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I'm trying to save my marriage of almost 10 years, please help!

My husband had a full time music job when we were engaged, but we decided he would leave it so we could marry and live together in my country. Ever since we got married he hasn't found a stable job in his profession.

Right now he takes care of the kids (not in school yet) during the day while I work of which I am extremely thankful for. He gives lessons to a few kids throughout the week and plays gigs occasionally, but he has plenty of free time. He used to be passionate about finding a stable music job but with the years of no luck he's no longer trying. He's become complacent with me as the main breadwinner and him working part-time a few hours a week.

While I like working, I can't come to terms with having a stay at home husband who has no career or financial goals. I met him when I was young and vulnerable and he comforted me and helped me get over my troubles which I truly thank him for, but now I am worried about our financial future. I see friends/relatives married to men earning a lot of money for their families and can't help but think I was stupid for marrying young, and choosing love over other things like a more stable financial partner.

In the past I tried countless times to get him to consider other professions or working doing other things and it did not work. We'd always end up arguing. I also prayed and prayed so hard but when nothing changed it just HURT SO BAD INSIDE. Eventually I lost faith in asking and also praying. I ignored our reality, still loved him and we decided to have kids. Now I am coming back to my reality...

I've held my discontent inside with him not having a stable job for so long and now I'm afraid of it leading to a separation eventually. In his complacency, it seems as though he doesn't see anything wrong with our situation. It's nice that he stays home with the kids but I would pay a babysitter or my mom could watch them for free, so that's not an issue.

I definitely care for us and would like to do something to save what we have. However I just don't have much faith in anything working because nothing worked in the past, and I truly tried hard, til I just couldn't anymore. I don't know how to bring this up to him or where to start. PLEASE HELP!

God bless!

hi jsm I can understand totally how you feel. In a profession such as music, its rare that there will be much of an income, and really he should have looked for full time work and just played in the band in his spare time.
ON the other hand I am a great believer in parents looking after their own children, and in some marriages it can work with the man as the stay at home parent. I dont know how much child care costs there, but in the UK paying for child care for two children means that its often just not  financially worth both parents working.   
They are still very young to be left wth others, and even if your mum is willing, it is fair for her to have them all day 5 days a week?

Could you perhaps come to an agreement that when the oldest starts school he will seek full time work?

It maybe that some good Christian counselling may help you both work this out.

Two ideas, and you probably need both.

1.  Financial Peace University - a class to teach financial principles - by Dave Ramsey
2.  Marriage Counselng - need to talk about goals and compromise and resentment

Chosen One - Thank you for the reply. A full-time or even stable part-time job when the kids are in school sounds like a good idea to me. See my problem below...

John Doo - Thanks for the reply too. I actually read a famous Dave Ramsey book and I definitely like his financial teachings. The marriage counseling sounds like a good idea as well, but here's my problem...

HERE'S MY PROBLEM: Bringing this subject up and talking about is really hard - I get choked up just thinking about it.  I built resentment after numerous conversations leading to arguments and all the prayers which led to no changes to our situation. I know I have to disconnect my feelings and handle this with my head instead, but easier said than done.

Any tips for getting strong to start handle these conversations again? PLEASE HELP!

Thats why counselling will help, as you will be in a controlled place with a third party to guide the time.

Chosenone seems to offer the best advice, so far, but I'd like to add a couple of things to it.  Your husband wants to be a musician.  You'd like to see some income.  Maybe you could be on the lookout for some bands with guys in similar situations to what you might like for your husband:  they have regular jobs to provide some needed steady income, but they play gigs once or twice a week to provide a release for their artistic passion.  It could mean alot to him and help him be an easy dog to hunt with if, when he's playing, he's realizing you helped him find this band and/or this gig. 

Well . . . I'm a single guy, raised as a musician. I have a few students who have stuck with me for years and likewise I do the occasional gig as a professional instrumentalist.

