This is a very important study I just finished today, please read carefully.
PART 1 OF 1
The teaching of the trinity is a lie, hence why its mention in this verse of scripture,
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7 [KJV])
Only exists in a few manuscripts, all dated much later in time, and because of this is why most English translations of this verse do not render it with this trinitarian forgery. The only other reference of the trinity in scripture is this verse,
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matthew 28:19 [NIV])
And although most, if not all manuscripts have been lost rendering this verse in its original way without the mention of the trinity, this verse has also been forged because of its clear contradiction with these other verses to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ only, as opposed to in the name of the trinity,
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 [NIV])
because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Acts 8:16 [NIV])
So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
(Acts 10:48 [NIV])
On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:5 [NIV])
And whatever you should ask in my name, this I shall do, that the father should be glorified in the son. (John 14:13 [ABP])
And everything, what ever you should do in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to the God and father by him. (Colossians 3:17 [ABP])
And when they believed Philip announcing good news, the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were immersed, both men and women. (Acts 8:12 [ABP])
And ultimately, God is not three, but he is only one being, literally, hence,
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (Deuteronomy 6:4 [NIV])
Who, as one God, is figuratively one in unity with all who are his, hence,
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. (John 17:21 [NIV])
I and the Father are one. (John 10:30 [NIV])
Just as a husband is figuratively one in unity with his wife,
That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. (Genesis 2:24 [NIV])
And as one God, he had one single son,
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16 [NIV])
And since a son comes after a father in time, and the Father had no beginning, this son therefore came forth into existence in the beginning, hence,
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:5 [NIV])
In which case, day one of creation was the day God became Father to this son, because before day one, the son did not exist for God to have been his Father,
I will proclaim the LORD's decree: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your father. (Psalm 2:7 [NIV])
And this is also why this son is called firstborn of all creation,
The Son... the firstborn over all creation. (Colossians 1:15 [NIV])
And although God had more sons,
the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful... (Genesis 6:2 [NIV])
It was through this son, by his own speech, that all life came into existence,
because by him were created – all in the heavens and upon the earth; the visible, and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities – all by him and for him were created. (Colossians 1:16 [INTERLINEARIZED])
All through him emerged, and without him emerged not even one that has emerged (John 1:3 [INTERLINEARIZED])
Hence why he is also called "word of God", because he spoke all life into existence in the beginning,
And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky." (Genesis 1:20 [NIV])
And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures... (Genesis 1:24 [NIV])
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image..." (Genesis 1:26 [NIV])
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1 [NIV])
And also why he is called "only son", because Jesus Christ was the only being directly created by the Father, as opposed to all other beings who were indirectly created by God through the speech of Jesus Christ,
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
(Proverbs 8:22-25 [NIV])
Yet to us one God the Father of whom all and we for him and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all and we by him (1 Corinthians 8:6 [INTERLINEARIZED])
And so, Jesus Christ is this wisdom that God brought as the first of his works, hence why he is also called the wisdom of God,
But out of Him, you are in Christ Jesus, who has been made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption,(1 Corinthians 1:30 [BLB])
but those called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:24 [BLB])
This son is also called God,
...and the Word was God. (John 1:1 [NIV])
Because although the Father is greater than the son,
...for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28 [NIV])
And the Father alone has infinite knowledge,
Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered... (Luke 12:7 [NIV])
Great is our Lord, and great is his strength; and there is no number of his understanding. (Psalms 147:5 [ABP])
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Matthew 24:36 [NIV])
Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens? Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance? (Isaiah 40:12 [NIV])
And the Father alone predestines and determines all things,
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared. (Mark 10:40 [NIV])
For those God foreknew he also predestined... (Romans 8:29 [NIV])
We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])
And the Father alone cannot be contained by the highest heaven, or even the earth, or much less a body of flesh and bones,
"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built! (1 Kings 8:27 [NIV])
Jesus Christ, who is lesser than the Father, was created to be the highest representation of the Father in his own creation, to where even Jesus Christ was given authority to be creator as the Father was first creator, whereupon not only did all life come through Jesus Christ, but also the world, since before the world came to be, the Father first brought forth the earth into existence, hence why it was still unseen and unready to be populated,
But the earth was unseen and unready, and darkness was upon the abyss.... (Genesis 1:2 [ABP])
And in wisdom, through the speech of Jesus Christ, God then created the world upon the earth,
But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding. (Jeremiah 10:12 [NIV])
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. (John 1:10 [NIV])
Whereupon the first few utterances Jesus Christ made to begin creating the world were,
And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. (Genesis 1:3 [NIV])
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. (Genesis 1:6 [KJV])
And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. (Genesis 1:9 [NIV])
Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. (Genesis 1:11 [NIV])
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. (Genesis 1:14 [KJV])
And so, not only was Jesus Christ creator as the Father is creator, but he was also given all authority in heaven and earth after his resurrection, just as God has authority over all heaven and earth,
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Matthew 28:18 [NIV])
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Philippians 2:9 [NIV])
And will one day return to the earth as the representation of God, in full glory and power,
"At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (Mark 13:26 [NIV])
To judge the world in righteousness as God,
Let all creation rejoice before the LORD, for he comes, he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in his faithfulness. (Psalm 96:13 [NIV])
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead." (Acts 17:31 [NIV])
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, (John 5:22 [NIV])
And in a similar manner that Moses, as a representation of God, was given authority to be like God,
Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1 [NIV])
To bring forth powerful judgments against Egypt,
Say therefore to the people of Israel, 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from slavery to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great acts of judgment. (Exodus 6:6 [ESV])
And in a similar manner than even angels, as representations of God, are given authority to also be like God, hence why the angel that spoke to Moses spoke as God,
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. (Exodus 3:2 [NIV])
Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God. (Exodus 3:6 [NIV])
And angels were given authority to bring the laws of God to man,
you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it." (Acts 7:53 [NIV])
Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. (Galatians 3:19 [NIV])
Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently. (Exodus 19:18 [NIV])
PART 2 OF 2
And even fallen angels are called "gods" because they were originally created as representations of God before they became wicked, yet still have great authority over the earth,
"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' (Psalm 82:6 [NIV])
in which the god of this eon blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so as to not shine forth to them the illumination of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is image of the unseen of God. (II Corinthians 4:4 [ABP])
And in likewise manner that even the destiny of the elect is to be like God, hence why the elect will not only be glorified,
Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear. (Matthew 13:43 [NIV])
But also given authority to rule on the earth,
To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations-- (Revelation 2:26 [NIV])
And authority to also judge on the earth,
Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! (1 Corinthians 6:2-3 [NIV])
As representations of God, hence,
by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. (2 Peter 1:4 [ESV])
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12 [KJV])
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])
So has Jesus Christ been given authority, in a much higher way than any man or angel, to one day bring forth powerful judgments, not just against one city, but against the entire world, in which case by the last bowl judgment, all the cities of the world will collapse,
The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence. And the mountains shall be thrown down, and the cliffs shall fall, and every wall shall tumble to the ground.
(Ezekiel 38:20 [ESV])
Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. (Revelation 16:19-20 [NIV])
And it is because of the height of this authority and exaltation given to Jesus Christ, above all men and angels, that Jesus Christ is indeed God, because he is the full exact representation, expression, and image of the Father in creation, above all other created beings, hence,
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature... (Hebrews 1:3 [BSB])
The Son is the image of the invisible God... (Colossians 1:15 [NIV])
And although earth itself cannot contain the Father himself, Jesus Christ came and dwelled in the world as God, as if it were the Father himself, because he is the one and only being created in the exact representation of God,
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 [NIV])
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us"). (Matthew 1:23 [NIV])
And so, this is why the way to the Father is through the son,
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6 [NIV])
Because whoever worships the representation of God, which is the son, also worships the Father, hence,
...Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (John 14:9 [NIV])
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. (John 5:23 [NIV])
And so, because only the Father and the son existed in the beginning, therefore, the spirit of God that existed in the beginning,
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. (Genesis 1:2 [NIV])
After the Father himself first created the heavens and earth,
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1 [NIV])
Was his very own son, since the spirit of God mentioned in Genesis was the very son that God brought forth into existence, who then began to speak all life into existence, hence why,
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life. (Job 33:4 [NIV])
And after his firstborn son, God had more sons,
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. (Job 1:6 [ESV])
Which were angels, and so, in relation to this passage in Isaiah,
In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them. (Isaiah 63:9-10 [NIV])
All angels of God are also "spirits of God", or rather, "holy spirits", hence why this angel in Isaiah is called a holy spirit, and why it is said of angels,
In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire." (Hebrews 1:7 [NIV])
In which case, the form of spirit is the form of wind, since both words, "spirit" and "wind", are synonymous in the Hebrew and in the Greek, hence,
he makes his messengers winds, his ministers a flaming fire. (Psalm 104:4 [ESV])
And also why it is said that all angels of God are holy,
Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. (Luke 9:26 [NIV])
And so, a reference to the "holy spirit", or "spirit of God", is a reference to a holy angel that has taken the invisible form of wind, so that he may then enter into and inhabit a believer through his breath, hence,
[31] For you are able one by one all to prophesy, that all should learn and all should be comforted. [32] For spirits of prophets submit to prophets. (1 Corinthians 14:31-32 [ABP])
In which case, each believer that is baptized in the holy spirit receives one single holy spirit to guide him from within. This is why the elect are instructed to test every spirit,
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1 John 4:2 [KJV])
Because there is not just only one holy spirit, but there is an innumerable amount of spirits of God, which are all holy angels, just as there is an innumerable amount of spirits that are not of God, which are fallen angels or demons. This is also why the holy spirit has a personality, emotions, and will of his own,
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. (Romans 8:26 [NIV])
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. (John 14:26 [NIV])
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30 [NIV])
Because the holy spirit is an actual angel, and Paul's warning to not grieve the holy spirit correlates with the angel in the passage in Isaiah,
the angel of his presence saved them... Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy... (Isaiah 63:9-10 [NIV])
Which is the same angel referenced in Exodus,
"See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. (Exodus 23:20 [NIV])
In which case, when this angel became grieved, or rather, when this holy spirit became grieved, he did not forgive them,
Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. (Exodus 23:21 [ESV])
And turned against them and killed them, as in this example,
The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them along with Korah, whose followers died when the fire devoured the 250 men. And they served as a warning sign. (Numbers 26:10 [NIV])
...So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them. (Isaiah 63:10 [NIV])
Which is why the same holy spirit that is sent to guide each of the elect, also does not forgive sins,
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin." (Mark 3:29 [NIV])
And kills when he becomes offended,
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?... When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:3-5 [NIV])
Because the holy spirit that guides the elect now is an angel, just as the holy spirit that guided the Israelites before was also an angel.
::doh::
"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (Matt. 3:16,17)
Please note: Jesus is baptized and raises out of the water. The Holy Spirit descends from Heaven, Then a Voice from Heaven declares "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased". The verses are clearly showing us the existence of a Trinity.
"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. (John 5:22,23)
Please note: Jesus says that the Father desires everyone to honor the Son JUST AS they honor the Father. We clearly see a reference to TWO PERSONS WITH EQUAL HONOR. Though not spoken of here---the Holy Spirit is the third person with equal honor.
"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word". (Heb 1:3)
May I ask, how can a created finite being be the EXACT REPRESENTATION of an INFINITE BEING? The logical answer is that a finite creature CANNOT be the EXACT REPRESENTATION of an INFINITE BEING.
You spent two long posts teaching us how God is not a Trinity. It only takes a few verses to prove that what you teach is heresy----and that God is indeed a Trinity.
Unless you know well how to combat false doctrine and you are trained up in the field of apologetics, I suggest that obedience to the following verse is needed for many:
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18.
I did not even read cvagaria's post because I understand that its premise is based in false doctrine. Every cult that has ever been denies the Trintiy in some way, shape or form. So in reading this thread, I went straight to fish153's response and was edified by it.
It helps to know who are the faithful teachers of God's word on these forums.
: justbyfaith Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 00:48:41
Unless you know well how to combat false doctrine and you are trained up in the field of apologetics, I suggest that obedience to the following verse is needed for many:
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18.
I did not even read cvagaria's post because I understand that its premise is based in false doctrine. Every cult that has ever been denies the Trintiy in some way, shape or form. So in reading this thread, I went straight to fish153's response and was edified by it.
It helps to know who are the faithful teachers of God's word on these forums.
Good comment and right on point.
: fish153 Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 18:15:12
"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (Matt. 3:16,17)
Please note: Jesus is baptized and raises out of the water. The Holy Spirit descends from Heaven, Then a Voice from Heaven declares "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased". The verses are clearly showing us the existence of a Trinity.
"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. (John 5:22,23)
Please note: Jesus says that the Father desires everyone to honor the Son JUST AS they honor the Father. We clearly see a reference to TWO PERSONS WITH EQUAL HONOR. Though not spoken of here---the Holy Spirit is the third person with equal honor.
"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word". (Heb 1:3)
May I ask, how can a created finite being be the EXACT REPRESENTATION of an INFINITE BEING? The logical answer is that a finite creature CANNOT be the EXACT REPRESENTATION of an INFINITE BEING.
You spent two long posts teaching us how God is not a Trinity. It only takes a few verses to prove that what you teach is heresy----and that God is indeed a Trinity.
+1
The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
You did a very good job of showing men that you are deeply deceived concerning the Godhead. I would debate you one on one in the debate forum on the doctrine of the Trinity. My understanding is different than many and certainly different than yours for sure. I believe that the Jehovah is ONE GOD, yet clearly manifested to us as THREE according to their respective work in creation and the redemption of the elect seed. Btw~Jesus Christ was NOT created but CONCEIVED by the power of the Highest in the womb of a virgin named Mary! Come and debate me one on one, just you and I. I will start it with what you have posted here.
: RB Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 07:17:36
The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
You did a very good job of showing men that you are deeply deceived concerning the Godhead. I would debate you one on one in the debate forum on the doctrine of the Trinity. My understanding is different than many and certainly different than yours for sure. I believe that the Jehovah is ONE GOD, yet clearly manifested to us as THREE according to their respective work in creation and the redemption of the elect seed. Btw~Jesus Christ was NOT created but CONCEIVED by the power of the Highest in the womb of a virgin named Mary! Come and debate me one on one, just you and I. I will start it with what you have posted here.
+1
cjavaria
Do you believe in the following?
We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
We look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)
: fish153 Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 18:15:12
"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (Matt. 3:16,17)
Please note: Jesus is baptized and raises out of the water. The Holy Spirit descends from Heaven, Then a Voice from Heaven declares "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased". The verses are clearly showing us the existence of a Trinity.
"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. (John 5:22,23)
Please note: Jesus says that the Father desires everyone to honor the Son JUST AS they honor the Father. We clearly see a reference to TWO PERSONS WITH EQUAL HONOR. Though not spoken of here---the Holy Spirit is the third person with equal honor.
"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word". (Heb 1:3)
May I ask, how can a created finite being be the EXACT REPRESENTATION of an INFINITE BEING? The logical answer is that a finite creature CANNOT be the EXACT REPRESENTATION of an INFINITE BEING.
You spent two long posts teaching us how God is not a Trinity. It only takes a few verses to prove that what you teach is heresy----and that God is indeed a Trinity.
Jesus Christ is not identical to the Father when it is said he is the representation of God, hence why he says he is lesser than the Father,
...
the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28 [NIV])
But rather, to be made in the representation of God, or rather, in the image of God,
The Son is the
image of the invisible God... (Colossians 1:15 [NIV])
Implies to be made in the similitude of God. It would be as if I created a small action figure of myself, made in my own resemblance. The action figure can look like me, and have characteristics of me, but the doll can never be me, because I am much larger and more complex than he. This is why even Adam was also made in the image of God,
Then God said, "
Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness.... (Genesis 1:26 [NIV])
Because although he was created, he was made as a representation of God and thus given authority to rule over the earth,
...
so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (Genesis 1:26 [NIV])
Just
like God, who is greater, rules over all creation. "Authority" is a characteristic of any being made in the image of God, because God has "authority", hence why Jesus Christ was given authority to rule over all heaven and earth, and why even the elect will one day rule the earth, of which even the elect are being conformed to the representation of God,
For those God foreknew
he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.(Romans 8:29 [NIV])
Yet Jesus Christ is called the "exact" representation, because his representations of God is the
greatest. It would be as if I had several action figures of myself, all of varying sizes, with one, larger than the others. The largest action figure is a more "exact" representation of myself because it is closer in size to me.
If you cannot correctly understand this, then you will also not understand many other matters.
: justbyfaith Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 00:48:41
Unless you know well how to combat false doctrine and you are trained up in the field of apologetics, I suggest that obedience to the following verse is needed for many:
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18.
I did not even read cvagaria's post because I understand that its premise is based in false doctrine. Every cult that has ever been denies the Trintiy in some way, shape or form. So in reading this thread, I went straight to fish153's response and was edified by it.
It helps to know who are the faithful teachers of God's word on these forums.
You do yourself a disfavor by searing yourself shut. But fine, be my guest.
: RB Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 07:17:36
The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity
You did a very good job of showing men that you are deeply deceived concerning the Godhead. I would debate you one on one in the debate forum on the doctrine of the Trinity. My understanding is different than many and certainly different than yours for sure. I believe that the Jehovah is ONE GOD, yet clearly manifested to us as THREE according to their respective work in creation and the redemption of the elect seed. Btw~Jesus Christ was NOT created but CONCEIVED by the power of the Highest in the womb of a virgin named Mary! Come and debate me one on one, just you and I. I will start it with what you have posted here.
