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As a christian who tries to hone and fine tune and mature, I find a paradox that is hard to explain and deal with.

In my desire to search for truth and know it, how do I admit that I may not be right when I believe I find it?  How does one admit I might not have it right and keep a strong faith?

If I can call on God's grace to cover my error then why isn't everybody who is searching for truth right? And if everybody is right, because of God's grace, then what is truth?

I find the more I search for all truth, the less absolute truth I am able to identify and define.  This requires a definition of absolute truth to mean absolute details.  General truth is clearer.    Fine tuning of details is not particularly difficult if the base truth is solid. 

Murder is sin.  What is murder?  Killing of innocent on purpose.  I accidently ran over a kid.  That would be man slaughter.  Why is it not murder?  Because it was accidental.  I was drunk out of my mind at the time.  Oh, that would be a felony.

I dropped a bomb on a suspected hideout of terrorists and killed the kids too.
Whose base truth determines if this would be murder, manslaughter or whatever?

For some, all killing is sin.    For others, that would not be true.   

We have to have a base truth to stand on to allow for truth in the details built on that base.

Some scripture is obvious.   Some are not so obvious. 

It stands to reason that the base truth must be substantiated on the word of God whether the person believes it or not.   An atheist could define what murder is and be exactly on target...the truth... even though he had no idea the bible already defined that.   

Homosexuality being sin or even wrong would be determined by someone's base truth.  If no bible is referenced, then science or feeling or whatever would determine the persons perception of the truth. 

The difficulty is when christians can not fellowship one another based on each others biblical understanding of what the truth is.

Coming to terms with the different interpretations of some unessential doctrines is, to me, a test. And I mean personally, it's a real test of patience, how longsuffering I can be by the grace of God, how much am I willing to humble myself in order to keep focused on the essentials of the faith. Pretty important to define the essentials, I'd say.

My own beliefs have changed considerably from those with which I was raised, but I think those changes have been mainly in the peripherals of the faith, not in issues which are essential to salvation. So from my experience, I've learned that God's revelation of Himself to believers is a progressive thing. Whew, if He laid it all on us at once, who could stand?

So... from the Bible, we know that Jesus is the Truth. Not "a" truth, but the whole enchilada. Remember when He told the Jews, You search the Scriptures, thinking that in them you'll find eternal life, but you will not come to Me... ? That tells me: When in doubt, go running to Jesus.
No, everybody's not right, but love covers a multitude of wrongs. Really, there is only one thing needful and that is to be right about Jesus. He brings the rest to pass 

Another thread has been started using this quote from jon-marc I think

When you learn that Jesus Christ is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" and trust in Him, you will find a whole new life opening up to you. You will find the joy, peace and happiness that He gives, and you will find eternal life that He offers.

And others here have said as well,  Jesus is the Truth and that's why it is so important that our focus be on Him.  Anytime, it is taken off of Him, there will be confusion, there will be doubt but we as Christians anyway can agree that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.  Anytime other issues get in the way of that, I need to realize what is really important--Jesus and what is really His message--Love and so as long as I'm loving God and others and trusting Him, I don't have to worry about all that other stuff.  It's not about how right I am.  It's about how right He is   

Quote from: Serenity432001 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 - 12:08:40
It's not about how right I am.  It's about how right He is   

QuoteIf I can call on God's grace to cover my error then why isn't everybody who is searching for truth right?

When God's grace covers your error does it cease being an error?  Of course not!  Its the same way for that "everybody" you mention as well.

Searching for truth, even finding truth doesn't make you right.  The truth - Jesus - is right.


Motive is what's important here.  Do you want to be right, meaning others are wrong, or do you want to be right with God?  Look at James 3:13-4:12.  If we search for truth (ask) with wrong motives (to be right and prove others wrong) we will not be successful.  But if we humbly turn from sin and ask God for wisdom in our search for truth He will give us what we ask for.

CT,

You ask good questions. I think they are ones that many people struggle with.

First, I don't think grace was given as some kind of mistake whiteout. That is a perception that has developed in some circles of the CoC when trying to mesh grace with the previous system of theology. In my experience the CoC tried to find the right system and at some point people said what if we have the system wrong, can these good Christ-like Baptists who honor Jesus name not be saved?

Grace became what covered wrong interpretations. It was an attempt to reconcile grace with the old way of thinking but what if that way of thinking about it was wrong to begin with? What if we weren't supposed to look for some set of truths, right ways of doing it, to begin with?

I just don't believe the Bible presents grace in this way. In my opinion that adds to the struggle.

I don't connect with that idea of truth and error. The built in assumption seems to be that I must find all truth and that is the goal and the mission of Christians.

