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Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 10:44:41

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 09:37:01

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 09:22:24
How a marriage functions is a question of respect, morality, and leadership.

wow.  Nothing about love, nothing about willingess to sacrifice selfish opinions, nothing about serving one another...

sad.

Good point, your right.  Men are always criticized about this, women need to be told that they are loved and men just don't get it.  But it goes both ways, if half the effort that has been placed on men to understand women had been invested in women understanding men (and yes, accepting), there would be a huge gain in happiness.

Women want men to talk about love and show love. But men have a hard time doing that, they instead instictivly "demonstrate" Love.  I think women take for granted or don't even notice the ways men demonstrate their love.  How could they, they don't really understand men?  I get a brain cramp thinking about it, so I'm not going to try to explain.

As for talking about love and showing love.  How many times does a woman keep going back to a man that beats her simply because he always tells her he loves her and somehow shows her it's true, until he beats her again.  How many women leave a man because he doesn't tell her or show her he loves her, but he doesn't beat her and does provide for her and their children.  Those are two extremes, but I think it demonstrates that women could show a little more understanding.  Men don't put a lot of faith in words, it doesn't take a lot of effort to blow a little hot air.  They are more interested in actions, and they demonstrate their Love through actions.

Women do to, but a lot of things women seem to view as "sacrifices", men view as responsibilities.  That is another huge area of differing perspective.  I have NEVER sacrificed for my wife or family.  The proof of that is that I am still alive and breathing.  But, I've always worked very hard.  I think our differing perceptions of "sacrifice" is important.  I'm getting a brain cramp again.


Incidentally, there are a lot of places in the Bible where it tells you not to trust your heart.  And a lot of places that do tell you to follow your heart?  I'm not sure I'm correct here, but I think that the origonal language of the Bible had several different terms/kinds of Love?  Maybe that's part of the problem for English speaking people, one word for Love?  I think the Eskimos have like 100 words for snow.  Communication, Love?  Discernment? Braincramp?


Oh, one last thing.  Has your husband ever bowed down to the floor and pressed his head against the tops of your feet and begged you to calm down?  Don't ever question my capacity to compromise, defer, or Love.  We have some problems.  I wanted the counselor, my wife chose the internet.

Haha. Great post.

Note to self: confess your love, don´t just demonstrate

QuoteI wanted the counselor, my wife chose the internet.

Your wife had said that the first 2 counselors that you went to didn't work. Her reasons for those not working sounded very legitimate. She reached out for help here, which isn't a bad thing considering how poorly the first 2 counselors worked.

You guys do need counseling. Neither of you is happy with how things are going. Neither of you is trying to make the marriage fail, but you aren't finding something that works.

You read to be very logical in your thinking and trying to follow a principled stance. What I see is both of you have issues and need to find something that works. I read many things you write that would hurt almost any wife. I don't think you are trying to hurt your marriage and wife, but you are hurting your marriage.

I want to say as well that the longer this issues stays the angry, hurt, and contempt will all increase with your love and connection failing. Please fix this before the love and connection in your marriage is gone and all that is left is hurt, anger, and contempt.  Fixing issues when the connection is gone and all your wife sees is anger and hurt when she sees you is much more difficult, and people often give up and leave at that point.

You also cannot force your wife into counseling. She wrote the reasons why she didn't like the first two. She is probably not interested in going because it went so poorly previously.

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:52:55

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 19:05:06

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 16:02:10
Lively Stone,

I'm no Biblical authority, but isn't granting yourself the title of being righteous at least a little self-righteous?

The way I was raised, it might even be considered borderline blashpemy.

Best Wishes

The bible says that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. What more is there to say? I agree with God. It's more blasphemic to suggest that God is a liar, justwonderingshusband. Perhaps in that case, it's a good thing you don't know the bible.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1 John 4:17
Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

What these things are speaking of is the Grace that we can accept.  Something that we will never deserve, because we are not righteous.  It is like being stranded naked in Antartica.  Your going to freezed to death, unless someone lends you a parka.  When someone offers to lend you a parka and you accept, is it suddenly your parka?  Do you own the parka?  Yes, it is yours for the taking, but to claim ownership?  (Admitedly this example falls short, but I have to try.)  What if a gust of wind comes up and takes the parka, and your naked again.  All the sudden your going to die again.  But lucky you, the very same guy is standing there handing you another parka out of the goodness of their heart.

The only RIGHTEOUS man/human who ever lived was Jesus Christ, our savior.  That is the whole point, we ride to salvation on his coattails through the Grace of God.  God accepts what his son did for us in lieu of the righteousness that we are incapable of ever attaining.  He is showing Grace.

To claim righteousness through "works" or any other Worldly conduct is blasphemy.

and not one person on this thread has said anything like this!

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51Salvation is acquired through continuous and sincere attempts at being righteous, continuous and sincere acceptance and repentance for failing in these attempts, and continuous and sincere acceptance of Grace.  These are things that cannot be weighed or measured by your Pastor, your Prayer Group, your spouse, your family, your friends, the general public, the government, or yourself.  They are weighed and measured by God alone.

Salvation is aquired through the sacrifice of Christ, the Perfect Lamb of God.  No one comes to the Father except through Him. He is quite clear on that!

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51Be careful, and yes fearful.  Only God knows whether you are truly sincere.  I sincerely worry about myself?  I fear and Love God.  But what if I have just convinced myself I'm saved simply because of what everyone else thinks of me.  It doesn't matter if I'm the leader at Bible Study or an elder in the Church. 

How sad!  The word says that today is the day of salvation and that we know we are His because the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  You don't have to worry! 

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51So what, people are not the ones who determine my sincerety.  Only God does, and personally I have to admit failure.  I'm busy dealing with all the other sinners, trying to make my way in this World.  I'm not a bad guy and a lot of people think I'm a good guy, but I know that I'll never be good enough to deserve the the Salvation I am being offered.

Thats the whole point! NONE of us will ever be able to deserve it! That's what grace is!  Unmerited favor!

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51We all live in a perpetual state of sin,

No we don't.  We are washed, cleaned, forgiven and we have Christ who is our advocate when/if we sin.  This is truth found easily in scripture!  1 John 1:9 If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51and measuring ourselves against others is a very misguided notion. 

I agree with you here..but why are you saing it? No one has said anything about this???

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51It is important from our Worldly perspective to function socially, and of course obeying Gods Law obviously leads us the right direction and helps us do "good works", which is why living as a Christian leads to a better life and a better World.  But never think you are "good" enough to claim that you are righteous.

We are not righteous on our own, and no one is saying that.  We are made the righteousness of God through Christ!

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51It is not a sad or defeating revelation, it is wonderful.  You can quite thinking that you are going to go to Heaven because your a good person, and begin knowing you will go to Heaven because you've accepted the challenge of never forgetting that you really don't deserve it.

THAT is NOT what gets us into Heaven...and Lively NEVER said anything about being a good person.
Christ is the gate, the door the narrow road that we must go through to get to the Father, everything else is trying to climb in another way.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51You either get it, or you don't.  I believe that we all need to pray for each other, because we all spend our lives failing to "get it".  We just can't, we are inherently insincere and pridefull.  I even feel bad typing this, because I am a failure.  But I have learned to live in the reality of this perpetual state of sin, and ask God's forgiveness for the arrogance that leads me to type this post.  However, as a Christian, I simply cannot let this point go unaddressed.

