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Christian Nudist Resort.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Booty @ Jan. 16 2004,07:26)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Christian Nudist Resort.[/quote]
Booty,
As bazaar as this sounds, last summer I posted an article from our local paper saying that a nudist resort for young people (age 11-18) was going to be built within a 50 mile radius of where I live. I was stunned by this, but apparently it is the second or third one of its kind in the US (one is in Florida). I will see if I can find the article again. No one responded to my post on three different lists, so I assumed that no one was too alarmed about such a thing. It is mind-boggling to me...these are kids...what about the laws governing minors (apparently there are none in these cases because it isn't considered profanity or abuse). Over the limits??? I think so.
em

Booty and Em,

I am personally not to sure what to make of this phenomena that has really caught hold almost every where.  I have done some research into this in the last few weeks (this isn't the only Christian discussion forum where the subject is being discussed) and to say the least, and I must admit I have some mixed feelings about it.  I won't post sites but most sites that claimed to be Christian based had the least amount of nudist activity photos (the ones they had were mostly couples way past legal age and, although full frontal nudity was involved, had almost no sexual nature or even a suggestion of sexual conduct at all--making our normal TV soap operas look like XXX porn) and had more space devoted to theological discussion than anything else.  Reading the theological discussion proved to be quite interesting.  One person on one larger than average site had a article related to salvation.  It was the equivalent of probably 8 or 10 printed pages of 10 pt type.  The most interesting thing was---you would not have been able to tell the difference between a mainline CoC site and this site when discussing salvation, right down to immersion as a "MUST" do if printed out like a tract.  

I must warn anyone who even considers looking into this to BEWARE!  Pornographers are rampant and they will claim anything to get you to look at their site.  They have developed methods of highjacking URL's being requested their trash pops up and it also tries to infect your computer!  They have also developed methods of highjacking search engines and by using false search engine definitions, that are grabbing the control of the search engines so their sites will pull up way in advance of the ones actually being searched for.  The definitions that pop up are sickening!  They also dump cookies to your computer that will let them infiltrate it with pronographic pop ups and some of them are difficult to clean.

One other thing I did was to read the personal sites of a number of active teen  nudist/naturists.  Some of the sites were connected to the the "Christian Nudists" sites that had NO PORN and alot of theology.  These teen sites had NO nude photos (only clothed photos) but they did talk about their personal experiences, their family and family's reactions, and how/why they became nudists (most did not attend the teen camps but seemed to be more home bound (parental monitoring/control or close friends type activities with parents consent).  I was interested in trying to learn what they thought about sex in general and in particular how they felt about themselves.  What I found, if it is accurate (and I believe it probably is) was that these particular teens--boys and girls alike-- seemed to have a very good self image and a very strong aversion to the idea of sexual activity.  I don't want to glorify what I found or to make it sound worse than what I found.  These are just my observations and gut feelings.

This particular situation is not going to go away.  The nudist/naturist movment is gaining ground very quickly.  There seems to be enough activity already that one state park in Texas has a clothing optional beach.  What really surprised me was that I found a quite a few nudist/naturist private facilities within one hour driving time of my house with some not very far away at all that I never knew existed.  I knew of some that had been around for 40 plus years (pretty common knowledge among the general populace!), but many had opened in the past 10 years.

All that said, I think maybe it would behoove us not to sweep the problem under the rug by not talking about it (as some church Christians would probably like) but to realize that it is going to be something that has to be dealt with in the Christian community.  It is impossible to tell who participates in this activity and who doesn't until they either tell you or you "SEE" them, in which case, they are probably "SEEING" you at the same time!  It won't do much good to try to legislate them out of existance because that has already been tryed.  Considering the number of estimated nudists/naturalists in the world (30 to 45 million active by one estimate), the churches will have to figure a way to deal with the situation or the churches will be left "naked in the sun to burn up and blow away" by those who are moving that direction!

Wiley,

I am neither old fashioned nor the prude I probably appear to be. But I simply think we have more pressing matters to worry about with out opting to complicate our lives even further with nudism. And that comes from one who sailed for a number of years and clothing when making solo passage is frankly a item one does not concern over, yes or no.

