I've been in the "Christian Life" for many, many years. I grew up "in the church" (CofC), was baptized very young, and recently I feel like I found Christ for the first time (stripped bare of the fundamentalist dogma I was taught growing up). But sometimes I find myself questioning things, which in turn leads me to wondering why I'm even a Christian, and other than telling myself "because I have faith", I've got nothing, not really.
So tell me this: why should we choose Christianity over any other religion? What's it got that others don't?
Kalen,
Have you read The Case for Christ? The title of your thread reminded me of that. I just read it a few months ago.
A study of Christian evidences and studying the historical accuracy of the Bible can be very reassuring to our faith. There are also some very profound differences between Christianity and other religions that set it apart.
Perhaps others will have more to add. But, those are just some of my general thoughts without going in depth.
I haven't read that book yet, but my name is on the hold list at the local library. Right now I'm reading "A New Kind of Christian" by Brian McLaren.
I just have so many questions right now and sense I'm headed into a desert in my faith. That's a bit scary (as I'm sure you can imagine). I thought that perhaps, talking it through here might help a little....
Mostly there's the nagging little doubts I keep having. For every "proof" there seems to be something equally oppositional.
And before anyone goes there, I KNOW Christians aren't supposed to talk like this.
:(
I have to start philosophically with it. There are different kinds of "arguments" for the existence of God. Usually, this is covered in a formal study of Christian Evidences. One of my favorites is the Design Argument.
It basically goes like this... "design demands a designer." If I find a watch with all its working components... it's system and its functionality... it is apparent that an intelligence designed it... it is illogical to think that a watch, or a computer, or even the chair you're sitting in could have come together by chance without someone (an intelligence) designing it.
Look around at the world, the universe... the earth with its ecosystem, its change of seasons... a mankind that has intelligence. These are evidence of a higher intelligence that put it all together. It is illogical to think that these things formed by random chance without a supreme intelligence creating it all.
I don't have a problem with belief in God. I question "Why Christianity"? Not even that I have a problem with Christianity... I just find myself wondering what it has that others don't. A reaffirmation of faith in Christ, if you will.
Just out of curiosity, why have YOU chosen Christianity over all the other religions? Why should ANYONE choose it over all the other religions?
I don't have a problem with belief in God. I question "Why Christianity"? Not even that I have a problem with Christianity... I just find myself wondering what it has that others don't. A reaffirmation of faith in Christ, if you will.
Why have YOU chosen Christianity over all the other religions?
Again, establishing the existence of God is just the starting point. So, the next question is... why the God of the Bible, and why Christianity... I don't have time now... but, I'll plan to say more about this later.
Love that would sacrifice its live for another - this makes no sense if the world is wholly natural, yet humans have done this largescale for as long as we've known history
Love defined - chemicals and biology can't adequately explain it for me... I know that mankind is made up of the material of animals yet has characteristics wholly different... we can love, we can hate, we can appreciate music and the fine arts, we philosophize, we become ingrained in our silly positions, we are amazing intellectual creatures
The human body - is absolutely incredible... practically all of us mistreat ours, we feed it terribly, we don't utilize it (Because western society prides itself on being lazy), we pump it continually full of hormones, drugs and preservatives, and even then it knows how to fix all those things and survive for upwards of 60 years... the eye, the brain, the muscular, skeletal and nervous system... the digestive system is the most efficient thermogenetic reactor in the world... no scientist has ever (or will ever) build its parallel..
Babies, the process of life - I just had a baby boy 11 months ago... I am amazed at how from the moment I saw him I loved him, and how every day I see a human learning before my eyes. We are no random creatures... we were designed by something which is far greater than the skin we are in.
Creation - creation is incredible, the way it works together in perfect and destructive ways. The changing of the seasons, the tides, the process of tearing down and building up, beautiful flowers (I believe they were meant for us as well as the bees), majestic trees, primevil forests, amazing animals, rivers that are inanimate yet animated..
I list the details regarding physical things above because evolution is a religion, whether scientists or Christians want to admit it...