I can easily debunk your statement by pointing out that YHWH, (btw, "Jehovah" is not even close to the correct pronunciation of the tetragrammaton, ask a local rabbi who actually knows Hebrew),
was the name of the angel, hence,
There
the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. (Exodus 3:2 [NIV])
And God saith again unto Moses, 'Thus dost thou say unto the sons of Israel,
Jehovah, God of your fathers, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you;
this is My name -- to the age, and this My memorial, to generation -- generation. (Exodus 3:15 [YLT])
In which case, the name of this angel was the name of the Father up until a new name was given to us,
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and
gave him the name that is above every name, (Philippians 2:9 [NIV])
Which was the name of Jesus,
that at
the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, (Philippians 2:10 [NIV])
And it is the name of Jesus, that is now the name of the Father, hence,
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of
your name,
the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. (John 17:11 [NIV])
This is why the name of YHWH is no longer used, because the Father himself does not directly have a name. Naming things involves language and speech, and since language and speech are things that are themselves created, the Father has no direct name that he would've given himself. This is why the Father is identified as,
God said to Moses, "
I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: '
I AM has sent me to you.'" (Exodus 3:14 [NIV])
The Father just IS and HAS ALWAYS BEEN and WILL ALWAYS BE. And so, in his own creation, even though he himself does not have a name,
his name, in his own creation, is the name he gave to whomever is his own representation in his own creation, in which case, the greatest name given to any being is now the name of Jesus. This is why the name of YHWH is never used in any of the gospels nor epistles nor Revelation, because that was the name of the angel, which has now been exceeded by a greater name, which is the name of Jesus.
This is also another reason why the doctrine of the trinity is complete nonsense, "...in the name of the Father...", not only is there no direct name for God, but "Father" not even the name of God, it is a title. The doctrine of the trinity is based on complete ignorance and lack of understanding of scripture.
cgaviria, have you ever met anyone who shares your discoveries and theology?
Cgaviria,
You are the living proof of 1 Corinthians 2:14
"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 08:38:48
cjavaria
Do you believe in the following?
We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
We look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)
I believe the scriptures quoted herein, but not the Nicene Creed itself, which you have quoted. To equate the Nicene Creed as scripture would be like grabbing a Joyce Meyer book and saying, this is scripture. I will also point out that the original creed, which you have modified to suit your own fancy, did you not read as you quoted it, but as so,
"...we believe in one
holy catholic and apostolic church...."
This is clearly a catholic document, not a document written by any of the apostles. And do not think to even say that "catholic" is referring to the universal church, because if it were, then there would be no need to reference a second church. This is without a doubt a catholic document that errs in a very subtle way.
: AVZ Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:38:46
Cgaviria,
You are the living proof of 1 Corinthians 2:14
"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."
And somehow the same cannot be said of you? Careful now, you hold yourself in a very high position presuming yourself to be right, yet in scripture we read,
Do not be wise in your own eyes... (Proverbs 3:7 [NIV])
: MeMyself Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:19:53
cgaviria, have you ever met anyone who shares your discoveries and theology?
Does it matter? Popularity is not a a validator of truth.
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 10:16:15
: MeMyself Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:19:53
cgaviria, have you ever met anyone who shares your discoveries and theology?
Does it matter? Popularity is not a a validator of truth.
Yeah, it kinda does; if you make these out to be salvation issues.
Do you?
: MeMyself Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 10:32:29
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 10:16:15
: MeMyself Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:19:53
cgaviria, have you ever met anyone who shares your discoveries and theology?
Does it matter? Popularity is not a a validator of truth.
Yeah, it kinda does; if you make these out to be salvation issues.
Do you?
Are not only a few chosen?
"For many are invited, but
few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14 [NIV])
So it should stand to reason that the few that are chosen are the only ones who actually understand the truth,
Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked.
None of the wicked will understand, but
those who are wise will understand. (Daniel 12:10 [NIV])
This is why popularity is not a indicator of truth, but rather, it is whoever knows and understands the scriptures. Is gay marriage not popular in America? Yet even in spite of its popularity, it is still evil according to scripture. As such, popularity is not a validator of truth, but whoever knows and understands the scripture, even if it be only one person left, he is right.
I have presented the scriptures and spoken rightly about them. Now, will you believe or will you not?
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:18:23This is also another reason why the doctrine of the trinity is complete nonsense, "...in the name of the Father...", not only is there no direct name for God, but "Father" not even the name of God, it is a title. The doctrine of the trinity is based on complete ignorance and lack of understanding of scripture.
I made an offer to you so that we can debate one on one, which truly is the only way a position can be proven. When others are involved then everyone gives their understanding which generally there are several different ones and no one is able to prove what they are attempting to prove. I personally do not hold to what is considered mainstream belief on the Trinity which is nothing more than Catholicism/EOC corruption of the Godhead. I prefer the use of the word Godhead, for so did Paul used that term.
Romans 1:20~"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
The Godhead is clearly revealed in
three persons yet we who know the truth know that there's but ONE GOD. First revealed as three:
2nd Corinthians 13:14~The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."
Yet there's
"only one God"~again Paul said:
1st Corinthians 8:5,6~"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
Wonderful and powerful scriptures revealing Paul's doctrine concerning the Godhead as he dividing the scriptures carefully and properly to give the Godhead their proper role in the redemption of the seed of Jesus Christ. So must we, or else we will end up being guilty of denying a certain aspect of the work of the Godhead as it relates to the salvation of the children of God. The Jehovah Witnesses boldly (as you do as well) reject his deity, while others fall prey to it unaware and innocently by blindly accepting the Eternal sonship doctrine of eternal generation as believed by RCC/EOC, who blindly followed the heresies of many so-called church fathers. That's another reason why I desire to debate this one on one. I'm waiting and willing.
Now, come and prove your doctrine in the debate forum.
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 10:41:58
: MeMyself Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 10:32:29
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 10:16:15
: MeMyself Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:19:53
cgaviria, have you ever met anyone who shares your discoveries and theology?
Does it matter? Popularity is not a a validator of truth.
Yeah, it kinda does; if you make these out to be salvation issues.
Do you?
Are not only a few chosen?
"For many are invited, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14 [NIV])
So it should stand to reason that the few that are chosen are the only ones who actually understand the truth,
So, I ask you again; *have* you found *any* that accept your version of truth? Or will you be the only on rambling around Heaven by yourself?
Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand. (Daniel 12:10 [NIV])
This is why popularity is not a indicator of truth, but rather, it is whoever knows and understands the scriptures. Is gay marriage not popular in America? Yet even in spite of its popularity, it is still evil according to scripture. As such, popularity is not a validator of truth, but whoever knows and understands the scripture, even if it be only one person left, he is right.
I have presented the scriptures and spoken rightly about them. Now, will you believe or will you not?
With all due respect, please stay on the topic at hand. You shouldn't need to deflect and make this about other wrongs. We are talking about the subject YOU started and brought up.
Scripture is clear that wise counsel is a good thing. (Proverbs 11:14) DO you have any that counsel you in the way you should go and your understanding?
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 10:16:15
: MeMyself Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:19:53
cgaviria, have you ever met anyone who shares your discoveries and theology?
Does it matter? Popularity is not a a validator of truth.
absolutely correct. The validator of truth is the Holy Spirit.
Hopefully you will meet Him some day. If you ask, He will come.
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:59:31
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 08:38:48
cjavaria
Do you believe in the following?
We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
We look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)
I believe the scriptures quoted herein, but not the Nicene Creed itself, which you have quoted. To equate the Nicene Creed as scripture would be like grabbing a Joyce Meyer book and saying, this is scripture. I will also point out that the original creed, which you have modified to suit your own fancy, did you not read as you quoted it, but as so,
"...we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church...."
This is clearly a catholic document, not a document written by any of the apostles. And do not think to even say that "catholic" is referring to the universal church, because if it were, then there would be no need to reference a second church. This is without a doubt a catholic document that errs in a very subtle way.
In the rules of this forum its necessary to believe the above which is entirely scriptural. Catholic does means universal BTW.
The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal"[1][2]) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole".[3][4] The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.
If you believe the above creed, then you believe in the trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
If you can't believe what is said then you need to leave this forum.
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 10:41:58
: MeMyself Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 10:32:29
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 10:16:15
: MeMyself Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:19:53
cgaviria, have you ever met anyone who shares your discoveries and theology?
Does it matter? Popularity is not a a validator of truth.
Yeah, it kinda does; if you make these out to be salvation issues.
Do you?
Are not only a few chosen?
"For many are invited, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14 [NIV])
So it should stand to reason that the few that are chosen are the only ones who actually understand the truth,
Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand. (Daniel 12:10 [NIV])
This is why popularity is not a indicator of truth, but rather, it is whoever knows and understands the scriptures. Is gay marriage not popular in America? Yet even in spite of its popularity, it is still evil according to scripture. As such, popularity is not a validator of truth, but whoever knows and understands the scripture, even if it be only one person left, he is right.
I have presented the scriptures and spoken rightly about them. Now, will you believe or will you not?
Not
cgaviria----
There is no need to spend a lot of time arguing with you about the Trinity or Deity of Jesus Christ. Either you listen to the scripture and allow the Holy Spirit to
enlighten you and give you discernment, or you can choose to continue to hold onto heretical doctrine. I will offer two more passages from Scripture which clearly
show that Jesus Christ is not a CREATED being---but is God Himself, a person of the Trinity, God the Son:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)
Please note that The Lord God says of Himself "I am the Alpha and the Omega".
Now----please note that the below verses are spoken by Jesus. It is in the same book of Revelation---and note---interestingly---the first verse above is in the
FIRST chapter of Revelation----and the below is in the LAST chapter of Revelation-----the first and the last. These two verses clearly show and
teach that Jesus is indeed God Himself, as He takes the same title as the Lord God does in chapter 1 of Revelation.
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." (Revelation 22: 12-16)
Either believe scripture or continue to hold to your heresy. I pray God will open your eyes to the truth.
: fish153 Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 12:30:45
cgaviria----
There is no need to spend a lot of time arguing with you about the Trinity or Deity of Jesus Christ. Either you listen to the scripture and allow the Holy Spirit to
enlighten you and give you discernment, or you can choose to continue to hold onto heretical doctrine. I will offer two more passages from Scripture which clearly
show that Jesus Christ is not a CREATED being---but is God Himself, a person of the Trinity, God the Son:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)
Please note that The Lord God says of Himself "I am the Alpha and the Omega".
Now----please note that the below verses are spoken by Jesus. It is in the same book of Revelation---and note---interestingly---the first verse above is in the
FIRST chapter of Revelation----and the below is in the LAST chapter of Revelation-----the first and the last. These two verses clearly show and
teach that Jesus is indeed God Himself, as He takes the same title as the Lord God does in chapter 1 of Revelation.
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." (Revelation 22: 12-16)
Either believe scripture or continue to hold to your heresy. I pray God will open your eyes to the truth.
Well said!
: RB Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 10:45:12
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:18:23This is also another reason why the doctrine of the trinity is complete nonsense, "...in the name of the Father...", not only is there no direct name for God, but "Father" not even the name of God, it is a title. The doctrine of the trinity is based on complete ignorance and lack of understanding of scripture.
I made an offer to you so that we can debate one on one, which truly is the only way a position can be proven. When others are involved then everyone gives their understanding which generally there are several different ones and no one is able to prove what they are attempting to prove. I personally do not hold to what is considered mainstream belief on the Trinity which is nothing more than Catholicism/EOC corruption of the Godhead. I prefer the use of the word Godhead, for so did Paul used that term. Romans 1:20~"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
The Godhead is clearly revealed in three persons yet we who know the truth know that there's but ONE GOD. First revealed as three: 2nd Corinthians 13:14~The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."
Yet there's "only one God"~again Paul said: 1st Corinthians 8:5,6~"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
Wonderful and powerful scriptures revealing Paul's doctrine concerning the Godhead as he dividing the scriptures carefully and properly to give the Godhead their proper role in the redemption of the seed of Jesus Christ. So must we, or else we will end up being guilty of denying a certain aspect of the work of the Godhead as it relates to the salvation of the children of God. The Jehovah Witnesses boldly (as you do as well) reject his deity, while others fall prey to it unaware and innocently by blindly accepting the Eternal sonship doctrine of eternal generation as believed by RCC/EOC, who blindly followed the heresies of many so-called church fathers. That's another reason why I desire to debate this one on one. I'm waiting and willing.
Now, come and prove your doctrine in the debate forum.
Have I not stated that Jesus Christ is God, in response to you claiming I have rejected his deity? However, as opposed to you, I understand why he is God in relation to God, in accordance to scripture. I am willing to debate you, just lead the way where, if not specifically here.
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 11:31:11
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:59:31
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 08:38:48
cjavaria
Do you believe in the following?
We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
We look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)
I believe the scriptures quoted herein, but not the Nicene Creed itself, which you have quoted. To equate the Nicene Creed as scripture would be like grabbing a Joyce Meyer book and saying, this is scripture. I will also point out that the original creed, which you have modified to suit your own fancy, did you not read as you quoted it, but as so,
"...we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church...."
This is clearly a catholic document, not a document written by any of the apostles. And do not think to even say that "catholic" is referring to the universal church, because if it were, then there would be no need to reference a second church. This is without a doubt a catholic document that errs in a very subtle way.
In the rules of this forum its necessary to believe the above which is entirely scriptural. Catholic does means universal BTW.
The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal"[1][2]) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole".[3][4] The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.
If you believe the above creed, then you believe in the trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
If you can't believe what is said then you need to leave this forum.
You just affirmed the very thing I stated beforehand, that "catholic" does not just mean "universal scope", "the whole", "universal", but it also references the very church that began to rise around that time frame, in its infancy. This much is obvious, because of the distinction of two churches, one that is "universal", and one that was founded by the apostles, hence "apostolic". If indeed a reference was being made of one universal church, then a reference to a second church would not be necessary. It was this "universal" church, and its doctrines, that became the catholic church that we know today. And it was at the council of Nicaea, that the doctrine of the trinity became promulgated. This was not the original doctrine of the apostles, hence the scriptures that contradict it. This is a catholic doctrine, which most of the protestant churches have also adopted, among many other catholic doctrines. I'm sorry people, but you have been deceived, and most of you are sheared shut into this doctrine.
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 14:10:23
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 11:31:11
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:59:31
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 08:38:48
cjavaria
Do you believe in the following?
We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
We look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)
I believe the scriptures quoted herein, but not the Nicene Creed itself, which you have quoted. To equate the Nicene Creed as scripture would be like grabbing a Joyce Meyer book and saying, this is scripture. I will also point out that the original creed, which you have modified to suit your own fancy, did you not read as you quoted it, but as so,
"...we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church...."
This is clearly a catholic document, not a document written by any of the apostles. And do not think to even say that "catholic" is referring to the universal church, because if it were, then there would be no need to reference a second church. This is without a doubt a catholic document that errs in a very subtle way.
In the rules of this forum its necessary to believe the above which is entirely scriptural. Catholic does means universal BTW.
The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal"[1][2]) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole".[3][4] The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.
If you believe the above creed, then you believe in the trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
If you can't believe what is said then you need to leave this forum.
You just affirmed the very thing I stated beforehand, that "catholic" does not just mean "universal scope", "the whole", "universal", but it also references the very church that began to rise around that time frame, in its infancy. This much is obvious, because of the distinction of two churches, one that is "universal", and one that was founded by the apostles, hence "apostolic". If indeed a reference was being made of one universal church, then a reference to a second church would not be necessary. It was this "universal" church, and its doctrines, that became the catholic church that we know today. And it was at the council of Nicaea, that the doctrine of the trinity became promulgated. This was not the original doctrine of the apostles, hence the scriptures that contradict it. This is a catholic doctrine, which most of the protestant churches have also adopted, among many other catholic doctrines. I'm sorry people, but you have been deceived, and most of you are sheared shut into this doctrine.
Do you believe the following
We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 14:21:13
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 14:10:23
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 11:31:11
: cgaviria Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:59:31
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 08:38:48
cjavaria
Do you believe in the following?
We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
We look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)
I believe the scriptures quoted herein, but not the Nicene Creed itself, which you have quoted. To equate the Nicene Creed as scripture would be like grabbing a Joyce Meyer book and saying, this is scripture. I will also point out that the original creed, which you have modified to suit your own fancy, did you not read as you quoted it, but as so,
"...we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church...."
This is clearly a catholic document, not a document written by any of the apostles. And do not think to even say that "catholic" is referring to the universal church, because if it were, then there would be no need to reference a second church. This is without a doubt a catholic document that errs in a very subtle way.
In the rules of this forum its necessary to believe the above which is entirely scriptural. Catholic does means universal BTW.
The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal"[1][2]) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole".[3][4] The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.
If you believe the above creed, then you believe in the trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
If you can't believe what is said then you need to leave this forum.
You just affirmed the very thing I stated beforehand, that "catholic" does not just mean "universal scope", "the whole", "universal", but it also references the very church that began to rise around that time frame, in its infancy. This much is obvious, because of the distinction of two churches, one that is "universal", and one that was founded by the apostles, hence "apostolic". If indeed a reference was being made of one universal church, then a reference to a second church would not be necessary. It was this "universal" church, and its doctrines, that became the catholic church that we know today. And it was at the council of Nicaea, that the doctrine of the trinity became promulgated. This was not the original doctrine of the apostles, hence the scriptures that contradict it. This is a catholic doctrine, which most of the protestant churches have also adopted, among many other catholic doctrines. I'm sorry people, but you have been deceived, and most of you are sheared shut into this doctrine.
Do you believe the following
We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
I believe the scripture references quoted therein, but not the Nicene Creed itself. I've given some reasons why in this study.
So then you believe in the trinity.
