Christian Forums

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 08:20:44


I would like to ask you a question. Between the Catholics and the Protestants does God see as the worst sinners. You know I don't think God sees this as funny. The water is muddy on both sides of the river.

I see you still want to minimize the sins of the RCC while you point fingers back at the protestants.  Do you not think there are good charitable Protestants. This is a childish game. I well guarantee that in that day God will not see Catholic Protestant but as scripture teaches every one will be accountable for his or her own walk.

The inquisition and the crusaders was no small thing and not just at the hands of  few bad men but a very corrupt and wicked church system that was not ordained of Christ.

All men are sinners.  That is irrelevant to the authority of the Church.

Jesus started a Church.  He promised to be with the Church until the end of the age and he promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all Truth.

Jesus keeps his promises.


Jesus did not promise that his followers would be sinless.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 08:24:48

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 08:20:44


I would like to ask you a question. Between the Catholics and the Protestants does God see as the worst sinners. You know I don't think God sees this as funny. The water is muddy on both sides of the river.

I see you still want to minimize the sins of the RCC while you point fingers back at the protestants.  Do you not think there are good charitable Protestants. This is a childish game. I well guarantee that in that day God will not see Catholic Protestant but as scripture teaches every one will be accountable for his or her own walk.

The inquisition and the crusaders was no small thing and not just at the hands of  few bad men but a very corrupt and wicked church system that was not ordained of Christ.

All men are sinners.  That is irrelevant to the authority of the Church.

Jesus started a Church.  He promised to be with the Church until the end of the age and he promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all Truth.

Jesus keeps his promises.


Jesus did not promise that his followers would be sinless.

Isn't that the point.

And yes Jesus did promise to be with his church to the end of the age. so then who is his church but those who believe and love him and yes by his holy Spirit  he will guide his church into all truth

And yes Jesus keeps his promises. yet even the world that knows not Christ knows whats good and evil. How much more so those who say they do know Him. There shall be none more accountable then those who are of the leadership.


Do you think the Lord will just turn a blinded eye at the evil of leadership that says they represent Christ and should know better. A leadership that never truly repents of evil deeds it has done. Yet rather whitewash themselves and points to the evil at others.

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 04:42:17

Quote from: John 10:10 on Mon Nov 22, 2010 - 17:17:05

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Nov 22, 2010 - 14:19:13

Quote from: John 10:10 on Mon Nov 22, 2010 - 13:48:28

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Nov 22, 2010 - 13:33:52
What are you talking about? That is not how Christ set things up at all. Christ gave the Gospel to the disciples and the first members of the Church. It was the charge of the Disciples, and those they chartered, to go out and spread the world. It was the task of the world to recieve that message.

Chester explained it perfectly with the prayers of Christ. You really need to stop trying to rearrange Christ's words and applying them to all believers when He was referring only to the Apostles.  

Apparently I'm talking about things you can't understand or receive.  The Reformers understood it, and carried forth God's truth to the present day.  So did the Madame Guyon's of the RCC down thru the ages, but when this happened, they locked her up in prison, rather than let her influence affect the RCC hierarchy.  Try reading her authbiograpry somethime.  It will transform your life.

Who cares about the man made beliefs of the Reformers?

Christ Himself set up the system of His Church, its leaders and hierchy. These "Paul's of this world" formed their own way of doing things because they could not trust in God to preserve His Church when evil try to destroy it.

You really need to stop relying on the Reformers so much and rely on Christ and the Disciples He handpicked. You guys act like you hav ethe key to all the doors when in reality the only fruits that the Reformation has brought forth is chaotic divisions on the very essential truths of the faith and violence. Protestant denomination exist in the thousands. So many of them teach different things in regards to the divinity of Jesus, the afterlife and even the requisits of salvation. That is all protestantism has to show for itself doctrinally after nearly 400 years of living by the teachings of the so called "Pauls of this world."    

Please show us anything that Peter, Paul or John said in these verses in God's Word that requires someone within the RCC or any other organization/group on earth to correctly explain and minister God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ to someone else?

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins ; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart "-that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself ; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

This is God's truth in God's Word that the Reformers proclaimed, and the RCC suppressed from the common man for 1500 years!

Ok among the "common man" was there not a huge epidemic of illiteracy? Is it also true that when the printing press was invented that the Church ebgan to print copies of Scared Scripture? Do you know how the Word was given to the common man before and a little after Scared Scripture was established, through word of mouth or tradition. Scared Tradition. You know I find it funny. You guys talk so much about the Church being so obsolete and evil when Christ spread His gospel soley by word of mouth. I find it funny that Christ never wrote any documents Himself. I find it funny that He trusted man enough to record His gospel of the hearts of the disciples but you prefer paper.lol I'm sorry its just funny. Christ Himself ordained the disciples and they organized the Church. Christ spoke and spoke and spoke again to the congregation of believers, the ekkelsia in parables concealing the secret of His Truth, but the one moment He speaks to the Disciples solely every protestant swears by heaven that Christ meant what He said in private for every believer. A disciples asks, "Lord why is it that you always speak to the people in parables" Christ replies, " For one alone are meant to be revealed the mysteries of the kingdom."

Hundreds of years later the greatest fruit of the Church is Scared Scripture. Now you hate the Church and but love her seed.lol The funniest part is that you label reformers like Luther as heroic when he petitioned to "edit" out certain words from scripture that seemed to contradict his views. Or wait forget Calvin who taught that salvation was only for the elect which were preordained beofre the establishing of the cosmos. The Catholic Church is so apostate and antichrist but the religio politico English Angilican Church is responsible for the Salem Witchtrails and giving pagans the Hortus Decorum. Mormons teach that the Native Americans are offsrping of Satan literally. Jehovah Witnesses teach that Jesus was merely man.

Protestants look at catholic history and see only the Inquisition, crusades and the sins of a few corrupt men. They always conveniently forget the fact that the Ctaholic Church is present in every hostile environment in the world providing free helathcare, charity and spreading God's Word.

