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Do Catholics Worship Mary?
The answer to this depends on what is meant by "worship". In the modern sense of the word, the one normally used by Protestants, the answer is definitely NO because the meaning of the word has been drastically narrowed to mean something that is due to God alone.

However the word 'worship' has an older and more general meaning as I will explain in a moment. In that sense (and I emphasis that sense) the answer is yes.

Latria and Dulia
The official language of the Catholic Church is Latin, not English. From the earliest times it has maintained a distinction between the honour and reverence due to God alone and the lesser honour that can be given to creatures. The former is know as latria and is usually translated into English as Adoration. The latter is dulia and is normally translated into English as Veneration. Mary is given a special level of dulia known as hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia").

Continued. in next post.

Worship.
According to the Online Etymology Dictionary the English word worship has a general meaning of being worthy, honour:
O.E. worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (W.Saxon) "condition of being worthy, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of "reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being" is first recorded c.1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful (c.1300). The verb is recorded from c.1200.
In that sense it can be applied to humans as well as God.

The Protestant Archbishop Thomas Cranmer wrote the Anglican book of common prayer. The marriage ceremony in use until quite recently included the line from the groom to the bride "with my body I thee worship"

In England we still use the term in that sense for addressing Mayors or one level of the judiciary.
His or Her Worship is an honorific prefix for mayors, Justices of the Peace and magistrates in present or former Commonwealth realms. In spoken address, these officials are addressed as Your Worship or referred to as His or Her Worship. (Wikipedia).

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that 'worship' in that sense is an 'umbrella' word that covers a range of actions.

Therefore you can find old documents that use this archaic or umbrella sense of the word regarding Mary, as in this (which anti-Catholic Protestants love to quote).
"For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them"
Encyclical Of Pope Pius X On The Immaculate Conception Given at Rome in St. Peter's on the second day of February, 1904. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html)

Continued in next post

Equivocation
Equivocation is a logical fallacy which is easy to fall into in English where words have multiple meanings.
"a fallacy based on the use of the same term in different senses, esp as the middle term of a syllogism, as the badger lives in the bank, and the bank is in the High Street, so the badger lives in the High Street" (Collins Dictionary).

To take the word "worship" from an old document where it is used in an archaic or umbrella sense and then use it as though it was intended in a modern (Protestant) sense would be equivocation, and a perversion of the truth.

There is a good article on this here: http://catholicexchange.com/war-of-the-words-who-do-we-worship (http://catholicexchange.com/war-of-the-words-who-do-we-worship)

(End)

We pray to those whom we worship.

the rosary contains TEN TIMES more prayers to MARY than to GOD.

"For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them" ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X ON THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION Given at Rome in St. Peter's on the second day of February, 1904, in the first year of Our Pontificate. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html


Now, you catholics can play around with word-games like dulia and hyperdulia, etc. but sorry, worship IS worship.

Definition of "worship" : Ardent devotion; adoration.

bishop strossmeyer (spelling?) said "we have made a Goddess out of mary"

of course, comments like these don't help!

"Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone." St. John Chrysostom

"All those who seek Mary's protection will be saved for all eternity." Pope Benedict XV


Pope Pius IX in 1854  "Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. " 

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary." Doesn't this sound like worship?

I wrote this back in 2015...says it all:


Some time ago someone pointed out to me the book "The Glories of Mary" and if I wanted to know more about the position of Mary in the Catholic Church, it would give me more
insight.

The book is written by Saint Alphonsus Maria de Liquori, who was a Catholic Bishop, Doctor of the Church, canonized in 1839
The book is approved by the Catholic Church and bears the Imprimatur  and Nihil Obstat of the Catholic Church which basically means that the teaching in this book is correct
and does not obtain anothing objectable.
Its also a thick book, 900 pages, and I have managed to struggle through about a third sofar...but I am not sure if I can go any further.

What I am reading really blows me off my socks. I had no idea the position of Mary was so prominent. I also think things have been taken waaaaaaaaaay too far.
Let me post a few passages from the book:





"Our Lady will honor in the next world those who honor her in this." Is there anyone not aware of the promise made by Mary herself in the words of Ecclesiasticus: They that
explain me (Mary) shall have life everlasting (Ecclus 24:31)? The Church applies this passage to Mary in the Office of the Immaculate Conception.

"Let us therefore always honor with our hearts and tongues this Blessed Lady so that she may conduct us into the kingdom of the blessed."

"...all graces are dispensed by Mary, and that all who are saved obtain salvation through Mary."


"Let us love Jesus and Mary and become saints."


in calling Mary our mediatress, I mean that she is a mediatrix of grace, and that her office differs from that of Jesus Christ, who is our principal and sole mediator of
justice. In calling Mary omnipotent (as Saint John Damascene, Saint Peter Damian, Saint Bonaventure, Saint Cosmas of Jerusalem, and others have done), I intend to signify
that, as Mother of God, she obtains from him by her prayers all that she asks for the benefit of her clients. Taken absolutely, neither mediation nor omnipotence is
attributable to Mary, since she is only a creature. In calling her our hope, I mean that all graces (as Saint Bernard teaches) pass through her hands.


The Abbot Rupert also says that if Jesus is the king of the universe, then Mary is its queen. And Saint Bernardine of Siena assures us that all creatures who serve God must
also serve Mary. All angels, all men, all things in heaven and on earth, inasmuch as they are subject to God's dominion, are also subject to Mary. That is why the Abbot
Guerric turns to Mary and says: "Continue, O Mary, to feel that all that your Son possesses is yours. Have no hesitation in acting as a queen, as Mother of the King, and as
his spouse, for both the kingdom and the power over it belong to you."


O sublime virgin, I know that as queen of the universe you are also my queen. In a very special manner, I want to dedicate myself to your service, so that you can do with me
whatever you please. And so I say to you with Saint Bonaventure, "O Lady, I want to subject myself to your reign, so that you rule over me and govern me in everything. Do not
abandon me to myself." Command me; use me as you please; yes, even punish me if I disobey you. Any chastisement coming from you will be helpful to me. Being your servant means
more to me than being the ruler of the whole world. I am yours; save me (Ps 118:94). O Mary, accept me as your own, and procure my salvation. I have no longer any desire to
belong to myself. I give myself to you entirely.
If in the past I have been remiss in your service, if I have lost so many opportunities to honor you, I now want you to number me among your most loyal and devoted servants. I
do not want anyone to surpass me in loving you, my amiable queen. This I promise and this I hope with your help to accomplish. Amen.



There is no doubt, then, that in every battle with hell we shall surely win if we fly to Mary and repeat over and over again: "We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God."
O how many victories have the faithful won over the forces of hell because they had recourse to Mary with this short but powerful prayer!


"Ah, my most sweet Mary," exclaimed Saint John Berchmans, S.J., "happy the man that loves you. If I love Mary, I am certain of final perseverance and I shall obtain whatever I
ask from God." Therefore, this holy youth never tired of renewing his resolution and of repeating often to himself: "I will love Mary! I will love Mary!"


Mary is the mother of all sinners who wish to repent. And as such, she cannot help but pity them. In fact, she feels the misfortunes of her children as though they were her
own.


"O Lady, O my Mother! On account of my sins I deserve to be abandoned by you and punished according to my just desserts. But even though you would banish me and take my life,
I will still trust in you and hope with a firm hope that you will save me. My entire confidence is in you. Give me the grace to die before your image, recommending myself to
your mercy. That will convince me that I will not be lost and that I will go to praise you in heaven, in the company of so many of your servants who, when dying, called on you
for help, and who were all saved by your powerful intercession."


I come to you (Mary). You are able to help me. Do help me. Do not tell me that you are unable to help me, because I know you are all-powerful and can obtain from God whatever
you ask him. And if you say you cannot help me, then tell me to whom I can go for help.


Later, in the same book of Proverbs, these words are applied to Mary: He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord (Prov 8:35). "Pay
attention to these words," exclaims Saint Bonaventure, "you that desire the kingdom of God. Honor Mary and you shall find life and eternal salvation."


Listen to the devout Bernardine de Bustis: "Do not be afraid, O sinner, even if you have committed every kind of sin. Run to this lady and you will find her hands filled with
mercy. She desires more to do you good than you can desire to receive favors from her."


Behold, O Mother of God, Mary, my hope, behold me at your feet, a poor sinner begging for mercy. All the faithful all over the world proclaim you the "refuge of sinners." You
are then my refuge, and you must save me.


I fly to your protection. Jesus wants me to turn to you, so that, to his glory and yours, both his blood and your prayers may help me to be saved. It is Jesus who sends me to
you for help.


Happy the man, says Mary, watching daily at my gates, waiting at my doorposts (Prov 8:34).


And if you protect me, what shall I fear? I fear nothing. Not from my sins, because you can repair the damage I have done. Not from the devils, because you are more powerful
than all hell together. Not even from your son, who is so justly angry with me, because at one word from you he will be appeased.
In you, O Mother of my God, I have the greatest confidence. From you I expect the grace to grieve for my sins as I ought. From you I hope for the strength never to fall again.
If I ever become ill again, you, O heavenly physician, can heal me. If my sins have weakened me, your help can make me strong. O Mary, I hope for everything from you, because
you are all-powerful with God. Amen


You are the Queen of Heaven. You reign over the universe.
Let this be to your eternal glory, that you have saved a wretch already condemned to hell and have led him to your kingdom where, at your feet,hope ever to love, to bless, to
thank you eternally. O Mary, I shall be waiting for you. Do not leave me without your consolation at the moment of death. So be it. Amen. Amen.


"O my Lady, you alone are my consolation from God, the guide for my path, the strength for my weakness, the wealth for my poverty, the medicine for my wounds, the assuagement
of my sorrows, the severing of my fetters, the hope of my salvation. Hear my prayers, have pity on my sighs, O my Lady, my refuge, my life, my help, my hope, and my strength."


O Mother of holy love, our life, our refuge, and our hope! You know that your son, Jesus Christ, was not content himself with being our perpetual advocate with the Eternal
Father. He also wanted you to act as our advocate to obtain divine mercy for us.


Saint Ephrem says to Mary: "You are the only advocate of sinners and the helpless."


Saint Thomas of Villanova: "We do not know of any refuge but you. You are the only one in whom we trust. You are the only one to whom we look for aid." O Mary, we poor sinners cannot find any other refuge but you. You, to whom we all have turned, are our only hope and we confide our salvation to you. You are our only advocate with Jesus Christ.


"Look to her, you sinners who are lost, and she will lead you to port." Poor sinners, you who are lost, do not despair; raise your eyes to this beautiful star and regain the
breath of hope, because she will bring you out of the storm and lead you to the port of salvation.


"Before Mary," says the saint, "there was nobody who dared stay God's hand. But now, whenever God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she
restrains her son's hand and withholds him from punishing.


One day, the same Saint Bridget heard Jesus say to his mother: "You would obtain mercy even for Lucifer if he humbly asked for it." That proud spirit, however, would never
humble himself so much as to beg for Mary's protection. Nevertheless, were it possible for Lucifer to humiliate himself enough to ask Mary for her protection, she would have
the power and mercy to obtain his pardon and salvation from God.


