longer is? You presume authority which is infinitely beyond your grasp. You cannot change or do away with that which God has established.
Nobody is saying that His blessing and sanctification upon the seventh day is no more. It remains to this day that, the day after He have finished His creation, He rested. That day, will forever be that day that God rested from all His work.
Do you find a law or command that God have given mankind to do in Gen 2:1-3? Obviously, there is none. And so, Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. What it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. It tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. It also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. It tells us the reason why God blessed and sanctified that day, which I quote:
"because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made"
You see, God's rest, from all his work of creation, is what this day is about. It's not about us who are part of that which He created, nor is about creation's rest. God rested, not as one weary, but as one well-pleased with the instances of his own goodness and the manifestations of his own glory. And because of that, God blessed and sanctified that very day, has separated and distinguished it from the rest of the days, it being the day of God,s rest.
The seventh day is a blessed day, for God blessed it, and that which he blesses is blessed indeed. The seventh day is a holy day, for God has sanctified it. Now, there is but only one seventh day. It was the day after the last day of God's creative work. It is the day of God's rest.
You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years. Then two thousand years later decided to make it a law that His people must observe with severe penalties for not doing so. Obviously very important to Him that they should keep this command no doubt, that they might remember who they really are in relation to Him. He gave these very same people the gospel of Jesus Christ in types and symbols through the sanctuary services, and particularly the sacrifices of the same which all pointed to their salvation through and in Christ. As the verses in Hebrews you have referred to before points out, they received the gospel also, but they refused to believe. Then when Jesus did come and die for them and the rest of humanity, He ended actual observance of the sabbath on the literal seventh day for at least another two thousand years I suppose, is this not correct? Replacing it with a deeper spiritual application every day, right? Then when we get to heaven, He will once again start sabbath observance for the saved according to the letter of the law as you would say I suppose, as scripture testifies. Yet you think I am the one who makes no sense.
You claim Jesus came to fulfill the law, apparently not establish it, ignoring the details of His own words regarding that very thing. He said the commandments shall not change one jot or tittle before heaven and earth pas, you say the fourth commandment has been completely changed regarding the observance of the literal day.
Definition of jot
: the least bit : iota
Definition of tittle
1 : a point or small sign used as a diacritical mark in writing or printing
2 : a very small part
So, which of our beliefs changes one of the commandments of God? Which one has people not observing a sabbath on the seventh day, while attending a church and worship service weekly on another day? Seems quite a bit like a change to me.
You think and teach that their was no sabbath or commandments to be kept by God's people before Israel, yet the scriptures testify of this very thing concerning Abraham, the father of Israel and all the saved as Paul himself testifies.
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Just what commandments, statutes, and laws do you think Abraham the father of Israel kept? Why would you presume sabbath observance was not among them? Even if you do, why would you presume to tell others they were wrong if they think so, when no details are provided?
Apart from this again, is the fact that most who believe in Sunday sacredness do not believe as you do. They believe that Sunday sacredness has replaced the fourth commandment sabbath. Do you argue with them, and try to convince them that they should not do so? Or do you sit beside them on Sunday mornings observing their sabbath?
You have not refuted that Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. And that what it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. And that it tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. And that it also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. And that the reason given as to why God blessed and sanctified that day, is because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Amo: <<You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years.>>
What I believe is what Gen. 2:1-3 says.
Amo: <<Just what commandments, statutes, and laws do you think Abraham the father of Israel kept? Why would you presume sabbath observance was not among them?>>
Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.
In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.
Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?
Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons
They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.
It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.
Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses.
What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.
So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.
Amo: <<Apart from this again, is the fact that most who believe in Sunday sacredness do not believe as you do. They believe that Sunday sacredness has replaced the fourth commandment sabbath. Do you argue with them, and try to convince them that they should not do so? Or do you sit beside them on Sunday mornings observing their sabbath?>>
Yes, I don't believe as they do. I would argue with them if and when they so welcome an argument with me, in the hope that I may somehow lead them to go to scriptures and seek the truth about such matter.
: Amo Sun May 07, 2017 - 08:12:00
: Michael2012 Sat May 06, 2017 - 23:44:28
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.
http://www.salvationarmy.org/ihq/ipssabbath (http://www.salvationarmy.org/ihq/ipssabbath)
In its recognition of Sunday as the Sabbath, The Salvation Army aligns itself with the custom of the Early Christian Church, which chose that day on which to commemorate and celebrate Christ's resurrection.
Principles
Within this historical Christian context, The Salvation Army holds that:
1. Sunday is 'a day of sacred assembly' (Leviticus 23:3) for corporate worship,
praise and prayer, to enrich the lives of believers and strengthen their fellowship one
with another and with God. It is also an opportunity for the gathering of families, friends and worshipping congregations.
2. Sunday is a time of resting in God apart from the anxieties and challenges of life. It is part of being human. As Scripture indicates, 'the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath' (Mark 2:27).
3. Keeping Sunday holy does not only entail the cessation of secular work for the purpose of honouring God, but also may include performing deeds of love and kindness toward fellow human beings. Jesus cautioned against legalism in the observance of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-28; Mark 3:4; Luke 13:10-17; John 5:1-15).
4. Observing Sunday as a day of rest is an evidence of our obedience to, and reverence for, God the Creator (Exodus 20:8-11).
http://www.baptist2baptist.net/b2barticle.asp?ID=251 (http://www.baptist2baptist.net/b2barticle.asp?ID=251)
So why do Christians speak of "the Lord's Day" and worship on Sunday rather than on Saturday? The answer to this important question lies in several biblical principles and practices rather than in any clear teaching or mandate of Scripture.
First, Christians need to understand that the principle of a day of rest after six days of work is rooted not in the law of Moses, but in creation. God was not tired. He needed no rest, yet he rested on the seventh day to provide a model for mankind. Jesus verified this when he taught that the Sabbath is a gracious gift of God given for the benefit of man (Mark 2:27). Since a day of rest is taught in creation and by Jesus, Christians should embrace the principle and observe a day of rest each week.
Second, even though we should observe a day of rest, we are not bound by the legal qualifications of the Sabbath as given in the law of Moses. That law was for national Israel and included precise definitions of just how much work could be allowed. The ancient Jews debated such matters as whether they could eat an egg that was laid on the Sabbath, or whether they could break a dead twig off a rose bush. Jesus ran up against this legalistic view of the Sabbath in his ministry.
Third, even though there is no clear teaching in Scripture that changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, there is unambiguous evidence that the early church met to worship on the first day of the week. Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday, which was the first work day of the Jewish week, and almost immediately thereafter the Bible records the church meeting on the evening of the first day of the week (John 20:19; Acts 20:7). In his teaching on giving, Paul instructs the Corinthians to receive the offering for the poor saints in Jerusalem on the first day of the week (1 Cor 16:2). Many scholars believe that John's phrase, "the Lord's Day," in Revelation 1:10 refers to the first day of the week as well.
Finally, since, like the early church, we commemorate the resurrection of Christ by engaging in corporate worship on the first day of the week, it is right and reasonable to also use this day for the day of rest in which we cease from labor that is not a work of necessity or of mercy. Individual issues and questions about whether or not we should engage in a game of touch football or watch television, etc., are best left to the individual conscience with the admonition that we strive for maximum conformity to the will and intention of God and not the minimum.
That is why Article 8 of the Baptist Faith and Message states simply and clearly, "The first day of the week is the Lord's Day. It is a Christian institution for regular observance. It commemorates the resurrection of Christ from the dead and should include exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private. Activities on the Lord's Day should be commensurate with the Christian's conscience under the Lordship of Jesus Christ."
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/the-lords-day?lang=eng (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/the-lords-day?lang=eng)
I confess that as a young boy, Sunday was not my favorite day. Grandfather shut down the action. We didn't have any transportation. We couldn't drive the car. He wouldn't even let us start the motor. We couldn't ride the horses, or the steers, or the sheep. It was the Sabbath, and by commandment, the animals also needed rest. We walked to Church and everywhere else we wanted to go. I can honestly say that we observed both the spirit and the letter of Sabbath worship.
By today's standards, perhaps Grandfather's interpretation of Sabbath day activities seems extreme, but something wonderful has been lost in our lives. To this day, I have been pondering to try to understand fully what has slipped away. Part of it was knowing that I was well on the Lord's side of the line. Another part was the feeling that Satan's influence was farther away. Mostly it was the reinforcement received by the spiritual power which was generated. We had the rich feeling that the spiritual "fulness of the earth" (D&C 59:16) was ours, as promised by the Lord in section 59 of the Doctrine and Covenants.
Ever since Adam's day the divine law of the Sabbath has been emphasized repeatedly over the centuries more than any other commandment. This long emphasis alone is an indication of its importance. In Genesis, we learn that God himself set the example for us in the creation of the earth:
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/681/resolution-on-the-christian-sabbath (http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/681/resolution-on-the-christian-sabbath)
1. That we renew our efforts to preserve the Christian sabbath and urge our people everywhere to abstain from purely secular and worldly engagements on the Lord's day.
2. That we especially deplore the wide use of the radio for advertising and for flippant jazz entertainment on the Lord's day, and we would favor legislation to prevent all Sunday advertising over the radio and all cheap vaudeville programs on Sunday.
http://www.houghtonstar.com/2013/12/07/students-and-the-recognition-of-the-sabbath/ (http://www.houghtonstar.com/2013/12/07/students-and-the-recognition-of-the-sabbath/)
https://cccdiscover.com/why-sunday-should-be-a-day-of-rest/ (https://cccdiscover.com/why-sunday-should-be-a-day-of-rest/)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity#Origin_of_Sunday_rest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity#Origin_of_Sunday_rest)
Apart from all of the above, there is the constant efforts of Sunday keepers to establish laws forcing all to honor their day. This speaks very loudly against what you teach. God's word has exalted a day to be observed, humanity has exalted a day to be observed. These two days represent two separate modes, systems, and God's to be worshiped. One demonstrates faith in God's word, the other demonstrates faith in mans traditions above the same.
