Christian Forums

I've been reading this thread ever since my wife showed it to me, for obvious reasons.  I can see that she has kept a lot of thing out, for obvious reasons.  But I guess I feel like I have to allow myself to be drug into it, for obvious reasons.  These things are anonymous, so there are a lot of things that need to be kept out just in case somebody we know ever stumbles onto it.  Incidentally, privacy is one of the reasons you don't balk at paying those counselors $100/Hour.  Who loves money, as opposed to who understands the needs and uses for money?  I guess that would be a good post to start a thread on stewardship.

"Money is like manna in the wilderness...."  Don't I wish!!!  Have faith, or course.  But stewardship is the bridge between reality of this World and Faith in God.  Faith that God will provide, according to his Will.  Stewardship, to show that you truly are thankful for your Daily Bread.

Yes, good people do end up on the street.  Sometimes through no fault of there own, like Job's run of bad luck.  But more often through poor choices.  Poor Stewardship.  There are many books written on this subject, and like books on marriage they are for the most part "in the middle".  Some lean towards "give and ye shall receive" to the point of absolute faith in the reciprocity of generosity, and others are more conservative/cautious/self-reliant.

I can't put it in one sentence, but to me Stewardship is caring for my family's Worldly needs today and into the future.  I place peace of mind above comfort and "appearance".

Do you place peace of mind above maintaining your wife's respect? What about your wife's peace of mind? There is nothing wrong with good stewardship, but there is nothing wrong with having an updated home and belongings - comfort and appearance. Where indoor plumbing was once a "comfort and appearance" luxury, now it is commonplace, and now we consider it a need. Same with pretty much every modern convenience. Thirty-five years ago, it was a luxury to have a phone without a party line. Twenty-five years ago, only a few select people had cell phones and now they are a necessity for every member of the family and party lines are as outdated as the ark.

When my best friend and her husband first married, they lived in his parent's basement for years so they could "save money". They owned their own home, but he refused to move them into it so they could save money (they rented it out). She was terribly unhappy and had very little respect for him because of it. I asked her why she tolerated it and she said she was "following her husband's lead." Over the years, she has come to see that leadership is not dictatorship, and that good leadership is more than just "meeting needs" as HE perceived her needs. She is still unhappy in their marriage 25 years later.

You can be financially responsible and still meet your wife's needs. This particular issue is obviously causing a lot of strife in the marriage. What is more important to you - saving money or marital peace? Is it worth it to have hundreds of thousands saved in bonds when your wife is becoming resentful? Does it matter to you that she respects you? She mentioned the style of the home being 1980's. Thirty years ago. Isn't part of good stewardship updating your home for when it is time to consider resale value? Is there some way you can come to a middle ground on this? What if your wife gets a job and uses the money to buy herself nice things (if you provide her needs, maybe she can provide her own wants)? No matter what, this is an issue for your wife.

Since you appear to have a marriage based on husband "leadership" and wife "submission", isn't it part of the leadership responsibility to resolve conflict in a way that will not cause resentment? Your wife wants more of a say after "submitting" all these years. Is she really asking too much?

Quote
I can't put it in one sentence, but to me Stewardship is caring for my family's Worldly needs today and into the future.  I place peace of mind above comfort and "appearance".

Yes, very wise to place 'peace' above 'comfort and appearance'...that is, to a great extent, I would say.

And I realize your wife may have an inordinate desire to enjoy "comfort and appearance", which even if you tried to meet her half way, she may not be content even then, but would want more and more (note to wondering: read all the way through, all that I say). After all, that is human nature; and it is what an individual is prone to do, who has not yet experienced what 'crucified to self' means and entails.

Where then would that leave you and your 'peace' of mind, knowing that after giving up a substantial degree of peace of mind (in saving for the time to come: for retirement; for the bills; for the health issues that come with age in many cases; for the realization of the world economies inevitable collapse, etc., etc.), you still may find yourself unable to satisfy a wife that is grievously unwilling to be satisfied with just a little more...and a little more...and now just a little more.

It may be 'outdated', but the following is nevertheless still true today as is has always been:
"Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." [Heb_13:5]
 
"Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content." [Phil.4:11]

"And having food and raiment let us be therewith content." [1Tim.6:8]
 
Reading beforehand, Paul states this:
"...But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content."


   "Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die:
   "Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
   "Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain." [Pro.30:7-9, see also 5-6]

See what is stated beforehand:
"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."


And here let Peter speak to these things:
   "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
   "While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
"Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
   "But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
   "For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
   "Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement." [1 Pet.3:1-6]


To women, these things were given to focus upon. To develop their spiritual lives in accordance to.

Why speak about adorning?

Because, is it not in their nature to attract others through the windows of the eyes? Yes, but they not only seek to attract others to themselves on a personal physical level; but they desire to do so, by extension; by means of doing what they can to frame themselves in an 'attractive way' outwardly. That is, they desire to be attractive in the eyes of others by means of presentation of their other visible belongings: house; property; car...a swimming pool perhaps (etc.).

So the Lord, through the apostle Peter, seeks to redirect these tendencies that can be blindly pursued in a carnal fashion; and make an application by way of illustration, to pursue godliness with contentment, using the terminology of adorning.


If a woman is not seeking these heavenly minded things and attributes; I doubt that she'll be content if you do meet her 'half way'. She will want more. So be forewarned and prepared.

Still, a man; if he has the means to lighten the load for his wife in her daily duties, by way of providing some 'tools' of her 'trade' to make her work more efficient and less cumbersome in the home; and even provide her with some finer things along lives road together, towards the golden years: it would not be a failure in his call to stewardship to do so. It of course would entirely depend upon his means, his goals for the future and whether or not he is sensible enough to discern when he can 'afford' to make an expenditure that is not necessarily necessary, but nevertheless, not going to sabotage his prudent plans for the times to come.   

