Christian Forums

Hello,
I am returning after a few years for advice, as I feel so confused right now, and I was helped here before. Long story short....

I feel my marriage is broken. My wife and I don't communicate well together. About daily activities/general stuff yes, but problems in the relationship that need addressed no. I was here in 2012 because I lost a child at 5 months to SIDS in 2010, then my wife had an affair in 2012. This demolished me as a man, and I came here for advice. I was given ideas, and went to counseling. Things seemed to take a turn, we stayed together, and have since had 2 more children (most recent in January of this year).

We still do not communicate well, are short tempered with each other, and haven't had sex in over a  year. I know there is healing that needs to take place after a C-Section, but this was about 8 months ago. When I try to bring up issues with our marriage, usually it feels like 1 of 3 things happens.

1. She lets me ramble with no input, and I feel I'm more so talking to myself. It's like a "let the husband vent moment," then it's over for her.

2. She gets mad at items I think we need to work on that I point out, and then shuts down/clams up also with no input.

3. She tells me this is a bad time, and that we can talk tomorrow. Well, tomorrow never comes so there is no resolution in my mind. I can't just let things go like that which I know will become worse over time.

It seems she has issues trusting me, even after almost 7 years of marriage, and all we've made it through/been through. Not sure if this is related to her father leaving/cheating on her mom, seeing her mom's relationships fail, issues with her past relationships, or something I did. There is never a clear answer. I feel like I keep speaking on deaf ears. Nothing changes, and I'm worried I'm growing tired of it.

Sex is not all that matters, but I keep getting told it's due to her breastfeeding (she says it's painful). She's gone to doctors with no resolution. I've tried voicing that I feel like she's not motivated by me mentally or physically. This isn't met with much of a response either. It almost seems like she's with me because I'm stable (i.e. I work, come home to help take care of the kids/house, and pay most of the bills). This only makes sense to me logically and by deduction. I don't have a personal life (I know time gets eaten up when you have kids), but I don't go out with buddies, go fishing, anything really. This probably stresses me out too, to be honest.

We went out to eat Monday where our first date was, but I don't think she takes me seriously (I told her what my feelings are lately). It was a nice evening. I mentioned at dinner in the nicest way possible that I don't think she will put into our marriage what it needs to reconcile itself. It seems the marriage gets put on hold for everything else, and thus suffers.

She asked what changes I've made to make it better, which is fair enough. I always promised her I'd quit smoking. I did over a year ago in a effort to keep my promise. I looked into marriage self help books. I quit my dead end job and got a job in the IT field (I'm good with computers/networking), and made a career to take care of us and our family. I spoke with a priest for guidance. I went to counseling and tried to work on myself. FYI, I've recommended couples but she always shoots it down. She hated counseling as a kid and despises it. So I won't be able to get her to go, already tried 100 times. She's military, and when our daughter passed her unit forced her to go because they were concerned for her. She went twice then stopped if that helps you understand.

My biggest concern is I'm worried for my kids and our relationship. I don't ever want to wake up and feel like I cannot see them every day. My wife is very independent (so I know she'll be ok), and her making big decisions without me has also become an issue over the years. I'm worried that if she ever does come to her senses, it's going to be too late on my end. I feel tired of trying already. It seems though that she is someone who cannot change, if even to better her marriage. If you have any questions feel free to ask and I will have no issue answering. I'm so worried I'm going to make the wrong decision, please help. 

I am recently divorced because she cheated, and then filed.  She didn't spill the beans about the other relationship, but i knew immediately.   I couldn't stay with someone that cheated.

Seems like you are putting in all the work.  I am afraid your marriage might have been over back in 2012.

Well, I don't want to discredit her in any way. She works and is great with the kids, unless you meant on our marriage  . I feel like she is an awesome woman, soldier, and mom. As a wife though I'm not so sure. I don't want to sound mean. Lately all I feel is my head spinning.

Yesterday was our daughter's birthday that passed away. Hardest day of the year for me I think. I mentioned to her on my way home that I got flowers and was going to visit her resting place. She asked if I wanted to wait until she got there, or if I was going by myself. I asked if she meant until she got to the house. She replied with don't worry about it, just go. That she had to get the kids. Then she tells me she can't believe me because I didn't ask her.

I almost feel like yesterday was a breaking point for me. I was the one that found our daughter when she was taken by SIDS. I tried to resuscitate her and couldn't. It's a nightmare I live with still to this day. I think this is the one day of the year that I would need her the most. She tried turning it into some type of issue. I'm not sure, like I said....I feel lost.

Hi there, are you both Christians and do you go to a good church?

If so have you considered going together to meet with a more mature Christian couple to talk and get advise and prayer?  You could go regularly as long as you need to and see how it goes, and you could also ask a couple who you both like and trust. Its not counseling so she may agree. I congratulate you for staying after her affair, many cant, but being that you have tiny children its worth fighting for. 

I've never suggested another couple so that is a good idea. I think she might even turn that down as it seems any type of mediator I've suggested gets rejected. I think that she possibly sees asking others for help as a weakness, not entirely sure. We currently aren't members of a church. I would like to be, but with her current work schedule it would be tough. She works days, nights, weekends (government job). Pretty much like most jobs whenever they tell her.

Thank you for the compliment. I stayed after the affair because I had faith and only ever wanted to be married once in my life. I lost my daughter and to lose her would have crushed me. So I was in a mentality to fight for it. Lately though I'm losing determination. Currently, my kids give me a big reason to want to stay, but I've had things pointed out to me. Things such as my happiness matters as well. I typically am the type more concerned with others well being. This causes me to neglect my own feelings/needs. I've been told though that to be all I can be as a father to them I have to be happy as well. If I'm not, I won't be and they will be able to tell.