Perhaps there are some groups stronger in the faith that could handle nude gatherings, simply do not know. But I do know that our eyes were opened to our nakedness and I have not heard of them being shut since.

My friend,

with all the discussion we have had over the past couple of years, you being "old fashioned or a prude" is one thing I would never assume of you!  I am pretty much in agreement with with you.  I don't want to see a mole hill made into a mountain and at the same time, I don't think it is something that we need to bury our heads in the sand about either.  The one thing I do know from reading those sites is there is a potential for alot of abuse from participation "in camps" unless tightly controlled, especially where teenagers and adolescents are concerned.  I don't know what the answer is.  I can understand the "naturalistic" desire, having spent much time in my life in the country where no one was around or just with other guys and one could swim "natural" in a stock tank ( a small lake/pond for those who are not country raised Texan) to cool off and wash the stinking sweat off after working in the extreme heat :D ).  That is still a fairly popular pasttime for teens after hauling hay, building fence, cutting brush, or for our country kids just wanting to go for a swim during the summer.  People who have rivers and stock tanks on their land don't need public swimming pools and their privacy is built in!

I think there will be problems here in the states before it is over and some good honest people (Christians and non-Christians alike) will be caught up in it.  IOW, what we do in our churches is going to make a difference, good or bad.  How we personally view it will have an effect.  If we do that from a position of ignorance, well you know where that leads.  The old saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is very applicable here.

The reason I was pointing out what I understood from the teen's personal stories was that we shouldn't rush to judgement because of the outward appearances (having dealt with the self image of teens in regards to their bodies in the past).  I have very mixed feelings on this becuase of the good/bad and the potential good/bad.  In our church camps here in the states, we don't even allow mixed swimming in many of them when wearing modest swimming suits and t-shirts.  The teenage sex and pregnancy rates around here have been out of porpotion for years, including in the churches!  Many of our church kids suffer from low self esteem (which they shouldn't!) and they have views of their bodies and of sex that are contrary to what they should have, IMO.  These kids that were telling about themselves (ages 13 to 17) and their activities seemed to have a much better attitude and acceptance of their bodies as God made them (rather than as society expects them to be) and to be much less interested in sexual activity or, in some cases I read, against sexual activity in their age groups period (which I really didn't expect to read based on some pre-assumptions from reading other discussions and printed stories).  That was pretty much across the board.  Those statements really cause a lot of thought when you hear others automatically assuming that orgies and pornography are automatically in progress or that their self image must really be bad to participate in this activity.

I found the "Christian" sites theology and reasoning to be extremly interesting, to say the least.  Whether I agree with all of their reasoning, I don't, but then I can also say that some of it is quite solid!  I just don't want to see the rush to judgement i'm seeing in some discussions but, on the other hand, I also don't want to ignore what could be a real problem area if we take a position of " if we just ignore it, it will go away!"  We've done that too many times over the years and the perceived and real problems never just go away.

Wiley,
When I read that a camp for nudist youth was being built about a half hour from my house, I also did a lot of research and found pretty much what you did from their websites. Of course, it would be inpossible to investigate first hand unless one is already a nudist. I am not sure how others might view such a camp, but I never envisioned orgies, open sex, or anything like that. What I did envision was something that is against what we in this country practice as modesty and something that is detrimental in spreading the gospel.

There are also groups of gay Christians, and extreme right wing extremist Christians, even Wiccan Christians. Almost any group can profess Christianity and seemingly have good reasons for doing so. I am not their judge, but when I see a group doing something that is contrary to scripture then I have to question it. Is nudism contrary to scripture? Well if you are in a rain forest and have never heard differently, maybe not. However, in our country, where it is the norm to be clothed (at least to some degree), I think we have to follow the principles given to those disciples in the early church (ie. dress modestly without extreme adornment that will draw attention to oneself). Nudism would draw my attention away from the message. A nude man or woman could stand before me all day and tell me of the wonderful things of the Spirit, but if he or she were nude, I would not be able to concentrate on the message.

From the articles (at least what the people themselves say) nudity is not a distraction to them when they speak of Christianity. Maybe not...as long as they stay in their own colonies...but could they ever "go into the real world" that way? No. Then something is wrong with this picture. If I were a nonbeliever, I would not take their message seriously (unless I had some motive other than becoming a Christian).