Please read the rules 6.3
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 16:44:30So then you believe in the trinity. Please read the rules 6.3
I do not believe in this:
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
And neither did Luke based upon Luke chapter one. Jesus was conceived in TIME by the power of the Highest. Eternal generation must by definition (if a definition could be given to that phrase~
eteranl generation...... one cannot be eternal and ALSO have a generation started!) said that Jesus in his DIVINE NATURE has a beginning! That's is a pure heresy of the worst kind. Believe by JW! The Nicene Creed is JUST THAT a creed wrote by man, it is NOT the infallible word of God.
: RB Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 05:12:28
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 16:44:30So then you believe in the trinity. Please read the rules 6.3
I do not believe in this:Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
And neither did Luke based upon Luke chapter one. Jesus was conceived in TIME by the power of the Highest. Eternal generation must by definition (if a definition could be given to that phrase~eteranl generation...... one cannot be eternal and ALSO have a generation started!)said that Jesus in his DIVINE NATURE has a beginning! That's is a pure heresy of the worst kind. Believe by JW! The Nicene creed is JUST THAT a creed wrote by man, it is NOT the infallible word of God.
John 1
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God Himself. 2 He was [continually existing] in the beginning [co-eternally] with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being. 4 In Him was life [and the power to bestow life], and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines on in the [c]darkness, and the darkness did not understand it or overpower it or appropriate it or absorb it [and is unreceptive to it].
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 16:44:30
So then you believe in the trinity.
Please read the rules 6.3
The Nicene Creed can be a reasonable guide yet even the Nicene Creed can be fallible. John 1:2 does not say Jesus was begotten of God before all ages; rather it says Jesus was in the beginning with God. God the Son in the beginning was not begotten. Jesus the Son in human form was begotten of God. Begotten implies a starting point, an origination.
: chosenone Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 06:21:44John 1The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. 2 He was [continually existing] in the beginning [co-eternally] with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being. 4 In Him was life [and the power to bestow life], and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines on in the [c]darkness, and the darkness did not understand it or overpower it or appropriate it or absorb it [and is unreceptive to it].
You have copied and pasted an error. Whoever said these words are just following someone's error that they themselves have followed,
like you are now following.In the beginning was GOD...period. The Word, in the beginning, was NOT Jesus. God was NOT Jesus, but Jesus WAS God in his DIVINE nature. There were NOT two Gods in the beginning, but ONE. The Word in the beginning which was God was made flesh in the person of God's only begotten Son. The Word in the beginning
joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and lived in this world per~
1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
God and Jesus are ONE in their Divine nature, and in THAT nature Jesus created the worlds AS GOD that was in the beginning, or from eternity with no beginning and shall have no end. Jesus AS the Son of God had a beginning around two thousand years ago, up until THAT TIME God did NOT have a Son. This can be proven by many infallible proofs. Do you need them? Question for you to answer, and it is easy~
Who was conceived in Mary's womb? Emmanuel or Jesus, the Son of God? Certainly not Emmanuel, but Jesus, Emmanuel's Son! We are NOT RCC who believe that Mary gave birth to God! Jesus was indeed a complex person, BOTH man, and FULLY man, and God, fully God in his divine nature. It is a great mystery, yet we MUST speak and teach as the scriptures teach us, NOT what creeds teach, especially creeds done by RCC/EOC.
If you believe in the eternal generation doctrine then please explain that to me, for the term is self-contradictory. It about like me saying that I'm a tall short man or, I'm a fat skinny man. One cannot use those terms in the same sentence and make any sense with what you are saying. But worst than that, eternal generation implies that Jesus had a beginning
in his divine nature...pray tell me, what does the word
generation mean to you? I'll help you out...one of its meaning is:
the production of something. Later...
: RB Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 07:41:56
: chosenone Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 06:21:44John 1The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. 2 He was [continually existing] in the beginning [co-eternally] with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being. 4 In Him was life [and the power to bestow life], and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines on in the [c]darkness, and the darkness did not understand it or overpower it or appropriate it or absorb it [and is unreceptive to it].
You have copied and pasted an error. Whoever said these words are just following someone's error that they themselves have followed, like you are now following.
In the beginning was GOD...period. The Word, in the beginning, was NOT Jesus. God was NOT Jesus, but Jesus WAS God in his DIVINE nature. There were NOT two Gods in the beginning, but ONE. The Word in the beginning which was God was made flesh in the person of God's only begotten Son. The Word in the beginning joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and lived in this world per~1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
God and Jesus are ONE in their Divine nature, and in THAT nature Jesus created the worlds AS GOD that was in the beginning, or from eternity with no beginning and shall have no end. Jesus AS the Son of God had a beginning around two thousand years ago, up until THAT TIME God did NOT have a Son. This can be proven by many infallible proofs. Do you need them? Question for you to answer, and it is easy~Who was conceived in Mary's womb? Emmanuel or Jesus, the Son of God? Certainly not Emmanuel, but Jesus, Emmanuel's Son! We are NOT RCC who believe that Mary gave birth to God! Jesus was indeed a complex person, BOTH man, and FULLY man, and God, fully God in his divine nature. It is a great mystery, yet we MUST speak and teach as the scriptures teach us, NOT what creeds teach, especially creeds done by RCC/EOC.
If you believe in the eternal generation doctrine then please explain that to me, for the term is self-contradictory. It about like me saying that I'm a tall short man or, I'm a fat skinny man. One cannot use those terms in the same sentence and make any sense with what you are saying. But worst than that, eternal generation implies that Jesus had a beginning in his divine nature...pray tell me, what does the word generation mean to you? I'll help you out...one of its meaning is: the production of something. Later...
There is much confusion in your speech. "Emmanuel's son"? Seriously? The son himself is him who is called Immanuel,
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a
son, and they
will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us"). (Matthew 1:23 [NIV])
But regardless of this one thing I noticed in your response,
Jesus Christ did exist in the beginning, hence,
And now, Father,
glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:5 [NIV])
And just as God is able to transfer the soul of someone dead into a newly resurrected body, so did God transfer the soul of Jesus Christ from his previous form in heaven, into a conceived baby that formed in the womb. Nothing is too difficult for God to do, and the scriptures imply that this is what happened, and you either have belief that this was so, or you do not.
: cgaviria Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 08:43:22
: RB Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 07:41:56
: chosenone Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 06:21:44John 1The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. 2 He was [continually existing] in the beginning [co-eternally] with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being. 4 In Him was life [and the power to bestow life], and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines on in the [c]darkness, and the darkness did not understand it or overpower it or appropriate it or absorb it [and is unreceptive to it].
You have copied and pasted an error. Whoever said these words are just following someone's error that they themselves have followed, like you are now following.
In the beginning was GOD...period. The Word, in the beginning, was NOT Jesus. God was NOT Jesus, but Jesus WAS God in his DIVINE nature. There were NOT two Gods in the beginning, but ONE. The Word in the beginning which was God was made flesh in the person of God's only begotten Son. The Word in the beginning joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and lived in this world per~1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
God and Jesus are ONE in their Divine nature, and in THAT nature Jesus created the worlds AS GOD that was in the beginning, or from eternity with no beginning and shall have no end. Jesus AS the Son of God had a beginning around two thousand years ago, up until THAT TIME God did NOT have a Son. This can be proven by many infallible proofs. Do you need them? Question for you to answer, and it is easy~Who was conceived in Mary's womb? Emmanuel or Jesus, the Son of God? Certainly not Emmanuel, but Jesus, Emmanuel's Son! We are NOT RCC who believe that Mary gave birth to God! Jesus was indeed a complex person, BOTH man, and FULLY man, and God, fully God in his divine nature. It is a great mystery, yet we MUST speak and teach as the scriptures teach us, NOT what creeds teach, especially creeds done by RCC/EOC.
If you believe in the eternal generation doctrine then please explain that to me, for the term is self-contradictory. It about like me saying that I'm a tall short man or, I'm a fat skinny man. One cannot use those terms in the same sentence and make any sense with what you are saying. But worst than that, eternal generation implies that Jesus had a beginning in his divine nature...pray tell me, what does the word generation mean to you? I'll help you out...one of its meaning is: the production of something. Later...
There is much confusion in your speech. Jesus Christ did exist in the beginning, hence,
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:5 [NIV])
And just as God is able to transfer the soul of someone dead into a newly resurrected body, so did God transfer the soul of Jesus Christ from his previous form in heaven, into a conceived baby that formed in the womb. Nothing is too difficult for God to do, and the scriptures imply that this is what happened, and you either have belief that this was so, or you do not.
Your quoting John 17:5 is a direct rebuttal of your position. What do you think
"the glory I had with you before the word began" means except that He did exist in the beginning? Was His name Jesus? No. Was He the Christ, the Savior? Yes ! !
: 4WD Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 08:52:31
: cgaviria Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 08:43:22
: RB Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 07:41:56
: chosenone Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 06:21:44John 1The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. 2 He was [continually existing] in the beginning [co-eternally] with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being. 4 In Him was life [and the power to bestow life], and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines on in the [c]darkness, and the darkness did not understand it or overpower it or appropriate it or absorb it [and is unreceptive to it].
You have copied and pasted an error. Whoever said these words are just following someone's error that they themselves have followed, like you are now following.
In the beginning was GOD...period. The Word, in the beginning, was NOT Jesus. God was NOT Jesus, but Jesus WAS God in his DIVINE nature. There were NOT two Gods in the beginning, but ONE. The Word in the beginning which was God was made flesh in the person of God's only begotten Son. The Word in the beginning joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and lived in this world per~1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
God and Jesus are ONE in their Divine nature, and in THAT nature Jesus created the worlds AS GOD that was in the beginning, or from eternity with no beginning and shall have no end. Jesus AS the Son of God had a beginning around two thousand years ago, up until THAT TIME God did NOT have a Son. This can be proven by many infallible proofs. Do you need them? Question for you to answer, and it is easy~Who was conceived in Mary's womb? Emmanuel or Jesus, the Son of God? Certainly not Emmanuel, but Jesus, Emmanuel's Son! We are NOT RCC who believe that Mary gave birth to God! Jesus was indeed a complex person, BOTH man, and FULLY man, and God, fully God in his divine nature. It is a great mystery, yet we MUST speak and teach as the scriptures teach us, NOT what creeds teach, especially creeds done by RCC/EOC.
If you believe in the eternal generation doctrine then please explain that to me, for the term is self-contradictory. It about like me saying that I'm a tall short man or, I'm a fat skinny man. One cannot use those terms in the same sentence and make any sense with what you are saying. But worst than that, eternal generation implies that Jesus had a beginning in his divine nature...pray tell me, what does the word generation mean to you? I'll help you out...one of its meaning is: the production of something. Later...
There is much confusion in your speech. Jesus Christ did exist in the beginning, hence,
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:5 [NIV])
And just as God is able to transfer the soul of someone dead into a newly resurrected body, so did God transfer the soul of Jesus Christ from his previous form in heaven, into a conceived baby that formed in the womb. Nothing is too difficult for God to do, and the scriptures imply that this is what happened, and you either have belief that this was so, or you do not.
Your quoting John 17:5 is a direct rebuttal of your position. What do you think "the glory I had with you before the word began" means except that He did exist in the beginning? Was His name Jesus? No. Was He the Christ, the Savior? Yes ! !
How is it a rebuttal of what I have been saying? Did you not read the study I wrote or did you just skim through it and made assumptions?
: cgaviria Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 08:59:16
How is it a rebuttal of what I have been saying? Did you not read the study I wrote or did you just skim through it and made assumptions?
Sorry, I misread you.
: RB Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 07:41:56
: chosenone Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 06:21:44John 1The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. 2 He was [continually existing] in the beginning [co-eternally] with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being. 4 In Him was life [and the power to bestow life], and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines on in the [c]darkness, and the darkness did not understand it or overpower it or appropriate it or absorb it [and is unreceptive to it].
You have copied and pasted an error. Whoever said these words are just following someone's error that they themselves have followed, like you are now following.
In the beginning was GOD...period. The Word, in the beginning, was NOT Jesus. God was NOT Jesus, but Jesus WAS God in his DIVINE nature. There were NOT two Gods in the beginning, but ONE. The Word in the beginning which was God was made flesh in the person of God's only begotten Son. The Word in the beginning joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and lived in this world per~1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
God and Jesus are ONE in their Divine nature, and in THAT nature Jesus created the worlds AS GOD that was in the beginning, or from eternity with no beginning and shall have no end. Jesus AS the Son of God had a beginning around two thousand years ago, up until THAT TIME God did NOT have a Son. This can be proven by many infallible proofs. Do you need them? Question for you to answer, and it is easy~Who was conceived in Mary's womb? Emmanuel or Jesus, the Son of God? Certainly not Emmanuel, but Jesus, Emmanuel's Son! We are NOT RCC who believe that Mary gave birth to God! Jesus was indeed a complex person, BOTH man, and FULLY man, and God, fully God in his divine nature. It is a great mystery, yet we MUST speak and teach as the scriptures teach us, NOT what creeds teach, especially creeds done by RCC/EOC.
If you believe in the eternal generation doctrine then please explain that to me, for the term is self-contradictory. It about like me saying that I'm a tall short man or, I'm a fat skinny man. One cannot use those terms in the same sentence and make any sense with what you are saying. But worst than that, eternal generation implies that Jesus had a beginning in his divine nature...pray tell me, what does the word generation mean to you? I'll help you out...one of its meaning is: the production of something. Later...
We will have to agree to disagree on that one. Jesus didnt just come into being 2000 years ago. The world was made through Him.
: chosenone Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 11:54:39We will have to agree to disagree on that one. Jesus didnt just come into being 2000 years ago. The world was made through Him.
It is very pitiful that you would make such statement and at the same time believe you understand the scriptures concerning the Godhead. You cannot even follow a post properly, much less defend what you believe. Two things and I'm sure we are finished since you are not capable of entering a debate with me on this subject, for I have given this doctrine of the Sonship of Jesus Christ many years of studying and I know it well and If I did not believe I could defend my understanding, then I would not be attempting to do so. Did you not hear me in reply
# 35? where I clearly said these words:
God and Jesus are ONE in their Divine nature and in THAT nature Jesus created the worlds AS GOD that was in the beginning, or from eternity with no beginning and shall have no end.
Your eyes and ears have not been open to the truth on this subject, you need to consider much more, then speak, for you cannot even hear me on simple statements such as this one.
Jesus didnt just come into being 2000 years ago
Then you prove to me with scriptures WHEN HE DID! The burden of proof is on you. I believe the record that God has given to us from
Luke 1:26-38, other than this record we have NO RECORD as to when Jesus was conceived and when God begot a Son. The problem with you and others is this: You cannot reconcile the truth that Jesus is God, yet also the Son of God in one complex nature. Jesus was NOT in the beginning AS the Son of God, but as the EVERLASTING FATHER of all things! Selah! I love to debate this subject with anyone you can bring to this forum. Would you like for me to give several points as to why your position of the eternal sonship cannot be scriptural?
cgaviria said: There is much confusion in your speech. "Emmanuel's son"? Seriously? The son himself is him who is called Immanuel,
The confusion is with your understanding. Jesus is Emmanuel
in his divine nature NOT in his human nature! Jesus is God, but God WAS NOT Jesus!
But regardless of this one thing I noticed in your response, Jesus Christ did exist in the beginning, hence,
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:5 [NIV])
Again, you are NOT dividing the scriptures properly. Jesus in his divine nature is ONE with God, thereby equal with him. Yet in his human nature, God is greater than him. Really, not too deep, just carefully dividing the scriptures.
And just as God is able to transfer the soul of someone dead into a newly resurrected body, so did God transfer the soul of Jesus Christ from his previous form in heaven, into a conceived baby that formed in the womb. Nothing is too difficult for God to do, and the scriptures imply that this is what happened, and you either have belief that this was so, or you do not.
You are speaking something that was conceived in your vain heart, not what the scriptures teach. Jesus in his divine nature was the I AM THAT I AM! Period. He did not have any form, but was the eternal God that is a Spirit, eternal both ways. Later.....
"And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed". (john 17:5)
If Jesus had said "God" or "Lord God of Israel" it would make a difference. But Jesus says "And now, FATHER, glorify me
in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed".
The fact that Jesus uses the word "Father" infers a father/son relationship before the world began. I know you don't agree Red, and that's
OK. I do believe that there has been a FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT for all of eternity. And WE are patterned after Him, and made in
HIS image.
: fish153 Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 17:31:35The fact that Jesus uses the word "Father" infers a father/son relationship before the world began. I know you don't agree Red, and that'sOK. I do believe that there has been a FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT for all of eternity.
"
From all eternity we were known of God according to his eternal purposes, yet that within itself does not make us eternal. Jesus called God his Father, by the fact that he was conceived by God in the womb of Mary. It means nothing more than that. To mean something more than that you MUST have scriptures to support what you believe, or it means nothing more than your personal belief, which is without failure false.
I know you don't agree Red, and that'sOK.
Brother, it's not what I believe, but what does God's word teach us. The
Incarnate Sonship is the
ONLY position that
protects the deity of Jesus Christ~every other positions ends up denying it without failure.
I agree with that Red is saying. I think Moses made it clear in his prophecy of the death, resurrection , & accession;
"39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever."
I believe Jesus is referencing this prophecy in John 10.
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
Jesus is God. They are one & the same.
or John 14
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
I believe Paul is in agreement when he wrote:
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"
Which is an explanation of:
"3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;"
Which is in complete agreement with Peter:
"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:"
Which Paul confirms in "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"
The Bible confirms Jesus godhood in so many ways throughout the Bible as well as there is only one God.
