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Hello,

I posted this on another Christian message board but it doesn't get as many posters.  I'm basically asking the same question here.  Background on me: I'm a single Christian female, no children. However, I'm sure my experience is not limited to single women as some married women have experienced this as well. As the holiday season approaches, I spend more time around families and friends which is good. The problem is dealing with the one or two married man whom I have to see during these holiday-gatherings who are too friendly towards me.  Hugging too long or too often, holding on to my hand long after shaking it.  Recently, at the end of the gathering we all had to hold hands for a big group prayer.  The overly-friendly married man was next to me so he grabbed my hand and starts caressing my skin with his fingers over and over as we waited for the person to begin praying.  I'd heard before of people doing things like that to signal their sexual interest but that was my first time personally experiencing it.  I started to open my eyes and look at him to see in the world was he doing, but I didn't.  I continued in prayer. 


These type of men alway ask a lot of questions so that they can extend the conversation to become more on a personal level. With so many people around conversing with each other it appears to be completely innocent to others.  However, the guy is staring into my eyes with a look of desire and I'm disgusted.   It is to the extent that not only am I very uncomfortable but it makes me feel bad for their wives. In one case the wife is not quite sure if her husband's interest in me is out of curiousity or more than that.   In the other case, the woman's husband was outright flirtatious and I've heard from others that this is the way he behaves toward any attractive woman. I would never tell the wife about her husband's action toward me; why hurt her when she had nothing to do with his actions.    To others who've experienced this, how to best handle married men who are behaving this way toward you at family or church events?   I don't want to cause a scene because again I'm concerned about how this would affect the innocent person -- the wife.    I put myself in their shoes.   I would be extremely sad and disturbed if my husband acted that way toward other women.  Let me say that this is not every married man, nor even most but a good number act this way and maybe they're not aware of how they're coming across but sometimes even other people around notice.  It is that bad.  Can wives tell when their husbands are very interested in another woman in the room? Do wives talk to their husbands to let him know this is not acceptable behavior? I'm open to advice as the holidays are upon us. Thanks.

Well, in terms of just getting him not to flirt with you, end the conversation and act very disinterested. Assuming that he is flirting with you, an abrupt end to the conversation tells him that not only are you aware that he's flirting but that you are not interested. He'll feel double humiliated and probably a little bit guilty.

However, some guys were raised by very affectionate mothers and might not mean anything by it. So I guess you risk hurting their feelings.

If he makes playful sexual jokes, that's when you can just about be completely sure he's interested and flirting. That's when it's time to say, "I'm going to go talk to _____." Or, "I'm done talking, thanks."

That's cold, and I think you should only do that if you are certain they are flirting with you because imagine how you'd feel if you were just trying to be nice and someone did that to you.

The guy who caressed your skin while in group prayer was probably doing it for the exact reason you thought HOWEVER, I know some people who are in the habit of moving their hands while holding another persons. It's almost because it feels awkward to be completely still. But I'd say the odds are that his intentions were not pure. But it could be that moving his hand (caressing) would be as far as he'd ever dream of going. It's tough to know what's going on in other people's heads.

Just this man's opinion.

   Thank you for your response.  I'm glad to have a male's response. 


I forgot that men read the forums as well, lol.  Luckily, most of the people I'm around are Christian so I don't have to deal with sexual jokes.  However the "just being nice" has been the problem.  The being nice was really an excuse to lead to more.   This may sound very Victorian-era but I think men should "just be nice" to their wives and be simply courteous to other women.   The same for being affectionate.  Only toward wives and daughters (but with daughter of course in a non-sexual, non-sensual way).   I agree that it's hard to know what is going on in other people's head.  I don't want to judge any man falsely.  I want to do the right thing in the right way.  Trying to find the best way to do that. 

I've never understood why a guy would think that making physical advances (like you describe).... actually "works".   Kind of like whistles and "hey babes" when a pretty girl walks by. 

Men can be very sad people (in the contemporary sense of the word).  If a married man acts flirtatiously towards a woman who is not his wife, then he may be doing it because he hopes to enjoy an adulterous fling, and is testing the water so to speak.  On the other hand, he may also be trying to ascertain whether or not he is still capable of charming women.