Here's the upshot: if your husband is a truly capable musician, chances are he's smart enough to do just about ANYTHING else (at least with competence). It takes about ten times the effort (mentally and physically) and time to make a tenth of the living as a great deal of other professions out there. Many professional musicians have primary careers that are really just secondary abilities compared to the dedication that it takes to be a competent instrumentalist. I've been studying programming for the last couple of years and now I'm working on a Master's in computer science. It's a pain, and it's kind of an insult--I mean in king David's day musicians were not required to do anything besides practice their instruments, as that's just how hardcore that job really is--but I'm enjoying programming in many ways. Your husband has probably exerted plenty of effort with his skill, so you might consider showing some compassion for the fact that it's just a matter of working with the realities of supply-and-demand in the economy right now.

This sounds like a problem with cultural expectations for men vs. women.  I made a few tiny little changes to your post.  Try re-reading it.  What advice would you give this person?

QuoteI'm trying to save my marriage of almost 10 years, please help!

My wife had a full time music job when we were engaged, but we decided she would leave it so we could marry and live together in my country. Ever since we got married she hasn't found a stable job in his profession.

Right now she takes care of the kids (not in school yet) during the day while I work of which I am extremely thankful for.  She gives lessons to a few kids throughout the week and plays gigs occasionally, but she has plenty of free time. She used to be passionate about finding a stable music job but with the years of no luck she's no longer trying. She's become complacent with me as the main breadwinner and him working part-time a few hours a week.

While I like working, I can't come to terms with having a stay at home husband who has no career or financial goals. I met him when I was young and vulnerable and she comforted me and helped me get over my troubles which I truly thank him for, but now I am worried about our financial future. I see friends/relatives married to men earning a lot of money for their families and can't help but think I was stupid for marrying young, and choosing love over other things like a more stable financial partner.

In the past I tried countless times to get him to consider other professions or working doing other things and it did not work. We'd always end up arguing. I also prayed and prayed so hard but when nothing changed it just HURT SO BAD INSIDE. Eventually I lost faith in asking and also praying. I ignored our reality, still loved him and we decided to have kids. Now I am coming back to my reality...

I've held my discontent inside with him not having a stable job for so long and now I'm afraid of it leading to a separation eventually. In his complacency, it seems as though she doesn't see anything wrong with our situation. It's nice that she stays home with the kids but I would pay a babysitter or my mom could watch them for free, so that's not an issue.

I definitely care for us and would like to do something to save what we have. However I just don't have much faith in anything working because nothing worked in the past, and I truly tried hard, til I just couldn't anymore. I don't know how to bring this up to him or where to start. PLEASE HELP!

God bless!

^Yeah, I was tempted to jump on the gender issue as well (like male=piece-of-meat). Marrying someone (male or female) for his or her money-earning abilities is a very worldly approach . . . to put it in the mildest way possible. At worst, I'd call doing so very cowardly. I think it's best to be united in terms of cause--i.e. I think a woman should be attracted to a man because of his central cause (of course, as a servant of God), then by the means by which he does so (since she's going to be his "helper" in the way he serves the Lord, not trying to CHANGE the way he does so).

Quote from: Cally on Tue Feb 26, 2013 - 13:33:49
^Yeah, I was tempted to jump on the gender issue as well (like male=piece-of-meat). Marrying someone (male or female) for his or her money-earning abilities is a very worldly approach . . . to put it in the mildest way possible. At worst, I'd call doing so very cowardly. I think it's best to be united in terms of cause--i.e. I think a woman should be attracted to a man because of his central cause (of course, as a servant of God), then by the means by which he does so (since she's going to be his "helper" in the way he serves the Lord, not trying to CHANGE the way he does so).

I understand what you are talking about Cally. I definitely married out of love and trust. I didn't think or want my husband to make millions, but I did expect him to do the best he could with his abilities to provide for me and the children God gave us. He did try in the beginning but things just did not happen for some reason and somewhere along the line we stopped talking about it. That's I was hoping I would get advise on talking about this again with my husband and seeing if there is anything we can do to work out our finances. I am blessed to be able to provide for my family, but it's an enormous pressure to bear alone. What would happen if I lost my job, for example? I think income is a shared responsibility unless both spouses decide otherwise or there is a health/handicap issue that prevents it from happening.