In all of these, this is what I can say:
Rom. 14:4-6
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man
esteemeth one day above another: another
esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Rom.14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom.14:18-19
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Whatsoever deed done that is not of faith in God is sin.Whatsoever deed done that is of faith in God is righteousness, acceptable, and pleasing to God.
: Michael2012Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.
In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.
Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?
Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons
They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.
It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.
Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses.
What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.
So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.
Nice breakdown of the facts from Genesis, Michael. It reminded me of St. Stephen recounting the history of Israel to the Sanhedrin. It is a truth that God did not reveal the sabbath to anyone before the time of Moses since it was through him that it was made known (see Nehemiah 9:14). Adventists like Amo want the scriptures to say what they want them to say, that the people in Genesis knew about and kept the sabbath just as Ellen White their prophetess taught them. This isn't true and contradicts the scripture's testimony. The fact is the sabbath was first made known to mankind (the Hebrews) in Exodus 16:23-30. Again, well done sir! ::applause::
: DMA Fri May 12, 2017 - 13:55:54
: Michael2012Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.
In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.
Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?
Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons
They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.
It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.
Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses.
What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.
So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.
Nice breakdown of the facts from Genesis, Michael. It reminded me of St. Stephen recounting the history of Israel to the Sanhedrin. It is a truth that God did not reveal the sabbath to anyone before the time of Moses since it was through him that it was made known (see Nehemiah 9:14). Adventists like Amo want the scriptures to say what they want them to say, that the people in Genesis knew about and kept the sabbath just as Ellen White their prophetess taught them. This isn't true and contradicts the scripture's testimony. The fact is the sabbath was first made known to mankind (the Hebrews) in Exodus 16:23-30. Again, well done sir! ::applause::
I can only guess that you two are secret Jesuits out to destroy the SDA Church and then afterward dominate the earth with Sunday Law!
: Texas ConservativeI can only guess that you two are secret Jesuits out to destroy the SDA Church and then afterward dominate the earth with Sunday Law!
Shhhh...you'll reveal our secret plan
Just act natural ::lookaround:: ::whistle::
: Amo Sun May 07, 2017 - 08:29:31
: Michael2012 Sun May 07, 2017 - 01:02:13
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.
But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.
Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.
Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.
Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance? Baloney! Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath? You have simply chosen another day. Correct if I am wrong. Shall I produce the statements from Sunday keepers to the effect that they are keeping what they consider to be the new sabbath-day?
Amo: <<Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance?>>
I didn't, and I don't.
Amo: <<Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath?>>
Treat it as a sabbath? What do you mean by that? Please expound.
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Which statement you and other Sunday keepers do always completely ignore. Besides this the NT admonishes us to keep the commandments of God all the way through to the end. You are simply caught up in the justification of your own views which contradict scripture, which results in devising faulty doctrines which make the scriptures contradict themselves. Such things can lead no where else. The scriptures are truth. The moment one departs from the truth and attempts to use scripture to back them up, they bear testimony that the scriptures contradict themselves. It can be no other way. Apart from this, Isaiah spoke of the sabbath as a blessing to both Jew and Gentile even during the old covenant, and in reference to the new covenant you speak of in which others besides the Jews would be gathered together unto God. Observe-
Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Amo: <<Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.>>
That's right, Jesus kept the Sabbath, firstly in that he is born a Jew and is under the Law. Though, not in the manner and way that those under the Law keeps it. He kept it in spirit and in truth. He properly kept it, for He knows not only what the Sabbath is and is for, even so, He is the Lord of the Sabbath.
Nobody is saying that Jesus said that it is changed or that it is no more to be kept.
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.
You are correct, it is about entering His rest. Which is exactly what the seventh day sabbath is a sign of. Which is exactly why it is brought up in the verses you are speaking of. Which is exactly why those who keep it, do so by faith in the God of creation and redemption. It is a weekly reminder of our proper relation to our Creator and Redeemer. It has not been done away with. It was established at creation for humanity before the fall, reiterated by God again for fallen humanity who wanted and accepted God's salvation during the old covenant, kept by way of example by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as He established salvation and the new covenant, and will be kept in the new heaven and new earth by the saved after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. This is the testimony of scripture which you deny in your rejection of the fourth commandment of God.
Yes, Hebrews 4:1-11 is about entering God's rest, and not about some law, nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. I wonder why the SDA cited it in speaking about the 4th commandment in the SDA article I cited.
Meditate on this: Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
What does the verse tells you?
Amo: <<It was established at creation for humanity before the fall>>
What was established? The seventh day, or the 4th commandment?
People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again. Your testimony is false. True Christianity is the true spiritual Israel of God. Those who accept Christ are graft into the vine, not made of a separate vine. Christ is king of the Jews. The Jews who rejected Jesus Christ are not the Israel of God. The Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ are now the spiritual children of Abraham, the Israel of God. If you maintain the wall which Christ has broken down, you are none of His. If Jesus is your Lord, then follow Him.
Amo, you seemed to have missed this one.
Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
What does the verse tells you?
And this one: What was established in Genesis 2:1-3? Was the commandment concerning the Sabbath or God's rest?
Amo: <<People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again.>>
Go to scriptures and listen to what it says, and see whether what these people say is in keeping with scriptures or not. Now, if you think that they are wrong and you are right, and want all of them to believe as you do, then ask God what you ought to do to bring this about.
Now, we don't get to do this by force or by any unkind manner, rather, we do it in love and brotherly affection. Afterall, I see this matter, as not a matter of salvation, that if for example, one does not do and believe as you do, concerning the 4th commandment, that he will not be saved. Unless, you take this as being a matter of salvation, I don't see why we can't have a kind and simple exchange of views, and in that way, offer one another, the opportunity to examine each others views in scriptures. And we leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.
You have not refuted that Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. And that what it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. And that it tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. And that it also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. And that the reason given as to why God blessed and sanctified that day, is because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
I don't have to refute anything you say. God established the seventh day sabbath at creation. I don't care if you think it was a law or not. It was established at creation, and has existed ever since. Nothing you say or do can change that. You are dust just like me, here today, gone tomorrow. The word of God is forever. When He speaks it is, and none can change it save Himself. Nothing you or all humanity with you can say or do, will end the seventh day Sabbath established by God at creation.
Amo: <<You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years.>>
What I believe is what Gen. 2:1-3 says.
Which verses say nothing about no one hearing what God said, or ever observing a Sabbath. These are your thoughts, not scripture. Just as my assumption that His words were heard and no doubt heeded. Though scripture does not say either way. Nevertheless, we have scriptural testimony that Abraham kept God's laws and commandments before scripture ever mentions them. At the very least then, He must have told Abraham about them. Or do you think he just guessed what they were?
Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.
In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.
Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?
Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons
They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.
Yes, no law before the fall, or need of it.
It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.
No, no mention of the Sabbath. No mention of a whole lot of details pertaining to 2 thousand years. All concerning a world which is no more. Nevertheless, somehow Abel knew which kind of offering to bring to God which would be acceptable. What do you know, it was a lamb. Used to typify our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's sacrifice for our sins all through scripture, including the law of the old covenant. We know that Abraham also made these sacrifices, and his children. Do you presume that Cain and Abel just guessed what offering God wanted? He chose Abel's guess over Cain's and that is how it all started? Then God liked it so much, that He then decided to let His Son die for us, and be called the Lamb of God? Is that it? Scripture testifies otherwise.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
No, but God did not leave humanity in ignorance. Abel's sacrifice was acceptable because it was by faith in God's word, just as Abraham's was also. Knowing about the sacrifices was part of the laws, statutes, and commandments of God which scripture testifies Abraham kept. You may presume God left humanity to guess at these things and then adapted their guesses, I know my Better than that.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses.
Nice try. Circumcision does not amount to statutes, commandments, and laws. All plural in case you hadn't noticed. I understand your need that there were no statutes, commandments, or laws given to Abraham by God, nevertheless need does not make anything so. This is important to your point I know, so no doubt you will continue to equate statutes, commandments, and laws to all that you can other than actual statutes, commandments, and laws. Or however you might twist things to your own understanding. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.
How very strange, such pointed accusations against people Paul stated knew better, yet you maintain were apparently totally ignorant of God's will for them. How does that work? Why would they glorify God as God if they knew nothing about Him or what He wanted for or from them? Why wouldn't they worship idols if they had no idea God didn't want them to worship idols? What truths did they turn into lies, if they didn't know any truth from God in the first place? How were they unrighteous, if they were never told by God what was righteous? Why wouldn't they fornicate, if God never told them not to fornicate? Why wouldn't they covet, if God had never told them not to covet, and so on and so on? According to your own belief, even God's people didn't have any direction, statutes, laws, or commandments pertaining to the same. They certainly could not have witnessed to the heathen about such things when they themselves didn't know about them. At the very least, they all must be far less guilty than we all are. We have the scriptures and know what God wants, right? Of course we don't agree upon what he wants, do we?
So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Yes there is more than a hint, we are told that Abraham knew and kept God's statutes, commandments, and laws. You just choose to believe that referred apparently to circumcision and a few other vague things. That is your choice not mine. It suits your purposes, not mine. I do not believe God left humanity, especially His own in ignorance, you do.
The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.