Again,... the only righteous person who ever set foot on this earth was Jesus Christ, the Son of God.  For any other human to claim righteousness is akin to claiming Godship, which is blasphemy.

Really? Anyone else?  2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51(I'm pretty sure that anytime someone was called righteous in the Bible, it was God who said it.  Not man, certainly not themselves.)

And that is what God has done through the promise of His word, that through Christ we are made righteous in His eyes.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51You can see from my wife's earlier posts that she vehemetly disagrees with me.  It is a problem.

You should listen to her...she is right.

Quote from: JohnDB on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 10:53:26

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 10:38:57
John, you see things as you see them, and others see them differently. Its not for you to say that others here dont know what they are talking about, especially when some of them have had very long and happy marriages, Also women see things very differently from men, so both perspectives are valid. YOURS and THEIRS, even if you disagree.

Its the strong personality that wants to be in the lead thingy that you, lively and MeMyself have that is being the issue at the moment...of course you aren't going to see it as a problem. But that sort of personality in a woman along with some of her other personality traits which has been left to fester into something that it shouldn't be is exactly the problem.

Not that having a strong personality is a problem in itself...just that you three wouldn't even begin to see how it will emasculate a guy who tends to stay reserved.

In a relationship between two committed Christians, that God has put together? It is not a problem.

Quote from: JohnDB on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 10:53:26

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 10:38:57
John, you see things as you see them, and others see them differently. Its not for you to say that others here dont know what they are talking about, especially when some of them have had very long and happy marriages, Also women see things very differently from men, so both perspectives are valid. YOURS and THEIRS, even if you disagree.

Its the strong personality that wants to be in the lead thingy that you, lively and MeMyself have that is being the issue at the moment...of course you aren't going to see it as a problem. But that sort of personality in a woman along with some of her other personality traits which has been left to fester into something that it shouldn't be is exactly the problem.

Not that having a strong personality is a problem in itself...just that you three wouldn't even begin to see how it will emasculate a guy who tends to stay reserved.

You are making judgements in things that you know nothing about. We all have good and happy marriages, and speaking for my own husband, he says he is the happiest that he has ever been so I must be doing something right. Of course it helps that he is laid back, easy to please, kind, patient and loving and he also treats me with the greatest respect, as I do him. He would never 'demand' obedience, (that would be a disaster for most marriages), or order me about, or treat me as a 'lesser being', and he never needs to, because despite the fact that I am a strong person in many ways(and I have needed to be in my life), I love him to bits and respect him highly.

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 10:38:57
John, you see things as you see them, and others see them differently. Its not for you to say that others here dont know what they are talking about, especially when some of them have had very long and happy marriages, Also women see things very differently from men, so both perspectives are valid. YOURS and THEIRS, even if you disagree.

yep. But, I guess its easy to dismiss and discredit people that just rub you the wrong way. 

I just use the IGNORE feature for people who  can't help but be snarky and make baseless accusations about people that aren't even talking to them.
Its a beautiful thing, that blessed ignore button!

I know a lot about strong personalities. Quite a lot in fact.

How you think that I don't is kinda weird. My first wife that I was married to for 17yrs was exactly that. And I made all the same mistakes the husband is saying he has. She of course is behaving just like my first wife did.

I know this situation all too well as I lived it.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 13:38:08

Quote from: JohnDB on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 10:53:26

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 10:38:57
John, you see things as you see them, and others see them differently. Its not for you to say that others here dont know what they are talking about, especially when some of them have had very long and happy marriages, Also women see things very differently from men, so both perspectives are valid. YOURS and THEIRS, even if you disagree.

Its the strong personality that wants to be in the lead thingy that you, lively and MeMyself have that is being the issue at the moment...of course you aren't going to see it as a problem. But that sort of personality in a woman along with some of her other personality traits which has been left to fester into something that it shouldn't be is exactly the problem.

Not that having a strong personality is a problem in itself...just that you three wouldn't even begin to see how it will emasculate a guy who tends to stay reserved.

In a relationship between two committed Christians, that God has put together? It is not a problem.

DANG it! The ignore doesn't work if people quote...

I never said one word about anyone leading...just for the record.

My dh is the leader of our home, but he does so in a gentle, servant leadership way...and (gasp because I am apparently such a strong willed pain in the hiney) he respects my input and way of thinking.

Quote from: JohnDB on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 14:46:49
I know a lot about strong personalities. Quite a lot in fact.

How you think that I don't is kinda weird. My first wife that I was married to for 17yrs was exactly that. And I made all the same mistakes the husband is saying he has. She of course is behaving just like my first wife did.

I know this situation all too well as I lived it.

John everyone is different. You cant posibly say just because your ex wife was this way or that way, that she was the same as this mans wife or as other ladies on the forum. You have no idea what our marriages are like, you ONLY know what YOUR marriages were like. Yours werent happy presumably, and ours are, that is a big difference to start with. You are assuming that the op's marriage is the same as your was, which is highly unlikely.

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 14:49:41

Quote from: Lively Stone on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 13:38:08

Quote from: JohnDB on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 10:53:26

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 10:38:57
John, you see things as you see them, and others see them differently. Its not for you to say that others here dont know what they are talking about, especially when some of them have had very long and happy marriages, Also women see things very differently from men, so both perspectives are valid. YOURS and THEIRS, even if you disagree.

Its the strong personality that wants to be in the lead thingy that you, lively and MeMyself have that is being the issue at the moment...of course you aren't going to see it as a problem. But that sort of personality in a woman along with some of her other personality traits which has been left to fester into something that it shouldn't be is exactly the problem.

Not that having a strong personality is a problem in itself...just that you three wouldn't even begin to see how it will emasculate a guy who tends to stay reserved.

In a relationship between two committed Christians, that God has put together? It is not a problem.

DANG it! The ignore doesn't work if people quote...

I never said one word about anyone leading...just for the record.

My dh is the leader of our home, but he does so in a gentle, servant leadership way...and (gasp because I am apparently such a strong willed pain in the hiney) he respects my input and way of thinking.

well memyself, we all know thats what you are

Quote from: JohnDB on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 14:46:49
I know a lot about strong personalities. Quite a lot in fact.

How you think that I don't is kinda weird. My first wife that I was married to for 17yrs was exactly that. And I made all the same mistakes the husband is saying he has. She of course is behaving just like my first wife did.

I know this situation all too well as I lived it.

So, how would you have "fixed" it if you could go back.

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 14:49:41
DANG it! The ignore doesn't work if people quote...

I never said one word about anyone leading...just for the record.

My dh is the leader of our home, but he does so in a gentle, servant leadership way...and (gasp because I am apparently such a strong willed pain in the hiney) he respects my input and way of thinking.

Same here!

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 15:29:32

Quote from: JohnDB on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 14:46:49
I know a lot about strong personalities. Quite a lot in fact.

How you think that I don't is kinda weird. My first wife that I was married to for 17yrs was exactly that. And I made all the same mistakes the husband is saying he has. She of course is behaving just like my first wife did.

I know this situation all too well as I lived it.

So, how would you have "fixed" it if you could go back.

I wrote a post to you at the top of page ten and the ladies have been yammering non stop so it is possible for you to NOT see it...and overlook it.