Alternate religion - Bhuddism - I've studied many world religions because I've doubted as you have. I've studied Bhuddism which states that there is no god, only enlightenment and its acheived through losing oneself or through self realization through the tasks one does.. creation, love, all the designed things I see tell me absolutely there is a God. Siddharta Guatama (sp?) wasn't a person worth emulating in my sight... he died from ulcers probably.. a result of his gluttony... who is he for a mathetes (teacher) in this world? Jesus is my mathetes.. his every action is consistent with every word he ever spoke.
Hinduism - a polytheistic pagan religion.. I see it nothing but a holdover from the pagan Canaanite religions the Israelites battled in the Old Testament. The Vedas make no sense, the process of reincarnation is almost atheistic in its process... the sexual side of Hinduism is insidious and not righteous at all... nothing I want to be. The Hindus are simply worshipping the old gods of Canaan, revamped into new twisted forms. The symbolism is obvious... animals meshed with human parts.. offerings in the form of sexual acts, fertility, and other pagan things. Even the Ramayana the national epic of India is based on the acts of the fallen angels who came down to men in Geneis 5 (at least thats my perception). Hindus are worshipping these fallen angels just as men worshipped Baal in the time of the Abraham, just as mankind worshipped Nimrod in the days when "mighty men" or the offspring of angelic/human relationships still walked the Earth... (this is deep stuff... please inquire if you don't understand).
Judaism - we know the story... they are waiting for the Messiah.. he is here..
Islam - mutually exclusive from Christianity... numerous Qu'ran passages say Jesus is not who he said he is.. one of the pillars of Islam is the validity of the "book" if Christ is who he said he was the entire religion is false. If "Isa the son of Mariam" effects lives today, we know the religion is wrong.
That leaves us with Christianity.. a religion (is it really a religion though?) built around a central figure..... Jesus Christ, a religion that is a joke if the central figure wasn't who he said he was.
C.S. Lewis said it well when he stated he is either "Lord, Liar or Lunatic". Jesus professed to not only be the son of God, he professed to be the I AM.. the God of their fathers.. he didn't profess powers, he displayed them... but he was too humble to announce them.
If Jesus died and didn't rise again the entire religion would be worthless... the Pharisees could have easily taken 1st century Christians to the tomb and shown them... "there he is!" But the religion spread like wildfire. Unlike Islam which spread by the sword (sadly Charlemagne spread a false form of Christianity by the sword later... I realize that), unlike Bhuddism and Hinduism which spread by tradition and the sword (I realize Christianity spreads by tradition nowadays and we must stop it! we must have believers who come of their own free will!), Christianity spreads through self-sacrifice and love. The holy book of Christianity is supported by more than fifteen thousand ancient documents.. Scientists asked for validity... yet they accept other people as being historical based on one sentence on a wall.
There is evidence for Christ... from the spreading of the religion around the empire (which if Christ was a falsehood could have easily been refuted... did all those early Christians knowingly worship a lie?), to the overwhelming documentation... there is evidence. Even the narrative itself in the gospels, its correspondence with the other gospels written from totally different perspectives several years apart... is nothing short of divine. The entire annals of Christianity written in a time frame of over 1600 years... yet the theme is the same? What word is more powerful and more compelling than this on this Earth?
The message is incredible, it promises eternally life.... for a life of slavery? No. It promises eternal life in turn for a life of freedom... a life where others are greater than self.
The concept behind Jesus Christ's teachings are divine... they have no root in our petty human bickerings and squabbles. The goals and ideals are greater than any human thinker can conceive, more just than any system put in place by heathen gov'ts. They are divine.
Kalen.. I could talk for hours on the Case for Christ. I can also tell you how I didn't learn Christ from my religion... my denomination of my childhood. In fact when I threw it out the window I thought I had thrown away Christ.... but then I come to find that tradition was never Christ to begin with. We can't be born into the Church... there comes a point in every believers life where they must turn from their old ways and walk into newness of life. We must have a starting point... many of us start in Christian traditions that allude that we can be born into them... we can't. We must come to Christ apart from those traditions. Its a personal relationship. When I was at the deepest point of despair and called out to Jesus Christ he listened. I heard a knock and I opened the door and nothing has been the same since. Life is not perfect... far from it. The world hasn't changed since our distant ancestor Adam and his wife threw it into sin... but I understand now that our God and his Son and the Counselor are working to bring us back and put the world back in working order.