"As Queen, she possesses by right the whole kingdom of her son."


"There are just as many creatures serving Mary as there are serving God."


"All things in heaven and earth are under God's dominion so that they are, at the same time, under Mary's dominion.  She has dominion and power over all creation."


"Jesus is King of Justice.  Mary is Queen of Mercy."


"Every prayer of Mary's is like an established law for our Lord.  She establishes the law by which God acts."


"Every prayer of Mary's is like an established law for our Lord obliging him to be merciful to everyone for whom she intercedes." 

: KiwiChristian  Mon Jan 01, 2018 - 21:18:53
the rosary contains TEN TIMES more prayers to MARY than to GOD.

A claim that is trivial, mathematically incorrect, and demonstrates a lack of understanding of Catholicism.

Mathematics:
"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women..." Not a prayer but a statements from scripture. However if you think that calling Mary, 'blessed among women' is a prayer to her, then the next statement "and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus' is a prayer to God.
So far then 50:50 Mary and God.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us now and at the hour of our death, Amen". Since protestants refuse the accept that "praying to Mary" is only asking her for her prayers, then by their own logic asking her for her prayers is not  "praying to Mary".

Before the 10 Hail Marys there is an Our Father -  a prayer to God
After the 10 Hail Marys there is the "Glory be..."

"Glory be to the Father," – a prayer of praise to God the Father
"and to the Son," – a prayer of praise to God the Son
"and to the Holy Spirit..." – a prayer of praise to God the Holy Spirit.

Thus we have 4 prayers to God and none to Mary.

Overall then, depending on how you count the "blesseds" of the Hail Mary there are more prayers to God than to Mary in the Rosary.  ::smile::

: KiwiChristian  Mon Jan 01, 2018 - 21:18:53
the rosary contains TEN TIMES more prayers to MARY than to GOD.

"For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them" ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X ON THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION Given at Rome in St. Peter's on the second day of February, 1904, in the first year of Our Pontificate. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html)

Answered in the opening posts. Please read them

: KiwiChristian  Mon Jan 01, 2018 - 21:18:53
Now, you catholics can play around with word-games like dulia and hyperdulia, etc. but sorry, worship IS worship.

Beans are beans
But there are cannellini beans, kidney beans, french beans, runner beans, lima beans, broad beans, adzuki beans, butter beans etc.

: KiwiChristian  Mon Jan 01, 2018 - 21:18:53

Definition of "worship" : Ardent devotion; adoration.

WORSHIP
Definition Acknowledgment of another's worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely adoratin (or the recognition of God's infinite perfection), prayer or the asking for divine help, and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God. Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God. (Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.)

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=37215 (http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=37215)

: KiwiChristian  Mon Jan 01, 2018 - 21:18:53


bishop strossmeyer (spelling?) said "we have made a Goddess out of mary"

of course, comments like these don't help!

"Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone." St. John Chrysostom

"All those who seek Mary's protection will be saved for all eternity." Pope Benedict XV


Pope Pius IX in 1854  "Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. " 

They don't help when you give no sources for these supposed "quotes".
Why not?
Are you afraid they will be exposed as fraudulent or extracted out of context like your other quotes.?

: KiwiChristian  Mon Jan 01, 2018 - 21:18:53

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary." Doesn't this sound like worship?

Hail! Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
Mary is the mother of Jesus who is Mercy, and Jesus is our life, our sweetness, and our hope.

To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.
To you do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
We (the banished children of Eve) are addressing Mary

Turn then, O most gracious advocate, your eyes of mercy towards us;
Mary (our gracious intercessor) is merciful as we are all called to be merciful

and after this our exile, (when we die)

show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Show us Jesus – Mary always points us to Jesus

O clement! O loving! O sweet Virgin Mary!
She is all of these

Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God,
Asking for her intercession
that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Let's have the whole prayer not pervert the truth by missing out the most important part

Winsome~Can you comment on Reply #5?

: RB  Tue Jan 02, 2018 - 07:31:27
Winsome~Can you comment on Reply #5?

I only saw it about an hour ago.

I'll come back to it later.

Hi AVZ

I have not read the "Glories of Mary" but I have located a copy on Google books.

Please can you give me a couple of examples of what you find objectionable, why you find them objectionable and the actual page number of the quotes. I'll then try and give you a response.

Thanks

: winsome  Tue Jan 02, 2018 - 09:35:35
Hi AVZ

I have not read the "Glories of Mary" but I have located a copy on Google books.

Please can you give me a couple of examples of what you find objectionable, why you find them objectionable and the actual page number of the quotes. I'll then try and give you a response.

Thanks

Everything in bold I find objectionable.
I have a digital copy of the book so the page numbers won't tally with yours.
All quotes come from the first chapters of the book.

: AVZ  Tue Jan 02, 2018 - 09:45:20
Everything in bold I find objectionable.
I have a digital copy of the book so the page numbers won't tally with yours.
All quotes come from the first chapters of the book.

Then pick one and tell me why you find it objectionable.

Objections to statements in following prayers underlined, my comments in blue.

A NIGHT PRAYER TO
OUR BLESSED MOTHER

Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o'er;
Before thy image I am kneeling once more
To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.

They are kneeling before an image of Mary.  Thanking her for her protection, not God's, and asking her, not God to keep evil away.

Many times have I fallen Mother dear;
Many graces neglected since last I knelt here;
Wilt thou not in pity, my own Mother Mild,
Ask Jesus to pardon the sins of thy child?

We cannot ask forgiveness of God through another, and expect to receive the same.  If I sin against you, I must confess to you, if I want your forgiveness.  Refusing to do so, will be refusing to humble myself before you, and ask for that which I need, which of course I will not receive if I do not do so.  How much more does this apply to our sins against God?  All sin is against God. 

It would be one thing, if because of circumstances beyond our control, the only way we could ask forgiveness was through another. But this is not the case.  Jesus has made it possible for each of us to approach God the Father directly, and receive forgiveness from the same in His precious and holy name.  Thus when we seek to obtain forgiveness from God through another than Christ, we will not receive the same, since God has made it possible for each of us to approach Him for the same through His Son Jesus Christ.  He didn't just make it possible, He payed the ultimate price to make it so.  It is an affront to God to seek forgiveness from Him from another than Christ, who sacrificed all for the same.

The old covenant days of needing another to be a go between for the forgiveness of our sins, are over.  Christ is the go between, and High Preist of the new covenant.  We can receive forgiveness through no other.

I am going to sleep now, day's work is done;
Its hours and its moments have passed one by one.
God Who will judge me, has counted them all;
He has numbered each grace, He has counted each fall;

In His book they are written against the last day.
Oh! Mother Ask Jesus to wash them away.
For one drop of His Blood for sinners was spilt,
Is sufficient to cleanse the world of its guilt.

She cannot do that for us.  We must do it for ourselves, or it will not happen.

And if er' the dawn I should draw my last breath;
The sleep I take be the long sleep of death;
Be near me Mother for dear Jesus' sake.
When at eternity shore my soul shall awake.

Amen.


THE PRAYER
A SALUTATION TO THE IMMACULATE.
(For the 150th Anniversary
of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)

O Immaculate Virgin Mary,
Mother of God and Our Mother:
Queen of Heaven and Earth,
Mediatrix of every grace!

The above is blasphemy.  Grace comes to us through Christ alone, who was and is God.  John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Mary was a sinful fallen human being like the rest of us.  The scriptures say nowhere that grace came, or comes by her.

Thou through whom dost shine the whole splendor
and magnificence of the Trinity!

More blasphemy.  In Christ alone is all the fulness of the Godhead.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

O Fount of Light!
O Light of all lights!
O shining Brightness of the Eternal Light!

More blasphemy.  Christ is the light of the world, and God is light in whome there is no darkness. 

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

I Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

O spotless Mirror of the Divine Majesty!
O Window upon the Divine Nature!
O Portal opening unto Eternity!
O blessed Gate of Heaven!
O Doorway thru which has shone the Light of men!
O Door of the Most High King!
O Horizon out of which is arisen the Sun of Justice!
O Promontory above the Ocean of Divinity!
O Watchtower before the blazing Majesty of God!
O Star of the Sea!
O Star of Heaven, who alone has crushed all the Stars
fallen from Heaven!

All blasphemy.  All attributes of Christ who is God, given to Mary.

O Morning Star, who has merited to usurp the name of the first fallen Star!
Thou who dost now gaze upon the wondrous abundance of the Divine Vision,
as the One closer to the Face of God than all creatures!
Rejoice O Thou, who has borne the Clarity of the Eternal Light!
Rejoice, O glorious and mystical City of God!
Rejoice, O Thou, who art more glorious than the Sun,
more beautiful than the Moon,
who dost shine more golden than the dawn,
more brightly than the stars.
Rejoice O Mother of the Lamb, the Light of the City of
God, who has made Thee shine forever with His own incomparable Light!
Rejoice, O Immaculate Virgin,
who dost hold the Light of God in the palms of Thy hands,
who dost behold the Child Jesus,
the Eternal Light,
in wondrous glory for all eternity!
Rejoice O Most Blessed Virgin,
for it is through Thee that all the Angels of Heaven
and all the Choirs of the Elect
art enlightened and filled with the Incomparable Radiance!

Absolute unequivocal blasphemy.

O Immaculate Mother,
lead us to Heaven,
inflame us with the Divine Love,
let shine upon us that same light of glory
which Thou dost behold forever!
Let us see What Thou dost see and gaze upon Him in Trinity,
that we may share the fullness of Thy Heart's joy forever!
Let it be!
Let it be!

Amen.

No, but Christ leads the way.  Those who look to Mary to lead them to heaven, will be lead straight to the lake of fire.  Please turn your eyes away from Mary, and unto Jesus.

PRAYER OF POPE PIUS XII
Consecration To The Blessed Virgin

Most Holy Virgin Mary,
tender Mother of all,
to fulfill the desires of the Sacred Heart
and the request of the Vicar of your Son on earth,
we consecrate ourselves
and our families
to your Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart,
O Queen of the Most Holy Rosary,
and we recommend to you,
all the people of our country
and all the world.

Please accept our consecration,
dearest Mother,
and use us as you wish
to accomplish your designs upon the world.

O Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary,
Queen of the Most Holy Rosary,
and Queen of the World, rule over us,
together with the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ, Our King.
Save us from the spreading flood of modern paganism;
kindle in our hearts and homes the love of purity,
the practice of a virtuous life,
an ardent zeal for souls,
and a desire to pray the rosary more faithfully.

We come with confidence to you,
O Throne of Grace and Mother of Fair Love.
Inflame us with the same Divine Fire
which has inflamed your own Sorrowful
and Immaculate Heart.
Make our hearts and homes your shrine,
and through us,
make the Heart of Jesus,
together with your rule,
triumphant in every heart and home.