Protesants look at their own history and always overlook the fact that there Bibles are incomplete collections of the ordained library of Scared Scripture. I just find it funny. Protestants always look at what God says and does and say,"No He must have it this way so this is how I'm going to o it."lol

So much chaos. It is so comical.

As usual, you did not answer the question Scripturally!  Look at the Scriptures proclaimed by Peter, Paul and John, and show us anything that Peter, Paul or John said in these verses in God's Word that requires someone within the RCC or any other organization/group on earth to correctly explain and minister God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ to someone else?

Quote from: chestertonrules on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 08:23:07

Quote from: John 10:10 on Mon Nov 22, 2010 - 13:22:21

No leader should want to be a RCC leader, denomination leader, local church leader, or home group leader without authorization.

The leaders within the Church comprised of all true Christians everywhere who are spiritually re-born by the Holy Spirit thru faith in the Lord Jesus Christ first are called by God to carry forth His truth.  

Then they find men who have carried forth God's faithful truth, and learn from them (2 Tim 2:2).  For others this means going to seminary, then submit their learning credentials to those they want to serve with.  

2 Tim 2:2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Not all Christians are the leaders of the Church.   Jesus appointed some as apostles.

These apostles approved others to carry on the message.  Other followers of Christ were not authorized to teach.

You can't just get a group of Christians together and start teaching a different gospel than the authorized teachers have taught. 

Never said all Christians are leaders of the Church, just those "who are spiritually re-born by the Holy Spirit thru faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and are then called by God to carry forth His truth."  

Maybe you would like to answer the question I posed to LH that he would not answer Scripturally?

QuotePlease show us anything that Peter, Paul or John said in these verses in God's Word that requires someone within the RCC or any other organization/group on earth to correctly explain and minister God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ to someone else?

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins ; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart "-that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself ; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

This is God's truth in God's Word that the Reformers proclaimed, and the RCC suppressed from the common man for 1500 years!

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 10:11:58


Never said all Christians are leaders of the Church, just those "who are spiritually re-born by the Holy Spirit thru faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and are then called by God to carry forth His truth."  

Maybe you would like to answer the question I posed to LH that he would not answer Scripturally?

Quote

Christians that are not appointed by the successors of the apostles are self appointed leaders, and therefore, they have no teaching authority.


Acts 15

23 With them they sent the following letter:
   The apostles and elders, your brothers,
   To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
   Greetings.

24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

John 17
18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
    20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

2 Tim 2:2
And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

1 John 4
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matthew 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

For much of its life, the RCC placed itself as mediator between God and man, proclaiming that because of its apostolic succession, it was the only means whereby God saved sinners and imparted God's life to the people.

In so doing, because it considered itself infallible, never allowing un-Scriptural beliefs/practices into the RCC, the RCC became a law unto itself, proclaiming that its power and control were given directly by God, thus end of story.

When the truth light began to shine upon the Reformers starting about 600 years ago, they saw this truth of Scripture,

1 Tim 2:5-6  For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

And this Scriptural truth has transformed the life of the Body of Christ (the Church) ever since. 

Does God then need leaders in the Body of Christ?  Yes, He does, for Paul went on to say this,

1 Tim 2:7  For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying ) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Eph 4:11-12  And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ.

Does God do this ONLY thru "apostolic succession

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 14:16:54

For much of its life, the RCC placed itself as mediator between God and man, proclaiming that because of its apostolic succession, it was the only means whereby God saved sinners and imparted God's life to the people.

Jesus started the Church. The Church didn't start itself.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 10:01:26

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 04:42:17

Quote from: John 10:10 on Mon Nov 22, 2010 - 17:17:05

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Nov 22, 2010 - 14:19:13

Quote from: John 10:10 on Mon Nov 22, 2010 - 13:48:28

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Nov 22, 2010 - 13:33:52
What are you talking about? That is not how Christ set things up at all. Christ gave the Gospel to the disciples and the first members of the Church. It was the charge of the Disciples, and those they chartered, to go out and spread the world. It was the task of the world to recieve that message.

Chester explained it perfectly with the prayers of Christ. You really need to stop trying to rearrange Christ's words and applying them to all believers when He was referring only to the Apostles.  

Apparently I'm talking about things you can't understand or receive.  The Reformers understood it, and carried forth God's truth to the present day.  So did the Madame Guyon's of the RCC down thru the ages, but when this happened, they locked her up in prison, rather than let her influence affect the RCC hierarchy.  Try reading her authbiograpry somethime.  It will transform your life.

Who cares about the man made beliefs of the Reformers?

Christ Himself set up the system of His Church, its leaders and hierchy. These "Paul's of this world" formed their own way of doing things because they could not trust in God to preserve His Church when evil try to destroy it.

You really need to stop relying on the Reformers so much and rely on Christ and the Disciples He handpicked. You guys act like you hav ethe key to all the doors when in reality the only fruits that the Reformation has brought forth is chaotic divisions on the very essential truths of the faith and violence. Protestant denomination exist in the thousands. So many of them teach different things in regards to the divinity of Jesus, the afterlife and even the requisits of salvation. That is all protestantism has to show for itself doctrinally after nearly 400 years of living by the teachings of the so called "Pauls of this world."    

Please show us anything that Peter, Paul or John said in these verses in God's Word that requires someone within the RCC or any other organization/group on earth to correctly explain and minister God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ to someone else?

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins ; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart "-that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself ; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

This is God's truth in God's Word that the Reformers proclaimed, and the RCC suppressed from the common man for 1500 years!