But as Red points out & Paul defines as "the man Jesus Christ" has a beginning. His birth as a man, making him the only begotten Son of God.
Jesus' sonship is not eternal,
But the purpose of his sonship is.
Red----
I do believe there are scriptures to support the eternal sonship of Christ. I don't want to post a novel---here is a link that explains what I believe to be true:
https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html (https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html)
I believe the Bible does teach this----and it is fine to disagree. And I don't believe this position denies the Deity of Christ by any means.
: RB Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 18:04:12
: fish153 Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 17:31:35The fact that Jesus uses the word "Father" infers a father/son relationship before the world began. I know you don't agree Red, and that'sOK. I do believe that there has been a FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT for all of eternity.
"
From all eternity we were known of God according to his eternal purposes, yet that within itself does not make us eternal. Jesus called God his Father, by the fact that he was conceived by God in the womb of Mary. It means nothing more than that. To mean something more than that you MUST have scriptures to support what you believe, or it means nothing more than your personal belief, which is without failure false. I know you don't agree Red, and that'sOK.
Brother, it's not what I believe, but what does God's word teach us. The Incarnate Sonship is the ONLY position that protects the deity of Jesus Christ~every other positions ends up denying it without failure.
Hi Red,
I am a bit lost, but I want to understand your position correctly without getting lost in technicalities.
This is what I understand you are saying:
PRIOR to the incarnation, the Trinity existed as one God yet three individual persons.
Now we don't know exactly how the individual persons were named, but for ease of the discussion lets say they were:
1. God the God
2. God the other God
3. God the Holy Spirit
AFTER the incarnation, when "God the other God" took on human form, He was identified as "God the Son".
And the first entity that was called "God the God" now is identified as "God the Father".
So now we have
1. God the Father
2. God the Son
3. God the Holy Spirit
My question is, if we push the issue on what exactly "God the other God" was called prior to the incarnation, are we not simply stumbling over a technicality? If the sacrifice of Jesus was determined from before creation, would it not be logically to assume that it was already decided in eternity past who would be the person in the Trinity who would take this task upon Him?
: TonkaTim Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 18:35:50Jesus' sonship is not eternal, But the purpose of his sonship is.
Brother well said and this is correct. I must answer my other two good brother, and good they are, which is why I'm careful not to offend a brother who has not considered this doctrine carefully, or even if he has and still does not see it, then my job is to be careful NOT to offend, lest my knowledge causes another brother to stumble, which would be a sin. As much as I love and respect Calvin he was wrong on this doctrine, which made him not as merciful to Michael Servetus that maybe he could have been.....I DO NOT know that since I was NOT there and all we have is history which is not absolute truth but is alway bias to a certain degree.
The two men were the most exact opposites in spirit, doctrine, and aim. One was a reformer, a champion of orthodoxy, and one who sought to build up the church of Christ. The other was considered by Catholic and Protestant alike an archheretic who sought to destroy key doctrines on which the church took its stand. At twenty-seven the first had written one of the most influential systems of theology the Christian faith had ever seen. When he was barely twenty the other wrote a work to denounce a fundamental doctrine of Christianity. Both were brilliant and leaned men born in 1509. One was burned at the stake for heresy in the town where the other was pastor. The two men? John Calvin and Michael Servetus.
Michael Servetus was born in Spain in 1509. He had a brilliant mind, was trained by the Dominicans, and went to the University of Saragossa. There he began studying the Bible, whose authority he accepted; but his interpretations brought him into conflict with the orthodox church. In 1531 Servetus published a work called the Errors of the Trinity, in which he said those who believed in the Trinity were really Tritheists (believers in three gods) or atheists. He said the gods of the Trinitarians were a 3-headed monster and a deception of the devil. Both Protestants and Catholics found the work blasphemous, and the emperor banned it.
Servetus proceded to France where he took the name Michel de Villeneuve. He studied mathematics, geography, astrology, and medicine. Gaining fame as a physician, he came close to discovering the pulmonary circulation of the blood, and published a frequently studied book on the use of syrups in medicine. In spite of his success, Michael made enemies through his insolent and contentious tone.
In 1540 Michael opened a correspondence with John Calvin of Geneva, asking the reformer what it meant for Jesus to be the Son of God and how a man was to be born again. He criticized Calvin's replies and stated that those who believed in the Trinity believed in the spirit of the dragon, the priests and the false prophets who make war on the lamb.
In 1553 Michael anonymously published The Restitution of Christianity which he saw as an attempt to restore Christianity to its primitive purity. In that work he boldly--or rashly--continued to deny the Trinity despite the danger it brought him. Denying the Trinity and the incarnation of Christ were still capital offenses as they had been throughout the middle ages.
Michael said Jesus was the Son of the eternal God but not the eternal Son of God. Contrary to the reformers, he also taught that both faith and works were necessary for salvation. He sent Calvin a portion of the work. MS had his errors along with truth. I DO NOT know all of his beliefs on the Trinity but seems he had errors with truth, while Calvin stayed with RCC on this doctrine.
Roman Catholic authorities in Vienne discovered the name of the Restitution's author because Calvin collaborated in denouncing him to the Inquisition, and they arrested Michael for heresy. He escaped, however, and fled toward Naples by way of Calvin's Geneva. Vienne's authorities burned him in effigy. He entered a church where Calvin was preaching, was recognized, and arrested on charges of blasphemy and heresy, although he was not a citizen and was just passing through town. Was it legal for them to arrest him? He did go where Calvin was, so, he wanted to confront Calvin on this doctrine of the trinity.
Nonetheless, Michael was tried for heresy, this time by a Protestant city council. He continued in an attitude of superior knowledge and called John Calvin "Simon Magus" an "impostor," and more. Servetus shocked the Genevans with his pantheistic or gnostic claim that everything emanated from God, even the devil. Like the Anabaptists, he declared infant baptism a great error. Geneva unfairly refused him legal council although he was a stranger to its law system, saying he could lie well enough without a lawyer to assist him.
The Geneva Council voted to condemn Servetus for heresy and called for his execution. The Swiss churches of Berne, Zurich, Basle, and Schaffhausen encouraged this move. Although Calvin insisted with the rest that Servetus must die, he urged that in mercy Servetus be executed by the sword, not by burning, but the Council rejected the suggestion. It was quarreling with Calvin at that time over the city government. Calvin and reformer William Farel spent hours with Servetus trying to turn him back from his lapses from commonly accepted Christian doctrine, but Servetus stood fast to his principles.
On this day, October 27, 1553, Geneva burned Michael Servetus at the stake for blasphemy and heresy. In the flames, Michael called repeatedly
on Jesus, the Son of God for mercy. This is history's view, take it with a grain of salt.
Personally, I believe it is a sad botch on Christianity/flesh where it proves that our faith is mixed with errors and sins.
Red, that is a very interesting historical read.
I do agree with your last point "it is a sad botch on Christianity/flesh where it proves that our faith is mixed with errors and sins"
But to make a point about eternal purpose, this is the English text to the Nicene Creed.
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16649263_1658653270815134_2380506797628448184_n.jpg?oh=70208fbd4079b29bc11d8777d67644b4&oe=5936824D)
I have zero problems with this creed. Not even the last section. God is eternal & always is. The man Jesus Christ is God eternal. Who is also as the Apostle John explains is "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" which to me illustrates Christ in his eternal purpose. Was Jesus literally slain from the foundation of the world? We all know that answer is no. But in God's eternal purpose for the salvation of His children, he was. Which I believe should also add light & understanding in Paul's description "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" Was the man Jesus Christ literally born a creature before any other? No, he was born of woman around 2020 years ago. But in God's eternal purpose for the salvation of His children, he was. At no time did the purpose of Christ not exist.
I believe Jesus makes this known in His conversation with Martha;
" 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world." John 11
Pay close attention to the bolded - "though he were dead" in the past, "whosoever liveth" in the present, "should come into the world." expectation of the eternal purpose.
The promise of Christ was given to man from the beginning. It is first revealed to man in God's promise to Eve. All who believe in the Christ from the beginning are in Christ & bound for glory.
: fish153 Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 19:02:08Red----
I do believe there are scriptures to support the eternal sonship of Christ. I don't want to post a novel---here is a link that explains what I believe to be true:
https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html (https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html)
I believe the Bible does teach this----and it is fine to disagree. And I don't believe this position denies the Deity of Christ by any means.
Brother, I know your beliefs well because I was taught the eternal Sonship when I first came to Christ and I ONCE held to that very doctrine~ but was converted over after about ten years when I was introduced to it and carefully pondered both views and the danger each. I DID NOT convert quickly but over a period of about 18 months of studying the subject. Give me some time later today or tomorrow to ponder each with you and compare the problems and danger of the doctrine of eternal sonship doctrine. RB
: RB Fri Feb 10, 2017 - 07:13:21
: fish153 Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 19:02:08Red----
I do believe there are scriptures to support the eternal sonship of Christ. I don't want to post a novel---here is a link that explains what I believe to be true:
https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html (https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html)
I believe the Bible does teach this----and it is fine to disagree. And I don't believe this position denies the Deity of Christ by any means.
Brother, I know your beliefs well because I was taught the eternal Sonship when I first came to Christ and I ONCE held to that very doctrine~ but was converted over after about ten years when I was introduced to it and carefully pondered both views and the danger each. I DID NOT convert quickly but over a period of about 18 months of studying the subject. Give me some time later today or tomorrow to ponder each with you and compare the problems and danger of the doctrine of eternal sonship doctrine. RB
What exactly is the danger of the doctrine of eternal sonship?
: fish153 Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 19:02:08
Red----
I do believe there are scriptures to support the eternal sonship of Christ. I don't want to post a novel---here is a link that explains what I believe to be true:
https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html (https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html)
I believe the Bible does teach this----and it is fine to disagree. And I don't believe this position denies the Deity of Christ by any means.
It implies that the pre-incarnate Lord and Savior was begotten of God and that inherently indicates against the deity of Jesus. The article attempts to deny that but it does so illogically. Begotten implies a source, a beginning and an order of existence. That is incompatible with eternally existent.
: fish153 Thu Feb 09, 2017 - 17:31:35
"And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed". (john 17:5)
If Jesus had said "God" or "Lord God of Israel" it would make a difference. But Jesus says "And now, FATHER, glorify me
in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed".
The fact that Jesus uses the word "Father" infers a father/son relationship before the world began. I know you don't agree Red, and that's
OK. I do believe that there has been a FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT for all of eternity. And WE are patterned after Him, and made in
HIS image.
Amen, Fish! And, I also appreciate your respectful responses in the face of disagreeing.
: AVZ Fri Feb 10, 2017 - 07:31:30What exactly is the danger of the doctrine of eternal sonship?
It plays into the hands of those who rejects the deity of Jesus Christ~you end up with a begotten god, LESS than the Godhead and it destroys the eternality of Jesus Christ being the I AM THAT I AM....the true Jehovah God. Give me time today or tomorrow to prove my point. Understanding this truth is NOT essential to one's free gift of eternal life, AS LONG as one does not purposely reject the deity of Jesus Christ and preach and teach against it. A Christian's life is one of growing in the knowledge of the truth, just like children grown in knowledge of earthly truths. There are practical benefits to gain for sure of learning truths, but no more than that, and no less.
: 4WD Fri Feb 10, 2017 - 07:36:31It implies that the pre-incarnate Lord and Savior was begotten of God and that inherently indicates against the deity of Jesus. The article attempts to deny that but it does so illogically. Begotten implies a source, a beginning and an order of existence. That is incompatible with eternally existent.
Absoluetly! and well said.
Question #1~"Can true Divinity be derived or propagated?" The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.
The answer to that questions is NO! So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ? A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:311-35. I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.
Question #2 "Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1"? Surely not.
And ask~"How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? We shall prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.
Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We Know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.
If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used, or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.
The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least be able and willing to tell their own meaning in use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough? I know so
Question #3 "What part of Jesus Christ was derived from God?"
Surely not his Divine Nature! if One God can be derived, why not many? Many Mighty Gods and Everlasting Fathers, (there not many, but ONE, revealed to us as three, according to their work in the affairs of creation, and the salvation of the elect seed of Jesus Christ) many first Causes, and last End of all things! The Eternal Spirit of God is not capable of diminution or divisibility, that is an impossibility. This would be going against what his word teaches us, that we should have no other gods before Him.
Pagans believed in a power of propagation of their gods, we as Bible Christians do not. The bible demands belief in nothing of this kind, relative to our heavenly Father.
Question #4~ "Is it so, that there are many representations in the scriptures that teach that the Godhead in some mysterious sense are three, yet essentially ONE?"
It is very much so. "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen" 2 Corinthians 13:14
The holy scriptures teaches us that in some mysterious scriptural sense, the Godhead are three, yet we know that there are titles, found in the scriptures of the name of God, that can be applied to each one of them individually, interchangeable, and equally. This is very important to remember. In innumerable scriptures, God, and Christ, are spoken of as two persons, yet are presented in an essential unity as one; so that each may affirm, that there is no other God beside Himself. This is important as well to remember.
There are not two, or three distinct Gods~together, they are ONE God!
The Divine nature of Christ, does all that God does equally~he is not absent; nor is he another God, but and the same God! And Yet, there is a personal and real distinction between God the Eternal Spirit, and Jesus his Son. The deity of Jesus Christ is not and cannot be excluded from any transactions done by God before the creation of the world, and during the OT times before the birth of Jesus, and throughout eternity. They are essential ONE and CANNOT be separated into two or three.
When we read that the Son created the worlds, then we understand that that is speaking of his Divine Nature ONLY, of being the I am THAT I AM. This is not really too deep, just following God's own witness to us concerning these things and giving the scriptures their proper senses.
When reading such scriptures as 1 Peter 1:11; 1 Corinthians 10:4-5; Romans 8:9; and 1 Peter 3:18-19; and others, then we understand that Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of Man (which is used twice as many times as the Son of God in the bible) was a complex person, both God and man, and the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ is none other than the One and True God that is from everlasting to everlasting, and these two in the word of God are essentially and scripturally by God's own testimony ONE.
Question #5~"Can the Most High thus address a derived, dependent being, as God, without establishing idolatry?"
Absolutely not! Yet the Most High God did address his Son as God.
Hebrews 1:8 Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne O God, is forever and ever."
So, Jesus is the Son, yet is God that shall reign forever and ever. This will come to pass the scriptures that is written: "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God>" Matthew 5:8 and many more~Rev. 21:3,22,23; Rev. 22:3,4,9,16,19-20.
Question #6~ "Did Paul, or any other apostles, or prophets, ever lead us to believe that Jesus and God, were not essentially one." Never! But, what they teach us plainly was that Jesus was indeed God blessed for ever. Paul said these words: Whose are the fathers, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever."
Again, Paul said: concerning Christ~"........ the great God and Saviour." Titus 2:13 Also, See Peter~2 Peter 1:1; 1 Peter 1:2 And again, 1 John 5:20; Isaiah 9:6~one of the most powerful scriptures. Jeremiah 23:6, just to mention a few.
Question #7~"Can a derived and dependent person be Almighty?"
Most certainly not! Yet, Jesus was the mighty God promised by the prophets as we read from Isaiah 9:6. Jesus called himself the Almighty, listen to his own words: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:1:8
If Jesus was the beginning of all things, and he was, then he was not the eternal Son, because, the word son, by definition proves a beginning (more on this later)~if he is Almighty, and he is, then no one is greater than he is, none. He alone will be worship in that world to come, for he will reign as King for ever more, world without end.
Question #8~From the great work, which was assigned to Jesus Christ, light is cast upon this important subject at hand. So we ask the conscience of every person taught in the sentiments of the gospel~Was not an infinite atonement necessary and demanded, according to the word of God, to take away our sins?" Again, "was not the righteousness of a perfect man, whose righteousness was equal to God, necessary to avail for sinful and lost man; in order to redeem him from sin and condemnation and to give the redeem person an entitlement to eternal life? Only Jesus Christ, who was both the Son of God, and as well, the Son of Man, could have been that perfect atonement for our sins. It was by one man that sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and death passed upon all men, because all sinned in their father Adam. Jesus Christ was that perfect man, for he was the Son of God, begotten by him in the womb of a virgin named Mary.
We have the record of his birth recorded for us in the holy scriptures. The only record /witness, that we have of God's Son coming into being the Son of God, there is not another, but the one recorded in Luke 1. Any other witness is a lie and only vain speculations of man not receiving the witness of the Spirit of God, but are guilty of following what others teach concerning the Sonship of God's holy child.
Question #9~"Did Jesus Christ have a beginning?~Or, in order for us to help those who reading this to better follow God's word/witness to us, concerning His Son, we could ask also ask this question, with the one at the beginning of this sentence: Did Jesus have a beginning?"
The scriptures very carefully divides and protect the identity of Jesus Christ; and so should we. The questions above demand for us to stay within the bounds of the scriptures, as we should always do, to find our answers; for the answers to our questions are: yes and no.
Most should know that the name of Christ, speaks to his deity, and proves that he was indeed the Son of the Living God; were as, Jesus, is his earthly name, and speaks and proves his humanity. There was, and can be, only one Jesus Christ; for God had only one begotten Son, begotten by the power of the Highest in a womb of a virgin woman of Adam's race, named Mary.
Jesus Christ had no beginning! The scriptures are very plain concerning this truth.
1 John 1:1
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life."
This scripture is lost among people's favorites, yet this scripture is powerful to the regenerate mind and lover of the word of God.
The God that created all things that has always been from the beginning, or from eternity, made himself visible, to human beings in the person of His Son, whom he had begotten, by his Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Infinite, Glorious Spirit, purpose and planned every perfect detail of his holy event~"God was manifested in the flesh"~ seen of angels, (for the first time!) and preached unto sinners, and allowed men like John to lay his head on his chest, and allowed sinners to even spit in his face! I cannot even begin to express, nor do I have the ability, to express in words, how great our God is, and the length he went to redeem his chosen race!