I absolutely refuse the same.  I will have no other God's before Him alone who is God.  All who think to share the rule of their hearts and minds with any other than Jesus Christ, are lost souls.  Christ absolutely did not come to earth to establish a co-rulership of humanity with Mary.  This doctrine is straight from hell, and those who believe and practice according to it, will be lead directly to the lake of fire.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Amo,
From past posts I know that you come to these things with a hostile and hateful attitude to Catholics and the  Catholic Church that means you are just looking for something to complain about and have no intention of  trying to understand such things from a Catholic viewpoint. Were I to explain all these points it would make no difference to you. From past experience you would just ignore my responses and lay down another barrage of objections. You probably have them all lined up already.

You haven't responded to the points I have made already in this thread except for one meaningless comment. Why should I waste my time with this?

If anyone wants to see some responses, have a look at this thread where Amo was churning out the same anti-Catholic bile.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/what-catholic-doctrine-or-beliefs-are-in-error/ (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/what-catholic-doctrine-or-beliefs-are-in-error/)

: winsome  Fri Jan 05, 2018 - 13:18:20
Amo,
From past posts I know that you come to these things with a hostile and hateful attitude to Catholics and the  Catholic Church that means you are just looking for something to complain about and have no intention of  trying to understand such things from a Catholic viewpoint.

Again, you are attacking the person rather than what the person says.

: winsome  Fri Jan 05, 2018 - 13:18:20
Amo,
From past posts I know that you come to these things with a hostile and hateful attitude to Catholics and the  Catholic Church that means you are just looking for something to complain about and have no intention of  trying to understand such things from a Catholic viewpoint. Were I to explain all these points it would make no difference to you. From past experience you would just ignore my responses and lay down another barrage of objections. You probably have them all lined up already.

You haven't responded to the points I have made already in this thread except for one meaningless comment. Why should I waste my time with this?

If anyone wants to see some responses, have a look at this thread where Amo was churning out the same anti-Catholic bile.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/what-catholic-doctrine-or-beliefs-are-in-error/ (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/what-catholic-doctrine-or-beliefs-are-in-error/)

You won't get anything but criticism and discourse from this guy, anyone that disagrees with his views is repeatedly pounced upon. No fruit there. just division. 

: winsome  Fri Jan 05, 2018 - 13:18:20
Amo,
From past posts I know that you come to these things with a hostile and hateful attitude to Catholics and the  Catholic Church that means you are just looking for something to complain about and have no intention of  trying to understand such things from a Catholic viewpoint. Were I to explain all these points it would make no difference to you. From past experience you would just ignore my responses and lay down another barrage of objections. You probably have them all lined up already.

You haven't responded to the points I have made already in this thread except for one meaningless comment. Why should I waste my time with this?

If anyone wants to see some responses, have a look at this thread where Amo was churning out the same anti-Catholic bile.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/what-catholic-doctrine-or-beliefs-are-in-error/ (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/what-catholic-doctrine-or-beliefs-are-in-error/)

Yes I know, anyone who disagrees with Catholics and will actually tell them defending their own position as well, hates Catholics. All who disagree with and will not submit to Catholic teaching, hate Catholics. Their all anti-Catholic bigots. Never mind all the Marian prayers which so often apply attributes which belong only to God and our Savior Jesus Christ to Mary, all who bring this up as wrong only do it because they hate Catholics. They should all just shut up and accept that Catholics do no wrong in this or anything else, because thinking so just means you hate Catholics. All who will love Catholics must either agree with them, or remain silent if they do not, otherwise they hate Catholics. Yea, thats the ticket.

My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was beaten, tortured, spit upon, and crucified because He kept trying to tell those whom He loved the truth that they did not want to hear. He also told His followers that they should expect the same if they will pick up their crosses and follow Him. I don't hate you Winsome, I love you. You just think I hate you because you don't want to hear what I have to say because it is not what you want to hear. People who disagree do not have to hate each other, though they certainly may choose to do so, and so very often do.

Many RC's in the world do worship or venerate Mary.  Jesus deliberately played down her role in his life probably because He knew this would happen.

: Alan  Fri Jan 05, 2018 - 20:23:22

You won't get anything but criticism and discourse from this guy, anyone that disagrees with his views is repeatedly pounced upon. No fruit there. just division.

There is no fruit in pretending to agree when you don't in pursuit of a false unity. What fruit do you speak of? Some fruit is good, other fruits are forbidden.

: winsome  Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 13:26:20
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS FORUM THAT I HAVE TO MAKE A POST IN LITTLE BITS!!!!!

Do Catholics Worship Mary?
The answer to this depends on what is meant by "worship". In the modern sense of the word, the one normally used by Protestants, the answer is definitely NO because the meaning of the word has been drastically narrowed to mean something that is due to God alone.

However the word 'worship' has an older and more general meaning as I will explain in a moment. In that sense (and I emphasis that sense) the answer is yes.

Latria and Dulia
The official language of the Catholic Church is Latin, not English. From the earliest times it has maintained a distinction between the honour and reverence due to God alone and the lesser honour that can be given to creatures. The former is know as latria and is usually translated into English as Adoration. The latter is dulia and is normally translated into English as Veneration. Mary is given a special level of dulia known as hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia").

Continued. in next post.

catholic word games. worship is worship.

I mean, come on my friend:

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary." Doesn't this sound like worship?

The adoration of Mary is a rejection of the gospel by the Catholic Church.
God personally came down to earth in the form of Jesus, He walked with man and He made Himself directly available to man.
He said: "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I give you peace"

The Catholic Church has opened a direct attack on God's love and mercy.
They have made God the Father out to be someone who is too preoccupied to bother about us people, and they have made Jesus out to be somewhat indifferent and a bully.
We cannot or should not go to the Father or Jesus directly, imagine you catch them at a bad time. They may be busy with something else, or maybe they are not in a good mood.

No, we should go to Mary instead.
Then Mary can go to Jesus and soften Him up. After all Jesus can't refuse anything His mother asks from Him.
And then Jesus can go to the Father and perhaps convince Him to listen. After all the Father can't really refuse anything Jesus asks from Him.

So, it's kind of risky to go to Jesus or the Father if you want anything. They are not really there for you.
No, if you want results, then you should go to Mary. She is the one who listens to everybody and she is the one that can make things happen for you.

And if you are in doubt Mary has enough ammunition to make a case for you with Jesus, then you should also pray to the saints.
Surely if not only Mary but also a whole horde of saints land on an unwilling Jesus...well then He certainly has to cave in.

: AVZ  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 04:06:20
The adoration of Mary is a rejection of the gospel by the Catholic Church.
God personally came down to earth in the form of Jesus, He walked with man and He made Himself directly available to man.
He said: "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I give you peace"

The Catholic Church has opened a direct attack on God's love and mercy.
They have made God the Father out to be someone who is too preoccupied to bother about us people, and they have made Jesus out to be somewhat indifferent and a bully.
We cannot or should not go to the Father or Jesus directly, imagine you catch them at a bad time. They may be busy with something else, or maybe they are not in a good mood.

No, we should go to Mary instead.
Then Mary can go to Jesus and soften Him up. After all Jesus can't refuse anything His mother asks from Him.
And then Jesus can go to the Father and perhaps convince Him to listen. After all the Father can't really refuse anything Jesus asks from Him.

So, it's kind of risky to go to Jesus or the Father if you want anything. They are not really there for you.
No, if you want results, then you should go to Mary. She is the one who listens to everybody and she is the one that can make things happen for you.

And if you are in doubt Mary has enough ammunition to make a case for you with Jesus, then you should also pray to the saints.
Surely if not only Mary but also a whole horde of saints land on an unwilling Jesus...well then He certainly has to cave in.

Yes I always think its sad that so many RC's cant believe that we now have access directly to God through His Son. Why pray to dead fallible men and women when we dont need to(and when we are specifically told not to).

Its all very superstitious this praying to Mary and the saints. Making someone a 'saint' is entirely unbiblical as well.   

: Alan  Fri Jan 05, 2018 - 20:23:22

You won't get anything but criticism and discourse from this guy, anyone that disagrees with his views is repeatedly pounced upon. No fruit there. just division.

I remember having cut ands paste wars with Amo. He would cut and paste diatribes from questionable web sites accusing the Jesuits of everything under the sun. I retaliated by posting stuff from Jesuit web sites and the Catholic Encyclopaedia (and this was the days when you could make long posts without them crashing out). It was a total waste of time and server space.

: AVZ  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 04:06:20
The adoration of Mary is a rejection of the gospel by the Catholic Church.
God personally came down to earth in the form of Jesus, He walked with man and He made Himself directly available to man.
He said: "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I give you peace"

The Catholic Church has opened a direct attack on God's love and mercy.
They have made God the Father out to be someone who is too preoccupied to bother about us people, and they have made Jesus out to be somewhat indifferent and a bully.
We cannot or should not go to the Father or Jesus directly, imagine you catch them at a bad time. They may be busy with something else, or maybe they are not in a good mood.

No, we should go to Mary instead.
Then Mary can go to Jesus and soften Him up. After all Jesus can't refuse anything His mother asks from Him.
And then Jesus can go to the Father and perhaps convince Him to listen. After all the Father can't really refuse anything Jesus asks from Him.

So, it's kind of risky to go to Jesus or the Father if you want anything. They are not really there for you.
No, if you want results, then you should go to Mary. She is the one who listens to everybody and she is the one that can make things happen for you.

And if you are in doubt Mary has enough ammunition to make a case for you with Jesus, then you should also pray to the saints.
Surely if not only Mary but also a whole horde of saints land on an unwilling Jesus...well then He certainly has to cave in.

AVZ,

It seems you just want to attack Catholics.
You raised the Glories of Mary. In post #15 I suggested you picked just one of the issues you had and explain your objections. We could then discuss it.
No reply from you to that. Now you just launch into another attack.

You, Amo and chosenone have a pattern of just slagging off Catholics. No evidence is provided just assertions.

To you, Amo and chosenone I make two points:

1. The rules of this forum state: 1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual's belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say "The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence."

2. There is a maxim: That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Lest anyone thinks I am dodging Amo's unjustified assertions in post #16 I will take time to reply to one of them. 

: Amo  Fri Jan 05, 2018 - 10:17:55
Many times have I fallen Mother dear;
Many graces neglected since last I knelt here;
Wilt thou not in pity, my own Mother Mild,
Ask Jesus to pardon the sins of thy child?"

We cannot ask forgiveness of God through another, and expect to receive the same.  If I sin against you, I must confess to you, if I want your forgiveness.  Refusing to do so, will be refusing to humble myself before you, and ask for that which I need, which of course I will not receive if I do not do so.  How much more does this apply to our sins against God?  All sin is against God. 

It would be one thing, if because of circumstances beyond our control, the only way we could ask forgiveness was through another. But this is not the case.  Jesus has made it possible for each of us to approach God the Father directly, and receive forgiveness from the same in His precious and holy name.  Thus when we seek to obtain forgiveness from God through another than Christ, we will not receive the same, since God has made it possible for each of us to approach Him for the same through His Son Jesus Christ.  He didn't just make it possible, He payed the ultimate price to make it so.  It is an affront to God to seek forgiveness from Him from another than Christ, who sacrificed all for the same.