Mostly because they see a "strong personality" as something of a derogatory remark in the lines of overbearing...but it really isn't. And so they have become the norm for such in the lines of disparaging remarks and subtle manipulations to try to illicit a particular response. (Which I am sure that you are all too well acquainted with at the moment)

And I would first off recommend to stop allowing your wife to manipulate you into anything with any kind of disparaging or disaproving remarks whatsoever. In fact just the reverse is called for. If there is a nickname that she doesn't like...IE: Catty instead of Catherine...that is exactly the sort of thing that I would definitely start using regularly when addressing her. Get her off balance and out of the driver's seat. Sure she may claim that she follows your lead but words ain't actions. And using a nickname that she doesn't like is the start of it all. (she will grow to like it soon enough) If you make dinner be sure it is something that you like and she doesn't. (just a few times) But add a dessert or side dish that she will love when you do that.

Second...do some of the things I discussed in my first post directed to you.
Appeal to her Christian nature.
Remind her that you love her and only want what is best for her and the whole family.

Sigh.

I have been reading this thread for the last couple of days, and wasn't going to get involved at first.  I wasn't sure what the issues seemed to be.  It was confusing to be honest.

I sit here stunned that all this started over wanting to move, and not wanting to move. I can't even imagine how the small stuff ends up like.  YIKES!

First off, I can understand not wishing to move.  You have children going to college soon, and we don't know where this economy is going.  Most people are holding off on huge items like this waiting for things to settle down a bit. I'm on your side here, but your passive aggressive deal with how she can do all the work..and I will sign the papers...she can get a second to pay for it as well...blah blah blah?  Can I say major ICK VILLE!  That is not very discerning of you - you have to admit!

Now it would be different if you both had been talking about this for years, and it was a goal.  That is something you can plan for years ahead of time.  For myself?  I would wait until the kids are done with school.  People are losing jobs left and right because of all kinds of crazy things.  Some the companies faults, and some just plain aren't!

Companies can be strong as a brick, and something can crack that foundation.  Times change, and so do economic circumstances.  For example, when Social Security started it was the purpose of people having decent incomes in later years.  Thing is most people realize you need to plan above and beyond social security.  Its hard to make it on that alone.  Sounds like you are planner - a prepare r, etc.  That's an asset to be sure.  How about starting with college costs - economy upheaval - retirement planning, because its reality.  Don't play the games.  It hasn't work so far has it?  You have so much going for you.  Don't blow it that way.

Namecalling was mentioned, and it mostly falls on her.  I also get the impression she tends to fly off the handle.  Both of those things are unacceptable.  Some state if she is calling you names she is feeling insecure about something.  That's all find and good, but its just an excuse.  Its a bad habit, and it causes resentment - and shows a lack of respect.  That respect I speak of is a human respect - not  a gender role characteristic.  Yes, she needs to get a grip on that.  She also needs to apologize and show she can move past this trait.  Its won't be easy, but if she truly wants the relationship to last?  She will place in the effort forward.  You won't get anywhere in relationship acting like this no matter WHO you are, and WHAT the circumstance.  It just won't work.

I have to mention though some of the items you mentioned like kissing her feet?  That's condescending.  lol I will admit I would be tempted to fly off the handle if my husband EVER did that to make a point.  In Jest?  Sure I would laugh along with the joke.  The way you describe her rages you are lucky you still have teeth!   I'm not kidding here.

You have some assets sir, but you do tend to be condescending which maybe feeding her just a tad.  You also seem to be passive aggressive from your descriptions. 

QuoteThis is why a lot of men really don't seem care about a lot of things that are important to women.  They really don't get it, and they almost can't.  They don't even try, but that doesn't mean they don't care.

Caring is trying to understand the other.  Its the same the other way around.  Don't you do that with your kids or employees?  You seem very intelligent - so USE it!  Seriouly!  I know its IN THERE!

Lets take your 'house' situation.  Okay. I realize she wants to move.  You don't.  What about talking about an agreed budget for a renovation of part of the house.  YES, I realize its still spending money.  Its cheaper than moving, and it can be just as exciting.  For example, I know you always HATED the kitchen cabinet.  How about we look into refacing them?  I realize you hate the carpet could we maybe look into hardwood to replace it?  Keep in mind some redecorating will happens as well.  Just agree on a budget, and then allow her to do it her way.  Yes, throw it past you of course.  Just remember your attitude here - you are attempting a compromise on your 'no moving' stand.  Remember (for your preparation, planner side) In certain circumstances it could increase the your home's value, or help it get sold quicker when the time comes.  That's a savings.  Meanwhile, she is in the home but it looks upgraded because IT IS!  You both give a little, and you both win.  You get to stay, but have to spend some money.  She can't move, but her house now looks awesome.

That sir is called trying to care.  You need to be nice about stating you want to be financially responsible during this time.  That is what your point you wanted to make anyway it seemed to me.  Totally understandable.  You both ALSO have retirement to think about.  She can understand this important aspect of your personality if you approach it differently.  If she gets wound up?  NICELY inform her that you will be willing to continue when she calms down.  That boundary is perfectly acceptable.  lol and stop kissing the feet!

I remember a time when my father wanted to move from their home after we were both out (brother and I).  Mom didn't want to.  There was too much up in the air during this time in their lifes, because they were dealing with elderly parents.  On top of that they were 1,000 miles away, and needed to be moved to where the folks were.  Mom understood they could use a smaller place, but just NOT NOW!  No doubt Dad was disappointed, but he got the point.  He also realizes she was right about the amount on their plates at this time.  He also acknowledged  it could be YEARS before that smaller place happened.  Dad died before they got their smaller place, but it a was goal they made if he had lived.  Matter of fact during his illness SHE hinted that a smaller place maybe easier for him since he was dying, and the home had alot of stairs.  lol this time DAD didn't want to move!  It was too overwhelming for him.  Mom accepted it.  She did look into the chairs that glide up the stairs so he didn't have to walk them...lol Dad didn't want that either.  The subject was dropped, and he made sure SHE knew he appreciated her suggestion.

You see there doesn't' have to be this driver's seat fight going on if you both TRIED to see the other's point of view, and attempt something that would be asset to both.  Again I can clearly see you have the intelligence to do this.  You both aren't placing the effort into it. 

Someone mentioned women like to hear things in order to feel loved, or something along those lines.  Then I read something about throwing women a little hot air to make them happy.  That is condescending and disrespectful thing to say.  Let me tell you if my husband attempted some 'words to make me feel loved' with an attitude of throwing me hot air?  Your guaranteed the hot air words won't do much for me.  Those types of descriptions don't show 'caring' either, and lol please don't tell me men don't get that.  They aren't that dumb, and everyone knows this!  It was said as insult or dig, and attitude is the key issue here on both sides.  You both have lousy attitudes at this point.  You both won that award - no offense.

You need to stop being condescending, because its it pushing her buttons.  Honestly?  I think you know that.  She needs to deal with you as a SALESPERSON would if they had a condescending customer if you can't find a way to stop.  Her rage sessions are just making the dynamic worse.  I have been in sales as well, and there are ways of dealing with this personality type.  It would stop the raging at you, but I don't' know how far your relationship would get.

You both need to learn to start to love and respect each other.  Neither of you seem to be capable of this right now.  Its a shame because you both have so much history, a solid financial future, and it wouldn't kill both of you to pull up the boot straps up.  You both would benefit greatly.

QuoteI would first off recommend to stop allowing your wife to manipulate you into anything with any kind of disparaging or disaproving remarks whatsoever. In fact just the reverse is called for. If there is a nickname that she doesn't like...IE: Catty instead of Catherine...that is exactly the sort of thing that I would definitely start using regularly when addressing her. Get her off balance and out of the driver's seat. Sure she may claim that she follows your lead but words ain't actions. And using a nickname that she doesn't like is the start of it all. (she will grow to like it soon enough) If you make dinner be sure it is something that you like and she doesn't. (just a few times) But add a dessert or side dish that she will love when you do that.