I would advise you to try and find a good church, many have meetings at different times and on different days, and even if one of you is at work the other can go with the children.

I wonder, would she be wiling to get help if she knew how desperate you were and how fragile you believe the marriage to be? Surely she would swallow her pride rather than see the family break up?

amialone, you have a difficult situation, of which fact I don't have to tell you.  Curious, are you Catholic?  What caused you to seek the help of a priest? 

Knowing whether you are Catholic or not, I could possibly help you with a Catholic response to your situation.

It isn't about your happiness that is the issue.  It is about the example you set for your children.

I don't know your whole situation, so i don't  know if this applies, but i have seen a lot of damage caused to a man's children as adults, when they grew up watching him be a doormat to his wife.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Thu Aug 13, 2015 - 16:21:52
It isn't about your happiness that is the issue.  It is about the example you set for your children.

I don't know your whole situation, so i don't  know if this applies, but i have seen a lot of damage caused to a man's children as adults, when they grew up watching him be a doormat to his wife.

Yes, and vice versa. Also, when the children are raised in an environment where they witness one parent constantly mistreating the other parent, those kids often grow up to have little respect for the mistreated parent, not the parent doing the mistreating. Sounds backwards, but it's true.

Quote from: mommydi on Thu Aug 13, 2015 - 17:17:01

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Thu Aug 13, 2015 - 16:21:52
It isn't about your happiness that is the issue.  It is about the example you set for your children.

I don't know your whole situation, so i don't  know if this applies, but i have seen a lot of damage caused to a man's children as adults, when they grew up watching him be a doormat to his wife.

Yes, and vice versa. Also, when the children are raised in an environment where they witness one parent constantly mistreating the other parent, those kids often grow up to have little respect for the mistreated parent, not the parent doing the mistreating. Sounds backwards, but it's true.

In the case I was talking about, it was a specific situation.  The kids I think still favor their dad, but I do think there is resentment and disrespect.

With no-fault divorce, I wasn't the one that pulled the trigger, but I would have.  I am not putting my kids in that situation where I am a constant doormat.  However, I don't know that the OP is showing a situation where one is a doormat beyond the marital situation.

Was there any mention about why she cheated back in 2012?  That would perhaps give guidance about what she is looking for in the relationship.

Is she a book reader?  Several books come to mind that would steer her in the right direction:  Sheet Music, The Five Love Languages, His Needs Her Needs

It is ok for you to go to counseling for yourself for these many issues including grief if you need to do this.

Can't get the quotes on the forum to work in any of my 3 browsers.

Quote from: amialone on Fri Aug 14, 2015 - 08:52:42
Can't get the quotes on the forum to work in any of my 3 browsers.

Right-click the quote button and pick "open in new tab".  There is a bug in the forum.

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Aug 13, 2015 - 15:26:19
I would advise you to try and find a good church, many have meetings at different times and on different days, and even if one of you is at work the other can go with the children.

I wonder, would she be wiling to get help if she knew how desperate you were and how fragile you believe the marriage to be? Surely she would swallow her pride rather than see the family break up?

I'm not entirely sure if she would chosenone. It seems that she is ok with having things mediocre, where I am not. I know communication is a big issue. I know I cannot give her an ultimatum, as that won't end in favor of the marriage. She is the type of person that can sweep dirt under the rug, and find distractions elsewhere in life that take her attention away. I'm of a different type. I over analyze things and to me a problem is still a problem, regardless if it's out of sight.

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Aug 13, 2015 - 15:32:52
amialone, you have a difficult situation, of which fact I don't have to tell you.  Curious, are you Catholic?  What caused you to seek the help of a priest? 

Knowing whether you are Catholic or not, I could possibly help you with a Catholic response to your situation.

I am Catholica. I went to a priest because there was a moment in my life when I turned away from God...when my daughter passed. When issues popped up with my wife, I realized that there are some things outside of my control, I was overwhelmed, and asking for help was the only option I had. I had help from a priest when preparing for my daughters services, and his words were very helpful. I found myself in need of that again.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Thu Aug 13, 2015 - 18:00:25

Quote from: mommydi on Thu Aug 13, 2015 - 17:17:01

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Thu Aug 13, 2015 - 16:21:52
It isn't about your happiness that is the issue.  It is about the example you set for your children.

I don't know your whole situation, so i don't  know if this applies, but i have seen a lot of damage caused to a man's children as adults, when they grew up watching him be a doormat to his wife.

Yes, and vice versa. Also, when the children are raised in an environment where they witness one parent constantly mistreating the other parent, those kids often grow up to have little respect for the mistreated parent, not the parent doing the mistreating. Sounds backwards, but it's true.

In the case I was talking about, it was a specific situation.  The kids I think still favor their dad, but I do think there is resentment and disrespect.

With no-fault divorce, I wasn't the one that pulled the trigger, but I would have.  I am not putting my kids in that situation where I am a constant doormat.  However, I don't know that the OP is showing a situation where one is a doormat beyond the marital situation.

I don't necessarily think I'm a doormat. I do feel though that her drive to be independent makes me feel less important in the relationship because she doesn't include me in decisions. Not always, but enough larger ones that it's caused arguments, and made me notice a pattern occurring at this point. So it feels disrespectful at the same time.