The old covenant days of needing another to be a go between for the forgiveness of our sins, are over.  Christ is the go between, and High Preist of the new covenant.  We can receive forgiveness through no other

This suffers from the Protestant flaw in thinking in either/or terms.
We need to think in both/and terms.

It's not either Jesus or Mary (or someone else). It can be both Jesus and Mary (or someone else).

In the NT John instructs us to pray for forgiveness for others:
And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him. If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.(1John 5:15-16)

So does James:
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. (James 5:14-16)

Of course we should ask God directly for forgiveness but there is no reason why we should not also ask others to interceded for us.

: Amo  Fri Jan 05, 2018 - 10:17:55
It is an affront to God to seek forgiveness from Him from another than Christ

Apart from Amo offering no evidence for this claim, that is not happening.
The request is : "Ask Jesus to pardon the sins of thy child"

: Amo  Fri Jan 05, 2018 - 10:17:55
The old covenant days of needing another to be a go between for the forgiveness of our sins, are over.  Christ is the go between, and High Preist of the new covenant.  We can receive forgiveness through no other.

The Old Covenant never needed a go between to be forgiven their sins. 
People could always approach God directly.
Jesus himself contradicts Amo's assertion.

"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; (Lk 18:10-14).

: winsome  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 06:32:50
Of course we should ask God directly for forgiveness but there is no reason why we should not also ask others to interceded for us.

What others?  Intercede how?  There is only one intercessor and that is Christ.

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time (1 Tim 2:5-6).

: winsome  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 06:12:05
AVZ,

It seems you just want to attack Catholics.
You raised the Glories of Mary. In post #15 I suggested you picked just one of the issues you had and explain your objections. We could then discuss it.
No reply from you to that. Now you just launch into another attack.

You, Amo and chosenone have a pattern of just slagging off Catholics. No evidence is provided just assertions.

To you, Amo and chosenone I make two points:

1. The rules of this forum state: 1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual's belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say "The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence."

2. There is a maxim: That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

You want objective evidence?
Same book: and may I remind you it bears the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat of the Catholic Church.


"Do not tell me that you (Mary) are unable to help me, because I know you are all-powerful and can obtain from God whatever you ask Him. And if you say you cannot help me, then tell me to whom I can go for help."
Comment: In other words, Mary must help and Mary can't then the person who prays it at a loss who else to pray to.

"You know that your son, Jesus Christ, was not content himself with being our perpetual advocate with the Eternal Father. He also wanted you to act as our advocate to obtain divine mercy for us."
Comment: Jesus apparently didn't want to do the job of being our advocate by Himself. Mary is our advocate together with Him.

Saint Ephrem says to Mary: "You are the only advocate of sinners and the helpless."
Comment: Apparently the above is also not correct. Mary is in fact the ONLY advocate of sinners.

"Before Mary," says the saint, "there was nobody who dared stay God's hand. But now, whenever God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she restrains her son's hand and withholds him from punishing."
Comment: See, Jesus is a bully. He punishes people. Fortunately we have Mary to whistle Him back.

Nevertheless, were it possible for Lucifer to humiliate himself enough to ask Mary for her protection, she would have the power and mercy to obtain his pardon and salvation from God.
Comment: Mary is so powerful, she could even get Satan himself off the hook.

"Every prayer of Mary's is like an established law for our Lord.  She establishes the law by which God acts."
Comment: None needed I guess.

"Every prayer of Mary's is like an established law for our Lord obliging him to be merciful to everyone for whom she intercedes."
Comment: not required


Got a few new ones for you:


"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."
Comment: Not really needed I suppose. If you don't pray to Mary...you are damned.

"Nothing resists your (Mary's) power. For God the Father looks upon your glory as if it were His own. And God the Son, taking delight in glorifying you, grants your every petition as if He were paying a debt."
Comment: Mary's position in heaven is equal to that of the Father and the Son. Both are unable to resist her power.

"St. Bernard asks why the Church calls Mary the Queen of Mercy. And his answer is: "Because we believe that she throws open the abyss of God's mercies to anyone she pleases, when she pleases, and as she pleases. Hence, there are no sinners who will be lost --- no matter how great their crimes --- when this most holy Lady intercedes for them."
Comment: As is clear from this quote, Mary is in charge and she holds the cards.

True, Jesus chose to be alone in dying for the redemption of human beings, as Isaiah foretold: "The wine press I have trodden alone" (Is. 63:3). But when He saw Mary's burning desire to help in human redemption, He (Jesus) so arranged matters that she (Mary) should cooperate in our redemption by the offering and sacrifice of her Son's life, and in this way become the Mother of our souls.
Comment: From this quote is becomes very clear that the Catholic church holds that Mary is our co-redemptrix, and our salvation was a work provided by BOTH Jesus and Mary.


Let me be clear, I do not have this from a secular book or some non-Catholic comment. I have this from a book printed by the Catholic Press, approved by the Vatican.
It bears the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat. This is a writing that is printed and distributed by your own church!!!

So please tell me, how can something that is produced by your own church be an attack on your own church?
You say that I "have a pattern of just slagging off Catholics. No evidence is provided just assertions."
But how can that be? I post excerpts from a book your church distributes, and you call that "slagging off Catholics"?
Is your church printing material that slags off itself???
Nothing I posted above is an assertion, you can find each quote in the book...hence evidence is provided.

: 4WD  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 07:09:40
What others? 

See post #28

: 4WD  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 07:09:40
Intercede how? 

By praying

: 4WD  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 07:09:40
What others?  Intercede how?  There is only one intercessor and that is Christ.

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time (1 Tim 2:5-6).

That says mediator not intercessor.

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. (Heb 8:6)

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant,...(Heb 9:15)

and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, (Heb 12:24)

: AVZ  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 08:02:15
You want objective evidence?
Same book: and may I remind you it bears the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat of the Catholic Church.


"Do not tell me that you (Mary) are unable to help me, because I know you are all-powerful and can obtain from God whatever you ask Him. And if you say you cannot help me, then tell me to whom I can go for help."
Comment: In other words, Mary must help and Mary can't then the person who prays it at a loss who else to pray to.

"You know that your son, Jesus Christ, was not content himself with being our perpetual advocate with the Eternal Father. He also wanted you to act as our advocate to obtain divine mercy for us."
Comment: Jesus apparently didn't want to do the job of being our advocate by Himself. Mary is our advocate together with Him.

Saint Ephrem says to Mary: "You are the only advocate of sinners and the helpless."
Comment: Apparently the above is also not correct. Mary is in fact the ONLY advocate of sinners.

"Before Mary," says the saint, "there was nobody who dared stay God's hand. But now, whenever God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she restrains her son's hand and withholds him from punishing."
Comment: See, Jesus is a bully. He punishes people. Fortunately we have Mary to whistle Him back.

Nevertheless, were it possible for Lucifer to humiliate himself enough to ask Mary for her protection, she would have the power and mercy to obtain his pardon and salvation from God.
Comment: Mary is so powerful, she could even get Satan himself off the hook.

"Every prayer of Mary's is like an established law for our Lord.  She establishes the law by which God acts."
Comment: None needed I guess.

"Every prayer of Mary's is like an established law for our Lord obliging him to be merciful to everyone for whom she intercedes."
Comment: not required


Got a few new ones for you:


"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."
Comment: Not really needed I suppose. If you don't pray to Mary...you are damned.

"Nothing resists your (Mary's) power. For God the Father looks upon your glory as if it were His own. And God the Son, taking delight in glorifying you, grants your every petition as if He were paying a debt."
Comment: Mary's position in heaven is equal to that of the Father and the Son. Both are unable to resist her power.

"St. Bernard asks why the Church calls Mary the Queen of Mercy. And his answer is: "Because we believe that she throws open the abyss of God's mercies to anyone she pleases, when she pleases, and as she pleases. Hence, there are no sinners who will be lost --- no matter how great their crimes --- when this most holy Lady intercedes for them."
Comment: As is clear from this quote, Mary is in charge and she holds the cards.

True, Jesus chose to be alone in dying for the redemption of human beings, as Isaiah foretold: "The wine press I have trodden alone" (Is. 63:3). But when He saw Mary's burning desire to help in human redemption, He (Jesus) so arranged matters that she (Mary) should cooperate in our redemption by the offering and sacrifice of her Son's life, and in this way become the Mother of our souls.
Comment: From this quote is becomes very clear that the Catholic church holds that Mary is our co-redemptrix, and our salvation was a work provided by BOTH Jesus and Mary.


Let me be clear, I do not have this from a secular book or some non-Catholic comment. I have this from a book printed by the Catholic Press, approved by the Vatican.
It bears the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat. This is a writing that is printed and distributed by your own church!!!

So please tell me, how can something that is produced by your own church be an attack on your own church?
You say that I "have a pattern of just slagging off Catholics. No evidence is provided just assertions."
But how can that be? I post excerpts from a book your church distributes, and you call that "slagging off Catholics"?
Is your church printing material that slags off itself???
Nothing I posted above is an assertion, you can find each quote in the book...hence evidence is provided.

I SAID

: winsome  Tue Jan 02, 2018 - 09:49:02
Then pick one and tell me why you find it objectionable.

What don't you understand about the word ONE?

What don't you understand about "tell me why you find it objectionable."?

(And please tell me, at least, which chapter from the 'Glories of Mary' you are quoting from)

: AVZ  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 08:02:15

Got a few new ones for you:

Of course you have, because you are not interested in any replies - just Catholic bashing.

As I said to Amo, you have "no intention of  trying to understand such things from a Catholic viewpoint. Were I to explain all these points it would make no difference to you. From past experience you would just ignore my responses and lay down another barrage of objections. You probably have them all lined up already."

Same old same old. All us ignorant people who won't agree with or submit to Roman Catholicism's "superior" teachings are ignorant, bigoted, Catholic bashing, Catholic haters. Supplying one proof after another of our contentions from their own writings and prayers falls upon deaf ears, because we only do so because we are already Catholic hating bigots and bashers. They say, tell us your objections, then when you tell them they ignore them, and ask us what we don't understand about their request to tell them our objections. Please do tell winsome, what would be an acceptable way for us to tell you our objections, which you have requested. Perhaps we didn't understand your specifications regarding doing so, which is understandable since you did not tell us what they are.

: Amo  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 10:58:15
Same old same old. All us ignorant people who won't agree with or submit to Roman Catholicism's "superior" teachings are ignorant, bigoted, Catholic bashing, Catholic haters. Supplying one proof after another of our contentions from their own writings and prayers falls upon deaf ears, because we only do so because we are already Catholic hating bigots and bashers. They say, tell us your objections, then when you tell them they ignore them, and ask us what we don't understand about their request to tell them our objections. Please do tell winsome, what would be an acceptable way for us to tell you our objections, which you have requested. Perhaps we didn't understand your specifications regarding doing so, which is understandable since you did not tell us what they are.

Amo, you haven't provided any proofs - just assertions (= opinions)

I took the trouble to debunk one of them and you don't like it. Tough!