Sit down by yourself and see what if any funds you currently have can be safely re-allocated to fit the requests of your wife. If her demands are to great and she is unwilling to accept with graciousness and thankfulness what you are willing to re-allocate for things in the here and now. Then you are at an impasse it would appear. If she is reluctantly 'willing' to accept less than she is asking for; that presents another problem.


In the end though, both you and your wife are commanded individually to do what is right, just, good, honorable and wise towards, and for one another...not only for your sake, but also for the sake of your children and so on...and for the name of Christ. You can only be honest for yourself and to yourself. If you are being at all covetous (miserly and selfishly cheap), while trying to hide behind a spiritual sounding claim to be faithfully executing your stewardship responsibilities before God - beware. You'll not only suffer the consequences of such folly here and now; but worse by far, when you (we all) stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ.

So be extremely sure and clear about what true motives lay at the root of the words that your lips speak.

If you find even a small degree of your motives are rooted in either covetousness or perhaps fear (rather than true faith); or perhaps resentments and pride; or a combination of all of these: turn to the Lord in honest, simple contrition and prayer and tell him what you found in yourself. Thank him for blessing you with the gift of repentance and then make the most of it! Clear yourself in a zealous way of it to him, then to your wife and others.

Let grace reign and allow God to remake those areas in you that will please him and grant to you true peace and joy - not the soul numbing, poor and phony substitute for some try to convince themselves is the 'peace' of God.   


If your wife is unwilling to honor ("reverence") and obey you in spite of your 'cheapness' or 'covetous' behavior (if you are so, to any degree), and is determined to resent you and grow to hate you (that is the road that resentment will lead to): then, as much as someone else said that this is your doing, they are in error - it is not your doing (read on).

We all are responsible to and before God NOT to become offended at/by the actions of others. While Christ warned about offending others (specifically "these little ones" children - Mat.18:6); he also warned by way of his parable of the sower, that we are responsible not to allow the heat of persecution, tribulations, trials, afflictions and so on to cause us to become offended - enough or remain so, that we turn away from the way of God's truth (plenty of professing believers are walking in this darkness they have chosen to remain in).

   "Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
   "He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful." [Mat.13:21-22, ...23...]

But that does not mean you will be held guiltless; nor she for her failure to draw close to the Lord and find contentment in first Him; and in as well all the good things you ARE and HAVE been providing all these years. If she is still resentful or 'unhappy' because it may be that she can't expect to get what she wants from you in all the things she spoke about in her posts; that is an issue that is strictly between her and the Lord - not even between you and her. You have your part whatever it may actually be...I don't know; none of us here know for certainty.

Do the wise thing here and be certain that your motives are not less than honorable to God, yourself and to your family. If they are right, you'll have to let others believe what they will - including your wife. But again, find out if anything you CAN do to bless your wife and carve out if you can, a sum of monies to do what you can to assure any reasonable woman you have their best interests at heart, for the long haul but also in the mean time as well.

Cannot take time to edit, so hope understandable and I communicated what I attempted to here.

Bless you both.

p.progress

I haven't read the last posts, I was typing this in Word.

Even though this ended up being pretty long, I can't go into everything.  We've been married for almost 20 years and there have been a lot of things from both sides, both right and wrong.  From both me and her.  But I felt our marriage was very strong until about half way through.  Our circumstances, like many others, are different.  Somewhat out of the box, we were both strong willed individuals in our late 20's.  I can't and won't argue with anything she has written.  I will say that everything said up to now is accurate.

What she hasn't told you is that when we met, I was a Christian and my beliefs were pretty much what they are now.  Of course I have grown in many respects, but that is more attributable to life than myself.  Having a good Christian base prepares you for lifes challenges, both successes and failures.  I have "grown" to understand or possibly just believe that my single greatest challenge in life is discernment.
She was spititual, but I don't believe Christian.  She was baptised in a Baptist Church, never went to Sunday School or Church, and was Baptised again in college.  But her family is not religious and she didn't start going to Church until she married me and had children.  Now she spends a lot of time reading the Bible, and is involved in Church.  Admittedly more than me.  I respect the direction she has moved, and am in no position to judge.  Having said that, I would say that when we met she was definetely a "seeker" and more than likely a femenist.  She has changed a lot, but has always had a hard time with my view of being a Christian.

I need to add a few historical relationship facts to this dialogue:

1)  When we were first married, during one of our first disagreements she spouted out "Your not my father, you can't tell me what to do."  I still don't understand that one.

2)  Within the first year she would get so angry that the only way I could calm her down was to kneel down on the floor, place my forehead on her feet, and beg her to not be angry.  I did this for over 10 years in our marriage.  I felt no shame in doing this, she was my wife.  She was a Blessing and I Loved her.

2.5)  I also have to say that she is an extremely nice person who everyone likes.  I don't really like being around people, but she thrives on it.  She works in sales, and is great at her job.  But I am the only one who ever sees this side of her.

3)  During our first year of marriage, during one of her tantrums I said we needed to go to counselling.  She immediately became more infuriated, after which she calmed down and we had fewer conflicts.  In retrospect, I think she quit arguing because if we ever went to counselling we/she would be losers.  She comes from a competitive family of "winners".

4)  Over the years we had our struggles, mostly because of the things I chose to do for a living.  But my values and goals were the same as when she met me.  "I Love you because your true to yourself." slowly became "We can do better than this."