I just don't think that is why we were given grace or what it is about. We are to find Truth, Jesus Christ and to do that we must know who He truly is but to me that is different than saying truth and error are some list of items culled from scripture.

Do I want to know what is true? Embrace Jesus and seek to look like him is what I am to do.

Grace came to set me free from sin so that I might actually reflect Jesus in some way. Not perfectly while I am in this earthly body but I seek to look like Jesus none the less.

The idea that permeates the Bible is not do I know all truth and will grace cover when I don't but instead will I seek after God will all of my ability in all that I do because I think scripture is very clear that if we truly seek we will find. No questions of how smart we were or how much truth we may have known, but that is just me and what came from your original post.

Thanks for the good questions. Maybe I have misunderstood your point. They made me think.

But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. Deuteronomy 4:29

I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me. Proverbs 8:17

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13

You make a good point.   We coc tend to not use grace as "covering a doctrinal error" as the error must be from an insincere desire to know the truth or only caring about the doctrines of men to have ear's tickled.   We see God as demanding truth in all we practice and/or believe.  We coc may or may not speak of grace in "covering some sins" but typically we have had to pray for forgiveness of even unknown sins committed to maintain salvation.   The idea of the grace of God is relatively new to our vocabulary, except to recognize that we are "saved by grace through faith" which of course faith being right doctrine (with the right heart of course)

Nail on the head, zoo.  I get so weary of the accusation that people who disagree must have some dubious motive, some desire to "be entertained" or to "have their ears tickled", etc., etc.  Sometimes, it's true, but more often than not what you have is people desiring to serve the Lord with all their hearts, but not always on the same page of just how that plays out.  I trust the Lord to be wise enough to distinguish between the two.

I must say that this thread borders on the meat of the word and not milk..

Faith in Jesus is our common bond not the religion that follows it..Faith is the rock that serves as our foundation...Righteousness comes from trust in the work of Jesus not ours..Once the message of the gospel has been received in the heart...believers have a task to search for truth..to be more perfectly in line with God's plan for man..but we must remember Paul's delimma in Philippians3:6..legalistic righteousness..It's good to search the scriptures for truth because the Holy Spirit constantly challenges us to reach greater heights..However Paul clears up an escape from legalistic righteousness as a salvation tool..He swapped his thinking over to...

Philippians3:9..."not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law but that which is through faith in Christ...the righteousness that comes "from" God and is by faith..."

Faith powers a search for the truth so that we have a better vision of God's kingdom...but..his grace protects our salvation as we struggle to find truth and yes we may be wrong but we are not wrong ..We may be right but we may be wrong..but as long as righteousness comes from God and is unearned..we can have mutual respect and tolerance for each other through faith...religion..no..Jesus yes..

Just some rambling inspired by your mature posts..only what the bible means to me..

God bless,Peck

Thank you all for your comments.  There is no doubt far too many people may have their faith anchored in a system that does little more than makes them feel comfortable.  This is confused with having a faith anchored in our God who still challenges us and, at the same time, gives us peace.

Quote from: Cross-titled on Thu Jan 04, 2007 - 10:05:37
In my desire to search for truth and know it, how do I admit that I may not be right when I believe I find it?

By understanding that our minds and understandings are finite. There is nothing wrong with living as though I know this desk is solid even while knowing that it is sufficiently porous to absorb radioactivity and allow neutrinos to pass through it. The same is true in the spiritual realm. We live our lives, as Paul said, based on what we know, and at the same time understanding that what we know may not be entirely accurate (a better term with fewer moral implications), or that we may apply our understandings differently with different people and in different situations.

QuoteHow does one admit I might not have it right and keep a strong faith?

Because our faith isn't in us; it's in His faithfulness. Part of our faith includes the ability to gracious to others, accepting them as they are, and still living as we percieve God and living in community with people with whom we share understandings.

QuoteIf I can call on God's grace to cover my error then why isn't everybody who is searching for truth right?

Again, being accurate in our understandings isn't the point; our faith in God's promises is. In some aspects, everyone who is searching for truth is "right" in that they are searching for truth - their life direction is in a positive direction. That does not mean that any of us must be accurate in our understandings to be acceptable to God.

QuoteAnd if everybody is right, because of God's grace, then what is truth?

From a modernistic stand point, truth is objective whether or not anyone understands it. From a postmodern perspective, truth can be subjective in that the way we perceive reality is subject to my senses. For a particular individual's world, truth may not be the same as another's in at least some sense. From God's perspective, everyone is acceptable regardless of their understandings of truth. God it seems is more interested in who we are rather than what we know.