Ok among the "common man" was there not a huge epidemic of illiteracy? Is it also true that when the printing press was invented that the Church ebgan to print copies of Scared Scripture? Do you know how the Word was given to the common man before and a little after Scared Scripture was established, through word of mouth or tradition. Scared Tradition. You know I find it funny. You guys talk so much about the Church being so obsolete and evil when Christ spread His gospel soley by word of mouth. I find it funny that Christ never wrote any documents Himself. I find it funny that He trusted man enough to record His gospel of the hearts of the disciples but you prefer paper.lol I'm sorry its just funny. Christ Himself ordained the disciples and they organized the Church. Christ spoke and spoke and spoke again to the congregation of believers, the ekkelsia in parables concealing the secret of His Truth, but the one moment He speaks to the Disciples solely every protestant swears by heaven that Christ meant what He said in private for every believer. A disciples asks, "Lord why is it that you always speak to the people in parables" Christ replies, " For one alone are meant to be revealed the mysteries of the kingdom."

Hundreds of years later the greatest fruit of the Church is Scared Scripture. Now you hate the Church and but love her seed.lol The funniest part is that you label reformers like Luther as heroic when he petitioned to "edit" out certain words from scripture that seemed to contradict his views. Or wait forget Calvin who taught that salvation was only for the elect which were preordained beofre the establishing of the cosmos. The Catholic Church is so apostate and antichrist but the religio politico English Angilican Church is responsible for the Salem Witchtrails and giving pagans the Hortus Decorum. Mormons teach that the Native Americans are offsrping of Satan literally. Jehovah Witnesses teach that Jesus was merely man.

Protestants look at catholic history and see only the Inquisition, crusades and the sins of a few corrupt men. They always conveniently forget the fact that the Ctaholic Church is present in every hostile environment in the world providing free helathcare, charity and spreading God's Word.

Protesants look at their own history and always overlook the fact that there Bibles are incomplete collections of the ordained library of Scared Scripture. I just find it funny. Protestants always look at what God says and does and say,"No He must have it this way so this is how I'm going to o it."lol

So much chaos. It is so comical.

As usual, you did not answer the question Scripturally!  Look at the Scriptures proclaimed by Peter, Paul and John, and show us anything that Peter, Paul or John said in these verses in God's Word that requires someone within the RCC or any other organization/group on earth to correctly explain and minister God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ to someone else?

Whoa whoa I will not take the bait.

You dispute the commission to spread the gospel? Really? Are you seriously asking me to provide scriptural backing for it?

The RCC does not claim that it only holds the key to salvation. It claims that it alone holds the fullness of Truth and that it alone holds the authority to teach. So there's no scriptural support to back up your false claims.

Do you dispute the fact that the Apostles or those commissioned by them are the only ones who taught and led in the early church?

Quote from: chestertonrules on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 14:38:37

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 14:16:54

For much of its life, the RCC placed itself as mediator between God and man, proclaiming that because of its apostolic succession, it was the only means whereby God saved sinners and imparted God's life to the people.

Jesus started the Church. The Church didn't start itself.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 

When Jesus spoke the words to His disciples in John 20:23, He was reminding them and us of the truth He spoke in Matt 6:14-15,

"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

Jesus was not giving the power to forgive man's sins to His disciples, or to any apostolic succession of men.  Only our heavenly Father can forgive our sins when sinners repent and trust in the blood of Jesus to cover their sins.  When any person, disciple, Believer or not, deliberately chooses to NOT FORGIVE others their trespasses, our heavenly Father will not forgive us our sins.

Protestants will forever disagree with the RCC that the Church is built on the back of Peter and his supposed successors.  Protestants will forever proclaim that the Church comprised of all true Christians everywhere who are spiritually re-born by the Holy Spirit thru faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that everyone can draw near to God because "the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom" (Mark 15:38). 

Hebrews 4:16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

The RCC believes and lives as though only its priests can enter the temple and the the holy of holies for the people.

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:02:13

Quote from: chestertonrules on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 14:38:37

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 14:16:54

For much of its life, the RCC placed itself as mediator between God and man, proclaiming that because of its apostolic succession, it was the only means whereby God saved sinners and imparted God's life to the people.

Jesus started the Church. The Church didn't start itself.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 

When Jesus spoke the words to His disciples in John 20:23, He was reminding them and us of the truth He spoke in Matt 6:14-15,

"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

Jesus was not giving the power to forgive man's sins to His disciples, or to any apostolic succession of men.  Only our heavenly Father can forgive our sins when sinners repent and trust in the blood of Jesus to cover their sins.  When any person, disciple, Believer or not, deliberately chooses to NOT FORGIVE others their trespasses, our heavenly Father will not forgive us our sins.

Protestants will forever disagree with the RCC that the Church is built on the back of Peter and his supposed successors.  Protestants will forever proclaim that the Church comprised of all true Christians everywhere who are spiritually re-born by the Holy Spirit thru faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that everyone can draw near to God because "the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom" (Mark 15:38). 

Hebrews 4:16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

The RCC believes and lives as though only its priests can enter the temple and the the holy of holies for the people.

Again another lie.

Catholics believe that as a catholic they are meant to uphold the standards of Christ which the Church also holds to be its own. So as a catholic when one sins they sin against not just heaven but against the Church. To seek forgiveness of the Father catholics believe as we all do that we can go before Him in a quoet place privately. However to recieve forgiveness of the Church that they have porrly represented by sinning they seek out the priest who is the frontline of Church authority.

Protestants have the same concept. If I get drunk and go out driving and kill a four our of a family of five, I seek forgiveness not just of God but of those who I have offended as well. I go to the surviving memeber of the family and  beg their forgiveness for my offenses. The Catholic Church teaches that because they are one family on one accord that when they sin the world will view them not as individuals but as a part of a whole and therefore each part is accountable to the other parts as a whole.

Its actually pretty scriptural. When one brother sins confront the brother and if he will not listen gather two or three more. If he will still not listen take it to the Church. If he will still not listen consider him a pagan.

This is saying that we are accountable to each other because we together make up one Body and therefore our actions affect how others view the collective.