No, the seventh day Sabbath was established at creation, you cannot change this. You just choose to believe that it had and God intended no relevance for it until the nation of Israel. This is what you choose. Certainly not anything taught in scripture, nor rightly deduced as I see it, from what little mention their is of all that God related to humanity in the thousands of years leading up to the establishment of the nation of Israel. In any case, as soon as God had a nation which had attracted major attention in this world through His miraculous deliverance of them, He commanded them to keep the Sabbath He established at creation. In a commandment that revealed exactly who God is, and His right to authority over us. Which commandment you no longer choose to keep.
: DMA Fri May 12, 2017 - 13:55:54
: Michael2012Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.
In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.
Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?
Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons
They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.
It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.
Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses.
What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.
So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.
Nice breakdown of the facts from Genesis, Michael. It reminded me of St. Stephen recounting the history of Israel to the Sanhedrin. It is a truth that God did not reveal the sabbath to anyone before the time of Moses since it was through him that it was made known (see Nehemiah 9:14). Adventists like Amo want the scriptures to say what they want them to say, that the people in Genesis knew about and kept the sabbath just as Ellen White their prophetess taught them. This isn't true and contradicts the scripture's testimony. The fact is the sabbath was first made known to mankind (the Hebrews) in Exodus 16:23-30. Again, well done sir! ::applause::
What a surprise, you agree with Michael, I would have never guessed it. I think comparing the above to Stephen's testimony was going quite a bit to far though. But hey, I guess we all choose our own hero's.
: Texas Conservative Fri May 12, 2017 - 14:04:30
: DMA Fri May 12, 2017 - 13:55:54
: Michael2012Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.
In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.
Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?
Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons
They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.
It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.
Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses.
What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.
So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.
Nice breakdown of the facts from Genesis, Michael. It reminded me of St. Stephen recounting the history of Israel to the Sanhedrin. It is a truth that God did not reveal the sabbath to anyone before the time of Moses since it was through him that it was made known (see Nehemiah 9:14). Adventists like Amo want the scriptures to say what they want them to say, that the people in Genesis knew about and kept the sabbath just as Ellen White their prophetess taught them. This isn't true and contradicts the scripture's testimony. The fact is the sabbath was first made known to mankind (the Hebrews) in Exodus 16:23-30. Again, well done sir! ::applause::
I can only guess that you two are secret Jesuits out to destroy the SDA Church and then afterward dominate the earth with Sunday Law!
Typical comment from the Texas Conservative peanut gallery.
: DMA Fri May 12, 2017 - 14:46:03
: Texas ConservativeI can only guess that you two are secret Jesuits out to destroy the SDA Church and then afterward dominate the earth with Sunday Law!
Shhhh...you'll reveal our secret plan
Just act natural ::lookaround:: ::whistle::
Yea, some big secret. Been non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years, and a bunch of people pushing for them today.
: Michael2012 Sat May 13, 2017 - 00:40:21
: Amo Sun May 07, 2017 - 08:29:31
: Michael2012 Sun May 07, 2017 - 01:02:13
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.
But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.
Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.
Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.
Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance? Baloney! Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath? You have simply chosen another day. Correct if I am wrong. Shall I produce the statements from Sunday keepers to the effect that they are keeping what they consider to be the new sabbath-day?
Amo: <<Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance?>>
I didn't, and I don't.
Amo: <<Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath?>>
Treat it as a sabbath? What do you mean by that? Please expound.
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Which statement you and other Sunday keepers do always completely ignore. Besides this the NT admonishes us to keep the commandments of God all the way through to the end. You are simply caught up in the justification of your own views which contradict scripture, which results in devising faulty doctrines which make the scriptures contradict themselves. Such things can lead no where else. The scriptures are truth. The moment one departs from the truth and attempts to use scripture to back them up, they bear testimony that the scriptures contradict themselves. It can be no other way. Apart from this, Isaiah spoke of the sabbath as a blessing to both Jew and Gentile even during the old covenant, and in reference to the new covenant you speak of in which others besides the Jews would be gathered together unto God. Observe-
Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Amo: <<Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.>>
That's right, Jesus kept the Sabbath, firstly in that he is born a Jew and is under the Law. Though, not in the manner and way that those under the Law keeps it. He kept it in spirit and in truth. He properly kept it, for He knows not only what the Sabbath is and is for, even so, He is the Lord of the Sabbath.
Nobody is saying that Jesus said that it is changed or that it is no more to be kept.
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.
You are correct, it is about entering His rest. Which is exactly what the seventh day sabbath is a sign of. Which is exactly why it is brought up in the verses you are speaking of. Which is exactly why those who keep it, do so by faith in the God of creation and redemption. It is a weekly reminder of our proper relation to our Creator and Redeemer. It has not been done away with. It was established at creation for humanity before the fall, reiterated by God again for fallen humanity who wanted and accepted God's salvation during the old covenant, kept by way of example by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as He established salvation and the new covenant, and will be kept in the new heaven and new earth by the saved after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. This is the testimony of scripture which you deny in your rejection of the fourth commandment of God.
Yes, Hebrews 4:1-11 is about entering God's rest, and not about some law, nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. I wonder why the SDA cited it in speaking about the 4th commandment in the SDA article I cited.
Meditate on this: Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
What does the verse tells you?
Amo: <<It was established at creation for humanity before the fall>>
What was established? The seventh day, or the 4th commandment?
People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again. Your testimony is false. True Christianity is the true spiritual Israel of God. Those who accept Christ are graft into the vine, not made of a separate vine. Christ is king of the Jews. The Jews who rejected Jesus Christ are not the Israel of God. The Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ are now the spiritual children of Abraham, the Israel of God. If you maintain the wall which Christ has broken down, you are none of His. If Jesus is your Lord, then follow Him.
Amo, you seemed to have missed this one.
Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
What does the verse tells you?
And this one: What was established in Genesis 2:1-3? Was the commandment concerning the Sabbath or God's rest?
Amo: <<People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again.>>
Go to scriptures and listen to what it says, and see whether what these people say is in keeping with scriptures or not. Now, if you think that they are wrong and you are right, and want all of them to believe as you do, then ask God what you ought to do to bring this about.
Now, we don't get to do this by force or by any unkind manner, rather, we do it in love and brotherly affection. Afterall, I see this matter, as not a matter of salvation, that if for example, one does not do and believe as you do, concerning the 4th commandment, that he will not be saved. Unless, you take this as being a matter of salvation, I don't see why we can't have a kind and simple exchange of views, and in that way, offer one another, the opportunity to examine each others views in scriptures. And we leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.
Human laws that force people to observe Sunday sacredness have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit if God. Countless deceived people who also believe the seventh day Sabbath is no more, also believe in forcing their chosen day upon everyone by law. There is serious deception going on here. I would think you would rather address them, than those who maintain the seventh day Sabbath should still be kept by faith in God's word alone. You can close your eyes to the true history and nature connected to Sunday sacredness if you wish, but I cannot. It is purely anti-christ to declare what man has made of God, and then seek to force it upon everyone.
In all of these, this is what I can say:
Rom. 14:4-6
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Rom.14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom.14:18-19
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Whatsoever deed done that is not of faith in God is sin.
Whatsoever deed done that is of faith in God is righteousness, acceptable, and pleasing to God.
Yes, I know, you apply it all to the fourth commandment of God. though none of it is addressing the ten commandments at all. Been through this about a million times already.
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 14:57:54
You have not refuted that Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. And that what it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. And that it tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. And that it also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. And that the reason given as to why God blessed and sanctified that day, is because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
I don't have to refute anything you say. God established the seventh day sabbath at creation. I don't care if you think it was a law or not. It was established at creation, and has existed ever since. Nothing you say or do can change that. You are dust just like me, here today, gone tomorrow. The word of God is forever. When He speaks it is, and none can change it save Himself. Nothing you or all humanity with you can say or do, will end the seventh day Sabbath established by God at creation.
If you don't or can't, then my position remains and stands to refute your position on Gen. 2:1-3. And clearly now, what God established is not a law, but the 7th day Sabbath. And nobody here says that this 7th day Sabbath has ended, whatever, it is that you mean by that. The 7th day Sabbath was established by God on the day that he ended his work, for He rested on that day. And this 7th day is forever that day that God rested from all His work. Nothing can ever change that. As an additional comment, nothing can change the day that Christ died on the cross, and the day that He resurrected from the dead. All are holy and are most worthy to be kept in remembrance, even every day in the life of the child of God. It's not the day, but the holy remembrance of it, to the glory of God.
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 14:57:54
Amo: <<You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years.>>
What I believe is what Gen. 2:1-3 says.
Which verses say nothing about no one hearing what God said, or ever observing a Sabbath. These are your thoughts, not scripture. Just as my assumption that His words were heard and no doubt heeded. Though scripture does not say either way. Nevertheless, we have scriptural testimony that Abraham kept God's laws and commandments before scripture ever mentions them. At the very least then, He must have told Abraham about them. Or do you think he just guessed what they were?
What I have shown you is written in scriptures. No assumptions there Amo. We don't need to assume. What we need to do is accept and believe what is revealed in scriptures. So, go ahead and see what is revealed from Adam to up to before Moses. See for yourself if there was anything ever written about the 7th day Sabbath, during those generations.
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 16:40:44
In all of these, this is what I can say:
Rom. 14:4-6
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Rom.14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom.14:18-19
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Whatsoever deed done that is not of faith in God is sin.
Whatsoever deed done that is of faith in God is righteousness, acceptable, and pleasing to God.
Yes, I know, you apply it all to the fourth commandment of God. though none of it is addressing the ten commandments at all. Been through this about a million times already.
I don't. Read and understand the cited passages and see the spirit in there and where they apply.
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 16:15:36
Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.