Read the Case for Christ by Stroebel.. it is a faith building book. I've prayed for you as I write this.. you have the heart of Christ.. you'll soon have the faith of Christ... it comes to all who honestly seek him outside of tradition and coersion.
God Bless You..
1. God creates man.
2. Man sins and is separated from man.
3. God comes to earth becomes man and allows himself to be brutally murdered by his creation so that they may again have a relationship.
Man made religions all have man trying to work himself back into favor with their god and hope that they can do enough to keep from being destroyed. Men don't create stories about God sacraficing himself out of love for his creation.
"In fact when I threw it out the window I thought I had thrown away Christ."
Oh Clifty, thank you so much. When I got to that sentence I burst into tears. I know now that this is what I've been sensing, fearing that if I throw out the bathwater, I throw out baby Jesus as well.
Your prayers are GREATLY appreciated. Keep doing so, please. I know I believe in God. I know I believe in Christ. I don't know HOW I know what I know, but I do. Hearing you reaffirm my fears (and knowing I'm not the first who's experienced this) blesses me immensely, and helps me know that I'm not as lost as I fear I am (a far cry from what I hear other "Christians" telling me).
I have to further walk away from the teachings of man and into the heart of Christ. Please pray for me as I do this very scary, daunting thing -- scary because it's unknown territory for me, and we always fear the unknown.
Thank you again.[/color]
Excellent post, Cliftyman.
It's interesting to me that there are some common threads that run through world religions... almost univerally, there is some concept of a higher power, good/virtue, evil/sin, and sacrifice... even in the most isolated parts of the world. It's almost as if there is a collective memory of the true story of God, creation, the fall of man, righteousness/unrighteousness, sacrifices and worship of Jehovah God... even thought it has been corrupted and has come to be something else in those other religions. But, traces of it still remain.
But, also there are aspects of pagan religion that are condemned in the Bible... and, if you look around, you can see some of these things in other religions even today.
Oh Clifty, thank you so much. When I got to that sentence I burst into tears. I know now that this is what I've been sensing, fearing that if I throw out the bathwater, I throw out baby Jesus as well.
Your prayers are GREATLY appreciated. Keep doing so, please. I know I believe in God. I know I believe in Christ. I don't know HOW I know what I know, but I do. Hearing you reaffirm my fears (and knowing I'm not the first who's experienced this) blesses me immensely, and helps me know that I'm not as lost as I fear I am (a far cry from what I hear other "Christians" telling me).
I have to further walk away from the teachings of man and into the heart of Christ. Please pray for me as I do this very scary, daunting thing -- scary because it's unknown territory for me, and we always fear the unknown.
Thank you again.
Anytime... this is what the Church is for. To use a phrase from pop culture.. "you must unlearn what you have learned". The things taught to us by our parents, our traditions are well intended.. however for some reason our reality is built on
those things instead of the underlying principles behind them.
When you throw out those traditions you are not throwing out Christ... Christ is alive.. if you pray to him at this instant he hears, the Father is real.. if you pray to him at this instant he hears.. the Holy Spirit, our counselor here on Earth is real.. if you pray to him he will hear. You are a child of God, and God doesn't forsake his children. If they are in need they will be attended to.
Matthew 77"Keep on asking, and you will be given what you ask for. Keep on looking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened. 8For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And the door is opened to everyone who knocks. 9You parents--if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11If you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.You're gonna be just fine Kalen... this questioning will pass, Jesus will answer and your faith will be stronger than its ever been in your life. These are the times when great faith in Christ is built.. as long as we are willing to continue to walk along his side. Satan may even be tempting you at this very moment.. testing you
because of your faith. Satan doesn't waste his time on folks who are already lost.. he is an inhumanly intelligent adversary.. when he comes before the Lord he accuses God's children... our God however can see his children's hearts (Satan cannot)... you like Job may be the point of battle between Satan and God right now. Continue in the Lord... be prepared for his answer, it may be scary as it was to Job if at some point you question too much.. because the Lord is an awesome power capable of our entire reality. However the Lord's answer carries great peace and fulfillment because it is closure and truth.[/color]
Not to get off subject, but Kalen I really would love to hear your thoughts on A New Kind of Christian. I started a thread on it under book reviews. Feel free to post there as you're reading it and when you finish.