5)  After about 8 years of marriage, during her tantrums she started saying "You never should have married me........"  Don't get me wrong, most of the time she is really nice.  That's part of why I married her, but when she flys off the handle it is almost like she is possessed.  I'm serious, like in the movies.  I'm not exagerating, really.  Anyway, after about 5 years of being told I never should have married her 2-4 times a year I said, "Are you crazy, who says that to their spouse.  What are you going to do if you ever convince me?"

5.5)  When she started studying the Bible along with many other complaints about it she would say, "It makes me so mad, the Bible is so chauvanistic."  I just raised my eyebrows and said "Yeh, I know it doesn't seem fair, but that's what it says."  I also said, "It's a good thing its not fair, or none of us would ever be going to heaven."

6)  A couple of years later she was really disgruntled and difficult and she said,  "This relationship will not withstand .....".  I told her, "I am never going to divorce you, because your the best woman I've ever met.  But that doesn't make you perfect!"  She couldn't say anything back, but it seemed to upset her even more.

7)  I believe a turning point in our marriage was an accident that almost killed me.  It was her responsibility to do something that was "inconvenient".  It was possible to get the job done without what she was supposed to do, so I tried because I didn't want to argue about it.  I almost died.  As I lay there recupperating I said, "I will never bow to you again."  I never have, and I never will.

8)  Several years later she started to turn me away physically to have more influence.  She denied me what was mine while becoming more verbally abusive.  It affected me in ways that I don't want to talk about, I told her that she had "psychologically castrated" me.  I thought I came up with that on my own, but later I read some things on the internet.  Google "submission", it gets crazy.  Basically there are some very crazy women out there that have "discovered" how to make their men submissive.  (Lively Stone?)  I won't accuse her of going that far, but to intuitively know how to "take the man out of your man" makes me wonder just how close she is walking with the Lord.

9)  The "mistake" that she claims I pushed her into was nothing more than giving up the reins.  She got what she wanted, and will regret it for the rest of her life.  As will I and our children.  She is unappreciative, short sighted, disrespectful, and abusive.  She won't deny it in counselling, but won't apply it in life. 

10)  She now has the power she wants, but won't take the responsibility.  I have told her that she can buy any house she wants, I'll sign anything she wants.  She looks at houses, but won't go to the bank.  She wants me to do it so that I will bear part of the responsibility.  I will not stop her, but I also won't pretend I believe it is a good choice.  I've told her to find this dream house, talk to the bank, cut the deal, and sign the papers.  I'll sign as well.  But when things don't go just right and we're having trouble with the payments, don't come crying to me.  Get a raise or get another job, and by the way I'm sorry your never home to enjoy the kids or your new house.

Summary
She has harrassed and emasculated (Google that one too) her husband to the point where he really doesn't even want her anymore.  Our lives are a mess with no direction, and our kids are wondering what is going to happen next.  We have moved 3 times in 3 years after being in one place for almost 10.  (Her mistake.)

In the past she has berated me for dominating her, and then berated me for being too meek around others.  I said it's humility, and she said everyone percieves it as weakness.  But when I do speak up and state my opinions she berates me for dominating others, simply because my position may not be popular but I am unwilling to change. 

For me, it really isn't about the money anymore.  I told her a couple of years ago "You've played all your cards, you have nothing left."  She says she wants us to be a family, and I believe she does.  If we could set the clock back, I believe we would both do things differently.  What, I'm not sure.

The last time we spoke on the phone she blew up at me again.  I've already told her "I can't make you happy."  For two days after being chewed out again my right hand had no stregth, I couldn't even hold a spoon with it.  It is a strange sort of weakness that is a result of the way she has denied me physically while verbally abusing me.  I told her about 6 months ago, "I'm not leaving you, your running me off."

For me it isn't about forgiveness.  I know this sounds wimpy, but I feel abused.  The Christian counselor we went to told her that she needed to accept responsibility for the emotional damage she has done to me, and to truly repent for it before we can heal our relationship.  She still feels justified in her behavior towards me.

It's also crazy that she admits that all the things she respects me for are the reasons she hates me.  (Yes, she says she hates me, and then says she doesn't, and then apologizes, and then says she Loves me, and then.......)  I've told her I'm tired of "sorry".  Sorry isn't working anymore.

I feel like this is a bit rambling, but how do you pack in a lifetime.  I am a STRONG advocate of a complimentary marriage that skirts the line of egalitarian.  But from my observations and experience in life, on average men seem to be able to make better long-term decisions.  They also tend to factor in more variables, with less emotion.  Oh, and it actually is in the Bible.  You don't have to twist or reinterpret anything to come to that conclusion.

One time we were "talking" and she said "I want my children to grow up to be Christians.  What do you want for them!"  My answer was "I want them to grow up to be Christians who are good wives and husbands, and good mothers and fathers."  She went ballistic.  By then I was no longer bowing down to her feet.  Sometimes I wish I had, but more and more I think I never should have in the first place.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 16:10:36

Basically there are some very crazy women out there that have "discovered" how to make their men submissive.  (Lively Stone?)  I won't accuse her of going that far, but to intuitively know how to "take the man out of your man" makes me wonder just how close she is walking with the Lord.

Well, as you have so well stated:

QuoteI have "grown" to understand or possibly just believe that my single greatest challenge in life is discernment.

I will chalk that insult up to poor discernment. I read what you said to my husband, and he simply said, "That's his opinion, and the way the world looks at things." Thank God we live according to how God looks at things.


My marriage is rewarding for both husband and wife, thank you very much.

I have a hard time saying I'm sorry Lively Stone, but I will admit that I stepped over a line.  You and your husband have been married a long time.  If you are both happy, congratulations.  I mean that sincerely.