On the outside nudism might seem almost normal....that we should not say anything about it...but welcome them in fellowship (of course we might not be invited to their church for potluck). After all they were like that in the garden when all was innocent. But unfortunately, that was before the fall, and it is not normal. It is not what Christ was about or what we should be about. As Booty said, it is a distraction and we as Christians have much more to do than get bogged down with such things.  I could make the same case for a camp where everyone sits around smoking pot all day to enhance religious experiences (some groups do that). There are also camps where men and women or totally separated, even accepted camps that are all men or all women (ie. the Catholic monasteries) where people are clothed head to toe. The key factor is whether the experience is drawing one closer to Christ and winning disciples or is it a distraction that is drawing attention away from Christ.  

Anyway, you get my point. Would I stone nudists or condemn them to hell? NO...that is not my job nor am I qualified. What I can do, however, is not endorse what I know to be wrong and against Biblical principles.  
em

I chose not to read Booty's article.

I've heard about so called "Christian" nudists before, but we dont have any nudie parks of any kind in this area.   Hispanic people (the overwhelming majority where I live) have too much sense to pay money for the privilege of taking their clothes off in public.  That's something only gringos would do.  (I hope that isn't a racist statement.)   There is a rather isolated area of a park near here where nudists can go.  I've not been, but the report I heard is that it is frequented by elderly (Anglo) homosexual men.

It would seem to me that this would be a situation where Church discipline would be in order.  As well, if people took their children, then I think the child welfare people ought to be called in.

em,

I'll keep this comment shorter :D (I hope)

You have expressed many of the thoughts I have had.   My real point is that we need to be aware of what is happening, consider what our actions and stances are and go from there.  The movement has been on the gain for many reasons.

As far as the "Christian nudists camps" go, I don't think I'll run out and join one just to make up my mind  :blush: However, I did research the rules, etc, for several of the camps.  They are quite strict and some were very controlled as to who they would let join.  Many had a no tolerance perspective as to breaking rules and no public sexual activity of any type was usually one of the first two or three rules listed.  As I said, it is one of those things that I have some mixed feelings about.  What I would really like to see is some seriously researched, unbiased data on the Christian nudist camps regarding the effect they have on various ages from adolescents, teens, young adults, middle age adults and senior adults who participate and some firm statistics on actual sexual attitudes, out of wedlock pregnancy rates among teens and young adults, divorce rates, abuse rates, etc before I make up my mind.  That would really tell the truth about what is going on, if they really have the higher self image/worth that I found among the teens (and many adults) with web sites and the much lower incidence of early premarital sexual activity among the teens that they claim.

Regarding the orgies comment, that was based on the fact that many of the porno sites have that type of claim and other junk :goingtopuke:  pop up on the search engine results.  That also reflects what I was raised to think about nudist camps (and my impressions basically came from my parents.  As I said before, I limited my research to camps that used the word Christian when advertising (that took alot of skipping URL's that Google turned up even when searching by the word Christian and alot of quickly hitting the X to shut windows down!).  That's why I put out that warning about the porn operators highjacking URL requests and redirecting them to their own sites, not to mention that the porn operators apparently also own a large number of URLs that would indicate Christian nudist/naturists sites rather than porn sites.

I ended up saving the theological page URLs for several of the sites that had ALOT of opinions based on Bible study and have only started reading and studying their views/justifications from Scripture.  I think some of what I have read so far may be quite a stretch of Scripture, however, some of what they use for justification is fairly common knowledge and quite accurate based my study of other subjects that brought that information to my attention.

It's going to be interesting to say the least.

BOG,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]we dont have any nudie parks of any kind in this area. [/quote]

I don't know where you live but I was really surprised by what turned up when I searched by state and then narrowed it down from there.  I found what I didn't think existed except for about 90 miles away was really quite close at hand.  The search engines of course only pick up on URL's and web sites that are spidered on a regular basis.  Considering what I found in the way of advertised sites, my guess is there are probably as many that are not advertised on the web.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It would seem to me that this would be a situation where Church discipline would be in order.  As well, if people took their children, then I think the child welfare people ought to be called in.[/quote]

I don't think I would go to those extremes of child welfare unless there is a real reason to assume harm to the children, especially when the parents are with them all the time.  We see CPS in the metroplex and in my rural jumping ito situations they have no business getting involved in and disregarding situations the NEED to be involved in all the time.  