Not to get off subject, but Kalen I really would love to hear your thoughts on A New Kind of Christian. I started a thread on it under book reviews. Feel free to post there as you're reading it and when you finish.
Hey, alright. I'm not too far into it yet (the first part of the first chapter, after the introduction). When I get further along, I'll track down your thread and share some thoughts -- I've always got SOMETHING to say! lol[/color]
kalen, belonging to Christ is not about belonging to religion. It is what Clifty said...personal relationship. But then I have to ask, what does even that mean to someone?
I wasn't raised in church, but went to different "religions" off and on growing up. God came to me and showed me His love is how I found Him. His presence was very real and His acceptance of me stunned me. I thought I wasnot worth anything. He chose me and that revelation has wowed me ever since. I have known Him for over 35 years and I am amazed at His compassion and love. During some of those years I became religious as I thought that was what I was supposed to do. God had to completely knock the structures built by man to teach me. I came out of religion and "church" to a fantastic relationship, that I never knew could exist. If you seek you will find. Isn't that what scripture says? it just takes belief.
seekr
Kalen,
There are folks on this board much more qualified than I to explain the basics of Christian apologetics to you, so I am not going to attempt that. What I would like to say is that I can tell from your entries in various places on this board that you and I share much common background, one might even say baggage, and yet at the same time incredible blessings, from being "brought up in the church." I have been through the questioning much like what you are doing now and I know how scarey that can be. But, there comes a time when you have to do that to be able to continue on the journey. So, go ahead. You will come out on the other side in a place of deep joy and peace. Blessings to you! :givingkiss:
I would like to recommend the book The Case for Faith by Lee Strobel.
It is excellent and has deepened my faith tremendously.
Also, our small group is doing Battlefield of the Mind right now by Joyce Meyer. I highly recommend it, but as we had found when we started it, satan doesn't want us to know how to arm ourselves against his attacks, which is what I believe our thoughts are when we have so many questions of doubt in this life.
If possible, do it as a group and make sure you get the workbook to go along with it.
It has blessed our whole group so much and have had many deep discussions that have come out of it.
It is like when we are stuck somewere in our walk, it's as if we are in the wilderness, (like Moses) and we start taking on a "wilderness mentality" (as they did then) which is also dealt with in this study. Quite awesome actually.
I highly recommend it to those who have no qualms of stepping out of the box and going with a deep study such as this one.
Watch out though, you will come across some opposition at first. I bet some already are right now. ???
Another suggestion. If doing this book study you feel as if it is not going along as fast as us humans want it to go, let it just ride on Him, because we in our group have just allowed God to be the facilitator of this, that way we get much more out of it, when He leads!
Memmy :D
Kalen,
Its beautiful to see anyone getting away from religion and returning to the feet of Jesus, and truly desiring fellowship with him. After so many wonderful and encouraging posts I have very little to add, but I hope what I do might be a blessing.
The only thing I would recommend is to read the Scriptures, and to turn your heart to God in prayer. These have become the cornerstones of my life, and have never led me astray.
-Charles
Maybe this is a bit over analytical, but I like to look at things from an opposite point of view and see if the alternative really pans out. So lets look at the claim Jesus makes in John 14:6:
I am the way, the truth, the life, no one comes to the Father except by me.
If Jesus is not the way, then everyone and everything else is the way. And each person is his own God. That is a very scary reality that man has no one to answer too except himslef...
my humble 2 cents
Rick
I haven't read that book yet, but my name is on the hold list at the local library. Right now I'm reading "A New Kind of Christian" by Brian McLaren.