Quote from: Cally on Tue Feb 26, 2013 - 11:03:01
Well . . . I'm a single guy, raised as a musician. I have a few students who have stuck with me for years and likewise I do the occasional gig as a professional instrumentalist.

Nice hearing from another musician. I can relate to the bad economy but this situation goes back years through different economies. I think you did a good thing by learning something else and I think that may be a possibility for my husband if he found something that may interest him.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Feb 26, 2013 - 13:15:58
This sounds like a problem with cultural expectations for men vs. women.  I made a few tiny little changes to your post.  Try re-reading it.  What advice would you give this person?

I see your point Wycliffes and I agree. I think in part I fight with expectations I was brought up with that men should provide for their families. Even without you changing my message sometimes I say to myself well, if it was the other way around how would I feel. Definitely an interesting point!

Quote from: jsm2002 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 - 14:18:21

Quote from: Cally on Tue Feb 26, 2013 - 13:33:49
^Yeah, I was tempted to jump on the gender issue as well (like male=piece-of-meat). Marrying someone (male or female) for his or her money-earning abilities is a very worldly approach . . . to put it in the mildest way possible. At worst, I'd call doing so very cowardly. I think it's best to be united in terms of cause--i.e. I think a woman should be attracted to a man because of his central cause (of course, as a servant of God), then by the means by which he does so (since she's going to be his "helper" in the way he serves the Lord, not trying to CHANGE the way he does so).

I understand what you are talking about Cally. I definitely married out of love and trust. I didn't think or want my husband to make millions, but I did expect him to do the best he could with his abilities to provide for me and the children God gave us. He did try in the beginning but things just did not happen for some reason and somewhere along the line we stopped talking about it. That's I was hoping I would get advise on talking about this again with my husband and seeing if there is anything we can do to work out our finances. I am blessed to be able to provide for my family, but it's an enormous pressure to bear alone. What would happen if I lost my job, for example? I think income is a shared responsibility unless both spouses decide otherwise or there is a health/handicap issue that prevents it from happening.

You said he had a full-time job as a musician which he left to be with you. I'm kind of curious what that full-time job actually was . . . honestly I would question a man doing something like that for a wife because of the exact kind of phenomenon we're seeing here: the wife resents her husband for seeming to lack that drive and goal-oriented spirit. He gave up his job for you, and lo and behold, now he's not motivated enough to go out and go do.

In my opinion, there's something major to be fixed in this attitude. Once again, I believe that Eve was created to be Adam's helper (man was not made for woman, but woman for man) and not vice-versa. I find it disturbing when a man's effectiveness gets compromised because this gets backwards. BUT, I do think a woman can be a "helper" for a man's God-given role on the Earth in terms of providing finances, despite the wprldly cliche that men are supposed to be the breadwinners.

"Making it" is a different issue. Yes, you need to be fed, and he needs to do what he can to feed you as far as he is possibly able as he does for himself--though it doesn't exactly seem to be a dire problem at this point (tends not to be, this day in age, such a necessarily male role anymore). It's good for a musician (despite the injustice that it is) to have a back-up skill that's actually in demand. In my case, again, I'm working on a computer science degree which is about as marketable as you can get, and I kind of doubt that that or almost any other field is too hard on a musician's innate aptitudes either.

Quote from: jsm2002 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 - 14:21:20

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Feb 26, 2013 - 13:15:58
This sounds like a problem with cultural expectations for men vs. women.  I made a few tiny little changes to your post.  Try re-reading it.  What advice would you give this person?

I see your point Wycliffes and I agree. I think in part I fight with expectations I was brought up with that men should provide for their families. Even without you changing my message sometimes I say to myself well, if it was the other way around how would I feel. Definitely an interesting point!

