2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
When, and where does this occur?
At Jesus' second coming.
Larry----
When jesus returns the saints will be raptured and the Tribulation will begin. During this period taking place on earth, the Judgment seat of Christ will
take place. the FINAL JUDGMENT will occur at the very end of time (after Satan has been bound for a thousand years and the Millenium has occurred)---
the Judgment Seat of Christ is an entirely different event and takes place much earlier than the final judgment.
: 4WD Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 10:22:12
At Jesus' second coming.
::nodding::
: larry2 Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 10:02:01
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
When, and where does this occur?
At the judgment seat of Christ, believers are rewarded based on how faithfully they served Christ.
It occurs in heaven. Mainly it is for rewards, not shame. (for we have been forgiven)
It happens when believers die.
Then we will meet Jesus and be perfected.
: fish153 Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 10:33:30Larry----
When jesus returns the saints will be raptured and the Tribulation will begin. During this period taking place on earth, the Judgment seat of Christ will
take place. the FINAL JUDGMENT will occur at the very end of time (after Satan has been bound for a thousand years and the Millenium has occurred)---
the Judgment Seat of Christ is an entirely different event and takes place much earlier than the final judgment.
The Judgment Seat of Christ [Bema] is not about going to heaven or hell. That is decided at the point of death. Nothing after death will or could change that decision. The Bema is for all and is based upon how a person has lived and what he has said and done. We are not really told what the results of that judgment session is; only that it will occur.
Some great answers so far, and agree with much I have heard in the past, and I'm purposefully not revealing my thinking on it as to keep from all just seeing it, possibly not agreeing, and giving no thought to it.
What if I add this following scripture to it?
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
: 4WD Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 15:10:20
The Judgment Seat of Christ [Bema] is not about going to heaven or hell. That is decided at the point of death. Nothing after death will or could change that decision. The Bema is for all and is based upon how a person has lived and what he has said and done. We are not really told what the results of that judgment session is; only that it will occur.
I agree with this brother; this does concern our time we're here, but would say that we are told the results depending on our walk with Christ. Do you see anything concerning our spirituality that will change the reward we're to have?
: fish153 Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 10:33:30
When jesus returns the saints will be raptured and the Tribulation will begin.
During this period taking place on earth, the Judgment seat of Christ will take place.
The FINAL JUDGMENT will occur at the very end of time (after Satan has been bound for a thousand years and the Millenium has occurred)---
The Judgment Seat of Christ is an entirely different event and takes place much earlier than the final judgment.
Agree entirely, and now all we have to do is identify it. Can we say :it is written? ::smile::
: lea Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 12:10:31
At the judgment seat of Christ, believers are rewarded based on how faithfully they served Christ.
It occurs in heaven. Mainly it is for rewards, not shame. (for we have been forgiven)
Hi Sister @lea, I love this part of your reply. As far as the judgment seat itself, my thought is that it occurs as we follow the Spirit instead of the flesh told us in Rom 8:4, and is made manifest to us in scripture. Thanks for your reply.
: larry2 Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 17:48:37I agree with this brother; this does concern our time we're here, but would say that we are told the results depending on our walk with Christ. Do you see anything concerning our spirituality that will change the reward we're to have?
I am not sure what you mean by "our spirituality". What is that?
: 4WD Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 06:44:16
I am not sure what you mean by "our spirituality". What is that?
I suppose I chose a poor word to express our spiritual walk with our Lord. Rom 8:4 says: Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (by God - Php 2:13), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
We are not saved by works of the law, but the bride has received her place of reward by her righteous (righteousness) works.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness (equitable deeds) of saints.
Her enduring (suffering) with Christ brings a special place. 2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. (This is in opposition to deny Jesus that place in our lives.)
Thanks for bringing that up.
: larry2 Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 17:48:37Do you see anything concerning our spirituality that will change the reward we're to have?
I believe that there will be various levels or degrees or gradations of standing within heaven. I am certain that the apostles will receive a standing higher than mine in heaven. I have no clue what that really means, because I really have no clue about anything in heaven. And I can't have a clue. I have no basis from this life in this physical universe to judge or evaluate life in the spiritual realm of heaven.
: 4WD Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 07:29:36
I believe that there will be various levels or degrees or gradations of standing within heaven. I am certain that the apostles will receive a standing higher than mine in heaven. I have no clue what that really means, because I really have no clue about anything in heaven. And I can't have a clue. I have no basis from this life in this physical universe to judge or evaluate life in the spiritual realm of heaven.
I'm sure all of us have no in depth knowledge of the things God has for us who love Him.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
When Paul was caught up into heaven with our risen Savior, he couldn't even find words to describe what he saw. (It doesn't mean that he was prohibited from telling us about it - there were not sufficient language to express it)
2Co 12:4 How that he (Paul) was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and He (Jesus) that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. (Is this reward of being before the throne serving the same as that which the 24 elders have in proximity of being round bout Jesus' throne reigning?)
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (They'll actually reign over the earth from heaven)
There is consequence to our not allowing God to rule, and being in His perfect will for us, and the Judgment Seat presently in effect tells us what needs correcting.
: larry2 Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 08:19:43 the Judgment Seat presently in effect
??? ??? ???
: 4WD Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 08:31:53
??? ??? ???
I didn't want to come right out and say what the ongoing judgment seat of Christ is without giving our brethren freedom to express different ideas I may not have heard of, and thus learn more.
I'll add this next tibbit of information given us, and that at this present time Jesus is walking among the churches.
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (The things which are is the context of what John is describing of Jesus' ongoing judgment.)
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
I hope this is beginning to make sense. Thanks for your replies.
larry2 said:
There is consequence to our not allowing God to rule, and being in His perfect will for us, and the Judgment Seat presently in effect tells us what needs correcting.
I meditated on this for a while and it is possible that Paul meant "the judgment seat of Christ" for the believer's present tense or state.
: lea Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 13:48:20
larry2 said:
I meditated on this for a while and it is possible that Paul meant "the judgment seat of Christ" for the believer's present tense or state.
To me, that's good thinking. The thing about our walk in christ though is that both good and bad are judged. There are three different definitions of our will described in Rom 12:2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good,
and acceptable,
and perfect,
will of God.
We're even told to not do some things for conscience sake such as obeying the rulers God puts in authority over us such as we read of in Romans Chapter Thirteen. Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. Those things affect our walk also.
: larry2 Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 09:36:46I hope this is beginning to make sense.
Nope, but that is OK.
: larry2 Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 09:36:46
I hope this is beginning to make sense. Thanks for your replies.
I'm sorry I'm not seeming to get the idea of what judgment is. I'll just not waste any more time of what Jesus is doing at this present time.
Although Jesus has been given all authority and power in Mt 28:18, He is not yet sitting on His own throne He receives in Rev 4:2. He is acting as our mediator, He is walking among the churches judging us who believe, and John is having that judgment shown him, and writing it to the seven pastors of the churches in Asia according to Rev 1:11.
The Judgment Seat is Jesus finding fault with five conditions of the Church, telling them what they lack in, and to repent. Only two conditions of the Church are commended, and that is Smyrna in Rev 2:10, ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Next is the church in Philadelphia. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (or patiently kept my word, and endure.), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Does our walk with our Lord warrant such a warning as Ephesus received in Rev 2:4 . . . because thou hast left thy first love. (You used to put Christ first; what happened?)
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent . . . And it goes on with the remaining four churches.
: larry2 Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 17:45:21
He is not yet sitting on His own throne He receives in Rev 4:2.
That is not true.
Jesus Christ is Lord!
This is fundamental Christian doctrine from the beginning. Peter testified to this truth when the Gospel was proclaimed at Pentecost;
Acts 2
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh,
he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that
God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Also notice ".. at his coming. Then cometh the end .."
Philippians 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that
Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Not
will be Lord, but
is Lord.
Colossians 1
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into
the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
The Kingdom & reign of the
Lord Jesus Christ is now for we are translated in to the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ upon redemption when we are chosen, adopted by God, to be the very Children of God through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
: larry2 Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 10:02:01
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
When, and where does this occur?
2 Corinthians 5:10-11.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience.
This judgment is for all, not just believers. Note that after describing the judgment, Paul says this is why we know the fear of the Lord and why we persuade others (preaching the gospel).
I believe that saved people are saved from all sin and will not be held accountable for anything they have done wrong in the flesh. Note that 2 Cor 5:10 does not say that an accounting will be required of anybody. It just says that recompense for what has been done will take place.
I believe the faithful have already escaped condemnation in that Christ's shed blood offers perfect sanctification to those who walk in Him (John 5:24; 6:39-40; 1 John 1:7). Likewise the unbelievers are condemned already because they do not believe in Jesus (John 3:18; 8:24). The return of Jesus is not to declare who is saved and lost, that is being determined as each individual accepts or rejects the gospel, rather it is to finally reveal and conclude that decision of each person.
Hebrews 9:26b-28.
But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
There will be a day when He will come, not to bear sins and offer forgiveness...that is for now, but apart from sin...to judge the world (John 5:26-29; 2 Timothy 4:1; Acts 17:30-31). By comparing 2 Corinthians 5:10 with other passages (Matthew 16:27; 25:31-46; John 5:28-29) it looks to me like Paul is talking about the judgment of all on the last day.
: larry2 Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 17:45:21
I'm sorry I'm not seeming to get the idea of what judgment is. I'll just not waste any more time of what Jesus is doing at this present time.
Although Jesus has been given all authority and power in Mt 28:18, He is not yet sitting on His own throne He receives in Rev 4:2.
Read Revelation from chapter 4:1 through to 5:14, then tell me who is sitting on that throne. In addition, tell me who the Lamb is who is not sitting on the throne. ::reading::
: TonkaTim Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 20:10:04
That is not true.
Jesus Christ is Lord!
etc., etc.
::nodding:: +1
: larry2 Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 17:45:21
Although Jesus has been given all authority and power in Mt 28:18, He is not yet sitting on His own throne He receives in Rev 4:2.
: soterion Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 22:00:25
Read Revelation from chapter 4:1 through to 5:14, then tell me who is sitting on that throne. In addition, tell me who the Lamb is who is not sitting on the throne. ::reading::
The scripture you bring to the table is of a future viewpoint of Jesus receiving His own throne.
Rev 4:1 ... I will shew thee things which must be hereafter... (what things)
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 01:03:03
The scripture you bring to the table is of a future viewpoint of Jesus receiving His own throne.
Rev 4:1 ... I will shew thee things which must be hereafter... (what things)
Larry, you are applying the definition of 'hereafter' to mean exclusively 'the future'
KJV translators got the word correct & in the sense it is used adverbially & means; " after this : from now on" "starting from this time; in the future" why the synonyms to it are henceforth "from this point on" & henceforward meaning the same thing. It denotes a present then future, not exclusively future.
So what is present in what John is seeing? Obviously the present reign of Christ as repeatedly declared by scripture. Also confirmed by the very next chapter when we read about the prevailing, exaltation, & worship of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah (The Lord Jesus Christ). That is not an exclusively future event. It is the very thing Peter declared when he preached the Gospel at Pentecost; "God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ"
In that worship of Christ we also see exactly what Paul described in Phillippians 2 "9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Revelation 5
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Allow scripture to define scripture & the glass we look through darkly becomes much more clear.
: TonkaTim Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 03:54:09Allow scripture to define scripture & the glass we look through darkly becomes much more clear.
Amen and very well stated.
: TonkaTim Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 03:54:09
Larry, you are applying the definition of 'hereafter' to mean exclusively 'the future'
KJV translators got the word correct & in the sense it is used adverbially & means; " after this : from now on" "starting from this time; in the future" why the synonyms to it are henceforth "from this point on" & henceforward meaning the same thing. It denotes a present then future, not exclusively future.
Didn't know what the Lord's Day was? If you did, your explanation above is correct. I have no idea where you get the idea that the word
hereafter is not exclusive future.
: TonkaTim Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 03:54:09
So what is present in what John is seeing? Obviously the present reign of Christ as repeatedly declared by scripture.
Easy enough. It includes the entire Church Age, a term come to be known as dispensations. Like Israel given a bill of divorce in Jer 3:8, this present age ends with the collection of the saints to Jesus' very presence, and ends with Rev 3:16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
The merging into the millennial age will begin with those who faithfully keep God's word, and endure until Jesus comes in the air for them to be in His presence. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
What happens next? Stayed tuned.
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 04:34:42
I have no idea where you get the idea that the word hereafter is not exclusive future.
Dictionaries for one.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/hereafter#dataset-british
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hereafter
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/henceforth
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/hereafter
Continuity of Scripture as well.
(cited above)
Thirdly, that the Greek agrees with the correct translation & meaning
http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/4-1.htm
: TonkaTim Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 04:44:02
Dictionaries for one.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/hereafter#dataset-british
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hereafter
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/henceforth
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/hereafter
Continuity of Scripture as well.
(cited above)
Thirdly, that the Greek agrees with the correct translation & meaning
http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/4-1.htm
Ya got me grammatically partner. In the terms I read the word "Hereafter" will be assigned to the time after the Lord's Day begins.
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 04:56:39
In the terms I read the word "Hereafter" will be assigned to the time after the Lord's Day begins.
I know. In order to make scripture fit the doctrine you were taught you must read it that way.
Dispensationalism is full of grammatical, context, & scriptural continuity contradictions like that. Which is why you assign time after the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is the Last Day, yet your doctrine assigns 365,000 more days after the Last Day.
: TonkaTim Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 05:19:15
The Lord's Day is the Last Day.
Yeah that sure sounds right. ::smile:: And so John is shown all these things he writes hereafter from the last day, or is it something? You're beginning to sound preterist Is this what they're taught?
Let's see, after the Last Day . . . (We can use the word "Last" as final instead of something past can't we?).
Does this work? Hereafter, God will have John write the size of an army that came two thousand years ago so that we can preserve a history of the last Day.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand (200,000,000 to kill : and I heard the number of them.
That is sort of strange isn't it? The entire world population at the birth of Jesus is estimated at three hundred million. That means that two hundred million rode two hundred horses to kill the remaining one hundred existing people living on the Last Day. (Rev 9:16-17)
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 06:30:25
Yeah that sure sounds right. ::smile:: And so John is shown all these things he writes hereafter from the last day, or is it something? You're beginning to sound preterist Is this what they're taught?
Definitely not a preterist. Preterist think the Last Day came in 70AD.
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 06:30:25
Let's see, after the Last Day . . . (We can use the word "Last" as final instead of something past can't we?).
I use the Last Day in the exact sense Jesus & Martha use it.
John 11
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the
last day(Going to cite the rest of Martha's testimony because I love it so.)
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord:
I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again
at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up
at the last day.
John 12
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him
in the last dayI believe Jesus.
It is also in Revelation revealed in the fulfillment of our blessed hope.
Revelation 21
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 2 3And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there
shall be no night there.
No night.
Revelation 22
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be
no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Night divides the days just as it is illustrated in Genesis one.
With no night there is only one eternal glorious day. The Last Day. Eternity in the new heavens & new earth is the Last Day.
Which begins in darkness, the last night, then the Light comes beggining the Last Day. "24 But in those days,
after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." & is the Great Day of God Almighty (Revelation 16). Which is also the great day of the wrath of the Lamb "16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Revelation 6)
: TonkaTim Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 06:55:11
I use the Last Day in the exact sense Jesus & Martha use it.
John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day
With no night there is only one eternal glorious day. The Last Day. Eternity in the new heavens & new earth is the Last Day.
And so do you believe that John was caught backward to the Lord's Day, which I take you to say was the last Day, and there shown all the wrath of God to be poured out on unbelieving humanity the new heaven and earth?
Is there a name of the church you may attend that teachs this, or was it done away with on the last day?
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 07:26:02
And so do you believe that John was caught backward to the Lord's Day, which I take you to say was the last Day, and there shown all the wrath of God to be poured out on unbelieving humanity the new heaven and earth?
Is there a name of the church you may attend that teachs this, or was it done away with on the last day?
Why would "John
be caught backward to the Lord's Day"? That makes no sense.
Did John see the Great Day of God Almighty? yes
Did John see the new heaven & new earth? yes.
Did John see the day with no night? yes.
I don't think it is very difficult. It is as Jesus taught. He is coming back. Then for this world, the works of this world, & the wicked, it's "that's all folks".
I think the Apostle Peter summed up what the Lord Jesus Christ taught him quite succinctly:
"10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 01:03:03
The scripture you bring to the table is of a future viewpoint of Jesus receiving His own throne.
Rev 4:1 ... I will shew thee things which must be hereafter... (what things)
Let's try that again. I'll keep it simple. In Revelation 4:1-5:14, who is the Lamb who takes the scroll from the hand of the One sitting on the throne?
As to the meaning of, "...the things which must be hereafter...", Revelation should be read from the viewpoint of when it was written. It was written sometime in the first century to the seven churches of Asia. "Hereafter" should be understood from the viewpoint of John who wrote it and from the viewpoint of those who received it from John in those days.
Now, don't forget my question. If Jesus is the One seated on the throne in Rev chapters 4 and 5, then who is the Lamb? ::smile::
Revelation 1:9-11.
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
John was on the island Patmos, he was under the influence of the Spirit of God and he was told to write down what he sees in a book and to send that book to the seven churches. This occurred on a day John referred to as the Lord's day. The Lord's day is a day on which John received the instruction to write the book we call Revelation.
I see it simply as the first day of the week. I see zero justification to assign some apocalyptic meaning to it. It can't be the Last Day since it existed prior to the writing of Revelation; it was a day that existed in the first century. As far as I am concerned, there have been weekly Lord's days ever since until now. ::smile::
: TonkaTim Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 07:57:01
Why would "John be caught backward to the Lord's Day"? That makes no sense.
You're right, but I thought you said that the Lord's Day was the last day, and there is much judgment and wrath occurs from that point forward.
: TonkaTim Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 07:57:01
I don't think it is very difficult. It is as Jesus taught. He is coming back. Then for this world, the works of this world, & the wicked, it's "that's all folks".
When is Jesus coming back, and to where?
: TonkaTim Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 07:57:01
I don't think it is very difficult. It is as Jesus taught. He is coming back. Then for this world, the works of this world, & the wicked, it's "that's all folks".
When is Jesus coming back, and to where?
: TonkaTim Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 07:57:01
I think the Apostle Peter summed up what the Lord Jesus Christ taught him quite succinctly:
"10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
But if the Lord's Day lasts for a thousand as much of the Church thinks to be the length of Christ's reign, many of the things you listed can happen in that time. I just can't believe that a real thousand years isn't involved in Jesus' reign.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Back to the topic of The Bema Seat of Christ:
Our faithful acts (or not) are being recorded now. But the Bema seat judgment surely takes place after the death of the believer. It's still ongoing.
Loss or gain of rewards at the Bema. 1 Cor 13:13-15: "each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire ."
: lea Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 11:15:11
Back to the topic of The Bema Seat of Christ:
Our faithful acts (or not) are being recorded now. But the Bema seat judgment surely takes place after the death of the believer. It's still ongoing.
Loss or gain of rewards at the Bema. 1 Cor 13:13-15: "each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire .[/color]"
Hi Lea, and sorry I took so long getting back to you. Your post here certainly pertains to the Judgment Seat of Christ, and what God considers acceptable; all other works goes up as dross and ashes before the testing fire of God's word.
This just came to mind, and that is how many fast. What are they doing it for?
Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day,
to make your voice to be heard on high. Isa 58:6
Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
This fast brings reward, and as to being judged after we're dead, our qualifications for reward is established here and now.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
: soterion Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 08:20:12
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
This occurred on a day John referred to as the Lord's day.
I see it simply as the first day of the week.
Hi Soterion. Do you really see a difference in the term "The day of the Lord, and the Lord's Day?"
There are many that see the Lord's Day as being Sunday, and I'd have to ask why.
Is there really a difference where John was asked to "Come up hither" into heaven in Rev 4:1?
The Apostle Paul experience a similar meeting with our risen Lord.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 11:10:34
You're right, but I thought you said that the Lord's Day was the last day, and there is much judgment and wrath occurs from that point forward.
When is Jesus coming back, and to where?
But if the Lord's Day lasts for a thousand as much of the Church thinks to be the length of Christ's reign, many of the things you listed can happen in that time. I just can't believe that a real thousand years isn't involved in Jesus' reign.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
I'm glad you cited 2 Peter it is like Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night" Which illustrates it is a long indeterminate period of time. The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ , in the very first verse, tells us it is 'signified', meaning symbolic. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is very signified written in very prophetic language.
John, the Apostle, who wrote down the Revelation of Jesus Christ also wrote Gospel of John. In John's account of the Gospel he also recounted Christ's very words in which where Jesus tells about the resurrection & judgment being at/in the last day. Why I cited them. Why I also cited the scriptures that clearly shows Christ's reign is now. These scriptures have to be reconciled together, scripture must reveal scripture. When done one can not draw the conclusion & hold to doctrine that is contrary to scripture. To literalize those verse in chapter 20, It means either Jesus, Martha, & John are wrong in John's Gospel, or John is wrong in chapter 20. If it is literal one or the other is wrong. If it is signified as instructed in the very first verse of the Book then it means a long time like in 2 Peter & the Psalms.
We know Jesus is not wrong. We know Martha is not wrong because the testimony of Jesus confirms her witness. We know that Scripture is not wrong. Therefore must be signified as the first verse of the book tells us & means, what seems to us, a long indeterminate period of time.
That signified scripture states the limits to Satan's binding. It states "he should deceive the nations no more". Jesus talked about this when he talked about the binding of the strong man in Mark 3. Whom Jesus called the Prince of this world. When did Jesus say he would be cast out. meaning bound so the Gospel would go into the world to plunder the strongman's house? Jesus said:
"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out" John 12
Jesus said now.
He said now during passion week before He was crucified. We have witnessed the binding of Satan as the Gospel has been spread around the entire world as our Lord has plundered the strongman's house. We'll know that Satan is unbound when he once again freed to deceive the nations yet again. It will be as the scriptures tells us, the great falling away, the little season. Which many believe may well be upon us now.
: TonkaTim Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 16:17:15
I'm glad you cited 2 Peter it is like Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night" Which illustrates it is a long indeterminate period of time. The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ , in the very first verse, tells us it is 'signified', meaning symbolic. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is very signified written in very prophetic language.
John, the Apostle, who wrote down the Revelation of Jesus Christ also wrote Gospel of John. In John's account of the Gospel he also recounted Christ's very words in which where Jesus tells about the resurrection & judgment being at/in the last day. Why I cited them. Why I also cited the scriptures that clearly shows Christ's reign is now. These scriptures have to be reconciled together, scripture must reveal scripture. When done one can not draw the conclusion & hold to doctrine that is contrary to scripture. To literalize those verse in chapter 20, It means either Jesus, Martha, & John are wrong in John's Gospel, or John is wrong in chapter 20. If it is literal one or the other is wrong. If it is signified as instructed in the very first verse of the Book then it means a long time like in 2 Peter & the Psalms.
We know Jesus is not wrong. We know Martha is not wrong because the testimony of Jesus confirms her witness. We know that Scripture is not wrong. Therefore must be signified as the first verse of the book tells us & means, what seems to us, a long indeterminate period of time.
That signified scripture states the limits to Satan's binding. It states "he should deceive the nations no more". Jesus talked about this when he talked about the binding of the strong man in Mark 3. Whom Jesus called the Prince of this world. When did Jesus say he would be cast out. meaning bound so the Gospel would go into the world to plunder the strongman's house? Jesus said:
"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out" John 12
Jesus said now.
He said now during passion week before He was crucified. We have witnessed the binding of Satan as the Gospel has been spread around the entire world as our Lord has plundered the strongman's house. We'll know that Satan is unbound when he once again freed to deceive the nations yet again. It will be as the scriptures tells us, the great falling away, the little season. Which many believe may well be upon us now.
I'm sorry TonkaTim, but I just don't see your case of Last Day Lord's Day established. My understanding of the Judgment Seat of Christ is that it is ongoing as we walk in these bodies. In Revelation Chapters Two and Three we are told of good and evil, told to either repent, or continue in what we're doing, and John is in heaven being shown different ones arriving at different times as they are caught up unto our Lord. Thanks.
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 16:40:29
I'm sorry TonkaTim, but I just don't see your case of Last Day Lord's Day established.
Regarding the last day I've mainly just quoted the scriptures, especially the testimony of Jesus. I believe they speak strongly declaring the obvious truth.
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 16:40:29
My understanding of the Judgment Seat of Christ is that it is ongoing as we walk in these bodies. [/size]
I quoted John 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out" so yes I do believe their is judgement of this world now too, just as the binding of Satan (prince of this world be cast out) too . We witness this as the children of God are called, as they hear the voice of their master, the Good Shepard, the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the preaching of the Gospel as it has been spread around the entire world. We have witnessed it for many years.
Is it the final judgement when the Children of God receive their reward, their inheritance in the City of God where there is no night?
Or where the ungodly receive their reward of destruction in the lake of fire?
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 16:40:29
In Revelation Chapters Two and Three we are told of good and evil, told to either repent, or continue in what we're doing[/size]
In the letters to the Churches we see judgement of them too. Which we should expect; "17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." 1 Peter 4:17
: TonkaTim Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 17:28:07
Is it the final judgement when the Children of God receive their reward, their inheritance in the City of God where there is no night?
Or where the ungodly receive their reward of destruction in the lake of fire?
In the letters to the Churches we see judgement of them too. Which we should expect; "17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." 1 Peter 4:17
When we die, judgment has already been passed, our reward given the moment we are in Jesus' presence. E.g., Smyrna receives the crown they have if remaing faithful unto death (Rev 2:10): they're the dead that rise first (1 Thes 4:16), also seen first in heaven with Jesus (Rev 4:4 - The 24 elders) when He receives His own throne in Rev 4:2, and they were caught up prior to the tribulation to come. Next are the four beasts, or better translated as Living Ones seen in the midst of the throne (Rev 4:6). These are those caught up alive because the faithfully kept God's word and endured which are the church in Philadelphia (Rev 3:10). Reward? you bet, and this is just a part of it.
What is jointheirship? What is qualifying to be in the bride of Christ reigning with Him (Rev 19:7-8). Will those of the Great Multitude have the same reward that come out of great tribulation (Rev 7:14), instead of crowns as those of Smyrna and Philadelphia, they have palms in their hands (Rev 7:9), and they become servants before the throne of God in His temple instead of of being in the midst of the throne reigning over the earth as kings and priests (Rev 5:10).
: lea Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 11:15:11
Back to the topic of The Bema Seat of Christ:
Our faithful acts (or not) are being recorded now. But the Bema seat judgment surely takes place after the death of the believer. It's still ongoing.
Loss or gain of rewards at the Bema. 1 Cor 13:13-15: "each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire ."
Going by both the context and the Greek, I can't possibly link 2 Corinthians 5:10 with 1 Corinthians 3:13-15.
Context-wise, looking at 2 Corinthians 5:9-11, Paul says why we have as our ambition to be pleasing to Him, and why, therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men; it is because there is a judgment coming that will encompass all. If this judgment was strictly for the saved, then there is no need to persuade men, which I believe refers to preaching to the lost. If this judgment is for all, then the need for this persuasion is very evident.
Greek-wise, this judgment will recompense each person according to what had been done, whether good or evil. The Greek words for both good and evil are used in John 5:29, another judgment-of-all passage. This is significant because the Greek word for evil in those passages is used only 6 times in the N.T. It leans toward moral deeds than anything else.
Unless anybody wants to believe that those in Christ will be judged for any evil deeds, then those evil deeds in 2 Cor 5:10 are committed by the unsaved and this judgment is the same all-encompassing judgment as is John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46, as well as Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 16:03:55
Hi Soterion. Do you really see a difference in the term "The day of the Lord, and the Lord's Day?"
Yes. Any difference will be seen in each context of its usage.
There are many that see the Lord's Day as being Sunday, and I'd have to ask why.
The Lord's day simply means, the day belonging to the Lord, or a day that is in some way peculiar to Him. On the first day of the week Jesus was risen. Afterward, the church regularly meets on the first day of the week, at the least. I think that would be enough to claim it as His day.
Is there really a difference where John was asked to "Come up hither" into heaven in Rev 4:1?
The Apostle Paul experience a similar meeting with our risen Lord.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.[/size]
Well, Rev 4:1 does not refer to the same vision as Rev 1:10-11. By 4:1, John may have already been writing, or had already seen things that he will write down, according to the instructions given to him in 1:10-11.
As to comparing Rev 4 with 2 Cor 12:2-4, I obviously cannot say with any degree of dogmatism, but there appear to be differences. Paul was caught up to someplace called paradise; he doesn't know how he was caught up and he heard things that cannot be shared. John, on the other hand, was in the Spirit and he was told and shown things that he was instructed to write down. The difference may just be a matter of what they were told to say or not say, or the differences in those two experiences may be more significant than that.
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 15:35:35
Hi Lea, and sorry I took so long getting back to you. Your post here certainly pertains to the Judgment Seat of Christ, and what God considers acceptable; all other works goes up as dross and ashes before the testing fire of God's word.
This just came to mind, and that is how many fast. What are they doing it for?
Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
This fast brings reward, and as to being judged after we're dead, our qualifications for reward is established here and now.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Only the sentences in color make sense.
But it doesn't matter anyway. bro ::disco::
: larry2 Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 10:02:01
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
When, and where does this occur?
There is judgement, as in judging something to be right or wrong, and then there is judgement as in the execution of the sentence pronounced after the same. The above scripture is no doubt in relation to the latter because the former is already finished. The execution of the sentence determined for all is begun at Christ's second coming when the saved receive their reward of eternal life, and the wicked begin to receive their reward for rejecting God's salvation. The final execution of which ends in the lake of fire a thousand years later according to scripture.
: soterion Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 19:48:13
Yes. Any difference will be seen in each context of its usage.
The Lord's day simply means, the day belonging to the Lord, or a day that is in some way peculiar to Him. On the first day of the week Jesus was risen. Afterward, the church regularly meets on the first day of the week, at the least. I think that would be enough to claim it as His day.
True enough for sure, but is in every sense of the word "supposition" without other references to Sunday being dessignated as the Lord's Day. Jesus and the others actually went to the Jewish temples also on the seventh day of the week.: soterion Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 19:48:13
Well, Rev 4:1 does not refer to the same vision as Rev 1:10-11. By 4:1, John may have already been writing, or had already seen things that he will write down, according to the instructions given to him in 1:10-11.
I really doubt John could be accused of have something to bring to the table as it were, because it was Jesus sending His angel to show him what to write according to Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (it is at this time John is told to write.)
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . .
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.
I transcribed this following teaching from CD's by my friend Gene Hawkins.
"Revelation 1:10. "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." Now we've come to one of those significant things absolutely vital that we understand beginning here with Verse Ten, and this is not
just an incidental thing; it is just absolutely filled with significant and symbolic language. "I was in the Spirit" should actually be translated "I was in Spirit" on the Lord's Day, and it's so important we understand that because John is not talking about being gathered on the Sabbath, Sunday, or any other select day; he says I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day as opposed to man's day. At this present time we are on the brink of leaving the times of the Gentiles which are man's day, and its contrast which is returning to Jewish times, or the Lord's times. Next we read a very significant portion of scripture here when John says "I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me." Now John was not literally at the Lord's Day when he was on the Isle of Patmos, but he said I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day which means that the Spirit transported him to the end of this age, because he heard a voice behind me, a great voice as of a trumpet. Now when it says behind me, it means that the things that he saw had already taken place. They were behind him and he had to turn around in order to see them." : soterion Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 19:48:13
As to comparing Rev 4 with 2 Cor 12:2-4, I obviously cannot say with any degree of dogmatism, but there appear to be differences. Paul was caught up to someplace called paradise; he doesn't know how he was caught up and he heard things that cannot be shared. John, on the other hand, was in the Spirit and he was told and shown things that he was instructed to write down. The difference may just be a matter of what they were told to say or not say, or the differences in those two experiences may be more significant than that.
I do not know either brother, but I sure suspect the same experience of John and Paul.
: Amo Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 10:50:27
There is judgement, as in judging something to be right or wrong, and then there is judgement as in the execution of the sentence pronounced after the same. The above scripture is no doubt in relation to the latter because the former is already finished. The execution of the sentence determined for all is begun at Christ's second coming when the saved receive their reward of eternal life, and the wicked begin to receive their reward for rejecting God's salvation. The final execution of which ends in the lake of fire a thousand years later according to scripture.
Hi AMO, would you consider that we who are caught up to be with the Lord in our respective orders, have already received our reward when we see Him, and any judgment was afforded us prior to that?
For instance, a sin unto death is certainly judgment; Moses experienced that on Mount Nebo (Deut 32:50), but we see him with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. (Mar 9:4) Thanks.
: larry2 Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 11:02:34
True enough for sure, but is in every sense of the word "supposition" without other references to Sunday being dessignated as the Lord's Day. Jesus and the others actually went to the Jewish temples also on the seventh day of the week.
I am simply applying what to me is the best definition of Lord's day that I can in that context. There is nothing revealed about that day to make me apply any other definition, certainly not the Last Day or a last day of anything, or some particular day of judgment or anything else. For example, this interpretation, provided by you or your source, makes no sense:
"I was in the Spirit" should actually be translated "I was in Spirit" on the Lord's Day, and it's so important we understand that because John is not talking about being gathered on the Sabbath, Sunday, or any other select day; he says I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day as opposed to man's day. At this present time we are on the brink of leaving the times of the Gentiles which are man's day, and its contrast which is returning to Jewish times, or the Lord's times. Next we read a very significant portion of scripture here when John says "I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me." Now John was not literally at the Lord's Day when he was on the Isle of Patmos, but he said I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day which means that the Spirit transported him to the end of this age, because he heard a voice behind me, a great voice as of a trumpet. Now when it says behind me, it means that the things that he saw had already taken place. They were behind him and he had to turn around in order to see them."
The quote reads like a desperate attempt to complicate the context more than it has to be, just so it can fit it in some eschatology that also makes no sense. Sorry about the negativity, but you have to admit it is very over the top, speculatively speaking.
The reality is that John was under the influence of God's Spirit on some particular day he called the Lord's day, a period of time that existed just the same for everybody else, and he was told to write down what he sees into a book and to give that book to seven specifically named churches in Asia. That's all we need to take from Rev 1:10-11.
As for Jesus and the others going to the synagogue, as we read about in the gospel accounts, of course. They were Jewish and the Law containing the commandment to obey the sabbath was still in place. When you read in Acts about any of the apostles going to the synagogues, you should be able to read and understand that they went there for evangelism, not worship. That was the best place and time to meet with an audience of Jews when the apostles' goal was to preach Jesus to them.
: larry2 Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 15:35:35
Your post here certainly pertains to the Judgment Seat of Christ, and what God considers acceptable; all other works goes up as dross and ashes before the testing fire of God's word.
This just came to mind, and that is how many fast. What are they doing it for?
Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
This fast brings reward, and as to being judged after we're dead, our qualifications for reward is established here and now.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
: lea Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 21:37:08
Only the sentences in color make sense.
But it doesn't matter anyway. bro ::disco::
Hi Sis. I just noticed that you listed your scripture in a previous quote as 1 Cor 13:13-15, and it is in fact 1 Cor 3:13-15
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
What I was attempting to show in posting fasting is that they were fasting for the wrong reasons. The fire of God's word will not reward that.
Repeated here for new comers to the thread:
Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
That is the form of judgment we read of with the churches addressed in Revelation Chapters Two & Three that will not receive reward.
Ephesus will not be rewarded for this following judgment: Rev 2:4 . . . thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam . .
Balac cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Those practicing those things will not be rewarded for it. Repent.
And it continues with the church in Thyatira said to even go into great tribulation if she didn't repent. Rev 2.22.
: larry2 Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 11:02:34
"I was in the Spirit" should actually be translated "I was in Spirit" on the Lord's Day, and it's so important we understand that because John is not talking about being gathered on the Sabbath, Sunday, or any other select day; he says I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day as opposed to man's day. At this present time we are on the brink of leaving the times of the Gentiles which are man's day, and its contrast which is returning to Jewish times, or the Lord's times. Next we read a very significant portion of scripture here when John says "I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me." Now John was not literally at the Lord's Day when he was on the Isle of Patmos, but he said I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day which means that the Spirit transported him to the end of this age, because he heard a voice behind me, a great voice as of a trumpet. Now when it says behind me, it means that the things that he saw had already taken place. They were behind him and he had to turn around in order to see them."
: soterion Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 15:01:10
The quote reads like a desperate attempt to complicate the context more than it has to be, just so it can fit it in some eschatology that also makes no sense. Sorry about the negativity, but you have to admit it is very over the top, speculatively speaking.
The reality is that John was under the influence of God's Spirit on some particular day he called the Lord's day, . . .
Would it agree more with your thought of the Lord's Day" being called the first day of the week? Yeah, on the first day of the week I was called up to heaven in Rev 4:1 to be shown Jesus receiving His own throne in Rev 4:2, the 24 elders of the church gathered round about His throne clothed in white rainment with crowns on their heads (Rev 4:4), the four beasts in the midst of Jesus' throne in Rev 4:6, and in Rev 4:8 And the four beasts . . . rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
That sort of fits the context of write that thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter we read of in Rev1:14?
: larry2 Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 15:47:47
Would it agree more with your thought of the Lord's Day" being called the first day of the week? Yeah, on the first day of the week I was called up to heaven in Rev 4:1 to be shown Jesus receiving His own throne in Rev 4:2, the 24 elders of the church gathered round about His throne clothed in white rainment with crowns on their heads (Rev 4:4), the four beasts in the midst of Jesus' throne in Rev 4:6, and in Rev 4:8 And the four beasts . . . rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
That sort of fits the context of write that thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter we read of in Rev1:14?
Three points.
First, you don't know that Rev 4:1 was on the same day as Rev 1:10. That's just further speculation on your part.
Second, is it possible that John was told on a first day of the week to write those things? Yeah, I would have to say that it is possible. In fact, Jesus conquered death on a first day of the week and (possibly on a first day of the week) John was told to write the book of Rev, to show the churches Jesus will conquer their enemy. Of course, I'm not being dogmatic about it; just that I have been shown no better option for what the Lord's day is in Rev 1:10.
Third, you still haven't identified the Lamb who takes the scroll from the hand of the One who sits on the throne in Rev chapters 4 and 5. Read those two chapters and then tell me who it is.
: soterion Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 17:08:06
Three points.