I just have so many questions right now and sense I'm headed into a desert in my faith. That's a bit scary (as I'm sure you can imagine). I thought that perhaps, talking it through here might help a little....
Mostly there's the nagging little doubts I keep having. For every "proof" there seems to be something equally oppositional.
And before anyone goes there, I KNOW Christians aren't supposed to talk like this.
:(
Kalen, I think that Christians
are supposed to talk like that. Socrates said that the unexamined life is not worth living. Well, I say that the unexamined faith isn't worth believing. Doubt is a natural part of the process; remember Thomas, who demanded proof of the resurrection? He got it. The Bereans in Acts 17 checked the scriptures to see if what they were being told by the apostles jived with those scriptures. I don't think God expects us to just blindly accept it without thinking about it, asking questions and investigating it first. You wouldn't just accept the used car salesman's word that the car you were buying was in good shape would you? You'd exercise a healthy amount of skepticism and you'd pop the hood, check out the engine, then take it for a test-drive before you actually signed on the dotted-line and bought it, right? And you still might have nagging doubts on the drive home-until you'd had the car long enough to be sure it really was a good car. Same's true with the faith.
Strobel's book is very good (you know he has a TV show called
Faith Under Fire on Pax?). Strobel a former atheist and investigative journalist, has another book called
The Case For Christ, in which he relates his journey from atheism to faith. Strobel says that he was attempting to disprove the claims of Christianity to prove to his wife that it was all a sham, which he assumed would be very easy because Christianity was just a non-intellectual myth. However the more he actually read the intellectual arguments for Christianity, the more he came to believe it really was true after all, with the result that he finally converted. The main section of the book consists of his interviews with several distinguished Christian scholars and theologians, in which he asks them the type questions skeptics and athiests typically ask about Jesus and the resurrection. Its intellectual, but an easy read for all that.
I'd also recommend
Jesus Under Fire: Modern Scholarship Reinvents the Historical Jesus, edited by Michael J. Wilkins and J. P. Moreland. This book consists of essays by Evangelical scholars defending the claims of orthodox Christianity from skeptics and liberals like the Jesus Seminar and Archbishop John S. Spong. It's not light bedside reading, it's not Max Lucado type stuff, but it will give you convincing arguments for the truthfulness of Christianity and help show you how to think for yourself about that faith.
CS Lewis'
Mere Christianity and
God in the Dock are also good. Lewis was another former athiest who finally converted when he could no longer pretend to ignore the overwhelming evidence for Christianity.
It all hangs upon the literal truth of the resurrection; either Jesus Christ was literally raised from the dead, or he wasn't. There's no middle ground, no "spiritualizing" the resurrection into a kind of group hallucination or interior experience of the apostles and early church. Paul himself said if Jesus wasn't raised from the dead Christians are to be pitied for believing a lie.
Obviously it also all hinges upon faith, but as the essayists in
Jesus Under Fire point out, it should be an informed faith. Christianity is not a religion for gullible people-you don't have to check your brains at the door. Doubt is a part of the process; it wouldn't be
real faith to just blindly accept everything we're taught without asking questions. Thomas demanded proof-and was given it. I don't think God expects people to blindly and uncritically accept the faith without wrestling with it.
JUF contains a couple of excellent essays about the nature of faith and how we decide which if any faith to adopt. They present good advice about how to evaluate the truth-claims of Christianity. The author of one essay points out that many people spend much more time investigating a house they're considering buying than they do their religious faith. Would a person buy a house without asking the realtor questions? Without checking out the house first, checking the plumbing, the lighting, looking behind the cabinet doors, making sure the roof's in good shape? Yet many people just blindly accept their faith without asking the hard questions.
So I'd say, don't worry. Doubt is natural. Ultimately it comes down to faith, but anything you can do to inform that faith can help. Books like the ones I just described above have helped me immensely.
Pax vobiscum.[/color]
So tell me this: why should we choose Christianity over any other religion? What's it got that others don't?
No one should choose "Christianity"... They should choose Jesus Christ.
So tell me this: why should we choose Christianity over any other religion? What's it got that others don't?