OH MY GOODNESS!  lol are you serious John?  God states we should treat others as we would wish to be treated.  If your name was Charles, and you didn't like nicknames?  Then people started to call you Chuck or Charlie and didn't stop?  No doubt you would get used to it, but how high would that respect level be for them be?  TALK about button pushing!  Being a sinner myself? (laughs) I would be tempted to not acknowledge the person until they could get the name right.  That would be my way of LOVING you back...feeling it yet? (laughs again)

Until they can both admit they are acting like poopheads at times your desert theory will also blow up in his face.  The point would be lost, and talk about a new kind of fight here.  Playing games has never been gender exclusive!  Admit it - it is a game!

I pray that you both get it together.  What an example you would both make if you could.   You both are playing off each other, and it needs to stop.  Neither of you are doing things in a way to show your love and respect that all of us need as humans. 

The attitude is key.  You can do things that are asked of you, but if you do them with the wrong attitude?  That clanging GONG from scripture comes to mind.  Its similar to the attitude God asks about tithes or offerings.  He wishes you to give because it came from your heart to give - not because you feel you have to - or need to.  Your heart  - he wants you to give with your heart.  Its the same here.  I hope you both find a way.  No doubt you both are capable.  I pray that you try, and find a decent counselor to help.  You both have so much going for you, and I KNOW you can do this!

(praying)

Quote from: HannahT on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 18:55:10
Sigh.

I have been reading this thread for the last couple of days, and wasn't going to get involved at first.  I wasn't sure what the issues seemed to be.  It was confusing to be honest.

I sit here stunned that all this started over wanting to move, and not wanting to move. I can't even imagine how the small stuff ends up like.  YIKES!

First off, I can understand not wishing to move.  You have children going to college soon, and we don't know where this economy is going.  Most people are holding off on huge items like this waiting for things to settle down a bit. I'm on your side here, but your passive aggressive deal with how she can do all the work..and I will sign the papers...she can get a second to pay for it as well...blah blah blah?  Can I say major ICK VILLE!  That is not very discerning of you - you have to admit!

Now it would be different if you both had been talking about this for years, and it was a goal.  That is something you can plan for years ahead of time.  For myself?  I would wait until the kids are done with school.  People are losing jobs left and right because of all kinds of crazy things.  Some the companies faults, and some just plain aren't!

Companies can be strong as a brick, and something can crack that foundation.  Times change, and so do economic circumstances.  For example, when Social Security started it was the purpose of people having decent incomes in later years.  Thing is most people realize you need to plan above and beyond social security.  Its hard to make it on that alone.  Sounds like you are planner - a prepare r, etc.  That's an asset to be sure.  How about starting with college costs - economy upheaval - retirement planning, because its reality.  Don't play the games.  It hasn't work so far has it?  You have so much going for you.  Don't blow it that way.

Namecalling was mentioned, and it mostly falls on her.  I also get the impression she tends to fly off the handle.  Both of those things are unacceptable.  Some state if she is calling you names she is feeling insecure about something.  That's all find and good, but its just an excuse.  Its a bad habit, and it causes resentment - and shows a lack of respect.  That respect I speak of is a human respect - not  a gender role characteristic.  Yes, she needs to get a grip on that.  She also needs to apologize and show she can move past this trait.  Its won't be easy, but if she truly wants the relationship to last?  She will place in the effort forward.  You won't get anywhere in relationship acting like this no matter WHO you are, and WHAT the circumstance.  It just won't work.

I have to mention though some of the items you mentioned like kissing her feet?  That's condescending.  lol I will admit I would be tempted to fly off the handle if my husband EVER did that to make a point.  In Jest?  Sure I would laugh along with the joke.  The way you describe her rages you are lucky you still have teeth!   I'm not kidding here.

You have some assets sir, but you do tend to be condescending which maybe feeding her just a tad.  You also seem to be passive aggressive from your descriptions. 

QuoteThis is why a lot of men really don't seem care about a lot of things that are important to women.  They really don't get it, and they almost can't.  They don't even try, but that doesn't mean they don't care.

Caring is trying to understand the other.  Its the same the other way around.  Don't you do that with your kids or employees?  You seem very intelligent - so USE it!  Seriouly!  I know its IN THERE!

Lets take your 'house' situation.  Okay. I realize she wants to move.  You don't.  What about talking about an agreed budget for a renovation of part of the house.  YES, I realize its still spending money.  Its cheaper than moving, and it can be just as exciting.  For example, I know you always HATED the kitchen cabinet.  How about we look into refacing them?  I realize you hate the carpet could we maybe look into hardwood to replace it?  Keep in mind some redecorating will happens as well.  Just agree on a budget, and then allow her to do it her way.  Yes, throw it past you of course.  Just remember your attitude here - you are attempting a compromise on your 'no moving' stand.  Remember (for your preparation, planner side) In certain circumstances it could increase the your home's value, or help it get sold quicker when the time comes.  That's a savings.  Meanwhile, she is in the home but it looks upgraded because IT IS!  You both give a little, and you both win.  You get to stay, but have to spend some money.  She can't move, but her house now looks awesome.

That sir is called trying to care.  You need to be nice about stating you want to be financially responsible during this time.  That is what your point you wanted to make anyway it seemed to me.  Totally understandable.  You both ALSO have retirement to think about.  She can understand this important aspect of your personality if you approach it differently.  If she gets wound up?  NICELY inform her that you will be willing to continue when she calms down.  That boundary is perfectly acceptable.  lol and stop kissing the feet!

I remember a time when my father wanted to move from their home after we were both out (brother and I).  Mom didn't want to.  There was too much up in the air during this time in their lifes, because they were dealing with elderly parents.  On top of that they were 1,000 miles away, and needed to be moved to where the folks were.  Mom understood they could use a smaller place, but just NOT NOW!  No doubt Dad was disappointed, but he got the point.  He also realizes she was right about the amount on their plates at this time.  He also acknowledged  it could be YEARS before that smaller place happened.  Dad died before they got their smaller place, but it a was goal they made if he had lived.  Matter of fact during his illness SHE hinted that a smaller place maybe easier for him since he was dying, and the home had alot of stairs.  lol this time DAD didn't want to move!  It was too overwhelming for him.  Mom accepted it.  She did look into the chairs that glide up the stairs so he didn't have to walk them...lol Dad didn't want that either.  The subject was dropped, and he made sure SHE knew he appreciated her suggestion.

You see there doesn't' have to be this driver's seat fight going on if you both TRIED to see the other's point of view, and attempt something that would be asset to both.  Again I can clearly see you have the intelligence to do this.  You both aren't placing the effort into it. 

Someone mentioned women like to hear things in order to feel loved, or something along those lines.  Then I read something about throwing women a little hot air to make them happy.  That is condescending and disrespectful thing to say.  Let me tell you if my husband attempted some 'words to make me feel loved' with an attitude of throwing me hot air?  Your guaranteed the hot air words won't do much for me.  Those types of descriptions don't show 'caring' either, and lol please don't tell me men don't get that.  They aren't that dumb, and everyone knows this!  It was said as insult or dig, and attitude is the key issue here on both sides.  You both have lousy attitudes at this point.  You both won that award - no offense.