As I said before, in a small number of marriages it does seem to work wth the man at home, and thats fine if both are happy with that.  However, Biblically I cant see where it suggests that the man is to be the homemaker.
Where I live in th UK, housing is so very expensive, that the majority of couples both have to work, even after children, so be very thankful that you can manage on one wage.

Quote
You said he had a full-time job as a musician which he left to be with you. I'm kind of curious what that full-time job actually was . . . honestly I would question a man doing something like that for a wife because of the exact kind of phenomenon we're seeing here: the wife resents her husband for seeming to lack that drive and goal-oriented spirit. He gave up his job for you, and lo and behold, now he's not motivated enough to go out and go do.

I'm not sure I completely agree with you Cally, but I respect your opinion. You've made me think beyond my original thoughts/issues and I appreciate that. Thank you!

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Feb 26, 2013 - 14:47:13

Quote from: jsm2002 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 - 14:21:20

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Feb 26, 2013 - 13:15:58
This sounds like a problem with cultural expectations for men vs. women.  I made a few tiny little changes to your post.  Try re-reading it.  What advice would you give this person?

I see your point Wycliffes and I agree. I think in part I fight with expectations I was brought up with that men should provide for their families. Even without you changing my message sometimes I say to myself well, if it was the other way around how would I feel. Definitely an interesting point!

As I said before, in a small number of marriages it does seem to work wth the man at home, and thats fine if both are happy with that.  However, Biblically I cant see where it suggests that the man is to be the homemaker.
Where I live in th UK, housing is so very expensive, that the majority of couples both have to work, even after children, so be very thankful that you can manage on one wage.

Biblically, it's written that a man should feed his wife as he loves his own body while wives are encouraged to be "busy at home." The reality is that, this day in age, there isn't anywhere near as much superior ability for a man to earn a living than a woman. Our modern culture has been determined to see equality in the workforce, and that necessitates[/u] that many wives will be working while husbands not in the event that not everybody is able to find employment. Whether you or I agree that an equal number of men and women should be out working or not, that's the way it is--that reality needs to be accepted or the expectations on husbands will be egregious and unfair.

It may help you to go to the marriage counselor first or any counselor first to sort out your feelings.  Often the therapist will validate
your feelings as being legitimate, common feelings that one in your circumstance would go through.

Your husband may be passive or passive/aggressive or just lazy.  Even if a couple chooses to have the husband be a stay-at-home dad,
It still doesn't seem appropriate that he is detached from the financial realities that you are experiencing.

I want to thank you all for your replies. You have almost worked as therapy and helped me sort out my feelings. I understand my situation better, here are some key things:

1) I enjoy working and don't think I would stop even if my husband was the main breadwinner

2) I come to the conclusion it bothers me that my husband stays at home mainly because I was brought up to think that men are THE main breadwinners/support for their families and it's odd to live the other way around - BIG DISCOVERY!

3) I make enough money to pay the bills, put food on the table, and just a few basics each month. Not enough for big savings (like retirement), updates to the house (he has tons of ideas for this), and the extras they enjoy like vacation, entertainment, etc. When they ask for these things I feel bad saying no. I've managed to keep us out of debt at all costs, but money is stretched out to the limit, budget is forgotten, and we begin taunting with credit cards just a bit etc)

4) Being the sole manager of our finances is a big burden. It would alleviate things a bit if my husband earned more money than he does currently and I didn't have all the pressure on me to make miracles with my salary.

Now that I've figured this out. What are my next steps? Do you think it's worth working on a clear picture of our finances and approaching my husband from that angle to see what he is willing to do? How?

-----
Also - How do I overcome the MAN as breadwinner preconception?!

Quote from: jsm2002 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 - 09:52:38

Now that I've figured this out. What are my next steps? Do you think it's worth working on a clear picture of our finances and approaching my husband from that angle to see what he is willing to do? How?