No one should choose "Christianity"... They should choose Jesus Christ.[/color]
Of course, when a person chooses Jesus Christ, then he, of necessity, also chooses Christianity. And THAT is why a person should "choose Christianity over any other religion." Because no other religion has Jesus Christ! It's a thing of the heart. You fall in love with Jesus and the rest follows. At least that is the way it is for me.[/color]
So tell me this: why should we choose Christianity over any other religion? What's it got that others don't?
No one should choose "Christianity"... They should choose Jesus Christ.
Good point James,
Some people
(not all) seem to make Christianity into a lifestyle decision that is like what choosing what kind of car they drive. Or where they want to live, in the suburbs or the city. What are the benefits opposed to other religions, is there more options on the newer models?
We need to return to the feet of Jesus confess he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Shalom,
-Charles[/color]
Some people (not all) seem to make Christianity into a lifestyle decision that is like what choosing what kind of car they drive.
Interesting way to put it.
We've had quite a few responses over the past couple of years from people outside of our church family, people from the community who have decided to follow Jesus (but I'm getting ahead of myself here). We had a couple more today, and I was thinking this afternoon about why some stay while others disappear. I think what you say here has something to do with it.
It's a serious thing, giving your life to Christ.
Christianity is not a religion for gullible people-you don't have to check your brains at the door. Doubt is a part of the process; it wouldn't be real faith to just blindly accept everything we're taught without asking questions.
Lee, I just really enjoyed this last post, and that quote above is a really good way of looking at our faith in Christ. Actually an awesome way to look at it!
Thanks,
Memmy :D[/color]
Kalen,
I have been having some (I don't want to say doubt...) but I'll say concern of a similar nature...
I hope this isn't too far off the subject, but I have been feeling some anxiety over the issue of grace/forgiveness/etc.
I know that those that lived and died before Christ, were able to obtain favor/forgiveness and (I think) eternal life. So sometimes I wonder why Christ had to come at all....
I know that sounds horrible, but I think part of the reason I feel this confusion is because at my congregation, being obedient and faithful unto death is always a big thing. I think sometimes I feel like we're being expected to live under the law when Christ came because what was impossible for man, needed to be fulfilled by God...
Please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong. I know that I believe, and I just need to work this out.
I know I'll probably get a lot of 'your congregation must be legalistic, etc.' but I'm really not trying to criticize them. I just want to have wisdom and understanding about this.
How 'righteous' do we have to be/stay to be saved? And wasn't that Christ's purpose?
I know that those that lived and died before Christ, were able to obtain favor/forgiveness and (I think) eternal life. So sometimes I wonder why Christ had to come at all....
Marzipan,
Let me just quickly comment on this. (http://www.pdacorps.com/forum/smileys/off_topic.gif)
If Jesus didn't come and die upon the Cross, then all men
(of faith) would be accountable for their own sins. Those before are no different than us today, they were looking forward and we are looking back. Jesus tasted death for every man, not just every man after the Crucifixion. Jesus came to bring redemption through his blood, without that there can be no forgiveness of sins. {Col 1:14}
Those before the new covenant were justified by their faith in God, not by their works. {Romans 4}
Shalom,
-Charles
BTW: Never be ashamed to admit you have doubt, Jesus' strength is made perfect in weakness. And if you never ask the question, you may never find the answer.[/color]
Thanks, I knew I was off topic, maybe I'll look for a similar thread or start one....
BTW, the sermon in your link is really great.
Christianity is not a religion for gullible people-you don't have to check your brains at the door. Doubt is a part of the process; it wouldn't be real faith to just blindly accept everything we're taught without asking questions.
Lee, I just really enjoyed this last post, and that quote above is a really good way of looking at our faith in Christ. Actually an awesome way to look at it!
Thanks,
Memmy :D[/color]
Thanks memmy. In my opinion it isn't REAL faith if I just blindly accept it and don't ask any further questions. I wouldn't pick a doctor that way, or a car, or a house, or insurance, so why should I base my faith-decision on a whim or blind trust or my emotions?