In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.
Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?
Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons
They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.
Yes, no law before the fall, or need of it.
It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.
No, no mention of the Sabbath. No mention of a whole lot of details pertaining to 2 thousand years. All concerning a world which is no more. Nevertheless, somehow Abel knew which kind of offering to bring to God which would be acceptable. What do you know, it was a lamb. Used to typify our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's sacrifice for our sins all through scripture, including the law of the old covenant. We know that Abraham also made these sacrifices, and his children. Do you presume that Cain and Abel just guessed what offering God wanted? He chose Abel's guess over Cain's and that is how it all started? Then God liked it so much, that He then decided to let His Son die for us, and be called the Lamb of God? Is that it? Scripture testifies otherwise.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
No, but God did not leave humanity in ignorance. Abel's sacrifice was acceptable because it was by faith in God's word, just as Abraham's was also. Knowing about the sacrifices was part of the laws, statutes, and commandments of God which scripture testifies Abraham kept. You may presume God left humanity to guess at these things and then adapted their guesses, I know my Better than that.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
No, nobody in those generations guessed Amo. The point being is that, of all that was written and revealed in scriptures, for the child of God to know, in those times and generation, there was nothing about the 7th day Sabbath.
As to what is written, such as the offering of a sacrifice to God, that certainly was not coming from a law written in stones, but is coming from a law written within the man by God. And what law is written there, we come to know, through what is revealed in scriptures. So you can go to Genesis to know that. And even, you can go to Rom.1 to know of that as well. But, of course the SDA would be disappointed to learn that there is not mention of the 7th day sabbath, be it observed or not.
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 16:15:36
Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses.
Nice try. Circumcision does not amount to statutes, commandments, and laws. All plural in case you hadn't noticed. I understand your need that there were no statutes, commandments, or laws given to Abraham by God, nevertheless need does not make anything so. This is important to your point I know, so no doubt you will continue to equate statutes, commandments, and laws to all that you can other than actual statutes, commandments, and laws. Or however you might twist things to your own understanding. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.
How very strange, such pointed accusations against people Paul stated knew better, yet you maintain were apparently totally ignorant of God's will for them. How does that work? Why would they glorify God as God if they knew nothing about Him or what He wanted for or from them? Why wouldn't they worship idols if they had no idea God didn't want them to worship idols? What truths did they turn into lies, if they didn't know any truth from God in the first place? How were they unrighteous, if they were never told by God what was righteous? Why wouldn't they fornicate, if God never told them not to fornicate? Why wouldn't they covet, if God had never told them not to covet, and so on and so on? According to your own belief, even God's people didn't have any direction, statutes, laws, or commandments pertaining to the same. They certainly could not have witnessed to the heathen about such things when they themselves didn't know about them. At the very least, they all must be far less guilty than we all are. We have the scriptures and know what God wants, right? Of course we don't agree upon what he wants, do we?
Where did I say that people were totally ignorant of God's will for them? It amazes me. And to the contrary, did I not say that Paul said that
they knew God and know the judgment of God? So, the rest of what you say here are out of line and out of place.
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 16:15:36
So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Yes there is more than a hint, we are told that Abraham knew and kept God's statutes, commandments, and laws. You just choose to believe that referred apparently to circumcision and a few other vague things. That is your choice not mine. It suits your purposes, not mine. I do not believe God left humanity, especially His own in ignorance, you do.
That's right, Abraham may well knew and kept God's statutes, commandments, and laws. But as to what these are, if there is any hint, the 7th day Sabbath apparently is not among them. Read and see the hints in Genesis 12-17 and Romans 1.
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 16:15:36
The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.
No, the seventh day Sabbath was established at creation, you cannot change this. You just choose to believe that it had and God intended no relevance for it until the nation of Israel. This is what you choose. Certainly not anything taught in scripture, nor rightly deduced as I see it, from what little mention their is of all that God related to humanity in the thousands of years leading up to the establishment of the nation of Israel. In any case, as soon as God had a nation which had attracted major attention in this world through His miraculous deliverance of them, He commanded them to keep the Sabbath He established at creation. In a commandment that revealed exactly who God is, and His right to authority over us. Which commandment you no longer choose to keep.
You just keep on saying and point to Gen.2:1-3, which is not even a commandment or law that one must do. No matter how you force it, it's just not a law, but the day that God rested from His work.
And apparently you are not reading in scriptures why the law was given to Israel through Moses.
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 16:35:17
: Michael2012 Sat May 13, 2017 - 00:40:21
: Amo Sun May 07, 2017 - 08:29:31
: Michael2012 Sun May 07, 2017 - 01:02:13
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.
But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.
Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.
Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.
Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance? Baloney! Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath? You have simply chosen another day. Correct if I am wrong. Shall I produce the statements from Sunday keepers to the effect that they are keeping what they consider to be the new sabbath-day?
Amo: <<Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance?>>
I didn't, and I don't.
Amo: <<Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath?>>
Treat it as a sabbath? What do you mean by that? Please expound.
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Which statement you and other Sunday keepers do always completely ignore. Besides this the NT admonishes us to keep the commandments of God all the way through to the end. You are simply caught up in the justification of your own views which contradict scripture, which results in devising faulty doctrines which make the scriptures contradict themselves. Such things can lead no where else. The scriptures are truth. The moment one departs from the truth and attempts to use scripture to back them up, they bear testimony that the scriptures contradict themselves. It can be no other way. Apart from this, Isaiah spoke of the sabbath as a blessing to both Jew and Gentile even during the old covenant, and in reference to the new covenant you speak of in which others besides the Jews would be gathered together unto God. Observe-
Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Amo: <<Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.>>
That's right, Jesus kept the Sabbath, firstly in that he is born a Jew and is under the Law. Though, not in the manner and way that those under the Law keeps it. He kept it in spirit and in truth. He properly kept it, for He knows not only what the Sabbath is and is for, even so, He is the Lord of the Sabbath.
Nobody is saying that Jesus said that it is changed or that it is no more to be kept.
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.
You are correct, it is about entering His rest. Which is exactly what the seventh day sabbath is a sign of. Which is exactly why it is brought up in the verses you are speaking of. Which is exactly why those who keep it, do so by faith in the God of creation and redemption. It is a weekly reminder of our proper relation to our Creator and Redeemer. It has not been done away with. It was established at creation for humanity before the fall, reiterated by God again for fallen humanity who wanted and accepted God's salvation during the old covenant, kept by way of example by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as He established salvation and the new covenant, and will be kept in the new heaven and new earth by the saved after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. This is the testimony of scripture which you deny in your rejection of the fourth commandment of God.
Yes, Hebrews 4:1-11 is about entering God's rest, and not about some law, nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. I wonder why the SDA cited it in speaking about the 4th commandment in the SDA article I cited.
Meditate on this: Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
What does the verse tells you?
Amo: <<It was established at creation for humanity before the fall>>
What was established? The seventh day, or the 4th commandment?
People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again. Your testimony is false. True Christianity is the true spiritual Israel of God. Those who accept Christ are graft into the vine, not made of a separate vine. Christ is king of the Jews. The Jews who rejected Jesus Christ are not the Israel of God. The Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ are now the spiritual children of Abraham, the Israel of God. If you maintain the wall which Christ has broken down, you are none of His. If Jesus is your Lord, then follow Him.
Amo, you seemed to have missed this one.
Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
What does the verse tells you?
And this one: What was established in Genesis 2:1-3? Was the commandment concerning the Sabbath or God's rest?
Why have you been avoiding these two questions, especially that in Heb.4:10? Can you please kindly address them?
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 16:35:17
: Michael2012 Sat May 13, 2017 - 00:40:21
: Amo Sun May 07, 2017 - 08:29:31
: Michael2012 Sun May 07, 2017 - 01:02:13
: Amo Sat May 06, 2017 - 13:31:32
Amo: <<People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again.>>
Go to scriptures and listen to what it says, and see whether what these people say is in keeping with scriptures or not. Now, if you think that they are wrong and you are right, and want all of them to believe as you do, then ask God what you ought to do to bring this about.
Now, we don't get to do this by force or by any unkind manner, rather, we do it in love and brotherly affection. Afterall, I see this matter, as not a matter of salvation, that if for example, one does not do and believe as you do, concerning the 4th commandment, that he will not be saved. Unless, you take this as being a matter of salvation, I don't see why we can't have a kind and simple exchange of views, and in that way, offer one another, the opportunity to examine each others views in scriptures. And we leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.
Human laws that force people to observe Sunday sacredness have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit if God. Countless deceived people who also believe the seventh day Sabbath is no more, also believe in forcing their chosen day upon everyone by law. There is serious deception going on here. I would think you would rather address them, than those who maintain the seventh day Sabbath should still be kept by faith in God's word alone. You can close your eyes to the true history and nature connected to Sunday sacredness if you wish, but I cannot. It is purely anti-christ to declare what man has made of God, and then seek to force it upon everyone.
I respect your opinion and feelings here Amo.
: Michael2012 Sat May 13, 2017 - 23:17:30
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 14:57:54
You have not refuted that Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. And that what it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. And that it tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. And that it also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. And that the reason given as to why God blessed and sanctified that day, is because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
I don't have to refute anything you say. God established the seventh day sabbath at creation. I don't care if you think it was a law or not. It was established at creation, and has existed ever since. Nothing you say or do can change that. You are dust just like me, here today, gone tomorrow. The word of God is forever. When He speaks it is, and none can change it save Himself. Nothing you or all humanity with you can say or do, will end the seventh day Sabbath established by God at creation.