First, you don't know that Rev 4:1 was on the same day as Rev 1:10. That's just further speculation on your part.
Second, is it possible that John was told on a first day of the week to write those things? Yeah, I would have to say that it is possible. In fact, Jesus conquered death on a first day of the week and (possibly on a first day of the week) John was told to write the book of Rev, to show the churches Jesus will conquer their enemy. Of course, I'm not being dogmatic about it; just that I have been shown no better option for what the Lord's day is in Rev 1:10.
That's fine with me, although I reckon we just won't agree.
: soterion Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 17:08:06
Third, you still haven't identified the Lamb who takes the scroll from the hand of the One who sits on the throne in Rev chapters 4 and 5. Read those two chapters and then tell me who it is.
I can see no one worthy other than the Lamb of God Jesus; our Lord.
: larry2 Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 17:35:57
I can see no one worthy other than the Lamb of God Jesus; our Lord.
Okay, great. ::smile::
Since the Lamb is Jesus, then do you still contend repeatedly that the One on the throne is Jesus?
You keep posting that in Rev 4:2 is where Jesus begins sitting on His throne. However, in 5:5-6, the Lamb, Jesus, takes the scroll from the One who is sitting on the throne. Either the One on the throne is God the Father, or Jesus is taking the scroll out of His own hand, kinda like Jesus is on the throne and not on the throne at the same time.
::pondering::
: soterion Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 18:37:13
Since the Lamb is Jesus, then do you still contend repeatedly that the One on the throne is Jesus?
Yes I do. In Rev 4:4 the 24 elders are round about the throne of Rev 4:2. The 4 beasts are round about, and in the midst of the throne in Rev 4:6, and then we read in Rev 5:6, And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Is this the same Jesus that was on a throne in Rev 4:2?)
: soterion Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 18:37:13
You keep posting that in Rev 4:2 is where Jesus begins sitting on His throne. However, in 5:5-6, the Lamb, Jesus, takes the scroll from the One who is sitting on the throne. Either the One on the throne is God the Father, or Jesus is taking the scroll out of His own hand, kinda like Jesus is on the throne and not on the throne at the same time.
::pondering::
Does our Father have a throne? Does Jesus now, or will He have a throne?
Jesus does say this in Rev 1:8, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Notice Rev 3:21 and two different thrones mentioned. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Where and when did Jesus get this throne?)
Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him (Who is this?) that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:5. "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." ( Who is this? Jesus?)
Revelation 5:6. "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain. (Who is this? Jesus of Rev 4:2? Was Jesus made strong in weakness? - A lion became a Lamb?)
What gave Jesus the power to sit on the throne? Dying on the cross as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world? Will He now reign as King of kings, and Lords?
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain . . .
And I'll say thanks now, as you're asking me things I haven't studied in a very long time.
: larry2 Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 21:27:48
Yes I do. In Rev 4:4 the 24 elders are round about the throne of Rev 4:2. The 4 beasts are round about, and in the midst of the throne in Rev 4:6, and then we read in Rev 5:6, And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Is this the same Jesus that was on a throne in Rev 4:2?)
Does our Father have a throne? Does Jesus now, or will He have a throne?
Jesus does say this in Rev 1:8, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Notice Rev 3:21 and two different thrones mentioned. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Where and when did Jesus get this throne?)
Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him (Who is this?) that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:5. "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." ( Who is this? Jesus?)
Revelation 5:6. "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain. (Who is this? Jesus of Rev 4:2? Was Jesus made strong in weakness? - A lion became a Lamb?)
What gave Jesus the power to sit on the throne? Dying on the cross as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world? Will He now reign as King of kings, and Lords?
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain . . .
And I'll say thanks now, as you're asking me things I haven't studied in a very long time.
Well, you have Jesus taking the scroll from Himself in Rev 5:5-7. ::headscratch::
I don't want to keep posting about this, as I am sure it will get a bit tiring hearing the same things over and over, but just consider one more point one more time. The One who is sitting on the throne in 4:2 is the same One sitting on the throne in 5:1 and 5:7. In 5:7, Jesus, the Lamb, takes the scroll out of the hand of Him who sits on the throne, the same One on the same throne in 4:2. I do not believe John is describing Jesus as the Lamb taking the scroll out of the hand of Jesus as the King.
The One on the throne throughout that narrative (4:1-5:14) is the Father.
: soterion Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 21:57:35
Well, you have Jesus taking the scroll from Himself in Rev 5:5-7. ::headscratch::
I don't want to keep posting about this, as I am sure it will get a bit tiring hearing the same things over and over
The One on the throne throughout that narrative (4:1-5:14) is the Father.
OK, I'll try to not bore you further. ::tippinghat::
: larry2 Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 22:19:56
OK, I'll try to not bore you further. ::tippinghat::
I'm not bored. I just don't want you to get frustrated with me about this. ::noworries::
: soterion Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 22:23:49
I'm not bored. I just don't want you to get frustrated with me about this. ::noworries::
I've got the time to listen. Please give me your narritive of Revelation using scripture.
: larry2 Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 23:30:15
I've got the time to listen. Please give me your narritive of Revelation using scripture.
Of course I'm not going to go there. As if I want to open that can of worms. ::juggle::
I have already shared what I believe to be the occasion of the book, so that will suffice for here and now. No doubt we will discuss more as time goes on. ::smile::
: larry2 Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 23:30:15
I...... narrative of Revelation using scripture.
I don't understand. What is that? What is a narrative of Revelation -- whether or not using Scripture? What exactly are you looking for?
: 4WD Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 07:04:21
I don't understand. What is that? What is a narrative of Revelation -- whether or not using Scripture? What exactly are you looking for?
Good morning. We disagree who Jesus is in scripture as pertaining to Rev 4:2, and what the Lord's Day is that John was at when He received the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The point being is the three viewpoints shown John from that point in time. Was John show things from somewhere around 95 AD, or when Jesus begins His rule in heaven some 2000 + years?
Presently my understanding is that the Judgment Seat of Christ is ongoing of the Church that we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three. When is that over, and Jesus takes the rulership He has been given? (Mt 28:18). It's rather certain we do not see all authority and power (1 Cor 15:24) put down of usurping nations at this time.
Does Jesus receive a throne, and when is it? We read in Act_7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool. Is that the context of being King of kings, and Lord of lords?
: larry2 Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 11:20:34
Hi AMO, would you consider that we who are caught up to be with the Lord in our respective orders, have already received our reward when we see Him, and any judgment was afforded us prior to that?
For instance, a sin unto death is certainly judgment; Moses experienced that on Mount Nebo (Deut 32:50), but we see him with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. (Mar 9:4) Thanks.
Again, the future judgement as in examination of evidence is for creations sake, not God's. He of course knows where everyone stands at all times. As far as being caught up to the Lord, I believe Paul's testimony concerning the timing of such. Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and whoever the saints who were raised at Christ's crucifixion were, are scriptural examples of those miraculously caught up before the time which Paul allocates to the rest of us.
1 These 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Gen 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
2 Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Mt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
: larry2 Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 11:04:18
Presently my understanding is that the Judgment Seat of Christ is ongoing of the Church that we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.
The Judgment Seat of Christ [Greek -- Bema] is a judgment by Jesus Christ upon his return of each of us individually for the things done whether good or bad. It is not a judgment concerning entrance to heaven or hell. That in fact is not a judgment at all, rather that is a decision, a selection that is made by each of us ourselves by obeying or not the gospel.
: 4WD Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 15:35:29
The Judgment Seat of Christ [Greek -- Bema] is a judgment by Jesus Christ upon his return of each of us individually for the things done whether good or bad. It is not a judgment concerning entrance to heaven or hell. That in fact is not a judgment at all, rather that is a decision, a selection that is made by each of us ourselves by obeying or not the gospel.
I agree on the judgment seat not concerning our eternal life, but what do you think of the judgment against the church in Thyatira? Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Judgment here for believers does not extend to our standing in Christ, but consequence here, and loss of reward we could have for eternity if I stating it correctly.
: larry2 Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 17:25:22
I agree on the judgment seat not concerning our eternal life, but what do you think of the judgment against the church in Thyatira? Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Judgment here for believers does not extend to our standing in Christ, but consequence here, and loss of reward we could have for eternity if I stating it correctly.
Why do you change subjects every time someone answers you?
Here are Scriptures that show that the Apostolic church was living in the final days of crisis before the Resurrection of the dead and the Judgment:
"...'There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.' ...And as he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment which is about to come...." (Acts. 24:15, 25; Jn. 5:28-29)
"...He has fixed a Day in which He is about to judge the world..." (Acts 17:31)
"...Christ Jesus, Who is about to judge the living and the dead." (II Tim. 4:1)
"...The Judge is standing right at the door." (Jms. 5:9)
"...They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead." (I Peter 4:5)
"...but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which is about to consume the enemies. (Lk. 19:27)
Revelation 11:1-18 reveals that God judged the living and the dead, the just and the unjust, at the fall of Jerusalem. After Jerusalem was trodden under foot for 3 1/2 years, (Rev. 11:2) a tenth of the City fell in an earthquake (Rev. 11:13) and seven thousand men were killed. (Rev. 11:13) Then "quickly" afterward, (Rev. 11:14) "the kingdom of this world" became the eternal Kingdom of the Father and the Son. (Rev. 11:15)
"The kingdom of this world" was the kingdom of the Pharisees and chief priests. (Amos 9:8; Matt. 8:12; Heb. 9:1) The Church became the eternal Kingdom of the Father and the Son (Compare Jn. 14:23; Rev. 22:3) when the unredeemed sons of the kingdom were cast out in 70 (Matt. 8:12):
"Therefore I say to you [chief priests, Pharisees and elders], the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it." (Matt. 21:43)
"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom." (Lk. 12:32)
lea - Ditto, ditto, ditto.
I would also bring up the very same texts that prove that the judgment seat of Christ was an event that occurred at the close of those final days involving the fall of Jerusalem. The predictions of imminence for this event are present in almost every book of the New Testament.
These texts that you have listed are nothing less than a reflection of the same promise that Christ gave in Matthew 16:27-28: "For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works" (just as stated about the judgment seat of Christ in II Cor. 5:10). "Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." This of necessity had to occur within the natural lifespan of some of those Christ was speaking to at that moment. In other words, this particular judgment seat event is long past.
However, since "we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ...", then this universal requirement in II Cor. 5:10 and Romans 14:10 for ALL mankind to appear would necessarily require that another resurrection and judgment must occur at the close of human history, at a third coming of Christ. A third coming of Christ is the only way to reconcile the truths found in all these scriptures above.
I would have just a couple slight variations of opinion from your comment. It was DURING (not after) the 3 1/2 years of the Zealots treading Jerusalem underfoot that the "tenth of the city" fell in the earthquake, and the seven thousand men were killed during the Idumean attack on Jerusalem dated around AD 68. This was when the two witnesses, the two former high priests Joshua ben Gamaliel and Ananus, were slain in the streets of Jerusalem and their stripped bodies left unburied. An actual earthquake did occur in Jerusalem that night of the violent storm. The time span from AD 68 until AD 70 still qualifies as "quickly" following after this earthquake, though, as you have said.
One more thing: it was more than just A SINGLE kingdom that was given to Christ in the Revelation 11:15 verse. The YLT and KJV translations of this verse claim that it is PLURAL KINGDOMS that were given to Christ then. I take this to mean that all the demonic powers of the "divine council" were dissolved which had held sway in every one of the nations of the world until that time. With the devil and his angels thrown into the Lake of Fire that was AD 70 Jerusalem's second death, this was the eradication of demonic evil from the world, and their influence within the nations as evil, fallen members of the divine council. God destroyed them all, as Isaiah 24 and 27 had long ago predicted that God would do by the end of the siege of Jerusalem.
This destruction in AD 70 Jerusalem of all the evil, fallen members of the divine council which had exercised deception within the nations will explain just how Daniel's statue made of different metals could SIMULTANEOUSLY all be crushed into dust at the same time, with the wind carrying the dust away, so that it would be found no more. We know that the Roman empire continued AFTER the AD 70 era, and that the empires of Babylon, the Medes and Persians, and the Greeks had all fallen long BEFORE the AD 70 era. So it couldn't be those empires themselves that were crushed to dust simultaneously; it had to be the demonic power structure of the divine council that had been working within those nations all along that was crushed by the stone cut without hands.
We remember that Satan had once boasted to Christ during the 40 days' wilderness temptation that the KINGDOMS (plural) of this world had been given unto him, and that he could give them to whomever he wished (Luke 4:5-7). These are the KINGDOMS (plural) that became Christ's, once Satan and his angels were destroyed in the Lake of Fire during the AD 70 siege of Jerusalem.
3 Resurrections said:
>>>once Satan and his angels were destroyed in the Lake of Fire during the AD 70 siege of Jerusalem. <<<
Satan has not been "destroyed" in the Lake of Fire in 70 AD---I have no idea where you get that idea. Satan WILL BE bound for
a thousand years in the future--He is presently consigned to this earth and is filled with rage. That is why he attempted to destroy the Jewish
people during WW2---his hate for God's people knows no bounds. Your theology is really all over the place.
Satan is bound now.
fish153 - Where did I get this idea? Simple. And I should hope that my theology would be from "all over the place". I attempt to base my theology on the ENTIRE body of scripture as a homogenous whole - not a piece here and there taken out of context.
Satan was bound for a literal thousand years that ENDED with the "First Resurrection". That's a plain fact from Revelation 20:5.
The "First Resurrection" event was when Christ arose from the dead as the FIRST-FRUITS, along with the 144,000 other First-fruits. That's also a plain fact, since scripture goes to great pains to describe Christ as the "FIRST-begotten from among the dead", the "FIRST-born", and the "FIRST-fruits". First means first. There is, and can be, ONLY ONE "First Resurrection" event. Since the "First Resurrection" event has been history ever since AD 33, then the millennium which ENDED when the "First Resurrection" occurred is ALSO history. The literal thousand-year millennium has been over since AD 33.
Satan was loosed for a "short time" and a "little season" following the "First Resurrection" in AD 33. Also a plain fact from Revelation 20:3.
That "short time" (Rev. 12:12) and "LITTLE season" (Rev. 20:3) when Satan was loosed from being bound is naturally shorter than a "LONG season" which scripture has defined as a duration of 40 years in length for the wilderness wanderings of the nation of Israel after leaving Egypt. Also a plain fact from Joshua 24:7 ("...ye dwelt in the wilderness a LONG SEASON.")
Therefore, Satan's "little season" of being loosed (less than 40 years after the "First Resurrection" of Christ and the 144,000 First-fruits) lasted only until he and his evil angels were imprisoned in Jerusalem for the duration of the AD 66-AD 70 siege. A fact from Revelation 18:2. "EVERY UNCLEAN SPIRIT" - no exceptions - was imprisoned in Jerusalem at that time - a "Great Tribulation" indeed for the inhabitants of Jerusalem during those years. There has never been worse tribulation than this either before or since then; to have the entire demonic world present in one city for that length of time in order to possess individuals and to torment them.
Isaiah 24 prophesied that "after many days" of being gathered and imprisoned, this host of evil angels and the "kings of the earth" (all those ex-high priests of Israel) would all be "found wanting". That means GONE, in Bible lingo. Not just "bound", as 4WD is suggesting, but GONE. The Levitical high priesthood has indeed been gone since AD 70. Why would the case be any different if God said that this host of evil angels would also be gone at the same time as the high priests?
In addition, "in THAT DAY", Satan the dragon, that crooked serpent, would be SLAIN by God, according to Isaiah 27:1, just after the resurrection described in Isaiah 26:19-21. A SLAIN dragon and serpent means a DEAD dragon and serpent. If you happen to have read my comment #18 in the post called "The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden", I talked about Satan who was the "prince of Tyre" - the anointed cherub that had been in Eden. God promised to destroy this anointed cherub so that "...NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANY MORE" after this cherub had been turned into ashes.
Satan was indeed destroyed along with his angels in the AD 70 Lake of Fire that was Jerusalem's "Second Death".
The conditions of the Jewish holocaust which you mention were not instigated by Satan or any other demonic entity. Those horrific actions, as well as any other genocides perpetrated upon various people groups throughout history, spring solely from the degenerate desires that lie within the hearts of all mankind (Matt 15:19-20b - "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man..."
You are disregarding the evil that man can dream up on his own. After the fall, humanity has never been dependent upon the evil angels or Satan to initiate our evil actions. A fallen Adam sired fallen children. One kind will always beget after its own kind - also a fact from Job 14:4. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one."
Satan at one time WAS consigned to this earth when he was cast out of heaven to the earth after Christ's ascension in AD 33 (John 12:31 and 14:30). He WAS loosed for his "short time" then, and WAS filled with great rage at that time. He WAS walking around like a raging lion during that "little season" after the "First Resurrection" in AD 33, but that less-than-40-years little season of his is looooong gone since AD 70. You are being spooked by a character that has long since been turned into ashes, according to the fate God decreed for him in Ezekiel 28:17-19 and Isaiah 27:1.
As God promised in numerous other places in scripture, we have been delivered from this major enemy of ours at the time God destined for this. The remaining enemy we now have to contend with is the one we carry within us as fallen children of Adam's race. It's actually a more dangerous enemy than Satan or demons could ever have been, because we underestimate our own tendency to wickedness and rebellion.
: 4WD Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 13:22:18Satan is bound now.
OR, he could be loosed! Yes, he was bound at the cross and shall be loosed for a little season at the end of this world, just before the coming of Jesus Christ.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 17:14:23not a piece here and there taken out of context.
Like you have done in your post. It would take too much of my time today to even attempt to correct what you have posted. We went over this with you a few months ago, but if time allows then maybe I will do so again, or find the thread where we discuss this.
: RB Tue Apr 17, 2018 - 03:37:15
OR, he could be loosed! Yes, he was bound at the cross and shall be loosed for a little season at the end of this world, just before the coming of Jesus Christ.
Indeed!! But, personally, I don't believe we are at that stage yet.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 17:14:23
fish153 - Where did I get this idea? Simple. And I should hope that my theology would be from "all over the place". I attempt to base my theology on the ENTIRE body of scripture as a homogenous whole - not a piece here and there taken out of context.
Satan was bound for a literal thousand years that ENDED with the "First Resurrection". That's a plain fact from Revelation 20:5.
The "First Resurrection" event was when Christ arose from the dead as the FIRST-FRUITS, along with the 144,000 other First-fruits. That's also a plain fact, since scripture goes to great pains to describe Christ as the "FIRST-begotten from among the dead", the "FIRST-born", and the "FIRST-fruits". First means first. There is, and can be, ONLY ONE "First Resurrection" event. Since the "First Resurrection" event has been history ever since AD 33, then the millennium which ENDED when the "First Resurrection" occurred is ALSO history. The literal thousand-year millennium has been over since AD 33.
Satan was loosed for a "short time" and a "little season" following the "First Resurrection" in AD 33. Also a plain fact from Revelation 20:3.
That "short time" (Rev. 12:12) and "LITTLE season" (Rev. 20:3) when Satan was loosed from being bound is naturally shorter than a "LONG season" which scripture has defined as a duration of 40 years in length for the wilderness wanderings of the nation of Israel after leaving Egypt. Also a plain fact from Joshua 24:7 ("...ye dwelt in the wilderness a LONG SEASON.")