Mary gets too much attention.  Just like Ellen G. White.

: Amo  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 10:58:15Please do tell winsome, what would be an acceptable way for us to tell you our objections, which you have requested.

An acceptable way would be to conform to the GraceCentered rules

1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual's belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say "The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence."

Or do you think that's just a Catholic being unreasonable?

I would add that proper references to sources of the supposed evidence should also be supplied.

: Texas Conservative  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 12:29:58
Mary gets too much attention.  Just like Ellen G. White.

Really?

Did Ellen G White give birth to our Saviour?

: winsome  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 12:32:47
Really?

Did Ellen G White give birth to our Saviour?

You know the answer to that.  Mary gets too much even though she carried Jesus.  She was a sinner, had additional children.  She deserves respect, but not adoration.  Just like apostles deserve respect but not adoration.

Ellen G. White, I have no respect for.

: Texas Conservative  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 12:39:13
You know the answer to that.  Mary gets too much even though she carried Jesus.  She was a sinner, had additional children. 

Ah! Diversions from the topic. Count me out on that.

: Texas Conservative  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 12:39:13
She deserves respect, but not adoration.  Just like apostles deserve respect but not adoration.

Ellen G. White, I have no respect for.

The Catholic Church does NOT teach adoration of Mary.

As I wrote in the OP
Latria and Dulia
The official language of the Catholic Church is Latin, not English. From the earliest times it has maintained a distinction between the honour and reverence due to God alone and the lesser honour that can be given to creatures. The former is know as latria and is usually translated into English as Adoration. The latter is dulia and is normally translated into English as Veneration. Mary is given a special level of dulia known as hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia").

: winsome  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 09:46:46
That says mediator not intercessor.

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. (Heb 8:6)

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant,...(Heb 9:15)

and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, (Heb 12:24)

1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator [Gr - μεσίτης] also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


G3316
μεσίτης
mesitēs
mes-ee'-tace
From G3319; a go between, that is, (simply) an internunciator, or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor): - mediator.

: 4WD  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 12:50:56
1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator [Gr - μεσίτης] also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


G3316
μεσίτης
mesitēs
mes-ee'-tace
From G3319; a go between, that is, (simply) an internunciator, or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor): - mediator.

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. (Heb 8:6)

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant,...(Heb 9:15)

and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, (Heb 12:24) 


Added:
If we are going to play Strong and word games:

26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Jn 14:26)

Some translations say Advocate instead of Counselor. But either was it's Strong G3875


G3875
par-ak'-lay-tos
An intercessor, consoler:—advocate, comforter.

So Jesus is not the sole Intercessor

: winsome  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 12:53:29Added:
If we are going to play Strong and word games:

26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Jn 14:26)

That was spoken strictly to the 12, not to anyone else.  But even so, I am not sure what point you are trying to make.  The Holy Spirit is indeed what Jesus proclaims there.  And there certainly is nothing there about Mary or even the Apostles being intercessors, counselors, mediators or what have you.

: 4WD  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 13:20:50
That was spoken strictly to the 12, not to anyone else.  But even so, I am not sure what point you are trying to make.  The Holy Spirit is indeed what Jesus proclaims there.  And there certainly is nothing there about Mary or even the Apostles being intercessors, counselors, mediators or what have you.

It doesn't matter who it was spoken to. Jesus was declaring the Holy Spirit is an intercessor. So we have two intercessors - Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

You claim that Jesus is the only intercessor based on 1Tim 2:5-6, claiming that one meaning of mediator is intercessor.

I pointed out that Jesus, as a mediator, is mediator of the new covenant not mediator meaning intercessor. Though he is an intercessor.

When we pray to God on someone's behalf we are all intercessors. Or you could say that, as part of Christ's body, we share in his intercession. Whichever way you play around with it praying to God for someone else is interceding for them.

: Texas Conservative  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 12:29:58
Mary gets too much attention.  Just like Ellen G. White.

If or when people come to the SDA board and bring accusations against SDA's and EGW, I don't just accuse them all of being bigoted, bashing, EGW or SDA haters. I examine their accusations or the quotes they supply and present a rebuttal. Understanding that personal accusations of ignorance or bigotry are not arguments and prove nothing.

: winsome  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 12:30:37
An acceptable way would be to conform to the GraceCentered rules

1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual's belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say "The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence."

Or do you think that's just a Catholic being unreasonable?

I would add that proper references to sources of the supposed evidence should also be supplied.

How are people supposed to state their objections at your request, when their objections will be deemed a negative attack upon you, which you will declare is against the rules? I found all the prayers I quoted on Marian or Catholic web sites. If quoting Catholic prayers is not considered evidence to you, then what is? I could find and quote many more if you like and provide the links. Would this be acceptable to you?

: Amo  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 16:57:38
How are people supposed to state their objections at your request, when their objections will be deemed a negative attack upon you, which you will declare is against the rules? I found all the prayers I quoted on Marian or Catholic web sites. If quoting Catholic prayers is not considered evidence to you, then what is? I could find and quote many more if you like and provide the links. Would this be acceptable to you?

If you find that keeping to the rules of this site too irksome I suggest you complain to the owner.

: winsome  Sat Jan 06, 2018 - 15:01:26When we pray to God on someone's behalf we are all intercessors. Or you could say that, as part of Christ's body, we share in his intercession. Whichever way you play around with it praying to God for someone else is interceding for them.

Winsome, the issue here is not about praying to God for someone else.  We are told in the NT to do that.  The issue here is praying to someone other than God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for anything. We should never ever do that. I am not suggesting here that you or anyone else does that, but that is the issue here.  It is one thing to express recognition and honor for Mary the mother of Jesus.  It is something altogether different, and absolutely wrong, to worship her and pray to her.  I am not saying here that you do, but it certainly would appear that the Catholic Church does indeed do that.  If not, it seems to come very close to that.

There seems to be a view among many Protestants that Catholics are obsessed with Mary at the expense of Jesus. This is not true.

Earlier in this thread Amo raised issues with a prayer containing these lines:
Many times have I fallen Mother dear;
Many graces neglected since last I knelt here;
Wilt thou not in pity, my own Mother Mild,
Ask Jesus to pardon the sins of thy child?

See reply #16 for Amo's comments and reply #28 for my response - particularly with regards to the line I have emboldened..

I have just returned from Mass this morning and I would like to add a few more comments. The implications seem to be that Catholics turn to Mary rather than Jesus to have their sins forgiven. This is untrue.
Firstly this is not a liturgical prayer.
Secondly, although it appears on many web sites, I have never heard of it before. I suggest that is very far from the norm for Catholics to pray this, although I find nothing objectionable in it.

What is the norm for Catholics is what we pray in liturgical settings. These are prayers provided by the Church, the main liturgy being the Mass. Catholics are obliged to attend Mass on Sundays, so what we pray at Mass is a good representation of Catholic prayer in this matter. The following is from a typical Sunday Mass

Near the beginning of the Mass we have the "penitential rite"

Priest:
Brethren (brothers and sisters), let us acknowledge our sins,
and so prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries.

Congregation:
I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault,
through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

Priest:
May almighty God have mercy on us,
forgive us our sins,
and bring us to everlasting life.
Congregation: Amen.

Priest:  Lord, have mercy.
Congregation: Lord, have mercy.
Priest:  Christ, have mercy.
Congregation: Christ, have mercy.
Priest:  Lord, have mercy.
Congregation: Lord, have mercy.


Later we say the Lord's prayer which includes the line: forgive us our trespasses.

The focus is on God and asking God to have mercy on us and forgive us our sins (cf Lk. 18:13)
We (additionally) ask others to pray for us as well.

: winsome  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 05:31:28There seems to be a view among many Protestants that Catholics are obsessed with Mary at the expense of Jesus. This is not true.

While I would charge that Catholics are obsessed with Mary at the expense of Jesus, I would certainly charge that Catholics are obsessed with Mary beyond that which is scripturally appropriate.

: 4WD  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 05:39:30
While I would charge that Catholics are obsessed with Mary at the expense of Jesus, I would certainly charge that Catholics are obsessed with Mary beyond that which is scripturally appropriate.

I would charge that many Protestants have a un-scriptural view of Mary to the extent of virtually dismissing her relevance apart from God using her as a surrogate mother to produce Jesus.But I think that's too big a topic for this thread.

: 4WD  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 05:24:30
Winsome, the issue here is not about praying to God for someone else.  We are told in the NT to do that.  The issue here is praying to someone other than God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for anything. We should never ever do that.

The issue is really about the meaning of the word 'pray'. We can pray to Mary in one meaning of the word and pray only to God in another meaning of the word.

There are two different Greek words involved here. The Orthodox (and scripture) use one for 'praying' to God and the other for 'praying' to people.

: 4WD  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 05:24:30
I am not suggesting here that you or anyone else does that, but that is the issue here.  It is one thing to express recognition and honor for Mary the mother of Jesus.  It is something altogether different, and absolutely wrong, to worship her and pray to her.  I am not saying here that you do, but it certainly would appear that the Catholic Church does indeed do that.  If not, it seems to come very close to that.

It is neither wrong to pray to, nor to worship, Mary as long as we are very clear regarding the meaning of those words in relation to God and Mary. And the Catholic Church is clear on the different usages of those words - as I explained in the OP regarding worship.

: winsome  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 05:45:41

: 4WDWhile I would charge that Catholics are obsessed with Mary at the expense of Jesus, I would certainly charge that Catholics are obsessed with Mary beyond that which is scripturally appropriate.

I would charge that many Protestants have a un-scriptural view of Mary to the extent of virtually dismissing her relevance apart from God using her as a surrogate mother to produce Jesus.But I think that's too big a topic for this thread.

Winsome,
First I meant to say, "While I wouldn't charge that..."  But perhaps you sensed that anyway.  You may be correct about that being too big a topic for this thread, but again maybe not.  It certainly has been discussed here in the past.  Interestingly, I think the relevance attributed to Mary by the Catholic Church comes because of the false doctrine of original sin that is held by the Catholic Church and others.  If you have followed any of my postings here you will know that I absolutely abhor the false doctrine of original sin and the even worse false doctrine of Total depravity.  Because of that false belief, the Catholic Church has presented the need for the, again false, doctrine of the immaculate conception.  Having done that it is almost necessary to extend the adulation of Mary beyond what is scripturally presented.  It is just one more instance of the really tragic blunders that result from the false doctrine of original sin.  And I do believe that it is that adulation being extended beyond that scripturally presented that leads to much of the confusion concerning Mary and Catholics and gives rise to the question in the OP.