In my own defense, on this forum you have been the most vocal advocate supporting my wife in the path she has chosen.  Obviously that doesn't set well.  You mentioned that your husband usually defers to you, which is his right.  If it works for you (and him), great.

For me in my marriage, the expectations and attitudes you perpetuate have lead to the slow and painful destruction of our relationship and our family.  If I had not finally yielded, our lives would be better.  Even my wife admits that now.  But she is still neither willing to show remorse for the way she has treated me nor willingly follow my lead.

The issue of submission is behind us, and can't be addressed until she can convincingly admit that she has been wrong in the way she has treated me.  That would only be a beginning.  It is not forgiveness that is needed, she would somehow have to restore my trust and faith in her.  It has gone so far, I don't know if it is possible.  After that, we would have to revisit submission.  I've never looked at it as being served, I always viewed it more as my responsibility to create the best overall circumstances I could for my family.  When everything is taken into account, there is a lot more to the equation than the house and the car.

Until she has remorse for the way she has treated me, I don't even have a plan to deal with our problems, or our future.  I'm just whipped.

Also, I'm in HUGE trouble again.  My wife is "done" with this forum.  When she read my post she hit the roof, again.  She thought I was out of line to bring these things up with the counselors, you can imagine what she thinks of putting them on a forum.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 21:15:54
Also, I'm in HUGE trouble again.  My wife is "done" with this forum.  When she read my post she hit the roof, again.  She thought I was out of line to bring these things up with the counselors, you can imagine what she thinks of putting them on a forum.

I can say that I would have been deeply deeply wounded by your post. 

My opinion is that you have crossed the line by coming here in the first place. However, I will pray for the two of you.

It sounds to me like you both have been verbally beaten up by the other, both have kept a record of wrongs, have both been disrespectful and unloving, and most of all, it sounds like there is animosity and resentment on both sides. Maybe even contempt. I think the marriage problems go far beyond the scope of these forums, and you should both seek a qualified counselor - one you both agree on. Call around and ask about their marriage philosophy (egalitarian vs patriarchal). Choose one together. Even if this is your only common goal for now, it is the starting point for discovering commonalities (this is important for marriage).

I think that is only the beginning. Find a Christian marriage coach. A marriage coach is like a life coach - they do not focus on why you are where you are (a counselor is more likely to do that); they help you as a couple to define your common goals, and then help you to work toward those goals.

As I was writing my post, there were other replies, including this:

QuoteUntil she has remorse for the way she has treated me, I don't even have a plan to deal with our problems, or our future.  I'm just whipped.

There are a lot of issues here. First, you should admit you are powerless in this, as that will help you come to the end of yourself and rely on God's plan for helping deal with your problems. Second, you expect her to have remorse for the way she treated you, but you are not examining your own stuff and saying maybe you need to have remorse for some of your own attitudes (like where you say "I will never bow to you again."  I never have, and I never will.") I'm not saying you need to bow to her, but serving her in sacrificial love might go a long way.

My response is based on the assumption that you both have a reasonable level of self awareness and that you both have positive regard (goodwill) for each other. I also assume you are both reasonable, responsible, and mature people who have the humility to own up to your own part in stuff without becoming defensive against the other. Seriously, I don't see the marriage surviving without counseling. You are barely hanging in there now....

I think you both need a whole lot of healing, and would recommend a program like Freedom Session or another 12-step program that is faith-based. Twelve step programs are not just about addictions or co-dependency. They can help the healing process for anything you turn to for coping (for example, my default coping mechanism was withdrawal. I went through the program and it drastically changed my tendency to withdraw. I now turn towards my husband and we have an amazing, intimate relationship). It will also help you to address your primary character defects.

In the meantime, it might help to realize that each of you behaves much out of your own hurt. You have each hurt the other, and each need to own up to it. This is why a 12-step program is helpful - it helps you take inventory of how others have hurt you, and how you have hurt others, and the patterns and themes that emerge from these inventories. A program will also help you learn how to make amends. This is much more than just apologizing. It involves deep sorrow for having hurt the other person, the admission of guilt without any "but" (which is nothing more than assigning blame or rationalizing your inappropriate behaviour), acknowledgement of how it has hurt the other person, and willingness to pay the consequences.

Forgiveness is key, too. It sounds like you both have been keeping a record of wrongs - all the way back to the first year of your marriage! That's a long time to hold something against someone you love. When you keep a record of wrongs and bring them up through the years, you have not forgiven, and forgiveness is not dependent on attempts to make amends or even say "sorry."

You each need to focus on your own behaviour rather than justify it by saying "but s/he did this...." She needs to stop emasculating you and you need to stop treating her like a child or as "less than" (as evidenced by her comment in your point 1 and your use of the word "tantrums". etc).

Maybe you also both need to rediscover commitment - commitment is made up of caring and consistency. If you care about each other, you will be consistent in caring behaviour towards each other. This caring and consistency will be perceived as significance and security, and that will perpetuate the caring and consistency.

Mercy is about doing the right thing whether you feel the other deserves it or not. In fact, God loved us while we were yet sinners. One of you - likely the husband - needs to initiate doing the right thing not because the other deserves it, but because God says love is always right. Do it out of obedience and love for God, if you can't do it out of love for the other. Have mercy on each other, be gracious towards each other, and seek healing for your selves and your marriage.

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 21:20:22

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 21:15:54
Also, I'm in HUGE trouble again.  My wife is "done" with this forum.  When she read my post she hit the roof, again.  She thought I was out of line to bring these things up with the counselors, you can imagine what she thinks of putting them on a forum.

I can say that I would have been deeply deeply wounded by your post. 