John said it so plain: "that which was from the beginning." There is no room for debate; Jesus Christ was the Word of Life, that had no beginning! The eternal Sonship doctrine by definition goes against this scriptures before us. By definition, we shall prove later, that eternal and son cannot be used together, for son, by definition, means a beginning, or words cease to have any meaning, and anyone can use words to teach anything!
1 John 2:13
"I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning...."
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD."
In 1 John 1:1~John called Jesus Christ, the Word of life. Paul said by him all things consist, for he created all things, for he alone is the Word of Life. Paul said again, "Who is the image of the invisible God-" Colossians 1:15
Jesus Christ is not the second person of the Trinity~HE IS GOD! period! He was not conceived in the beginning~he was God FROM THE BEGINNING that created all things!
John 1:13
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
God was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. The Word was not begotten by the power of the Highest, Jesus, the Son of God was begotten. The Word that was from the beginning, joined himself to the tabernacle (fleshly body of Jesus) and lived among men. The Eternal Spirit of God never cease to be who he is~A SPIRIT that inhabiteth eternity, who rules over all of his creation! Read Isaiah 57:15 and John 4:24!!
Jesus had a beginning, and it is clearly revealed to us in the NT from Luke 1. We know his mother and who his suppose father~Joseph. We know where he lived and where he died. Jesus was fully man and fully God, and two natures never interfere with his work of redemption but worked in perfect harmony to accomplish God's eternal purpose which he purposed in himself. Eph. 1:9
Read through he NT, especially John 's writings, and notice Jesus Christ and God separately, interchangeably according to what part of God's redemption work he was speaking on. Of course, this was the case with all NT writers.
Later.....
I would like to consider a few reasons why I know that the eternal Sonship position is a serious error.
Reason #1~The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self-contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this an understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.
Please consider carefully: This a is a very important point to consider. Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antecedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have a meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.
Reason #2~If Jesus Christ is as many teach the eternal Son of God, or if he was eternally begotten/generated, according to his Divine nature, then he
IS NOT the Eternal God that inhabiteth eternity.
Please consider carefully: The reason why is this: "son" implies a father; and father in reference to a son, precedency in time, if not in nature as well. Father and son imply the ideal of generation~generation implies a time, in which it was effected, and time also antecedent to such generation.
We know that Jesus Christ was both God that inhabiteth eternity and the Son of God that had a beginning when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost!
The eternal Sonship position is against the witness of God himself concerning his Son.
Please consider carefully: The incarnate Sonship protects the Deity of the Son of God and confesses that he is both the I am that I am, and the Son of God and the Son of man.
Jesus became the Son of God the same time he became the Son of man. We have the word of God to support that witness that we just gave. Yet, man's witness goes against God's testimony concerning his Son. As for me and my house, we will believe God own testimony over man.
Reason #3~If Christ is the Son of God as to his Divine Nature, then the Father is of "necessity prior to Christ"~and consequently superior to him!
As I said early on, or at least I believe I did, false doctrine blinds peoples minds and robs them of the ability to think and reason within the holy scriptures, using God's word alone for their guide into all truth. Our Lord once asked a question:
"What think ye of Christ? whose Son is he? They said unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, how then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool? if David call him Lord, how then is he his son? Matthew 22:42-45
False religion blinds men's eyes and hearts, and they know it not, nor can they know it, because they do not have faith to totally trust the scriptures alone for every answer that may ever be presented to them, specially concerning Jesus Christ, who Son is he, and when did he become God's Son? These are very important questions, (and there are others) that needs to be answer according to the word of God, not by the Nicene Creed, nor by any so-called church fathers. What does the scriptures say, should be all that we are concerned with, do you not agree?
The scriptures were given to give us a witness from heaven concerning TRUTH, and we should search them alone and reason within them alone to come to the knowledge of the truth; if we do that, then we will see that Jesus was much more than just David's son; he was his Lord and God~yet by God's infinite wisdom, He ever remained the LORD Jehovah The Eternal Spirit that lives in eternity, who created all things, and rules with the greatest of ease over his creation~for the LORD said, unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, till I MAKE thine enemies thy footstool~and he will have no problem doing such that.. Every believer expect to be at his right hand in that day when these things shall come to pass, just as he has promised to his Son.
Please consider carefully: Again, if the Divine Nature of Jesus was begotten by the Father, then it must be in time, and if so, then there was a time in which his Divine Nature did not exist, and a period when it begun to exist. This destroy the eternality of our blessed Lord Jesus Christ and robs him at once of his eternal Godhead!
Unless we stay within the record which God himself has given to us to believe, then, we will end up being guilty of robbing Christ of his deity, of being the Everlasting Father of All things~according to Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is not the everlasting Son,
but the everlasting Father of all things. A big difference, would you not say? Selah.
The holy scriptures of truth, wisely and carefully, protect the Deity of Jesus Christ, and so must we.
Now, let us consider my last point and then I will close with a few remarks.
To be continue...God permitting. RB
: RB Fri Feb 10, 2017 - 11:44:16
Reason #1~The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self-contradiction.
For this same reason do I not have a problem with Eternal Sonship.
The Trinity itself is a contradiction. One could easily pick up the contradiction of the existence of the Holy Spirit for example.
If God the Father is a spirit...then how can He have a Spirit? Do spirits have spirits?
If the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit...does that mean that God as the first person in the Trinity and Jesus as the second person, don't have a spirit by themselves?
What I am saying is that I believe any argumentation with regards to the Trinity by logic is futile. We are not able to grasp the concept anyway.
So if there was an Eternal Sonship, then so be it...and if there was not, then so be it.
Red, 4WD---
You are misunderstanding. Please read this creed once again:
"We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, ETERNALLY begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.."
This is not inferring a starting point, beginning, or propogation. It is stating that the Son for all eternity has been the Son of God. He is ETERNALLY begotten. He has ALWAYS been the SON. There was no STARTING point. What you are having a very hard time understanding or contemplating is the concept that there has ALWAYS BEEN A FATHER. SON AND HOLY SPIRIT. How can I explain this better?
God has ALWAYS been in three persons: FATHER SON AND SPIRIT. When God created man He stated He would make us in HIS IMAGE. HIS IMAGE is FATHER SON AND HOLY SPIRIT. How can that image be duplicated in US? The closest would be FATHER, MOTHER, CHILD. And that is because WE NEED TO BE PROPOGATED. But we were created after HIS IMAGE. You are trying to infer that "son" infers propogation because you are using Human understanding to explain God. This cannot be done. You are using human understanding of the word "son" and applying it to God---whereas we need to see that the origin of "SON" is eternal, and has always been.
I will not argue this point further as it really is a waste of energy. We as Christians believe in the Trinity. Whether the Son has forever been the Son we will find out one day in Heaven. I happen to believe that that is the truth----but we will all know for sure one day. ::smile::
: fish153 Fri Feb 10, 2017 - 13:34:38Red, 4WD---You are misunderstanding. Please read this creed once again:
I'm not misunderstanding the creed, I understand it very clearly~and I will address this in morning, the Lord willing. BESIDES and among all else, creeds/confessions are written by man and for man~ the very best (which the Nicene creed is totally RCC/EOC confession) are mixed with errors, and we are called to preach and teach the scriptures not to defend confessions by men.
We as Christians believe in the Trinity.
That is a very prideful statement, and is insinuating that those who believe in the incarnate Sonship are not Christians! Shame on you. But, I'm not offended, trust me, because I KNOW that I see and understand this most blessed truth and I can defend myself against the Jehovah Witnesses and other false teachers much better than the eternal Sonship believers can and my brother,
that's a fact! Why do you not take my points and prove them unscriptural? I know why and so do you inwardly. But God sees our hearts and knows our private thoughts, yea, even before we were ever born, he knew every thought from the beginning to end of every person that would ever live! Later...too many meetings left in this short day, and I'm getting too old to keep up so I
must run.
Red said---
>>>That is a very prideful statement, and is insinuating that those who believe in the incarnate Sonship are not Christians!<<<
Well you misunderstood again I see. I said "WE" as Christians believe in the Trinity, meaning YOU and I, and all other born-again
believers. We ALL believe in the Trinity. The link I put up (if you had a chance to read it) was very careful to point this out----that there are some who do
not hold to the Eternal Sonship doctrine---but it gives us no reason to doubt they are sincere, true believers.
So I was in no way saying that those who do not hold to Eternal Sonship are not Christians---I would never make a statement like that. Again, as I said, I think you mis-
understood what I was saying. I also think you misunderstand the Eternal Sonship doctrine by using human wisdom and understanding to try to explain eternal things.
But as I said, we will all know one day.
God bless you!
: RB Fri Feb 10, 2017 - 14:21:48
: fish153 Fri Feb 10, 2017 - 13:34:38Red, 4WD---You are misunderstanding. Please read this creed once again:
I'm not misunderstanding the creed, I understand it very clearly~and I will address this in morning, the Lord willing. BESIDES and among all else, creeds/confessions are written by man and for man~ the very best (which the Nicene creed is totally RCC/EOC confession) are mixed with errors, and we are called to preach and teach the scriptures not to defend confessions by men.
No I don't think there is a difference in understanding, just a difference in application.
I do not take the Eternal Sonship as something that is physical. It expresses a relationship.
Similarly in scripture there are expressions like "sons of God" and "children of God". None of these I take literal.
So the term Eternal Sonship to me means that the Trinity is a relationship from eternity past in which the tasks of each person in the Trinity was defined. From eternity past one person was the Father, one person was the Son and one person was the Holy Spirit.
These terms identify the spiritual relationship between the three members of the Trinity, and to some extend also describe a hierarchical structure.
Not hierarchy in power, but hierarchy in responsibilities.
Later on in history the Son also took on a physical father-son relationship by becoming human in addition to being God.
However...this Eternal Sonship should not be used as a jumping board to claim all kinds of special properties for Mary.
So if that's you fear, that the Nicene Creed has the potential to become that jumping board, then I agree with you.
But by itself I do not hold Eternal Sonship illogical or impossible.
: fish153 Fri Feb 10, 2017 - 15:08:14Well you misunderstood again I see. I said "WE" as Christians believe in the Trinity, meaning YOU and I, and all other born-again believers. We ALL believe in the Trinity.
Charity demands that we believeth all things and think no evil of others intentions. So you said that your words were not directed at the incarnate Sonship group, then I accept that and apologize to you. Nevertheless, it was not that clear what you meant, and since we disagree on the Eternal Sonship position, I took that to mean that all Sonship believers were the only Christians, which I DO ACCEPT as my brothers and sisters, yet knowing that they are wrong, and I provided strong enough arguments to prove it, which arguments were not disproved.
John F. MacArthur there very close where you live in California once held to the Incarnate Sonship but found it unpopular and ditched it so that he could be accepted among his peers! I'm not about popularity, when it comes to the word of God and its true doctrines. Truth has never been popular and never will be whatever truth one holds to. If the masses accept it, then most likely it is watered down so that they can and will accept it.
I also think you misunderstand the Eternal Sonship doctrine by using human wisdom and understanding to try to explain eternal things.
No, my friend, I used the scriptures and
what have you even provided? Not one scripture, you are welcome to do so, so that I can address you reasoning as to WHY you believe in the eternal Sonship doctrine. Our Lord expect us to use scriptures and sound logic WITHIN scriptural bounds! When he asked his disciple who he was, he was laboring to make them THINK as to WHY they believe when others DID NOT and were very confused as to WHO Jesus was. We all use sound logic every day when studying the scriptures and I could give many examples to prove my point.
Matthew 22:41-46~"While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions."
In two of my post above I've done nothing more than what Christ did here, to prove who he was, if they were able to use sound logic WITHIN the scriptures.
He and the apostles (read Paul's epistles) also used QUESTIONS in debating/teaching with others which are the most effective way of proving a person arguments in any form of debate/teaching or presenting one's case for truth. Read Galatians and debating tactics and see. I learned this many years ago. I learned this from two sources, the scriptures first and foremost and from men who ran for the office of presidency back over hundred years ago from a book or source I once read. And I have found that it works well.
God bless you!
Thank you and I pray the same for you in all sincerity and for all of God's little ones.
2nd John 7 and 9~"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and antichrist. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
Should we call all men, who different with us on our understanding of the Sonship of Jesus Christ, deceivers and antichrist? We are not out to offend men, just to offend, and appear before others, as standing bold upon the scriptures; neither are we out to please men, just to be their friend. We all should strive to please God, first and foremost, and allow our course that God has chosen for us, to run its course.
Most likely we cannot answer this question that I just ask, to please all of the righteous, who truly believe that Jesus has come in the flesh.
If we take verse nine in an absolute sense, without giving scriptures sense, then no one living would have God living within them, no one! The reason why is this: we all have grown in the knowledge of the doctrine of Jesus Christ, or, at least, we should have~(
see 2nd Peter 3:18) We all have grown in certain knowledge about Jesus Christ, that we did not know or even heard when we first started out, and some of us, (myself included) was taught the eternal Sonship position, until I search it for myself.
Proud men are so quick to pass judgment upon any who may teach a doctrine different from what they have been taught, regardless, if they have searched the matter out for themselves or not. Most will not even consider a doctrine, if it is different from what their pastor teaches, regardless what the scriptures teach otherwise. These people have more fear of men than of God, and God cannot be pleased with them.
My understanding of how I should approach anyone who may different with me on the Sonship doctrine will be determined by the teachings of the apostle, and my understanding of their instructions and teachings.
So here is what I believe, and how I should answer the question above. I trust that I base my understanding and convictions from God's word alone, and not from any other source.
1. I reject as heresy those who teach that Jesus Christ in not the One and true God of the holy scriptures as antichrist. All Jehovah Witnesses are heretics and deceivers, thereby are antichrist. I refuse to bid them God's speed. They speak against the testimony of God recorded for us the scriptures. They have their own New World translation to support their lies that gives them confidence in their false professing. They do not believe that Jesus Christ is God's Son, and is Jehovah God in his Divine Nature. They are antichrist and deceivers. They do not believe that Jesus Christ came by water, and BLOOD! The blood, not of Adam's race, but OF GOD! They deny that Jesus Christ was conceived by God himself, apart from any earthly means aided by man. We have God's record of that conception announcement and birth in
Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:30-35; Luke 2:5-21... This is the only record that any child of God should believe.
They believe that Jesus is a begotten god. Look at their New World translation of John 1:1. Every child of God knows that Jesus Christ was Jehovah God, manifest in the flesh according to
1st Timothy 3:16, and other scriptures. They reject God's own testimony concerning his Son. They are void of the Spirit of God.
I will add this. I had a young man who worked in my business, who was of the Jehovah Witnesses faith; and was one of the very best workers that I had, in every way you could think of. So, personally, I have no bones to pick with individuals, only with their false, and antichrist teachings. I told this young man, that I would never bid him God's speed and expect the same from him, and he understood, of course, he would never do that as well. They believe that Jesus was a good man, and a good prophet, but not Jehovah. He no longer works for me, but we are friends, as much as we can be.
2. All true Mormons are likewise deceivers and antichrist, and enemies of the God of heaven. You can Google and learn for yourself concerning this sect that was started by a self-exalted prophet, who was an adulterer and a dreamer of dreams and a liar. They believe that God and Jesus were married! You can read what they believe, but would not waste very much time following these demon posses people.
3. Now closer to home~Do I believe that those who hold to the eternal generation of the Son of God are deceivers and antichrist? NO!
There are many of God's children that believe the record that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is equal to God in every sense of the word, as far as their Divine nature goes, yet believe in the eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ.
Nevertheless, they are in error concerning when Jesus became the Son of God, but that within itself does not make them antichrist, or a deceiver, that are used by the devil to make Christ less than who he is because most of them would make almost the very same confession as Peter did. I believe we should be very careful not to offend one of God's little ones, who may have never considered the issue at hand, or who has, yet are not able to fully understand the controversy. There are godly people on both side of the issue (Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship) and we must be careful not to pass quick judgment, or speak evil of them. But, we should indeed labor to be faithful to Christ alone and to labor to instruct those that oppose themselves. The words of Red are ended~
Job 31:40
Red----
Thank you for your post. As I said, we as Christians believe in the Trinity, and the Deity of Jesus Christ. I just wanted to clarify that I do not believe in Eternal Sonship to please men, or because a Pastor or teacher taught me that doctrine.
As I stated, I believe John 17:5 shows an eternal relationship between Father and Son. I believe Jesus is the incarnated God the Son. I do not believe the Son of God had a beginning, and has always existed as the Son.
We will know clearly one day. No one is unsaved by holding to either doctrine. God bless you my brother.
fish,
What does it mean that pre-incarnate Jesus was the Son of God?
I already explained that. God the Son was incarnated into a human body as John 1:14 explains.
When Mary became pregnant by the Holy Spirit and gave birth to Jesus as a human being, then the Word became flesh and became the Son of God. I do not believe that God is ever referred to as the Father before that. Father is a "name" given to the first person of the Trinity following the human birth of Jesus. Son is the "name" given the second person, Jesus, of the Trinity.
This may be nit picking, but sometimes that is necessary to keep things straight and true. It is along the same lines that Jesus was the son of David, yet He was David's Lord. He was always David's Lord, but He became David's son only upon His birth as a human being.
: fish153 Sat Feb 11, 2017 - 19:55:22I already explained that. God the Son was incarnated into a human body as John 1:14 explains.