: 4WD  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 06:13:25
I would charge that many Protestants have a un-scriptural view of Mary to the extent of virtually dismissing her relevance apart from God using her as a surrogate mother to produce Jesus.But I think that's too big a topic for this thread.Winsome,
First I meant to say, "While I wouldn't charge that..."  But perhaps you sensed that anyway.  You may be correct about that being too big a topic for this thread, but again maybe not.  It certainly has been discussed here in the past.  Interestingly, I think the relevance attributed to Mary by the Catholic Church comes because of the false doctrine of original sin that is held by the Catholic Church and others.  If you have followed any of my postings here you will know that I absolutely abhor the false doctrine of original sin and the even worse false doctrine of Total depravity.  Because of that false belief, the Catholic Church has presented the need for the, again false, doctrine of the immaculate conception.  Having done that it is almost necessary to extend the adulation of Mary beyond what is scripturally presented.  It is just one more instance of the really tragic blunders that result from the false doctrine of original sin.  And I do believe that it is that adulation being extended beyond that scripturally presented that leads to much of the confusion concerning Mary and Catholics and gives rise to the question in the OP.

As you might expect I disagree with you concerning original sin (and it's consequences). But that's another big topic.

: winsome  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 06:24:00As you might expect I disagree with you concerning original sin (and it's consequences). But that's another big topic.

Yes.

This thread is not about praying to Mary. It is about the question if Catholics worship Mary.
I have posted fragments from a book that is endorsed and approved by the Catholic church that clearly points in the following direction:

- Mary has absorbed all the grace and mercy from God the Father and Jesus.
- Mary is the distributor of all graces to humankind
- Mary demands prayer. Those who do not pray to her are doomed.
- Mary is instrumental in salvation
- The Father and Jesus are variably approachable, only Mary listens to our prayers for certain
- Mary's wishes are law to the Father and Jesus
- Mary's holds the power to swing the emotions of the Father and Jesus
- Salvation of humankind has been a joint venture achievement of both Jesus and Mary

Don't get this wrong. The quotes from this book are approved by the Catholic church, and it bears the stamp of Nihil Obstat...which means that the Catholic church has no objection towards the contents of the book.
What I am posting here is what the Catholic church promotes and teaches.

Only the quote: "I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity." says it all.
If you do not pray to Mary...you go to hell. That's the message of the Catholic church!

Now we can get wound up in discussions whether praying to Mary is scriptural or not, but that is totally irrelevant.
The teaching of the Catholic church is, if you do not pray to Mary you cannot be saved and you will go to hell.

So salvation depends on Mary, you cannot bypass her.
Mary is your advocate, your intercessor and in the end she decides who get saved and who does not.

If you do not believe me, buy the book, notice the stamp of approval fro the Vatican and read it for yourself.

: AVZ  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 06:32:19
This thread is not about praying to Mary. It is about the question if Catholics worship Mary.
I have posted fragments from a book that is endorsed and approved by the Catholic church that clearly points in the following direction:

- Mary has absorbed all the grace and mercy from God the Father and Jesus.
- Mary is the distributor of all graces to humankind
- Mary demands prayer. Those who do not pray to her are doomed.
- Mary is instrumental in salvation
- The Father and Jesus are variably approachable, only Mary listens to our prayers for certain
- Mary's wishes are law to the Father and Jesus
- Mary's holds the power to swing the emotions of the Father and Jesus
- Salvation of humankind has been a joint venture achievement of both Jesus and Mary

Don't get this wrong. The quotes from this book are approved by the Catholic church, and it bears the stamp of Nihil Obstat...which means that the Catholic church has no objection towards the contents of the book.
What I am posting here is what the Catholic church promotes and teaches.

Only the quote: "I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity." says it all.
If you do not pray to Mary...you go to hell. That's the message of the Catholic church!

Now we can get wound up in discussions whether praying to Mary is scriptural or not, but that is totally irrelevant.
The teaching of the Catholic church is, if you do not pray to Mary you cannot be saved and you will go to hell.

So salvation depends on Mary, you cannot bypass her.
Mary is your advocate, your intercessor and in the end she decides who get saved and who does not.

If you do not believe me, buy the book, notice the stamp of approval fro the Vatican and read it for yourself.

AVZ,
You seem to like posting this stuff but unwilling to discuss it.

I asked you, and have repeated the request to pick ONE quote from the Glories of Mary that you complained out in reply#5, give me the page number and  and explain what you find objectional about it.

You have clearly demonstrated you are not interested in discussion just in Catholic bashing.

: winsome  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 06:46:46
AVZ,
You seem to like posting this stuff but unwilling to discuss it.

I asked you, and have repeated the request to pick ONE quote from the Glories of Mary that you complained out in reply#5, give me the page number and  and explain what you find objectional about it.

You have clearly demonstrated you are not interested in discussion just in Catholic bashing.

I don't find just one thing objectionable...I find everything I read in the book objectionable.

And why do you call this Catholic bashing? All I do is quote from a book that is printed by the Catholic press.
Maybe you should call the Vatican and tell them to stop print things that are inconvenient to you.

: AVZ  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 08:07:09
I don't find just one thing objectionable...I find everything I read in the book objectionable.

And why do you call this Catholic bashing? All I do is quote from a book that is printed by the Catholic press.
Maybe you should call the Vatican and tell them to stop print things that are inconvenient to you.

Why so evasive AVZ?

If you actually have this book as you claim then it should be easy to give me one quotation and say where it is in the book, and give me your objections.

Methinks you have just picked up this stuff from an anti-Catholic web site and are just indulging Catholic bashing with no intention of a discussion on what you claim it says.

You claim it is printed by Catholic press.

You claim it has a nihil obstat.

You claim it has an imprimatur.

You claim it is approved by the Vatican

But you seem to be unwilling to give any details.

: winsome  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 08:15:54
Why so evasive AVZ?

If you actually have this book as you claim then it should be easy to give me one quotation and say where it is in the book, and give me your objections.

Methinks you have just picked up this stuff from an anti-Catholic web site and are just indulging Catholic bashing with no intention of a discussion on what you claim it says.

You claim it is printed by Catholic press.

You claim it has a nihil obstat.

You claim it has an imprimatur.

You claim it is approved by the Vatican

But you seem to be unwilling to give any details.

Here you go:

http://www.liguori.org/the-glories-of-mary.html

Check here as well
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary9c.htm

and here:
http://www.marys-touch.com/Glories/contents.htm

and here you can download the book:
http://www.themostholyrosary.com/catholic-books-virgin-mary.htm

and here:
https://archive.org/stream/thegloriesofmary00liguuoft/thegloriesofmary00liguuoft_djvu.txt

or you can get it here
https://www.amazon.com/Glories-Alfonso-Maria-Saint-Liguori/dp/0899423604

clear huh? What a simple google search can do...

AVZ,
I didn't ask you for a copy of the "Glories of Mary". I told you already that I had located one on Google Books.

As you have continually failed to select a quote that you object to I will take this one that you quoted.

"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."

As I expected it is not all that it seems.

Firstly the text I am using comes from the version on Google Books:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5apnX6B1TwsC&pg=PA11&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5apnX6B1TwsC&pg=PA11&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false)

On one of the title pages it says:
This new and improved translation of "The Glories of Mary," having been duly examined, is hereby approved of.
JOHN Archbishop of New York
New York, Jan 21st 1852

On the Preface page it says:
The edition of the Glories of Mary now presented to the Catholic public of America is the first complete translation of the work ever made into the English language We trust that it will be found to retain the spirit of the learned and saintly author and that it will be welcomed by the faithful in this country with the same delight which it has university called forth in Catholic Europe.

So we can be reasonably sure this is an approved version and is faithful to the original.


It is in Chapter 1, Section 2 commentary on the prayer Salve Regina (Hail Holy Queen)

Firstly the quote is not a comment by Ligouri himself, but he is quoting St. Bridget.

Secondly the quote actually says:
"Therefore he shall be miserable and forever miserable in another life, who in this being able, does not have recourse to me, who am so compassionate to all, and so earnestly desire to aid sinners."

So the true quote does NOT say "In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation". It's not in the text

It does NOT say (as you claimed) "If you do not pray to Mary...you go to hell. That's the message of the Catholic church!"

You can look it up yourself. I gave you the link - page 34/35

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/12/08/pope_francis_prayer_to_mary_on_the_immaculate_conception/1353716

Pope Francis' prayer to Mary on the Immaculate Conception

Here is the full translated text of the prayer:

Immaculate Mother,

For the fifth time I come to your feet as Bishop of Rome,
to pay you homage on behalf of all the inhabitants of this city.

We want to thank you for the constant care
with which you accompany us on our journey,
the journey of families, parishes, religious communities;
the journey of those who daily, and sometimes with difficulty,
pass through Rome on their way to work;
the journey of the sick, the elderly, the poor,
the journey of so many people who immigrated here from places where there is war and hunger.

Thank you, because as soon as we turn our thoughts,
or a fleeting glance, towards you,
or recite a quick Hail Mary,
we feel your maternal presence, tender and strong.

O Mother, help this city develop the "antibodies" it needs
to combat some of the viruses of our times:
the indifference that says: "It's not my business";
the unsociable behavior that despises the common good;
the fear of the foreigner and those who are different from us;
the conformism that disguises itself as transgression;
the hypocrisy that accuses others while doing the same things;
the resignation to environmental and ethical degradation;
the exploitation of so many men and women.

Help us to reject these and other viruses
with the antibodies that come from the Gospel.
Let us make it a good habit
to read a passage from the Gospel every day
and, following your example, to keep the Word of God in our hearts,
so that, like a good seed, it may fruit in our lives.

Immaculate Virgin,

175 years ago, not far from here,
in the church of Sant'Andrea delle Fratte,
you touched the heart of Alphonse Ratisbonne, who at that moment,
from being an atheist and enemy of the Church, became a Christian.

You revealed yourself to him as a Mother of grace and mercy.
Grant that we too, especially in times of trial and temptation,
may fix our gaze on your open hands,
hands that allow the Lord's graces to fall upon the earth.
Help us to rid ourselves of all pride and arrogance,
and to recognize ourselves for what we really are:
small and poor sinners, but always your children.

So, let us place our hand in yours
And allow ourselves to be led back to Jesus, our Brother and Savior,
and to our Heavenly Father, who never tires of waiting for us
and forgiving us when we return to Him.

Thank you, Mother, for always listening to us!
Bless the Church that is in Rome.
Bless this City and the whole world.

Amen.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/prayer?s=t

Prayer

noun

1. a devout petition to God or an object of worship.

2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.

3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.

4. a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying :
the Lord's Prayer.

5. prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer.

6. that which is prayed for.

7. a petition; entreaty.

Strange how we all think we are doing one thing, but Winsome insists that we are doing another. Seems to be some kind of breakdown in communication.

: Amo  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 10:36:33
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/12/08/pope_francis_prayer_to_mary_on_the_immaculate_conception/1353716 (http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/12/08/pope_francis_prayer_to_mary_on_the_immaculate_conception/1353716)

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/prayer?s=t (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/prayer?s=t)

And your point is .... what?

: Amo  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 10:42:25
Strange how we all think we are doing one thing, but Winsome insists that we are doing another. Seems to be some kind of breakdown in communication.