This makes me think of the film Brassed Off in which Tara Fitzgerald has to fendoff the amorous attentions of married men, which she does by resorting to innuendo.  Obviously that might not appeal to you though.

Social charm is acceptable always.  Such charm is not respective of gender but is universal.  While it might be enhanced because of mixed company it is not deliberate in design.

Anything that move beyond social charm, particularly charm reserved for dating or intimate contexts such as caressing, prolonged eye contact, and so on is inappropriate and is deliberate, regardless of the protests of those doing it.  It intends on entering a level of intimacy greater than non-gender boundaries.  It is gender based, hence sex based.  Clearly it is not sex and no one is saying it is, the basis for the further social intimacy beyond appropriate universal social charms. 

Such people should be dealt with graciously but firmly.  A man will hold on to a woman's hand because generally he is more aggressive and depends on a woman's tendency to acquiesce.  She should not.  He violated her social trust.  She must rescue herself and in doing so he will be made aware, without stating it, she objects to his force and violation of boundaries.

As well these type of people need clear boundaries set so set them.  You don't have to verbalize them, that is offensive and not warranted usually.  Certain gestures, motions and postures usually provide them.

It may be a man's world but you don't have to acquiesce to their faults.  You can't necessarily change the bad behavior of others but you can set boundaries that make it clear your environment is not a place for it.

Thanks for the suggestions.  The comment about married men who act that way are testing the waters so to speak rings a bell.  I've never known personally but recently read about of a man and woman who served on a church committee together both left their spouses, their church, and married each other.  I wondered how that could have happened with so much prayer and bible teaching in their environment?  When this brother caressed my hands as we were waiting to begin prayer that incident came to mind.  That may be how those type of things start.  One person is interested in the other and tests the water.  If the other person is open to it then off it goes the making of an affair among Christians.  I probably seemed pretty naive about what really goes on with men, women, and marriage, but since I don't think about how to cheat it always catches me off guard when I run  into other people who attempt these types of things.  I have no problems setting the boundaries non-verbally and letting the man know I am not open to that.  It is hard though when it is a small prayer group because when we stand to join hands this man can easily slip between me and the person I'm standing next to grab my hand and no one would ever think anything.  I would look like the strange one for acting stand-offish.  He is looked up to highly in the group and at church.  There are other things that happened with this man that I didn't mention because I thought nothing of it at the time.  But now, I think he accelerated in his behavior towards me until it reached the point of holding on to my hand too long and caressing it.  But looking back, it started slowly over time with him asking me many questions and being too interested in me but I thought, along with others including his wife I'm sure, that he was just being nice.   Thanks everyone for your comments.  It helps to have objective opinions. 

"But now, I think he accelerated in his behavior towards me until it reached the point of holding on to my hand too long and caressing it."

Wow, I guess you let that go on a bit long.

You cannot change other peoples' behavior except by changing your own.  Take responsibility for your own actions and who you stand by and don't stand by.  If you're a pretty woman, for the rest of your life you will be desired.  Better to learn your own social graces and how to handle reality than to expect those around you to properly orchestrate situations to your satisfaction.

No, Mr. J., you cannot change another person's behavior.  But, she has every right to expect a grown man (and married, at that) to behave properly towards her.  Take care of her own actions?  From what she has said in her post she isn't the one caressing hands and other inappropriate behavior.  Perhaps she'll handle reality by engaging in an old southern tradition of slapping a lech's jaws.  And, her beauty should in no way cause her to have to put up with oafish behavior--why should her appearance cause her to be treated any differently than anyone else?

And, yes, I am aware that I have assumed that the man's behavior was inappropriate.  This was is response to your assuming that she in some way caused the behavior.

1

charli,

you say some very untrue things.  You should be ashamed.

Tell us all where I suggested she is the instigator,"in some way caused the behavior."  You seem just pleased as punch to throw out the accusation, how about showing us where I said that?

All people are, indeed, responsible for their actions and inactions.  Her story says she is not the instigator, but her story also says she has not taken some sort of responsible action.

Do you suggest females are not to be expected to take responsible actions when situation arise?