Like I said do some more legitimate research and quit looking a the shallow end of a vast sea of beliefs. You might begin to understand why I feel my fellows protestants are so thickheaded and basically out of line.

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 15:19:29
Do you dispute the fact that the Apostles or those commissioned by them are the only ones who taught and led in the early church?   

No, I don't dispute that.  But when the Apostles basically packed it in in Jerusalem, not carrying out the great commission (Matt 28:18-20) commanded by Jesus, God allowed great persecution to fall upon on them at Jerusalem, and they had to leave or perish.  In the process God raised up Paul, Barnabus, Mark, Timothy, Apolos, and many many others for the last 2000 years to carry out the great commission, and leading the Body of Christ in paths of righteousness for His name's sake. 

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:14:05

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 15:19:29
Do you dispute the fact that the Apostles or those commissioned by them are the only ones who taught and led in the early church?   

No, I don't dispute that.  But when the Apostles basically packed it in in Jerusalem, not carrying out the great commission (Matt 28:18-20) commanded by Jesus, God allowed great persecution to fall upon on them at Jerusalem, and they had to leave or perish.  In the process God raised up Paul, Barnabus, Mark, Timothy, Apolos, and many many others for the last 2000 years to carry out the great commission, and leading the Body of Christ in paths of righteousness for His name's sake. 

But you see they did carry on the Great Commission. Peter started church in Antioch and Rome. The disciples spread the gospel far. They established all over the place. There are seven great patriarchates that have its roots in a disciple. Look them up and see for yourself brother. The disciples didn't stop in Jerusalem and they didn't stop after they died. They choose others to carry on in their place before they died. Seriously though look up the seven great patriarchates and you will see how far the apostles went beyond Jerusalem.

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:12:37
Again another lie.

Catholics believe that as a catholic they are meant to uphold the standards of Christ which the Church also holds to be its own. So as a catholic when one sins they sin against not just heaven but against the Church. To seek forgiveness of the Father catholics believe as we all do that we can go before Him in a quoet place privately. However to recieve forgiveness of the Church that they have porrly represented by sinning they seek out the priest who is the frontline of Church authority.

Protestants have the same concept. If I get drunk and go out driving and kill a four our of a family of five, I seek forgiveness not just of God but of those who I have offended as well. I go to the surviving memeber of the family and  beg their forgiveness for my offenses. The Catholic Church teaches that because they are one family on one accord that when they sin the world will view them not as individuals but as a part of a whole and therefore each part is accountable to the other parts as a whole.

Its actually pretty scriptural. When one brother sins confront the brother and if he will not listen gather two or three more. If he will still not listen take it to the Church. If he will still not listen consider him a pagan.

This is saying that we are accountable to each other because we together make up one Body and therefore our actions affect how others view the collective.

Like I said do some more legitimate research and quit looking a the shallow end of a vast sea of beliefs. You might begin to understand why I feel my fellows protestants are so thickheaded and basically out of line.  

All sin is basically sin against God.  When we sin against our fellow man, we go to them directly and ask for forgiveness, and then make restitution as needed, not to a priest.

By committing the same sins over and over again, and then going to a priest over and over every week makes confession of sin a mockery before God.

David declares this in Psa 19:13,

Also keep back Your servant from presumptuous sins; Let them not rule over me; Then I will be blameless, And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.

Presumptuous sins are sins that we deliberately commit, thinking we can always go to God or a priest and receive forgiveness.  What happens when our hearts are hardened, and we no longer seek God's forgiveness?  What happens when Catholics no longer go to a priest and confess their sins?  

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:21:47

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:14:05

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 15:19:29
Do you dispute the fact that the Apostles or those commissioned by them are the only ones who taught and led in the early church?    

No, I don't dispute that.  But when the Apostles basically packed it in in Jerusalem, not carrying out the great commission (Matt 28:18-20) commanded by Jesus, God allowed great persecution to fall upon on them at Jerusalem, and they had to leave or perish.  In the process God raised up Paul, Barnabus, Mark, Timothy, Apolos, and many many others for the last 2000 years to carry out the great commission, and leading the Body of Christ in paths of righteousness for His name's sake.  

But you see they did carry on the Great Commission. Peter started church in Antioch and Rome. The disciples spread the gospel far. They established all over the place. There are seven great patriarchates that have its roots in a disciple. Look them up and see for yourself brother. The disciples didn't stop in Jerusalem and they didn't stop after they died. They choose others to carry on in their place before they died. Seriously though look up the seven great patriarchates and you will see how far the apostles went beyond Jerusalem.  

My Bible says that Stephen started the church at Antioch (Acts 11:19), and Paul the church at Rome (Acts 23:11).

If you want to read how God kept the Gospel of Christ alive and well in the lives of those He called to Himself apart from the RCC, read "The Torch of the testimony" by John W Kennedy.  

If you want to read how God kept the Gospel of Christ alive and well in the lives of those He called to Himself within the RCC, read "Jeanne Guyon: An Autobiography."

L H states

You dispute the commission to spread the gospel? Really? Are you seriously asking me to provide scriptural backing for it?

The RCC does not claim that it only holds the key to salvation. It claims that it alone holds the fullness of Truth and that it alone holds the authority to teach. So there's no scriptural support to back up your false claims.

Do you dispute the fact that the Apostles or those commissioned by them are the only ones who taught and led in the early church?



Mike
I know you were not speaking to me but if i may say, i have no dispute on who was commissioned spread the Gospel  and that they were the only ones who taught. My problem in your comments is the RCC only having the fullness of truth. I have asked this before but no one answers. Please explain why you say that only those of the RCC has the fullness truth and what is this fullness of truth you say only RC's can have.


This is an RC slicky. Its called changing their stand when it fits better. It is well known that the RCC once held to the claim they were the only way of salvation. As i have said before this stand was only changed recently and now you say the RCC never claimed to be the way of salvation but only RC's have the fullness.  We don't even know how you interpret this and Im not so sure you do but you can make a statement that know one can interpret where it comes from or what it really is and why only the RCC has it. Where is this stated in the New testament ?