What?  ???

http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/english3/p02775.htm

HOLY MARY, MOTHER OF GOD
(By Pope Benedict XVI:
Deus Caritas Est [42])


Mary, Virgin and Mother,
shows us what love is and whence it draws its origin
and its constantly renewed power.
To her we entrust the Church and her mission in the service of love:

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
you have given the world its true light,
Jesus, your Son - the Son of God.
You abandoned yourself completely
to God's call and this became a wellspring
of the goodness which flows forth from him.
Show us Jesus. Lead us to him.
Teach us to know and love him,
so that we too can become capable of true love
and be fountains of living water
in the midst of a thirsting world.

: Amo  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 10:48:47
http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/english3/p02775.htm (http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/english3/p02775.htm)

And your point is .... what?

: Amo  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 10:36:33

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/prayer?s=t (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/prayer?s=t)

From the above link that Amo gave for a definition of prayer - but a bit he missed out.

2. a similar personal communication that does not involve adoration, addressed to beings venerated as being closely associated with a deity, such as angels or saints

: winsome  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 10:52:08
And your point is .... what?

http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/marian.htm

The point is, the link provided is filled with a great many Marian prayers. In which it can be seen that Catholics pray to Mary, they don't just ask her to pray for them. Prayer is an act of worship. This is where we apparently do not agree. Do you think prayer is an act of worship?

: Amo  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 10:59:13
http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/marian.htm (http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/marian.htm)

The point is, the link provided is filled with a great many Marian prayers. In which it can be seen that Catholics pray to Mary, they don't just ask her to pray for them. Prayer is an act of worship. This is where we apparently do not agree. Do you think prayer is an act of worship?

One meaning of pray is ask. So when we pray to Mary we are asking Mary.

Confusion arises because in the Greek there are two different words that we translate "pray". Actually there are many but there are two in particular.

The Greek speaking Orthodox use one for addressing God and the other for addressing Mary and the Saints. But we use the same word "pray" for both.

I can go into this in more detail if you wish giving scriptural examples.

: winsome  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 11:12:06
One meaning of pray is ask. So when we pray to Mary we are asking Mary.

Confusion arises because in the Greek there are two different words that we translate "pray". Actually there are many but there are two in particular.

The Greek speaking Orthodox use one for addressing God and the other for addressing Mary and the Saints. But we use the same word "pray" for both.

I can go into this in more detail if you wish giving scriptural examples.

What is the difference between Catholics praying to Mary and other saints, and pagans praying to their dead ancestors?

: winsome  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 10:33:44
AVZ,
I didn't ask you for a copy of the "Glories of Mary". I told you already that I had located one on Google Books.

As you have continually failed to select a quote that you object to I will take this one that you quoted.

"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."

As I expected it is not all that it seems.

Firstly the text I am using comes from the version on Google Books:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5apnX6B1TwsC&pg=PA11&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5apnX6B1TwsC&pg=PA11&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false)

On one of the title pages it says:
This new and improved translation of "The Glories of Mary," having been duly examined, is hereby approved of.
JOHN Archbishop of New York
New York, Jan 21st 1852

On the Preface page it says:
The edition of the Glories of Mary now presented to the Catholic public of America is the first complete translation of the work ever made into the English language We trust that it will be found to retain the spirit of the learned and saintly author and that it will be welcomed by the faithful in this country with the same delight which it has university called forth in Catholic Europe.

So we can be reasonably sure this is an approved version and is faithful to the original.


It is in Chapter 1, Section 2 commentary on the prayer Salve Regina (Hail Holy Queen)

Firstly the quote is not a comment by Ligouri himself, but he is quoting St. Bridget.

Secondly the quote actually says:
"Therefore he shall be miserable and forever miserable in another life, who in this being able, does not have recourse to me, who am so compassionate to all, and so earnestly desire to aid sinners."

So the true quote does NOT say "In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation". It's not in the text

It does NOT say (as you claimed) "If you do not pray to Mary...you go to hell. That's the message of the Catholic church!"

You can look it up yourself. I gave you the link - page 34/35

Continue reading. You will get there.

: winsome  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 10:33:44
AVZ,
I didn't ask you for a copy of the "Glories of Mary". I told you already that I had located one on Google Books.

So you called me out on those claims that I allegedly made; such as I "claimed" the book has an imprimatur and the book has Nihil Obstat...whilst you had the book all that time.
You also alleged I found the quotes on some Catholic bashing website, whilst you actually knew I did not.

The tactics you are using to defend this for you obviously embarrassing book are telling.
I wonder what your next attempt to throw up a straw man is going to be.

The book is not going away. The Catholic church has obviously made Mary into our savior on equal footing with the Father and the Son.

: Amo  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 11:38:24
What is the difference between Catholics praying to Mary and other saints, and pagans praying to their dead ancestors?

What has that to do with the meaning of prayer?

Answer: Absolutely nothing. It's just a typical attempt at a diversion.

: AVZ  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 11:52:05
Continue reading. You will get there.

It's not there

I gave you the full quote.

Or did you do what Amo did and give a fabricated quote that was two separate quotes stitched together?

: AVZ  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 12:00:48
So you called me out on those claims that I allegedly made; such as I "claimed" the book has an imprimatur and the book has Nihil Obstat...whilst you had the book all that time.
You also alleged I found the quotes on some Catholic bashing website, whilst you actually knew I did not.

The tactics you are using to defend this for you obviously embarrassing book are telling.
I wonder what your next attempt to throw up a straw man is going to be.

I had no idea what you actually had since you did not divulge your source.

You still haven't, since the quote you gave is not there you must have some other source.

I'm not the dishonest one around here.

: AVZ  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 12:00:48
The book is not going away. The Catholic church has obviously made Mary into our savior on equal footing with the Father and the Son.

Rubbish.

So be it. Dedicate your lives, your churches, your nations, and this world to Mary, and do what she tells you.

: winsome  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 12:52:41
It's not there

I gave you the full quote.

Or did you do what Amo did and give a fabricated quote that was two separate quotes stitched together?

Your my hero...you read 900 pages in a weekend?
Just curious, how long does it take you to read War and Peace? One evening?

: Amo  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 11:38:24
What is the difference between Catholics praying to Mary and other saints, and pagans praying to their dead ancestors?

The dead ancestors are supposed to bless or curse your life of their own power.  Saints have no power of their own except to pray for us through Christ to the Father.

: AVZ  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 12:00:48The book is not going away. The Catholic church has obviously made Mary into our savior on equal footing with the Father and the Son.

I'm a teacher of catechism for confirmation students.  If you think that we put Mary equal to Christ, you are sadly mistaken.  Mary cooperates with God in his plan for salvation.  By her YES to God, she allowed the incarnation to take place, which is the single most significant act by a human being other than Christ himself.  Her YES allowed God's plan for salvation to take place.  For that role in salvation we venerate (but don't worship) her as the first and best Christian.

: Open Heart  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 21:15:20
I'm a teacher of catechism for confirmation students.  If you think that we put Mary equal to Christ, you are sadly mistaken.  Mary cooperates with God in his plan for salvation.  By her YES to God, she allowed the incarnation to take place, which is the single most significant act by a human being other than Christ himself.  Her YES allowed God's plan for salvation to take place.  For that role in salvation we venerate (but don't worship) her as the first and best Christian.

How is this any different from for example the Apostles saying yes to spread the gospel, or Moses saying yes to go to Pharaoh.
None of these people were ever in a position to "allow God to let His plan take place".

We admire these people for doing what they did. It shows great faith.
But Mary's yes is in no way more significant than Abraham's yes, or Moses yes, or the Apostles yes, or the yes by the various prophets.

Yet none of these people, who were in their own way instrumental in God's plan of salvation have been put in the same position as Mary by the Catholic church.
The quotes in the book speak for themselves: Mary is in charge, she holds the power of salvation in her hands, she distributes it and her word is law to the Father and the Son.

That's no longer adoration or veneration...that's plain and simple worship.

: AVZ  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 17:37:24
Your my hero...you read 900 pages in a weekend?
Just curious, how long does it take you to read War and Peace? One evening?

I don't need to read the whole book. You said "All quotes come from the first chapters of the book. "

Moreover I have done a search on 'damnation' (from your claimed quote) and it occurs only 5 times. None of them match your quote.

You seem very coy about the version you claim to have of this book and where this quote can be found.

: AVZ  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 06:32:19
I have posted fragments from a book that is endorsed and approved by the Catholic church

The quotes from this book are approved by the Catholic church, and it bears the stamp of Nihil Obstat...which means that the Catholic church has no objection towards the contents of the book.

What I am posting here is what the Catholic church promotes and teaches.


If you do not believe me, buy the book, notice the stamp of approval fro the Vatican and read it for yourself.

AVZ,

You claim far too much for a nihil obstat and imprimatur.

In my understanding:
They do not say that the Vatican approves of the writing.
They do not say that the Catholic Church approves of the writing.
They do not say that the Bishop who gives the imprimatur approves of the writing.
They do not say this is what the Catholic Church promotes and teaches.

Take three statements X, Y & Z about some aspect of the Catholic Faith.

Writer A says these statements X, Y & Z are true.
Writer B says these statements X, Y & Z are false.

It is quite possible for the both pieces of writing to get an imprimatur from the same Bishop.

Many modern books contain a disclaimer such as this one:
The permission to publish is a declaration that a book or pamphlet is considered to be free from doctrinal or moral error. It is not implied that those who have granted the permission to publish agree with the contents, opinions, or statements expressed.

As fisheaters.com comments
Please know that the presence of an Imprimatur does not mean that a book is an official text of the Church. It doesn't make the book the equivalent of an encyclical, say. It's not the approval of the work by the Pope or a dogmatic Council, and it's not a stamp of infallibility. It doesn't even mean that everything in the book is accurate, only that there is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic dogma. But, while occasionally a book sneaks through and its Imprimatur later recalled, this procedure is an important way for Catholics to increase their chances of staying error-free with regard to doctrine

: winsome  Mon Jan 08, 2018 - 05:23:10
AVZ,

You claim far too much for a nihil obstat and imprimatur.

In my understanding:
They do not say that the Vatican approves of the writing.
They do not say that the Catholic Church approves of the writing.
They do not say that the Bishop who gives the imprimatur approves of the writing.
They do not say this is what the Catholic Church promotes and teaches.

Take three statements X, Y & Z about some aspect of the Catholic Faith.

Writer A says these statements X, Y & Z are true.
Writer B says these statements X, Y & Z are false.

It is quite possible for the both pieces of writing to get an imprimatur from the same Bishop.

Many modern books contain a disclaimer such as this one:
The permission to publish is a declaration that a book or pamphlet is considered to be free from doctrinal or moral error. It is not implied that those who have granted the permission to publish agree with the contents, opinions, or statements expressed.

As fisheaters.com comments
Please know that the presence of an Imprimatur does not mean that a book is an official text of the Church. It doesn't make the book the equivalent of an encyclical, say. It's not the approval of the work by the Pope or a dogmatic Council, and it's not a stamp of infallibility. It doesn't even mean that everything in the book is accurate, only that there is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic dogma. But, while occasionally a book sneaks through and its Imprimatur later recalled, this procedure is an important way for Catholics to increase their chances of staying error-free with regard to doctrine

Don't know what you are trying to convey. Its very simple...books with Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat are officially approved by a cleric of the Catholic church who has been given the authority to grant those permissions.