Quote from: johndoo on Fri Aug 14, 2015 - 04:46:45
Was there any mention about why she cheated back in 2012?  That would perhaps give guidance about what she is looking for in the relationship.

Is she a book reader?  Several books come to mind that would steer her in the right direction:  Sheet Music, The Five Love Languages, His Needs Her Needs

It is ok for you to go to counseling for yourself for these many issues including grief if you need to do this.

I've always received cloudy answers to that. It took forever to get her to even apologize for it. Initially she said it was because I wasn't there for her. In my defense, at the time she pretty much worked 12-15 hours a day (army first, everything else comes after). She was thrown into that after our daughter passed and I don't think that she had the opportunity to grieve properly (nor I). She had to put the soldier persona/face on and get back to work. She would come home tired, ask what was for dinner, and watch tv/go on facebook. There was always a fine line I could never find. Either I was too close and she felt I was clingy, or I kept enough of a distance to not be and she felt I wasn't there for her. In this time a co-worker she was with daily was going through marriage problems headed for divorce. My thoughts are he fed into her problems (with losing a child and marital), and exploited a weakness she had. The most recent time I tried to dig into the cause of this...all she can tell me is that she doesn't know what she was thinking which falls in line with the generic I don't know answers I get more typically.

She does read, most James Patterson books. Sarcastically, I'm not sure if I should be worried since they all revolve around murder suspense. 

I do plan on going to therapy on my own if needed. I guess my concern is when they ask me about her, I don't know how she thinks and feels (communication again). I can project what I think she feels, but that could be completely off. I see this as an issue because like before whatever I learn about myself or resolve on my end is only half the issue. I use the analogy with her that a marriage is like a boat. If only one oar is moving then we are going nowhere, just in circles. That is exactly how it feels. That is how it's felt for a while.

Eight months with no sex, and no real communication is not mediocre.  You are right to be concerned.  Your marriage is in serious trouble.  Right now you guys are roommates.

Quote from: amialone on Fri Aug 14, 2015 - 10:24:40

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Aug 13, 2015 - 15:32:52
amialone, you have a difficult situation, of which fact I don't have to tell you.  Curious, are you Catholic?  What caused you to seek the help of a priest? 

Knowing whether you are Catholic or not, I could possibly help you with a Catholic response to your situation.

I am Catholica. I went to a priest because there was a moment in my life when I turned away from God...when my daughter passed. When issues popped up with my wife, I realized that there are some things outside of my control, I was overwhelmed, and asking for help was the only option I had. I had help from a priest when preparing for my daughters services, and his words were very helpful. I found myself in need of that again.

It seems that you have forgiven her for her affair, and that is a beautiful thing on your part.  But there is a disconnect between you and her that needs to be addressed.  Without mending this first there is little chance that you will be able to be truly intimate.

I think the solution for you and her is to spend time together.  Well, first of all, pray for her and yourself every day, that you would both seek and accept God's will.  I pray that there is nothing going on now that you are not aware of, even if it is hidden sexual sin.  That itself can create a wall of intimacy, and that is one reason why prayer is so important.  But second of all you simply need to spend time together.   Really good quality time, either as a family or without the kids.  Date nights are going to be really essential for you, I believe.   Or perhaps weekend getaways.

And in your mind take the marital act off the table.  The last thing you want her to believe is that you are just doing whatever you decide to do to get her to be intimate sexually with you.  Whatever you do, don't use that as your motivation.  Don't raise the question, don't suggest it.  The harder you pursue it the longer you will remain separate, for now.  You have to wait to raise that intimacy level again, and you will start to see her coming around; then you know.

On these dates, don't talk about yourself.  Its clear from what she wrote that she is not at this moment in her life very engaged in what you are doing.  That is unfortunate but that is a fact.  So be engaged in what she is doing.  And listen well.  And don't try to fix her problems but just lend an ear.  Show that you care about her through it all.  Empathize and sympathize, and try to really get to know her.

Losing a child is a very difficult thing, and you have my sympathies.  They say that it is such a stressful thing that many marriages don't survive.  Further infidelity is the second cause that leads to divorce.  So you have "two strikes" against you right now.  Thankfully it sounds like you have a sacramental marriage, and so your advantage is that God's grace will flow through both of you into the marriage and help you make it through, if you let God do it.

What you want to make sure of is that you are in a state of grace.  Go to confession if you haven't done so in awhile, and start going to weekly mass.  If you can't make it on Sundays, masses are offered every day.  Speak to your pastor and you can get a dispensation, perhaps to replace Sunday mass with a day that you are able to make it.  It is critical that you are able to frequently receive the Eucharist in a state of grace.  The Eucharist is the spiritual food that will sustain us all during the most difficult times, especially when we feel alone or depressed.  Jesus offers himself to us so intimately.  That intimacy with Jesus may just be what you need to make it through this time of lack of intimacy with your wife.

Humans are both spirit and flesh and Jesus came to us in spirit and flesh and continues to come to us in spirit and flesh under the appearance of Bread and Wine.  So be sure to receive that help.  He is close to those who come to him when they suffer, and he knows suffering very well.

Last night her mother spoke with me until about 1am (so I'm tired today to say the least). She wants me to do little things like kiss her on the cheek and tell her I love her randomly to see what happens. As much as  I thought it was a good idea, I didn't like that I was told I would have to initiate this. I think mostly because I want to see movement on both ends. I feel like I've spent so much time trying to voice what I saw as problems over the last couple years, that I'm exhausted. I expressed to her mom that I never am the type to want to give up on something, but my determination is dwindling. She told me not to give up. Fair enough, but easier said than done.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Fri Aug 14, 2015 - 10:51:19
Eight months with no sex, and no real communication is not mediocre.  You are right to be concerned.  Your marriage is in serious trouble.  Right now you guys are roommates.