The only thing I said that could be construed as even remotely untrue was that you assumed  she caused the unwanted behavior--and that is more of an assumption than an untrue statement as the gist of my post was pointing out that she has the right to expect reasonable behavior from grown, married, Christian men.

Certainly females should take responsible actions when the situation calls for it.  But this would presuppose an offensive or inappropriate action from a male, something that should not have happened in the first place.

Twice tonight you have called me a liar (here and in another post), when most folks would have said "you are mistaken" or such and pointed out why or how-- and I may have conceded the point. Why are you so hostile? Especially considering the fact that I have not lied about anything.

By the way, why did you delete your previous post?  Were you afraid that I would mistake your statement  (not verbatim--Heaven forbid that I should misquote you) that you could almost agree with me, for something approaching kindness?

I am a wife and this is what I do not respect or like when unmarried females do around my husband.

-dress in tight and our low cut clothing.
-act all giggly and stupid
-hint around about s*xual stuff
-flirt
-think they need to talk alone with the husband.
-whine around about their troubles trying to find a man to feel sorry for them and give them attention

The list could go on and on. But I feel the husband also has a duty to respect their marriage and not be alone with the unrelated unmarried female.

IMO an unmarried unrelated female needs not to be rude or ignore a married man but she needs to put herself in the wife's place and think on what she would want and feel comfortable with consering her husband and other women.



Try bringing in the husbands wife and kids into he conversation Like " I saw your wife and son the other day. I cant believe how fast he is growing.  How long have you and your wife been married? Your daughter looks like your wife doesn't she?  And bla bla bla"

I know and think males and females no matter their marital status can chit chat and treat eachother with respect but now a days with so much visual temptations and a lack of morals there is more and more boundaries being crossed and it is damaging marriages. I chit chat at church with males ( and females) but always in the view of others and where others can hear.  I don't think I need to run and hide every time a male comes near me that is not married, I can still talk but I must always be careful of boundaries just like everyone should IMO.


And yes I would say many wives can tell when their husband is thinking and doing wrong things about other women around them. We women have this inner alarm that goes off when a man is going down the road of lust in his mind. You can see it on their faces and eyes no matter how they try and hide it and it is repulsive and creepy for the female to have to witness and endure when it is a man that is not her husband looking at her that way.

Ever get the cold shoulder, silent treatment, or just plain uncomfortable vibes from the wife? If so then perhaps she notices something wrong or maybe she is just the insecure type. it can be hard to tell. What I do when this happenes is to start conversations about my husband, kids, my job, church and give her compliments without over doing it. Once she feels you are safe and not a threat to her marriage she will mellow out.

BJ Bobbi Jo, I completely agree with what you've said about how unmarried women should not act around someone'e elses husband.   I think you and I, and I've never been married are in the minority who feel this way.  When I was in a relationship not only did some unmarried women act that way around my boyfriend at the time but you'd be surprised at the number of MARRIED women who act that way as well.   Very giggly married women around other men or overly concerned with trying to use her body to catch his attention.  This has happened to me on several occasions.  Then there were two different cases of two different married women who were unhappily married whine to my boyfriend about how their husband wasn't treating them well, or never at home, or whatever problem.  They went into detail about what hubby wasn't doing and whine on my boyfriend's shoulder.  The first one I knew personally.  Around me she never complained about her DH.   Guess she wanted to keep up the facade that being married was great.  The second wife I didn't know personally but in both cases I found out about it.   Unhappily married women use either their ex-hubby or an exy-boyfriend as a sounding board about the current state of their marriage or they become very acquainted with a single straight male coworker or friend "supposedly" to get a male's opinion of why their husband acts this way or that way.   Either way this is very inappropriate and we all know where it will lead to if unchecked. 



As far as the low or tight fitting clothing, oh my gosh every female under size 18 from age 12-62 seems to dress in snug fitting blouse, tight jeans, or short shorts.  I'd love to hear from the average respectable man on what honestly goes through his mind on a daily basis just on what is thrown at him at every corner.     