It is odd that you would defend her feelings about me, for posting so many things that were unbelievably inconsiderate of mine?

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 21:27:14
My opinion is that you have crossed the line by coming here in the first place. However, I will pray for the two of you.

I didn't want to come here, to get advice from anonymous strangers.  My discernment lead me to go to paid counselors who charge $100/hour.  But my wife, in her wisdom, didn't want to "waste" the money.

I really do appreciate the input, but it would be nice to hear from somebody other than you Lively Stone.  I get the feeling your forum activity is probably an accurate reflection of your home life.  I will pray for you as well.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 21:56:52

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 21:20:22

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 21:15:54
Also, I'm in HUGE trouble again.  My wife is "done" with this forum.  When she read my post she hit the roof, again.  She thought I was out of line to bring these things up with the counselors, you can imagine what she thinks of putting them on a forum.

I can say that I would have been deeply deeply wounded by your post. 

It is odd that you would defend her feelings about me, for posting so many things that were unbelievably inconsiderate of mine?

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 21:27:14
My opinion is that you have crossed the line by coming here in the first place. However, I will pray for the two of you.

I didn't want to come here, to get advice from anonymous strangers.  My discernment lead me to go to paid counselors who charge $100/hour.  But my wife, in her wisdom, didn't want to "waste" the money.

I really do appreciate the input, but it would be nice to hear from somebody other than you Lively Stone.  I get the feeling your forum activity is probably an accurate reflection of your home life.  I will pray for you as well.

My participation in this thread has been extremely minimal, so your appreciation of the facts is lacking. My home life is great, even though I am afforded a lot of free time these days, due to health concerns, and my husband is extremely selfless in his care for me, and I and the Lord Jesus bless him for it.

Janice, I haven't been keeping track so much as remembering, trying to figure it out.  I can't argue with your advice, I'm the one who wanted to go to a counselor.  (Not really WANTING, so much as seeing a need.)

The advice you and p.progress offer seems to be the most reasonable, but I think it's far too complicated to solve on the internet.

Having said that, I'm open to listen to othe people's impressions.

Thanks.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 21:56:52

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 21:20:22

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 21:15:54
Also, I'm in HUGE trouble again.  My wife is "done" with this forum.  When she read my post she hit the roof, again.  She thought I was out of line to bring these things up with the counselors, you can imagine what she thinks of putting them on a forum.

I can say that I would have been deeply deeply wounded by your post. 

It is odd that you would defend her feelings about me, for posting so many things that were unbelievably inconsiderate of mine?

I defended nothing. Just pointing out that she isn't some sort of shrew for being hurt by you.   Your need to come and make sure the score was even steven here speaks volumes...

I agree with Janice.  COUNSELING is a must! Even if you go alone! GO!

I'm sorry to hear about you're health, I'm glad your husband is there for you.

My post had nothing to do with making any "score" "even".  Maybe I should've just stayed out of it, but she showed it to me because of all of the posts "in her favor".

It wasn't to even any score, it was to show a little more of the picture.  Maybe some of the people reading it think differently now that they have a few more details.  Absolutely, we need that counselor.

The clever art of telling a lie, by withholding part of the truth.  He said she said.  There are two sides to every story, and the truth is usually in the middle.  Etc. etc. etc.

What I CANNOT believe is that not one single person has said anything about my wife telling me the "You never should have married me....." for more or less a decade.

That is SO disrespectful.  SO out of line.  I once said to her, "If I had ever even once said the kinds of things to you, that you have been saying to me from the very beginning, you would have left me a long time ago."  She didn't argue.

I can't believe that even liberal women wouldn't comment against a wife saying such a thing to her husband.  I mean EVER saying it to him.  When I think about the brevity of those words, it flabergasts me.

I have to ask myself what the response would be if a woman posted that her husband had said "You never should have married me...."?

I don't think that is something anyone should ever say to their spouse!

To me, a woman saying that is crying out for reassurance...not unlike the woman who tries on new clothes that look great on her and says to all who will listen, "I look awful, today," really expecting people to clamor after her saying, "Oh no, you look fabulous!" it is false humility, isn't it? Yet, there is a deep need in her for assurance.

I should think that there is a deep-seated need that has crept in that has caused your wife to lack the assurance that you cherish her, and what she brings to you, that you value her for what she thinks and offers you n terms of godly wisdom. If you deny her the satisfaction of hearing her or taking her opinions on board, you hew away at her self-esteem.

I would venture to say that her claim that you should never have married her would dissolve the moment you reach your arms around her and speak words of affirmation and love to her---at the cost of your composure. Softness goes a long way.

Just my opinion.

Grreetigs, JustWonderingsHusband [JWH]!

Question: Did you see and read the personal message I sent to you? If not, please do read it and feel free to respond. I just reread it; and though it is somewhat disjointed (I wrote fast and did not proofread very much - sorry if somewhat incoherent), I hope it is both edifying and informative in various ways. I am going to write you another message - but quick one, in a moment. I hope you can find it in your message box.

Just click on 'Messages' near the top of the page: 

"Home  Help  Search  Profile  My Messages  Calendar  Member  Map  Media  Members  Logout"

As for your comments in all the posts above (page 6), and in the one at the end of page 5; I've read and have seen nothing truly offensive in them. You have a right to be here, to express yourself and you have done so. Which has also acted to provide another point of view and frame of reference. If those who claim to be offended are 'offended' by you; I have a passage for them... a few of them here. They can either receive these as I mean them to be taken; or else continue to be ensnared in the spirit that controls those who are so easily as they say 'offended'. Better to lance one's heart of such weaknesses and exercise strength in the Lord. But people will do and think as they choose:

"Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them."

"Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."

"Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. " - Lev 19:15

  "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment" - Exo 23:2

  "Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour." - Lev 19:15

  "Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's:" - Deu 1:17

  "Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen." - Deu 27:19

   "Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you..."

    "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
     "If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
     "And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
     "Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
     "And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
     "And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."  [Deut. 19:15-21]

Late.

p.p.

JustWonderingshusband,

Hi. I tried to send you a message, it says it is full. Are you open to receive messages? If so, find out why it says its full and see if you can clear it.

p.progress

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 22:40:00
What I CANNOT believe is that not one single person has said anything about my wife telling me the "You never should have married me....." for more or less a decade.

That is SO disrespectful.  SO out of line.  I once said to her, "If I had ever even once said the kinds of things to you, that you have been saying to me from the very beginning, you would have left me a long time ago."  She didn't argue.

I can't believe that even liberal women wouldn't comment against a wife saying such a thing to her husband.  I mean EVER saying it to him.  When I think about the brevity of those words, it flabergasts me.

I have to ask myself what the response would be if a woman posted that her husband had said "You never should have married me...."?

I don't think that is something anyone should ever say to their spouse!

Although I did not use the quote feature, it is this part that I responded to when I was talking about commitment:

QuoteMaybe you also both need to rediscover commitment - commitment is made up of caring and consistency. If you care about each other, you will be consistent in caring behaviour towards each other. This caring and consistency will be perceived as significance and security, and that will perpetuate the caring and consistency.

If she said this regularly, she is likely feeling very insecure, and that may be traced to lack of caring and/or consistency. By then 8 years had gone by, and by your own admittance, they were years when she felt like you were dominating her.

As you said, though, your issues are likely better dealt with by a counselor, and these are the sorts of things a good counselor will address. They will likely listen for themes, then deal with the themes, as opposed to psychoanalyzing the various comments she might have made over the years. I have mentioned the themes I could see just from the posts you both made. There are a number of them. Your issues are numerous and would be better resolved with a counselor. I hope your wife is not too proud to admit the marriage needs that kind of help.

Quote from: p.progress on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 00:32:06
JustWonderingshusband,

Hi. I tried to send you a message, it says it is full. Are you open to receive messages? If so, find out why it says its full and see if you can clear it.

p.progress

As a newcomer, he needs a certain post count to receive private messages---maybe as low as 10.

Quote from: Janice on Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 23:41:36

But often, men (and sometimes women, as we see from the ministry who does these videos) take the submission thing as meaning they have "authority over" or "leadership over" their wives.

It does. Just as Jesus has authority over us. "He is the image of God, but woman is the glory of man." When God incarnated, he incarnated as male, not female--not a coin toss. "If you have seen me you have seen the Father," said Jesus. The image of God is male, not female. On the other hand the entire church is the bride of Christ which is very much submissive (the female to God's male) to God and does acknowledge him as authority. Male-to-female is authority-to-submission.

"Man was not made for woman, but woman for man." Egalitarian viewpoints will never acknowledge this fact. A man is supposed to lead and the woman is supposed to concern herself with how to support that lead.

And as the husband on this thread has pointed out, many are emphasizing a self-sacrifice of a husband in such a way as for a wife to seize control of her husband all over again.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 23:03:46
To me, a woman saying that is crying out for reassurance...not unlike the woman who tries on new clothes that look great on her and says to all who will listen, "I look awful, today," really expecting people to clamor after her saying, "Oh no, you look fabulous!" it is false humility, isn't it? Yet, there is a deep need in her for assurance.

I should think that there is a deep-seated need that has crept in that has caused your wife to lack the assurance that you cherish her, and what she brings to you, that you value her for what she thinks and offers you n terms of godly wisdom. If you deny her the satisfaction of hearing her or taking her opinions on board, you hew away at her self-esteem.

I would venture to say that her claim that you should never have married her would dissolve the moment you reach your arms around her and speak words of affirmation and love to her---at the cost of your composure. Softness goes a long way.

Just my opinion.

This is spot on. Women NEED reassurance, and lots of it. She was hoping that you would give that when she said what she did.
Please note that she said 'you should never have married me'(needing reassurance), and not 'I should never have married you',(very disrespectful).

I agree that you guys need some good CHRISTIAN marriage counselling.

Submission is not something that should ever be demanded, but something that needs to be earned.

MY marriage is very good. My husband, who I respect very highly, doesn't demand anything. He is the most patient, easy going, positive and laid back man ever. He gets my respect because of the way he treats me with love and mutual respect and because of the sort of man he is(he has masses of integrity). On the VERY rare occasions that we disagree on anything important, I would defer to him, but in other things he defers to me if he feels this is right. He is very secure in Himself, and has no problems with doing that if the occasion warrants it.

Demanding obedience never works. Treating her with love respect and kindness is far more effective.A wife who respects and trusts her husband has no problems with allowing him to be the head in a partnership of mutual love and respect. This does not mean that she is to be trampled on or that you are the only one who has it right. You need to listen to her, and respect her feelings and what she says and thinks. 

You need to work on YOUR failings, and allow HER to work on HERS. AT the moment you are BOTH so busy pointing out where the OTHER has gone wrong and you can see where YOU have gone wrong.Until you can both let go of the past and each recognise your own failings, nothing will get sorted. You are also in a pit of unforgiveness, and that is poisonous for a marriage. 

Compromise is a good way to go. If you disagree, then why not find a balance , ie somewhere in the middle that you can both live with rather than demanding that SHE does what YOU want. You are not her jailer but her husband. 