Amen, now allow me to ask you this question:
Before Jesus was the Son of God would you also agree that he was the "Everlasting Father" according to Isaiah 9:6 which said: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
(Note:
not the Everlasting Son, but Father!) If so, then you have been converted more perfectly as Apollos of old and as we ALL have over time.
Read that verse again (Isaiah 9:6). It says He SHALL be called the Everlasting Father. It doesn't say He was called that BEFORE He came to earth. He SHALL also be called The Prince of Peace.
So I really don't see anything there Red.
4WD--- I understand what you are saying and respect you for it. I will just say that Abraham and Isaac also lead me to believe that the Son of God has been the Son from eternity. When God says "You have not witheld your son, your Only son from me..." I believe this foreshadows God sacrificing His Son (God the Son) and not witholding Him from us.
But as I said before, we will all find out one day, and it is no discussion that should drive us away from loving one another as brothers in Christ.
: fish153 Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 15:03:19
Read that verse again (Isaiah 9:6). It says He SHALL be called the Everlasting Father. It doesn't say He was called that BEFORE He came to earth. He SHALL also be called The Prince of Peace.
So I really don't see anything there Red.
4WD--- I understand what you are saying and respect you for it. I will just say that Abraham and Isaac also lead me to believe that the Son of God has been the Son from eternity. When God says "You have not witheld your son, your Only son from me..." I believe this foreshadows God sacrificing His Son (God the Son) and not witholding Him from us.
But as I said before, we will all find out one day, and it is no discussion that should drive us away from loving one another as brothers in Christ.
I have read some discussions making the claim that in the Old Testament the tetragrammaton, YHWH, which loosely translates as "Lord" is actually referencing Jesus in His pre-incarnate being. I don't think there is any way to know that for certain, but it does make some sense.
: fish153 Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 15:03:19Read that verse again (Isaiah 9:6). It says He SHALL be called the Everlasting Father. It doesn't say He was called that BEFORE He came to earth. He SHALL also be called The Prince of Peace.
Was Jesus the MIGHTY God
before he came to earth?
So I really don't see anything there Red.
Because you do not see it, does not make it not so. In his divine nature, he was INDEED the Everlasting Father.
He was the Almighty God before He came to earth. I'm just saying that Isaiah 9:6 is not a good verse to use against Eternal Sonship. It is referring to what He WILL BE called after He comes to earth.
Before He came to earth He was God the Son, which He continued to be after the Incarnation.
: fish153 Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 22:29:41
He was the Almighty God before He came to earth. I'm just saying that Isaiah 9:6 is not a good verse to use against Eternal Sonship. It is referring to what He WILL BE called after He comes to earth.
Before He came to earth He was God the Son, which He continued to be after the Incarnation.
But what does "Son" mean before the incarnation? Before the incarnation, there is no meaning that can be attached to the term or concept of "Son". Before the incarnation He was the WORD, He was Lord, He was Savior. But only after he came in human form as a baby born of Mary by the Holy Spirit does the concept of Son even make sense.
: fish153 Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 22:29:41He was the Almighty God before He came to earth. I'm just saying that Isaiah 9:6 is not a good verse to use against Eternal Sonship. It is referring to what He WILL BE called after He comes to earth.
Brother you still are dancing around Isaiah 9:6. Okay, consider this point~even after God was incarnated in human flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, BOTH were the EVERLASTING Father in their divine nature, because that DIVINE nature is ONE......that NEVER changed! EVERLASTING means what to you? Let me ask you in another way~WHO is the everlasting Father? Remember before you answer this question that God IS NEVER refer to as the everlasting Father directly as the Son was! Which
only proves one thing~our God is ONE Lord God in their Divine nature, yet manifested to us
as three according to their work of redemption, etc. But in NO OTHER SENSE are there three, but ONE.
Red, I agree. I think it is summed up in this one verse in 1 Peter 1:
"20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you"
This is such a powerful verse to me on the subject.
"Who verily was foreordained (not begotten) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest (incarnated/begotten) in these last times for you"
Those last two words just wow me, "for you"
To me it just illustrates the incredible indescribable power of God. It is all laid out according to his perfect plan down the the last detail including all that would believe.
: RB Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 07:36:37
: fish153 Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 22:29:41He was the Almighty God before He came to earth. I'm just saying that Isaiah 9:6 is not a good verse to use against Eternal Sonship. It is referring to what He WILL BE called after He comes to earth.
Brother you still are dancing around Isaiah 9:6. Okay, consider this point~even after God was incarnated in human flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, BOTH were the EVERLASTING Father in their divine nature, because that DIVINE nature is ONE......that NEVER changed! EVERLASTING means what to you? Let me ask you in another way~WHO is the everlasting Father? Remember before you answer this question that God IS NEVER refer to as the everlasting Father directly as the Son was! Which only proves one thing~our God is ONE Lord God in their Divine nature, yet manifested to us as three according to their work of redemption, etc. But in NO OTHER SENSE are there three, but ONE.
Red,
You have said a lot about what Jesus was not prior to His incarnation. Now I wonder how you would identify Jesus prior to His incarnation.
You believe there was a Trinity prior to the incarnation, so there always were three different persons: the First Member of the Trinity, the Second Member of the Trinity and The Holy Spirit.
Now if the Second Member was not the Son prior to the incarnation, then the First Member was not the Father.
So how would you suggest prior to the incarnation the First and Second Member should be identified? How should we call them?
God 1, God 2 and the Holy Spirit?
or how about Father 1, Father 2 and the Holy Spirit?
What would be the difference between the 2 Members of the Trinity? And if there is none, then maybe the Trinity did not exist prior to the incarnation?
Red----
I'm not "dancing around" anything. I would like to read your response to AVZ concerning the Trinity. I think he is asking a very good question.
: fish153 Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 14:33:24
Red----
I'm not "dancing around" anything. I would like to read your response to AVZ concerning the Trinity. I think he is asking a very good question.
RB can answer for himself, but I think what the disciples called Jesus, namely, Lord is the same as He is called before becoming a human being. The LXX translates the Hebrew YHWH as
"kurios". And
"kurios" is used to identify Jesus often in the NT. I think that might be all that is needed. The Trinity before the incarnation might suitably be God, Lord and Spirit.
But then John, in his first chapter, calls him the Word in the beginning. So that would work also. John also says that all things were made by Him [the Word] (John 1:3) and in Genesis 2:4 it says the Lord made the heavens and earth. So I think Lord works.
: 4WD Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 05:54:52
: fish153 Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 14:33:24
Red----
I'm not "dancing around" anything. I would like to read your response to AVZ concerning the Trinity. I think he is asking a very good question.
RB can answer for himself, but I think what the disciples called Jesus, namely, Lord is the same as He is called before becoming a human being. The LXX translates the Hebrew YHWH as "kurios". And "kurios" is used to identify Jesus often in the NT. I think that might be all that is needed. The Trinity before the incarnation might suitably be God, Lord and Spirit.
But then John, in his first chapter, calls him the Word in the beginning. So that would work also. John also says that all things were made by Him [the Word] (John 1:3) and in Genesis 2:4 it says the Lord made the heavens and earth. So I think Lord works.
However, Psalm 110: Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
seems to identify both the Father and the Son as "Lord"
: RB Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 07:36:37
: fish153 Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 22:29:41He was the Almighty God before He came to earth. I'm just saying that Isaiah 9:6 is not a good verse to use against Eternal Sonship. It is referring to what He WILL BE called after He comes to earth.
Brother you still are dancing around Isaiah 9:6. Okay, consider this point~even after God was incarnated in human flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, BOTH were the EVERLASTING Father in their divine nature, because that DIVINE nature is ONE......that NEVER changed! EVERLASTING means what to you? Let me ask you in another way~WHO is the everlasting Father? Remember before you answer this question that God IS NEVER refer to as the everlasting Father directly as the Son was! Which only proves one thing~our God is ONE Lord God in their Divine nature, yet manifested to us as three according to their work of redemption, etc. But in NO OTHER SENSE are there three, but ONE.
Hi Red,
I have an additional question.
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
That appears to be technically incorrect.
If there was no Son prior to the incarnation, then there was no Son that could be sent.
: AVZ Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 23:35:32I have an additional question. John 3:16-17For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. That appears to be technically incorrect. If there was no Son prior to the incarnation, then there was no Son that could be sent.
(Red highlight mine....) Greetings my brother. There is no incorrect technically here~everything is correct and still
does not prove that the Son is eternal. Eternal ONLY in his divine nature, NOT his sonship. I see no problem with the way this scripture is worded
no more than I do with this one:
John 1:6~"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John."
Dear brother, John was sent from God, but that does not make him an
living eternal prophet of God, now does it? I take that no more than the scriptures revealing God's eternal purposes to us in steps as they happen, and nothing more than that. I will answer your other questions later.
: RB Wed Feb 15, 2017 - 05:41:48
: AVZ Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 23:35:32I have an additional question. John 3:16-17For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. That appears to be technically incorrect. If there was no Son prior to the incarnation, then there was no Son that could be sent.
(Red highlight mine....) Greetings my brother. There is no incorrect technically here~everything is correct and still does not prove that the Son is eternal. Eternal ONLY in his divine nature, NOT his sonship. I see no problem with the way this scripture is worded no more than I do with this one: John 1:6~"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John."
Dear brother, John was sent from God, but that does not make him an living eternal prophet of God, now does it? I take that no more than the scriptures revealing God's eternal purposes to us in steps as they happen, and nothing more than that. I will answer your other questions later.
Red, think with me for a second.
If Jesus was already the Son prior to the incarnation, then the Son would be eternal. Unless of course you can make a point that somewhere between eternity past and incarnation the second Person of the Trinity became a Son.
So in my thinking, at some point in the eternal past God said: "I am going to send My Son to the world".
But that would only make sense if there was a Son. You seem to say that the second person of the Trinity was not called or considered "Son" prior to the incarnation.
If there was no Son then John 3:16-17 would have gone like this:
For God so loved the world that He gave His second member of the Trinity, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send His second member of the Trinity into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.So God did not send His Son. He sent the second member of the Trinity to become His Son by human birth.
I wanted to weigh in on this subject of trinity......
I have read most of these discusions and want to make a few points.......
According to the greatest comandmesnt there is only 1 God
here oh Israel the Lord(yahweh) our God is one......
And the only one....
The shema is spoken every sabbath in every synagogue for 3000 years??????
This is a stumbling wall to Jews and muslims to accept Christ who try to understnd trinity and see more than one God.....spoken by gentile western Chrsitians
Muslims say alah akbar..meaning alah is the greatest and only God.......
The word of God repeated by Jesus says that Yahweh the God of abraham Isaac and Jacob is the only one true God
This greatest commandment is foundational and important when addressing the trinity.....
I believe gentiles are confused with this trinity doctrine because we do not see the greatest commandment
that Jesus referred to!!!!
Throughout history gentiles have divided over this doctrine starting with the Nicean creed in 330ad.
PAul stated in Romans that we as gentiles must humble ourselves and not walk in pride or we would be cut off like the Jews in 70ad.
The foundation of the church is Christ the cornerstone built on the foudation of the jewish apsotles and prophets....ephesians 2:20
Until we humble ouselves and get back to our jewish roots we as gentiles will continue to stumble over the cornerstone.......
That wreaks of some serious indoctrination, unreal.
You understand what you believe does not save you right. ::frustrated::
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God AND THE WORD WAS GOD.
The same was in the beginning with God
John 1:3
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
There is a good reason why that passage was written the way it was. Jesus Christ created all things in the universe AND NO CREATED BEING CAN EVER BE A CREATOR
: TheMatrixHasU71 Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 08:59:50
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God AND THE WORD WAS GOD.
The same was in the beginning with God
John 1:3
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
There is a good reason why that passage was written the way it was. Jesus Christ created all things in the universe AND NO CREATED BEING CAN EVER BE A CREATOR
Did it not occur to you that Christ was in the beginning because he was made in the beginning? Why do you suppose that he is called the "firstborn of creation", meaning the first person to be created in all creation? Or that he is the wisdom of God that was made as the first of the works of God? Or even why he is called "son", since a son does not come into existence at the same time as a father, but after a father? Or even why although he was created he was also creator because it relates to being "image of God" (the representation of God)?
UNDERSTAND the word of God, and stop believing the nonsensical lies taught by your churches. They are only going to lead to your perdition for foolishness and lack of understanding. There is a reason why the trinity verses do not appear in earlier manuscripts of scripture and even why men such as Eusebius quoted the Matthew 28:19 verse in a different way, "in my name", because that was the way it was written originally because the trinity form of the verses were forged into the scriptures much later in time pushing a doctrine that is false. OPEN YOUR EYES AND UNDERSTAND.
: cgaviria Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 09:19:10
UNDERSTAND the word of God, and stop believing the nonsensical lies taught by your churches. They are only going to lead to your perdition for foolishness and lack of understanding.
So...you believe that believing in the trinity is the unpardonable sin?
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 10:53:40
So...you believe that believing in the trinity is the unpardonable sin?
It has nothing to do with aeonial sins that are not forgiven, it has to do with merely understanding the word of God, which will subsequently lead you to do the will of God that then yields life, whereas lack of understanding of the word of God, which is evident in your misunderstanding in this matter, will lead you to do no the will of God, which will then yield death. You MUST understand the word of God, otherwise you will perish from lack of understanding. The matter of the trinity is a doctrine of fools, who did not understand the scriptures and formulated a false doctrine mixed with other false religions based on trinities, and have forged it unto the scriptures. Which is why there is manuscript evidences proving this, and even why the trinity verses do not even harmonize with other scriptures that clearly state to do things only in the name of Jesus Christ. It is a doctrine of gullible fools! Listen to my words dear one.
: cgaviria Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 11:07:09
It has nothing to do with aeonial sins that are not forgiven, it has to do with merely understanding the word of God, which will subsequently lead you to do the will of God that then yields life, whereas lack of understanding of the word of God, which is evident in your misunderstanding in this matter, will lead you to do no the will of God, which will then yield death. You MUST understand the word of God, otherwise you will perish from lack of understanding.
What understanding specifically will keep one from perishing, cg? What do you believe that is keeping you right with God?
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 11:09:40
What understanding specifically will keep one from perishing, cg? What do you believe that is keeping you right with God?
First starting with understanding this topic concerning the trinity. Once you come to understanding on this, and acknowledge that what I just told you is true, then we can move forward unto other topics.
: cgaviria Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 11:26:45
First starting with understanding this topic concerning the trinity. Once you come to understanding on this, and acknowledge that what I just told you is true, then we can move forward unto other topics.
its not another topic, you brought it up. But, I can't make you answer for the hope within you. You seem to not want to share that, just slap at others.
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 11:45:30
its not another topic, you brought it up. But, I can't make you answer for the hope within you. You seem to not want to share that, just slap at others.
I'm a busy person. I don't have time to go on endless rants on a forum to again discover that you're going to keep resisting the truth regarding this matter. I have communicated with you before, and it has always been the same case with you. I have spent much time stating my position both from a manuscript and theological perspective, all backed by scripture, and have posted it here,
http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/07/the-deception-of-the-teaching-of-the-trinity/
So take it, or leave it. If you take it, then great, then we can progress into further matters. If not, I bid you farewell.
: cgaviria Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 11:56:19
I'm a busy person. I don't have time to go on endless rants on a forum to again discover that you're going to keep resisting the truth regarding this matter. I have communicated with you before, and it has always been the same case with you. I have spent much time stating my position both from a manuscript and theological perspective, all backed by scripture, and have posted it here,
http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/07/the-deception-of-the-teaching-of-the-trinity/
So take it, or leave it. If you take it, then great, then we can progress into further matters. If not, I bid you farewell.
"Its always been the same case with you". And what case is that?
You say its backed by scripture, but others have also shown that what YOU say is proof isn't as much proof as you'd like it to be to fit your agenda.
However, saying that, I would sincerely enjoy understanding what you are saying and just in plain on regular folk english. I don't have to agree with you to understand you. I can't agree with you as of right now anyway, as I can't hear you past your insulting posting manner and unwillingness to teach from patience. ::shrug:: You just want to tell people what to believe and leave no room for questions or critical thinking from them.
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 12:08:16
"Its always been the same case with you". And what case is that?
You say its backed by scripture, but others have also shown that what YOU say is proof isn't as much proof as you'd like it to be to fit your agenda.
However, saying that, I would sincerely enjoy understanding what you are saying and just in plain on regular folk english. I don't have to agree with you to understand you. I can't agree with you as of right now anyway, as I can't hear you past your insulting posting manner and unwillingness to teach from patience. ::shrug:: You just want to tell people what to believe and leave no room for questions or critical thinking from them.
rofl
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 12:08:16
"Its always been the same case with you". And what case is that?
You say its backed by scripture, but others have also shown that what YOU say is proof isn't as much proof as you'd like it to be to fit your agenda.
However, saying that, I would sincerely enjoy understanding what you are saying and just in plain on regular folk english. I don't have to agree with you to understand you. I can't agree with you as of right now anyway, as I can't hear you past your insulting posting manner and unwillingness to teach from patience. ::shrug:: You just want to tell people what to believe and leave no room for questions or critical thinking from them.
He can't teach you if you're not garbed in your head covering.
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 12:08:16
"Its always been the same case with you". And what case is that?
You say its backed by scripture, but others have also shown that what YOU say is proof isn't as much proof as you'd like it to be to fit your agenda.
However, saying that, I would sincerely enjoy understanding what you are saying and just in plain on regular folk english. I don't have to agree with you to understand you. I can't agree with you as of right now anyway, as I can't hear you past your insulting posting manner and unwillingness to teach from patience. ::shrug:: You just want to tell people what to believe and leave no room for questions or critical thinking from them.