You need to stop being condescending, because its it pushing her buttons.  Honestly?  I think you know that.  She needs to deal with you as a SALESPERSON would if they had a condescending customer if you can't find a way to stop.  Her rage sessions are just making the dynamic worse.  I have been in sales as well, and there are ways of dealing with this personality type.  It would stop the raging at you, but I don't' know how far your relationship would get.

You both need to learn to start to love and respect each other.  Neither of you seem to be capable of this right now.  Its a shame because you both have so much history, a solid financial future, and it wouldn't kill both of you to pull up the boot straps up.  You both would benefit greatly.

QuoteI would first off recommend to stop allowing your wife to manipulate you into anything with any kind of disparaging or disaproving remarks whatsoever. In fact just the reverse is called for. If there is a nickname that she doesn't like...IE: Catty instead of Catherine...that is exactly the sort of thing that I would definitely start using regularly when addressing her. Get her off balance and out of the driver's seat. Sure she may claim that she follows your lead but words ain't actions. And using a nickname that she doesn't like is the start of it all. (she will grow to like it soon enough) If you make dinner be sure it is something that you like and she doesn't. (just a few times) But add a dessert or side dish that she will love when you do that.

OH MY GOODNESS!  lol are you serious John?  God states we should treat others as we would wish to be treated.  If your name was Charles, and you didn't like nicknames?  Then people started to call you Chuck or Charlie and didn't stop?  No doubt you would get used to it, but how high would that respect level be for them be?  TALK about button pushing!  Being a sinner myself? (laughs) I would be tempted to not acknowledge the person until they could get the name right.  That would be my way of LOVING you back...feeling it yet? (laughs again)

Until they can both admit they are acting like poopheads at times your desert theory will also blow up in his face.  The point would be lost, and talk about a new kind of fight here.  Playing games has never been gender exclusive!  Admit it - it is a game!

I pray that you both get it together.  What an example you would both make if you could.   You both are playing off each other, and it needs to stop.  Neither of you are doing things in a way to show your love and respect that all of us need as humans. 

The attitude is key.  You can do things that are asked of you, but if you do them with the wrong attitude?  That clanging GONG from scripture comes to mind.  Its similar to the attitude God asks about tithes or offerings.  He wishes you to give because it came from your heart to give - not because you feel you have to - or need to.  Your heart  - he wants you to give with your heart.  Its the same here.  I hope you both find a way.  No doubt you both are capable.  I pray that you try, and find a decent counselor to help.  You both have so much going for you, and I KNOW you can do this!

(praying)

Very long post, very well written.  From the facts given, I really can't argue with most of it.  Unfortunately our story is too long and unique to provide more information.

It is interesting how often you use the word "condescending" so often, when you come across a little condescending yourself.  Not an insult, just an observation, possibly a compliment.  I'm not offended.  I'll just say that it shows your thinking.  Kind of refreshing after some of the hissing and spitting that has been posted.  I know, that sounds condescending.

Just for the record, I never kissed her feet.  Rather than escalate the situation by yelling louder than her, or just driving away (I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have been there when I got back), I would get on my hands and knees and beg her to calm down.  She also said it was condescending, but it worked.  I'm also pretty sure that when I quit doing that to calm her tantrums is when the downward velocity of our relationship increased notably.

Your last part is dead on, for this situation to be resolved it has to come from the heart.  It can't be demanded.  I don't think I'm capable of moving forward until she somehow convinces me she is truly sorry for the way she has treated me.  To this moment she still feels fully justified in her disrespectful and verbally abusive attitude.  She says she shouldn't have said "You never should have married me....", and then starts making excuses  You really can't believe someone who says "I'm sorry" when it is immediately followed by "but".  It just isn't sincere.  So much of what she has done is inexcusable, only because she doesn't think it was inexcusable.

It's not an issue of forgiveness, it's an issue of her truly having remorse for the way she treated her husband.  Without that the relationship won't change or heal.  It will just keep repeating the same pattern.

Oh I know what I have reccomended doesn't seem to make sense. On one hand calling her a nickname & on the other giving reassurances of your love & adoration. But I've seen first hand that it works.

It was wayyy too late to turn back the clock on my first marriage. She was listening to anyone but me.  But it seems to be working awesome with my wife now. Yes she gets annoyed with the nickname BUT she now kinda likes it as I am the only one who is "allowed" to use it. No one else can get away with it but me.

Nothing much will change overnight but in time your intent will be clear to her and some much needed stability will come about.

Sorry Husband.  I should have proofread my 'book' (laughs) prior to hitting post.  True.  Maybe used the word a bit to much.  Can understand the annoyance.

It could be that she doesn't feel heard by you.  Not an excuse, but just observation of others.  Some feel they use all these tools in order to be heard - or acknowledged in some small way - and if they can't?  Some lash out, and others walk away and are done with you.  Its a choice.

People don't seem to get that words said in anger are very hard to let go of.  You can forgive, but you are still burnt.  It may never heal completely, and that is consequences we have to live with.  There is a book in James that speaks of the power of the tongue, and verbal abuse is included.  So are other games when using words.  They are powerful weapons, and can be used in all kinds of ways.  God certainly speaks against such practices.

Don't rely on her to hold up the entire relationship issue.  Both have to come together, and admit their issues.  I'm old and I have done this plenty of times myself.  Heck I'm human - made my mistakes as well.  Timing is key, and so is humility. 

In the meantime just be kind.  You have been with her long enough to know what type of kindness she responses too.  It may open a door.  You may not get the response you are looking for right away, but kindness does tend to melt people...and it will come in most circumstances.  God would be pleased no matter what with kindness.  You can't go wrong, and makes you feel better.  We need to do this for God as well.

John - my husband has a nickname that he hates!  Its not Charles by the way - that just popped into my mind.  He told me people at work call him this all the time, and he has worked there for almost 30 years.  lol he stopped asking them to quit!  Its a big company, and its going to happen I guess.  The regulars called him by his proper name, but his mother uses the nickname at times.  Her's is a term of endearment.   I use it only when teasing, and he knows that.  So we are cool!  I would NEVER used it as a tool, because its hurtful.  (laughs) why in heavens name would you annoy her on purpose? (giggles) and she doesn't clock you?

If we wait to see remorse to forgive someone we say has said or done "inexcuseable" things, then there is more likelihood that the marriage will remain in trouble.

The word of God instructs us to forgive, and doesn't tell us that there are conditions on our forgiveness.

Matthew 6:15
But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven.

Colossians 3:13
Make allowance for each other's faults, and forgive anyone who offends you. Remember, the Lord forgave you, so you must forgive others.

Quote from: HannahT on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 18:55:10
Sigh.

I have been reading this thread for the last couple of days, and wasn't going to get involved at first.  I wasn't sure what the issues seemed to be.  It was confusing to be honest.

I sit here stunned that all this started over wanting to move, and not wanting to move. I can't even imagine how the small stuff ends up like.  YIKES!

First off, I can understand not wishing to move.  You have children going to college soon, and we don't know where this economy is going.  Most people are holding off on huge items like this waiting for things to settle down a bit. I'm on your side here, but your passive aggressive deal with how she can do all the work..and I will sign the papers...she can get a second to pay for it as well...blah blah blah?  Can I say major ICK VILLE!  That is not very discerning of you - you have to admit!