It's actually been longer than that. To be honest though the communication is more important to me, I know the intimacy can return if that is resolved first. It does feel like we are roommates though, which is rough because it throws me back into 2012 as I felt the same then.

Quote from: Catholica on Fri Aug 14, 2015 - 10:51:45

Quote from: amialone on Fri Aug 14, 2015 - 10:24:40

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Aug 13, 2015 - 15:32:52
amialone, you have a difficult situation, of which fact I don't have to tell you.  Curious, are you Catholic?  What caused you to seek the help of a priest? 

Knowing whether you are Catholic or not, I could possibly help you with a Catholic response to your situation.

I am Catholica. I went to a priest because there was a moment in my life when I turned away from God...when my daughter passed. When issues popped up with my wife, I realized that there are some things outside of my control, I was overwhelmed, and asking for help was the only option I had. I had help from a priest when preparing for my daughters services, and his words were very helpful. I found myself in need of that again.

It seems that you have forgiven her for her affair, and that is a beautiful thing on your part.  But there is a disconnect between you and her that needs to be addressed.  Without mending this first there is little chance that you will be able to be truly intimate.

I think the solution for you and her is to spend time together.  Well, first of all, pray for her and yourself every day, that you would both seek and accept God's will.  I pray that there is nothing going on now that you are not aware of, even if it is hidden sexual sin.  That itself can create a wall of intimacy, and that is one reason why prayer is so important.  But second of all you simply need to spend time together.   Really good quality time, either as a family or without the kids.  Date nights are going to be really essential for you, I believe.   Or perhaps weekend getaways.

And in your mind take the marital act off the table.  The last thing you want her to believe is that you are just doing whatever you decide to do to get her to be intimate sexually with you.  Whatever you do, don't use that as your motivation.  Don't raise the question, don't suggest it.  The harder you pursue it the longer you will remain separate, for now.  You have to wait to raise that intimacy level again, and you will start to see her coming around; then you know.

On these dates, don't talk about yourself.  Its clear from what she wrote that she is not at this moment in her life very engaged in what you are doing.  That is unfortunate but that is a fact.  So be engaged in what she is doing.  And listen well.  And don't try to fix her problems but just lend an ear.  Show that you care about her through it all.  Empathize and sympathize, and try to really get to know her.

Losing a child is a very difficult thing, and you have my sympathies.  They say that it is such a stressful thing that many marriages don't survive.  Further infidelity is the second cause that leads to divorce.  So you have "two strikes" against you right now.  Thankfully it sounds like you have a sacramental marriage, and so your advantage is that God's grace will flow through both of you into the marriage and help you make it through, if you let God do it.

What you want to make sure of is that you are in a state of grace.  Go to confession if you haven't done so in awhile, and start going to weekly mass.  If you can't make it on Sundays, masses are offered every day.  Speak to your pastor and you can get a dispensation, perhaps to replace Sunday mass with a day that you are able to make it.  It is critical that you are able to frequently receive the Eucharist in a state of grace.  The Eucharist is the spiritual food that will sustain us all during the most difficult times, especially when we feel alone or depressed.  Jesus offers himself to us so intimately.  That intimacy with Jesus may just be what you need to make it through this time of lack of intimacy with your wife.

Humans are both spirit and flesh and Jesus came to us in spirit and flesh and continues to come to us in spirit and flesh under the appearance of Bread and Wine.  So be sure to receive that help.  He is close to those who come to him when they suffer, and he knows suffering very well.

Thank you Catholica. I will take all of this into consideration, and try to exercise it if I can. I feel drained over all of this and while I feel strong willed I know everyone has a limit/breaking point.

Suppose for a minute that you were not married.  Do you think you are the sort of person your wife would want to date?  Is she the sort of person you would find attractive?

Jarrod

Hi there,

After reading your opening post I wanted to suggest, as a mother myself, to offer for her to go to counseling on her own if she is willing.  There might be things that she is dealing with that she is having difficulty sharing with you from the experience of losing a child.  Sometimes, in counseling with your spouse, there is pressure to listen to someone who is supposed to know what they are doing and give the right answers.  Like saying things like, "yes, that makes sense," or, "that sounds like a good idea," because you don't want someone to judge you if that is not what you really feel like doing; or, there are a variety of responses that someone could be afraid of being judged for in that type of situation.  Sometimes, when something traumatic like this happens, people need to find their identity post traumatic event, and it sounds like she may have lost a sense of herself when this happened and individual counseling might be beneficial.   

Beyond this, I don't want you to feel like your feelings aren't valid because it does not seem like she is a spiritually vested in the relationship as you arem and I think that when you are unevenly yoked spiritually, this can be just as painful and frustrating as adultery.  I personally find The Doctrine and Discipline of Divorce by John Milton to be encouraging in this way.  He talks a lot about the pain of being with someone who is not interested in spiritual things in a way that we don't often hear in the church.  It is very encouraging. 

Take care

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Aug 15, 2015 - 02:44:57
Suppose for a minute that you were not married.  Do you think you are the sort of person your wife would want to date?  Is she the sort of person you would find attractive?