I think the meek and mild approach is in order, most likely. It's an incredibly rude revelation to realize that the sheer amount of work and effort (of the sort that goes into being a competent musician) isn't good enough. Like I said, I often get kicks out of programming, but unfortunately when the buzz out there is that "work hard enough and you'll make it" lies get under my skin, it can make me real upset to feel accused of not working hard enough (on many levels).

But what the heck, why not just be Mr. Perfect and enjoy the challenge? Branching out and learning a new skill can still add to making more of a well-rounded individual--and we can put our experiences into our art. If he's a musician to the core, though, I hope you can still encourage that and support that as his dreams.

I don't know what goes through his head or not, but the reality check (to me, at least) is that "making it" just is not a factor of how hard you work whatsoever and musicians/artists have to figure that out more than anybody. So with the reality check, with all the other feelings aside, hopefully he can face those facts. Dunno if that helps . . . but it may just be things to keep in mind when you're appealing based on the need for help with the burdens and for safety.

God bless.

Quote from: Cally on Wed Feb 27, 2013 - 10:20:29
I don't know what goes through his head or not, but the reality check (to me, at least) is that "making it" just is not a factor of how hard you work whatsoever and musicians/artists have to figure that out more than anybody. So with the reality check, with all the other feelings aside, hopefully he can face those facts. Dunno if that helps . . . but it may just be things to keep in mind when you're appealing based on the need for help with the burdens and for safety.

Thanks again for the musician point of view. He is a professional with a graduate degree and I do see what you say about all the effort not being compensated. I think he just needs to realize that we need help and that he has to be open to doing other things. It could be within the music field but may need to be outside also. I also need lessons on motivation and encouragement. I've held this grudge on him not providing for so long that talking to him about any of these topics just gets me choked up. I hope to get ideas from others on how to move forward...

I agree with what the other posters have said. I don't see an issue in modern setting where a wife can work outside (with laws and order that protect her, which wasn't historically true) the home and the husband can raise the kids while working part time is something not uncommon. Once the kids grow up, you husband can work more. Most likely, it won't be for a big income, which comes with building of a career and resume for decades. Reversed to have the wife raising the kids and then working a lower paying job is probably the norm.

I think the issue is not with the situation, but with your view on it. If you hold a grudge or unhappiness to your situation, that's a large part of where this fighting is coming from.

I think your husband could probably be looking harder for a job, but having been in that situation, finding motivation when you have failed for years at it is very difficult. He also is doing a ton of work with the kids, so putting often fruitless effort into finding a job so someone else can take a bigger role in your children's lives is not something he is going to be driven to do.

The issue here is THE GRUDGE not the situation. You not forgiving your husband for what has transpired. Although your situation isn't what you ideally want, you aren't starving. The non-forgiveness and not finding something you agree with has caused these issues. It doesn't sound like the financial part of this is the issue. I think a large portion of this issue is you, and figuring that part out is key in solving this unhappiness.

You may want to go to your husband and say something like "I have been mad about you not having a more stable job. I have held a grudge against you for that. Please forgive me for holding the grudge as I am forgiving you for your part in this issue (not looking enough or finding something yet). I want to move on from this and be happy. Lets come to a compromise on when you can work (perhaps after the kids grow up or something else), so we can be in agreement and my mind is more at ease about this."

If you are looking for more support, talk with a pastor, counselor, or find books on forgiving and relationships.

Blessings

Quote from: anx on Wed Feb 27, 2013 - 12:01:14
The issue here is THE GRUDGE not the situation. You not forgiving your husband for what has transpired. Although your situation isn't what you ideally want, you aren't starving. The non-forgiveness and not finding something you agree with has caused these issues. It doesn't sound like the financial part of this is the issue. I think a large portion of this issue is you, and figuring that part out is key in solving this unhappiness.