If you don't or can't, then my position remains and stands to refute your position on Gen. 2:1-3. And clearly now, what God established is not a law, but the 7th day Sabbath. And nobody here says that this 7th day Sabbath has ended, whatever, it is that you mean by that. The 7th day Sabbath was established by God on the day that he ended his work, for He rested on that day. And this 7th day is forever that day that God rested from all His work. Nothing can ever change that. As an additional comment, nothing can change the day that Christ died on the cross, and the day that He resurrected from the dead. All are holy and are most worthy to be kept in remembrance, even every day in the life of the child of God. It's not the day, but the holy remembrance of it, to the glory of God.
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 14:57:54
Amo: <<You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years.>>
What I believe is what Gen. 2:1-3 says.
Which verses say nothing about no one hearing what God said, or ever observing a Sabbath. These are your thoughts, not scripture. Just as my assumption that His words were heard and no doubt heeded. Though scripture does not say either way. Nevertheless, we have scriptural testimony that Abraham kept God's laws and commandments before scripture ever mentions them. At the very least then, He must have told Abraham about them. Or do you think he just guessed what they were?
What I have shown you is written in scriptures. No assumptions there Amo. We don't need to assume. What we need to do is accept and believe what is revealed in scriptures. So, go ahead and see what is revealed from Adam to up to before Moses. See for yourself if there was anything ever written about the 7th day Sabbath, during those generations.
You have refuted nothing but in your own mind. Scripture simply does not say that no one kept Sabbath at all until it was given to Israel. To the contrary, the first day of Adam and Eve's lives was the Sabbath. Do you think God rested and put them to work? What do you think they did on their first day of life, which was the Sabbath of God? What you think, in no way shape or form equals the word of God. If you want to think you have refuted what I believe, by all means do so, I of course do not agree.
No, nobody in those generations guessed Amo. The point being is that, of all that was written and revealed in scriptures, for the child of God to know, in those times and generation, there was nothing about the 7th day Sabbath
.
Yes, there was something about the seventh day Sabbath. God established it at creation. You presume that was the end of it, I assume it was likely part of the statutes, commandments, and laws Abraham kept. Neither can be proved from scripture. God observed it the first day of Adam and Eve's creation, I can think of no good reason why they would not have observed it with Him, can you? Having once observed it, would they then just forget about it? None of this can be proved from scripture, it simply is not addressed. You have your reasons for choosing to believe the Sabbath had no significance until Israel I am sure, just as I have mine. Neither can be absolutely proved from scripture.
As to what is written, such as the offering of a sacrifice to God, that certainly was not coming from a law written in stones, but is coming from a law written within the man by God. And what law is written there, we come to know, through what is revealed in scriptures. So you can go to Genesis to know that. And even, you can go to Rom.1 to know of that as well. But, of course the SDA would be disappointed to learn that there is not mention of the 7th day sabbath, be it observed or not.
No one said anything about a law written in stone. Nor do I believe those who followed God just guessed what to do, or just knew instinctively what to do. God revealed it to them. SDA's know there is no mention of Sabbath observance until Israel. They are not disappointed to find out what they already know. You are not making a new revelation to anyone.
Where did I say that people were totally ignorant of God's will for them? It amazes me. And to the contrary, did I not say that Paul said that they knew God and know the judgment of God? So, the rest of what you say here are out of line and out of place.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Either they knew of God or they didn't. Paul testifies that they did.
That's right, Abraham may well knew and kept God's statutes, commandments, and laws. But as to what these are, if there is any hint, the 7th day Sabbath apparently is not among them. Read and see the hints in Genesis 12-17 and Romans 1.
I have read them. You assume the whole of all interaction between God and Abraham is recorded apparently. I do not. The scriptures do not record all the details of anyone's life, and that is a good thing. They would not be finished to this day otherwise.
You just keep on saying and point to Gen.2:1-3, which is not even a commandment or law that one must do. No matter how you force it, it's just not a law, but the day that God rested from His work.
I don't believe I have ever said it was a law. I say it was established at creation. It precedes all of God's laws for humanity. It was established before any other. You choose to believe it was ignored by all or not even thought of until Israel, I think that highly unlikely.
And apparently you are not reading in scriptures why the law was given to Israel through Moses.
Same old, same old, same old. I have read the scriptures just like you my friend. God did not give the ten commandments through Moses. He spoke them Himself to Israel, and wrote them for Israel with His own hand as well.
Why have you been avoiding these two questions, especially that in Heb.4:10? Can you please kindly address them?
I'm not avoiding anything. I'm pretty sure I addressed it already. It's about entering God's rest, exactly what the Sabbath is a sign of. What specifically are you asking about it?
: Amo Sun May 14, 2017 - 07:45:12
No, nobody in those generations guessed Amo. The point being is that, of all that was written and revealed in scriptures, for the child of God to know, in those times and generation, there was nothing about the 7th day Sabbath
.
Yes, there was something about the seventh day Sabbath. God established it at creation. You presume that was the end of it, I assume it was likely part of the statutes, commandments, and laws Abraham kept. Neither can be proved from scripture. God observed it the first day of Adam and Eve's creation, I can think of no good reason why they would not have observed it with Him, can you? Having once observed it, would they then just forget about it? None of this can be proved from scripture, it simply is not addressed. You have your reasons for choosing to believe the Sabbath had no significance until Israel I am sure, just as I have mine. Neither can be absolutely proved from scripture.
In that case then, there is no real cause for arguing the matter of the Sabbath, isn't it?
But perhaps we can agree that in scriptures, we can read the commandments regarding the Sabbath in Exodus and that God gave it to Israel in the wilderness at Mt. Sinai for them to keep.
: Amo Sun May 14, 2017 - 07:45:12
As to what is written, such as the offering of a sacrifice to God, that certainly was not coming from a law written in stones, but is coming from a law written within the man by God. And what law is written there, we come to know, through what is revealed in scriptures. So you can go to Genesis to know that. And even, you can go to Rom.1 to know of that as well. But, of course the SDA would be disappointed to learn that there is not mention of the 7th day sabbath, be it observed or not.
No one said anything about a law written in stone. Nor do I believe those who followed God just guessed what to do, or just knew instinctively what to do. God revealed it to them. SDA's know there is no mention of Sabbath observance until Israel. They are not disappointed to find out what they already know. You are not making a new revelation to anyone.
Of course definitely God gave them revelation. HOW, is the matter. And from Adam, no law was written in stones or what have they then to write upon. Nor can we read of a time then that God gave commandments, not to mean that He certainly did not. But what is sure is that, after the fall of Adam, men began to have SOME knowledge of good and evil. That would mean that they have knowledge and sense of morality, of what is righteous and what is not, what is offensive to God and what is pleasing to God.
: Amo Sun May 14, 2017 - 07:45:12
Where did I say that people were totally ignorant of God's will for them? It amazes me. And to the contrary, did I not say that Paul said that they knew God and know the judgment of God? So, the rest of what you say here are out of line and out of place.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Either they knew of God or they didn't. Paul testifies that they did.
Yes, Paul states that they knew God. And that is what I said in my post.
: Amo Sun May 14, 2017 - 07:45:12
That's right, Abraham may well knew and kept God's statutes, commandments, and laws. But as to what these are, if there is any hint, the 7th day Sabbath apparently is not among them. Read and see the hints in Genesis 12-17 and Romans 1.
I have read them. You assume the whole of all interaction between God and Abraham is recorded apparently. I do not. The scriptures do not record all the details of anyone's life, and that is a good thing. They would not be finished to this day otherwise.
I don't assume anything Amo. I was just pointing out what one can learn from what is written in scriptures.
: Amo Sun May 14, 2017 - 07:45:12
You just keep on saying and point to Gen.2:1-3, which is not even a commandment or law that one must do. No matter how you force it, it's just not a law, but the day that God rested from His work.
I don't believe I have ever said it was a law. I say it was established at creation. It precedes all of God's laws for humanity. It was established before any other. You choose to believe it was ignored by all or not even thought of until Israel, I think that highly unlikely.
And I did not say that you did. But in our discussion, what you are saying that is established at creation seems to imply that you are speaking of a law on the 7th day Sabbath, for we are talking about the 4th commandment. That is why I have been asking to clarify if what is established at creation in Gen.2:1-3, is a law or is God's rest. For, it is very material to this discussion for you to answer this. So, is it a law or not?
: Amo Sun May 14, 2017 - 07:45:12
And apparently you are not reading in scriptures why the law was given to Israel through Moses.
Same old, same old, same old. I have read the scriptures just like you my friend. God did not give the ten commandments through Moses. He spoke them Himself to Israel, and wrote them for Israel with His own hand as well.
The matter is WHY the ten commandments, statutes, and laws, were given by God to Israel. In your reading of scriptures, have you known WHY?
: Amo Sun May 14, 2017 - 07:50:55
Why have you been avoiding these two questions, especially that in Heb.4:10? Can you please kindly address them?
I'm not avoiding anything. I'm pretty sure I addressed it already. It's about entering God's rest, exactly what the Sabbath is a sign of. What specifically are you asking about it?
Let's leave the other matter and focus on this.
Hebrews 4:1-11
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
"So I swore in My wrath,
'They shall not enter My rest,'"
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4
For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; [c] 5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said:
"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10
For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
What does verse 10 tells you? Or better yet what does the passage tells you in verse 10 in connection to God's rest on the 7th day spoken of in verse 4?
: Amo Sun May 14, 2017 - 07:04:08
: Michael2012 Sat May 13, 2017 - 23:17:30
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 14:57:54
You have not refuted that Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. And that what it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. And that it tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. And that it also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. And that the reason given as to why God blessed and sanctified that day, is because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
I don't have to refute anything you say. God established the seventh day sabbath at creation. I don't care if you think it was a law or not. It was established at creation, and has existed ever since. Nothing you say or do can change that. You are dust just like me, here today, gone tomorrow. The word of God is forever. When He speaks it is, and none can change it save Himself. Nothing you or all humanity with you can say or do, will end the seventh day Sabbath established by God at creation.