Jarrod

I still find her attractive, but the disengagement is a complete turn off for me. I find a million girls attractive, but one I feel that click with makes that much more of a difference. We have both gained weigh since we first met, not horribly but noticeable. I'm working on losing mine. I'm not really sure honestly if we would date now, but a clear answer might be distorted by all we've been through as a couple. The army has changed a little bit about her from the girl I fell for, but I tried to not let it be a deterrent. I feel I'm fairly the same, but ultimately can't be the judge definitively of that.

Quote from: Proverbs11_9 on Sat Aug 15, 2015 - 03:32:33
Hi there,

After reading your opening post I wanted to suggest, as a mother myself, to offer for her to go to counseling on her own if she is willing.  There might be things that she is dealing with that she is having difficulty sharing with you from the experience of losing a child.  Sometimes, in counseling with your spouse, there is pressure to listen to someone who is supposed to know what they are doing and give the right answers.  Like saying things like, "yes, that makes sense," or, "that sounds like a good idea," because you don't want someone to judge you if that is not what you really feel like doing; or, there are a variety of responses that someone could be afraid of being judged for in that type of situation.  Sometimes, when something traumatic like this happens, people need to find their identity post traumatic event, and it sounds like she may have lost a sense of herself when this happened and individual counseling might be beneficial.   

Beyond this, I don't want you to feel like your feelings aren't valid because it does not seem like she is a spiritually vested in the relationship as you arem and I think that when you are unevenly yoked spiritually, this can be just as painful and frustrating as adultery.  I personally find The Doctrine and Discipline of Divorce by John Milton to be encouraging in this way.  He talks a lot about the pain of being with someone who is not interested in spiritual things in a way that we don't often hear in the church.  It is very encouraging. 

Take care

I would love it and support her if she decided to go by herself. That as I said earlier always gets shot down. I ended up going by myself previously because I didn't know what else to do and it was suggested by members here in 2012 (thankfully). I will look into that literature. Hopefully I see light in the tunnel soon. She says she wants us to work out. The problem I find with that is the situation to me is similar to how smokers rationalize when they say they wanna quit. The effort required isn't really implemented and it is just words at the end of the day. My problem with that is, if nothing is going to change....what do I do, how do I exit, and should I?

Quote from: amialone on Fri Aug 14, 2015 - 10:18:41

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Aug 13, 2015 - 15:26:19
I would advise you to try and find a good church, many have meetings at different times and on different days, and even if one of you is at work the other can go with the children.

I wonder, would she be wiling to get help if she knew how desperate you were and how fragile you believe the marriage to be? Surely she would swallow her pride rather than see the family break up?

I'm not entirely sure if she would chosenone. It seems that she is ok with having things mediocre, where I am not. I know communication is a big issue. I know I cannot give her an ultimatum, as that won't end in favor of the marriage. She is the type of person that can sweep dirt under the rug, and find distractions elsewhere in life that take her attention away. I'm of a different type. I over analyze things and to me a problem is still a problem, regardless if it's out of sight.

Just reread your first post, and if her excuse is that she is breastfeeding and its painful, then at 8 months its time she stopped.

Quote from: amialone on Fri Aug 14, 2015 - 10:48:19

Quote from: johndoo on Fri Aug 14, 2015 - 04:46:45
Was there any mention about why she cheated back in 2012?  That would perhaps give guidance about what she is looking for in the relationship.

Is she a book reader?  Several books come to mind that would steer her in the right direction:  Sheet Music, The Five Love Languages, His Needs Her Needs

It is ok for you to go to counseling for yourself for these many issues including grief if you need to do this.

I've always received cloudy answers to that. It took forever to get her to even apologize for it. Initially she said it was because I wasn't there for her. In my defense, at the time she pretty much worked 12-15 hours a day (army first, everything else comes after). She was thrown into that after our daughter passed and I don't think that she had the opportunity to grieve properly (nor I). She had to put the soldier persona/face on and get back to work. She would come home tired, ask what was for dinner, and watch tv/go on facebook. There was always a fine line I could never find. Either I was too close and she felt I was clingy, or I kept enough of a distance to not be and she felt I wasn't there for her. In this time a co-worker she was with daily was going through marriage problems headed for divorce. My thoughts are he fed into her problems (with losing a child and marital), and exploited a weakness she had. The most recent time I tried to dig into the cause of this...all she can tell me is that she doesn't know what she was thinking which falls in line with the generic I don't know answers I get more typically.

She does read, most James Patterson books. Sarcastically, I'm not sure if I should be worried since they all revolve around murder suspense. 

I do plan on going to therapy on my own if needed. I guess my concern is when they ask me about her, I don't know how she thinks and feels (communication again). I can project what I think she feels, but that could be completely off. I see this as an issue because like before whatever I learn about myself or resolve on my end is only half the issue. I use the analogy with her that a marriage is like a boat. If only one oar is moving then we are going nowhere, just in circles. That is exactly how it feels. That is how it's felt for a while.

Sounds to me that things between you due to the affair were not really sorted out. She only seems to have said sorry after some time when you asked her to say sorry, and she didnt have any true repentance or sorrow, instead blaming you. This has probably affected the last 3 years, because if she has no real sorrow or repentant attitude, then what is to stop her doing it again? I doubt most people would take that adulterous person back with that sort of arrogant attitude  of 'it wasnt my fault'. Maybe because of that, she thinks that you will now put up with any sort of bad attitude or bad behaviour from her. As a Christian, is she aware that God tells us not to deprive the other spouse of sex? 

yes the rowing boat idea is the way my husband felt about his first marriage, if one is doing all the work and praying for the marriage and the other isnt bothering,and even praying for a way out, how can it work?   I do think that she needs to know how desperate you are, and how close you are to throwing in the towel on the marriage. Its may take that to force her to actually take you seriously and actually do something.