John 1: 15,17 states That the fullness of grace came by the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the fullness of Gods grace and all who have received him have received of that fullness

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

So now what is this fullness and what does this make the protestants that have recieved Christ by that same measure of grace


Your turn

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:02:13
John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."[/b][/u]

When Jesus spoke the words to His disciples in John 20:23, He was reminding them and us of the truth He spoke in Matt 6:14-15,

"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

Jesus was not giving the power to forgive man's sins to His disciples, or to any apostolic succession of men. 
[/quote]


You deny the crystal clear words of scripture.

Your interpretation has nothing to do with what Jesus said.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 21:49:20

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:02:13
John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."[/b][/u]

When Jesus spoke the words to His disciples in John 20:23, He was reminding them and us of the truth He spoke in Matt 6:14-15,

"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

Jesus was not giving the power to forgive man's sins to His disciples, or to any apostolic succession of men. 

You deny the crystal clear words of scripture.

Your interpretation has nothing to do with what Jesus said.
[/quote]

I have question Chesterton. If then a man is not repentant. yet the clergy forgives him, is he forgiven?

Quote from: chestertonrules on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 21:49:20

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:02:13
John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."[/b][/u]

When Jesus spoke the words to His disciples in John 20:23, He was reminding them and us of the truth He spoke in Matt 6:14-15,

"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

Jesus was not giving the power to forgive man's sins to His disciples, or to any apostolic succession of men. 

You deny the crystal clear words of scripture.

Your interpretation has nothing to do with what Jesus said.

You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.  Only God has the power to forgive sins. 

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world !

1 John 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Even the ungodly scribes and Pharisees knew that God alone forgives sin.

Luke 5:21 The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this man who speaks blasphemies ? Who can forgive sins, but God alone ?"
22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts ?
23 "Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins have been forgiven you,' or to say, 'Get up and walk '?
24 "But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"-He said to the paralytic -"I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home."
25 Immediately he got up before them, and picked up what he had been lying on, and went home glorifying God.
26 They were all struck with astonishment and began glorifying God ; and they were filled with fear, saying, "We have seen remarkable things today."

When man forgives others their sins and we pray for sinners, it does two things:

(1) God forgives us our sins
(2) It allows the Holy Spirit to bring the sinner under conviction of their sins

Then sinners must come to the foot of the cross and receive for themselves God's salvation that's in Christ Jesus.

If some want to believe that forgiveness of their sins comes from man or the RCC, that is their choice, but the Lord will say differently when they stand before Him on judgment day.

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 08:31:15

Quote from: chestertonrules on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 21:49:20

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:02:13
John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."[/b][/u]

When Jesus spoke the words to His disciples in John 20:23, He was reminding them and us of the truth He spoke in Matt 6:14-15,

"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

Jesus was not giving the power to forgive man's sins to His disciples, or to any apostolic succession of men. 

You deny the crystal clear words of scripture.

Your interpretation has nothing to do with what Jesus said.

I have question Chesterton. If then a man is not repentant. yet the clergy forgives him, is he forgiven?
[/quote]

Contrition is necessary for forgiveness.

Here's a good summary:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm

Quote from: John 10:10 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 09:14:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 21:49:20

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:02:13
John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."[/b][/u]

When Jesus spoke the words to His disciples in John 20:23, He was reminding them and us of the truth He spoke in Matt 6:14-15,

"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

Jesus was not giving the power to forgive man's sins to His disciples, or to any apostolic succession of men. 

You deny the crystal clear words of scripture.

Your interpretation has nothing to do with what Jesus said.

You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.  Only God has the power to forgive sins. 

[

TRue enough.  God also has the power to appoint subordinates to act in his name.

Only God forgives sin

1441 Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation."42 The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making his appeal" through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."43

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 09:16:59

Quote from: John 10:10 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 09:14:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 21:49:20

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:02:13
John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

When Jesus spoke the words to His disciples in John 20:23, He was reminding them and us of the truth He spoke in Matt 6:14-15,

"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

Jesus was not giving the power to forgive man's sins to His disciples, or to any apostolic succession of men. 

You deny the crystal clear words of scripture.

Your interpretation has nothing to do with what Jesus said.

You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.  Only God has the power to forgive sins. 

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world !

1 John 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Even the ungodly scribes and Pharisees knew that God alone forgives sin.

Luke 5:21 The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this man who speaks blasphemies ? Who can forgive sins, but God alone ?"
22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts ?
23 "Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins have been forgiven you,' or to say, 'Get up and walk '?
24 "But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"-He said to the paralytic -"I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home."
25 Immediately he got up before them, and picked up what he had been lying on, and went home glorifying God.
26 They were all struck with astonishment and began glorifying God ; and they were filled with fear, saying, "We have seen remarkable things today."

When man forgives others their sins and we pray for sinners, it does two things:

(1) God forgives us our sins
(2) It allows the Holy Spirit to bring the sinner under conviction of their sins

Then sinners must come to the foot of the cross and receive for themselves God's salvation that's in Christ Jesus.

If some want to believe that forgiveness of their sins comes from man or the RCC, that is their choice, but the Lord will say differently when they stand before Him on judgment day.

True enough.  God also has the power to appoint subordinates to act in his name.

Only God forgives sin

1441 Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation."42 The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making his appeal" through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."43

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm 

We will see how well this works for you and others that believe this on Judgment Day. 

As for me and my house, we trust ONLY in the blood of Jesus to cover our sins, assurance that our names have not been erased from the Lamb's book of Life, and the Lord will confess our name before our heavenly Father and before His angels (Rev 3:5).

Quote from: John 10:10 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 09:59:20

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 09:16:59

Quote from: John 10:10 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 09:14:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 21:49:20

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:02:13
John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

When Jesus spoke the words to His disciples in John 20:23, He was reminding them and us of the truth He spoke in Matt 6:14-15,

"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

Jesus was not giving the power to forgive man's sins to His disciples, or to any apostolic succession of men. 