Anx, I'm crying after reading your message because you are absolutely right. Throughout the years, pretty much all the time we've been married, I've built up this mass of secret unhappiness with him being a musician, with him not looking hard enough for jobs, for him not considering another profession and (in my eyes) putting an instrument before me. Also with myself for choosing a supposed wrong spouse.

I haven't been able to say this to anybody all this time. It's a relief to let it come out.

I'm so glad to have found this forum/website...and that God put all of you in my path. I'm still crying but it's a good cry...

I would add something from my own story, which is posted here.

My wife was separated from me twice for the total of a year. We went to counseling and figured out what was going wrong in communication, feelings, expectations, etc.

However, we were both hurt by what the other person did and didn't do, and forgiving the other person hasn't been easy for either of us. Things are good now, but its still easy when someone has a bad day to think back and conjure up the hurt.

Moving past the past has been difficult but doable in my own story, and isn't finished. I hope you can find your own peace, but it will not be easy or quick. Even if you completely solved the problem today, the feelings and past will creep in and attack your marriage and happiness. Figure out how to deal with those or remind yourself that the feelings are only hurtful and can't be dewelled upon.

I again suggest you find some way to get support in this. Couseling, pastor, books, someone to talk with, etc. Reading was extremely helpful for me in my own story. Find any more support you need in this next step.

Blessings

Quote from: jsm2002 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 - 12:44:19

Quote from: anx on Wed Feb 27, 2013 - 12:01:14
The issue here is THE GRUDGE not the situation. You not forgiving your husband for what has transpired. Although your situation isn't what you ideally want, you aren't starving. The non-forgiveness and not finding something you agree with has caused these issues. It doesn't sound like the financial part of this is the issue. I think a large portion of this issue is you, and figuring that part out is key in solving this unhappiness.

Anx, I'm crying after reading your message because you are absolutely right. Throughout the years, pretty much all the time we've been married, I've built up this mass of secret unhappiness with him being a musician, with him not looking hard enough for jobs, for him not considering another profession and (in my eyes) putting an instrument before me, and also with myself for choosing a supposed wrong spouse.

I haven't been able to say this to anybody all this time. It's a relief to let it come out.

I'm so glad to have found this forum/website...and that God put all of you in my path. I'm still crying but it's a good cry...

Sounds very positive. 
Have you told God about all this?
How about writing it all down, that can help sometimes.

That's great, jsm.

He HAS to have intelligence and a work ethic to do what he does, but when the slap in the face really sinks in that he may very well need to change professions to help provide for the household more, you might be able to be a big encouragement to help him endure that.

Maybe he could try to crack open some books for computer skills--that works for lots of people (you don't need school).

Blessings to you.

Musicians are in so much turmoil b/c Gods original intent for them were to be in the priesthood. They were suppose to be consecrated to God and their families as well. Also they were compensated very well by the offerings that were to take care of all temple workers. The problem is when the church was formed, many people started buying into the ideology that paying or financially supporting the priest of the house of God (men and women of God with anointed gifts for the evoking of the presence of God) was simply not logical. I live in mississippi and many people have the ideal that if they have to work 40hrs a week, then their spiritual leaders should as well. That is the main problem with our society. The reason we have some much sexual immoratility, slander, debauchery, stealing etc in the body of Christ is b/c the one's who are supposed to be consecrated unto God are treated like common people and the grace is not upon them to do so. A prime example is King David. He was a man after Gods own heart but his problem came when he was not in constant communion with the Lord. All that to say this. When you chose to marry your husband, it was a covenant made with God. Just like we are three parts in one, a marriage is too (Yahweh, Husband and Wife). Our God said he would supply all our NEEDS according to his riches and glory. He did not say he will supply all our WANTS. Many of us have to walk the walk of faith which is very uncomfortable, but it brings us to a place that is much better than we can accomplish on our own. (Jesus was considered a peasant 30 yrs of his life, not a career man.)

Interesting discussion.  This is mostly in response to diamondsp.

I have been a musician since jr high school but have always refused payment for it. When our kids were small it was important for me to have my wife as a SAHM. So I worked 55-60 hours a week in an industrial environment, and was also a church elder and worship leader.