Church discipline, OTOH, would depend on alot of things.  However, considering how our society operates and views being clothed/unclothed, that may be something that might need to be considered IF what the parents/couples/teens/etc are doing reflects publically on the local church or causes disruptions inside the church which are not public.  Just my opinion though.  Considering how lax we are regarding sexual sin, I personally would have a problem seeing a family put through that because they went to a Christian family nudist camp and the same church pushing that discipline allow other outright sinfull situations to go unchallenged, which is a very commonv situation! BTW, one of those family warm weather camps I ran across had regular Bible study, prayer, and worship activities for all ages EVERYDAY of the week (all in the nude of course :doh:).  The interesting thing was that they had a sentence in their description of activities that said in effect:  "..put on Christ through baptism for the remission of sins.  We will be happy to assist you!"  Hmmmmm!  Sound awfully familiar

I'm no sociologist, but it seems as though there is more than just changes in our sense of modesty at play here.  It seems there's also a definite reaction to/rejection of our society's ridiculous obsession with appearance.

I don't see that the church has done much of anything to counter the focus on the physical; in fact, we've pretty much bought right on into society's unattainable standard of physical beauty.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]kari wrote:
in fact, we've pretty much bought right on into society's unattainable standard of physical beauty[/quote]
Agreed, Kari... And highly unfortunate.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"...beauty is vain..." (Prov. 31:30, KJV)[/quote]

Well, one thing is for sure. I doubt most churches will be sharing any potlucks with them in the near future.  Although I can imagine one day Christian nudists becoming an acceptable choice just as many other things have in recent years.
em

Em,

funny thing about the imagination of humans.  Whatever we seem to be able to dream up or think might be possible, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, usually seems to come true.
:(  And we just think the gift of prophecy is dead  :help:

At work, we try to avoid talking about what could happen because it usually does and that is never good! :frowning:

Trouble is, if I were invited to speak at one of these camps, I would not be able to use that old trick of putting oneself at ease by imagining the audience naked. :applause:

Wow.  I'd be forced to imagine them clothed...  :blush:

I have a nude only swimming pool in my house.  Its small though.  Its about 5 feet long and a foot and a half wide. Its right next to the throne.

Yeah, sure, but I bet the room it's in does not allow for a big audience...

<*giggle chuckle snort*>

I am still giggling at off moments over the mental picture I have of Wiley so thoroughly, painstakingly researching the nudist camps...

You have such a way with words, my dear! :blush:

needless to say, i have received an "education" on this one but I'm still trying to figure out what it is! :thinking:  

I looked into it and looked at some sites.  Very disturbing, that they have pics of kids on many websites and it seems to be perfectly legal if the shots are candid.  On one hand, I understand that it is just a body and I do believe sexual attraction wouldn't stand up under such intense exposure.  I believe you would just get used to it and there would be no mystery.  Desensitized.  Except the disturbed ones, who I believe it might only fuel.  

However, what adults chose to do with their time is a seperate issue from people who photograph completely naked children and post their pics on the internet.  We all can guess who wants to see that and to make it available will only fuel the desire, I feel.  I don't know a lot about those kind of addictions, but I would suspect that would be the case.

No Wiley I am not a prude and thank you. But I am uncomfortable with this concept for the following reasons.

First the youth. I just finished a series of lessons for the Elius at their request concerning sexuality. While we do not impose limitations on their beach attire, they all are quite conservative in dress. I believe this comes from their faith in the Lord and their very mature acceptance of the realities of life. They maintain an Amigo Bueno support system of their own devising. Basically they confide in their Amigo Bueno all their feelings and their Amigo Bueno cautions them when their normal attraction to members of the opposite gender exceeds limits.

Ask any Eliu boy and they will tell you loving their neighbour does not include planting a baby in her belly, and the girls feel quite the same way about bringing a boy to manhood and the responsibilities of fatherhood too quickly. There is also a very strong respect for their own bodies and what their image is as Christians. This in a land where sensual, (Not erotic, that is Brasil), but sensual dress is a way of life.