You deny the crystal clear words of scripture.

Your interpretation has nothing to do with what Jesus said.

You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.  Only God has the power to forgive sins. 

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world !

1 John 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Even the ungodly scribes and Pharisees knew that God alone forgives sin.

Luke 5:21 The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this man who speaks blasphemies ? Who can forgive sins, but God alone ?"
22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts ?
23 "Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins have been forgiven you,' or to say, 'Get up and walk '?
24 "But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"-He said to the paralytic -"I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home."
25 Immediately he got up before them, and picked up what he had been lying on, and went home glorifying God.
26 They were all struck with astonishment and began glorifying God ; and they were filled with fear, saying, "We have seen remarkable things today."

When man forgives others their sins and we pray for sinners, it does two things:

(1) God forgives us our sins
(2) It allows the Holy Spirit to bring the sinner under conviction of their sins

Then sinners must come to the foot of the cross and receive for themselves God's salvation that's in Christ Jesus.

If some want to believe that forgiveness of their sins comes from man or the RCC, that is their choice, but the Lord will say differently when they stand before Him on judgment day.

True enough.  God also has the power to appoint subordinates to act in his name.

Only God forgives sin

1441 Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation."42 The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making his appeal" through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."43

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm 

We will see how well this works for you and others that believe this on Judgment Day. 

As for me and my house, we trust ONLY in the blood of Jesus to cover our sins, assurance that our names have not been erased from the Lamb's book of Life, and the Lord will confess our name before our heavenly Father and before His angels (Rev 3:5).

I have one more question for Chesterton. Lets say a man is far away from any Bishop or priest but he is hurt and knows he is dying. In his final moments he has no one but Christ to absolve him for his sins. So he calls upon the name of Jesus and not just lightly but with a true broken Spirit. Will he find forgiveness even if there was no priest there for him. How many die without absolution yet you will still find them in heaven?

When the Reformers saw the light of God's truth that "there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 10:15:05


I have one more question for Chesterton. Lets say a man is far away from any Bishop or priest but he is hurt and knows he is dying. In his final moments he has no one but Christ to absolve him for his sins. So he calls upon the name of Jesus and not just lightly but with a true broken Spirit. Will he find forgiveness even if there was no priest there for him. How many die without absolution yet you will still find them in heaven?

One must determine to obey all God's commandments, and one of those commandments is that one must confess all mortal sins committed after baptism to a duly authorized priest. If there is no priest to be had, then God accepts the will for the deed. He will not accept the will for the deed if there is a duly authorized priest available. Remember the act of perfect contrition always takes away all sins immediately. 

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 12:04:23

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 10:15:05
I have one more question for Chesterton. Lets say a man is far away from any Bishop or priest but he is hurt and knows he is dying. In his final moments he has no one but Christ to absolve him for his sins. So he calls upon the name of Jesus and not just lightly but with a true broken Spirit. Will he find forgiveness even if there was no priest there for him. How many die without absolution yet you will still find them in heaven?

One must determine to obey all God's commandments, and one of those commandments is that one must confess all mortal sins committed after baptism to a duly authorized priest. If there is no priest to be had, then God accepts the will for the deed. He will not accept the will for the deed if there is a duly authorized priest available. Remember the act of perfect contrition always takes away all sins immediately. 

This may be RCC dogma, but not Scriptural truth. 

Since "the act of perfect contrition (to God) always takes away all sins immediately," what more can any Bishop or priest do for you than God can do for you?

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 09:16:59

Quote from: John 10:10 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 09:14:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 21:49:20

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:02:13
John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."[/b][/u]

When Jesus spoke the words to His disciples in John 20:23, He was reminding them and us of the truth He spoke in Matt 6:14-15,

"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

Jesus was not giving the power to forgive man's sins to His disciples, or to any apostolic succession of men. 

You deny the crystal clear words of scripture.

Your interpretation has nothing to do with what Jesus said.

You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.  Only God has the power to forgive sins. 

[

TRue enough.  God also has the power to appoint subordinates to act in his name.

I suppose, although what is undeniable is that He never appointed the RCC to do anything for anything in the name of anyone; He never so much as ever MENTIONED it. 

Nor did He ever so delegate or authorize or appoint the clergy correctly ordained by the Catholic denomination (and perhaps also the EO); He never so much as even MENTIONED them or it.

What Jesus DID do is tell all the disciples to pray, ".... forgive us our sins AS WE OURSELVES FORGIVE THOSE who sin against us."   If He is not telling us to forgive sins, then by praying this petition, we are asking God to NOT forgive us because we cannot forgive others.

So, what IS clear is that all disciples not only may forgive but our forgiveness hinges on such.  And that He never limited forgivensess to priests ordained into the RCC denomination.

Now, I have no idea what this has to do with the heads of any specific denomination:  mine, the RCC, the LDS or any other.





.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 12:04:23

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 10:15:05


I have one more question for Chesterton. Lets say a man is far away from any Bishop or priest but he is hurt and knows he is dying. In his final moments he has no one but Christ to absolve him for his sins. So he calls upon the name of Jesus and not just lightly but with a true broken Spirit. Will he find forgiveness even if there was no priest there for him. How many die without absolution yet you will still find them in heaven?

One must determine to obey all God's commandments, and one of those commandments is that one must confess all mortal sins committed after baptism to a duly authorized priest. If there is no priest to be had, then God accepts the will for the deed. He will not accept the will for the deed if there is a duly authorized priest available. Remember the act of perfect contrition always takes away all sins immediately. 

I have one other question then. 