And no, I never took a dime for my time as either elder or worship leader. Nor did I as a music teacher (bass and guitar).

While I have nothing against professional musicians (several friends are pros) it is not right for me.

So not all of us are called to be Levites.

Quote from: diamondsp on Tue Mar 19, 2013 - 09:12:02
Musicians are in so much turmoil b/c Gods original intent for them were to be in the priesthood. They were suppose to be consecrated to God and their families as well. Also they were compensated very well by the offerings that were to take care of all temple workers. The problem is when the church was formed, many people started buying into the ideology that paying or financially supporting the priest of the house of God (men and women of God with anointed gifts for the evoking of the presence of God) was simply not logical. I live in mississippi and many people have the ideal that if they have to work 40hrs a week, then their spiritual leaders should as well. That is the main problem with our society. The reason we have some much sexual immoratility, slander, debauchery, stealing etc in the body of Christ is b/c the one's who are supposed to be consecrated unto God are treated like common people and the grace is not upon them to do so. A prime example is King David. He was a man after Gods own heart but his problem came when he was not in constant communion with the Lord. All that to say this. When you chose to marry your husband, it was a covenant made with God. Just like we are three parts in one, a marriage is too (Yahweh, Husband and Wife). Our God said he would supply all our NEEDS according to his riches and glory. He did not say he will supply all our WANTS. Many of us have to walk the walk of faith which is very uncomfortable, but it brings us to a place that is much better than we can accomplish on our own. (Jesus was considered a peasant 30 yrs of his life, not a career man.)

"Don't muzzle the ox while he's treading the grain." Paul said he had the right to receive material goods for what he imparted spiritually, as what he was doing was actual work.

Attitudes towards artists can be real similar . . . like it's "food for the soul" which is something you're just not supposed to be paying for. I'm sure it's because of the issue of rampant phonies who peddle falsely for a profit, but the attitude is still really wrong.

Quote"Don't muzzle the ox while he's treading the grain."

Cally - are you saying I am wrong for refusing payment?  Yes I have spent countless hours in real work.  Let me tell you it IS real work.  Writing music. Arranging instrument parts. Teaching other musicians. Directing a choir. Leading worship.

And  - doing all the CCLI paperwork.  It is better now but 20 years ago it was a real bear.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Mar 19, 2013 - 12:11:08

Quote"Don't muzzle the ox while he's treading the grain."

Cally - are you saying I am wrong for refusing payment?  Yes I have spent countless hours in real work.  Let me tell you it IS real work.  Writing music. Arranging instrument parts. Teaching other musicians. Directing a choir. Leading worship.

And  - doing all the CCLI paperwork.  It is better now but 20 years ago it was a real bear.

Well . . . I was kind of interested in diamondsp's post mostly. Simply, I think it's wrong to "muzzle the ox while he is treading the grain."

When the one doing the muzzling is oneself?  No, I'm not accusing you. If you felt you were called to do that (just as Paul did in his case) that's your business, as it is for any others who decide to do that or any other kind of service free of charge.

I dont thnk that those in worship groups of churches should expect payment surely. Any more than people who have other gifts and abilities they use in the chuch do. 

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Mar 19, 2013 - 12:43:30
I don't think that those in worship groups of churches should expect payment surely. Any more than people who have other gifts and abilities they use in the church do.

What about the leaders who write the songs, arrange the vocals and instruments, have to interface with the pastor and board and oversee purchase of equipment (in some cases that includes all the sound equipment)?

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Mar 20, 2013 - 05:41:49

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Mar 19, 2013 - 12:43:30
I don't think that those in worship groups of churches should expect payment surely. Any more than people who have other gifts and abilities they use in the church do.

What about the leaders who write the songs, arrange the vocals and instruments, have to interface with the pastor and board and oversee purchase of equipment (in some cases that includes all the sound equipment)?