Therefore, Satan's "little season" of being loosed (less than 40 years after the "First Resurrection" of Christ and the 144,000 First-fruits) lasted only until he and his evil angels were imprisoned in Jerusalem for the duration of the AD 66-AD 70 siege. A fact from Revelation 18:2. "EVERY UNCLEAN SPIRIT" - no exceptions - was imprisoned in Jerusalem at that time - a "Great Tribulation" indeed for the inhabitants of Jerusalem during those years. There has never been worse tribulation than this either before or since then; to have the entire demonic world present in one city for that length of time in order to possess individuals and to torment them.
Isaiah 24 prophesied that "after many days" of being gathered and imprisoned, this host of evil angels and the "kings of the earth" (all those ex-high priests of Israel) would all be "found wanting". That means GONE, in Bible lingo. Not just "bound", as 4WD is suggesting, but GONE. The Levitical high priesthood has indeed been gone since AD 70. Why would the case be any different if God said that this host of evil angels would also be gone at the same time as the high priests?
In addition, "in THAT DAY", Satan the dragon, that crooked serpent, would be SLAIN by God, according to Isaiah 27:1, just after the resurrection described in Isaiah 26:19-21. A SLAIN dragon and serpent means a DEAD dragon and serpent. If you happen to have read my comment #18 in the post called "The Cherub that Guarded the Garden, in Eden", I talked about Satan who was the "prince of Tyre" - the anointed cherub that had been in Eden. God promised to destroy this anointed cherub so that "...NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANY MORE" after this cherub had been turned into ashes.
Satan was indeed destroyed along with his angels in the AD 70 Lake of Fire that was Jerusalem's "Second Death".
The conditions of the Jewish holocaust which you mention were not instigated by Satan or any other demonic entity. Those horrific actions, as well as any other genocides perpetrated upon various people groups throughout history, spring solely from the degenerate desires that lie within the hearts of all mankind (Matt 15:19-20b - "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man..."
You are disregarding the evil that man can dream up on his own. After the fall, humanity has never been dependent upon the evil angels or Satan to initiate our evil actions. A fallen Adam sired fallen children. One kind will always beget after its own kind - also a fact from Job 14:4. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one."
Satan at one time WAS consigned to this earth when he was cast out of heaven to the earth after Christ's ascension in AD 33 (John 12:31 and 14:30). He WAS loosed for his "short time" then, and WAS filled with great rage at that time. He WAS walking around like a raging lion during that "little season" after the "First Resurrection" in AD 33, but that less-than-40-years little season of his is looooong gone since AD 70. You are being spooked by a character that has long since been turned into ashes, according to the fate God decreed for him in Ezekiel 28:17-19 and Isaiah 27:1.
As God promised in numerous other places in scripture, we have been delivered from this major enemy of ours at the time God destined for this. The remaining enemy we now have to contend with is the one we carry within us as fallen children of Adam's race. It's actually a more dangerous enemy than Satan or demons could ever have been, because we underestimate our own tendency to wickedness and rebellion.
That has to be the most laughable, unintelligent and nonsensical view of history ever to be presented anywhere by anyone.
4WD - I appreciate that you are unapologetically bold in your comments, and you're welcome to your own opinion, of course. But I should also say that what you have offered is the purest form of an ad hominem argument. Have you nothing of substance to offer that would counter the references I have linked together above, and the interpretation I have laid out? I know I usually present a lot of material at once, but try bringing up just one point to refute, using a unified list of scriptures to do so - not simply tradition that many of us were steeped in from childhood on this subject.
It never ceases to amaze me how fiercely people wish to defend the CURRENT existence of Satan and his minions in this world. It's as if I had banned a beloved father from attending a family reunion. A true "Berean" of scripture would receive this prospect of the world being purged of demonic influence "with all joy", and then go plunge into scripture themselves to diligently prove me right or wrong according to the words of God.
Just a suggestion...
RB - I, too, am borrowing time from a business workload to write. Got to keep peanut butter on the table, though.
I do recall when we discussed the definition of the "First Resurrection", if that is what you are referring to. If I remember correctly, you simultaneously agreed that Christ WAS the "First Resurrection", but then you also stated that this singular event can't really be put on a timeline. In this way, you attempted to deny that Revelation dates the millennium's END from the day of that "First Resurrection". Can't agree with you there, brother. I think Revelation is pretty plain in that regard. In brief, as I see Revelation presenting it, "The millennium ENDED when Christ ASCENDED, and the devil DESCENDED". Satan was not BOUND at the cross, but was LOOSED to wreak havoc in the world after Christ's first ascension on resurrection day.
But if we go into a full-scale discussion of that millennium here, we would drift too far from the OP subject of the judgment seat of Christ...
: 3 Resurrections Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 17:14:23
fish153 - Where did I get this idea? Simple. And I should hope that my theology would be from "all over the place". I attempt to base my theology on the ENTIRE body of scripture as a homogenous whole - not a piece here and there taken out of context.
Satan was bound for a literal thousand years that ENDED with the "First Resurrection". That's a plain fact from Revelation 20:5.
When looking at any vision John is writing in Revelation, we should look at the elements, whether events, objects, persons, or time statements, and realize we are reading figures or symbols. You are looking for the thousand years to be literal when you should be looking for what that time span represents. Just like we should look for what the pit and the chains represent, since they are not literal physical objects.
: RB Tue Apr 17, 2018 - 03:37:15
OR, he could be loosed! Yes, he was bound at the cross and shall be loosed for a little season at the end of this world, just before the coming of Jesus Christ.
I have to place the binding of Satan in Rev 20 to coincide with the end of the beast and false prophet at the end of chapter 19, meaning that the binding of Satan was the end of the persecution of the church by the beast.
: 3 Resurrections Tue Apr 17, 2018 - 07:28:31But I should also say that what you have offered is the purest form of an ad hominem argument. Have you nothing of substance to offer that would counter the references I have linked together above, and the interpretation I have laid out?
Just a suggestion...
That was not an ad hominem argument. I did not attack you. I attacked the "laughable, unintelligent and nonsensical view of history" that you present.
: soterion Tue Apr 17, 2018 - 08:22:14I have to place the binding of Satan in Rev 20 to coincide with the end of the beast and false prophet at the end of chapter 19, meaning that the binding of Satan was the end of the persecution of the church by the beast.
A long post that most probably will not bother to read. Oh well.....
The Binding of Satan
The first three verses of Revelation 20 describes an event that surely sends a thrill through every Christian's heart; the binding of Satan. The text says,
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.My Strong conviction is that Jesus bound the devil when he came the first time. Many find it extremely difficult to accept this idea, mainly because they hear the words "binding of Satan" and formulate their own idea of what this must mean before they examine the Biblical data. If Satan is bound, they think, then there should not be any sin or even temptation on the earth. But sin obviously was not eliminated by Christ's first coming and is still abundant on the earth today. Would one not have to be blind to think that Satan is bound in times like these?
The key to understanding the binding of Satan is to pay close attention to what the Bible actually says about it, not only in Rev 20:1-3 but elsewhere in the NT as well. Regarding the latter we begin with the way Scripture describes the purpose of Christ's first coming. Among other things, it is specifically taught that Jesus came to deal with the devil. 1 John 3:8 says, "The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil." Among Satan's works are falsehood and death (John 8:44; Heb 2:14), but Jesus came "to testify to the truth" (John 18:37; see John 8:31-47). He has already "abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10).
Jesus came not only to destroy Satan's works but to "destroy" Satan himself. Hebrews 2:14 clearly states that Jesus came the first time "so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death – that is, the devil" The word rendered "destroy" by the NIV (
katargeo) does not necessarily mean "to annihilate, to abolish completely." Obviously Jesus did not do this to Satan at his first coming. But the word also can mean "to set aside, to make ineffective, to nullify, to render powerless." This is the better understanding here, as in the NASB: Christ come to "render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."
Either way this is very strong language. John says Jesus came specifically to destroy the devil's works; Hebrews says he came to render the devil powerless. We must ask, if this is why Jesus came, did he actually accomplish these things or did he fail? Surely it would be blasphemous to say the latter. Therefore we conclude that Jesus destroyed Satan's works and rendered him powerless from "the binding of Satan" in Rev 20:1-3). If anything, the language of 1 John and Hebrews is even stronger than that of Revelation 20.
What about the expression, "the binding of Satan"? Does this specific language appear elsewhere in Scripture" The answer is yes. In Matt 12:29 (and Mark 3:27) it is used to describe what Jesus was doing during his first advent. Throughout Jesus earthly ministry he was already limiting Satan's power, especially through his many victorious encounters with demonic spirits who had taken over people's bodies. By casting out demons Jesus was demonstrating his power over Satan's kingdom; he was winding the chains around the devil's neck.
Jesus made this very claim in connection with an exorcism recorded in Matt 12:22-30 (see Mark 3:22-27; Luke 11:14-23). Here Jesus explains that in casting out demons he is not working
with Satan but
against him. He uses the illustration of a strong man who is holding people captive in his house, and a stronger man who attacks and overpowers the captor and sets the captives free (Luke 11:21-22). As he explains in Matt 12:29, "or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry of his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house." By casting out demons Jesus was already in the process of binding the devil (the "strong man") during his earthly ministry.
Jesus also gave his disciples the authority to cast our demons (Matt 10:1). In Luke 10:1-20 he sent out 70 evangelists with similar authority. When they returned, they joyfully reported, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name" (Luke 10:17). Jesus replied, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning" (Luke 10:18). Satan's "fall from heaven" here is not his prehistoric, initial sin; it refers to the defeat he was experiencing through Christ's power at the hands of the disciples at that very time. This is the same event described symbolically in Rev 12:7-9,
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.Again this is not Satan's initial sin, but his defeat at the hands of the Messiah at the latter's first coming (Rev 12:1-6).
The death blow against Satan was struck in the death and resurrection of Jesus (see Gen 3:15; John 12:31-33; Col 2:15). On the eve of his crucifixion Jesus announced his imminent mortal combat with the devil (John 14:30). Through his own death he rendered Satan powerless (Heb 2:14), and through his resurrection the victory was complete. The risen victor declares, "I am the first and the last, the living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades " (Rev 1:17-18). The keys here are the same as "the key of the abyss" in Rev 20:1. A key is symbolic of power and authority. Through his death and resurrection Jesus gained power over the abyss – realm of death, Satan's proper domain; and with that power he both locks Satan himself in the abyss and rescues those who have been held captive there (Heb 2:15). Revelation 20:1-3 thus symbolically represents Christ's present control over Satan and his works, and the consequent limitation of his power.
Some will still be skeptical that "the binding of Satan" has been a reality since Christ's first coming. Again this is because they have created their own idea of what this should entail, i.e., the earth should be a perfect place, free from sin and filled with righteousness, peace, and prosperity. But this is not how things have been. So how can this be the millennium? How can we accept the idea that Satan is bound now? We can do this if we do not jump to unwarranted conclusions about the results of Satan's binding. Does the Bible actually say that this binding will result in a paradise-like world? No. In fact, Rev 20:3 states very specifically that the single purpose of Satan's binding is "so that he would not deceive the nations any longer."
The question is whether this was actually a result of Christ's first coming, and the answer is yes. Satan's main activity is deception. John 8:44 says, 'he is a liar and the father of lies." Revelation 12:9 describes him, prior to his defeat at Christ's first coming, as the one "who deceives the whole world," He is the source of lies, false teachings, false religions, and all idolatry. With the exception of Israel, prior to Christ's first coming the entire world – all nations
as nations – was totally engulfed in Satan's lies, languishing in darkness (see Rom 1:18-32). But what happened when Christ came? He accomplished the works of redemption, thus defeating the devil and his hosts. The gospel -- the good news about the saving power of Christ -- is the
gospel truth that dispels Satan's lies and brings light and life to all the world (2 Tim 1:10),
This is exactly how the risen Jesus described Paul's mission to the Gentiles, i.e., to the nations: "to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me" (Acts 26:18). this tells us that prior to the preaching of the gospel, the nations were in darkness; they were the domain of Satan. But as the gospel has been preached "to all the nations" in obedience to the Great Commission (Luke 24:47; see Matt 28:18-20, Mark 16:15), multitudes "from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues" (rev 7:9) have been delivered from captivity to the devil. In terms of Rev 20:1-3,
the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the chain that binds Satan, so that is not able to deceive the nations any longer.
This does not mean that Satan is doing nothing today. He still roams about, like a roaring lion, seeking to devour us (1 Pet 5:8). But Christ has established a safety zone, as it were, a place where Satan has no power. It is the church, which is the realm over which Christ reigns in his millennial kingship, a haven from the forces of death (Matt 16:18), and "the pillar and support of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15). Anyone who accepts the truth of the gospel and surrenders to the Lordship of Christ is rescued from captivity to Satan and set free to live beyond the reach of his lying mouth and slashing claws.
The results of Christ's initial binding of Satan are bestowed on individuals. When one makes his choice to follow Christ instead of Satan, the almighty power of Jesus Christ binds the devil in reference to that person's life. Jesus has already bound the strong man as such; when we preach the gospel and convert individuals, we are in effect plundering the strong man's house and carrying off his property (Matt 12:29). Because this has already been done on a worldwide basis, with practically every nation being exposed to Christ's liberating power to some degree, it can no longer be said that Satan is deceiving the Nations. Therefore, in terms of Rev 20:1-3,
4WD,
I did just now read the info you just posted above. That used to be the view I held. It's good stuff.
However, I am sure we can understand that similarity of terminology across different books of the Bible does not necessarily refer to exactly the same thing or event. Some try and make the Day of the Lord and Lord's Day refer to the one and same day across the Bible, when in actuality the term should be understood in each context to see what is being described. The same thing with "coming of the Lord" and similar phraseology. Some try to make the phrase refer to one and the same day (usually the Second Coming) when that doesn't work in all of the various contexts.
I believe the same is true for the binding of Satan in Rev 20. Preceding this binding, in chapter 19, Jesus comes riding a white horse and He stops the beast and the false prophet. This "coming" is not the first advent or the Second Coming, but rather Jesus bringing to an end he who is harming His people. The beast is who had been persecuting the church in the earlier chapters of the book. This is all post resurrection and ascension of Jesus (and post AD 70, 3 Rs). Coinciding with the end of the persecution of the beast is the binding of Satan. Satan is not going to be allowed to raise up another persecutor, for some time.
I don't have a Sword in front of me right now, but I would think that the deception of the peoples against the church had to occur prior to and during the persecutions. By ending the beast and false prophet, and binding Satan from further deceptions, the persecutions will not restart under another "beast."
3 Resurrections---
I read your post below in amazement. You truly believe that Satan has been destroyed. And yet you ignore history and the Spiritual Warfare that is definitely
taking place. You have to look closely at the attempted annihilation of the Jews. This wasn't just some evil plan man came up with----no this was a definite
satanic attack. Satan KNEW that a momentous event was about to take place----and he was attempting to stop it. If there are no Jews, there can be no Jewish
nation. World War 2 ended in 1945 and 6 million Jews were destroyed in the process. Yet, in 1948 the Jews returned to their homeland.
This was a Spiritual battle that was waged. And Satan did his utmost to destroy the Jews. But God's will MUST be done----and Israel formed despite Satan's
attempts to thwart it. Satan is fully aware that the re-formation of Israel is a direct signal that His end is VERY NEAR. He therefore (in his insanity) attempted
to stop it.
You are blinded 3 Resurrections. You are willingly and willfully accepting a theology that is blatantly false. Satan is very much alive and active in the world right how---
and Jesus Christ is very close to returning to this planet as He promised. Satan has YET to be bound for 1000 years. And once He is finally released, shortly there-
after He will be thrown into the Lake of Fire forever. THIS IS YET FUTURE.
: fish153 Tue Apr 17, 2018 - 10:26:54
3 Resurrections---
I read your post below in amazement. You truly believe that Satan has been destroyed. And yet you ignore history and the Spiritual Warfare that is definitely
taking place. You have to look closely at the attempted annihilation of the Jews. This wasn't just some evil plan man came up with----no this was a definite
satanic attack. Satan KNEW that a momentous event was about to take place----and he was attempting to stop it. If there are no Jews, there can be no Jewish
nation. World War 2 ended in 1945 and 6 million Jews were destroyed in the process. Yet, in 1948 the Jews returned to their homeland.
This was a Spiritual battle that was waged. And Satan did his utmost to destroy the Jews. But God's will MUST be done----and Israel formed despite Satan's
attempts to thwart it. Satan is fully aware that the re-formation of Israel is a direct signal that His end is VERY NEAR. He therefore (in his insanity) attempted
to stop it.
You are blinded 3 Resurrections. You are willingly and willfully accepting a theology that is blatantly false. Satan is very much alive and active in the world right how---
and Jesus Christ is very close to returning to this planet as He promised. Satan has YET to be bound for 1000 years. And once He is finally released, shortly there-
after He will be thrown into the Lake of Fire forever. THIS IS YET FUTURE.
In the Bible, Satan succeeded, or rather I say God allowed the Jews to be killed by the Romans because she had become the unfaithful wife- the harlot of Babylon. They apostasized and worshiped Roman gods. They rejected and killed their own Messiah.
Scripture tells us several times that Satan's time was "short" and he would be crushed under our feet "shortly."
Evil is still around. Even outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.
It shows that although Satan was thrown in the LOF, his influence can continue.
Modern Israel has nothing to do with any Biblical "holy people!"
God left the building (temple built with hands) almost 2 thousand years ago.
There is only good and evil. And if you can defeat evil, you know that God is on one's side!
1 Pt 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Doesn't sound like someone bound in chains to me.
Mt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Jesus said the devil would be sowing tares until the end of the world, doesn't sound like someone bound by chains to me.
Amo said:
1 Pt 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Your kidding, right? When did Peter write that statement? Hmm.
Jesus said the devil would be sowing tares until the end of the world, doesn't sound like someone bound by chains to me.
Well, it's the end of the "age" not the "world." Some versions make the mistake of using "end of the world!"
Amo - I would second lea's comment that this I Peter 5:8 verse was written by Peter at a time when the devil had been loosed on earth, "seeking whom he may devour". It was during that "little season" he had been given between Christ's ascension in AD 33 and AD 66 when "every unclean spirit" was imprisoned in Jerusalem, as Rev. 18:2 foretold. This "little season" was just before the "completion of the AGE", which, as lea has noted, is NOT the end of the WORLD. Remember, Peter also told his first-century readers just prior to this verse that "the END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND" in I Peter 4:7. What he meant was that the "completion of the AGE" was "at hand" (meaning present) for that generation.
As for the tares parable, it too was fulfilled in that first-century generation. We have proof of this by looking at the parallel passage to your Matthew 13:36-43 text. It is found in Luke 13:24-30 where it talks about the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" taking place for those who would tell the returning Christ that "we have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets." There is ONLY ONE GENERATION and one nation that has had Jesus personally teach in its streets, and has eaten and drunk at the same table in Jesus' physical presence, and that is the generation of Jews that were contemporary with Jesus' 3 1/2-year ministry. THIS GENERATION that rejected their prophesied Messiah would be the ones that experienced weeping and gnashing of teeth when they witnessed the resurrection of all the saints and prophets, with themselves thrust out of the kingdom of God. These "tares" were gathered and burned in the "furnace of fire" in Jerusalem long ago at the completion of that Old Covenant Age.