It is exactly as you say: Those books DO NOT contradicts Catholic dogma and they ARE considered free from doctrinal or moral error.

So the Glories of Mary, is in line with Catholic dogma and it is free from doctrinal and moral error.
Hence it is official teaching of the Catholic church.


Winsome, you can try to discredit the book until you see blue in the face, but fact is it has received the stamps of approval over and over again from many authorities in the Catholic church.
I know the book is a huge embarrassment for you and that's why you are not even trying to address the content of the book.

Fact is that the Catholic friends I asked to read the book are blown off their socks. They had not clue that this is approved by their church.
Some of them asked their priest and the amazing part is that no-one gets a straightforward answer. This book is a huge embarrassment for the Catholics.
The good thing is that those who I asked to read the book have seriously started to doubt the Catholic church on the correctness of Mariology.

Many Protestants equally do not know of this book. Those who I asked to read it are equally blown off their socks.
Many Protestants swallow the language of the Catholic church that downplays the whole adoration of Mary. They think its just a matter of interpretation of a few words like adoration and veneration.
This book however gives insight in what the Catholic church really thinks, what their heroes of faith really promote and what the unveiled language of the Catholic church is with regards to the position of Mary.

I had the luck to be able to sit down with a nun here in my hometown to talk about the position of Mary in the church.
I gave her the book and asked her to comment. She was totally taken aback and she actually apologized. She had no idea this book existed!
When we left she promised she was going to find out more and look into the matter. I do not know if she did.

Winsome, I have been through it all.
Catholics trying to discredit the term Imprimatur. Catholics trying to renegotiate the term Nihil Obstat. Even Catholics trying to get help from their priest to explain.
None of it helps. The book is here, it has the approvals.
The fact that the book remains is because the Catholic church agrees on all of it! What is in the book is truth as far as the Catholic church is concerned.
This is how Mary is seen, how she is worshiped and how Catholics are supposed to see her.

So instead of trying to negotiate that which is irrelevant, I would say start reading the book and get your eyes opened to what your church really teaches.

: AVZ  Mon Jan 08, 2018 - 05:51:13
Don't know what you are trying to convey. Its very simple...books with Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat are officially approved by a cleric of the Catholic church who has been given the authority to grant those permissions.

It is exactly as you say: Those books DO NOT contradicts Catholic dogma and they ARE considered free from doctrinal or moral error.

So the Glories of Mary, is in line with Catholic dogma and it is free from doctrinal and moral error.
Hence it is official teaching of the Catholic church.

As usual with you AVZ, what the Catholic Church means by something the Catholic Church says has to mean what you want it to mean not what the Church intends it to mean.

: winsome  Mon Jan 08, 2018 - 06:06:18
As usual with you AVZ, what the Catholic Church means by something the Catholic Church says has to mean what you want it to mean not what the Church intends it to mean.

Winsome...read the book.
This is not some high theological print, it is written in plain language and the meaning is very clear to all who takes the time to get himself informed.
It's all there if you are interested.

: AVZ  Mon Jan 08, 2018 - 06:16:31
Winsome...read the book.
This is not some high theological print, it is written in plain language and the meaning is very clear to all who takes the time to get himself informed.
It's all there if you are interested.

AVZ,

I'm still waiting for yo to tell me where this quote comes from in the book:
"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."

What version of the book do you have?
What is it's publication date?

You claim it has a nihil obstat.
Who gave it and on what date?

You claim it has an imprimatur.
Who gave it and on what date?

I've given you my source. What is your problem in giving me yours??

: AVZ  Mon Jan 08, 2018 - 05:51:13
Winsome, you can try to discredit the book until you see blue in the face, but fact is it has received the stamps of approval over and over again from many authorities in the Catholic church.
I know the book is a huge embarrassment for you and that's why you are not even trying to address the content of the book.

Fact is that the Catholic friends I asked to read the book are blown off their socks. They had not clue that this is approved by their church.
Some of them asked their priest and the amazing part is that no-one gets a straightforward answer. This book is a huge embarrassment for the Catholics.
The good thing is that those who I asked to read the book have seriously started to doubt the Catholic church on the correctness of Mariology.

Many Protestants equally do not know of this book. Those who I asked to read it are equally blown off their socks.
Many Protestants swallow the language of the Catholic church that downplays the whole adoration of Mary. They think its just a matter of interpretation of a few words like adoration and veneration.
This book however gives insight in what the Catholic church really thinks, what their heroes of faith really promote and what the unveiled language of the Catholic church is with regards to the position of Mary.

I had the luck to be able to sit down with a nun here in my hometown to talk about the position of Mary in the church.
I gave her the book and asked her to comment. She was totally taken aback and she actually apologized. She had no idea this book existed!
When we left she promised she was going to find out more and look into the matter. I do not know if she did.

Winsome, I have been through it all.
Catholics trying to discredit the term Imprimatur. Catholics trying to renegotiate the term Nihil Obstat. Even Catholics trying to get help from their priest to explain.
None of it helps. The book is here, it has the approvals.
The fact that the book remains is because the Catholic church agrees on all of it! What is in the book is truth as far as the Catholic church is concerned.
This is how Mary is seen, how she is worshiped and how Catholics are supposed to see her.

So instead of trying to negotiate that which is irrelevant, I would say start reading the book and get your eyes opened to what your church really teaches.

Oh, spare me the faux shock, horror stuff.

: winsome  Mon Jan 08, 2018 - 07:33:13
AVZ,

I'm still waiting for yo to tell me where this quote comes from in the book:
"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."

What version of the book do you have?
What is it's publication date?

You claim it has a nihil obstat.
Who gave it and on what date?

You claim it has an imprimatur.
Who gave it and on what date?

I've given you my source. What is your problem in giving me yours??

You know what, I'll give you a Catholic source.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories1.htm

Take note of the header: Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat

Then scroll down to the 4th line above chapter 2.


See I am not unfair. I am giving you a Catholic source, confirming the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat and on top of that confirming the text in The Glories of Mary.
What more do you want?

: AVZ  Mon Jan 08, 2018 - 10:19:53
You know what, I'll give you a Catholic source.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories1.htm (http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories1.htm)

Take note of the header: Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat

Then scroll down to the 4th line above chapter 2.


See I am not unfair. I am giving you a Catholic source, confirming the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat and on top of that confirming the text in The Glories of Mary.
What more do you want?

What more I want is what I asked you for:
What version of the book do you have?
What is it's publication date?

You claim it has a nihil obstat.
Who gave it and on what date?

You claim it has an imprimatur.
Who gave it and on what date?

I've given you my source. What is your problem in giving me yours?

The site you pointed to is only supposed excerpts  from the "Glories of Mary"
It doesn't give a reference to the source of these excerpts.
It claims to have nihil obstat and imprimatur but doesn't say who gave them or when.

Why the prevarication?
Do you have the book or not?
Or do you just have some dodgy extracts?

Does you book have, and have you read, the
PETITION OF THE AUTHOR TO JESUS AND MARY
TO THE READER
INTRODUCTION WHICH OUGHT TO BE READ
All of which are missing from the web link you gave and are an important preliminary to understand the contex.

Incidentally, some time ago I purchased a "package" of useful stuff but I hardly used it. I've had a look into it & found it has the same version of the Glories of Mary" as on Google Books.  ::blushing:: ::smile::

AVZ,
I've found a very interesting rebuttal by Dave Armstrong to a Protestant who claimed the "Glories of Mary"  puts Mary "above God" and she can "manipulate God". Dave Armstrong is a Catholic apologist who used to be Protestant himself.

In his introduction he makes these points:
Most Protestants are taught very little about the Blessed Virgin Mary: The Mother of God the Son (Theotokos, or literally, God-bearer), other than the fact that she rocked baby Jesus' cradle on the first Christmas and thus helped to make Silent Night (written by an Austrian Catholic priest) the lovely, moving song that it is. Thus, for them to understand the highest theological and spiritual level of Catholic Mariology is somewhat akin to expecting a child who has just mastered the times tables to comprehend calculus or trigonometry. It just won't happen. Even most Catholics don't understand these things. They require much thought and study. One has to progress in any form of knowledge little by little.

The amount of misinformation, disinformation, and incorrect understandings amongst Protestants on these issues can never, in my experience, be underestimated, or overlooked.

I think you ought to read it.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2016/02/st-alphonsus-de-liguori-mary-worshiper-idolater.html (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2016/02/st-alphonsus-de-liguori-mary-worshiper-idolater.html)

I mentioned Liguori's introductory sections before the main part of the book begins. They are important because they set a context for Liguori's thoughts within which the rest of the book should be interpreted.

For example in the section To The Reader he writes
"...Almighty God, in order to glorify the mother of the Redeemer, has ordained that her great charity should intercede for all those for whom her divine Son offered and paid the superabundant ransom of his precious blood, in which alone is our salvation, life and resurrection.
and continues
It is on the basis of this doctrine and whatever belongs to it that I have undertaken to establish my propositions

: AVZ  Sun Jan 07, 2018 - 22:31:38
How is this any different from for example the Apostles saying yes to spread the gospel, or Moses saying yes to go to Pharaoh.

Moses didn't receive the New Covenant.  He received the Sinai covenant and shared it with Israelites, not the world.

There were many, many disciples who shared the gospel.  But only one mother.

The disciples, and Moses, are considered saints.  They are venerated (not worshiped) and we aske them to pray for us to God through Jesus Christ.  They are considered of great significance -- just not quite as much as Mary.

For information.

Regarding the "quote" from the "Glories of Mary"
"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."
This is part of a quote from St. Bridget. The version of the book on Google Books and on  my computer give the full Latin text. I have asked a priest friend of mine who is studying in Rome, to give me a translation.
Here it is:
Ego regina cœli (I am the queen of Heaven); ego mater misericordiæ (I am the Mother of Mercy); ego justorum gaudium et aditus peccatorum ad Deum (I am the joy of the just and the gate of entrance for sinners to God). Nullus est adeo maledictus, qui quamdiu vivit careat misericordia mea (There is no sinner living on earth who is so accursed that he is deprived of my compassion); quia propter ne levius tentatur a dæmonibus, quam alias tentaretur (For everyone, if he receives nothing else through my intercession, receives the grace of being less tempted by evil spirits than he otherwise would be). Nullus est ita abjectus a Deo, nisi fuerit omnino maledictus, qui si me invocaverit, non revertatur ad Deum, et babiturus, sit misericordiam. (No one, therefore who is not entirely accursed is so entirely cast off by God that he may not return and enjoy his mercy if he invokes my aid). Ego vocor ab omnibus mater misericordiæ (I am called by all the Mother of Mercy), et vere misericordia illius misericordem me fecit (And truly the mercy of God towards men has made me so merciful towards them). Ideo miser erit qui ad misericordem, cum possit, non accredit (Therefore he shall be miserable, and forever miserable who in this life though able, does not have recourse to me).