If you don't or can't, then my position remains and stands to refute your position on Gen. 2:1-3. And clearly now, what God established is not a law, but the 7th day Sabbath. And nobody here says that this 7th day Sabbath has ended, whatever, it is that you mean by that. The 7th day Sabbath was established by God on the day that he ended his work, for He rested on that day. And this 7th day is forever that day that God rested from all His work. Nothing can ever change that. As an additional comment, nothing can change the day that Christ died on the cross, and the day that He resurrected from the dead. All are holy and are most worthy to be kept in remembrance, even every day in the life of the child of God. It's not the day, but the holy remembrance of it, to the glory of God.
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 14:57:54
Amo: <<You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years.>>
What I believe is what Gen. 2:1-3 says.
Which verses say nothing about no one hearing what God said, or ever observing a Sabbath. These are your thoughts, not scripture. Just as my assumption that His words were heard and no doubt heeded. Though scripture does not say either way. Nevertheless, we have scriptural testimony that Abraham kept God's laws and commandments before scripture ever mentions them. At the very least then, He must have told Abraham about them. Or do you think he just guessed what they were?
What I have shown you is written in scriptures. No assumptions there Amo. We don't need to assume. What we need to do is accept and believe what is revealed in scriptures. So, go ahead and see what is revealed from Adam to up to before Moses. See for yourself if there was anything ever written about the 7th day Sabbath, during those generations.
You have refuted nothing but in your own mind. Scripture simply does not say that no one kept Sabbath at all until it was given to Israel. To the contrary, the first day of Adam and Eve's lives was the Sabbath. Do you think God rested and put them to work? What do you think they did on their first day of life, which was the Sabbath of God? What you think, in no way shape or form equals the word of God. If you want to think you have refuted what I believe, by all means do so, I of course do not agree.
But let me talk about what is written in scriptures and what it says, rather than what is does not say. From Adam up to before Moses, what is written is that these generation of man was wicked. And that they have committed sins of all sorts that even caused God to literally destroy and kill all of man, saved Noah and those with him in the ark. You would assume, I'd guess, that men violated the Sabbath during those times, right? But even granting that your assumption is true, for the sake of argument, do you not ask the question, why scriptures does not mention of it nor hinted about it being violated? Or do you assume further that it was kept all throughout these generations and no one violated it?
Amo: << To the contrary, the first day of Adam and Eve's lives was the Sabbath. Do you think God rested and put them to work? What do you think they did on their first day of life, which was the Sabbath of God?>>
The 7th day was not the first day of Adam and Eve. They were created on the 6th and so that was their first day. Read Gen.2: 7-25 what Adam did on that day.
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 16:20:25
: DMA Fri May 12, 2017 - 13:55:54
: Michael2012Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.
In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.
Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?
Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons
They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.
It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.
Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses.
What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.
So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.
Nice breakdown of the facts from Genesis, Michael. It reminded me of St. Stephen recounting the history of Israel to the Sanhedrin. It is a truth that God did not reveal the sabbath to anyone before the time of Moses since it was through him that it was made known (see Nehemiah 9:14). Adventists like Amo want the scriptures to say what they want them to say, that the people in Genesis knew about and kept the sabbath just as Ellen White their prophetess taught them. This isn't true and contradicts the scripture's testimony. The fact is the sabbath was first made known to mankind (the Hebrews) in Exodus 16:23-30. Again, well done sir! ::applause::
What a surprise, you agree with Michael, I would have never guessed it. I think comparing the above to Stephen's testimony was going quite a bit to far though. But hey, I guess we all choose our own hero's.
I agree with Michael because he states the truth of scripture that no one is recorded in the entire book of Genesis, including Abraham, as having either known about a command to keep the sabbath, let alone kept a sabbath. All you have is assumptions Amo that persons in Genesis kept a sabbath commandment. You don't have a "
Thus saith the Lord" now do you? But I have a "
Thus saith the Lord" telling me that the sabbath was made known by the hand (i.e. writing) of Moses. Hear what scripture DOES say:
: Nehemiah 9:13-14You came down also on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them just ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments. You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, by the hand of Moses Your servant.
When does scripture say God revealed His sabbath to mankind? First in Exodus 16:23-30, and then in Exodus 20:8-10 at Mt. Sinai. And how did God reveal His sabbath to mankind? By the hand of Moses His servant, just as scripture says.
Now, where's your "
Thus saith the Lord" Amo?? Or are we simply to go on your assumptions that the people in Genesis
must have kept the sabbath because it says that Abraham kept God's commandments, statutes, and judgments (as though scripture must fit within your understanding of what those things are)? We have a clear testimony from scripture that the sabbath was made known through Moses. You have your assumptions. Guess which outweighs the other Amo?
: Amo Sat May 13, 2017 - 16:25:57
: DMA Fri May 12, 2017 - 14:46:03
: Texas ConservativeI can only guess that you two are secret Jesuits out to destroy the SDA Church and then afterward dominate the earth with Sunday Law!
Shhhh...you'll reveal our secret plan
Just act natural ::lookaround:: ::whistle::
Yea, some big secret. Been non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years, and a bunch of people pushing for them today.
Besides not being able to take what is clearly a joke, please quote for us these "
non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years" so that I may review them. I asked you before for references to the many Sunday laws you referred to in a previous comment, but you were unable to provide any. Again I ask you, show these Sunday laws you speak of over the past 1600-1700 years. I'll wait...
The matter is WHY the ten commandments, statutes, and laws, were given by God to Israel. In your reading of scriptures, have you known WHY?
The scriptures say quite a bit about the law and its purpose.
Ex 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant,
then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
It was given to Israel, that they might be a peculiar treasure to God above all people. That they might be a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. I know, this probably isn't what you were looking for. We'll get to those verses eventually.
Deut 26:17 Thou hast avouched the Lord this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice: 18
And the Lord hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments; 19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the Lord thy God, as he hath spoken.
The same again. To be God's peculiar people, raising them high above all nations, as a holy people unto the Lord. Still not what your looking for I'm sure.
Ps 19:6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. 7
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.The law was given to convert the soul, to make the simple wise, to rejoice the heart, and enlighten the eyes. Is this the scriptures you were looking for?
Ps 78:1Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. 2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: 3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us. 4 We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the Lord, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done. 5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children: 6 That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children: 7
That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:The law was given to Israel that they and their children might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God. Are these them?
Ps 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord. 2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart. 3
They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways. 4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. 5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes! 6
Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.Are these what you are looking for? That Israel might do no iniquity, that they be not ashamed?
Ps 119:98
Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. 99
I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. 100 I
understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. 101
I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word. 102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me. 103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! 104
Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.How about these scriptures? He gave them His commandments to make them wiser than their enemies, to give them understanding, that they might refrain from evil, to be a light unto their feet, and a light unto their path. Is this what you are looking for?
Ps 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,
and thy law is the truth...................................
151 Thou art near, O Lord;
and all thy commandments are truth.Maybe this is what you are referring to. The law was given that we might have the truth. Is that it?
Ps 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
This is a good one. He gave His law that Israel might have peace, and not be offended. Perhaps this is what you are referring to.
Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.Maybe this is getting closer to home, since it is in the NT. The law was given so that Israel and all I reckon, would learn to do unto others, as they wished others to do unto them. Is this what you are looking for?
Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.Another good one from the NT. It was given that we might love God with all our heart, and our neighbors as ourselves. Maybe this is what you refer to.
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:
that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin.The law was given that all the world might become guilty before God. Is this what you are looking for?
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The law was given, that the offence of sin might be magnified.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid.
Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.The law was given to reveal sin, that sin might be seen to be exceeding sinful. The law and commandments are holy, just, and good. It is spiritual, while we are carnal. Is this what you are looking for?
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came,
we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Perhaps the above is what you were looking for. The law was given because of transgression. To lead the transgressor to Christ for justification. This, that all who believe might no longer be under the condemnation of the law. That we might become the children of Abraham, that is the children of faith. Is this what you were looking for?
Do you suppose this faith does away with the law? Abraham was the father of the faith being referred to, and the scriptures testify that he kept God's laws, statutes, and commandments. Obviously, as the father of the faith we are all called to exercise, he did not keep those laws, statutes, and commandments in order to be saved, but because he was already saved by faith.
1 Tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. 12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Again, the law as given "for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" to drive them to Christ. Which is exactly what it did to Paul, who considered himself the chief of sinners. How about you, are you a sinner that needs salvation in Christ Jesus? I know I am. Shall we go on and on? The ten commandments are the standard of righteousness given by God to humanity to reveal to us our deadly deficiencies. They are to lead us to Christ for forgiveness and justification as an enduring standard of perfection in Him. This as well as all of the rest of the benefits the scriptures we have examined point out. Does this answer your question?
Let's leave the other matter and focus on this.
Hebrews 4:1-11
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
"So I swore in My wrath,
'They shall not enter My rest,'"
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; [c] 5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said:
"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
What does verse 10 tells you? Or better yet what does the passage tells you in verse 10 in connection to God's rest on the 7th day spoken of in verse 4?
The sabbath is a sign of entering into God's rest. We enter into His rest by faith which brings about obedience to God. We cease from our own labors of sin, and rest in God by obedience. Thus escaping the lack of faith and disobedience of the children of Israel who would not enter into God's rest.