I really was amused at the twins. They are a beautiful pair of young ladies just now turning 18. They are of course very latin and have all the latin attributes of sexuality. But now I hear them making comments to each other like, "Not too short, we are not on sale!" and  "Is this how Cristo would dress us?" It was not that long ago that these two were causing accidents wherever they walked!

So at great pains we have managed to teach a healthy modesty which is independent of imposed dress regulations that others need to resort to. Where would nudity take this?

Second we older folk. After my Lord, my wife Sandi stands as the love of my life. We enjoy a marriage where we are not only husband and wife, we also are passionate lovers and we are best friends. But we maintain a certain degree of privacy to acchieve this closeness. And part of the closeness lies in our nudity as a couple.

However would we maintain this level of privacy in nude gatherings? Simply put, we could not. Perhaps that is our weakness, but we could not.

When we became aware of our nakedness, the Lord saw fit to expel us from the garden. I have no doubt that some day He will restore us to that state that existed before we ate the apple, but I do not see where any have acchieved that state of their own effort and I doubt seriously the Lord has visited a divine benedition on any group that might allow them to be in this state now, so for me I will say that nudity will be something that we will keep within the bounds of marriage.

Booty,

I have downloaded a lot of theological argumentation/discussion/study(?) that they have put out under the guise of Christian Nudism/Naturism.  I haven't had time to study it yet but that was where my study is was directed.  I would guess I have probably 300 pages of so of print out to read with all their scripture references and understanding as to how it relates to being a nudist.

One thing I am really looking for I have not found much on as of yet.  That is how nudism among teens effects their views of sexuality and what the actual or guessed at percentage rates for being sexually active before marriage is compared to the youth in our churches and to the non-believing populace who do not practice nudism.  I would like to find out what the effects are on children who are raised from a young age to adulthood in this environment and what the percentages are of Christian vrs non-Christian who are active nudists/naturalists.  The social nudist movement has only been around in the US since the 30's and has mushroomed exponentially in the last few years with new private camps/resorts opening on a regular basis.  I found 12 in the DFW metroplex and that does not assume an up to date list by any stretch of the imagine.  I also found a nude beach on Galveston Island that is open to the public.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] I also found a nude beach on Galveston Island that is open to the public.
[/quote]  Wear sunscreen at least when you research it!! :blush:  :blush:

Talulah,

I under stand your concerns!  I have them also.  However, I have some other concerns also about if parents actually know their children have had photos put on the web.

I spent a number of years as a pro photographer (did not take nudes!).  I had to be aware of the laws regarding privacy, advertising, ownership, releases, etc to be able to use even candid photos in a public method.  One of those laws require me to have a signed modelling release anytime I used a photo with an identifiable face in it.  If it was a child, it had to be signed by parents.  Candids fall under the same laws as portraits, etc.  If it is in a public place, photos can be made but they cannot be used for any purpose except private viewing without a release.

The other concern I have is basically the same as yours.  The real problem of course being the Supreme Courts definition of porn vrs non-porn photos.  That definition has a very subjective standard, IMO:  it is subject to the interpretive view of the person looking at the photo.  Alot of the candids do not fall under the porn definition, even though they are taken in a way that is very suggestive and arrousing for viewers.  I do not understand why photos like you are describing can be published on the web, but when a parent who has made bathtub photos of their young child are taken to Wal-Mart, the Law and Child Protective Services is called by Wal Mart and parents get harassed for something that every parent I know has done with their kids at one time or another.  Just another example of a government and society out of control.

Booty,

I don't think I will personally research that one :doh:   However, that brings up another point to look into.  I wonder what the skin cancer rates are for nudists  :frowning:  :crackup:

LOLOLOL!!! Wiley!  Of course they must be higher, simple logic tells you that. But then as I am perpetually bronzed here, my incidence must be higher as well.