I would differ with most on this board by saying that the binding of Satan was begun long ago at the time when Solomon's temple foundation was laid. We have proof of this by checking out Psalm 72 in the LXX. David prophesied that Solomon "the king's son" would "bring low the false accuser" in Ps. 72:4. This "false accuser" is Satan, the same "accuser of the brethren" from Revelation 12:10. God used Solomon to "bring low the false accuser" by launching the golden age of peace for Jerusalem under his reign - the beginning of the millennium of physical temple worship - EXACTLY 1,000 years before Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension in AD 33. It was BOTH a literal AND a symbolic number of years, and provided the type for the later spiritual anti-type temple made of living stones, with Christ laid down as its foundation stone.
You guys are in lala land. Stop making the scriptures say what you want to believe, and accept what they plainly state.
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
No indication above that this war would end thousands of years before Christ returns again, which event has not transpired as Preterists and their minions falsely claim.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
The dragon, who is identified as the devil in Rev 12, gives these beasts their power. Tell us when these things have already happened over all the world and then Satan was bound. We must have missed that in history class. No doubt you will claim all the world doesn't mean all the world. Your will change scripture to fit your chosen belief, rather than change your chosen belief to fit with scripture.
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Do we not see all such today? Are we not in much later times than the days of the Apostles? What latter times do yo suggest are being referred to above? Are your teachings not a fulfillment of the above prophecy? Yes they are.
2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
So according to you all of the above has already happened. Please do explain how and when. There is no more deception and delusion in the world? All are now saved? Satan is not involved in all the deception and delusion present today? BALONY!
If Satan was already bound long ago, shortly after the days of the apostles, then why didn't the apostles tell us about this wonderful time to get out the gospel unhindered by the enemy? Why did they leave us with so many warnings and experiences of battle with him, without informing us of the glorious times just about to come upon us when he would be bound and no longer able to deceive us or anyone else? They did not, because such is not true. To the contrary, such teaching is one of the deceptions they warned of.
Amo,
You know that if you ask 100 people to give an interpretation of Revelation, you will get 100 different answers, and each one will be dogmatic about how right he or she is. Each one can be just as wrong as the other, but each will be adamant just the same.
You are just one of those 100, and so is 3 Resurrections, and so am I. I don't agree with either one of you. ::cool::
Amo says:
The dragon, who is identified as the devil in Rev 12, gives these beasts their power. Tell us when these things have already happened over all the world and then Satan was bound. We must have missed that in history class. No doubt you will claim all the world doesn't mean all the world. Your will change scripture to fit your chosen belief, rather than change your chosen belief to fit with scripture
.
History class? The history is that Christ returned over the skies of Jerusalem. Your story is always the same.
You're wasting time posting long segments of scripture.
Who said Satan was bound in Rev.12? The "then known world"- so yes, you just learned something.
I'm blessed. I live each day for God's grace.
At least we can agree that "we" don't have to fear the second death! Praise God!
: Amo Sun Apr 22, 2018 - 09:46:28If Satan was already bound long ago, shortly after the days of the apostles, then why didn't the apostles tell us about this wonderful time to get out the gospel unhindered by the enemy? Why did they leave us with so many warnings and experiences of battle with him, without informing us of the glorious times just about to come upon us when he would be bound and no longer able to deceive us or anyone else? They did not, because such is not true. To the contrary, such teaching is one of the deceptions they warned of.
It would help if you bothered to see what the Bible says about the binding of Satan instead of insinuating your own view of it.
Amo - You might happen to be one of those who do not acknowledge scripture's description of the tendency to deception lurking the human heart since birth, (Ps. 58:3 - "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."). If you are one of those that reject this concept, it is probably impossible to admit that any current manifestations of wickedness and deceit committed in this New Covenant Age are credited to MAN ALONE - NOT due to any supposed Satanic or demonic operation in the world.
I believe the following is the main reason God eradicated the presence of the evil spirit realm from this planet since the close of AD 70: to show mankind just what level of wickedness his own spirit is capable of, even WITHOUT the devil or demons around to "beguile" him. It's a humiliating truth: our predisposition to commit evil is every bit as bad or EVEN WORSE than Satan's ever was, because our sins are committed against God's mercy bestowed on us. Satan and the demonic world were not given the blessings of God's intervening grace, as humans were, so our offenses against God are even more egregious than his.
In your comment #90 above, Amo, the entire text of Revelation 12 that you presented is a repetition of first-century history, encompassing Christ's birth, resurrection, and the loosing of Satan the Dragon after Christ's ascension by his being cast out of heaven into the earth (John 12:31 and 14:30). It was then that his "short time" of persecuting the church in great wrath after Pentecost began. This was the time he made war on the resurrected First-fruits remnant of the woman's seed that were raised along with Christ - the 144,000 "remnant" of Matthew 27:52-53 saints. The history of this persecution period starting in full fury the very day Stephen was martyred is recorded for us in the book of Acts. Revelation 12 is a synopsis of Acts' history of the flood of early church persecution, including Saul's / Paul's part in it.
In your comment #91, Amo, there is NO WAY this beast empowered by Satan is a future one to us, because of the "seat" or "throne" (thronon) of Satan's which was given to that first beast from the sea. Revelation tells us that Satan's "seat" was at PERGAMOS (Rev. 2:13). This idolatrous city was the center of the Pergamum kingdom on the Asian continent, which was GIVEN entirely to the ROMAN REPUBLIC in 133 BC by a dying King Attalus III. He had no heir to pass his Pergamum kingdom to, and he knew the Roman republic was powerful enough to protect the Pergamum kingdom from descending into civil strife, or from being invaded by enemies.
Therefore, since the Roman empire exists no more today, which once had this "seat" or "throne" of Satan in Pergamos given to it, this prophecy is on the list of fulfilled ones. It also means that it was the Roman empire which was represented by the Sea Beast of Rev. 13:1-2. Under Nero's reign, there were exactly 42 months of heavy persecution (Rev. 13:5-7) launched by the Sea Beast against the Christians. This "fiery trial" of Christian sufferings that Peter said was then happening to his readers (I Peter 4:12 - written in AD 65) was first launched in late AD 64 after the fire of Rome was blamed on the Christians.
You state that Preterist's claim that "all the world" doesn't mean "all the world". Well, when one looks at the Greek, there IS a difference between "All the WORLD" (kosmos or oikoumene - which can be either the globe or the known habitable world), and "all that dwell upon the EARTH" (tes ges - which is the "land" of Israel usually). Revelation 12:12 also makes a distinction when it comes to "the inhabitants of the EARTH" (land of Israel) compared to "the inhabitants...of the SEA" (which usually refers to Gentile countries). Satan was busy deceiving ALL these inhabitants of the earth AND of the sea in that "short time" of his, from AD 33-66. I try to follow the Greek whenever the context makes a difference between each of these terms, not just read into it what I want it to say. In this case, the English is rather generic, compared to the more precise Greek terms.
And your comment #92 about the timing of " the latter times"... the same "last days" that Peter identified as their own contemporary times when the Spirit was poured out in fulfillment of the Joel prophecy - these "last days" were the same as "these last days" that were then present in Hebrews 1:1-2. Jude 18 also agrees that the "mockers" predicted by the apostles to come in "the last time" were at that moment already operating among the church in his day.
The time clock for the "last DAYS" had progressed to "the LAST *HOUR*" by the time I John 2:17-18 was written. If the countdown had progressed from the "last days" to "the last HOUR" from AD 33 up until John's writing, it stretches all bounds of reason to say that "the last HOUR" should still be pending for almost 2,000 years now - especially when John's revelation said that "the time is AT HAND" (or present) to those he was addressing, for all his written prophecies to be fulfilled.
And your comment #93: I have covered the historic record of fulfillment for this II Thessalonians 2 prediction in a couple posts elsewhere. One from May 2017 was called "The 'Man of Lawlessness' was a first - century Zealot". Another was my comment #28 in the post called "Why a new temple is not needed in physical Israel" back in Nov. 2016. Not sure how you presume we have said that there is "no more deception and delusion in the world", and that "all are now saved". ??? Never stated either of those things. As I've said above, Satan's presence is not a prerequisite for deception or sin to occur in the world. We are equipped to do this ourselves from birth.
And your comment #94: the apostles gave THAT GENERATION warnings and descriptions of battles with the Satanic realm because those epistles were written when it was still Satan's "short time" and "little season" of being loosed in those days from AD 33-AD 66. The "armor of God" found in Ephesians 6 (written around AD 62-64) was still needed for Christians to combat "the wiles of the devil" up until he was imprisoned in Jerusalem in Revelation 18:2 and was cast into Jerusalem's Lake of Fire in Revelation 20:10.
The believers in those days were alerted about their soon-coming release from Satan's oppression. Romans 16:20 (written around AD 60) says that the God of peace would "bruise" or "crush" (suntribo) Satan himself under THEIR feet "SHORTLY". A time span from AD 60 until Satan's and the devils' imprisonment in Jerusalem in AD 66 qualifies as "shortly". On the contrary, if Romans 16:20 was referring to a time span of 2,0000-plus years and still counting, that is NOT crushing Satan "SHORTLY", by any stretch of the imagination. And Paul knew very well what the relative sense of the word "shortly" meant, since he used it in I Timothy 3:14 to say that he wanted to come unto Timothy "shortly" at that time.
Amo---
Thank you for your posts, and your desire to speak the truth. You are absolutely correct----Preterism is a great error. It is very obvious that Satan is not
bound or destroyed at this time on earth. That is a yet future event as you have so strongly pointed out. Scripture is very clear about this. Thanks again and
God bless you.
: fish153 Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 11:58:31It is very obvious that Satan is not bound or destroyed at this time on earth. That is a yet future event as you have so strongly pointed out. Scripture is very clear about this.
The Binding of Satan at Jesus first coming is a basic amillennial position. Satan is not destroyed at this time, but he is bound. See my reply #83. I would direct your attention specifically to the last paragraph.
: fish153 Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 11:58:31
Amo---
Thank you for your posts, and your desire to speak the truth. You are absolutely correct----Preterism is a great error. It is very obvious that Satan is not
bound or destroyed at this time on earth. That is a yet future event as you have so strongly pointed out. Scripture is very clear about this. Thanks again and
God bless you.
If scripture was "very clear" about all of this, there would not be differing understandings of it.
I disagree with the basic Preterism AD 70 stuff, and I disagree with the basic amillennial position and the basic premillennial position. And, I think the veracity of my position is "very clear."
soterion---
I think the Scripture is very clear about this---and Amo was attempting to share that. The problem is that preterists have their own definitions of words
like "soon" etc, believing "soon" could not possibly mean 2000 years. I believe the bible is very clear that Satan is at work during this present
age, and has not been bound or destroyed. And I think that 95% of Christendom would agree with that. Sorry, but have to disagree with you there.
: 4WD Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 12:13:26
The Binding of Satan at Jesus first coming is a basic amillennial position. Satan is not destroyed at this time, but he is bound. See my reply #83. I would direct your attention specifically to the last paragraph.
: 4WD Tue Apr 17, 2018 - 09:07:11
The results of Christ's initial binding of Satan are bestowed on individuals. When one makes his choice to follow Christ instead of Satan, the almighty power of Jesus Christ binds the devil in reference to that person's life. Jesus has already bound the strong man as such; when we preach the gospel and convert individuals, we are in effect plundering the strong man's house and carrying off his property (Matt 12:29). Because this has already been done on a worldwide basis, with practically every nation being exposed to Christ's liberating power to some degree, it can no longer be said that Satan is deceiving the Nations. Therefore, in terms of Rev 20:1-3,
4WD, I think you are pretty close & over all I thought that was a pretty good post. But on this last paragraph, I think in John 12 & Revelation 12 we find some verses that should agree with what you are saying. Which takes us to the Cross.
John 12
27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying,
I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Revelation 12
9 And
the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And
they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death
The Cross is the central & most important event in all history. It is the focal point demonstrating God's ulitmate love for his children. Up until the Cross all nations were deceived. So deceived that nations 'cept a remnant of Israel worshiped everything but God. Even that remnant suffered from deception evidenced because the leadership, the priests, the scribes, Sadducees, the Zealots, the Pharisees all had it wrong.
Prior to the Cross, Satan was truly what Jesus called him, the Prince of this World.
At the ascension of Christ, beginning the twelve, we witness the Gospel making it way around the world freeing the captives & robbing the house of the world Prince. Jesus told us the only way that is possible is that he, the strongman, Satan, first must be bound.
Even in Revelation 20, with its marvelous signified imagery, does not say Satan is bound in all things. It says; he can no longer deceive the nations. Well, till the little season.
Judgment Begins With The House of God
1、Christ Does the Work of Judgment With the Truth
2、Why Does God Carry Out a Stage of the Work of Judgment and Purification in the Last Days?
3、How does God's work of judgment during the last days purify and save mankind?
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5、What is the consequence and the outcome of the religious world rejecting God's work of judgment in the last days?
If you want to know these. please click here.
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: fish153 Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 14:08:43
The problem is that preterists have their own definitions of words like "soon" etc, believing "soon" could not possibly mean 2000 years.
Okay, but exactly the same thing can be said right back to you regarding your own definition of words, this time that "soon" has to mean "2,000+ years later."
You see, if it can mean that, then it means nothing. ::pondering::
soterion---
I understand where you are coming from----but think for a moment about preterism. In 70 AD Jesus returned and Satan was bound or destroyed according to them, correct?
Yet, 95% of Christians believe that Jesus' 2nd coming is yet future. Hundreds of verses in the Bible have to do with "watching" for the return of Jesus Christ. When Jeus
says "I am coming soon" do you believe he meant soon as in just a few years (70 AD) or "soon" as God sees the word? "A thousand years are like a day to the Lord"?
Why would God allow most of the New Testament to talk about a return that is going to take place in just a few years? (70 AD) Why are all these references in
our Bibles NOW? You know, there were a type of people like the preterists back in Paul's day:
"Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some". (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
It is important to see this. The Holy Spirit is telling us that there were people THEN, and there will be people NOW (see 2nd Peter) who will shake the faith of some by
stating Jesus has ALREADY COME, etc. It is a warning to us that we would do good to heed.
Good point fish153.
Regarding "soon", this is a another case where I believe the KJV translators got it correct. They used the word "quickly". Which denotes suddeness & is a synonym to the use of the word quickly at that time because its definition at the time would be rapidly.
Also the understanding Christ's Second Advent is sudden, (quick, quickly), is inline with other texts, such as "a thief in the night". Which in context does not mean a sneak thief but moreso a marauder. People did not fear a petty sneak thief. They feared a marauder, the very reason cities, villages, & compounds had walls. A maruader would attack at night when folks were vulnerable & unaware,(sudden) then pillage all that was valuable, then burn the rest. Which is very similar to what Peter describes in 2 Peter 3.
: fish153 Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 18:20:38
soterion---
I understand where you are coming from----but think for a moment about preterism. In 70 AD Jesus returned and Satan was bound or destroyed according to them, correct?
Like I already said, I don't agree with that view.
Yet, 95% of Christians believe that Jesus' 2nd coming is yet future. Hundreds of verses in the Bible have to do with "watching" for the return of Jesus Christ. When Jeus
says "I am coming soon" do you believe he meant soon as in just a few years (70 AD) or "soon" as God sees the word? "A thousand years are like a day to the Lord"?
Why would God allow most of the New Testament to talk about a return that is going to take place in just a few years? (70 AD) Why are all these references in
our Bibles NOW? You know, there were a type of people like the preterists back in Paul's day:
"Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some". (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
There is such a disparity between what you and I believe here, and it is not where you think the disagreements are.
I believe in the Second Coming of Christ in the future. I am among those 95%. However, the term "coming" as referred to God/Jesus does not always mean "Second Coming." Also, I do not believe Revelation is about His Second Coming at all.
It is important to see this. The Holy Spirit is telling us that there were people THEN, and there will be people NOW (see 2nd Peter) who will shake the faith of some by
stating Jesus has ALREADY COME, etc. It is a warning to us that we would do good to heed.
Of course, nobody should teach the fallacy that the Second Coming has occurred.
Regarding Revelation 1:1-3 and 22:6 & 10, the words "shortly take place" and "at hand" are used, I believe, to mean just what the words mean to us today and to what they would have meant to the people of the seven churches. They would not be given warnings about things that will take place thousands of years from their time and be told to heed the things written therein, when those things have nothing to do with them. We have to understand the book from their point of view, since it was written specifically to them regarding their near future.
Again, if "shortly come to pass" and "at hand" can mean "thousands of years from now," then those phrases mean nothing to those churches. We read the highly figurative language of the book, then we say that any literal interpretation has not yet occurred, so therefore the events described have not yet happened. I believe that is a very bogus hermeneutic.
Revelation is written with very figurative/symbolic language, and what the figures/symbols mean have to be applied to the seven churches in their time of receiving the book, or the whole stated occasion of the book is being ignored.
If you want to know more specifically what I think about it, then read the following:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-judgment-seat-of-christ-99153/msg1055100153/#msg1055100153 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-judgment-seat-of-christ-99153/msg1055100153/#msg1055100153)
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/rapture-tribulation-debate/msg1055099098/#msg1055099098 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/rapture-tribulation-debate/msg1055099098/#msg1055099098)
: TonkaTim Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 19:00:32
Good point fish153.
Regarding "soon", this is a another case where I believe the KJV translators got it correct. They used the word "quickly". Which denotes suddeness & is a synonym to the use of the word quickly at that time because its definition at the time would be rapidly.
Also the understanding Christ's Second Advent is sudden, (quick, quickly), is inline with other texts, such as "a thief in the night". Which in context does not mean a sneak thief but moreso a marauder. People did not fear a petty sneak thief. They feared a marauder, the very reason cities, villages, & compounds had walls. A maruader would attack at night when folks were vulnerable & unaware,(sudden) then pillage all that was valuable, then burn the rest. Which is very similar to what Peter describes in 2 Peter 3.
I think most translations use "quickly" in Revelation 22:10; at least the ones I am looking at. I believe whatever is meant by "quickly" in 22:20 should be understood in line with the following verses.
In the 1611 Edition, as well as the 1796 Edition, I read in Revelation 1:1 & 3, "...things which must shortly come to pass...for the time is at hand." In Revelation 22:6 & 10, I read, "...the things which shortly must be done...the time is at hand."
Jesus is being asked to come quickly and bring about the fulfillment of what is written to those churches, those things which must soon take place because the time is at hand for them.
: soterion Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 20:07:54
I think most translations use "quickly" in Revelation 22:10; at least the ones I am looking at. I believe whatever is meant by "quickly" in 22:20 should be understood in line with the following verses.
In the 1611 Edition, as well as the 1796 Edition, I read in Revelation 1:1 & 3, "...things which must shortly come to pass...for the time is at hand." In Revelation 22:6 & 10, I read, "...the things which shortly must be done...the time is at hand."
Jesus is being asked to come quickly and bring about the fulfillment of what is written to those churches, those things which must soon take place because the time is at hand for them.
(I was discussing 22:12 above)
Regarding your assumption, take a look at the Greek in verses 1:3 & 22:10
Verse 3 would be the verse that would be strongest for you case because it denotes nearness in time ; καιρὸς(time) ἐγγύς(near) which is very similar to 22:10 καιρὸς(time) γὰρ(for, actually) ἐγγύς(near)
But in reality it doesn't when you imply it
only applies to "to the people of the seven churches" & "not be given warnings about things that will take place thousands of years from their time"
Why do I say this?