Now it would be different if you both had been talking about this for years, and it was a goal.  That is something you can plan for years ahead of time.  For myself?  I would wait until the kids are done with school.  People are losing jobs left and right because of all kinds of crazy things.  Some the companies faults, and some just plain aren't!

Companies can be strong as a brick, and something can crack that foundation.  Times change, and so do economic circumstances.  For example, when Social Security started it was the purpose of people having decent incomes in later years.  Thing is most people realize you need to plan above and beyond social security.  Its hard to make it on that alone.  Sounds like you are planner - a prepare r, etc.  That's an asset to be sure.  How about starting with college costs - economy upheaval - retirement planning, because its reality.  Don't play the games.  It hasn't work so far has it?  You have so much going for you.  Don't blow it that way.

Namecalling was mentioned, and it mostly falls on her.  I also get the impression she tends to fly off the handle.  Both of those things are unacceptable.  Some state if she is calling you names she is feeling insecure about something.  That's all find and good, but its just an excuse.  Its a bad habit, and it causes resentment - and shows a lack of respect.  That respect I speak of is a human respect - not  a gender role characteristic.  Yes, she needs to get a grip on that.  She also needs to apologize and show she can move past this trait.  Its won't be easy, but if she truly wants the relationship to last?  She will place in the effort forward.  You won't get anywhere in relationship acting like this no matter WHO you are, and WHAT the circumstance.  It just won't work.

I have to mention though some of the items you mentioned like kissing her feet?  That's condescending.  lol I will admit I would be tempted to fly off the handle if my husband EVER did that to make a point.  In Jest?  Sure I would laugh along with the joke.  The way you describe her rages you are lucky you still have teeth!   I'm not kidding here.

You have some assets sir, but you do tend to be condescending which maybe feeding her just a tad.  You also seem to be passive aggressive from your descriptions. 

QuoteThis is why a lot of men really don't seem care about a lot of things that are important to women.  They really don't get it, and they almost can't.  They don't even try, but that doesn't mean they don't care.

Caring is trying to understand the other.  Its the same the other way around.  Don't you do that with your kids or employees?  You seem very intelligent - so USE it!  Seriouly!  I know its IN THERE!

Lets take your 'house' situation.  Okay. I realize she wants to move.  You don't.  What about talking about an agreed budget for a renovation of part of the house.  YES, I realize its still spending money.  Its cheaper than moving, and it can be just as exciting.  For example, I know you always HATED the kitchen cabinet.  How about we look into refacing them?  I realize you hate the carpet could we maybe look into hardwood to replace it?  Keep in mind some redecorating will happens as well.  Just agree on a budget, and then allow her to do it her way.  Yes, throw it past you of course.  Just remember your attitude here - you are attempting a compromise on your 'no moving' stand.  Remember (for your preparation, planner side) In certain circumstances it could increase the your home's value, or help it get sold quicker when the time comes.  That's a savings.  Meanwhile, she is in the home but it looks upgraded because IT IS!  You both give a little, and you both win.  You get to stay, but have to spend some money.  She can't move, but her house now looks awesome.

That sir is called trying to care.  You need to be nice about stating you want to be financially responsible during this time.  That is what your point you wanted to make anyway it seemed to me.  Totally understandable.  You both ALSO have retirement to think about.  She can understand this important aspect of your personality if you approach it differently.  If she gets wound up?  NICELY inform her that you will be willing to continue when she calms down.  That boundary is perfectly acceptable.  lol and stop kissing the feet!

I remember a time when my father wanted to move from their home after we were both out (brother and I).  Mom didn't want to.  There was too much up in the air during this time in their lifes, because they were dealing with elderly parents.  On top of that they were 1,000 miles away, and needed to be moved to where the folks were.  Mom understood they could use a smaller place, but just NOT NOW!  No doubt Dad was disappointed, but he got the point.  He also realizes she was right about the amount on their plates at this time.  He also acknowledged  it could be YEARS before that smaller place happened.  Dad died before they got their smaller place, but it a was goal they made if he had lived.  Matter of fact during his illness SHE hinted that a smaller place maybe easier for him since he was dying, and the home had alot of stairs.  lol this time DAD didn't want to move!  It was too overwhelming for him.  Mom accepted it.  She did look into the chairs that glide up the stairs so he didn't have to walk them...lol Dad didn't want that either.  The subject was dropped, and he made sure SHE knew he appreciated her suggestion.

You see there doesn't' have to be this driver's seat fight going on if you both TRIED to see the other's point of view, and attempt something that would be asset to both.  Again I can clearly see you have the intelligence to do this.  You both aren't placing the effort into it. 

Someone mentioned women like to hear things in order to feel loved, or something along those lines.  Then I read something about throwing women a little hot air to make them happy.  That is condescending and disrespectful thing to say.  Let me tell you if my husband attempted some 'words to make me feel loved' with an attitude of throwing me hot air?  Your guaranteed the hot air words won't do much for me.  Those types of descriptions don't show 'caring' either, and lol please don't tell me men don't get that.  They aren't that dumb, and everyone knows this!  It was said as insult or dig, and attitude is the key issue here on both sides.  You both have lousy attitudes at this point.  You both won that award - no offense.

You need to stop being condescending, because its it pushing her buttons.  Honestly?  I think you know that.  She needs to deal with you as a SALESPERSON would if they had a condescending customer if you can't find a way to stop.  Her rage sessions are just making the dynamic worse.  I have been in sales as well, and there are ways of dealing with this personality type.  It would stop the raging at you, but I don't' know how far your relationship would get.

You both need to learn to start to love and respect each other.  Neither of you seem to be capable of this right now.  Its a shame because you both have so much history, a solid financial future, and it wouldn't kill both of you to pull up the boot straps up.  You both would benefit greatly.

QuoteI would first off recommend to stop allowing your wife to manipulate you into anything with any kind of disparaging or disaproving remarks whatsoever. In fact just the reverse is called for. If there is a nickname that she doesn't like...IE: Catty instead of Catherine...that is exactly the sort of thing that I would definitely start using regularly when addressing her. Get her off balance and out of the driver's seat. Sure she may claim that she follows your lead but words ain't actions. And using a nickname that she doesn't like is the start of it all. (she will grow to like it soon enough) If you make dinner be sure it is something that you like and she doesn't. (just a few times) But add a dessert or side dish that she will love when you do that.

OH MY GOODNESS!  lol are you serious John?  God states we should treat others as we would wish to be treated.  If your name was Charles, and you didn't like nicknames?  Then people started to call you Chuck or Charlie and didn't stop?  No doubt you would get used to it, but how high would that respect level be for them be?  TALK about button pushing!  Being a sinner myself? (laughs) I would be tempted to not acknowledge the person until they could get the name right.  That would be my way of LOVING you back...feeling it yet? (laughs again)

Until they can both admit they are acting like poopheads at times your desert theory will also blow up in his face.  The point would be lost, and talk about a new kind of fight here.  Playing games has never been gender exclusive!  Admit it - it is a game!

I pray that you both get it together.  What an example you would both make if you could.   You both are playing off each other, and it needs to stop.  Neither of you are doing things in a way to show your love and respect that all of us need as humans. 

The attitude is key.  You can do things that are asked of you, but if you do them with the wrong attitude?  That clanging GONG from scripture comes to mind.  Its similar to the attitude God asks about tithes or offerings.  He wishes you to give because it came from your heart to give - not because you feel you have to - or need to.  Your heart  - he wants you to give with your heart.  Its the same here.  I hope you both find a way.  No doubt you both are capable.  I pray that you try, and find a decent counselor to help.  You both have so much going for you, and I KNOW you can do this!