We often equate in a rough fashion our validity, or value, our standing by whether we grasp the truth accurately. We then assign moral evaluations to being "right" simply by the words we use to describe accurate grasps of truth. In doing so we do ourselves and our neighbors a great disservice, cause ourselves anxiety, and find our faith under attack - from ourselves.

When we grasp the concept that God already knows we don't have a complete grasp of truth and He loves and accepts us anyway, we will have an easier time of doing the same for ourselves and the people around us.

<<In my experience the CoC tried to find the right system and at some point people said what if we have the system wrong, can these good Christ-like Baptists who honor Jesus name not be saved?>>

THIS IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM I HAVE BEEN HAVING FOR OVER A DECADE!!!!

Our sister group (a group of women I meet with once a week) has been studying Beth Moore's Breaking Free.  I love her enthusiasm, I love that she seems to have a heart for God and for hurting people.

Yet because she is Baptist, and because I was taught that Baptists are not saved because they don't believe in baptism the "right" way, I have a very hard time trusting anything she says.  And that negates anything good that I could get out of her study.

I enjoy reading Christian fiction because most of it is uplifting and I don't have to worry about skimming over graphic sex scenes and mentally bleeping out swear words.

But EVERY SINGLE BOOK, if they have any conversion scenes, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, they pray a prayer and ask Jesus to come into their life.  The closest I've come to what we would call a "Biblical conversion" comes in Virginia Smith's book Just As I Am, where a girl is baptized in the first chapter.  And even then, there's an implication that she's already become a Christian, she's just getting baptized to show others she believes.

I like many of Chuck Swindoll's books.  But The Grace Awakening refers to the baptism of Romans 6 as being a "dry" baptism as opposed to being a "wet" baptism.  I wanted to throw the book across the room.  He's right as far as the crush of legalism is concerned, but if he could say that Romans 6 refers to a "dry" baptism, what else could he be wrong about?

James Dobson has some good parenting points . . . but he said a prayer at three and says that that was his conversion experience. 

My own personal experiences, as many of you know, include a stint in the old Crossroads movement and a stint in independent house churches.  I feel as if I was lied to in both cases.  I grew up Baptist.  I feel like I was lied to there, also.  Crossroads said the Baptists were wrong because they didn't preach baptism properly.  The house churches said that Crossroads was wrong because of its legalism.  The house churches were sold to us as the Biblical way to meet.  Never mind that probably the real reason was because we were such financial bad shape that we couldn't afford to keep our building. 

The problem with searching for truth and desiring to be right is that PEOPLE LIE.  People lie in the name of God.  I have been lied to so many times in the name of God that I don't know who to trust any more.

Quote from: mattmom on Fri Jan 05, 2007 - 15:49:19
The problem with searching for truth and desiring to be right is that PEOPLE LIE. 

Of course, they could simply be wrong.

Accepting someone as a brother or sister and realizing that they have good, Godly things to say doesn't mean we have to come to a doctrinal agreement with them on all matters.  Their reading of scripture, like ours, is influenced by what they have been taught and the spiritual communities in which they have lived their lives. Accepting Baptists and others doesn't mean that we have to recant the importance of baptism.

In the New Testament, any time whether someone was in Christ or not was questioned, the answer came down to their view of Christ.  This, rather than doctrinal issues, was paramount.  And this makes sense.  Grace can cover our misunderstandings and our doctrinal errors, but without Him, there can be no grace.

I understand that you've been involved in a manipulative fellowship.  It's been my understanding that manipulation is a byproduct of exclusivism.  If we have all truth, then we have to dig in, fortify.  Deception is ethical when it comes to warfare.  This is human thinking, but it is prevelant. When evaluating others' motives, it is often good, I think, to take a look at how open they are.  Are they transparent?  Do they hide their motives, try to keep others from knowing what they really believe?

Then how do you know?  How do you figure it out?  I know the answer is "read and study the Bible", but the same people who lied to me USED THE BIBLE to "prove" that they were right and everyone else was wrong!!!!

Beth Moore, in the current study we are doing, talks about strongholds.  Well, this is a stronghold for me.  I cannot get past this fear of being lied to and believing a lie.  

The Crossroads people said that the Baptists and everyone else were wrong.
The church I went to after leaving the Crossroads movement said that Crossroads was wrong.
Then that church said that we were wrong by meeting in "organized" religion and that the house churches were the "right" way to do it.
Practically every group I have been in has said that they are the only ones who are right and THEY CAN "PROVE" IT BY SCRIPTURE.
If you go outside of religion, it seems that everywhere, there's no fundamental truth to be found.
Science has its hidden agenda.
Politics has its hidden agenda.
Education has its hidden agenda.
I'm tired of hidden agendas, and I'm tired of feeling as if I have to wade through a mound of information just to figure out what the truth is.