Let me know when you go to the beach, a dear friend is always asking me for more pictures for his web site!! :wave:  :thumbs-up:

Americans, and who knows who all else, have an instant association of sexuality with nudity that need not be. Look at any documentary of tribes in S America, Oceania, or Africa and one instantly notices the lack of clothing. Mature watchers will quickly find themselves not bothered by it. Yet show a Westerner in similar garb and suddenly you have to blur out the bits and boobs (and, depending on the channel and time of day, the butt-cracks). A child raised on a steady diet of this will soon be confused and curious about sex and nakedness. But the confusion and curiosity comes after the child has shed the natural and instinctual notion that nakedness is not only normal but desirable. Ever try to catch a kid who slips away from you when you are trying to dry her off after a bath?

Kids learn both prudishness and prurience from us grown-ups. And they learn it, not from what we wear, but how and why we cover ourselves up. Kids learn to be naughty about body parts well after they've had their love for nudity ripped away from them.

Here's a little-known fact. Candidates for mikveh, and later, baptism, came to the baptismal water, took off all their clothes, were baptized, and were given new clothes to wear. This practice continued well past the first century. If we insist on first century forms of baptism, I'm afraid our sensibilities will just not be able to take authentic baptism.

One of the most enduring reasons against nudity I hear is that, "some people just shouldn't go around with no clothes on" meaning of course that nudity is undesirable simply because I can think of some people whose bodies I wouldn't care to look at. Is that the best reason? It's a stupid and selfish one. Modesty, another popular reason, is also very subjective. Back to our primitive tribes, we don't see them as immodest. My sensibility and sensitivity to others forbids me from coming to church with just swim trunks and flip-flops. But I have worshipped God wearing just that.

I guess, like Booty says, there are just more important things to talk about. For instance, the prevalence of pornography, rape, pre-marital sex and pregnancy, materialism and arrogance with appearance, low self-esteem, eating disorders, suicide....

Oh wait. I guess naturalism does touch on those things. In fact, it might be integral. Maybe we shouldn't dismiss this topic quite yet.

Charlie, I think you've said something very important.  Something that the church (of all brands) has pretty much ignored.  Would you expand on it?

Charlie,

How many do you think are in any way ready for nudity?

We cannot even agree on handclapping!

Booty,

There might be agreement on the handclapping if someone were to walk down the isle in church nude!  If there wasn't hand clapping from slapping the sides of legs from laughing so hard, it would be handclapping from support and astonishment, or iif it wasn't from any of those reasons, it would be the sounds of claps caused by hands slapping over the mouth or the hands of wives hitting the backs of husbands heads as their heads turned (or maybe the opposit :doh: ) !!!!!!! :blush:  :D  :clap:   :help:



[!--EDIT|WileyClarkson|Jan. 21 2004,12:39--]

Maybe if enough people came to church in the buff, people wouldn't argue about handclapping anymore! :thumbup:

Seriously, many of the problems we face stem from a two-fold deficiency.

First, we have a lot of self-pride. We think that if we look a certain way, dress a certain way, and act a certain way, that we are not just correct, but better people who should be proud of ourselves. When a girl walks around in certain clothes that shock others, a comment you often hear is, "hasn't she got any pride?" or "has she no shame?" Those comments, though contradictory, mean the same thing: people who look like that obviously don't care what they look like. This points to the underlying assumption (which I challenge) that people should be very conscious of their appearance; that they should care what they look like. Aside from situations where appearance is a symptom of serious problems (e.g. "you don't look well; are you feeling okay), our outward appearance should be at the rear of our self-assessment.

The second problem is the notion that you can cover up your own shame. Instead of exposing it and dealing with it, we all too often cover up our problems to avoid scandal. We cover acne with makeup, we disguise a limp, we comb our hair over our bald spots, we never let anyone see our 'privates' ('cause goodness knows nobody but me knows what my privates look like), all in a noble, yet futile and ultimately self-defeating attempt to make everyone believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong with me. Of course we all see right through the facade with others, yet we act like everyone else hasn't got a clue with what's wrong with us.

Advocating nudism isn't the answer. The problem isn't that we wear clothes. The problem is that we think that clothes are both a source of pride and an adequate shield from any problems. Nudism is nothing more than a bold attempt to force people to come to terms with the human body and view it neither with inappropriate pride or shame.

I have scars, scratches, moles, lumps, hair, nails, nipples and genitals. So do you. So does everybody. What am I honestly trying to keep the rest of you from seeing? The only reason I should really have to wear clothes is because it's cold this time of year and my feet are still tender (mainly because I usually wear shoes).