I rarely get the cold shoulder from wives that I know or meeting for the first time because I never chat with married men for any considerable length of time.  Certainly don't flirt.  What do we have to talk about that I couldn't talk about with a single guy?  The few times I've gotten cold shoulder I just didn't worry about it.  I figured her insecurity stems from the type of man she's married to or she feels I'm better looking so she's jealous.  Although I feel sorry for any woman with that type of husband, that is not my doing.  That's the hand life has dealt her.  My looks are God-given so I have nothing to apologize to any person for.  Since I can't do anything about those two problems I just don't worry about and it has RARELY ever been a problem for me. 

Quote from: Kharisma on Sun Dec 02, 2007 - 17:23:01
As far as the low or tight fitting clothing, oh my gosh every female under size 18 from age 12-62 seems to dress in snug fitting blouse, tight jeans, or short shorts.  I'd love to hear from the average respectable man on what honestly goes through his mind on a daily basis just on what is thrown at him at every corner.     

Here is a link for the results of a modesty survey done by males only. It talks about what types of clothing are more  of a temptation for men. Of course every male is differant but it gives a guideline at least. You have to click on the category you want to check out then click on the statemens to see how men voted on them. Some men think about anything is s*xually alluring while others seem less sever.

therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse

I cant remember if we are allowed to post links or not on this forum and I don't wanna break any rules knownly so all ya have to do is  cut and paste the above partial link and add the WWW. in front of it.

Quote from: BJ_BOBBI_JO on Sun Dec 02, 2007 - 20:58:06

Quote from: Kharisma on Sun Dec 02, 2007 - 17:23:01
As far as the low or tight fitting clothing, oh my gosh every female under size 18 from age 12-62 seems to dress in snug fitting blouse, tight jeans, or short shorts.  I'd love to hear from the average respectable man on what honestly goes through his mind on a daily basis just on what is thrown at him at every corner.     

Here is a link for the results of a modesty survey done by males only. It talks about what types of clothing are more  of a temptation for men. Of course every male is differant but it gives a guideline at least. You have to click on the category you want to check out then click on the statemens to see how men voted on them. Some men think about anything is s*xually alluring while others seem less sever.

therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse

I cant remember if we are allowed to post links or not on this forum and I don't wanna break any rules knownly so all ya have to do is  cut and paste the above partial link and add the WWW. in front of it.

A link to a place without major offensive content, in the course of the conversation, is fine -- I checked out some different ways to view and use the surveys on that site, it looks very useful.

I'll leave your reference up there, because you made a good and useful one -- but, in general, new folks are not permitted to link.  The main reason is, IMO, to stop fly-by postings of links to offensive, commercial or competitive websites.

Stick around and talk with us a while, let us all get to know each other, then you can link when you need to, after you get a few more posts under your belt.

Good conversation, BTW.  We are not a homogenous society, even here in the decadent West, so there is a lot of room for error in reading other people's "signals".  All you really have to go on when you're experiencing stuff as mentioned in the OP is your "gut feelings" about it, as informed and shaped by the Holy Spirit.

One point about moving hands during a prayer --

Some people have arthritis or nerve damage or twitchy hands from a medical condition or excessively sweaty palms.  Lots of reasons to graciously not hold hands during a group prayer.

If it's gonna be a long one, I don't stand up for it and I don't hold hands unless I can rest the clasped hands somewhere.  Hurts too many places to stand up and have my hand hanging there in someone else's hand.

I might beg off with a wink or a smile and a whispered comment like "Sorry, I have nerve damage " -- Or some other true comment -- then I would kindly pat the hand of the person who had reached for mine, and direct him/her to take the next person's hand.  Ain't no problem to me to be left out of the prayer circle.  God can still hear me.

I might stand near (but not too close) and rest my hand on the next lady's shoulder, or the next man's forearm, as the two people before me in the circle held hands, if it seemed really important to everybody that I must be physically in touch somehow.

As for the "taking advantage" of the women, and of the situation, that some men fall into -- you don't want to raise a scene, you don't want to disturb innocent people, you feel sorry for the man's wife, etc. --

That all flies right out the window if his ways bother your daughter when he acts that way to her.  I have had one situation like that in the past with a brother in the church that I simply had to speak up, for my girl's sake.  He acted very family-level loving to all ladies in the church, all ages; if they were at all close to him, known to him, if they sang together at funerals or whatever -- that's just the way that brother was.