If you don't or can't, then my position remains and stands to refute your position on Gen. 2:1-3. And clearly now, what God established is not a law, but the 7th day Sabbath. And nobody here says that this 7th day Sabbath has ended, whatever, it is that you mean by that. The 7th day Sabbath was established by God on the day that he ended his work, for He rested on that day. And this 7th day is forever that day that God rested from all His work. Nothing can ever change that. As an additional comment, nothing can change the day that Christ died on the cross, and the day that He resurrected from the dead. All are holy and are most worthy to be kept in remembrance, even every day in the life of the child of God. It's not the day, but the holy remembrance of it, to the glory of God.
You may believe what ever you wish, but the bible does not teach anything you said above. It does say the sabbath was established at creation, It was given to Israel as the fourth commandment, a blessing was pronounced upon others apart from Israel also who would keep it, Jesus kept it, the early Christians kept it, and the bible says it will be kept in the new heaven and earth. God blessed and sanctified the day, and never took that blessing or sanctification away. Nor did He or do the scriptures ever say that the day now represents every day of Christians lives in God's rest, therefore the seventh day no longer needs to be observed by faith in God's command. This is what you and yours claim. It is not in scripture.
What I have shown you is written in scriptures. No assumptions there Amo. We don't need to assume. What we need to do is accept and believe what is revealed in scriptures. So, go ahead and see what is revealed from Adam to up to before Moses. See for yourself if there was anything ever written about the 7th day Sabbath, during those generations.
I'm not the one in denial here.
Gen 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Since when do the above scriptures in Genesis, mean that the scriptures say nothing about the seventh day Sabbath from Adam to Moses. You are in denial of what is right in front of your face. You want to make the above words of scripture fit your own chosen understanding in direct contradiction of the word of God.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.What part of the above explanation for the Sabbath in the commandment itself do you not understand? The Lord blessed the Sabbath day at creation. It doesn't get any simpler than that. You are denying the words of the fourth commandment spoken by the mouth of God to Israel and written with His own hand in tables of stone. It is right in front of your face in scripture, yet you deny it. Again, I am not the one here in denial.
But let me talk about what is written in scriptures and what it says, rather than what is does not say. From Adam up to before Moses, what is written is that these generation of man was wicked. And that they have committed sins of all sorts that even caused God to literally destroy and kill all of man, saved Noah and those with him in the ark. You would assume, I'd guess, that men violated the Sabbath during those times, right? But even granting that your assumption is true, for the sake of argument, do you not ask the question, why scriptures does not mention of it nor hinted about it being violated? Or do you assume further that it was kept all throughout these generations and no one violated it?
If you are willing to talk about what is written in scripture, then please address why God says right in His fourth commandment, that the day He blessed and sanctified at creation was the Sabbath? Why do you deny and argue against this plain and simple fact? I have no idea what happened in relation to Sabbath observance from Adam to Moses, and neither do you, it is not recorded. On the other hand, it is not hard at all to deduce that a world filled with those whose desires are bent upon evil only, did of concern themselves with Sabbath observance or anything else that God may have desired. We know the Sabbath was established at creation, we know that some sort of sacrificial offering was communicated by the story of Cain and Abel, and we know that Abraham kept God's laws, statutes, and commandments. These things we know from scripture. No other details are provided.
Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.
In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.
Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?
Gen. 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons
They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.
It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.
Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses.
What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.
So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.
Repeating the same thing over and again and at greater length, does not change anything. The scriptures tell us when the Sabbath was established. It was established at creation. Genesis records it, and the fourth commandment confirms this. Denying this because the scriptures don't address who did or did not keep the Sabbath until Moses, is unsound reasoning. If you want to think no one kept it go ahead, but if you deny its existence when the word of God conclusively records its origin at creation and confirmation of the same in the fourth commandment, then you are just in denial. That is all.
Nice breakdown of the facts from Genesis, Michael. It reminded me of St. Stephen recounting the history of Israel to the Sanhedrin. It is a truth that God did not reveal the sabbath to anyone before the time of Moses since it was through him that it was made known (see Nehemiah 9:14). Adventists like Amo want the scriptures to say what they want them to say, that the people in Genesis knew about and kept the sabbath just as Ellen White their prophetess taught them. This isn't true and contradicts the scripture's testimony. The fact is the sabbath was first made known to mankind (the Hebrews) in Exodus 16:23-30. Again, well done sir!
What a surprise, you agree with Michael, I would have never guessed it. I think comparing the above to Stephen's testimony was going quite a bit to far though. But hey, I guess we all choose our own hero's.
I agree with Michael because he states the truth of scripture that no one is recorded in the entire book of Genesis, including Abraham, as having either known about a command to keep the sabbath, let alone kept a sabbath. All you have is assumptions Amo that persons in Genesis kept a sabbath commandment. You don't have a "Thus saith the Lord" now do you? But I have a "Thus saith the Lord" telling me that the sabbath was made known by the hand (i.e. writing) of Moses. Hear what scripture DOES say:
Quote from: Nehemiah 9:13-14
You came down also on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them just ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments. You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, by the hand of Moses Your servant.
When does scripture say God revealed His sabbath to mankind? First in Exodus 16:23-30, and then in Exodus 20:8-10 at Mt. Sinai. And how did God reveal His sabbath to mankind? By the hand of Moses His servant, just as scripture says.
Now, where's your "Thus saith the Lord" Amo?? Or are we simply to go on your assumptions that the people in Genesis must have kept the sabbath because it says that Abraham kept God's commandments, statutes, and judgments (as though scripture must fit within your understanding of what those things are)? We have a clear testimony from scripture that the sabbath was made known through Moses. You have your assumptions. Guess which outweighs the other Amo?
Same ignorant argument. The Sabbath was established at creation according to scripture. You assume God just decided to establish it but didn't tell anyone about it, or expect anyone to make it special just because He blessed and sanctified it immediately after the creation of the world and everything in it. You think that is sound deduction, I do not. Nothing can be proved from scripture either way. Nevertheless, God established the Sabbath at creation.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Besides not being able to take what is clearly a joke, please quote for us these "non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years" so that I may review them. I asked you before for references to the many Sunday laws you referred to in a previous comment, but you were unable to provide any. Again I ask you, show these Sunday laws you speak of over the past 1600-1700 years. I'll wait...
Here, try this page -
http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n0/mode/2up (http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n0/mode/2up)
: Amo: DMABesides not being able to take what is clearly a joke, please quote for us these "non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years" so that I may review them. I asked you before for references to the many Sunday laws you referred to in a previous comment, but you were unable to provide any. Again I ask you, show these Sunday laws you speak of over the past 1600-1700 years. I'll wait...
Here, try this page -
http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n0/mode/2up (http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n0/mode/2up)
It is unacceptable to reference someone to an entire book when asked to provide evidence for one's assertion, Amo. Since you made the assertion of "
non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years" it is, therefore, incumbent upon you to provide your evidence of the same when it is requested of you. Otherwise, your assertion remains unfounded. And your evidence cannot be, "Read this book!" That is unacceptable in any debate.
: DMA Mon Jun 05, 2017 - 13:42:39
: Amo: DMABesides not being able to take what is clearly a joke, please quote for us these "non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years" so that I may review them. I asked you before for references to the many Sunday laws you referred to in a previous comment, but you were unable to provide any. Again I ask you, show these Sunday laws you speak of over the past 1600-1700 years. I'll wait...
Here, try this page -
http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n0/mode/2up (http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n0/mode/2up)
It is unacceptable to reference someone to an entire book when asked to provide evidence for one's assertion, Amo. Since you made the assertion of "non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years" it is, therefore, incumbent upon you to provide your evidence of the same when it is requested of you. Otherwise, your assertion remains unfounded. And your evidence cannot be, "Read this book!" That is unacceptable in any debate.
Right, like I'm going to go copy and paste over and over again, which I do plenty enough of, when you can just look the book over yourself. I don't think so. The book is filled with what you asked for, its online, and you can take a peek whenever you have time. Just look up blue laws on your search engine, and you'll have plenty to take in.
Blue laws in the past are irrelevant to the future.
The post-Christian culture in the United States and the rest of the world will not impose Catholic blue laws on commerce.
: Texas Conservative Sat Jun 10, 2017 - 15:26:47
Blue laws in the past are irrelevant to the future.
The post-Christian culture in the United States and the rest of the world will not impose Catholic blue laws on commerce.
There are still blue laws in effect where I live, and many other places. There are still many trying to reestablish them. Sunday laws of the future will no doubt take on a new guise, they will not be able to be passed as religious laws. They will be tied to the common good.
: Michael2012 Sun Mar 19, 2017 - 10:33:22
Amo<<The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out.>>
What I understand is that, your position with regards to the Sabbaths mentioned in Col.2 is that they are not referring to the sabbath of the fourth commandment by reason of verse 22.
May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians?
1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.
5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.
6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"
7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'
8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.
9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:
And Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so?
Finally, Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?
The fourth commandment concerning the seventh day Sabbath is one of the ten spoken by the mouth of God Himself to the nation of Israel and written with His own finger twice in stone. No man can alter any of them but at the peril of their life. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ testified to this when here as one of us.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The rest of the laws for the nation of Israel were written by the hand of man. Some were absolutely meant to be done away with after the establishment of the new covenant era and the opening of the blessings of God upon citizens of all nations of the earth by faith in Christ Jesus the Savior of humanity. This, as the OT itself prophesied.
Genesis 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Isaiah speaks quite a bit about the salvation of the gentiles also. The seventh day Sabbath predates the Jews by two thousand years. It was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall. Perfect humanity created in the image of God were to observe the seventh day. It will also be kept in the new heaven and new earth after the judgment of this world according to Isaiah as well.