(praying)

Manna for Hannah!

Thank God I dont have a husband who thinks its loving or respectful to call me by a name that I dont like.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 01:07:54
Thank God I dont have a husband who thinks its loving or respectful to call me by a name that I dont like.

Why would anyone do that to another person?  Wouldn't that be considered provoking? 

The best way to get respect, is to be respectful.  Treat others the way we would like to be treated...calling someone something you know hurts or offends them is the polar oposite of this and so backward...I can't imagine purposing myself to do this to someone I love no matter how rude they were being and seemed to "deserve it". 

I'm still checking back, hoping somebody comes up something that might work.  What I see is that most people on the thread are very close to the middle.  The egalitarians mostly being women (or liberal men) and the complimentarians mostly being men (or conservative women).  But in reality on a scale of 10 with zero being one side and 10 being the other, not many seem to be more than 1 point from the center. That 1 point isn't very much, unless it's what stands between you and your spouse.

I'm a complimentarian who is about 1/4 point off the middle, but I'm not budging.  I truly believe it is God's way.  Too many things in nature, psychology, sociology, logic, tradition, experience, and of course the Bible lead, point, and support that view.

Being that close to the middle means I understand how difficult it must be for a women to see her relationship from that point of view, especially having been raised the American way.  I don't know how else to put it.  America has a lot going for it, but it's current trend seems to be towards a self-destructing society.  Anyway, I know it has to be hard.  But doing the right thing is usually not the easy one.

Bill Hybel wrote a book, and while I can't say I "buy into" all of it, one part was about how to "test" discernment.  I can't remember all of it, but the one thing that really stuck in my head was that one of his tests was to question what you thought God may be wanting of you with, "Is it convenient?"

It's not convenient for her to submit, it's not convenient for me to fight, and experince has taught me that submitting to her against my better judgement/discernment is a bad idea for everyone.  Given the potential outcome, submitting to my wife might be the most convenient path, but I am not getting that "message".  It definetely passes the test of not being convenient.

Here's another example/story.  After what we'll call "her mistake" we're laying in bed and she say's "You shouldn't give up on me when you know your right."  I said, "What do you mean?"  "Well, when you know your right, you shouldn't give up on me.  You should keep fighting."  I think she might have mixed in something about "If you really loved loved me you wouldn't give up on me" or some crazy nonsense like that.  So,...it's all my fault,.... again,.... because I'm not enough of an "asshole" to keep fighting?  Oh,...and somehow, this is proof that I don't Love her?  I am obviously a neanderthal, anyone with half a brain can understand this.

I am not going to submit, and I am done fighting.  The eventual outcome is catastophically inconvenient.  I'm still praying.

By the way Lively Stone, I think you and Eve should get together and share some fruit.  The Bible tells us that it is very good for gaining wisdom.  Sorry, but I don't want anyone here to think I'm listening to you.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 11:48:13
I'm still checking back, hoping somebody comes up something that might work.  What I see is that most people on the thread are very close to the middle.  The egalitarians mostly being women (or liberal men) and the complimentarians mostly being men (or conservative women).  But in reality on a scale of 10 with zero being one side and 10 being the other, not many seem to be more than 1 point from the center. That 1 point isn't very much, unless it's what stands between you and your spouse.

I'm a complimentarian who is about 1/4 point off the middle, but I'm not budging.  I truly believe it is God's way.  Too many things in nature, psychology, sociology, logic, tradition, experience, and of course the Bible lead, point, and support that view.

Being that close to the middle means I understand how difficult it must be for a women to see her relationship from that point of view, especially having been raised the American way.  I don't know how else to put it.  America has a lot going for it, but it's current trend seems to be towards a self-destructing society.  Anyway, I know it has to be hard.  But doing the right thing is usually not the easy one.

Bill Hybel wrote a book, and while I can't say I "buy into" all of it, one part was about how to "test" discernment.  I can't remember all of it, but the one thing that really stuck in my head was that one of his tests was to question what you thought God may be wanting of you with, "Is it convenient?"

It's not convenient for her to submit, it's not convenient for me to fight, and experince has taught me that submitting to her against my better judgement/discernment is a bad idea for everyone.  Given the potential outcome, submitting to my wife might be the most convenient path, but I am not getting that "message".  It definetely passes the test of not being convenient.

Here's another example/story.  After what we'll call "her mistake" we're laying in bed and she say's "You shouldn't give up on me when you know your right."  I said, "What do you mean?"  "Well, when you know your right, you shouldn't give up on me.  You should keep fighting."  I think she might have mixed in something about "If you really loved loved me you wouldn't give up on me" or some crazy nonsense like that.  So,...it's all my fault,.... again,.... because I'm not enough of an "asshole" to keep fighting?  Oh,...and somehow, this is proof that I don't Love her?  I am obviously a neanderthal, anyone with half a brain can understand this.

I am not going to submit, and I am done fighting.  The eventual outcome is catastophically inconvenient.  I'm still praying.

By the way Lively Stone, I think you and Eve should get together and share some fruit.  The Bible tells us that it is very good for gaining wisdom.  Sorry, but I don't want anyone here to think I'm listening to you.

Her attitude sounds just all-around absolutely awful. Just absolutely awful and yes very modern American. In a sane world that would be recognized as crazy.

That's great to see you standing firm.

Quote
experince has taught me that submitting to her against my better judgement/discernment is a bad idea for everyone

Good call.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 11:48:13
Here's another example/story.  After what we'll call "her mistake" we're laying in bed and she say's "You shouldn't give up on me when you know your right."  I said, "What do you mean?"  "Well, when you know your right, you shouldn't give up on me.  You should keep fighting."  I think she might have mixed in something about "If you really loved loved me you wouldn't give up on me" or some crazy nonsense like that.  So,...it's all my fault,.... again,.... because I'm not enough of an "asshole" to keep fighting?  Oh,...and somehow, this is proof that I don't Love her?  I am obviously a neanderthal, anyone with half a brain can understand this.

UGH! NO, that "mistake" wasn't your fault and I am sorry she deflected the "shoulda wouldas" on you.  When we make a mistake, it is the mature thing to say "I was wrong and I am sorry I didn't listen to you. Please forgive me."  There have been lots of times both my dh and I have had to say that to each other.  No one is perfect and mistakes are going to be made, but we really should humble ourselves, admit the mistake and apologize...and the "right" one should be quick to forgive and refrain from the smug "I tolyou soooo's"!!!

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 11:48:13By the way Lively Stone, I think you and Eve should get together and share some fruit.  The Bible tells us that it is very good for gaining wisdom.  Sorry, but I don't want anyone here to think I'm listening to you.

UGH again.  Everyone knows how you feel...please try and quit the rude posts to someone you aren't listening to anyway.  What's the point of doing that if not to just be rude? 

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 12:03:16

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 11:48:13
Here's another example/story.  After what we'll call "her mistake" we're laying in bed and she say's "You shouldn't give up on me when you know your right."  I said, "What do you mean?"  "Well, when you know your right, you shouldn't give up on me.  You should keep fighting."  I think she might have mixed in something about "If you really loved loved me you wouldn't give up on me" or some crazy nonsense like that.  So,...it's all my fault,.... again,.... because I'm not enough of an "asshole" to keep fighting?  Oh,...and somehow, this is proof that I don't Love her?  I am obviously a neanderthal, anyone with half a brain can understand this.