If he was getting any mental jollies out of it, he sure hid them deep.  A woman can usually tell about that kind of stuff, and I never got any "icky vibes" off Brother P.  But, well, the churchy cheek smootchies were just a little too familiar for my young adult daughter, so I had a little talk with Brother P.

So -- I protected her from something that was basically inoffensive, really, but went beyond where she felt good about it.  If it had been a negative thing -- something predatory or masturbatory going on in his mind and oozing out where I could sense it -- I'd have been doubly, triply willing to speak to him.  Or even better, I'd have gotten my husband to handle it -- but if I were alone in the world I would have spoken up, no problem.

BJ Bobbi Jo



Thanks.  Wow, almost everything we wear is considered immodest, lol.   Very eye-opening though.  I've been guilty of some of the things they mentioned.   I'd love to share this to some girl friends but they'd just verbally rip it to shreds and speak of male oppression.  I feel differently.  I feel that we don't have to agree with it because it's men's (some) opinion and they're entitled to their own opinion.  However, this does help me understand why women in the middle east historically have had to dress the way they do. 

Janine,

I'm in good health so there wouldn't be a plausible reason for me to avoid holding hands with others during prayer or whenever the minister or group leader says "grab your neighbors hand and repeat after me or pray or whatever".   Is is just me or have you noticed that this happens an awful LOT in certain church denominations.   Things get very touchy feel-ly with other people.   For the most part, there is no problem but every now and again I get stuck next to a man who has a gleam in his eye or very flirtatious.  This latest incidence surprised me though because this man and his wife had been speaking to me for a few weeks and I didn't sense anything of it until we were forced to be closer in a smaller group and then I noticed he seem to become friendlier and friendlier toward me.  Maybe he was interested all along from a distance but had no way to express it so I never noticed.   Once we were in a group however and we all had to grab hands this gave him an oportunity to take his interest to a level that I was not at ALL comfortable with.     


Back to that link that Bobbi Jo posted, it must be very hard for men during this age of humanity.  I'd read once that most men say that sex is on their mind thru out the day so imagine how much wood is added to their fire by so many young girls who dress sexy, the women that men see at work, on tv shows, reality shows, commercials, diet ads almost always show a woman in a two piece before and after and and breast are magnified, magazines, and in the public in general.    Which raises another question, so why do so many men still look at PORN since they basically have a smorgaborg everyday as soon as they wake up in the morning and turn on the tv or when they get to work?

"The Modesty Survey" is preposterous.  It puts women right back under the thumb of patriarchal male judgments.

Having a set of rules and dos and don'ts for women, so men will not be tempted is ridiculous.  I know men, and they can be tempted to lust even if we all wear robes or burlap sacks.

Quote from: Janet87106 on Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:45:55
"The Modesty Survey" is preposterous.  It puts women right back under the thumb of patriarchal male judgments.

Having a set of rules and dos and don'ts for women, so men will not be tempted is ridiculous.  I know men, and they can be tempted to lust even if we all wear robes or burlap sacks.

I am not sure I would classify testosterone as patriarchial male judgement.  Provocative clothing is so labeled because it is provocative.   Granted, a list of do's and dont's will not cure burlap sackitis - and that can not be avoided by female choices.  But there are definitely some clothing that is designed to draw attention.   And you know it.

I believe the bottom line here...no matter what the men's intentions are...is to let them know your not comfortable with the action.

My grandfather (papa) has always been a ladies man in a non-sexual way. When we do group prayers, if his hand is holding a male hand...he'll squeeze it during the prayer...to signify the "manly hand shake" (he was a marine his whole life)

With women, Papa will do the same thing you mentioned, rub the tops of their hands with his thumb. He's a very honorable man, I haven't seen anyone uncomfortable around him.

You need to do what is right for you. 100 years ago, it was custom for a man to kiss you on the cheek or hand as a sign of honor/chivalry...now that would be considered "too up front and forward" by many. To each their own, just let them know your not a 'touchy' person.

Quote from: Janet87106 on Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:45:55
"The Modesty Survey" is preposterous.  It puts women right back under the thumb of patriarchal male judgments.