Heb 4:16

3 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Listen if one feels he needs to to to confessio or have absolution because he was taught this. thenlet Him do so. but this formula is not perfect in every case. It is Godly sorrow that works repentance. in the verse above it states that our sins are naked before the Lord who know all things about us personally. We are then instructed that we are now able to come to the Lord Jesus and his throne of grace without fear so we can obtain mercy and forgiveness in our time of need.

It says nothing about that one must go to the Priest to confess his sin. I find i have to almost pray daily over my weaknesses. Many time the lord lets me know that he hears me when I read my devotional and it states just what I needed as if the Lord was sitting next to me. I am always awed when he does this.
so it you want to make everything fit some perfect set of rules you will find that grace goes far beyond you confessional booth. And having to do acts of contrition.

Read Davids prayer in Psalms 51.

1  Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceivea me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a rightb spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltinessc, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. 16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

1  Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceivea me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a rightb spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltinessc, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. 16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

The Holy Bible  : King James Version. electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version. Bellingham WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995, S. Ps 51:1-19

Quote from: John 10:10 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 14:07:33

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 12:04:23

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 10:15:05
I have one more question for Chesterton. Lets say a man is far away from any Bishop or priest but he is hurt and knows he is dying. In his final moments he has no one but Christ to absolve him for his sins. So he calls upon the name of Jesus and not just lightly but with a true broken Spirit. Will he find forgiveness even if there was no priest there for him. How many die without absolution yet you will still find them in heaven?

One must determine to obey all God's commandments, and one of those commandments is that one must confess all mortal sins committed after baptism to a duly authorized priest. If there is no priest to be had, then God accepts the will for the deed. He will not accept the will for the deed if there is a duly authorized priest available. Remember the act of perfect contrition always takes away all sins immediately. 

This may be RCC dogma, but not Scriptural truth. 

Since "the act of perfect contrition (to God) always takes away all sins immediately," what more can any Bishop or priest do for you than God can do for you?

A priest can forgive sins that are confessed with imperfect contrition.

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 17:26:37

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 12:04:23

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 10:15:05


I have one more question for Chesterton. Lets say a man is far away from any Bishop or priest but he is hurt and knows he is dying. In his final moments he has no one but Christ to absolve him for his sins. So he calls upon the name of Jesus and not just lightly but with a true broken Spirit. Will he find forgiveness even if there was no priest there for him. How many die without absolution yet you will still find them in heaven?

One must determine to obey all God's commandments, and one of those commandments is that one must confess all mortal sins committed after baptism to a duly authorized priest. If there is no priest to be had, then God accepts the will for the deed. He will not accept the will for the deed if there is a duly authorized priest available. Remember the act of perfect contrition always takes away all sins immediately. 

I have one other question then. 

Heb 4:16

3 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Listen if one feels he needs to to to confessio or have absolution because he was taught this. thenlet Him do so. but this formula is not perfect in every case. It is Godly sorrow that works repentance. in the verse above it states that our sins are naked before the Lord who know all things about us personally. We are then instructed that we are now able to come to the Lord Jesus and his throne of grace without fear so we can obtain mercy and forgiveness in our time of need.

It says nothing about that one must go to the Priest to confess his sin. I find i have to almost pray daily over my weaknesses. Many time the lord lets me know that he hears me when I read my devotional and it states just what I needed as if the Lord was sitting next to me. I am always awed when he does this.
so it you want to make everything fit some perfect set of rules you will find that grace goes far beyond you confessional booth. And having to do acts of contrition.

Read Davids prayer in Psalms 51.

1  Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceivea me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a rightb spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltinessc, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. 16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

I didn't see a question in there.

Also, you are ignoring this:

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 20:44:24

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 17:26:37

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 12:04:23

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 10:15:05


I have one more question for Chesterton. Lets say a man is far away from any Bishop or priest but he is hurt and knows he is dying. In his final moments he has no one but Christ to absolve him for his sins. So he calls upon the name of Jesus and not just lightly but with a true broken Spirit. Will he find forgiveness even if there was no priest there for him. How many die without absolution yet you will still find them in heaven?

One must determine to obey all God's commandments, and one of those commandments is that one must confess all mortal sins committed after baptism to a duly authorized priest. If there is no priest to be had, then God accepts the will for the deed. He will not accept the will for the deed if there is a duly authorized priest available. Remember the act of perfect contrition always takes away all sins immediately. 

I have one other question then. 

Heb 4:16

3 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Listen if one feels he needs to to to confessio or have absolution because he was taught this. thenlet Him do so. but this formula is not perfect in every case. It is Godly sorrow that works repentance. in the verse above it states that our sins are naked before the Lord who know all things about us personally. We are then instructed that we are now able to come to the Lord Jesus and his throne of grace without fear so we can obtain mercy and forgiveness in our time of need.

It says nothing about that one must go to the Priest to confess his sin. I find i have to almost pray daily over my weaknesses. Many time the lord lets me know that he hears me when I read my devotional and it states just what I needed as if the Lord was sitting next to me. I am always awed when he does this.
so it you want to make everything fit some perfect set of rules you will find that grace goes far beyond you confessional booth. And having to do acts of contrition.

Read Davids prayer in Psalms 51.

1  Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceivea me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a rightb spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltinessc, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. 16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

I didn't see a question in there.

Also, you are ignoring this:

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

No not at all. are you ignoring the scripture i posted? the issue is that that you cannot trap Gods grace in a certain box of rules.  I said it is Godly sorrow that works repentance. The one who truly repents God honors. Even if he did no act of contrition. Listen to what David said

Quote from: John 10:10 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:31:33

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Nov 23, 2010 - 16:12:37
Again another lie.

Catholics believe that as a catholic they are meant to uphold the standards of Christ which the Church also holds to be its own. So as a catholic when one sins they sin against not just heaven but against the Church. To seek forgiveness of the Father catholics believe as we all do that we can go before Him in a quoet place privately. However to recieve forgiveness of the Church that they have porrly represented by sinning they seek out the priest who is the frontline of Church authority.

Protestants have the same concept. If I get drunk and go out driving and kill a four our of a family of five, I seek forgiveness not just of God but of those who I have offended as well. I go to the surviving memeber of the family and  beg their forgiveness for my offenses. The Catholic Church teaches that because they are one family on one accord that when they sin the world will view them not as individuals but as a part of a whole and therefore each part is accountable to the other parts as a whole.

Its actually pretty scriptural. When one brother sins confront the brother and if he will not listen gather two or three more. If he will still not listen take it to the Church. If he will still not listen consider him a pagan.

This is saying that we are accountable to each other because we together make up one Body and therefore our actions affect how others view the collective.

Like I said do some more legitimate research and quit looking a the shallow end of a vast sea of beliefs. You might begin to understand why I feel my fellows protestants are so thickheaded and basically out of line.  

All sin is basically sin against God.  When we sin against our fellow man, we go to them directly and ask for forgiveness, and then make restitution as needed, not to a priest.

By committing the same sins over and over again, and then going to a priest over and over every week makes confession of sin a mockery before God.

David declares this in Psa 19:13,

Also keep back Your servant from presumptuous sins; Let them not rule over me; Then I will be blameless, And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.

Presumptuous sins are sins that we deliberately commit, thinking we can always go to God or a priest and receive forgiveness.  What happens when our hearts are hardened, and we no longer seek God's forgiveness?  What happens when Catholics no longer go to a priest and confess their sins?  

You're totalling missing the point and it really doesn't require your're approval or validation. Catholics believe that they are extensions of the Church which is an extension of the Kingdom of God. When they sin they dishonor both the Kingdom and by extension the Church so therefore they have to make amedns and both ends. God is the sole authority in the kingdom but when it comes to the Church which is physical on earth, He has delegated that authority to men who exist physically on earth. Yes a Catholic can go in private and be forgiven by God but to be forgiven by the Church God has set it up that they go to a priest who is merely one of our brothers who has the authority to extend pardons on behalf of the entire assembly.

I practiced the same format as a protestant child. When I got in trouble in school, I apologize to the teacher for causing her problems and I went home and apologized to my mother for poorly representing the family and all that she had taught me.

I'm not seeing what the issue is here? I think you're trying to imply that the Catholic practice of confession is more than what it clearly cliams to be.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 20:41:45

Quote from: John 10:10 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 14:07:33

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 12:04:23

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 10:15:05
I have one more question for Chesterton. Lets say a man is far away from any Bishop or priest but he is hurt and knows he is dying. In his final moments he has no one but Christ to absolve him for his sins. So he calls upon the name of Jesus and not just lightly but with a true broken Spirit. Will he find forgiveness even if there was no priest there for him. How many die without absolution yet you will still find them in heaven?

One must determine to obey all God's commandments, and one of those commandments is that one must confess all mortal sins committed after baptism to a duly authorized priest. If there is no priest to be had, then God accepts the will for the deed. He will not accept the will for the deed if there is a duly authorized priest available. Remember the act of perfect contrition always takes away all sins immediately. 

This may be RCC dogma, but not Scriptural truth. 

Since "the act of perfect contrition (to God) always takes away all sins immediately," what more can any Bishop or priest do for you than God can do for you?

A priest can forgive sins that are confessed with imperfect contrition.

Wait. Did you just say a priest can forgive sins that are confessed with imperfect contrition?

So you mean a guy who is not truly sorry for his sin but just doesn't want to pay the price can ask forgiveness without any remorse and be forgiven? I'm not accusing you of anything, well of course you know me well enough by now, I'm just trying to clarify if you mean "imperfect contrition" as in one who doesn't really feel remorse but knows he wrong and is trying to make amends or a guy who is planning on sinning again and thinks he can get a free pass by seeing a priest and going through the motions.

I just need you to clarify is all brother.

Happy Thanksgiving to all. Proud to be an American.

Roman Catholicism ever changing doctrines? Why huh?? Something wrong somewhere.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/rcc7-dogma.htm

Quote from: LightHammer on Thu Nov 25, 2010 - 05:13:38

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 20:41:45

Quote from: John 10:10 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 14:07:33

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 12:04:23

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 - 10:15:05
I have one more question for Chesterton. Lets say a man is far away from any Bishop or priest but he is hurt and knows he is dying. In his final moments he has no one but Christ to absolve him for his sins. So he calls upon the name of Jesus and not just lightly but with a true broken Spirit. Will he find forgiveness even if there was no priest there for him. How many die without absolution yet you will still find them in heaven?

One must determine to obey all God's commandments, and one of those commandments is that one must confess all mortal sins committed after baptism to a duly authorized priest. If there is no priest to be had, then God accepts the will for the deed. He will not accept the will for the deed if there is a duly authorized priest available. Remember the act of perfect contrition always takes away all sins immediately. 

This may be RCC dogma, but not Scriptural truth. 

Since "the act of perfect contrition (to God) always takes away all sins immediately," what more can any Bishop or priest do for you than God can do for you?

A priest can forgive sins that are confessed with imperfect contrition.

Wait. Did you just say a priest can forgive sins that are confessed with imperfect contrition?

So you mean a guy who is not truly sorry for his sin but just doesn't want to pay the price can ask forgiveness without any remorse and be forgiven? I'm not accusing you of anything, well of course you know me well enough by now, I'm just trying to clarify if you mean "imperfect contrition" as in one who doesn't really feel remorse but knows he wrong and is trying to make amends or a guy who is planning on sinning again and thinks he can get a free pass by seeing a priest and going through the motions.

I just need you to clarify is all brother.

Happy Thanksgiving to all. Proud to be an American.

Imperfect contrition is still contrition, still sorrow for sins.  Imperfect contrition is sorrow for sins stemming from the fact that his or her sins would cause the loss of heaven and the pains of hell, and not simply because one has a pure and unadulterated love for the Lord (which is perfect contrition), and it must include a resolve to not sin again.