I added something that speaks to this, I think.

Personally, I believe that one problem is that we want to know too much.  When we want to be right about everything, that is a sign that we're trusting in ourselves.  If we trust in God, we realize that faith means we don't have to know everything.  We hide ourselves in him, and let his grace and his love take care of things.

We're not saved because we're right; we're saved because of the grace of God.

mattmom, you have used the word LIE several times.  Lying is intentional falsehood with the purpose to decieve.  These people are not liers nor are they lying.  Thay may be wrong or we may be wrong.  Neither is lying.  The reason you think they have lied to you is because what they are saying does not mesh with what you understand or what you were taught and THUS you are experiencing discomfort.  That discomfort is being interpreted as being lied to because to consider otherwise would cause a change in time honored understanding/beliefs/acceptance.
When our ancestors believed the world was flat, they were not lying to anybody UNLESS they really knew it was round and didn't want the truth to come out.  Alternative understandings are not lies unless they are purposefully decieving.  However, it is true that alternate understandings may be dead wrong... the world is in fact round, but no one stopped being human and the world didn't stop revolving just because everybody assumed it was flat.

Quote from: zoonance on Fri Jan 05, 2007 - 17:14:46
mattmom, you have used the word LIE several times.  Lying is intentional falsehood with the purpose to decieve.  These people are not liers nor are they lying.  Thay may be wrong or we may be wrong.  Neither is lying.  The reason you think they have lied to you is because what they are saying does not mesh with what you understand or what you were taught and THUS you are experiencing discomfort.  That discomfort is being interpreted as being lied to because to consider otherwise would cause a change in time honored understanding/beliefs/acceptance.
When our ancestors believed the world was flat, they were not lying to anybody UNLESS they really knew it was round and didn't want the truth to come out.  Alternative understandings are not lies unless they are purposefully decieving.  However, it is true that alternate understandings may be dead wrong... the world is in fact round, but no one stopped being human and the world didn't stop revolving just because everybody assumed it was flat.

Logically, you're correct in some areas. 

In the old Crossroads movement, they didn't tell me at first that they didn't think I was a Christian.  They drew me in with friendship and with my desire to study the Bible.  THEN they sprung it on me that I needed to be baptized in order to be saved.  That's a common technique in abusive churches; their agenda is not evident at first.  It is deceptive.

In the house church movement, we were never told that the reason for splitting into house churches was primarily because we were about to lose the building.  We were told that this was a more Biblical way to meet than the way we were meeting.  We *were* aware that our finances were pretty bad, but our financial situation and our house church split were never tied together, IIRC.  My opinion?  I think that was deceit.

THAT is what I mean by "being lied to".

This is what I was talking about earlier.  We believe we are the only ones going to heaven, but we refuse to say it out loud.  We welcome people into our fellowship and treat them as Christians, all the while working to convince them that they were not properly baptized and will be eternally lost if they do not do it our way.

We are deceptive.  We are false.

Transparency's more than a buzz word.  If we believe something, yet do not want our beliefs to become public, something is wrong.

Quote from: marc on Fri Jan 05, 2007 - 18:25:33
This is what I was talking about earlier.  We believe we are the only ones going to heaven, but we refuse to say it out loud.  We welcome people into our fellowship and treat them as Christians, all the while working to convince them that they were not properly baptized and will be eternally lost if they do not do it our way.

We are deceptive.  We are false.

Transparency's more than a buzz word.  If we believe something, yet do not want our beliefs to become public, something is wrong.

Right.  At least the Churches of Christ that say they're the only ones going to heaven are being honest. 

Quote from: marc on Fri Jan 05, 2007 - 18:25:33
Transparency's more than a buzz word.  If we believe something, yet do not want our beliefs to become public, something is wrong.

That hits rather close to a frustrating situation 'round here lately.  Folks in public say "sure, they're our brothers" but then fight toothe and nail any move whatsoever toward any public show of such.  Which reveals to me that they don't really consider them brothers and sisters.  Their actions staunchly and loudly betray them.

Quote from: jmg3rd on Thu Jan 04, 2007 - 17:35:59
...  I get so weary of the accusation that people who disagree must have some dubious motive, some desire to "be entertained" or to "have their ears tickled", etc. ...

To folks who take that stance I say that there is NO VIRTUE in stodgily slugging along through the molasses mud of a half-baked life --

With putting up with mediocre anything --

With living under the suffering of boredom --

And keeping a tame caged small unchallenged mind --

And calling that some sort of righteousness.