I think p. progress and PFC Hall said good things on this thread. I'm especially impressed that p. progress demonstrated the nerve to talk about 1 Peter 3; I mean, really, wives of unbelieving husbands are told to minister to their husbands through submissive behavior even when they're harsh ("In the same way") and yet this Christian woman is complaining about her Christian husband not granting non-essential things, even as there are debts?

In my opinion she has no idea how to fulfill her duty as a wife, not interested in being responsive to how he's leading the household. I hope the husband does not allow himself to be "whipped" no matter what.

Quote from: Cally on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 02:35:20

Quote from: Janice on Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 23:41:36

But often, men (and sometimes women, as we see from the ministry who does these videos) take the submission thing as meaning they have "authority over" or "leadership over" their wives.

It does. Just as Jesus has authority over us. "He is the image of God, but woman is the glory of man." When God incarnated, he incarnated as male, not female--not a coin toss. "If you have seen me you have seen the Father," said Jesus. The image of God is male, not female. On the other hand the entire church is the bride of Christ which is very much submissive (the female to God's male) to God and does acknowledge him as authority. Male-to-female is authority-to-submission.

"Man was not made for woman, but woman for man." Egalitarian viewpoints will never acknowledge this fact. A man is supposed to lead and the woman is supposed to concern herself with how to support that lead.

And as the husband on this thread has pointed out, many are emphasizing a self-sacrifice of a husband in such a way as for a wife to seize control of her husband all over again.

You are quite wrong. None of us here(certianly not me) wish to 'seize control' over our husbands. I respect him far too highly for that. He is my head, but in a loving and respectful way. He listens to me and has no problems with doing things another way if he feels that is right. He respects my feelings and opinions as being of equal importance to his own.This way I feel loved and respected.
Marriage is a partnership between 2 people who are equal in the sight of God.   

IF man is DEMANDING obedience something is VERY wrong.

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 03:03:33

Quote from: Cally on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 02:35:20

Quote from: Janice on Fri Dec 07, 2012 - 23:41:36

But often, men (and sometimes women, as we see from the ministry who does these videos) take the submission thing as meaning they have "authority over" or "leadership over" their wives.

It does. Just as Jesus has authority over us. "He is the image of God, but woman is the glory of man." When God incarnated, he incarnated as male, not female--not a coin toss. "If you have seen me you have seen the Father," said Jesus. The image of God is male, not female. On the other hand the entire church is the bride of Christ which is very much submissive (the female to God's male) to God and does acknowledge him as authority. Male-to-female is authority-to-submission.

"Man was not made for woman, but woman for man." Egalitarian viewpoints will never acknowledge this fact. A man is supposed to lead and the woman is supposed to concern herself with how to support that lead.

And as the husband on this thread has pointed out, many are emphasizing a self-sacrifice of a husband in such a way as for a wife to seize control of her husband all over again.

You are quite wrong. None of us here(certianly not me) wish to 'seize control' over our husbands. I respect him far too highly for that. He is my head, but in a loving and respectful way. He listens to me and has no problems with doing things another way if he feels that is right. He respects my feelings and opinions as being of equal importance to his own.This way I feel loved and respected.
Marriage is a partnership between 2 people who are equal in the sight of God.   

IF man is DEMANDING obedience something is VERY wrong.

I disagree. I mean, yes, something is wrong if he HAS to demand respect, but not at his fault. When Jesus came to Earth he was patient with and endured many sorts of abuse, but there is no doubt that, in the end, he demands obedience from the world.

If a husband outright neglected to feed, clothe, and shelter his wife adequately, then I'd say he's due for a lecture on how to be self-sacrificing for her. But ultimately it's not in the best interests for either of them if he lets himself get kicked every which way for every whim of hers.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Dec 08, 2012 - 23:03:46
To me, a woman saying that is crying out for reassurance...not unlike the woman who tries on new clothes that look great on her and says to all who will listen, "I look awful, today," really expecting people to clamor after her saying, "Oh no, you look fabulous!" it is false humility, isn't it? Yet, there is a deep need in her for assurance.

I should think that there is a deep-seated need that has crept in that has caused your wife to lack the assurance that you cherish her, and what she brings to you, that you value her for what she thinks and offers you n terms of godly wisdom. If you deny her the satisfaction of hearing her or taking her opinions on board, you hew away at her self-esteem.

I would venture to say that her claim that you should never have married her would dissolve the moment you reach your arms around her and speak words of affirmation and love to her---at the cost of your composure. Softness goes a long way.

Just my opinion.

EXACTLY! 

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 02:48:20
Women NEED reassurance, and lots of it. She was hoping that you would give that when she said what she did.
Please note that she said 'you should never have married me'(needing reassurance), and not 'I should never have married you',(very disrespectful).

Exactly again!  She wasn't insulting you by saying "I should never have married YOU!", she is feeling like you are miserable with her and so she said "You should never have married ME!"
Two very distinct and different things.

As far as the "submit means authority and obedience" because Christ is our authority and we obey Him...He never forces it on us.  He wants us to submit and obey Him willingly.
AND
He serves! He is the greatest example of a servant leader! 

A woman will submit happily nine times out of ten if she feels loved, safe and cherished...and knows that her dh is willing to have a servants heart towards her and her children, take into consideration her feelings (even if they are illogical), and protect her.

Men are called to live with their wives in an understanding way, and love her like Christ loved the Church. He loved it so much, He laid His life down...