This guy believes Jesus was a created being. Why waste your time with that?
: Texas Conservative Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 12:59:17
This guy believes Jesus was a created being. Why waste your time with that?
Then don't. You'll find out soon enough I was right. The second coming of Christ is about to happen.
: cgaviria Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:06:01
Then don't. You'll find out soon enough I was right. The second coming of Christ is about to happen.
Every other nutjob that comes to this board with their special insight says this.
: cgaviria Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:06:01
Then don't. You'll find out soon enough I was right. The second coming of Christ is about to happen.
BOOM! ... just played the "I'm right and you're wrong and you'll see soon enough card" rofl
If there was truth to everyone of these guys that said that, we'd all be doomed. ::crackup::
: Texas Conservative Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:07:22
Every other nutjob that comes to this board with their special insight says this.
I have no special insight nor do I need it. Just knowledge of the appointed times of the book of Daniel and the Torah. The 1290+1335 years of Daniel are about to expire, in correlation with the next Jubilee year, which happens every 50 years. If you wanna throw out what knowledge I have, then by all means, go right ahead. As I said, soon enough you will know I was right. Perhaps then you might've wished not to be so quick to call that one guy in that forum a nutjob and throw out what knowledge he had as rubbish.
: Alan Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:10:33
BOOM! ... just played the "I'm right and you're wrong and you'll see soon enough card" rofl
If there was truth to everyone of these guys that said that, we'd all be doomed. ::crackup::
I am right, hence why your trinity verses only exist in later manuscripts. How much longer will you people keep resisting the truth?
: cgaviria Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:16:19
I am right, hence why your trinity verses only exist in later manuscripts. How much longer will you people keep resisting the truth?
I don't think we're resisting, you just simply don't possess the truth.
: Alan Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:18:18
I don't think we're resisting, you just simply don't possess the truth.
I do actually, Jesus Christ commanded we do all things in his name alone, not in the name of the trinity. This is the truth that you are resisting, to your own doom because of your stubbornness and lack of understanding. It grieves me for your sake, truly.
: cgaviria Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:21:47
It grieves me for your sake, truly.
No it doesn't. You have NEVER attempted to befriend anyone here, you have come across as the firing squad and we are all the prosecuted.
: Alan Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:25:58
No it doesn't. You have NEVER attempted to befriend anyone here, you have come across as the firing squad and we are all the prosecuted.
Edited for flaming
: cgaviria Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:31:45
I'm not here to be your friend, I am here to teach the truth. Obviously, that is going to anger anyone who does not abide in the truth, just like the Pharisees got pissed off at Christ for teaching the truth. Once you come to the truth, then we can be friends. But until then, I will be stern against anyone opposing the truth of scripture. Again, I repeat, and I will continue repeating it like a parrot or broken record until perhaps one of you gets it, the trinity is a false doctrine, which is why the early manuscripts do not have these verses, the original form of Matthew 28:19 is "in my name", which harmonizes with tons of other scriptures where things are done in the name of Jesus only. UNDERSTAND AND OPEN YOUR EYES.
Yep, that's how it's done. ::playingguitar::
: Texas Conservative Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 12:59:17
This guy believes Jesus was a created being. Why waste your time with that?
How people behave, what they believe and things like that fascinate me. I enjoy understanding where others come from, even if I disagree with them. ::shrug:: ::smile::
: cgaviria Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 13:31:45
I'm not here to be your friend, I am here to teach the truth.
I am always amazed when people take this, "Im not here to be your friend. I'm above you, but I'll teach you peasants from up here." Kindness out. A humble heart? Fahgedaboutit.
Its utterly foolish to think that is an effective way to approach people at all. Course, it works BEAUTIFULLY if you really don't care to convert anyone and only condemn them. ::eatingpopcorn:
Obviously, that is going to anger anyone who does not abide in the truth, just like the Pharisees got pissed off at Christ for teaching the truth.
In this story, you are not Jesus and the board are not the Pharisees. Sorry. That probably really chaps your hide, but its truth.
Once you come to the truth, then we can be friends. But until then, I will be stern against anyone opposing the truth of scripture. Again, I repeat, and I will continue repeating it like a parrot or broken record until perhaps one of you gets it, the trinity is a false doctrine, which is why the early manuscripts do not have these verses, the original form of Matthew 28:19 is "in my name", which harmonizes with tons of other scriptures where things are done in the name of Jesus only. UNDERSTAND AND OPEN YOUR EYES.
False doctrine that does what? Condemns people to hell?
: chosenone Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 11:31:11
I believe the scriptures quoted herein, but not the Nicene Creed itself, which you have quoted. To equate the Nicene Creed as scripture would be like grabbing a Joyce Meyer book and saying, this is scripture. I will also point out that the original creed, which you have modified to suit your own fancy, did you not read as you quoted it, but as so,
"...we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church...."
This is clearly a catholic document, not a document written by any of the apostles. And do not think to even say that "catholic" is referring to the universal church, because if it were, then there would be no need to reference a second church. This is without a doubt a catholic document that errs in a very subtle way.
In the rules of this forum its necessary to believe the above which is entirely scriptural. Catholic does means universal BTW.
The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal"[1][2]) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole".[3][4] The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.
If you believe the above creed, then you believe in the trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
If you can't believe what is said then you need to leave this forum.
The 3 Gods of the Trinity:
The Father of Jesus Christ(John 20:17)
Jesus Christ the Son of the living God(Matthew 16:16)
The Holy Ghost the Spirit of truth(Mark 3:29)
: pkTy Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 15:00:49
The 3 Gods of the Trinity:
The Father of Jesus Christ(John 20:17)
Jesus Christ the Son of the living God(Matthew 16:16)
The Holy Ghost the Spirit of truth(Mark 3:29)
Rather than say 'The 3 Gods of the Trinity' I would say the 3 Persons of the Trinity.
: faroukfarouk Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 00:00:23
Rather than say 'The 3 Gods of the Trinity' I would say the 3 Persons of the Trinity.
Why?
: pkTy Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 17:48:27
Why?
"Three gods" refers to polytheism as opposed to the monotheistic belief in one God that is three beings.
: Alan Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 17:57:10
"Three gods" refers to polytheism as opposed to the monotheistic belief in one God that is three beings.
You believe that God is 3 different beings?
Tell me what you believe?
: Alan Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 17:57:10
"Three gods" refers to polytheism as opposed to the monotheistic belief in one God that is three beings.
Good point indeed.
: faroukfarouk Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 19:51:44
Good point indeed.
If you will scroll up and read my previous post...
you will see that I stated "3 Gods" not "3 gods"
THAT IS A MAJOR DIFFERENCE
one is the Trinity and the other is not.
Did you factor this into your reasoning?
: pkTy Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 20:03:56
If you will scroll up and read my previous post...
you will see that I stated "3 Gods" not "3 gods"
THAT IS A MAJOR DIFFERENCE
one is the Trinity and the other is not.
Did you factor this into your reasoning?
I don't agree, because Biblically there is One God, Three Divine Persons.
: faroukfarouk Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 20:08:33
I don't agree, because Biblically there is One God, Three Divine Persons.
Why don't you use the word truthfully instead of Biblically?
I wonder if proving something truthfully doesn't take president over biblical?
: pkTy Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 20:22:35
Why don't you use the word truthfully instead of Biblically?
...because for me they are one and the same. 'Thy word is truth' (John 17.17).
: faroukfarouk Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 20:24:09
...because for me they are one and the same. 'Thy word is truth' (John 17.17).
There is no error in truth.
Do you agree that anything with any error
so slight as it may be is not truth?
Can we agree upon it?
: pkTy Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 20:26:06
There is no error in truth.
Do you agree that anything with any error
so slight as it may be is not truth?
Can we agree upon it?
I don't know where you are going with your statement. You are going somewhere - I'm not sure where - but to expect me to agree with you before I know where you are going is not realistic, I don't think.
: faroukfarouk Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 20:34:58
I don't know where you are going with your statement. You are going somewhere - I'm not sure where - but to expect me to agree with you before I know where you are going is not realistic, I don't think.
I am trying to establish a point of truth with you.
So as to proceed with you and see at what point we split.
I do not believe there are any errors in the truth.
Therefore nothing spoken or printed is excluded with no exceptions at all.
Do you believe it too?
: pkTy Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 20:57:23
I am trying to establish a point of truth with you.
So as to proceed with you and see at what point we split.
I do not believe there are any errors in the truth.
Therefore nothing spoken or printed is excluded with no exceptions at all.
Do you believe it too?
If you mean that all Bible translations are identical with each other and identical with the original, then the answer is no. If you mean that God has wonderfully preserved His Word, then the answer is yes. :)
: faroukfarouk Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 21:05:14
If you mean that all Bible translations are identical with each other and identical with the original, then the answer is no. If you mean that God has wonderfully preserved His Word, then the answer is yes. :)
Alright I will try again with a different approach.
Which came first...the spoken word or the written word.
A. Spoken word
B. Written word.
Pick correct answer.(one of them is correct)
The Wise Man : How can I know where the devil is hiding at all times?
The Spirit of God: Get rid of all the details.
: faroukfarouk Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 20:08:33
I don't agree, because Biblically there is One God, Three Divine Persons.
The Lord God the Father of Jesus Christ is my God.
Jesus the Christ the Son of the Lord God is my God.
The Seven Spirits of God is my God.
They are all my God.
: cgaviria Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 11:56:19
I'm a busy person. I don't have time to go on endless rants on a forum to again discover that you're going to keep resisting the truth regarding this matter. I have communicated with you before, and it has always been the same case with you. I have spent much time stating my position both from a manuscript and theological perspective, all backed by scripture, and have posted it here,
http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/07/the-deception-of-the-teaching-of-the-trinity/
So take it, or leave it. If you take it, then great, then we can progress into further matters. If not, I bid you farewell.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit feature prominently in John's First Epistle, John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 - 17, end of Matthew 28, etc.
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 14:14:40
I am always amazed when people take this, "Im not here to be your friend. I'm above you, but I'll teach you peasants from up here." Kindness out. A humble heart? Fahgedaboutit.
Its utterly foolish to think that is an effective way to approach people at all. Course, it works BEAUTIFULLY if you really don't care to convert anyone and only condemn them. ::eatingpopcorn:
In this story, you are not Jesus and the board are not the Pharisees. Sorry. That probably really chaps your hide, but its truth.
False doctrine that does what? Condemns people to hell?
I am here telling you the truth that the teaching of the trinity is a lie. Rather than get upset in how I delivered this message, believe the message, because of the evidences provided in the study. I am not speaking sternly because of my pride as you accuse me of having, I am speaking sternly because of the deception I see you believers in, which will indeed prevent you from achieving the life you think you will achieve, because the deception of the trinity is rooted in deep lies that will prevent you from truly coming into the understanding of God, which will in turn, prevent you from achieving aeonial life, because of the lie. Please, open your eyes. There is a reason why the trinitarian verses were forged unto the scriptures, which we can clearly see with manuscript evidences today, in that the trinitarian verses did not exist in the earlier manuscripts, because it is a lie.
bye
: Charles Martel Mon Dec 03, 2018 - 19:03:01I read several replies on this thread and didn't find any that listed the main tenets of the Trinity. I read the Nicene Creed and didn't see the Trinity mentioned in it. I don't understand why so much emphasis is place on the trinity.
How far did you go back into this thread? One actually needed to start at the beginning and stop where the debate was basically over~ the last page or so of this thread where nothing was truly discussed and explained but just some personal attacks of a war of words going after each person's character.
Why do you not give your understanding of the main tenets of the Godhead and let them be tested?
bye
: cgaviria Tue Feb 07, 2017 - 15:40:39
The teaching of the trinity is a lie, hence why its mention in this verse of scripture,
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7 [KJV])
Only exists in a few manuscripts, all dated much later in time, and because of this is why most English translations of this verse do not render it with this trinitarian forgery. The only other reference of the trinity in scripture is this verse,
Do your homework then, because 1 John 5:7 was originally part of scripture before it was removed, probably by believers that have a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept of there being 3 Witnesses within the One God.
Quoted from this link below to give you cause to actually go over to that link and read some more.
https://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/1_john_57_and_the_record_in_heaven.html
"Early manuscript evidence that exists for I John 5:7,8
Early church writers that used it:
Cyprian 200 - 258 AD. "The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one;' and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one'." If Cyprian quotes I John 5:7 from his Bible in 200• 258 AD, it must be a valid reading. His Bible was copied from an older manuscript containing this verse.
Cyprian lived only 100 years after John wrote the book of I John. Cyprian would have had access to the original manuscript to check.
• Priscillian 350 AD, a Spanish bishop quotes I John 5:7,8.
• Idacius Clarus 360 AD, who opposed Priscillian quotes it.
• Varimadum 380 AD.
• Cassiodorus 485 AD.
• Cassian 435 AD.
• Victor Vita 489 AD.
• Jerome 450 AD.
• Fulgentius 533 AD.
• Ps. Vigilius 484 AD.
• Ansbert 660 AD.
Early bible versions that include it:
Old Syriac 170 AD.
Old Latin 200 AD, in North Africa and Italy.
Italic 4th and 5th century. – Italic • Monacensis 7th century.
Italic • Speculum 9th century.
Latin Vulgate 4th, 5th century.
Greek miniscule manuscripts that include it:
• 221 in the 10th century.(variant).
• 88 in the 12th century.(margin).
• 629 in the 14th century.(Ottobanianus)
• 429 in the 14th century (margin).
• 636 in the 15th century. (margin).
• 61 in the 16th century.(Codex Montfortianus)
• 918 in the 16th century. (an Escorial ms).
• 2318 (a Bucharest manuscript).
Early writings:
Liber Apologeticus 350 AD. Council of Carthage 415 AD."
So 1 John 5:7 belongs in scripture, brother.
And just because the Father's will be done and not the Son's, that does not mean we can deny the deity of Jesus Christ.
Read John 5:22...
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
We know that God judges, right? So do we apply John 5:22 that says the Father judges no one and therefore we conclude that we can deny the deity of the Father? Of course not, because there are scripture testifying to the deity of the Father. The same is to be for the Son when there are verses plainly testifying to the deity of Christ as God because that is why He was crucified.
So you have to align your beliefs up with the whole of scripture in order for you to know if you are applying those selected scripture rightly, and brother, you are not doing that, but only He can help you see that truth in His words for why you must reprove your erroneous beliefs for what they are because God is the Saviour and yet Jesus is the Saviour; and therefore Jesus is God.
I believe in the Triune God as there are 3 Witnesses within the One God BUT scripture specifically states how we are to approach God the Father by and that is by the only way of the Son in worship; John 14:6 as there is a judgment on every believer in this regard as stated in John 5:22 and that judgment is by how believers honor the Father by honoring the Son BECAUSE by not honoring the Son, they are no longer honoring the Father per John 5:23.
I had addressed several lines in the Nicene creed about scriptural references to those 2 lines in this thread's inquiry at the link below as they were found wanting.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/bible-verses/a-question-about-a-bible-reference-for-a-line-in-nicene-creed/msg1055125144/#new
But no believer should deny the deity of Christ or else they will die in their sins.
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
One can ask the Lord Jesus Christ for wisdom ( who do we pray to except God? ) to help you understand the Triune God, but although the Trinity doctrine can only be true when applied to the existence of the Triune God but not for the practice of worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, because we cannot honor the father by honoring the Holy Spirit or the Trinity as a whole when His word specifically states that the Father is only honored by only honoring the Son.
So I believe in the Triune God and the Holy Spirit is God as the Son is God, but scripture narrows the way for how God the Father wants us to come to Him by in worship, fellowship, and prayer and that is by the only way of the Son. That is Who scripture & the Holy Ghost in us is still pointing believers to go to in coming to God the Father by as we can only live this reconciled relationship with God the father thru Jesus Christ Whom is God our Saviour.
: LastCall Sat Dec 08, 2018 - 18:24:50
Do your homework then, because 1 John 5:7 was originally part of scripture before it was removed, probably by believers that have a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept of there being 3 Witnesses within the One God.
Quoted from this link below to give you cause to actually go over to that link and read some more.
https://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/1_john_57_and_the_record_in_heaven.html
"Early manuscript evidence that exists for I John 5:7,8
Early church writers that used it:
Cyprian 200 - 258 AD. "The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one;' and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one'." If Cyprian quotes I John 5:7 from his Bible in 200• 258 AD, it must be a valid reading. His Bible was copied from an older manuscript containing this verse.
Cyprian lived only 100 years after John wrote the book of I John. Cyprian would have had access to the original manuscript to check.
• Priscillian 350 AD, a Spanish bishop quotes I John 5:7,8.
• Idacius Clarus 360 AD, who opposed Priscillian quotes it.
• Varimadum 380 AD.
• Cassiodorus 485 AD.
• Cassian 435 AD.
• Victor Vita 489 AD.
• Jerome 450 AD.
• Fulgentius 533 AD.
• Ps. Vigilius 484 AD.
• Ansbert 660 AD.
Early bible versions that include it:
Old Syriac 170 AD.
Old Latin 200 AD, in North Africa and Italy.
Italic 4th and 5th century. – Italic • Monacensis 7th century.
Italic • Speculum 9th century.
Latin Vulgate 4th, 5th century.
Greek miniscule manuscripts that include it:
• 221 in the 10th century.(variant).
• 88 in the 12th century.(margin).
• 629 in the 14th century.(Ottobanianus)
• 429 in the 14th century (margin).
• 636 in the 15th century. (margin).
• 61 in the 16th century.(Codex Montfortianus)
• 918 in the 16th century. (an Escorial ms).
• 2318 (a Bucharest manuscript).
Early writings:
Liber Apologeticus 350 AD. Council of Carthage 415 AD."