UGH! NO, that "mistake" wasn't your fault and I am sorry she deflected the "shoulda wouldas" on you.  When we make a mistake, it is the mature thing to say "I was wrong and I am sorry I didn't listen to you. Please forgive me."  There have been lots of times both my dh and I have had to say that to each other.  No one is perfect and mistakes are going to be made, but we really should humble ourselves, admit the mistake and apologize...and the "right" one should be quick to forgive and refrain from the smug "I tolyou soooo's"!!!

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 11:48:13By the way Lively Stone, I think you and Eve should get together and share some fruit.  The Bible tells us that it is very good for gaining wisdom.  Sorry, but I don't want anyone here to think I'm listening to you.

UGH again.  Everyone knows how you feel...please try and quit the rude posts to someone you aren't listening to anyway.  What's the point of doing that if not to just be rude? 

Your right, maybe it's the moving butterfly and the pig.  It's just that:

1) Earlier on she more or less told me I didn't belong here.

2) She is definetely not close enough to the center for her input to help in my situation.

Fundamentally, I think now that the "bandwidth" of the discussion has been set, she should be able to see that I'm not really open to her point of view.  Her posts aren't really helpful, they're not going to solve my dilema.  They're more like fun filled little "pokes".  Most people "poke", because they like to be "poked" back.  I'm the perfect one to poke.  It doesn't bother me to getted poked, or to poke back.  I'm a man, remember.

OK, I'll stop.

Well LS is one of the few people answering who has had a very long and happy marriage. In the UK we have a saying and it is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 11:48:13
By the way Lively Stone, I think you and Eve should get together and share some fruit.  The Bible tells us that it is very good for gaining wisdom.  Sorry, but I don't want anyone here to think I'm listening to you.

Thanks so much for the lovely words of kindness, there! 



Listen to God. His way is best. Love her like Jesus.

Ephesians 5:21-33

Spirit-Guided Relationships: Wives and Husbands

21 And further, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 For wives, this means submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of his body, the church. 24 As the church submits to Christ, so you wives should submit to your husbands in everything.

25 For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church. He gave up his life for her 26 to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God's word. 27 He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault. 28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself. 29 No one hates his own body but feeds and cares for it, just as Christ cares for the church. 30 And we are members of his body.

31 As the Scriptures say, "A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one." 32 This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one. 33 So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.


.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 13:34:38
Well LS is one of the few people answering who has had a very long and happy marriage. In the UK we have a saying and it is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"

Thank you, my dear!

I love my pudding and the way hubby makes it, too! 

Love Her Like Jesus

http://youtu.be/fuAxzEuzNGg

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 13:34:38
Well LS is one of the few people answering who has had a very long and happy marriage. In the UK we have a saying and it is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"

I'm happy that she has a great marriage, but she has been asked to leave to him basically...and she hasn't.  I don't want to start a war here, but I do think it would be best if she left this thread alone.  It could be seen as instigating, and I'm sure she doesn't intend this.

I personally would leave him alone per his request - at least for the season here.  She may have great things to offer, but in this case it may fall on deaf ears.  lol as we say here in the USA.

Quote from: HannahT on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 15:07:22

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 13:34:38
Well LS is one of the few people answering who has had a very long and happy marriage. In the UK we have a saying and it is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"

I'm happy that she has a great marriage, but she has been asked to leave to him basically...and she hasn't.  I don't want to start a war here, but I do think it would be best if she left this thread alone.  It could be seen as instigating, and I'm sure she doesn't intend this.

I personally would leave him alone per his request - at least for the season here.  She may have great things to offer, but in this case it may fall on deaf ears.  lol as we say here in the USA.

No one has the right to tell anyone to leave a thread.

If a person wants to turn a deaf ear, let him. but there are many others who read these threads who would benefit from reading what most here have to say. would you much rather the advice come from the poster who is all about polygamy? How about the poster who has very harsh opinions about women in general and makes no bones about it?

There is room for everyone.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 13:34:38
Well LS is one of the few people answering who has had a very long and happy marriage. In the UK we have a saying and it is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"

I've seen a lot of long lasting marriages where the man just rules the house, the women rules the house, and where they actually do get along.  In Lively Stone's initial posts she seemed proud of mentioning that her husband didn't really have a problem defering to her on most things.

My father-in-law once said, "I didn't raise those kids, XXXXX raised them.  I was working.  I've always had a company car and she runs the house.  I don't make any decisions, she does.  She buys the groceries, pays the bills, buys my clothes, picks out my ties.  The only thing I have is the set of golf clubs in my trunk, and she picked them out and bought them for me last Christmas."  He was close to 70 at the time.  Then he said, "Yep, those race horses can cost you."  They're coming up on 50 years of marriage, and I'm sure she is very happy.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 15:31:54

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 13:34:38
Well LS is one of the few people answering who has had a very long and happy marriage. In the UK we have a saying and it is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"

I've seen a lot of long lasting marriages where the man just rules the house, the women rules the house, and where they actually do get along.  In Lively Stone's initial posts she seemed proud of mentioning that her husband didn't really have a problem defering to her on most things.

In a great marriage based on Jesus being the central member of the family, both husband and wife should be proud of the way that they both defer to one another, in compliance with God's word that instructs us to submit to one another.

I am more than pleased that my husband is a plodder and is careful and cautious making decisions. He is proud of me that the Lord has blessed me with wisdom and insight, and has no problem making a quick decision---all prayed up, of course. I don't mind waiting on his decisions and he quite likes getting quick feedback before he makes one. We both pray together about things and allow the Lord to lead us.

We have made mistakes in the beginning, while learning ways to enmesh our traits, but through the hardships, we grew to understand our respective strengths and weaknesses and so now at 37 years this January, we have been able to deal with those weaknesses and not allow them to hinder us. I love my husband with his strengths and weaknesses and he loves me and mine.

Everyone here is allowed to contribute, and anyone is free to ignore any posts they do not wish to see. Its very simple.
Not everyone will agree, but thats life.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 15:31:54

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Dec 11, 2012 - 13:34:38
Well LS is one of the few people answering who has had a very long and happy marriage. In the UK we have a saying and it is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"

I've seen a lot of long lasting marriages where the man just rules the house, the women rules the house, and where they actually do get along.  In Lively Stone's initial posts she seemed proud of mentioning that her husband didn't really have a problem defering to her on most things.

My father-in-law once said, "I didn't raise those kids, XXXXX raised them.  I was working.  I've always had a company car and she runs the house.  I don't make any decisions, she does.  She buys the groceries, pays the bills, buys my clothes, picks out my ties.  The only thing I have is the set of golf clubs in my trunk, and she picked them out and bought them for me last Christmas."  He was close to 70 at the time.  Then he said, "Yep, those race horses can cost you."  They're coming up on 50 years of marriage, and I'm sure she is very happy.

What works for one marriage doesnt work for another. We all have different characters and personalities, and we all find what works for us as a couple.

IF your father in law wasnt happy, then why oh why didnt he do anything about it?? He has no one to blame but himself. After all he has had enough time hasnt he, and some men just cant be bothered to try and put things right. I have no sympathy for such men.


Likening his wife to a race horse just shows the bad attidude that he has towrds her.I hope that he isnt a Christian with an attitude like that.

Boy I am realising more than ever what a godly and amazing husband that I have, who always treats me with the utmost love and respect.