It may also be useful if you write all this down, exactly how you feel and how desperate you are, and give it to her in a letter. Also with any requests you have for the continuation of the marriage.

Quote from: amialone on Sun Aug 16, 2015 - 14:00:51

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Aug 15, 2015 - 02:44:57
Suppose for a minute that you were not married.  Do you think you are the sort of person your wife would want to date?  Is she the sort of person you would find attractive?

Jarrod

I still find her attractive, but the disengagement is a complete turn off for me. I find a million girls attractive, but one I feel that click with makes that much more of a difference. We have both gained weigh since we first met, not horribly but noticeable. I'm working on losing mine. I'm not really sure honestly if we would date now, but a clear answer might be distorted by all we've been through as a couple. The army has changed a little bit about her from the girl I fell for, but I tried to not let it be a deterrent. I feel I'm fairly the same, but ultimately can't be the judge definitively of that.

Fairly the same...

Do you think your wife, years later and a career in the military in the rear-view mirror, is still attracted to the same thing as before?  Expectations have a way of changing.

Jarrod

Quote from: amialone on Sun Aug 16, 2015 - 14:00:51

Quote from: Proverbs11_9 on Sat Aug 15, 2015 - 03:32:33
Hi there,

After reading your opening post I wanted to suggest, as a mother myself, to offer for her to go to counseling on her own if she is willing.  There might be things that she is dealing with that she is having difficulty sharing with you from the experience of losing a child.  Sometimes, in counseling with your spouse, there is pressure to listen to someone who is supposed to know what they are doing and give the right answers.  Like saying things like, "yes, that makes sense," or, "that sounds like a good idea," because you don't want someone to judge you if that is not what you really feel like doing; or, there are a variety of responses that someone could be afraid of being judged for in that type of situation.  Sometimes, when something traumatic like this happens, people need to find their identity post traumatic event, and it sounds like she may have lost a sense of herself when this happened and individual counseling might be beneficial.   

Beyond this, I don't want you to feel like your feelings aren't valid because it does not seem like she is a spiritually vested in the relationship as you arem and I think that when you are unevenly yoked spiritually, this can be just as painful and frustrating as adultery.  I personally find The Doctrine and Discipline of Divorce by John Milton to be encouraging in this way.  He talks a lot about the pain of being with someone who is not interested in spiritual things in a way that we don't often hear in the church.  It is very encouraging. 

Take care

I would love it and support her if she decided to go by herself. That as I said earlier always gets shot down. I ended up going by myself previously because I didn't know what else to do and it was suggested by members here in 2012 (thankfully). I will look into that literature. Hopefully I see light in the tunnel soon. She says she wants us to work out. The problem I find with that is the situation to me is similar to how smokers rationalize when they say they wanna quit. The effort required isn't really implemented and it is just words at the end of the day. My problem with that is, if nothing is going to change....what do I do, how do I exit, and should I?

I'm sorry, I must have missed that part about trying to see if she would get counseling herself.  I am sorry she is not making the same effort that you are.  But, the questions about what you should do if nothing changes are very difficult for anyone to answer.  I know that you do not want to leave if it will negatively affect your conscious "The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith" (1 Timothy 1:5). 

So, even if it difficult, if there is confusion about what you should do, it would be better to wait until your conscious has peace with your decision. 

In the mean time, I think the best thing to do is to, "seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well" (Matthew 6:33), which is the first step in clearing your conscious to make the best decision for your faith, as hard as that may end up being.  At the end of the day, even when you are married to someone, you cannot seek God for them; and if they become a hindrance to seeking God for yourself, you have to let it go and just follow Him whether she chooses to come with you or not. 

"And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Immediately they left their nets and followed Him" (Matthew 4:20). 

Take care. 

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Aug 16, 2015 - 21:36:50

Quote from: amialone on Fri Aug 14, 2015 - 10:18:41

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Aug 13, 2015 - 15:26:19
I would advise you to try and find a good church, many have meetings at different times and on different days, and even if one of you is at work the other can go with the children.

I wonder, would she be wiling to get help if she knew how desperate you were and how fragile you believe the marriage to be? Surely she would swallow her pride rather than see the family break up?

I'm not entirely sure if she would chosenone. It seems that she is ok with having things mediocre, where I am not. I know communication is a big issue. I know I cannot give her an ultimatum, as that won't end in favor of the marriage. She is the type of person that can sweep dirt under the rug, and find distractions elsewhere in life that take her attention away. I'm of a different type. I over analyze things and to me a problem is still a problem, regardless if it's out of sight.

Just reread your first post, and if her excuse is that she is breastfeeding and its painful, then at 8 months its time she stopped.

Agreed, but I have never had knowledge of this before. I didn't really see the relation to breastfeeding and pain during sex, still don't honestly. When I mention it she kind of guilt trips me like "am I supposed to just lay there and take it," which is not the case. I'm not a selfish person like that.  I tried explaining to her though that the mental, emotional, and physical disconnections all play into why I'm so lost currently.

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Aug 16, 2015 - 21:49:29

Quote from: amialone on Fri Aug 14, 2015 - 10:48:19

Quote from: johndoo on Fri Aug 14, 2015 - 04:46:45
Was there any mention about why she cheated back in 2012?  That would perhaps give guidance about what she is looking for in the relationship.