If people would just read this passage every morning before they start their day, prayerfully considering what it is saying...I believe so many issues of conflict could be avoided.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.

~~~
AND!  Then go back and re-read the "Love is" portion and everywhere "love" is found, replace it with our names...how do we measure up?  How much do we really love others?

QuoteI mean, yes, something is wrong if he HAS to demand respect, but not at his fault. When Jesus came to Earth he was patient with and endured many sorts of abuse, but there is no doubt that, in the end, he demands obedience from the world.

I do not want to go off-topic, so if mods want to remove this and make a new thread, that's okay. But I would like a passage of scripture that says God DEMANDS obedience.

You will not be able to find one. The very nature of love (and God is love) is the free will, including the free will to disobey. Yes, there are consequences, but this is why grace is is also part of the nature of love. It is necessary. If men would stop focusing on their "right to exert authority over their wives" and instead focus on growing in grace, they would find their wives would be much more respectfully responsive.

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 11:16:41

QuoteI mean, yes, something is wrong if he HAS to demand respect, but not at his fault. When Jesus came to Earth he was patient with and endured many sorts of abuse, but there is no doubt that, in the end, he demands obedience from the world.

I do not want to go off-topic, so if mods want to remove this and make a new thread, that's okay. But I would like a passage of scripture that says God DEMANDS obedience.

You will not be able to find one. The very nature of love (and God is love) is the free will, including the free will to disobey. Yes, there are consequences, but this is why grace is is also part of the nature of love. It is necessary. If men would stop focusing on their "right to exert authority over their wives" and instead focus on growing in grace, they would find their wives would be much more respectfully responsive.

Luke 19:27
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"

There are LOTS of passages where God disciplines his church, such as with their error with communion (irreverence for Christ). Jesus also speaks strongly against most of the seven churches in Revelation.

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 11:16:41

QuoteI mean, yes, something is wrong if he HAS to demand respect, but not at his fault. When Jesus came to Earth he was patient with and endured many sorts of abuse, but there is no doubt that, in the end, he demands obedience from the world.

I do not want to go off-topic, so if mods want to remove this and make a new thread, that's okay. But I would like a passage of scripture that says God DEMANDS obedience.

You will not be able to find one. The very nature of love (and God is love) is the free will, including the free will to disobey. Yes, there are consequences, but this is why grace is is also part of the nature of love. It is necessary. If men would stop focusing on their "right to exert authority over their wives" and instead focus on growing in grace, they would find their wives would be much more respectfully responsive.

Amen

We each need to be focusing on what WE can do to be a better husband or wife, and NOT on what the other spouse HAS to do to keep US happy.

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 11:39:19

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 11:16:41

QuoteI mean, yes, something is wrong if he HAS to demand respect, but not at his fault. When Jesus came to Earth he was patient with and endured many sorts of abuse, but there is no doubt that, in the end, he demands obedience from the world.

I do not want to go off-topic, so if mods want to remove this and make a new thread, that's okay. But I would like a passage of scripture that says God DEMANDS obedience.

You will not be able to find one. The very nature of love (and God is love) is the free will, including the free will to disobey. Yes, there are consequences, but this is why grace is is also part of the nature of love. It is necessary. If men would stop focusing on their "right to exert authority over their wives" and instead focus on growing in grace, they would find their wives would be much more respectfully responsive.

Amen

We each need to be focusing on what WE can do to be a better husband or wife, and NOT on what the other spouse HAS to do to keep US happy.

I believe there  are a lot of husbands out there who can become "better husbands" if they stand up to their wives in modern culture.

Quote from: Cally on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 11:40:47

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 11:39:19

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 11:16:41

QuoteI mean, yes, something is wrong if he HAS to demand respect, but not at his fault. When Jesus came to Earth he was patient with and endured many sorts of abuse, but there is no doubt that, in the end, he demands obedience from the world.

I do not want to go off-topic, so if mods want to remove this and make a new thread, that's okay. But I would like a passage of scripture that says God DEMANDS obedience.

You will not be able to find one. The very nature of love (and God is love) is the free will, including the free will to disobey. Yes, there are consequences, but this is why grace is is also part of the nature of love. It is necessary. If men would stop focusing on their "right to exert authority over their wives" and instead focus on growing in grace, they would find their wives would be much more respectfully responsive.

Amen

We each need to be focusing on what WE can do to be a better husband or wife, and NOT on what the other spouse HAS to do to keep US happy.

I believe there  are a lot of husbands out there who can become "better husbands" if they stand up to their wives in modern culture.

Guess it depends on how you define "better".

Why anyone would even have the mindset of "stand up to" in marriage is beyond me.

I find it interesting that you are bringing up free will from your own points of view.  As a Lutheran, Free Will is paramount in our spiritual existence.  God has placed us here, and we could all have a purpose in his plan.  Every moment of every day there is opportunity to impact the World on His behalf by excercising our Free Will.  If we could only discern what it would be at that moment.  I believe that opportunities presented at some moments may be more important than others, but the point is that in a perfect World our Free Will would be reacting to God's Will.  This is our failure.

With respect to my wife, when I first married her I did so because she followed me.  She didn't really want to, but she did.  Apart from the damage done to our relationship by things that have been said and done, my biggest fear is that she will never again follow me of her own Free Will.  I don't know if I can live like that.  I will never "dominate" a woman, she has to Love and Respect me.  If I can't lead her through discussion and reason, then there really is no hope.

I believe that this is part of our problem, and I really don't know who is in the wrong.  From the very begginning I knew what I wanted and that has never changed.  That worked when she didn't really know what she wanted and was busy with the children.  But now she has decided it is time for her to have what she values the most, instead of what I do.  Her position seems to be that it is my turn to bend to her will, and I just don't know if I am capable of that.  I don't value that kind of life, and I am unwilling to take on the responsibiilty and stress of making it work.  Biblical Marriage aside, I understand her position.  But that doesn't solve our problem.