If we're going to go back to Eden for our ideal of marriage, why don't we do the same thing for our ideal of self-image. The remarkable thing, and the thing which I wish we could get back to, is not that Adam and Eve were naked, but that they were not ashamed. Clothes aren't the problem. Shame is.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I have scars, scratches, moles, lumps, hair, nails, nipples and genitals. So do you. So does everybody. [/quote]

Point of Order on the Hair bit, Wiley and I would like to
dissent!



Oh we do Charlie and you are right, I just look at all the other issues we need to put to rest and I simply cannot see the need to wave me cheeks in the buff!

And I really think we are simply not ready for this yet, if we will ever be before He returns.

Charlie,


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Advocating nudism isn't the answer. The problem isn't that we wear clothes. The problem is that we think that clothes are both a source of pride and an adequate shield from any problems. Nudism is nothing more than a bold attempt to force people to come to terms with the human body and view it neither with inappropriate pride or shame.
[/quote]


You just said in one not very lengthy post basically what I found that several different pro-nudist theological papers said in quite a few pages!  Interesting!  This indeed is something that deserves some thought.  While I was interested in their line of though, I wasn't too sure that the view they were going for was something I wanted to consider, but now, having seen the same view here, I think I will study it a little deeper

While the point of the studies I read so far all were in support of nudism, they said the same thing basically that you are saying.  They base a part of their claim on Adam and Eve covering up their shame of sin with fig leaves and not their bodies.  Their position was that they were not covering up because they knew they were just naked.  They were covering up because they knew they were naked because they knew thay had sinned by eating the from the tree of knowledge.  God then killed animals (shed blood for the sin) and covered them in the skins to remind them of the sin they committed and that animals they had lived with peacefully had to die to becuase of their sin.  The conclussion is that the clothes made from the skins were more symbolic than actually needed at that moment considering the garden was still ideallic in conditions.  later, the clothing gave them protection from the elements, work, etc.

Later discussion went one to ask does clothing cover the shame of our sins?  No.  Does God see us naked?  Yes.  It then went in to a discussion on the blood of Christ covering our shame.  Some interesting reading so far, regardless of whether one is for/against nudism.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]My sensibility and sensitivity to others forbids me from coming to church with just swim trunks and flip-flops. But I have worshipped God wearing just that.[/quote]
:amen:  :amen:

Charlie,
I must agree with the statement you made about swim trunks and flip-flops.

Although I admit, I do not own a pair of flip-flops ... but where I was a member in Fort Worth, it was not uncommon for those of us working "Bible Hour" on Sunday night for the kids or for quite a few on Wednesday night service showing up in shorts(some even in sandels), or for a previous preacher to preach in his bare feet.  And I am pretty confident in saying I doubt anyone would be "looked at" if they wore shorts on Sunday Morning <gasp>

The point is why all the ties....all the formal clothes.....do we frown on those visiting who may show up not "dressed to the max"?

Some of my dearest, most emotional memories of "edifing one another" has been when we were all casual.......granted NOT as casual as having it "in the buff"..........

A great read is Mike Root's book "Spilt Grape Juice" from a few years back.  It is a great study on worship.

All that aside.....I don't think you have to worry about me on THAT beach in Galveston....... I go to the swimming pool with my jeans and tennis shoes on.....:help:  

Now if I can just get our preacher to FORGET his ties :whistle:

Gaylan

We very seldom use ties although there is a congregation in the state that insists on it. And personally I often preach wearing sandals, but than slacks, Guayabera and sandals is formal here.

I have just read with interest your remarks re: nudism.  My single 24-year old son who is a new Christian lives in South Florida and works for a mortgage company.  His job is to go into people's homes and close loans.  He recently called me enroute to one of his clients.  When he had called his boss to find out a little something about this client, he was told that she was a 30 year old lady who resided in a nudist colony!  My son was quite anxious about this, as you might imagine, fearing he might be faced with insurmountable temptation there!  As it turned out, she received him fully clothed, and anyway, to quote Geoffery, "She was fat, Mom, so no problem."   :noworries:

Well then, I'd be no temptation!

Off with the clothes!!