Few churches here could afford to pay the worship group leaders. IF equipment is needed and agreed by the church, then yes, they do need to pay for that. One of our worship guys does write songs in his spare time. However there are so many songs about now, that we have an amazing choice already.

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 02:00:59

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Mar 20, 2013 - 05:41:49

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Mar 19, 2013 - 12:43:30
I don't think that those in worship groups of churches should expect payment surely. Any more than people who have other gifts and abilities they use in the church do.

What about the leaders who write the songs, arrange the vocals and instruments, have to interface with the pastor and board and oversee purchase of equipment (in some cases that includes all the sound equipment)?

Few churches here could afford to pay the worship group leaders. IF equipment is needed and agreed by the church, then yes, they do need to pay for that. One of our worship guys does write songs in his spare time. However there are so many songs about now, that we have an amazing choice already.

Yikes . . . so a musician has to afford spending thousands of hours of his own time becoming an able musician, but nobody has to afford to pay him?

Quote from: Cally on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 12:01:22

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 02:00:59

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Mar 20, 2013 - 05:41:49

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Mar 19, 2013 - 12:43:30
I don't think that those in worship groups of churches should expect payment surely. Any more than people who have other gifts and abilities they use in the church do.

What about the leaders who write the songs, arrange the vocals and instruments, have to interface with the pastor and board and oversee purchase of equipment (in some cases that includes all the sound equipment)?

Few churches here could afford to pay the worship group leaders. IF equipment is needed and agreed by the church, then yes, they do need to pay for that. One of our worship guys does write songs in his spare time. However there are so many songs about now, that we have an amazing choice already.

Yikes . . . so a musician has to afford spending thousands of hours of his own time becoming an able musician, but nobody has to afford to pay him?

  Not in a worship group setting in a church no. My church has quite a few musicians who sing or play in the worship groups, and none of them get paid. They all have full time jobs.  They see it as their minsitry for Jesus, just as those who have other ministries do.
My son is in the worship group in his own church and he would never dream of money for it. Otherwise why not pay all the other people who use their talents in the church. Maybe one person has trained for many years to be an accountant and he does the churches accounts in his spare time. Or a lady who has trained for many years to be a qualified counsellor, and uses her training to help those in the church who need such help. Where do we draw the line?   Its hard enough here finding the money to pay the pastor, and maybe a secretary who works many hours for the church, without having to find money for all those who give time and talents in other ways.

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 17:29:45

Quote from: Cally on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 12:01:22

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 02:00:59

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Mar 20, 2013 - 05:41:49

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Mar 19, 2013 - 12:43:30
I don't think that those in worship groups of churches should expect payment surely. Any more than people who have other gifts and abilities they use in the church do.

What about the leaders who write the songs, arrange the vocals and instruments, have to interface with the pastor and board and oversee purchase of equipment (in some cases that includes all the sound equipment)?

Few churches here could afford to pay the worship group leaders. IF equipment is needed and agreed by the church, then yes, they do need to pay for that. One of our worship guys does write songs in his spare time. However there are so many songs about now, that we have an amazing choice already.

Yikes . . . so a musician has to afford spending thousands of hours of his own time becoming an able musician, but nobody has to afford to pay him?

  Not in a worship group setting in a church no. My church has quite a few musicians who sing or play in the worship groups, and none of them get paid. They all have full time jobs.  They see it as their minsitry for Jesus, just as those who have other ministries do.
My son is in the worship group in his own church and he would never dream of money for it. Otherwise why not pay all the other people who use their talents in the church. Maybe one person has trained for many years to be an accountant and he does the churches accounts in his spare time. Or a lady who has trained for many years to be a qualified counsellor, and uses her training to help those in the church who need such help. Where do we draw the line?   Its hard enough here finding the money to pay the pastor, and maybe a secretary who works many hours for the church, without having to find money for all those who give time and talents in other ways.

Huh, I didn't realize those different parties were donating their work (I'm pretty sure churches I've known don't do that).