Isa 66:12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
The saints of God in these last days especially shall keep the commandments of God and have the faith and or testimony of Jesus. That is, they shall keep the commandments of God by the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Amo,
Apparently you have not answered most of my questions as listed below. But if you have, I'm sorry, I don't quite get what they are. So, if you are kind enough, can you please first give a direct answer and if needed, you can go on and explain it.
1. May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians? (pls refer to the above discussion)
2. Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so? (pls refer to the above discussion)
3. Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath?
4. On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?
I'll be commenting on the rest of what you posted and on your reply to this at the same time. And so, please be kind enough to answer my simple questions. Thanks.
Where were the Jews when the Sabbath was made, Christ makes clear it was for mankind at Creation.
: Hobie Fri Jun 14, 2019 - 18:17:04
Where were the Jews when the Sabbath was made, Christ makes clear it was for mankind at Creation.
Where?
Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians?
Worshipping God, at no time or day and place, be said to be a bad thing or wrong, much more be the downfall of many Christians.
Anyone who believes that Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians has been duped. First of all I don't know of anyone that worships Sunday. I do know that millions worship on Sunday. Is there some place in the Bible that is opposed for anyone to worship on Sunday? Please show us where so that we can modify our behavior. If you cannot show us then quit telling us all the SDA falsehood.
: piecrust Fri Jun 14, 2019 - 18:48:27
Where?
Mk 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. 24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? 25 And he said unto them,
Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? 26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? 27 And he said unto them,
The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.The Sabbath was made for humanity by Jesus Christ who created all the world and humanity 2000 years before there ever was an Israelite. Do you think your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was unaware of tis when He made the above quoted statement? He created the Sabbath for humanity as He plainly stated.
Col :13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
: beam Sun Jun 30, 2019 - 07:48:46
Anyone who believes that Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians has been duped. First of all I don't know of anyone that worships Sunday. I do know that millions worship on Sunday. Is there some place in the Bible that is opposed for anyone to worship on Sunday? Please show us where so that we can modify our behavior. If you cannot show us then quit telling us all the SDA falsehood.
Saturn worshippers don't have any real biblical proof against meeting together on the Lord's Day.
Sunday worship has already been the downfall of many a professed Christian, is their downfall today, and will continue to be their downfall in the future. All who have supported and enforced Sunday laws with civil legislation upon any unwilling have and do malign the character of God in Christ Jesus His Son. All "Christians" who seek to and do establish their faith through compulsion of state laws have rejected the Holy Spirit of God in favor of fallen humanity for the conviction and establishment of souls into the body of Christ. They have rejected the Savior as the head of His body in favor of Caesar as their Lord.
Lk 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? 23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me? 24 Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's. 25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. 26 And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.
Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
All who would make the kingdom of Christ a kingdom of this world will perish with this world.
The Sabbath was NOT "made", <at> creation; God "made" the SEVENTH Day AFTER He had created "very good" ALL that He had created "in SIX days .. and it was the Sixth Day".
"On the SEVENTH Day" which is the day directly following "the Sixth Day" which is the last of the first six days which God had created <at creation>, "God (having) blessed the Seventh Day .. hallowed the Seventh Day .. finished the Seventh Day .. RESTED the Seventh Day" and thus "made the Sabbath".
God "made the Sabbath" by having MADE "the Seventh Day the Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" -- which was God's WORK OF AND ON "the Seventh Day God THUS CONCERNING DID SPEAK .. BY THE SON .. THE SON OF MAN LORD OF THE SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD OF HIS PEOPLE THE PEOPLE OF GOD.
: Amo Sun Jun 30, 2019 - 11:11:00
Sunday worship has already been the downfall of many a professed Christian, is their downfall today, and will continue to be their downfall in the future. All who have supported and enforced Sunday laws with civil legislation upon any unwilling have and do malign the character of God in Christ Jesus His Son. All "Christians" who seek to and do establish their faith through compulsion of state laws have rejected the Holy Spirit of God in favor of fallen humanity for the conviction and establishment of souls into the body of Christ. They have rejected the Savior as the head of His body in favor of Caesar as their Lord.
Lk 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? 23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me? 24 Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's. 25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. 26 And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.
Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
All who would make the kingdom of Christ a kingdom of this world will perish with this world.
Does not apply at all to me or my brethren.
: Texas Conservative Sun Jun 30, 2019 - 17:14:11
Does not apply at all to me or my brethren.
That is a good thing.
: Michael2012 Sun May 14, 2017 - 14:12:50.
Yes, there was something about the seventh day Sabbath. God established it at creation. You presume that was the end of it, I assume it was likely part of the statutes, commandments, and laws Abraham kept. Neither can be proved from scripture. God observed it the first day of Adam and Eve's creation, I can think of no good reason why they would not have observed it with Him, can you? Having once observed it, would they then just forget about it? None of this can be proved from scripture, it simply is not addressed. You have your reasons for choosing to believe the Sabbath had no significance until Israel I am sure, just as I have mine. Neither can be absolutely proved from scripture.
In that case then, there is no real cause for arguing the matter of the Sabbath, isn't it?
But perhaps we can agree that in scriptures, we can read the commandments regarding the Sabbath in Exodus and that God gave it to Israel in the wilderness at Mt. Sinai for them to keep.
No one said anything about a law written in stone. Nor do I believe those who followed God just guessed what to do, or just knew instinctively what to do. God revealed it to them. SDA's know there is no mention of Sabbath observance until Israel. They are not disappointed to find out what they already know. You are not making a new revelation to anyone.
Of course definitely God gave them revelation. HOW, is the matter. And from Adam, no law was written in stones or what have they then to write upon. Nor can we read of a time then that God gave commandments, not to mean that He certainly did not. But what is sure is that, after the fall of Adam, men began to have SOME knowledge of good and evil. That would mean that they have knowledge and sense of morality, of what is righteous and what is not, what is offensive to God and what is pleasing to God.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Either they knew of God or they didn't. Paul testifies that they did.
Yes, Paul states that they knew God. And that is what I said in my post.
I have read them. You assume the whole of all interaction between God and Abraham is recorded apparently. I do not. The scriptures do not record all the details of anyone's life, and that is a good thing. They would not be finished to this day otherwise.
I don't assume anything Amo. I was just pointing out what one can learn from what is written in scriptures.
I don't believe I have ever said it was a law. I say it was established at creation. It precedes all of God's laws for humanity. It was established before any other. You choose to believe it was ignored by all or not even thought of until Israel, I think that highly unlikely.
And I did not say that you did. But in our discussion, what you are saying that is established at creation seems to imply that you are speaking of a law on the 7th day Sabbath, for we are talking about the 4th commandment. That is why I have been asking to clarify if what is established at creation in Gen.2:1-3, is a law or is God's rest. For, it is very material to this discussion for you to answer this. So, is it a law or not?
Same old, same old, same old. I have read the scriptures just like you my friend. God did not give the ten commandments through Moses. He spoke them Himself to Israel, and wrote them for Israel with His own hand as well.
The matter is WHY the ten commandments, statutes, and laws, were given by God to Israel. In your reading of scriptures, have you known WHY?
Its what Gods governance is based on.
: Hobie Fri Aug 14, 2026 - 17:50:55Its what Gods governance is based on.
Hobie, I would offer the word REST.
God finished His work and rested the seventh day:
"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work." — Genesis 2:2
The important principle is finished work followed by rest.
Hebrews carries that principle forward:
"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his." — Hebrews 4:10
That is why I see the seventh day as pointing beyond a twenty-four-hour ceremonial observance to the eternal rest found in Christ's finished work.
The six days speak of the work; the seventh speaks of REST—the work finished.
Likewise, the ceremonial Sabbath and its fast were shadows pointing ahead. Christ later gave the promised three-day-and-three-night sign of Jonas, demonstrating what had already been promised in the Scriptures.
"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." — Hebrews 4:9
Nothing new under the sun. The shadows did not create the finished work; they pointed ahead to it. The Gospel reveals the spiritual reality that was hidden in those ceremonial pictures.
The command therefore reaches deeper than observe a day:
Enter His REST.
: garee Mon Aug 17, 2026 - 08:47:03Hobie, I would offer the word REST.
God finished His work and rested the seventh day:
"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work." — Genesis 2:2
The important principle is finished work followed by rest.
Hebrews carries that principle forward:
"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his." — Hebrews 4:10
That is why I see the seventh day as pointing beyond a twenty-four-hour ceremonial observance to the eternal rest found in Christ's finished work.
The six days speak of the work; the seventh speaks of REST—the work finished.
Likewise, the ceremonial Sabbath and its fast were shadows pointing ahead. Christ later gave the promised three-day-and-three-night sign of Jonas, demonstrating what had already been promised in the Scriptures.
"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." — Hebrews 4:9
Nothing new under the sun. The shadows did not create the finished work; they pointed ahead to it. The Gospel reveals the spiritual reality that was hidden in those ceremonial pictures.
The command therefore reaches deeper than observe a day:
Enter His REST.
Yes, there is nothing new under the sun. Including your above testimony that entering God's rest includes more than the observance of one day. Nor is your continued false insistence that God's seventh day sabbath is part of ceremonial law, or simply a shadow. It is part of God's moral law. Who are you to insist it has deeper meaning than just observing a day, but then turn around and insist that it has no more meaning than a shadow at the same time.
Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,........
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Who are you to call one of God's ten Commandments spoken into existence by Him at creation, and to all Israel by His own mouth, and written in tables of stone with His own finger, which He has declared will be kept in the New Heaven and New Earth as well, a mere shadow? To the contrary, as the true half of your own argument claims, it represents far deeper realities and continued spiritual significance.