Having a set of rules and dos and don'ts for women, so men will not be tempted is ridiculous.  I know men, and they can be tempted to lust even if we all wear robes or burlap sacks.

A comedian once shed light on this very thing. He said "if women wore refrigerator boxes over their clothes men would still find a way to be turned on by them. For example, 'Oh look, that girl is wearing GE, she's really sleezy'." At first I laughed with the thought of 'ridiculous'...then i realized he was probably right.

Quote from: Kharisma on Sun Dec 02, 2007 - 17:23:01
As far as the low or tight fitting clothing, oh my gosh every female under size 18 from age 12-62 seems to dress in snug fitting blouse, tight jeans, or short shorts.  I'd love to hear from the average respectable man on what honestly goes through his mind on a daily basis just on what is thrown at him at every corner.     

I think 3 things actually:
1) Its not nice to tease men with that provocative of attire
2) They look good (in a sexual sense) but they are not mine
3) I have a wife at home and I think I should get there as fast as possible

For a real life example of the above three step process. Please watch the Taxi scene with Violet in "It's a Wonderful Life"

George Bailey - "Well, hey Violet, that is SOME dress"
Violet - "Oh, this old thing? Why I only wear this one when I don't care how I look" *walks away swiveling hips*

Quote from: zoonance on Sat Dec 15, 2007 - 13:28:57

Quote from: Janet87106 on Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:45:55
"The Modesty Survey" is preposterous.  It puts women right back under the thumb of patriarchal male judgments.

Having a set of rules and dos and don'ts for women, so men will not be tempted is ridiculous.  I know men, and they can be tempted to lust even if we all wear robes or burlap sacks.

I am not sure I would classify testosterone as patriarchial male judgement.  Provocative clothing is so labeled because it is provocative.   Granted, a list of do's and dont's will not cure burlap sackitis - and that can not be avoided by female choices.  But there are definitely some clothing that is designed to draw attention.   And you know it.

That is true. many women do dress to get attention, sometimes for the 'power' that it gives them, and then deny it.

Quote from: Janet87106 on Mon Dec 10, 2007 - 14:45:55
"The Modesty Survey" is preposterous.  It puts women right back under the thumb of patriarchal male judgments.

Having a set of rules and dos and don'ts for women, so men will not be tempted is ridiculous.  I know men, and they can be tempted to lust even if we all wear robes or burlap sacks.

I thought that the modesty survey was very intesesting and very honest. I can understand totally the struggles that many guys have and even in church the situation can be little better. We have just left a church becuase of this very subject, some of the women dressing very provocatively and nothing ever being done about it. That is WRONG. Women do have a responsibility to dress modestly as we are told to by God, and if we dont we are responsible for making some guys stumble and we will be held accountable.
if we fight this then we are fighting God and what he tells us to do.

Quote from: sathyan on Fri Feb 06, 2009 - 03:59:36
What you said is correct and in fact i too have noticed this behavior with the husbands and you have to be patient to find some one of great character.
----
Online Dating

Most of the Christian guys that I know are good and godly men. I cant say that I have ever heard of any guy that I know acting like that. I guess that even in Christian circles you may find one or two who flirt a bit but I havent seen it.

However what I HAVE heard more of is some Chrstian women acting innapropriately towards other womens husbands, so it can go both ways.This happened to my husband and I on a Christian teaching week that we went on recently, when one of the women who was single gave the men lot of attention, touching etc but  little to the women there. She would do this even if their wives were sitting there also. She generally ignored them and concentrated all of her attention on the men. She had an issue with her father and so wanted male attention, but it wasnt appropriate behaviour, and she was old enough to know better.

MY husband was quite embarrased by it, tried to aviod her as much as he could, and actually spoke to her about it after a few days, asking her if she realised what she was doing. She did I think, but it made me feel very uneasy and annoyed and ruined the week for me.
I know  many people in my family and those I have met, who have lost their spouses through affairs so am well aware that there are many out there who have no hesitation about stealing someone elses spouse, It is disgusting and I have only comtempt for those who do this or who even flirt with someone who they are not married to.For a  Christian it is even worse as we should know better.