Is she a book reader?  Several books come to mind that would steer her in the right direction:  Sheet Music, The Five Love Languages, His Needs Her Needs

It is ok for you to go to counseling for yourself for these many issues including grief if you need to do this.

I've always received cloudy answers to that. It took forever to get her to even apologize for it. Initially she said it was because I wasn't there for her. In my defense, at the time she pretty much worked 12-15 hours a day (army first, everything else comes after). She was thrown into that after our daughter passed and I don't think that she had the opportunity to grieve properly (nor I). She had to put the soldier persona/face on and get back to work. She would come home tired, ask what was for dinner, and watch tv/go on facebook. There was always a fine line I could never find. Either I was too close and she felt I was clingy, or I kept enough of a distance to not be and she felt I wasn't there for her. In this time a co-worker she was with daily was going through marriage problems headed for divorce. My thoughts are he fed into her problems (with losing a child and marital), and exploited a weakness she had. The most recent time I tried to dig into the cause of this...all she can tell me is that she doesn't know what she was thinking which falls in line with the generic I don't know answers I get more typically.

She does read, most James Patterson books. Sarcastically, I'm not sure if I should be worried since they all revolve around murder suspense. 

I do plan on going to therapy on my own if needed. I guess my concern is when they ask me about her, I don't know how she thinks and feels (communication again). I can project what I think she feels, but that could be completely off. I see this as an issue because like before whatever I learn about myself or resolve on my end is only half the issue. I use the analogy with her that a marriage is like a boat. If only one oar is moving then we are going nowhere, just in circles. That is exactly how it feels. That is how it's felt for a while.

Sounds to me that things between you due to the affair were not really sorted out. She only seems to have said sorry after some time when you asked her to say sorry, and she didnt have any true repentance or sorrow, instead blaming you. This has probably affected the last 3 years, because if she has no real sorrow or repentant attitude, then what is to stop her doing it again? I doubt most people would take that adulterous person back with that sort of arrogant attitude  of 'it wasnt my fault'. Maybe because of that, she thinks that you will now put up with any sort of bad attitude or bad behaviour from her. As a Christian, is she aware that God tells us not to deprive the other spouse of sex? 

yes the rowing boat idea is the way my husband felt about his first marriage, if one is doing all the work and praying for the marriage and the other isnt bothering,and even praying for a way out, how can it work?   I do think that she needs to know how desperate you are, and how close you are to throwing in the towel on the marriage. Its may take that to force her to actually take you seriously and actually do something.

It may also be useful if you write all this down, exactly how you feel and how desperate you are, and give it to her in a letter. Also with any requests you have for the continuation of the marriage.

It's been substantially tough getting over that. I'm usually careful with who I trust and she is the one person I never expected to break that. I am trying to express my desperation to her, hard to tell if it's being absorbed though. I might try the letter idea you threw out there. I think I did something similar to that in the past to work around the clamming up I usually receive. I will try adding requests too, but haven't had any luck with ones voiced in the past really.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Aug 16, 2015 - 22:06:54

Quote from: amialone on Sun Aug 16, 2015 - 14:00:51

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Aug 15, 2015 - 02:44:57
Suppose for a minute that you were not married.  Do you think you are the sort of person your wife would want to date?  Is she the sort of person you would find attractive?

Jarrod

I still find her attractive, but the disengagement is a complete turn off for me. I find a million girls attractive, but one I feel that click with makes that much more of a difference. We have both gained weigh since we first met, not horribly but noticeable. I'm working on losing mine. I'm not really sure honestly if we would date now, but a clear answer might be distorted by all we've been through as a couple. The army has changed a little bit about her from the girl I fell for, but I tried to not let it be a deterrent. I feel I'm fairly the same, but ultimately can't be the judge definitively of that.

Fairly the same...

Do you think your wife, years later and a career in the military in the rear-view mirror, is still attracted to the same thing as before?  Expectations have a way of changing.

Jarrod

I most certainly think that tastes evolve, that's the nature of most of us I would believe.

Quote from: Proverbs11_9 on Mon Aug 17, 2015 - 16:05:48

Quote from: amialone on Sun Aug 16, 2015 - 14:00:51

Quote from: Proverbs11_9 on Sat Aug 15, 2015 - 03:32:33
Hi there,

After reading your opening post I wanted to suggest, as a mother myself, to offer for her to go to counseling on her own if she is willing.  There might be things that she is dealing with that she is having difficulty sharing with you from the experience of losing a child.  Sometimes, in counseling with your spouse, there is pressure to listen to someone who is supposed to know what they are doing and give the right answers.  Like saying things like, "yes, that makes sense," or, "that sounds like a good idea," because you don't want someone to judge you if that is not what you really feel like doing; or, there are a variety of responses that someone could be afraid of being judged for in that type of situation.  Sometimes, when something traumatic like this happens, people need to find their identity post traumatic event, and it sounds like she may have lost a sense of herself when this happened and individual counseling might be beneficial.   

Beyond this, I don't want you to feel like your feelings aren't valid because it does not seem like she is a spiritually vested in the relationship as you arem and I think that when you are unevenly yoked spiritually, this can be just as painful and frustrating as adultery.  I personally find The Doctrine and Discipline of Divorce by John Milton to be encouraging in this way.  He talks a lot about the pain of being with someone who is not interested in spiritual things in a way that we don't often hear in the church.  It is very encouraging. 