So 1 John 5:7 belongs in scripture, brother.
And just because the Father's will be done and not the Son's, that does not mean we can deny the deity of Jesus Christ.
Read John 5:22...
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
We know that God judges, right? So do we apply John 5:22 that says the Father judges no one and therefore we conclude that we can deny the deity of the Father? Of course not, because there are scripture testifying to the deity of the Father. The same is to be for the Son when there are verses plainly testifying to the deity of Christ as God because that is why He was crucified.
So you have to align your beliefs up with the whole of scripture in order for you to know if you are applying those selected scripture rightly, and brother, you are not doing that, but only He can help you see that truth in His words for why you must reprove your erroneous beliefs for what they are because God is the Saviour and yet Jesus is the Saviour; and therefore Jesus is God.
From The Holy Aramaic Scriptures.com https://theholyaramaicscriptures.weebly.com/1-joh-5.html
1 John 5: 7-8
ܘܪܘܚܐ ܡܣܗܕܐ ܕܗܝ ܪܘܚܐ ܐܝܬܝܗ ܫܪܪܐ7 And The Rukha {The Spirit} testifies; because that One, The Rukha {The Spirit}, is The Truth.
ܘܐܝܬܝܗܘܢ ܬܠܬܐ ܣܗܕܝܢ ܪܘܚܐ ܘܡܝܐ ܘܕܡܐ ܘܬܠܬܝܗܘܢ ܒܚܕ ܐܢܘܢ8 And there are three testifying: The Rukha {The Spirit}, and The Water, and The Blood. And these three are in One.
bye
: Charles Martel Sat Dec 08, 2018 - 19:13:33
I John 5:7 is simply and clearly speaking about testifying that Jesus is the son of God. There's NOTHING about a co-equal trinity in the text. The entire theme of chapter 5 is "JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD" and nothing else. Maybe you guys should re-familiarize yourself with the trinity doctrine. AND, I would prefer that you give me your opinion rather than long pages and lnks from others. Do your own homework.
But here you are posting long articles and links and then telling us to do our homework...
LastCall said,
"Do your homework then, because 1 John 5:7 was originally part of scripture before it was removed, probably by believers that have a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept of there being 3 Witnesses within the One God."
____________________________________________________________________
In 1 John 5:7 The Father, the Word, and the Spirit testifying Jesus is the Son of God does not imply a Trinity. Neither does being of one mind and neither does the three bearing a unified witness in heaven, in any way even infer a trinity! Just because they are mentioned at the same time is meaningless to the tenets of the trinity doctrine.
Maybe you guys should re-familiarize yourself with the doctrine before posting.
Add this one into your memory bank.......
The Greek English Interlinear https://www.logosapostolic.org/interlinear-nt/1-john/05.htm
There is a posting problem for me on this one. It reads, if you check the link horizontally but I can only post vertically, so I have made the English words red to more easily read that the Greeks also talk of the Trinity... or three in one as well as the
Aramaic
7.
ὅτι
For
τρεῖς
three
εἰσιν
are
οἱ
the ones
μαρτυροῦντες
bearing witness
ἐν
in
τῷ
the
οὐρανῷ
heaven,
ὁ
the
πατὴρ
Father,
ὁ
the
λόγος
word,
καὶ
and
τὸ
the
ἅγιον
Holy
πνεῦμα
Spirit,
καὶ
and
οὗτοι
these [/u]
οἱ
the [/u]
τρεῖς
three [/u]
ἕν
one [/u]
εἰσιν
are.[/u]
8.
καὶ
And
τρεῖς
three
εἰσιν
are
οἱ
the ones
μαρτυροῦντες
bearing witness
ἐν
on
τῇ
the
γῇ
earth,
τὸ
the
πνεῦμα
Spirit,
καὶ
and
τὸ
the
ὕδωρ
water,
καὶ
and
τὸ
the
αἷμα
blood,
καὶ
and
οἱ
the
τρεῖς
three
εἰς
in
τὸ
the [/u]
ἕν
one [/u]
εἰσιν
are.[/u]
Aramaic and Greek inspired,
by God, confirmation... long before translators cherry picked what they would and would not include in their translations and in their bibles.
Just because YOU cannot wrap your head around a three in one concept, does not make it not so. I gave a 1st grade primer example of such that anyone can understand in the thread I started earlier today in General Discussion to keep me from this specific forum but somehow I seem to find myself back here.
You do realize that the human being also is a triune being, don't you. Well... not going there now....
you would not be able to understand.
You are simply wrong on this.
But guess what. I do not care.
bye
bye
bye
It is not surprising that the concept of the trinity is confusing and difficult to understand. The simple truth is that no one really understands the spirit, whether it is the spirit of man or the spirit of Deity. We have no experiential basis to really understand anything spiritual. Trying to argue definitively on the subject is all rather useless. What we know from God's word is that there is God the Father, there is Jesus the Son and there is the Holy Spirit. Except in the case of Jesus the Son in His earthly form of a man, we really have no basis to understand any of it. We do our best to make sense of it. The fact that the Bible does not present detailed information or instruction concerning the connection, the alliance, the relationship of the Spirit entities labelled the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit suggests that like all other aspects of the spiritual realm the best we have is a figurative representation. Arguing endlessly about that figurative representation of God is not a very productive thing to do. We simply have to recognize that there is, according to God's revelation about Himself, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Even the notion of "being" or "entity" or "person" or "personage" is at best an attempt to put a physical meaning to a spiritual concept, i.e., a figurative explanation.
: Ginger Rella Sat Dec 08, 2018 - 18:37:15
From The Holy Aramaic Scriptures.com https://theholyaramaicscriptures.weebly.com/1-joh-5.html
1 John 5: 7-8
ܘܪܘܚܐ ܡܣܗܕܐ ܕܗܝ ܪܘܚܐ ܐܝܬܝܗ ܫܪܪܐ
7 And The Rukha {The Spirit} testifies; because that One, The Rukha {The Spirit}, is The Truth.
ܘܐܝܬܝܗܘܢ ܬܠܬܐ ܣܗܕܝܢ ܪܘܚܐ ܘܡܝܐ ܘܕܡܐ ܘܬܠܬܝܗܘܢ ܒܚܕ ܐܢܘܢ
8 And there are three testifying: The Rukha {The Spirit}, and The Water, and The Blood. And these three are in One.
Apparently not all has kept 1 John 5:7 as it originally was in scripture.
Proof that something is amiss is by looking at verse 9 when it testify how God's witness is greater then men's, and yet by His words, God has commanded that there be two or three witnesses to establish a word or to judge as in condemn any one in the O.T.
Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Evidence that those verses testify to the make up of God testify to Who He is as the Triune God.
The N.T. enforces this;
John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
So how can 1 John 5:9 be true by eliminating the original words of 1 John 5:7 as the KJV has it? The message is disconnected from its conclusion in verse 9.
Wisdom comes from the Lord and there are scripture testifying to the deity of Jesus Christ...
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
And there are scripture testifying to the Person of the Holy Spirit...
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
So basically what God demands of men to establish a testimony speaks to the Triune God in establishing a word in creation and what God demands of men to judge any one speaks to the Triune God in judging the world as He did at the tower of Babylon.
So 1 John 5:7 as it originally was, belongs in scripture, otherwise, the message disconnects from the flow of that conclusion of how God's witness is greater then men's.
: justbyfaith Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 00:48:41
Unless you know well how to combat false doctrine and you are trained up in the field of apologetics, I suggest that obedience to the following verse is needed for many:
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18.
I did not even read cvagaria's post because I understand that its premise is based in false doctrine. Every cult that has ever been denies the Trintiy in some way, shape or form. So in reading this thread, I went straight to fish153's response and was edified by it.
It helps to know who are the faithful teachers of God's word on these forums.
I confess that I didn't bother to read all parts of the opening posts in their attack upon the doctrine of the trinity. Somebody once said you shouldn't begin a statement with an apology. (I think it was Adolph Hitler, but don't quote me on that.) Nevertheless I do admit to an incomplete reading because it was a redundant load of bovine excrement.
The Bible is rather specific as to the existence of the Trinity, however it's a difficult concept for most to understand. Can it be satisfactorily explained in just a few words? Most cannot do so. Trinity doctrine is difficult because nobody bothers to put the idea into simple terms. Can you define it in six words or less? How about two words? The Bible does.
Christians don't really understand it because its rooted in the Old Covenant. Anything Old Covenant to them is to be discarded even though it explains all of the New Covenant. Christians, as well as Jews, don't really want to understand anything so much as to promote their own agenda. That being said.....
The following is the shema (pronounced sh-MA) prayer. It's one of the oldest statements of faith in recorded history and is one of the foundations of Judaism.
The Shema (Hebrew version)
Shema Yisrael,
Adonai Eloheinu.
Adonai
echad.
The Schema (English version)
Hear O Israel,
The Lord Our God.
The Lord is
one.
The prayer is the very definition of a monotheistic religion and can be found in
Deuteronomy 6:4 and the gospel of
Mark 12:29 where Jesus is quoted as saying it's the most important commandment. What does this have to do with the Trinity?
I'd like to draw your attention to the last word in the prayer.
The Hebrew word we need to look at closely is
ECHAD, which can be translated into English as "
one". Jewish scholars, who basically reject the idea that Jesus is God and who also deny the existence of the Ruach Hakodesh (Holy Spirit - or - spirit holy) have adopted an incorrect interpretation of their own language to obfuscate the nature of the God they worship. As a result they accept some very confusing and irrational interpretations. But the word
ECHAD doesn't really mean ONE in the sense of being an absolute number.
The Hebrew word for absolute one is YACHID. Yachid means one in the sense of there being one sun in the sky or one earth beneath our feet. Yachid means an absolute one. Why then did the Holy Spirit (Ruach Hakodesh) inspire the prayer with the word ECHAD instead? YACHID is the Hebrew word for solitary one-ness and is NEVER used in scripture references to God.
The Hebrew word for 'a unified one' is ECHAD. For instance, in Genesis 2:24 God says of Adam and Eve that the two shall become
ECHAD (one). This is the same word used in Deuteronomy 6:4 - the shema prayer! It implies a unified one from separate parts.
* * *
The etymology of the Hebrew word YACHID (solitary or absolute 'one') is derived from ECHAD in the same way the English word "only" is derived from the word "one".
That YACHID is from the same root family of words as ECHAD is seen from the similarity of spelling. So "YACHID" is to "only", what "ECHAD" is to "one".
In other words, God is ECHAD - a unified one-ness.
Now you can't have a union of anything if there's only one of it. A union has to have multiple parts. In reference to a political entity, we may correctly say the United States is ONE in the sense of fifty separate parts being a union. In reference to the nature of God the multiple parts are Father Son and Holy Spirit - a union of three parts as one.
ADONAI ECHAD.That's the Trinity in two words. How simple does it have to get?
Or do we need to go on endlessly arguing about something that scripture is quite definite in stating?
Proverbs 17:10 says fools will argue endlessly because they refuse to accept truth or correction.
Does God not know what He's talking about when He refers to Himself in scripture as ADONAI ECHAD?
It seems to me anti-Trinitarians are calling God a liar.
What person or entity in the Bible calls God a liar?
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Quotations from the New Testament are our records ~ records of the Church ~ to tell Christian what the Holy Bible means or is saying is foolish ~ instead~ the outside ~ should ask what is meant ~ what we called the Old Testament are records of the Hebrew people ~ there is no one today practicing the faith of the Hebrew people ~ except the Christian ~ you might say ~ practicing the fulfillment ```
Jesus is Christ ~ we went to see and follow him ~ we returned and told of his wonder ~ others went to be with Him and learn ~ he foretold of his death and rising ~ his followers came to us and taught us ~ our kings killed them slowly ~ but they would not recant and deny our Lord ```
Park Austoozo ~ Glory to our God ```
No God is NOT a "voice" and He is definitely NOT a bird !!
: Choir Loft Fri Jan 11, 2019 - 07:14:54
I confess that I didn't bother to read all parts of the opening posts in their attack upon the doctrine of the trinity. Somebody once said you shouldn't begin a statement with an apology. (I think it was Adolph Hitler, but don't quote me on that.) Nevertheless I do admit to an incomplete reading because it was a redundant load of bovine excrement.
The Bible is rather specific as to the existence of the Trinity, however it's a difficult concept for most to understand. Can it be satisfactorily explained in just a few words? Most cannot do so. Trinity doctrine is difficult because nobody bothers to put the idea into simple terms. Can you define it in six words or less? How about two words? The Bible does.
Christians don't really understand it because its rooted in the Old Covenant. Anything Old Covenant to them is to be discarded even though it explains all of the New Covenant. Christians, as well as Jews, don't really want to understand anything so much as to promote their own agenda. That being said.....
The following is the shema (pronounced sh-MA) prayer. It's one of the oldest statements of faith in recorded history and is one of the foundations of Judaism.
The Shema (Hebrew version)
Shema Yisrael,
Adonai Eloheinu.
Adonai echad.
The Schema (English version)
Hear O Israel,
The Lord Our God.
The Lord is one.
The prayer is the very definition of a monotheistic religion and can be found in Deuteronomy 6:4 and the gospel of Mark 12:29 where Jesus is quoted as saying it's the most important commandment. What does this have to do with the Trinity?
I'd like to draw your attention to the last word in the prayer.
The Hebrew word we need to look at closely is ECHAD, which can be translated into English as "one". Jewish scholars, who basically reject the idea that Jesus is God and who also deny the existence of the Ruach Hakodesh (Holy Spirit - or - spirit holy) have adopted an incorrect interpretation of their own language to obfuscate the nature of the God they worship. As a result they accept some very confusing and irrational interpretations. But the word ECHAD doesn't really mean ONE in the sense of being an absolute number.
The Hebrew word for absolute one is YACHID.
Yachid means one in the sense of there being one sun in the sky or one earth beneath our feet. Yachid means an absolute one. Why then did the Holy Spirit (Ruach Hakodesh) inspire the prayer with the word ECHAD instead? YACHID is the Hebrew word for solitary one-ness and is NEVER used in scripture references to God.
The Hebrew word for 'a unified one' is ECHAD.
For instance, in Genesis 2:24 God says of Adam and Eve that the two shall become ECHAD (one). This is the same word used in Deuteronomy 6:4 - the shema prayer! It implies a unified one from separate parts.
* * *
The etymology of the Hebrew word YACHID (solitary or absolute 'one') is derived from ECHAD in the same way the English word "only" is derived from the word "one".
That YACHID is from the same root family of words as ECHAD is seen from the similarity of spelling. So "YACHID" is to "only", what "ECHAD" is to "one".
In other words, God is ECHAD - a unified one-ness.
Now you can't have a union of anything if there's only one of it. A union has to have multiple parts. In reference to a political entity, we may correctly say the United States is ONE in the sense of fifty separate parts being a union. In reference to the nature of God the multiple parts are Father Son and Holy Spirit - a union of three parts as one.
ADONAI ECHAD.
That's the Trinity in two words. How simple does it have to get?
Or do we need to go on endlessly arguing about something that scripture is quite definite in stating?
Proverbs 17:10 says fools will argue endlessly because they refuse to accept truth or correction.
Does God not know what He's talking about when He refers to Himself in scripture as ADONAI ECHAD?
It seems to me anti-Trinitarians are calling God a liar.
What person or entity in the Bible calls God a liar?
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Interesting take. Valid points as well in my view. I think the issue I have with modern "Trinitarians" is what seems like a position that 3 separate entities exist apart from each other.
That one entity can promote a different teaching, or different point of view than the other. The Hebrew word you referenced means unity. So when Jesus said Him and His Father are One, this would mean nothing divides them. When the scriptures teach of their Spirit, which would be obviously a Holy Spirit, there is nothing that divides them.
For me, when ever these Word's come up in Scriptures, Holy Spirit, Son of God, God, Jesus, Spirit of God, Christ, Lamb of God, Lord of Hosts, I know they are speaking of ONE, complete unity, no divisions in thought, understanding, truth, etc.
So then if we know the God of Abraham, we know Jesus, and we know the Holy Spirit because they are ONE as the scriptures teach.
So when Peter says; "And also the Holy Spirit which God gives to those who obey Him" this includes God, the Son of God, and their Spirit.
Can God truly exist in our minds without His Spirit, or without the Christ? I think not, because they are one.
I love the truth about the Godhead being founded in the Law and Prophets. The implication of many religions that the Law and Prophets have become obsolete, would also imply that the Godhead was changed as well.
Good topic. Great post.
Greetings ~ Brothers, Sisters ~ I haven't read all the posts to this thread ~ I want just to have a word at the OP ```
We will tell you what is so and what is not of the Mystery of the Trinity ~ we have studied also ~ and we were there ~ walked with the Christ and viewed his doings ~ as to the scriptures. the Christian Bible and the Hebrew writings ~ the Christian Bible is as accurate as we could keep it of the sayings of the men and woman who walked and ate with Christ ~ we have translations, these too are as close as can be ~ We were there, we waked with Christ and the Apostles ~ went home and told our families ~ our cousins went to follow Him ~ we were followers of Christ before you or the Hazars took up or claimed to take up the religion of the Hebrew ( some seven hundred years after the birth of Christ ) the Hebrew who is now spread among Christian peoples ~ no one today practices the religion of the Hebrew ~ he today who claims the title is not/nor related to the Hebrew of the Old Testament ~ and you what ever you claim or spit can not read into our book and dare to tell us what we mean or meant by any passage or word ~ show respect and ask what is meant ~ Or
փակիր դժոխքը ```
Thank you brothers, sisters ~ I hope you and those who love you have had a wonderful Holy Week and a have a Glorious Easter ```
Ohan