Hmph!  Maybe that is the Godly life... if by the suffering I am doing some kind of penance to pay for my own sins...  Y'all think?

Nope.

I think it is being lied to.  Even if the people believe what they are teaching, IMO it is still a lie.  I certainly feel like I was lied to about lots of things concerning God.  May have even spread some myself and not being aware.   I think it's the reason a lot of people don't want to look at it or admit it because they don't want to admit they lied but you know Jesus blood covers all that when we repent so when we do see it and then just choose to deny it or rationalize it away, then IMO that is much worse.   Sure it's painful to actually see it, admit it, and then change.  It's why rigorous honesty is so important and necessary.  IMo, change can not happen without it.   

 Organized religion can be wrong but it's basis is from the ancient writings(bible)...It is our perception that may be wrong not the bible itself...We disagree(which means one is wrong)because of perception..We all agree on the message...

For example..Baptism has exclusions and leads us to different understandings about it..One perception may be that it saves us..One perception may be that the resurrection saves us and baptism is a demonstration of the resurrection that saves us..Either way,we embrace Jesus in baptism...It's just the way that humans handle faith...We search the scriptures to organize our faith and that is good but organizing faith doesn't save...Faith saves..Then faith leads us to organizing our obedience...

The only cleansing agent for sin is the blood of Christ..He shed it in order to establish a new covenant of grace..Faith accesses the obedience of Jesus so that we can claim the price he paid for our own...Then faith leads us to accept the terms of the new covenant...Accepting the terms of the covenant may become confusing because each of us may have a different perception of what the scripture means..

Or maybe I lied...It's not whether I'm wrong but rather that Jesus is right..and all humans can be wrong at times..grace should never play second fiddle to understanding religion..It is by grace that we are saved..

Only what the bible means to me..lie..wrong..dumb..weak...The older I get the more sinner saved by grace becomes apparent...

We in the CoC may take more pride in our religion than we should..

God bless,Peck

I'm not sure that there is any church or religion that is 100% correct on everything (Well, maybe the Baptists are   ). I had a pastor who said that you don't have to be a Baptist to go to heaven, but as long as you're going you might as well go first class.

Actually, while some religions are so far from the truth that I seriously doubt there are very many there who know Christ, I am sure that there are saved people in pretty much all religions. They didn't hear about God's Son or His saving power in that religion, but they heard it somewhere and trusted in Him. However, for whatever reason they liked their religion and didn't want to leave.

We're not saved by our religion or denomination. We're not saved because we're in the RIGHT religion, since there is no one right religion. Those who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour are saved regardless of the religion to which they belong. There will be people in heaven that no one expected to see there, and there will people missing who we believed would be there.

Mattmom,

We all lie in the context you place it in.

In Romans Paul dealt with division over opinion, right way and wrong way, by saying we all have sinned and fallen short. I think his prescription stands the same today.

The constant searching for the right way will always end in frustration. We live in a broken world and so the search for the perfect way of doing it is a losing proposition.

That is why Paul warns the churches in Galatia to avoid falling into the trap of a new way that pretends to be the Good News. Galatians 1:6-9.

Paul uses strong words for those who want to add to the message of faith and salvation through grace.

I would recommend reading Galatians with this in mind. Walk through thinking that this letter is written to people who are being convinced that the way they do it, in context a Jewish way, is what is most important and then look at what Paul says is the Good News he taught and received.

If not you will continue to travel this road where you find everyone is a liar at some point and every system has its problems.

It occurred to me today that none of us will get it "right" because we are all sinful humans.

So the question is, how right do you have to be to make it into heaven?

Didn't Jesus die for imperfections that will always be with us?

i think if you took a new perspective about those who deceived you, maybe some of your frustration would go. think about it. you see their manipulation and have learned a great lesson. a lot of people choose to remain blind. you didn't. you have grown and they haven't. that is a wonderful place to be. instead of seeing it negatively, think of it as God teaching you. keep seeking.

seekr

Quote from: mattmom on Sat Jan 06, 2007 - 13:40:56
So the question is, how right do you have to be to make it into heaven?

Right enough to put your hope and trust in Jesus Christ, relying on what He did to get you into Heaven.

KP

Mattmom,

You are still framing it in the wrong context because your focus ends up on you.

How many mistakes can one make?

It sounds suspiciously close to a question Peter asked Jesus. Jesus response is recorded in Matthew 18:21-35.

Good point kanham and seems to be the hardest one for us to get that have been taught it IS about us and what we do--I'm still working on understanding this--Jesus paid it ALL

Manna to Seekr and Serenity!  :o)