Take care

I would love it and support her if she decided to go by herself. That as I said earlier always gets shot down. I ended up going by myself previously because I didn't know what else to do and it was suggested by members here in 2012 (thankfully). I will look into that literature. Hopefully I see light in the tunnel soon. She says she wants us to work out. The problem I find with that is the situation to me is similar to how smokers rationalize when they say they wanna quit. The effort required isn't really implemented and it is just words at the end of the day. My problem with that is, if nothing is going to change....what do I do, how do I exit, and should I?

I'm sorry, I must have missed that part about trying to see if she would get counseling herself.  I am sorry she is not making the same effort that you are.  But, the questions about what you should do if nothing changes are very difficult for anyone to answer.  I know that you do not want to leave if it will negatively affect your conscious "The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith" (1 Timothy 1:5). 

So, even if it difficult, if there is confusion about what you should do, it would be better to wait until your conscious has peace with your decision. 

In the mean time, I think the best thing to do is to, "seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well" (Matthew 6:33), which is the first step in clearing your conscious to make the best decision for your faith, as hard as that may end up being.  At the end of the day, even when you are married to someone, you cannot seek God for them; and if they become a hindrance to seeking God for yourself, you have to let it go and just follow Him whether she chooses to come with you or not. 

"And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Immediately they left their nets and followed Him" (Matthew 4:20). 

Take care.

That's ok, long posts :)

Any conscious issue is probably related to my father leaving when I was 4. I never wanted to do that to my kids if I ever had any. Then again, he left and never returned, even for visits. I know I wouldn't follow that path. I just want to be as big of an influence in their lives as I can be. I know what it's like to not have that. I'm not sure how or if I can find peace in making that step if needed.

I do agree, any decision is going to take a lot of debate. I'm not good at making choices like this. I don't believe our marriage is horrible, and I do love her. I do believe that too many things have been dragged out though in terms of never being resolved. Over time this has made me exhausted in hope, and probably why I'm in this position in the first place. I guess too little, too late could describe it. The priest I spoke with in 2012 told me that even with as many couples as he had talked to in the past, that he wasn't sure if there was hope for us. We had been through so much in a short period of time as a new couple. I tried to stick it out, out of hope. My well is running dry though it seems.

Your marriage is currently horrible or you wouldn't be so distraught.

So I have somewhat of an update....

I went to a counselor who was a minister for 16 years, and now works with referrals from a few churches in the area. He was highly recommended. He told me all of my concerns are valid, in that they have done damage and need to be addressed. My wife is saying she will go, but only with me. I would like her to go alone because there are issues I think she needs to work on herself. I feel if I'm there, it is going to be a scenario where I do all the talking. That won't accomplish anything, as that's been the case for a while now. He won't allow me to set an appointment for her. He said her calling him says she wants to work on things and I understand the validity in that.

We tried being intimate over the last week. While it was a change, there was no kissing. It was kind of disturbing after the fact when I realized that. She keeps saying it seems like I don't want to be around her. While I do love her, I feel like this entire scenario has damaged my perception of marriage. Her mom tells me things I need to initiate because her daughter won't, but I feel thrown off by that. For the most part it seems like I've always been the initiator, and I'm tired of playing that role. It makes me think I'm the only one that will really give or sacrifice for the marriage. Words at this point while important don't really mean anything. I want to see actions, and I don't think that is unfair.

This whole situation for me is very odd. I love her, but I have this weird feeling I don't want to deal with this anymore. I'm not sure how to take that. We recently moved from another state so she's looking at houses but I do not want another commitment like that until I know we are solid. She had asked I give her a chance, but I feel rightly I have for the last few years. Me staying after the affair and trying to get her to agree we needed to work on things was a chance I believe. I just feel turned off by the whole situation because it's like she waited until the fuse was at its end to actually try to do something/stop it. I feel so burned out about all of this.

I'm going to try and continue to see the counselor. I trust him and even though the other day was me just giving him a run down of the last 5 years.... I think this week will be a change of pace, maybe more understanding for me.

Sorry to hear about the continued rough times.
I'm glad that you saw the counselor.
It is true that a lot of relationships are "unfair".
One person is often the "giver" and the other is more the "taker".
In counseling, you can ask for her to work on these things.
In the end, to stay, you will probably have to accept this is a way to serve your wife.
I've prayed for you today.

If she is willing to go with you then do that. It will be helpful  to go as a couple.  You can still go on your own as well if you want to. I think you need to make it clear as well that you arent prepared to commit to buying a house until the marriage is more secure and you have seen real changes and effort on her part to make the marriage work. Then give it a year and see where you are then. If things are a lot better and the marriage is more secure, then you may feel able to commit to a new house then.   

Its always very hard to get over an affair and many cant. Only you can make that decision but you do also have the children to think of. 

We went to two sessions together so far. I haven't seen anything that has really changed my mind overall. I believe my biggest issue with the affair is that she has never shown remorse for it, or actually apologized. She tells me it's because she doesn't want to relive it, but to me that sounds like an excuse. Sometimes we have to swallow are pride in an effort to make others happy. I know I've done it before. Now, based off that, I've had to sit on this for over 3 years now. I wonder if that has given me time to harbor resentment (I'm sure it has). There was a lot of lying, degrading comments to others about me, and reverse psychology that occurred during this time. Also over this time, the arguing, lack of communication, growing disconnect between us seemed to have grown. Losing a child and dealing with the affair in less than a 2 year period crushed me. I think having our two current children though made me overlook a lot of this as the focus was on them, and it wasn't as obvious until our current situation came about after the argument on my deceased daughter's birthday. Wanting to continue to try is tough when I got nowhere in 4-5 years. The thought of investing more time to potentially fail again scares me.