Well, because in 1:19 Christ informs John:
"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter"
In the Revelation of Jesus Christ we are dealing with three time periods in context to John's present; 'hast seen"- past, "things which are" - present, "shall be hereafter" γενέσθαι (occur/take place) μετὰ(after) ταῦτα(these) future. Only some of it applies to the Seven Churches era because some of it is past, while other parts is future. Which is the same reason those who apply to solely to the future err as well as those who apply it solely to the past.
That same past, present, future is also evident in say 17:8:
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition"
was - past, is - present, shall - future. (relative to John's present).
So yes some of these things in the book are very relative to the era(present) of John & the seven churches, but not exclusive to that era. Thus the time & events of that era is near or at hand is correct, but again, not solely exclusive to that era & does not exclude future or negates the suddenness of 22:12.
: TonkaTim Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 20:59:27
Well, because in 1:19 Christ informs John:
"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter"
In the Revelation of Jesus Christ we are dealing with three time periods in context to John's present; 'hast seen"- past, "things which are" - present, "shall be hereafter" γενέσθαι (occur/take place) μετὰ(after) ταῦτα(these) future. Only some of it applies to the Seven Churches era because some of it is past, while other parts is future. Which is the same reason those who apply to solely to the future err as well as those who apply it solely to the past.
Just because some of it is future does not have to mean our future, just future to those people in their time. Any futurists view can pick and choose what they want to apply to our future, when the book gives zero permission to do so. And, such a futurist view is dependent, as far as I have seen, on some literal fulfillment of the very figurative language. The figures and symbols are not mean to be understood literally. Any and everything that is referred to as "hereafter" again has to understood as the future of those people in their context according to the stated occasion of the book.
That same past, present, future is also evident in say 17:8:
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition"
was - past, is - present, shall - future. (relative to John's present).
So yes some of these things in the book are very relative to the era(present) of John & the seven churches, but not exclusive to that era. Thus the time & events of that era is near or at hand is correct, but again, not solely exclusive to that era & does not exclude future or negates the suddenness of 22:12.
Again, I believe the beast is a Roman emperor future to the time of Revelation having been written, but in our past. In Revelation 22:10-12, Jesus is again being asked to come and quickly fulfill what is written concerning Roman persecution and the deliverance of the seven churches.
: soterion Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 21:24:15
Just because some of it is future does not have to mean our future, just future to those people in their time. Any futurists view can pick and choose what they want to apply to our future, when the book gives zero permission to do so. And, such a futurist view is dependent, as far as I have seen, on some literal fulfillment of the very figurative language. The figures and symbols are not mean to be understood literally. Any and everything that is referred to as "hereafter" again has to understood as the future of those people in their context according to the stated occasion of the book.
I agree with most of this & why noted "three time periods in context to John's present" & "(relative to John's present)"
: soterion Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 21:24:15
Again, I believe the beast is a Roman emperor future to the time of Revelation having been written, but in our past. In Revelation 22:10-12, Jesus is again being asked to come and quickly fulfill what is written concerning Roman persecution and the deliverance of the seven churches.
By beast I assume you mean this beast:
Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Which is associated with the Dragon:
Revelation 12
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Which is why I referenced it in the above post citing chapter 17 verse 8:
"The beast that thou sawest was, and
is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition"
Based on the three time eras requirements in the Book, it could not be a kingdom of John's present "
is not", thus it
is not Imperial Rome.
: TonkaTim Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 21:41:51
Which is why I referenced it in the above post citing chapter 17 verse 8:
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition"
Based on the three time eras requirements in the Book, it could not be a kingdom of John's present "is not", thus it is not Imperial Rome.
I am looking at the beast as one of the eight kings mentioned in Rev 17:8-11. John writes that five have fallen, one is (#6, I believe this is Vaspasian, Revelation having been written during his reign), the next is coming but will last a little while (#7), and then #8, which was and is not (meaning not yet). I see this as Domitian. He is like Nero, one of the first five, who persecuted the churches.
I am sure we will continue to not see eye to eye, and that's okay. If my salvation depends on a perfect view of Revelation, I know I'm a goner. ::noworries::
: soterion Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 22:04:33
I am looking at the beast as one of the eight kings mentioned in Rev 17:8-11. John writes that five have fallen, one is (#6, I believe this is Vaspasian, Revelation having been written during his reign), the next is coming but will last a little while (#7), and then #8, which was and is not (meaning not yet). I see this as Domitian. He is like Nero, one of the first five, who persecuted the churches.
I am sure we will continue to not see eye to eye, and that's okay. If my salvation depends on a perfect view of Revelation, I know I'm a goner. ::noworries::
I too agree it was written during Vespasian"s reign.
Consider this text when identifying the Kings;
Revelation 17
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and
one isWe have a kingdom (beast) that "is not", but yet have the king, that "one is".
Which means that kingdom's fall is recent to John's present because the king, that "one is"
Interesting, huh? What Kingdom (beast) of significance fell during that era?
I totally disagree with the take you both have on Revelation 17. I believe strongly that the 7 "kings" are empires. When John wrote (5) had fallen,
one was (Roman Empire) and one was yet to come.
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition". (Revelation 17)
Please note that the eigth King is "of the seven". He is a world conqueror which shall come back from the abyss to reign again. Perhaps Alexander
the Great? The eighth king is not a separate kingdom---he is "of the seven" that have existed. According to John after Rome one more empire will
rise. After that one of the kings from the past will return (He is presently in the abyss--he "was, is not, yet is")
I don't believe the 7 kings is talking about Roman Emperors at all.
Apparently the following church "Fathers" did not believe Satan was bound. All emphasis in the following quotes is mine.
THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE EPHESIANS CHAPTER 13
EXHORTATION TO MEET TOGETHER FREQUENTLY FOR THE WORSHIP OF GOD
[LONGER]
Take heed, then, often to come together to give thanks to God, and show forth His praise. For when ye come frequently together in the same place, the powers of Satan are destroyed, and his "fiery darts" urging to sin fall back ineffectual. For your concord and harmonious faith prove his destruction, and the torment of his assistants. Nothing is better than that peace which is according to Christ, by which all war, both of aerial and terrestrial spirits, is brought to an end. "For we wrestle not against blood and flesh, but against principalities and powers, and against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places."
THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE TARSIANS
CHAPTER 2
CAUTIONS AGAINST FALSE DOCTRINE
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance; others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. Others, again, hold that He is a mere man, and others that this flesh is not to rise again, so that our proper course is to live and partake of a life of pleasure, for that this is the chief good to beings who are in a little while to perish. A swarm of such evils has burst in upon us. But ye have not "given place by subjection to them, no, not for one hour." For ye are the fellow-citizens as well as the disciples of Paul, who "fully preached the Gospel from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum," and bare about "the marks of Christ" in his flesh.
THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE PHILIPPIANS
CHAPTER 4
THE MALIGNITY AND FOLLY OF SATAN
And indeed, before the cross was erected, he (Satan) was eager that it should be so; and he "wrought" [for this end] "in the children of disobedience." He wrought in Judas, in the Pharisees, in the Sadducees, in the old, in the young, and in the priests. But when it was just about to be erected, he was troubled, and infused repentance into the traitor, and pointed him to a rope to hang himself with, and taught him [to die by] strangulation. He terrified also the silly woman, disturbing her by dreams; and he, who had tried every means to have the cross prepared, now endeavored to put a stop to its erection; not that he was influenced by repentance on account of the greatness of his crime (for in that case he would not be utterly depraved), but because he perceived his own destruction [to be at hand]. For the cross of Christ was the beginning of his condemnation, the beginning of his death, the beginning of his destruction. Wherefore, also, he works in some that they should deny the cross, be ashamed of the passion, call the death an appearance, mutilate and explain away the birth of the Virgin, and calumniate the [human] nature itself as being abominable. He fights along with the Jews to a denial of the cross, and with the Gentiles to the calumniating of Mary, who are heretical in holding that Christ possessed a mere phantasmal body. For the leader of all wickedness assumes manifold forms, beguiler of men as he is, inconsistent, and even contradicting himself, projecting one course and then following another. For he is wise to do evil, but as to what good may be he is totally ignorant. And indeed he is full of ignorance, on account of his voluntary want of reason: for how can he be deemed anything else who does not perceive reason when it lies at his very feet?
THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS
CHAPTER 2
THE JEWISH SACRIFICES ARE NOW ABOLISHED
Since, therefore, the days are evil, and Satan possesses the power of this world, we ought to give heed to ourselves, and diligently inquire into the ordinances of the Lord. Fear and patience, then, are helpers of our faith; and long-suffering and continence are things which fight on our side. While these remain pure in what respects the Lord, Wisdom, Understanding, Science, and Knowledge rejoice along with them. For He hath revealed to us by all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices, nor burnt-offerings, nor oblations, saying thus, "What is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me, saith the Lord?
CHAPTER 18
SECOND PART OF THE EPISTLE THE TWO WAYS
But let us now pass to another sort of knowledge and doctrine. There are two ways of doctrine and authority, the one of light, and the other of darkness. But there is a great difference between these two ways. For over one are stationed the light-bringing angels of God, but over the other the angels of Satan. And He indeed (i.e., God) is Lord for ever and ever, but he (i.e., Satan) is prince of the time of iniquity.
IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES
BOOK 3
12. For all those who are of a perverse mind, having been set against the Mosaic legislation, judging it to be dissimilar and contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel, have not applied themselves to investigate the causes of the difference of each covenant. Since, therefore, they have been deserted by the paternal love, and puffed up by Satan, being brought over to the doctrine of Simon Magus, they have apostatized in their opinions from Him who is God, and imagined that they have themselves discovered more than the apostles, by finding out another God; and [maintained] that the apostles preached the Gospel still somewhat under the influence of Jewish opinions, but that they themselves are purer [in doctrine], and more intelligent, than the apostles.
CHAPTER 16
PROOFS FROM THE APOSTOLIC WRITINGS, THAT JESUS CHRIST WAS ONE AND THE SAME, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, PERFECT GOD AND PERFECT MAN
1. .........................................................
I judge it necessary therefore to take into account the entire mind of the apostles regarding our
Lord Jesus Christ, and to show that not only did they never hold any such opinions regarding Him; but, still further, that they announced through the Holy Spirit, that those who should teach such doctrines were agents of Satan, sent forth for the purpose of overturning the faith of some, and drawing them away from life.
BOOK 5
CHAPTER 26
2. ...........................................................
Let those persons, therefore, who blaspheme the Creator, either by openly expressed words, such as the disciples of Marcion, or by a perversion of the sense [of Scripture], as those of Valentinus and all the Gnostics falsely so called, be recognized as agents of Satan by all those who worship God; through whose agency Satan now, and not before, has been seen to speak against God, even Him who has prepared eternal fire for every kind of apostasy.
As is obvious, the above writers and many others which could be quoted throughout the history of "Christianity" never believed that satan had already been bound for a thousand years.
: Amo Sat Apr 28, 2018 - 17:09:07Apparently the following church "Fathers" did not believe Satan was bound. All emphasis in the following quotes is mine.
As is obvious, the above writers and many others which could be quoted throughout the history of "Christianity" never believed that satan had already been bound for a thousand years.
Nothing you quoted says that Satan was/is not bound. Read my reply #83 so that you will understand what God says about Satan being bound. You who always complain that others do not believe what God says now seem not to believe what God says.
: 4WD Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 06:16:20
Nothing you quoted says that Satan was/is not bound. Read my reply #83 so that you will understand what God says about Satan being bound. You who always complain that others do not believe what God says now seem not to believe what God says.
I read your post #83. While containing some truth, as in those in Christ are delivered from Satan's deceptions if they remain in Christ, the man point is incorrect. Satan is still actively deceiving the nations, and will continue to do so until Christ returns again. The only nation that is not presently being deceived by Satan, and will not ever be deceived, is the spiritual nation of Israel who are in Christ. Observe the following -
Rev 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
The book of Revelation was written after Christ conquered Satan on behalf of humanity, and is a revelation from Jesus Christ Himself regarding things which would shortly begin to pass. The book records the ongoing battle between Christ and His followers, and Satan and his followers till the end of this world when Christ returns. Satan is depicted as deceiving all the nations and world in this account. The dragon who is the devil gives almost all of he beasts of prophecy their power up to the last beast at the end. The book of Revelation depicts the war between Christ and Satan for hearts and minds of all humanity. All must choose whom they serve before Christ returns, and both are extremely active in winning over their followers. Christ through truth, and Satan through deception.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,
Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
: Amo Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 10:47:16I read your post #83. While containing some truth, as in those in Christ are delivered from Satan's deceptions if they remain in Christ, the man point is incorrect.
So then you believe that the author of Hebrews didn't know what he was talking about when he said,
Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
Heb 2:15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. 'Tis a pity.
: 4WD Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 12:48:30
So then you believe that the author of Hebrews didn't know what he was talking about when he said,
Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
Heb 2:15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
'Tis a pity.
I do believe that scripture, I just also know that the rest of scripture expounds more upon the subject of death and when it will be conquered in finality. It is conquered now by faith, faith in that which in the future will become reality according to the testimony of God's chosen prophets. Scripture does not and should not be used to negate scripture. It is important to take all scripture concerning any topic or subject into consideration before making doctrine out of the same. Let's add a little context to the scripture you quoted which reveals a different take than your are portraying.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.The promise of victory over death in Christ is sure, though scripture itself reveals the timing of its literal end for the saved at our Lord and Saviors return. The above verses though do not portray the picture you are attempting to paint with them. Christ became one of us in order to deliver us from death and temptation. Being tempted as we are, He is able to thoroughly relate to and help us in times of temptation. Yes, Christ's own in this world will continue to be tempted by the devil as Christ was as well, but now we have one of our own selves as our advocate and help in the hour of temptation. This is certainly not a picture or promise to us that Satan has already been bound and can no longer tempt us or the nations. To the contrary, it testifies to the exact opposite effect. We will still have to battle the temptations of the evil one as all before us have, and all after us will, short of Christ's second coming. At which time scripture conclusively testifies, "death will be swallowed up in victory."
1 For 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death..................................................
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
: Amo Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 15:18:58
Christ became one of us in order to deliver us from death and temptation. Being tempted as we are, He is able to thoroughly relate to and help us in times of temptation. Yes, Christ's own in this world will continue to be tempted by the devil as Christ was as well, but now we have one of our own selves as our advocate and help in the hour of temptation. This is certainly not a picture or promise to us that Satan has already been bound and can no longer tempt us or the nations. To the contrary, it testifies to the exact opposite effect. We will still have to battle the temptations of the evil one as all before us have
Amo, you're making it about temptation when the verse says deceive; deceive the nations.
You're making the binding of Satan all about temptation, not deception.
Even without Satan we as humans will suffer temptation due to our corrupt fallen bodies. The very reason Paul wrote:
Romans 7
"8 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
Now our corruption begins with Satan in the Garden when Eve chose to believe the lie of Satan over the truth of God. Deception.
That persisted till God destroyed the world with the Flood.
Persisted even after that at Babel.
Persisted in the world when God called Abraham.
Persisted when Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt
Kept persisting till Christ.
The whole world had been deceived & believed the father of all lies. Man worshiped creatures not the Creator. Man worshiped idols not God. They worshiped demons not Christ.
They did so because Satan was what Jesus called him, the prince of this world.
He is the strong man Jesus told us about. He had to be bound, chained, limited in his ability to deceive.
We know this happened with the work of Christ.
For Millenia, beginning with just the few, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has gone into the world conquering & plundering the prince's house, bringing the lost sheep into the fold of the Good Shepherd.
To me this is blatantly obvious. It is what has happened.
So much so it appears to me we may now be in the little season because we are seeing such apostasy. We have several folks on this little forum board vehemently arguing against the Deity of Christ & tolerated. What was once the strongholds of Christianity & formerly called Christendom, who sent missionaries all around the world, are now mostly secular nations promoting Secular Humanism. And, what is left, the remnant of Christianity, too much is filled with heresy. The Prosperity gospel has reduced God down to a magic genie there to fulfill all ones carnal desires. Grace is preached that it abounds so greatly that men can live lives of hedonistic carnal pleasure, open & unrepentant sinners, & still call themselves Christian. They even place folks who live openly in total rebellion & enmity to the morality of God in the pulpit. Tickling the ears of men. Returning back to the lies & wickedness of the past; deceived.
The time for the return of our Lord is drawing closer now than ever before.
Even so, come Lord Jesus.
: TonkaTim Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 16:23:43
Amo, you're making it about temptation when the verse says deceive; deceive the nations.
You're making the binding of Satan all about temptation, not deception.
Even without Satan we as humans will suffer temptation due to our corrupt fallen bodies. The very reason Paul wrote:
Romans 7
"8 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
Now our corruption begins with Satan in the Garden when Eve chose to believe the lie of Satan over the truth of God. Deception.
That persisted till God destroyed the world with the Flood.
Persisted even after that at Babel.
Persisted in the world when God called Abraham.
Persisted when Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt
Kept persisting till Christ.
The whole world had been deceived & believed the father of all lies. Man worshiped creatures not the Creator. Man worshiped idols not God. They worshiped demons not Christ.
They did so because Satan was what Jesus called him, the prince of this world.
He is the strong man Jesus told us about. He had to be bound, chained, limited in his ability to deceive.
We know this happened with the work of Christ.
For Millenia, beginning with just the few, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has gone into the world conquering & plundering the prince's house, bringing the lost sheep into the fold of the Good Shepherd.
To me this is blatantly obvious. It is what has happened.
So much so it appears to me we may now be in the little season because we are seeing such apostasy. We have several folks on this little forum board vehemently arguing against the Deity of Christ & tolerated. What was once the strongholds of Christianity & formerly called Christendom, who sent missionaries all around the world, are now mostly secular nations promoting Secular Humanism. And, what is left, the remnant of Christianity, too much is filled with heresy. The Prosperity gospel has reduced God down to a magic genie there to fulfill all ones carnal desires. Grace is preached that it abounds so greatly that men can live lives of hedonistic carnal pleasure, open & unrepentant sinners, & still call themselves Christian. They even place folks who live openly in total rebellion & enmity to the morality of God in the pulpit. Tickling the ears of men. Returning back to the lies & wickedness of the past; deceived.
The time for the return of our Lord is drawing closer now than ever before.
Even so, come Lord Jesus.
All temptation is in regards to deception. A state of existence only allowed by God until it is understood and eradicated from existence with the acknowledged approval of all the saved and created beings.
Simply denying the bibles clear references to Satan being active in the deception of the world up until it's end at Christ's return, does not make those references go away. They are there, and there meaning is clear to all who are not in denial of the same in support of a pet doctrine or theory.
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;Are you not deceived yourself by one of the above in these latter times? Yes you are, thus you deny the above testimony and claim the devil is no longer able to deceive.
: Amo Sat May 05, 2018 - 09:55:11
All temptation is in regards to deception. A state of existence only allowed by God until it is understood and eradicated from existence with the acknowledged approval of all the saved and created beings.
Simply denying the bibles clear references to Satan being active in the deception of the world up until it's end at Christ's return, does not make those references go away. They are there, and there meaning is clear to all who are not in denial of the same in support of a pet doctrine or theory.