I've been through the whole doubt process before. I've read the arguments for and against the Christian faith, and on a purely rational level the Christian faith makes more sense to me than the other faiths. Obviously I can't just stop with an intellectual assessment that it's true-I then have to
do something with that knowledge, which is where faith kicks in as I accept Christ as Lord of my life.
Pax.
Kalen,
I have been having some (I don't want to say doubt...) but I'll say concern of a similar nature...
I hope this isn't too far off the subject, but I have been feeling some anxiety over the issue of grace/forgiveness/etc.
I know that those that lived and died before Christ, were able to obtain favor/forgiveness and (I think) eternal life. So sometimes I wonder why Christ had to come at all....
I know that sounds horrible, but I think part of the reason I feel this confusion is because at my congregation, being obedient and faithful unto death is always a big thing. I think sometimes I feel like we're being expected to live under the law when Christ came because what was impossible for man, needed to be fulfilled by God...
Please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong. I know that I believe, and I just need to work this out.
I know I'll probably get a lot of 'your congregation must be legalistic, etc.' but I'm really not trying to criticize them. I just want to have wisdom and understanding about this.
How 'righteous' do we have to be/stay to be saved? And wasn't that Christ's purpose?
Kalen, as I said, such thoughts are natural.
I grew up in a very fundamerntalist Church of Christ which preached a gospel of law, or a hybrid of salvation through grace+works. The cross and resurrection were not preached much; we spent all our time worrying about having the correct doctrine, and making sure everyone else did, too. The cross became just one doctrine among many doctrines.
No one can obey their way to heaven; Paul made it clear in Romans that only one man's obedience was ever perfect-Christ.
At about 21 I began re-evaluating a lot of what I had been programmed to believe; much of it I jettisoned, much of it I kept. The following verse was VERY helpful after I discovered it:
For there is now therefore no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)
Pax.[/color]
For there is now therefore no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)
Lee,
Interesting you should quote this verse....It is the exact same verse that in my college years "awakened" me. No one in my cofC had ever taught this verse while I was growing up. What an incredible breath of fresh air...the air of the Holy Spirit.
Don
Those before are no different than us today, they were looking forward and we are looking back. Jesus tasted death for every man, not just every man after the Crucifixion. Jesus came to bring redemption through his blood, without that there can be no forgiveness of sins. {Col 1:14}
:amen:
For there is now therefore no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)
Lee,
Interesting you should quote this verse....It is the exact same verse that in my college years "awakened" me. No one in my cofC had ever taught this verse while I was growing up. What an incredible breath of fresh air...the air of the Holy Spirit.
Don[/color]
When I first discovered that verse I had no idea it was even in the Bible I'm ashamed to say. Since then, I've discovered a lot of teaching in scripture I didn't know was there.
Pax.
For there is now therefore no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)
Lee,
Interesting you should quote this verse....It is the exact same verse that in my college years "awakened" me. No one in my cofC had ever taught this verse while I was growing up. What an incredible breath of fresh air...the air of the Holy Spirit.
Don
When I first discovered that verse I had no idea it was even in the Bible I'm ashamed to say. Since then, I've discovered a lot of teaching in scripture I didn't know was there.
Pax.[/color]
I guess this illustrates the principle, "it depends on the cofC". I always heard that verse, and it was a familiar one. But, it may mean that I was raised in a more "grace-centered" circle. I remember studying Romans a lot in Bible classes/youth devotionals during my teenage years. Of course, that was only 10-15 years ago...
The church I grew up in probably stayed away from that verse for fear it might be made to teach "once saved, always saved." I was about 23 or 24 when I first encountered that verse.
Pax.
You had never heard the song? ???
You had never heard the song? ???
Now that you mention it, yes.
There is a devo song with those words... I haven't heard it sung anywhere in years though.[/color]
Well, devo songs with actual tunes are out now, I understand. The coming of Powerpoint has rendered them obsolete.
Well, devo songs with actual tunes are out now, I understand. The coming of Powerpoint has rendered them obsolete.
Yeah.... I miss my WRITTEN MUSIC!!! :cry: