Christian Forums

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Jul 15, 2010 - 22:02:22
Please read the 23rd psalm. The 'rod' here does not refer to a hitting impliment, but a guiding and protecting one. The one verse that I am aware of that some use to justify hitting a child (spare the rod)is the same word that is used in this psalm. The shepherd does not hit his sheep but gently guides them along the path to make sure they dont stray,and protects them also.A good example for us to follow with our own children. Guiding and protecting them. 
psalm 23 v4 amplified
....for you are with me:Your rod (to protect) your staff (to guide) they comfort me.

My husband was a very sensitive little boy who was beaten with a belt by his mum(a Christian)and even now he is 53, he still clearly remembers instances where this happened and it has affected him a lot. Its makes my blood run cold to even think about it. Horrible.

Child abuse is NEVER OK .  With out discounting my other post i agree with you also but some kids are better off for the swat.

Quote from: Eagle on Mon Jul 19, 2010 - 19:03:07

Quote from: chosenone on Thu Jul 15, 2010 - 22:02:22
Please read the 23rd psalm. The 'rod' here does not refer to a hitting impliment, but a guiding and protecting one. The one verse that I am aware of that some use to justify hitting a child (spare the rod)is the same word that is used in this psalm. The shepherd does not hit his sheep but gently guides them along the path to make sure they dont stray,and protects them also.A good example for us to follow with our own children. Guiding and protecting them. 
psalm 23 v4 amplified
....for you are with me:Your rod (to protect) your staff (to guide) they comfort me.

My husband was a very sensitive little boy who was beaten with a belt by his mum(a Christian)and even now he is 53, he still clearly remembers instances where this happened and it has affected him a lot. Its makes my blood run cold to even think about it. Horrible.

Child abuse is NEVER OK .  With out discounting my other post i agree with you also but some kids are better off for the swat.

Maybe I was lucky with my kids but honestly on the very few occasions that I did spank them (once on the bottom)I felt really convicted that it wasnt the thing to do,and it didnt help them in the least. They were lovely and well behaved kids (everyone was always telling me this) . I was always firm and very consistant, if I said no I meant it, but they never needed spanking in that way and the thought of using a cane or stick,or belt or whatever, I could no more hit my kids like that than fly.The thought makes me cringe.
I used the rod as the shepherd did in the 23rd psalm, to guide and lead and keep them on the right track.They are now age 32, 29 and 25, all lovely young people. I led by example and teaching, consistancy and firmness and love.
I can only remember one occasion in my whole childhood when I was spanked on the back side,I have no recollection of what is was for, and hopefully I have turned out OK.lol

By the way the example of my husband being hit with a belt. His mum is a Christian and thought she was doing the Biblical thing when she hit them.I am sure she would quote all the verses to justify it. When my husband had 2 sons she even told him and his former wife to use the belt on them, as it was the 'right' thing to do. They didnt use a  belt. The thing is that my husband was a very sensitive little boy,and it harmed him then. He still has bad memories of a few occasions when he used to hide behind his dad to escape the belt. His dad didnt hit him, he didnt believe it was right. only his mum.

I do think the use of an implement crosses the line. They are capable of causing serious injury and at the very least the kind of marking or bruising which is now considered illegal in the UK. A  short sharp spanking by hand over clothing or undies can convey a clear message very effectively but without inflicting trauma or injury. It is a remedy if used at all to be used sparingly, not to create an unpredictable climate of fear. I firmly believe that any punishment administered in a responsible and loving manner is acceptable.

Quote from: celine on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 06:54:12
I do think the use of an implement crosses the line. They are capable of causing serious injury and at the very least the kind of marking or bruising which is now considered illegal in the UK. A  short sharp spanking by hand over clothing or undies can convey a clear message very effectively but without inflicting trauma or injury. It is a remedy if used at all to be used sparingly, not to create an unpredictable climate of fear. I firmly believe that any punishment administered in a responsible and loving manner is acceptable.

celine are you British then?I am English.
Yes I agree about the use of an impliment, belt, cane, paddle or whatever.

As a general point, it just seems strange to me that if a person comes up to me or you and hits us with an impliment, they can be arrested and charged with actual bodily harm, and yet we think it is ok to hit a small child, who may only be a third of the the size of us with one.I just dont get it, really, especially if there are many alternatives that really do work.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 08:36:09
As a general point, it just seems strange to me that if a person comes up to me or you and hits us with an impliment, they can be arrested and charged with actual bodily harm, and yet we think it is ok to hit a small child, who may only be a third of the the size of us with one.I just dont get it, really, especially if there are many alternatives that really do work.

See?  This bothers me...the way you are wording this.  If a parent just comes up to a child and just hauls off and hits them, that is not spanking, that is abuse.  Parents who have strong willed children, and who are *just* as firm and consistant as you say you were do NOT just walk up to our kids and wallop them out of the blue.  There is no "hitting" the way you are twisting it to sound.  I also have lovely well behaved kids...who are strong willed, so all the theories didn't exactly work on them.  I am a child development major too, so I was very distraught that everything I had been taught and bought into didn't work like was promised.

Also, spanking is not the only disciplinary tool used and it is (if done properly) as a last resort when the child continues behaving in unacceptable ways after all the other methods do not get the results of a changed behavior.

Hi Chosenone
I live in Scotland but I was born in Ireland.
As I've said, I don't think implements should be used. I'm not sure you are using a fair analogy. If a stranger imprisoned me against my will, he could be arrested. That doesn't make it wrong for my parents to ground me.  If I behaved outrageously, like coming home very drunk or throwing a part where the house got thrashed, I would imagine my mother would still apply heat to my seat to be honest.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 03:30:15
By the way the example of my husband being hit with a belt. His mum is a Christian and thought she was doing the Biblical thing when she hit them.I am sure she would quote all the verses to justify it. When my husband had 2 sons she even told him and his former wife to use the belt on them, as it was the 'right' thing to do. They didnt use a  belt. The thing is that my husband was a very sensitive little boy,and it harmed him then. He still has bad memories of a few occasions when he used to hide behind his dad to escape the belt. His dad didnt hit him, he didnt believe it was right. only his mum.

She clearly needed to discipline in love, not just allow herself to be swept away by the "permission" to use the rod.  Just because she was out of control in her deliverance of spanking, does not mean all parents who spank are like her or even approach the issue remotely the same way.  People use verses to justify their sin all the time...and they use the "out of context" claim to do the same.   Unless we are guided by the Holy Spirit anyone can twist and turn God's word.  Even Satan knew enough of God's word to twist it and tempt Christ.  Just like your MIL, he was wrong.

I don't think spankings are for every child.  Your dh was obviously one who it was *not* wise to use on.  A good parent takes the time to find what works to train up their child, not what allows them to blow off steam and feel better for getting their pent up anger out.

I also don't think every parent should use spankings.  Your mil sounds like she should not have.  She couldn't do it with compassion, just rage.

What I wish, is that your posts would reflect Romans 14.  We are all not going to have the same convictions, but to make the convictions of others sound wrong and abusive is not showing grace IMO.  It would cause you to stumble for me to swat my little one in front of you, so I would not do that, but I also would not immediately assume and speak out that your methods were negative or compair them to anything negative or abusive.  What worked for *your* children may not work for *all* children.

You said you felt convicted for swatting, and I can tell you that I felt the same when I refused to use swatting, because I had put all my hope in the theories and other methods. I was convicted because my kid's wills were/are stronger  than the theories accounted for...and I was losing them.  I felt the conviction that the methods were *not* working on my kids in the command to train them up in the way they should go, respecting their parents, making sure to help them with their conduct being pure and right.  Does that mean I just started wailing on them? Nope, not even a little bit, but what it did was give me one more tool to use when the theories feel short.  Did/do I have to swat daily...not even close.  I have to swat my youngest *very* rarely..just like her older sister and brothers.  What did happen, was when my oldest knew swatting was added to the table, they took the other methods more seriously because they knew if they pushed and tested, there was a real boundary they could no longer cross that actually made them want to stop their poor behavior.

Some folks will take Dr. Spock's word over Gods Word.


Pro 10:13  In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.



I feel the above scripture tells a lot.  Talking , reasoning, etc is first then if that doesn't get their attition spank    not hit, not slug, not abuse. 

Quote from: JMT on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 09:20:49

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 03:30:15
By the way the example of my husband being hit with a belt. His mum is a Christian and thought she was doing the Biblical thing when she hit them.I am sure she would quote all the verses to justify it. When my husband had 2 sons she even told him and his former wife to use the belt on them, as it was the 'right' thing to do. They didnt use a  belt. The thing is that my husband was a very sensitive little boy,and it harmed him then. He still has bad memories of a few occasions when he used to hide behind his dad to escape the belt. His dad didnt hit him, he didnt believe it was right. only his mum.

She clearly needed to discipline in love, not just allow herself to be swept away by the "permission" to use the rod.  Just because she was out of control in her deliverance of spanking, does not mean all parents who spank are like her or even approach the issue remotely the same way.  People use verses to justify their sin all the time...and they use the "out of context" claim to do the same.   Unless we are guided by the Holy Spirit anyone can twist and turn God's word.  Even Satan knew enough of God's word to twist it and tempt Christ.  Just like your MIL, he was wrong.

I don't think spankings are for every child.  Your dh was obviously one who it was *not* wise to use on.  A good parent takes the time to find what works to train up their child, not what allows them to blow off steam and feel better for getting their pent up anger out.

I also don't think every parent should use spankings.  Your mil sounds like she should not have.  She couldn't do it with compassion, just rage.

What I wish, is that your posts would reflect Romans 14.  We are all not going to have the same convictions, but to make the convictions of others sound wrong and abusive is not showing grace IMO.  It would cause you to stumble for me to swat my little one in front of you, so I would not do that, but I also would not immediately assume and speak out that your methods were negative or compair them to anything negative or abusive.  What worked for *your* children may not work for *all* children.

You said you felt convicted for swatting, and I can tell you that I felt the same when I refused to use swatting, because I had put all my hope in the theories and other methods. I was convicted because my kid's wills were/are stronger  than the theories accounted for...and I was losing them.  I felt the conviction that the methods were *not* working on my kids in the command to train them up in the way they should go, respecting their parents, making sure to help them with their conduct being pure and right.  Does that mean I just started wailing on them? Nope, not even a little bit, but what it did was give me one more tool to use when the theories feel short.  Did/do I have to swat daily...not even close.  I have to swat my youngest *very* rarely..just like her older sister and brothers.  What did happen, was when my oldest knew swatting was added to the table, they took the other methods more seriously because they knew if they pushed and tested, there was a real boundary they could no longer cross that actually made them want to stop their poor behavior.

  She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.

[
[/quote]

  She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.
[/quote]

Many people do terrible things in the name of God, but which are in fact utterly opposed to God's word. I feel great sympathy for your husband's plight. Childhood should be a happy, secure time.   I don't believe that spanking in moderation is comparable to this kind of callous brutality. I think toxic parents can inflict harm psychologically as much as physically. I don't believe either that the Bible either mandates or prohibits spanking. It is a question of what makes for good parenting practice and people are entitled to differ in their views.

Quote from: Eagle on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 09:41:45
Some folks will take Dr. Spock's word over Gods Word.


Pro 10:13  In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.



I feel the above scripture tells a lot.  Talking , reasoning, etc is first then if that doesn't get their attition spank    not hit, not slug, not abuse.  

Dr Spock?? Havent a clue what he said.
I had my children at a young age, 21 when I had my first, but my mothering instinct was strong and much of it was intuition that has proved to be right. I was also helped greatly by having a brilliant mum, (who by the way I cant remember ever hitting us) and even though she had a terrible upbringing, much of it in a strict orphanage, she bought us up really well with no physical punishment. Her mothing skills were also intuitive, and she was the best mum ever. We were 2 very happy and healthy and well balanced little kids.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:21:34
She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.

No, she knows the same God that you do...she is just one that is described in Romans 14...different in understanding and conviction of what the scripture is saying, and needs to be shown grace.

We all want to define God by what makes us comfortable, but He is who He is...His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.  It makes me uncomfortable to think of Him the way the OT describes Him when He ordered the complete slaughter of evil nations..even the babies.  Is that a different God than the one you know?  

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:50:44
Dr Spock?? Havent a clue what he said.
I had my children at a young age, 21 when I had my first, but my mothering instinct was strong and much of it was intuition that has proved to be right. I was also helped greatly by having a brilliant mum, (who by the way I cant remember ever hitting us) and even though she had a terrible upbringing, much of it in a strict orphanage, she bought us up really well with no physical punishment. Her mothing skills were also intuitive, and she was the best mum ever. We were 2 very happy and healthy and well balanced little kids.

My mothering instinct was strong and remains strong as well.  I was raised differently than I am raising my own kids and that is why I went into C.D.  I wanted to have keys beyond what I had modeled to me, beyond my own intuition, and to enhance what was naturally there.  God's word has given me the healthy balance for me between my gut, my knowledge and my emotion.

Quote from: celine on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:49:54
[

 She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.
[/quote]

Many people do terrible things in the name of God, but which are in fact utterly opposed to God's word. I feel great sympathy for your husband's plight. Childhood should be a happy, secure time.   I don't believe that spanking in moderation is comparable to this kind of callous brutality. I think toxic parents can inflict harm psychologically as much as physically. I don't believe either that the Bible either mandates or prohibits spanking. It is a question of what makes for good parenting practice and people are entitled to differ in their views.

[/quote]  

celine I agree to a point but where is the line to be drawn? Many Christians think its OK to hit a child with a stick, paddle or rod or whatever. I think that is awful. The older I have got the more opposed I have got to hitting a child in this way. The more I have seen of how different people have bought up their kids and the positive or negative effects that has had on them now as adults.
By the way, is that true what you said about it being illegal to hit a child with an impliment in the UK?

Quote from: JMT on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:57:57

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:50:44
Dr Spock?? Havent a clue what he said.
I had my children at a young age, 21 when I had my first, but my mothering instinct was strong and much of it was intuition that has proved to be right. I was also helped greatly by having a brilliant mum, (who by the way I cant remember ever hitting us) and even though she had a terrible upbringing, much of it in a strict orphanage, she bought us up really well with no physical punishment. Her mothing skills were also intuitive, and she was the best mum ever. We were 2 very happy and healthy and well balanced little kids.

My mothering instinct was strong and remains strong as well.  I was raised differently than I am raising my own kids and that is why I went into C.D.  I wanted to have keys beyond what I had modeled to me, beyond my own intuition, and to enhance what was naturally there.  God's word has given me the healthy balance for me between my gut, my knowledge and my emotion.

For me the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If I can bring up  three lovely young people with no physical violence then why use it? 

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 11:01:11

Quote from: celine on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:49:54
[

 She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.

Many people do terrible things in the name of God, but which are in fact utterly opposed to God's word. I feel great sympathy for your husband's plight. Childhood should be a happy, secure time.   I don't believe that spanking in moderation is comparable to this kind of callous brutality. I think toxic parents can inflict harm psychologically as much as physically. I don't believe either that the Bible either mandates or prohibits spanking. It is a question of what makes for good parenting practice and people are entitled to differ in their views.

[/quote]  

celine I agree to a point but where is the line to be drawn? Many Christians think its OK to hit a child with a stick, paddle or rod or whatever. I think that is awful. The older I have got the more opposed I have got to hitting a child in this way. The more I have seen of how different people have bought up their kids and the positive or negative effects that has had on them now as adults.
By the way, is that true what you said about it being illegal to hit a child with an impliment in the UK?
[/quote]

This is an unfair characterization of what spanking is...not that I think you are going to change your mind or use speech filled with more grace than you are now...I just want to once more make it clear that you are being unfair to characterize parents who discipline differently from you like this.

Quote from: JMT on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:51:34

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:21:34
She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.

No, she knows the same God that you do...she is just one that is described in Romans 14...different in understanding and conviction of what the scripture is saying, and needs to be shown grace.

We all want to define God by what makes us comfortable, but He is who He is...His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.  It makes me uncomfortable to think of Him the way the OT describes Him when He ordered the complete slaughter of evil nations..even the babies.  Is that a different God than the one you know?  

The God that I know as my loving Dad, would never want a sensitive small boy to be repeatedly hit with a belt, so much so that at the age of 53 he still vividly remembers it with fear. Also he has no relationship to speak of with his mother and moved the other side of  the world from her when he was in his 20's.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 11:04:28

Quote from: JMT on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:57:57

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:50:44
Dr Spock?? Havent a clue what he said.
I had my children at a young age, 21 when I had my first, but my mothering instinct was strong and much of it was intuition that has proved to be right. I was also helped greatly by having a brilliant mum, (who by the way I cant remember ever hitting us) and even though she had a terrible upbringing, much of it in a strict orphanage, she bought us up really well with no physical punishment. Her mothing skills were also intuitive, and she was the best mum ever. We were 2 very happy and healthy and well balanced little kids.

My mothering instinct was strong and remains strong as well.  I was raised differently than I am raising my own kids and that is why I went into C.D.  I wanted to have keys beyond what I had modeled to me, beyond my own intuition, and to enhance what was naturally there.  God's word has given me the healthy balance for me between my gut, my knowledge and my emotion.

For me the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If I can bring up  three lovely young people with no physical violence then why use it? 

You *clearly* did NOT *need* to use it!  God clearly saw fit to give your children the temperaments that did NOT require an occasional swat!  You can understand that your children are unique and different from other children, right?  I have four kiddos, one who simply needs a stern talking to to straighten him out.  It would be CRUEL for me to swat him, when other methods work.  My other children laughed in the face of other methods sometimes, are strong willed and *needed* a swat to correct them and let them know they are not in charge and they must respect authority.

Surely you are not making your children and yourself the standard by which all parenting is judged, right?

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 11:08:54
 The God that I know as my loving Dad, would never want a sensitive small boy to be repeatedly hit with a belt, so much so that at the age of 53 he still vividly remembers it with fear. Also he has no relationship to speak of with his mother and moved the other side of  the world from her when he was in his 20's.

yes, me as well...but Chosen, that is not the only aspect of His personality.  He also brought the hammer down when need be, and though it makes us uncomfortable to look at, embrace and even acknowledge...God *did* sometimes do what seems to us to be harsh, ugly things...like demanding the slaughter of babies in the OT.

I do NOT think your mil was right in how she dealt with your dh, but she is not the standard by which parents who swat should be measured.  She.  Was.  Wrong.  I think I said that already.  Her punishment discouraged her child and broke his spirit..that is not what God calls us to.  

Quote from: JMT on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 11:05:24

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 11:01:11

Quote from: celine on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:49:54
[

 She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.

Many people do terrible things in the name of God, but which are in fact utterly opposed to God's word. I feel great sympathy for your husband's plight. Childhood should be a happy, secure time.   I don't believe that spanking in moderation is comparable to this kind of callous brutality. I think toxic parents can inflict harm psychologically as much as physically. I don't believe either that the Bible either mandates or prohibits spanking. It is a question of what makes for good parenting practice and people are entitled to differ in their views.

celine I agree to a point but where is the line to be drawn? Many Christians think its OK to hit a child with a stick, paddle or rod or whatever. I think that is awful. The older I have got the more opposed I have got to hitting a child in this way. The more I have seen of how different people have bought up their kids and the positive or negative effects that has had on them now as adults.
By the way, is that true what you said about it being illegal to hit a child with an impliment in the UK?
[/quote]

This is an unfair characterization of what spanking is...not that I think you are going to change your mind or use speech filled with more grace than you are now...I just want to once more make it clear that you are being unfair to characterize parents who discipline differently from you like this.
[/quote]

I don't think we can lump all parents who believe in spanking  together. There is a VAST different between the ones who give the very occasional smack, from those who beat or hit with a paddle or swatch or stick which leaves a welt or horrible red mark.
In my opinion some parents go way over the line of what is necessary,and I have seen children grow up to be so resentful and angry.It doesn't surprise me. If I was hit or beaten I would feel hurt and angry as well.

I just don't get why we think it is OK to do things to a small child that we would never do to a spouse or another adult.Yet they are smaller and weaker and need more protection.  

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 11:16:51
I don't think we can lump all parents who believe in spanking  together. There is a VAST different between the ones who give the very occasional smack, from those who beat or hit with a paddle or swatch or stick which leaves a welt or horrible red mark.
In my opinion some parents go way over the line of what is necessary,and I have seen children grow up to be so resentful and angry.It doesn't surprise me. If I was hit or beaten I would feel hurt and angry as well.

I just don't get why we think it is OK to do things to a small child that we would never do to a spouse or another adult.Yet they are smaller and weaker and need more protection.  

I agree with you.  I am glad to read that you are seeing the difference, thank you for that!   

What you describe being over the line, is just like you said: WRONG UGLY and even SIN.  Parents are not to discourage or provoke undo anger in our children that will cause a bitter root to take hold and grow.  We are to lead children *to* the Lord, not do things that drive them away. 

[[/quote]  

celine I agree to a point but where is the line to be drawn? Many Christians think its OK to hit a child with a stick, paddle or rod or whatever. I think that is awful. The older I have got the more opposed I have got to hitting a child in this way. The more I have seen of how different people have bought up their kids and the positive or negative effects that has had on them now as adults.
By the way, is that true what you said about it being illegal to hit a child with an impliment in the UK?
[/quote]

Using an implement is illegal in Scotland. In the rest of the UK, spanking must be "reasonable" and not leave marking or bruising. In every kind of punishment a line has to be drawn between what is reasonable or unreasonable. I agree with you that the danger in permitting spanking without prescribing limits is that it can become open season for abusers. In fact, I wouldn't object if it was banned altogether for that reason. The point I'm making is that spanking used properly is not inherently evil. It is possible to raise kids without using it, as you have done so successfully. Equally you could bring up kids without ever grounding them, but that doesn't make grounding wrong. I think my parents raised me well and the fact that I was spanked into my teens while shocking to some for me was rightful dessert for the sin of disobedience.

Quote from: JMT on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 09:01:42

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 08:36:09
As a general point, it just seems strange to me that if a person comes up to me or you and hits us with an impliment, they can be arrested and charged with actual bodily harm, and yet we think it is ok to hit a small child, who may only be a third of the the size of us with one.I just dont get it, really, especially if there are many alternatives that really do work.

See?  This bothers me...the way you are wording this.  If a parent just comes up to a child and just hauls off and hits them, that is not spanking, that is abuse.  Parents who have strong willed children, and who are *just* as firm and consistant as you say you were do NOT just walk up to our kids and wallop them out of the blue.  There is no "hitting" the way you are twisting it to sound.  I also have lovely well behaved kids...who are strong willed, so all the theories didn't exactly work on them.  I am a child development major too, so I was very distraught that everything I had been taught and bought into didn't work like was promised.

Also, spanking is not the only disciplinary tool used and it is (if done properly) as a last resort when the child continues behaving in unacceptable ways after all the other methods do not get the results of a changed behavior.

With this said though, then that would give myself the justification that if someone was acting out of line (anyone for that matter) then I should have the right to put them back in their place with a physical method.

Belts, spanking, etc. really developed a huge anger management issue in me as a teenager. Before I found Christ, I had gotten in physical fights, because I felt that person was being disrespectful and they needed to be put in their place.

However, I would like to say this. God gives me absolute grace upon my actions. It's not like I walk in life thinking "oh it's totally cool if I sin, God's gonna forgive me anyways." But even as an adult, I make mistakes! And God forgives me, and teaches me a lesson that is condusive and really educates me on how I could have avoided the situation, make it better, etc. If my parents would have sat down with me, and had a discussion explaining why it was wrong for me to act like I did, and what I could have do next time to be better, I believe a 100% I would have never had any anger management issues to deal with.

P.s.... I am not insulting your parenting skills, or saying that anything is wrong with your children. But trauma in it's truest form, can make a child act out in unimagineable ways. It's not that they're wanting to be bad, it's how they know how to deal with a situation. I think sometimes people don't sit down and really investigate what's going on with their kid, instead they just think the kid is being horrible, and making really poor choices. I always believe in getting down to the root of the problem. Some kids need help developing good coping skills, and social skills.

I've been a mom....and also a preschool teacher for 19 yrs....so I've had kids in different settings and in varying groups sizes. To me, probably because I had to learn to discipline without spanking...integrity became the key to training children. Meaning, children mind me because of integrity, not because I will hurt them. They learn that mommy or "Miss Jenny means her words" so, this causes their behaviors to come in line because they know that I will consistantly make them accountable for their behaviors. If they hurt someone, then they have to make it right. If they break something, then they have to make it right.......so, basically they don't behave out of fear of how misbehaving will affect them, but out of knowing and learning that they have to be responsible for their behaviors because of HOW their behaviors affect others. 

Quote from: inhimwearefree12 on Wed Jul 21, 2010 - 00:55:39
P.s.... I am not insulting your parenting skills, or saying that anything is wrong with your children. But trauma in it's truest form, can make a child act out in unimagineable ways. It's not that they're wanting to be bad, it's how they know how to deal with a situation. I think sometimes people don't sit down and really investigate what's going on with their kid, instead they just think the kid is being horrible, and making really poor choices. I always believe in getting down to the root of the problem. Some kids need help developing good coping skills, and social skills.

Just wanting to reassure you that my children who have been blessed with strong wills by God and my child who is blessed with a more compliant nature have suffered no trauma in their lives.  I have *never* told them or thought that they were horrible, or flippantly making poor choices.  I *always* have discussions with them that gets at the heart (or root of the problem), because if not, we are just blowing smoke at symptoms and not dealing with heart change...the lines of communication in our home are very open and I am eager to hear from them as well, and they know that. 

It is amazing to me how much people can assume when they hear parents say they know their kids temperaments...its like they are saying they know better what is "really" going on, the kids motives, the parents motives, what is missing in the parenting etc. Oh well.    I am a child development major who is a preschool teacher presently...I understand to the best of my ability how the mind of a child (in general) works.

Be blessed. 

Quote from: ela on Wed Jul 21, 2010 - 07:58:21
Meaning, children mind me because of integrity, not because I will hurt them.

I don't even know how to reply to this...   It assumes much.

Quote from: ela on Wed Jul 21, 2010 - 07:58:21
I've been a mom....and also a preschool teacher for 19 yrs....so I've had kids in different settings and in varying groups sizes. To me, probably because I had to learn to discipline without spanking...integrity became the key to training children. Meaning, children mind me because of integrity, not because I will hurt them. They learn that mommy or "Miss Jenny means her words" so, this causes their behaviors to come in line because they know that I will consistantly make them accountable for their behaviors. If they hurt someone, then they have to make it right. If they break something, then they have to make it right.......so, basically they don't behave out of fear of how misbehaving will affect them, but out of knowing and learning that they have to be responsible for their behaviors because of HOW their behaviors affect others. 

I like you work in an environment which we relay on a certain thing called "The Restorative Approach". I deal with abused foster kids who are at risk, and in our group home to work on treatment. We do these things called Restorative tasks, in which because of the incident they have to complete 3 tasks. Sometimes it could be roleplaying what could have gone better, how the situation affects them and those around them. I love it in a sense because children can really look at what are the consequences of their actions as they get older, and how to mend a broken relationship. I really like using sentences such as "You really hurt my feelings so and so when you do this...". But if I did not have a relationship with these kids, it would never work. I barely knew my dad very well until about a year ago, we became closer. I understand his ways, and communication so much more, and his love for me is so much more real to me now, than it ever has been. My parents didn't have a lot of open ended conversations with me, it was mostly just pressuring me into saying why I did something, even though a lot of times I didn't know why I did those things. But now I can finally express myself is someone hurts my feelings, or does something that really bothers me. So yeah, I totally agree a firm intregity and foundation is where the root has to be. Also trust!

Quote from: JMT on Wed Jul 21, 2010 - 08:24:32

Quote from: inhimwearefree12 on Wed Jul 21, 2010 - 00:55:39
P.s.... I am not insulting your parenting skills, or saying that anything is wrong with your children. But trauma in it's truest form, can make a child act out in unimagineable ways. It's not that they're wanting to be bad, it's how they know how to deal with a situation. I think sometimes people don't sit down and really investigate what's going on with their kid, instead they just think the kid is being horrible, and making really poor choices. I always believe in getting down to the root of the problem. Some kids need help developing good coping skills, and social skills.

Just wanting to reassure you that my children who have been blessed with strong wills by God and my child who is blessed with a more compliant nature have suffered no trauma in their lives.  I have *never* told them or thought that they were horrible, or flippantly making poor choices.  I *always* have discussions with them that gets at the heart (or root of the problem), because if not, we are just blowing smoke at symptoms and not dealing with heart change...the lines of communication in our home are very open and I am eager to hear from them as well, and they know that. 

It is amazing to me how much people can assume when they hear parents say they know their kids temperaments...its like they are saying they know better what is "really" going on, the kids motives, the parents motives, what is missing in the parenting etc. Oh well.    I am a child development major who is a preschool teacher presently...I understand to the best of my ability how the mind of a child (in general) works.

Be blessed. 

Totally! I only say from personal experience. I had a very traumatic childhood from repeated sexual abuse, emotional abuse, a lot of secret keeping, etc. So I think some of my poor choices (even though I think back, and think to myself man I could have been an outrageous out of control kid, luckily and thankfully i wasn't that crazy!) really were outcries to my parents. I think Satan had his hand on all of those situations, like my parents didn't even really ask what was going on, until the night I almost killed myself as a teenager. But thankfully I am now aware of the way kids react to certain traumatic situations, and happenings, that I can ask what is going on, and help them with where they are at, so they don't have to ever come to a point of ending their own life. Thankfully I found Jesus when I was around 20. 

Parents should listen to God and not some duufy psychologist when it comes to raising children. 

Its actually an insult to God to not listen to Him. 

God is perfectly capable of using those with knowledge and wisdom in these areas, just as he is able to use doctors to heal us.
If a parent can bring up polite, well behaved, kind, thoughtful and honest young people, without resorting to hitting or beating them, then thats brilliant, and I have seen it done many times. 

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Feb 15, 2011 - 14:04:44
God is perfectly capable of using those with knowledge and wisdom in these areas, just as he is able to use doctors to heal us.
If a parent can bring up polite, well behaved, kind, thoughtful and honest young people, without resorting to hitting or beating them, then thats brilliant, and I have seen it done many times. 

Does your personal experience limited or otherwise trump scripture?

On this topic, apparently it does.  I've seen almost no scriptural support for any of your positions on this topic.  Nothing but personal experience and rhetoric.

For me, spanking is not a discipline it is a form of punishment. Spanking only reinforces negative behavior and doesn't teach children how problems can be solved through proper, positive communication. A child whose behavior is controlled by spanking is likely to carry on this mode of interaction into other relationships with siblings and peers, and eventually a spouse and offspring. Talking is an effective form of discipline. If you think you can't control your teen at all you can consider sending your teen to troubled teen boarding school.

Quote from: ananeuman on Tue Mar 22, 2011 - 04:49:13
For me, spanking is not a discipline it is a form of punishment. Spanking only reinforces negative behavior and doesn't teach children how problems can be solved through proper, positive communication. A child whose behavior is controlled by spanking is likely to carry on this mode of interaction into other relationships with siblings and peers, and eventually a spouse and offspring. Talking is an effective form of discipline. If you think you can't control your teen at all you can consider sending your teen to troubled teen boarding school.

Yet, how many of us were spanked as children & it in no-way-what-so-ever carried over into other areas of our lives?  I was spanked as a child & in no way did it negatively effect my outcome in my life.

My husband & I always go back to Proverbs 13:24, "He who spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."  We've even heard teachings that suggest that when you go back to the ancient texts, rod is actually translated as club.

I believe there is a difference in how one spanks their child.  A spanking done out of anger serves no purpose.  And we don't spank for every little thing.  If we do have to spank, it is done in a calm manner & after it is done, we sit the child on our lap & make sure of the following:

1.)  Do you understand why you were spanked?
2.)  What should you have done instead?  (We always make sure they know there is alternative behavior, should the situation arise, again.)
3.)  Do you understand what the Bible says about spanking & correction? (We have gone over the verses with them & explained why God instructs this for learning & correction.
4.)  Mommy/Daddy loves you very much & we don't like to spank you, but we did it because. . . (and we review the above one last time).

If done correctly, I believe spanking develops respect for rules & for the parents, rather than a fear of the parents or of being spanked.  It shows the child that there are consequences for inappropriate behavior. 

Children can respect their parents without being hit by them. Good discipline means consistency and not necessarily physical punishment. Parents can be strict and consistant withut resorting to hitting/spanking. I was always consistant and firm with my kids, and they were always well behaved and have turned lovely caring young adults. Hitting/beating/spanking isn't needed to bring up godly kids.

The rod was used by the shepherd to guide the sheep and lambs, and not to beat them with. I wouldnt beat my dog, so why on earth would I beat my kids.

The shepherd would break the leg of a lamb that constantly strayed.

The "rod of correction" mentioned in Scripture wasn't a "time out" or a "good talking to" - that's for sure.