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Are you not deceived yourself by one of the above in these latter times? Yes you are, thus you deny the above testimony and claim the devil is no longer able to deceive.
Matthew 12
" 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first
bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."
Mark3
"27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first
bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house."
John 12
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
I believe Jesus.
Why I said:
: TonkaTim Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 16:23:43
The whole world had been deceived & believed the father of all lies. Man worshiped creatures not the Creator. Man worshiped idols not God. They worshiped demons not Christ.
They did so because Satan was what Jesus called him, the prince of this world.
He is the strong man Jesus told us about. He had to be bound, chained, limited in his ability to deceive.
We know this happened with the work of Christ.
For Millenia, beginning with just the few, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has gone into the world conquering & plundering the prince's house, bringing the lost sheep into the fold of the Good Shepherd.
Are you saying this is not so?
What latter times? The end of the old covenant age. (so obvious!)
"All" in Revelation was to happen soon.
Rev.22:6
John and the Angel
6 The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."( emph. mine)
: Amo Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 15:18:58I do believe that scripture.
I am going to pull an Amo here. You don't believe what the Word of God really says. Here is what the Bible says about the binding of Satan.
The Binding of Satan
The first three verses of Revelation 20 describes an event that surely sends a thrill through every Christian's heart; the binding of Satan. The text says,
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.My Strong conviction is that Jesus bound the devil when he came the first time. Many find it extremely difficult to accept this idea, mainly because they hear the words "binding of Satan" and formulate their own idea of what this must mean before they examine the Biblical data. If Satan is bound, they think, then there should not be any sin or even temptation on the earth. But sin obviously was not eliminated by Christ's first coming and is still abundant on the earth today. Would one not have to be blind to think that Satan is bound in times like these?
The key to understanding the binding of Satan is to pay close attention to what the Bible actually says about it, not only in Rev 20:1-3 but elsewhere in the NT as well. Regarding the latter we begin with the way Scripture describes the purpose of Christ's first coming. Among other things, it is specifically taught that Jesus came to deal with the devil. 1 John 3:8 says, "The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil." Among Satan's works are falsehood and death (John 8:44; Heb 2:14), but Jesus came "to testify to the truth" (John 18:37; see John 8:31-47). He has already "abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10).
Jesus came not only to destroy Satan's works but to "destroy" Satan himself. Hebrews 2:14 clearly states that Jesus came the first time "so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death – that is, the devil" The word rendered "destroy" by the NIV (
katargeo) does not necessarily mean "to annihilate, to abolish completely." Obviously Jesus did not do this to Satan at his first coming. But the word also can mean "to set aside, to make ineffective, to nullify, to render powerless." This is the better understanding here, as in the NASB: Christ come to "render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."
Either way this is very strong language. John says Jesus came specifically to destroy the devil's works; Hebrews says he came to render the devil powerless. We must ask, if this is why Jesus came, did he actually accomplish these things or did he fail? Surely it would be blasphemous to say the latter. Therefore we conclude that Jesus destroyed Satan's works and rendered him powerless from "the binding of Satan" in Rev 20:1-3). If anything, the language of 1 John and Hebrews is even stronger than that of Revelation 20.
What about the expression, "the binding of Satan"? Does this specific language appear elsewhere in Scripture" The answer is yes. In Matt 12:29 (and Mark 3:27) it is used to describe what Jesus was doing during his first advent. Throughout Jesus earthly ministry he was already limiting Satan's power, especially through his many victorious encounters with demonic spirits who had taken over people's bodies. By casting out demons Jesus was demonstrating his power over Satan's kingdom; he was winding the chains around the devil's neck.
Jesus made this very claim in connection with an exorcism recorded in Matt 12:22-30 (see Mark 3:22-27; Luke 11:14-23). Here Jesus explains that in casting out demons he is not working
with Satan but
against him. He uses the illustration of a strong man who is holding people captive in his house, and a stronger man who attacks and overpowers the captor and sets the captives free (Luke 11:21-22). As he explains in Matt 12:29, "or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry of his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house." By casting out demons Jesus was already in the process of binding the devil (the "strong man") during his earthly ministry.
Jesus also gave his disciples the authority to cast our demons (Matt 10:1). In Luke 10:1-20 he sent out 70 evangelists with similar authority. When they returned, they joyfully reported, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name" (Luke 10:17). Jesus replied, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning" (Luke 10:18). Satan's "fall from heaven" here is not his prehistoric, initial sin; it refers to the defeat he was experiencing through Christ's power at the hands of the disciples at that very time. This is the same event described symbolically in Rev 12:7-9,
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.Again this is not Satan's initial sin, but his defeat at the hands of the Messiah at the latter's first coming (Rev 12:1-6).
The death blow against Satan was struck in the death and resurrection of Jesus (see Gen 3:15; John 12:31-33; Col 2:15). On the eve of his crucifixion Jesus announced his imminent mortal combat with the devil (John 14:30). Through his own death he rendered Satan powerless (Heb 2:14), and through his resurrection the victory was complete. The risen victor declares, "I am the first and the last, the living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades " (Rev 1:17-18). The keys here are the same as "the key of the abyss" in Rev 20:1. A key is symbolic of power and authority. Through his death and resurrection Jesus gained power over the abyss – realm of death, Satan's proper domain; and with that power he both locks Satan himself in the abyss and rescues those who have been held captive there (Heb 2:15). Revelation 20:1-3 thus symbolically represents Christ's present control over Satan and his works, and the consequent limitation of his power.
Some will still be skeptical that "the binding of Satan" has been a reality since Christ's first coming. Again this is because they have created their own idea of what this should entail, i.e., the earth should be a perfect place, free from sin and filled with righteousness, peace, and prosperity. But this is not how things have been. So how can this be the millennium? How can we accept the idea that Satan is bound now? We can do this if we do not jump to unwarranted conclusions about the results of Satan's binding. Does the Bible actually say that this binding will result in a paradise-like world? No. In fact, Rev 20:3 states very specifically that the single purpose of Satan's binding is "so that he would not deceive the nations any longer."
The question is whether this was actually a result of Christ's first coming, and the answer is yes. Satan's main activity is deception. John 8:44 says, 'he is a liar and the father of lies." Revelation 12:9 describes him, prior to his defeat at Christ's first coming, as the one "who deceives the whole world," He is the source of lies, false teachings, false religions, and all idolatry. With the exception of Israel, prior to Christ's first coming the entire world – all nations
as nations – was totally engulfed in Satan's lies, languishing in darkness (see Rom 1:18-32). But what happened when Christ came? He accomplished the works of redemption, thus defeating the devil and his hosts. The gospel -- the good news about the saving power of Christ -- is the
gospel truth that dispels Satan's lies and brings light and life to all the world (2 Tim 1:10),
This is exactly how the risen Jesus described Paul's mission to the Gentiles, i.e., to the nations: "to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me" (Acts 26:18). this tells us that prior to the preaching of the gospel, the nations were in darkness; they were the domain of Satan. But as the gospel has been preached "to all the nations" in obedience to the Great Commission (Luke 24:47; see Matt 28:18-20, Mark 16:15), multitudes "from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues" (rev 7:9) have been delivered from captivity to the devil. In terms of Rev 20:1-3,
the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the chain that binds Satan, so that is not able to deceive the nations any longer.
This does not mean that Satan is doing nothing today. He still roams about, like a roaring lion, seeking to devour us (1 Pet 5:8). But Christ has established a safety zone, as it were, a place where Satan has no power. It is the church, which is the realm over which Christ reigns in his millennial kingship, a haven from the forces of death (Matt 16:18), and "the pillar and support of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15). Anyone who accepts the truth of the gospel and surrenders to the Lordship of Christ is rescued from captivity to Satan and set free to live beyond the reach of his lying mouth and slashing claws.
The results of Christ's initial binding of Satan are bestowed on individuals. When one makes his choice to follow Christ instead of Satan, the almighty power of Jesus Christ binds the devil in reference to that person's life. Jesus has already bound the strong man as such; when we preach the gospel and convert individuals, we are in effect plundering the strong man's house and carrying off his property (Matt 12:29). Because this has already been done on a worldwide basis, with practically every nation being exposed to Christ's liberating power to some degree, it can no longer be said that Satan is deceiving the Nations. Therefore, in terms of Rev 20:1-3,
: 4WD Tue May 08, 2018 - 16:31:25
The Binding of Satan
The first three verses of Revelation 20 describes an event that surely sends a thrill through every Christian's heart; the binding of Satan. The text says,
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
My Strong conviction is that Jesus bound the devil when he came the first time. Many find it extremely difficult to accept this idea, mainly because they hear the words "binding of Satan" and formulate their own idea of what this must mean before they examine the Biblical data. If Satan is bound, they think, then there should not be any sin or even temptation on the earth. But sin obviously was not eliminated by Christ's first coming and is still abundant on the earth today. Would one not have to be blind to think that Satan is bound in times like these?
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that during the age of the Church, Satan is bound?
That brings to mind this following scripture Paul taught around 60AD.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (Why worry about it?)
Thanks.
: larry2 Tue May 08, 2018 - 19:18:05If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that during the age of the Church, Satan is bound?
That brings to mind this following scripture Paul taught around 60AD.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (Why worry about it?)
Thanks.
The last paragraph of what I posted:
: 4WD Tue May 08, 2018 - 16:31:25
The results of Christ's initial binding of Satan are bestowed on individuals. When one makes his choice to follow Christ instead of Satan, the almighty power of Jesus Christ binds the devil in reference to that person's life. Jesus has already bound the strong man as such; when we preach the gospel and convert individuals, we are in effect plundering the strong man's house and carrying off his property (Matt 12:29). Because this has already been done on a worldwide basis, with practically every nation being exposed to Christ's liberating power to some degree, it can no longer be said that Satan is deceiving the Nations. Therefore, in terms of Rev 20:1-3,
: larry2 Tue May 08, 2018 - 19:18:05
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that during the age of the Church, Satan is bound?
That brings to mind this following scripture Paul taught around 60AD.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (Why worry about it?)
: 4WD Tue May 08, 2018 - 16:31:25
The Binding of Satan
The results of Christ's initial binding of Satan are bestowed on individuals. When one makes his choice to follow Christ instead of Satan, the almighty power of Jesus Christ binds the devil in reference to that person's life. Jesus has already bound the strong man as such; when we preach the gospel and convert individuals, we are in effect plundering the strong man's house and carrying off his property (Matt 12:29). Because this has already been done on a worldwide basis, with practically every nation being exposed to Christ's liberating power to some degree, it can no longer be said that Satan is deceiving the Nations. Therefore, in terms of Rev 20:1-3,
Thanks for clarifying that for me. Would you then say, or is your position that just because a person receives Jesus into their lives does not ensure protection against Satan? In other words they must commit to never sin?
Another question on this if you will, when were the nations ever taught?
: larry2 Wed May 09, 2018 - 12:09:26
Thanks for clarifying that for me. Would you then say, or is your position that just because a person receives Jesus into their lives does not ensure protection against Satan? In other words they must commit to never sin?
The Holy Spirit is given as a helper, not as insurance against difficulties.
: larry2Another question on this if you will, when were the nations ever taught?
I didn't say the nations were ever taught. But that is, however, a commandment that we Christians have been given (Matt 28:19-20). And I would add that by this time, the gospel has been preached to one extent or another in most of the world.
: 4WD Wed May 09, 2018 - 18:08:07
I didn't say the nations were ever taught. But that is, however, a commandment that we Christians have been given (Matt 28:19-20). And I would add that by this time, the gospel has been preached to one extent or another in most of the world.
Just when do you suppose Jesus will take that "All power given Him in heaven and earth" of Mt 28:18, and begin "putting down all rule and all authority and power" of 1 Cor 15:24. Will the teaching to the nations dubbed the Great Commission be done during the millennium?
Aren't the instructions for this present time those of Mark 16:15 ? And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature, and it was done? Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Will these following scriptures come to pass in that day?
Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet. For in that He put all in subjection under Him, he left nothing that is not put under Him. But now we see not yet all things put under Him (Jesus).
: larry2 Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 10:02:01
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
When, and where does this occur?
The First Liturgical Year of the Judgment began during the Civil Year of 2015 A.D. (2015 A.D. - 2016 A.D.) because it contains the 1,335th day of Daniel 12:12, Ascension Sunday, May 8, 2016 A.D., which contains the blessing for those who wait and come unto that day.
Jesus Christ has (and shall forever more do) shortened the days in this regard in the infinite universe.
: fish153 Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 14:08:43
soterion---
I think the Scripture is very clear about this---and Amo was attempting to share that. The problem is that preterists have their own definitions of words like "soon" etc, believing "soon" could not possibly mean 2000 years. I believe the bible is very clear that Satan is at work during this present age, and has not been bound or destroyed. And I think that 95% of Christendom would agree with that. Sorry, but have to disagree with you there.
: soterion Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 17:27:29
Okay, but exactly the same thing can be said right back to you regarding your own definition of words, this time that "soon" has to mean "2,000+ years later."
You see, if it can mean that, then it means nothing. ::pondering::
I'm sorry Solterion that I just noticed this post, but would you consider the interpretation of words such as the term "The Lord's Day"? Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . . According to Rev 4:2, that is the day a throne was set (placed) in heaven, and One sat on the throne, and that One was Jesus.
It will be at that time that Jesus exercises that all power and authority He has been given in Mt 28:18. The Apostle John was caught forward in time as it were to be shown things that would be hereafter from that point in time, and those things which must shortly come to pass (Rev 4:1).
: fish153 Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 10:33:30
Larry----
When jesus returns the saints will be raptured and the Tribulation will begin. During this period taking place on earth, the Judgment seat of Christ will take place. the FINAL JUDGMENT will occur at the very end of time (after Satan has been bound for a thousand years and the Millenium has occurred)---
the Judgment Seat of Christ is an entirely different event and takes place much earlier than the final judgment.
Dear Brother Fish, please forgive me for not seeing your reply here prior to this. Somehow I'm not receiving emails or notices to all replies, and yet I receive some. ???
I can say amen to your reply and thanks.
: the_sign Thu May 10, 2018 - 00:50:05
The First Liturgical Year of the Judgment began during the Civil Year of 2015 A.D. (2015 A.D. - 2016 A.D.) because it contains the 1,335th day of Daniel 12:12, Ascension Sunday, May 8, 2016 A.D., which contains the blessing for those who wait and come unto that day.
Jesus Christ has (and shall forever more do) shortened the days in this regard in the infinite universe.
Good morning The_Sign. The word "Liturgical" means religious to my understanding, and I'm interested what you're saying began 2015 A.D. - 2016 A.D, and your reasoning behind it. Thanks.
: larry2 Thu May 10, 2018 - 05:00:22
I'm sorry Solterion that I just noticed this post, but would you consider the interpretation of words such as the term "The Lord's Day"? Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . . According to Rev 4:2, that is the day a throne was set (placed) in heaven, and One sat on the throne, and that One was Jesus.
It will be at that time that Jesus exercises that all power and authority He has been given in Mt 28:18. The Apostle John was caught forward in time as it were to be shown things that would be hereafter from that point in time, and those things which must shortly come to pass (Rev 4:1).
We have already been there and done that. Go back and reread our posts to each other in the first two pages on this thread.
To sum up my position from this thread and others we have posted to:
1. Jesus is ruling now on the throne with all of the authority given to Him. This rule began after His resurrection.
2. The Lord's Day in Rev 1 is simply a first day of the week. John wasn't taken out of the time and place he was physically in to receive the visions.
3. Jesus is not on the throne in Rev 4:1-5:14. The One on the throne in that context of John's vision is the Father.
I will be glad to answer any other questions or clarify anything you would like...just ask. ::smile::
: soterion Thu May 10, 2018 - 08:42:21
Jesus is ruling now on the throne with all of the authority given to Him.
Any idea why all usurping nations aren't brought into Jesus' control, and he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power? Let's see, you're saying that Jesus has been working at that now for close to 2000 years?
: larry2 Thu May 10, 2018 - 09:35:52
Any idea why all usurping nations aren't brought into Jesus' control, and he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power? Let's see, you're saying that Jesus has been working at that now for close to 2000 years?
It seems quite clear in all of this that you really are terribly confused about what the gospel is all about. You are using the Calvinist definition of "in control" and that is completely false.
: 4WD Thu May 10, 2018 - 10:17:54
It seems quite clear in all of this that you really are terribly confused about what the gospel is all about. You are using the Calvinist definition of "in control" and that is completely false.
Sounds like a typical reply from someone who can't answer the question. ::smile::
: larry2 Thu May 10, 2018 - 10:23:57
Sounds like a typical reply from someone who can't answer the question. ::smile::
I think the question has been answered many times. You just don't like the answer. He is in control. He, like the Father, is sovereign and all power and authority has been given Him in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18).
: 4WD Thu May 10, 2018 - 10:30:25
I think the question has been answered many times. You just don't like the answer. He is in control. He, like the Father, is sovereign and all power and authority has been given Him in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18).
The problem arises when you say something that leaves an opening for a reply, and i don't remember if i answered you, or who, and i answer it again. Let me try this.
Act 7:55 But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, (Is Jesus on His throne here?)
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (Does Jesus do this while exercising His all power and authority?)
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
In Rev 4:2 Jesus receives His own throne, and is surrounded by 24 elders, and has 4 living ones in the midst of His throne according to Rev 4:6; are you a part of either one? If not, why? I don't think I have asked you this before.
Will you be a part of the great multitude that comes to Jesus out of great tribulation since you missed being present with Jesus when He received His own throne? It appears you missed any opportunity of being caught up to be with Christ pre-trib huh?
When do you think the tribulation begins since you believe Jesus received His own throne when He was resurrected? Since Jesus judges us while we are in these bodies, and He is seen by John after His death walking in the midst of the candlesticks (churches). (Rev 2:1). Where are we at in the scheme of things to come hereafter, and just what do you think John is to write of the viewpoint of things which are? (Rev 1:19) Will John be shown things which are, and describe them prior to describing the things which will be hereafter?
Since judgment begins at the house of God (1 Pet 4:17), and we are a part of the Church, do you think John saw Jesus walking among the churches in 95 A.D., or bringing about the things to occur hereafter we read of in Rev 4:1.
Thanks.
: larry2 Thu May 10, 2018 - 11:53:50Act 7:55 But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, (Is Jesus on His throne here?)
Does God sit? Does God stand? Does Jesus? Does God have a right hand? Or a left? What does any of that really mean?
: 4WD Thu May 10, 2018 - 12:39:46
Does God sit? Does God stand? Does Jesus? Does God have a right hand? Or a left? What does any of that really mean?
I think it's the power of God, but maybe you can run your knowledge of it by me. I believe that our Savior is acting as our meadiator in this present age of the Church, and I do not believe He has received His own throne, or will until the Lord's Day at the end of this present time. Gimme your best shot at this.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Not will be given; but rather has been given.
: 4WD Thu May 10, 2018 - 13:14:01
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Not will be given; but rather has been given.
You are right, but has Jesus taken that all power as some suggest? What do you think of the following scripture?
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
At this point in time, in your opinion is Jesus actually reigning as King of kings, and Lord of lords? And like I asked another brother, will you be one of the 24 elders or four living ones round about Him when He does? Do you know which churches are those two groups of one company present with Jesus when there is a throne placed in heaven for Jesus in Rev 4:2??
Revelation 3:
20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. 21To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
: larry2 Thu May 10, 2018 - 05:16:08
Good morning The_Sign. The word "Liturgical" means religious to my understanding, and I'm interested what you're saying began 2015 A.D. - 2016 A.D, and your reasoning behind it. Thanks.
The Holy Spirit has sent a key prophecy in the 1500's A.D. in the Roman calendar first, which then leads directly into the counting of the lunar month reckonings of Daniel 12:11 and 12:12.
http://risen-from-the-dead.forumotion.com/t102-century-iv-95#129
http://risen-from-the-dead.forumotion.com/t103-century-v-53
I witnessed the passing of one of the group of the three kings of Persia foretold in Daniel 11:2 in 2009 A.D. and I bear witness to the French prophecy which provides a direct link to that which is foretold in Daniel 12:12, and that specific 1,335th day is Ascension Sunday, May 8, 2016 A.D., which is within the 2015 A.D. - 2016 A.D. Liturgical Year.
The Liturgical Year includes the observance of when the church year begins and ends, as well as feast days within it.
: larry2 Thu May 10, 2018 - 09:35:52
Any idea why all usurping nations aren't brought into Jesus' control, and he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power? Let's see, you're saying that Jesus has been working at that now for close to 2000 years?
I will try to answer most of your questions with this longish post. If you have any more questions, just ask.
Is Jesus on His throne at this time?
1. In Psalm 110, Jesus is to sit at God's right hand (v.1), He is to rule until His enemies are made His footstool (v.1), His scepter will be stretched over Zion as He rules in the midst of His enemies (v.2), the people will volunteer in the day of His power (v.3), He will be a priest during this rule (v.4), He will shatter kings and judge the nations, etc. while at God's right hand (vv.5-7).
2. In Psalm 2, Jesus is to be opposed by the rulers (vv.1-3), God in heaven scoffs at their attempts to stop His plan (vv.4-5), God sets up Jesus as King on Zion (vv.6-7), the King is given everything as His possession (v.8), the King will oppose His enemies with a rod of iron (v.9), the people are encouraged to worship the King and to take refuge in Him (vv.10-12).
3. Acts 2:22-36 and 4:24-28 and Hebrews 1:5 & 13 all quote from these two Psalms to describe their having already been fulfilled in Christ.
4. In Psalm 16:8-11, David prophesies of his descendant who will be resurrected to sit on his throne, in fulfillment of the prophecy given in 2 Samuel 7:12-17, according to Peter in Acts 2:22-36. Peter is clear that Jesus has fulfilled these prophecies by His resurrection and ascension to the throne of David. Jesus now exercises that authority over the people of God as King and High Priest.
5. If Christ is presently High Priest, and He is, then He is now seated on David's throne over His kingdom as prophesied and promised. Even Zechariah 6:12-13 describes the fact that the Messiah will rule on the throne in the capacity of both King and Priest. Christ's throne and His priesthood go together and are inseparable.
6. In 1 Corinthians 15:23-28, Christ is to rule until His enemies are made a footstool for His feet. The last enemy is death. When He has abolished all of His enemies, He will deliver the kingdom to God in heaven. Compare your Hebrews 2:8 reference to 1 Corinthians 15:23-28. Christ is currently ruling with all authority. The last enemy to be subjected is death. When He has subjected death and the resurrection of all takes place, then it is the end and He will subject Himself to the One who gave Him all rule and authority.
We have a promise to sit the Messiah on the throne of David, we have David anticipating this and writing of the resurrection of the Messiah and His consequent rule from heaven until His enemies are all conquered, and we have Paul writing that Jesus will reign until His enemies are all conquered at which time He will return to deliver the kingdom up to the Father.
If you acknowledge Jesus is now High Priest, and if you acknowledge that He is now at the right hand of God, then you have to accept the rest of what the Psalms are saying about Him and His rule.
Part of the problem may be with understanding what is meant by the word "throne." Is it supposed to be defined as a physical chair? No, the throne is a term that refers to the authority over the kingdom. Compare this to Matthew 23:1. The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses. Jesus was not referring to a physical chair, but rather to that position of authority.
Jesus does not have to be described as "sitting" in order to be described as King on His throne. He can be described as standing, walking, whatever. The point is that He has the authority as King and Priest. As High Priest He mediates and as King He rules. Jesus has been doing these since His resurrection and ascension into heaven.
: larry2 Wed May 09, 2018 - 21:07:35
Just when do you suppose Jesus will take that "All power given Him in heaven and earth" of Mt 28:18, and begin "putting down all rule and all authority and power" of 1 Cor 15:24. Will the teaching to the nations dubbed the Great Commission be done during the millennium?
Aren't the instructions for this present time those of Mark 16:15 ? And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature, and it was done? Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Well, you just quoted Romans 10:18 that says "all the earth," and "the ends of the world" have heard. Here are two more passages:
Romans 16:26.
but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:
Colossians 1:23.
if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.
The gospel went to all nations and to all creation under heaven in the midst of the first century.
Christ is to rule in the midst of His enemies.
That implies the existence of enemies, and therefore the works of those enemies, during Christ's rule. The passage does not say that His enemies will be removed and then He will rule. In fact, Psalm 110 and 1 Corinthians 15:24-26 tells us that He will rule until He has completely subdued all of His enemies. Then He will deliver the kingdom up to God.
The enemies Christ rules in the midst of are described in Ephesians 6:12. To the extent that we should not define the kingdom of God as being physical and earthly, that is the extent that we should not define our and Christ's enemies as -only- physical and earthly.
The argument that Christ is not ruling as King because He hasn't apparently, or visibly, put down all rule and authority and power is, to me, a mistaken understanding of the scriptures. In addition, it basically says God has never ruled the earth and all who are on it. If we can acknowledge together that God has always been in control, then why not acknowledge that Christ rules now?
larry2 - Just sticking in my two cents here. You said above that you DO believe that the Savior is currently acting as our mediator in this present age of the church, but that you DON'T believe He has received His own throne yet, and won't until the end of this present time. To prove this, you are using the Hebrews 2:8 text that you believe says Christ has not got all things put under Him yet.
There is something wrong with both of these ideas. In the first place, Christ's position as acting mediator and high priest for us *IS* HIS THRONE...because His throne is the MERCY-SEAT in heaven's temple, where his role as high priest was established the same day He resurrected and ascended to the Father that first day of the week. Christ already sitting on this mercy-seat throne in heaven as our high priest was a doctrine taught by Peter on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:29-36). As of that time, Jesus had already been made "Lord and Christ". All power was already given unto Him at His resurrection and ascension that same day, as Christ plainly told his disciples in the Matthew 28:18 passage.
As for the Hebrews 2:8 text...this is NOT describing Jesus, without yet having all things put under him. It is describing the condition of the SAINTS OF GOD at the time Hebrews was written, compared to Adam and Eve's condition, who were originally created to have dominion over all the world and every living thing in it, and told to subdue it (Gen. 1:28). When this couple yielded obedience to Satan's council to disobey their Creator, they became "servants to sin" (Rom 6:16-17). Their fallen, degraded status gave Satan the role of "the god of this world". To help counter Satan's evil influence in this world, as well as that of the evil angels under his control, God set up a "divine council" of righteous angels to operate in this world. This was in the days of Peleg, when the nations were divided up according to the number of the angels of God (Deut. 32:8). The righteous angels' delegated task was to implement God's plans for the nations, and to counter the influence of the evil angels operating within the nations of the world. We see evidences of this conflict in Daniel, between the evil and righteous members of the angelic world opposing each other at that time.
God did not intend this supervision of mankind and the nations by the angelic "divine council" to last forever, though. He intended to rid this planet of all demonic evil by the close of AD 70. To accomplish this purpose, God's incarnate Son died and provided the means, so that eventually, "through death, he might DESTROY him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Hebrews 2:14), thus relieving mankind of Satan's oppressive, evil influence. Once this was accomplished by the end of the Old Covenant days, the supervision of the nations by the righteous, angelic "divine council" was no longer a necessity. Their "job description" changed, as of the close of AD 70. Instead of the angels acting as God's "divine council" representatives on earth, every saint who had the Holy Spirit residing within them was given the task of "going into all the world to preach the gospel to every creature". The commission God had given the divine council back in the Old Testament days to affect the nations for good became the "Great Commission" for all the saints of God to participate in, under the New Covenant.
As of the time Hebrews was written, the saints were still under subjection to the oversight of the divine council of the righteous angelic world, as well as being oppressed still by demonic evil . For the saints of God in Hebrews 2:8, their current condition at that time was this: "But NOW we see NOT YET all things put under him" (not yet put under the saints' jurisdiction, that is). The soon-to-come shift in this state of affairs was predicted by Hebrews 2:5: "For unto the angels hath he NOT put in subjection THE WORLD TO COME (the habitable world), whereof we speak." Hebrews chapter 1:10-12 had just been speaking about the New Heavens and the New Earth conditions which were coming after the Old Covenant would be shaken and all the physical elements of it removed. In this New Heaven New Earth condition for the whole habitable world, angels would no longer be acting in a supervisory capacity anymore within the nations: instead, as Daniel 7:22, 27 said, the time would come on when the saints would "possess the kingdom" (vicariously, they would be "kings and priests" through their relationship to Jesus Christ their great high priest, sitting on heaven's throne of the mercy-seat.
Jesus was already "CROWNED with glory and honor" in the view of the Hebrews saints, because it says that "WE SEE JESUS...*CROWNED* with glory and honor" already in that Heb. 2:9. He was already sitting on the "throne of His glory". It had been a done deal ever since His resurrection day when He ascended to the Father that first time.
Dear brethren Solterion & 3 Resurrections.
Thanks for your replies. I will certainly go back into study of Heb 2:8 as pertaining to Jesus being spoken here as the captain of our salvation, coming as a son of man, and bringing many sons to glory.
As pertaining to the book of Revelation, I do not see the evidence in scripture, or result of deliverance at this point of the things hereafter of Rev 4:1. I do not see the taking to Himself the 24 elders and 4 living ones of Rev 4:4 & rev 4:6 at this present time. I do read the prophesy of Jesus that says He will receive His own throne in Rev 4:2 on the Lord's Day.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
: larry2 Fri May 11, 2018 - 02:17:02
I do read the prophesy of Jesus that says He will receive His own throne in Rev 4:2 on the Lord's Day.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
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Nothing in Revelation 4:2 says that Jesus is receiving His own throne or that this is the Lord's Day. Nothing.
Here are some thoughts that might help us to understand the vision a bit better:
1. Where it says "a throne was standing in heaven," the phrase "was standing" is in the imperfect tense. The imperfect tense refers to past continuous actions. In other words, John saw a throne that had already been standing in heaven. It didn't just start "standing" there, it had been standing there for whatever length of time prior to John seeing it.
2. Where it says "and One sitting on the throne," the word "sitting" is a present participle. The present participle simply refers to continuous, ongoing, or repeated action, without necessarily telling us the time frame of the action except in relation to the main verb in the context. In other words, John saw One sitting on the throne. He had been sitting on it to the extent that the throne had been standing.
The way I have to read Rev 4:2 is that John saw something that had already been going on prior to his receiving the vision. There is a throne in heaven and God sits on it, and John was given to see it in his vision. As far as I am concerned, God has always been sitting on His throne and ruling His creation throughout all history. John didn't see anything "beginning" in that verse.
Oh and, by the way, that's not Jesus on the throne. ::smile::
: soterion Fri May 11, 2018 - 10:56:22
Nothing in Revelation 4:2 says that Jesus is receiving His own throne or that this is the Lord's Day. Nothing.
Here are some thoughts that might help us to understand the vision a bit better:
1. Where it says "a throne was standing in heaven," the phrase "was standing" is in the imperfect tense. The imperfect tense refers to past continuous actions. In other words, John saw a throne that had already been standing in heaven. It didn't just start "standing" there, it had been standing there for whatever length of time prior to John seeing it.
2. Where it says "and One sitting on the throne," the word "sitting" is a present participle. The present participle simply refers to continuous, ongoing, or repeated action, without necessarily telling us the time frame of the action except in relation to the main verb in the context. In other words, John saw One sitting on the throne. He had been sitting on it to the extent that the throne had been standing.
The way I have to read Rev 4:2 is that John saw something that had already been going on prior to his receiving the vision. There is a throne in heaven and God sits on it, and John was given to see it in his vision. As far as I am concerned, God has always been sitting on His throne and ruling His creation throughout all history. John didn't see anything "beginning" in that verse.
Oh and, by the way, that's not Jesus on the throne. ::smile::
Then I reckon I'm glad I don't read the bible as you do. ::smile::
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God (Is this Jesus?), the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And you say that the One sitting on the throne in Rev 4:2 isn't Jesus? ::shrug::
: larry2 Fri May 11, 2018 - 12:02:16
And you say that the One sitting on the throne in Rev 4:2 isn't Jesus? [/size] ::shrug::
That's exactly right.
Try this:
1. Read Revelation chapters 4 and 5 in one sitting.
2. Identify who is the Lamb
You should be able to see that the Lamb and the One on the throne in 5:4-7 are two different persons. You should also be able to tell from the straight reading of the two chapters that the One sitting on the throne in 5:7 is the same One in 4:2. Of course, it should be easy to see that the Lamb is not sitting on the throne.
The One sitting on the throne in 4:2 and 5:7 has a different identity from the Lamb. If you acknowledge that the Lamb is Jesus, then the One sitting on the throne cannot be Jesus.
So, who could that One be who is sitting on the throne in chapters 4 and 5? The Father, of course. ::smile::
: soterion Fri May 11, 2018 - 12:53:02
Try this:
1. Read Revelation chapters 4 and 5 in one sitting.
2. Identify who is the Lamb
You should be able to see that the Lamb and the One on the throne in 5:4-7 are two different persons. You should also be able to tell from the straight reading of the two chapters that the One sitting on the throne in 5:7 is the same One in 4:2. Of course, it should be easy to see that the Lamb is not sitting on the throne.
The One sitting on the throne in 4:2 and 5:7 has a different identity from the Lamb. If you acknowledge that the Lamb is Jesus, then the One sitting on the throne cannot be Jesus.
So, who could that One be who is sitting on the throne in chapters 4 and 5? The Father, of course. ::smile::
What throne do you suspect Jesus to ever have, and where will it be? Is there but one throne in heaven?
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Aren't these two ranks of believers those Jesus comes out of to go to His Father's throne in Rev 5:7?
Rev 5:7 And he (Jesus) came and took the book out of the right hand of him (Our Father) that sat upon the throne. Jesus goes from His newly acquired throne of Rev 4:2 to our Father's throne in Rev 5:7.
Are you a part of either the 24 elders of Rev 4:4, or 4 living ones of Rev 4:6 if there are special saints caught up prior to the tribulation? There used to be a teaching "Left behind," is that you if all this has already occurred?
Are these following scriptures uttered by our Lord Jesus?
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
: larry2 Fri May 11, 2018 - 15:40:09
What throne do you suspect Jesus to ever have, and where will it be? Is there but one throne in heaven?
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-judgment-seat-of-christ-99153/msg1055102241/#msg1055102241 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-judgment-seat-of-christ-99153/msg1055102241/#msg1055102241)
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Aren't these two ranks of believers those Jesus comes out of to go to His Father's throne in Rev 5:7?
Rev 5:7 And he (Jesus) came and took the book out of the right hand of him (Our Father) that sat upon the throne. Jesus goes from His newly acquired throne of Rev 4:2 to our Father's throne in Rev 5:7.
This is why you need to read chapters 4 and 5 straight through. You will see that there is no break in the vision, and that the One sitting on the throne in 4:2 remains on the throne throughout the two chapters. Jesus shows up in 5:6-7 in this vision.
Jesus goes from His newly acquired throne of Rev 4:2...
The Greek says otherwise:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-judgment-seat-of-christ-99153/msg1055102317/#msg1055102317 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-judgment-seat-of-christ-99153/msg1055102317/#msg1055102317)
: 4WD Thu May 10, 2018 - 13:14:01
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Not will be given; but rather has been given.
That's right. Can you list the portions of Revelation after Rev 4:1 concerning the hereafter that Jesus has began?
: soterion Fri May 11, 2018 - 12:53:02
That's exactly right.
Try this:
1. Read Revelation chapters 4 and 5 in one sitting.
2. Identify who is the Lamb
You should be able to see that the Lamb and the One on the throne in 5:4-7 are two different persons. You should also be able to tell from the straight reading of the two chapters that the One sitting on the throne in 5:7 is the same One in 4:2. Of course, it should be easy to see that the Lamb is not sitting on the throne.
The One sitting on the throne in 4:2 and 5:7 has a different identity from the Lamb. If you acknowledge that the Lamb is Jesus, then the One sitting on the throne cannot be Jesus.
So, who could that One be who is sitting on the throne in chapters 4 and 5? The Father, of course. ::smile::
I reckon we'll just have to agree if you can to disagree.
: larry2 Fri May 11, 2018 - 18:19:53
I reckon we'll just have to agree if you can to disagree.
Of course. ::smile::
: larry2 Fri May 11, 2018 - 18:14:16
That's right. Can you list the portions of Revelation after Rev 4:1 concerning the hereafter that Jesus has began?
I don't understand the question.
After the Jesus (the slain Lamb) had the authority to open the seals, scripture tells us it must all happen soon.
Jesus "finished" it too. ::clappingoverhead::
: 4WD Thu May 10, 2018 - 13:14:01
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Not will be given; but rather has been given.
That's right. Can you list the portions of Revelation after Rev 4:1 concerning the hereafter that Jesus has began?: 4WD Sat May 12, 2018 - 06:41:15
I don't understand the question.
In other words, my understanding of your end times series of events is that Jesus is already on His throne ever since His resurrection. If I'm wrong I apologize.
I responded with the following post URL concerning Jesus having not taken that all power and exercised. When He actually takes it in the hereafter of Rev 4:1, we'll see His role as King of kings, and all authority and power being put down. In the present view of what's going on now is Jesus walking among the candlesticks judging the churches.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-judgment-seat-of-christ-99153/msg1055102214/#msg1055102214
If you have a different view, please let me hear it. Thanks
: TonkaTim Sat May 05, 2018 - 12:39:55
Matthew 12
" 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."
Mark3
"27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house."
John 12
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
I believe Jesus.
Why I said:
Are you saying this is not so?
You believe what Jesus said that agrees with your present point I know, but apparently ignore that which He said which does not support the same.
Rev 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God,
and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.You are denial of the above testimony of Jesus Christ. Satan cannot be bound from tempting the world, and make war with Christ's own and deceive the entire world at the same time. Christ defeated Satan at the cross, but the war between truth and deception continues until the end. All must decide concerning the same.
: larry2 Sat May 12, 2018 - 10:24:14
In other words, my understanding of your end times series of events is that Jesus is already on His throne ever since His resurrection. If I'm wrong I apologize.
No, since His ascension (Acts 2:32-36).
: larry2 Sat May 12, 2018 - 10:24:14
My understanding of your end times series of events is that Jesus is already on His throne ever since His resurrection.
: 4WD Sat May 12, 2018 - 11:24:42
No, since His ascension (Acts 2:32-36).
And you want to debate the words resurrection, raised, and ascended?
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Thanks anyway .