Obedience of Faith. Without it there can be no Grace.

[Rella]

 

And without Grace there is no hope for those who have failed the command of Obedience.

[RB]

And without Grace there is no hope for those who have failed the command of Obedience.

Romans 11:3-6~"Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

You are 100% correct, "without God's election by grace there is no hope.

[4WD]

You are 100% correct, "without God's election by grace there is no hope.

RB, that is not what Rella said. You said that she was 100% correct and then posited a comment that disagreed with what she said.

[yogi bear]

Oh such an interesting topic following to see how this plays out so much truth in the opening statement but sure it will take many avenues so waiting to see where this goes.

Rella I agree 100% with your opening but not sure we are saying the same thing waiting to here more because I disagree 100% with the road RB is wanting to travel.

[4WD]

 Yes, yogi.  Once again, RB has the cart and the horse all discombobulated.  I started to say simply that he had the cart before the horse, but it is so much more complicated than that.

[RB]

Before I comment again, let us see what our sister meant...... pretty sure she was saying in her first post, WITHOUT God's grace there is NO hope.

Now, I will add this, her topic and her post seems a little confusing.

Obedience of Faith. Without it there can be no Grace.

But her first post said:

And without Grace there is no hope for those who have failed the command of Obedience.

Maybe, she can come and explain exactly what she meant to say.

[Rella]

Before I comment again, let us see what our sister meant...... pretty sure she was saying in her first post, WITHOUT God's grace there is NO hope.

Now, I will add this, her topic and her post seems a little confusing.
Quote
Obedience of Faith. Without it there can be no Grace.

[/size]

But her first post said:

Quote
And without Grace there is no hope for those who have failed the command of Obedience.
Maybe, she can come and explain exactly what she meant to say.

OK Mr. Baker, I shall try to clarify.

The Topic says

Obedience of Faith. Without it there can be no Grace.

I further stated....

And without Grace there is no hope for those who have failed the command of Obedience.

I finished the book we are/were reading and in my normal impatient way chose this to start ( and also likely end) some comments and observations.

There is a section, within this Jack Cottrell book that talks on Obedience of Faith... which admittedly I have read but it never clicked in my mind until I did some extra reading on the subject.

When I said
"And without Grace there is no hope for those who have failed the command of Obedience." That surly is the conclusion anyone with two eyes and the brain of a gnat would understand.

Obedience of Faith IS a command. But if you fail in this obedience you will not obtain God's saving Grace.

Saving faith is an act of obedience. So, you should not be bothered by the idea of faith as an act of obedience. The obedience of faith spoken of in Rom 1:5 and 16:26 does not refer to obeying all that God has commanded. No one but the Lord Jesus has done that. Rather, it refers specifically to obeying the command to believe the Gospel.

It is the lack of "Obedience of Faith" that caused Jesus to say in Math 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So grace is a reality that comes from God and comes through Jesus and his work for us. It is not something we have a right to. Jesus obtained it for us. We get it freely because of the obedience and death of another.

And we get it by the Obedience of our own Faith in Jesus.

In otherwords... the following is rightly quoted.

"By His Grace, for His Name, Through the Obedience of Faith"

And

"This is why Romans 4:16 says, "For this reason it (being an heir of the promise) is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace." This is Paul's way of saying that grace is absolutely free and cannot be deserved or merited. When grace comes to you, it is through faith or not at all."

Now, I am not going further for the simplicity of Faith is not as simple as it might seem when according to DR. Cottrell there is
Chapter 13.

[Texas Conservative]

OP is very man centered instead of God centered

[Rella]

OP is very man centered instead of God centered

Yes Mr. Conservtive.

But I did not write the book.

[4WD]

OP is very man centered instead of God centered

The OP is very much like a quote I have heard from Jordan Peterson.  He said that he is often asked if he believes in God.  He said he didn't like the question.  He responded with the question, "How can anyone say that he believes in God if he doesn't do what God says?" I find that question very pertinent to the question Peterson was asked, and to the discussion here.  Peterson proceeded then to tell the interviewer, "I try very hard to act as if I believe in God". I think that is a message for each and every one of us even if there remains a bit of a discussion about what it means to "believe".

If you think believing in God is man centered instead of God centered, that is probably a discussion left for another time.

[Texas Conservative]

The OP is very much like a quote I have heard from Jordan Peterson.  He said that he is often asked if he believes in God.  He said he didn't like the question.  He responded with the question, "How can anyone say that he believes in God if he doesn't do what God says?" I find that question very pertinent to the question Peterson was asked, and to the discussion here.  Peterson proceeded then to tell the interviewer, "I try very hard to act as if I believe in God". I think that is a message for each and every one of us even if there remains a bit of a discussion about what it means to "believe".

If you think believing in God is man centered instead of God centered, that is probably a discussion left for another time.

No, I think the way that the quote is worded from Rella's post is man centered.  I do not think that belief is man centered.

[yogi bear]

Can you please explain why you see it as man centered Just so I fully understand what you are saying?

[RB]

Obedience of Faith. Without it there can be no Grace.

This statement is heresy, and if it came from Jack Cottrell's book "what the bible says about G R A C E....Set Free!" then he is preaching another gospel~I now have the book in my possession ~ I'm on page 47 of 375, so have a ways to go, but I will comment on this book as I work my way through it. I have already seen places where he is deceitfully presenting a false gospel based on works. I suspected this before starting the book, but had to read it before I could truly comment on his teachings.

Later I will start posting. I will say this: "Obedience of Faith. Without obedience, there can be no evidence of God's Grace in a person's life. GRACE must come first, then obedience will follow.  That's the difference in the true gospel and another gospel .

[4WD]

I have already seen places where he is deceitfully presenting a false gospel based on works.

I will strive to hold my comments until you complete your reading and analysis.  It will not be easy because of statements like yours here.  He is not deceitfully presenting a false gospel based on works.  Rather you here, and always, present a false definition of works as Paul treats works of law.  I will at least give you the benefit of the doubt which you obviously have not given Cottrell.  I don't think you present a false definition of works deceitfully; I think you present a false definition of works honestly even if in ignorance.

[4WD]

I do not think that belief is man centered.

Belief as the act that a man does is clearly man centered.  Belief as the object of a man's thinking can be anything.  If it is about God, then clearly it is God centered. A problem in all of this is that far too many, possibly including TC here, consider belief in God to somehow be altogether different than belief in anything else.

[RB]

I will strive to hold my comments until you complete your reading and analysis.  It will not be easy because of statements like yours here.  He is not deceitfully presenting a false gospel based on works.  Rather you here, and always, present a false definition of works as Paul treats works of law.  I will at least give you the benefit of the doubt which you obviously have not given Cottrell.  I don't think you present a false definition of works deceitfully; I think you present a false definition of works honestly even if in ignorance.

AT least I'm reading his book before I comment, so I will not misrepresent what Mr. Cottrell is teaching, I said what I said because I HAVE read some of his quotes on a few subjects, thereby, I knew going in basically what he was going to say on particular subject.

Furthermore, I apologize for saying he was deceitfully teaching, that was too hard and uncalled-for, Mr. Cottrell very well could have been teaching in good faith, yet seriously wrong and was not led by the Spirit of God, which he does not believe that God reveals truth, but man has the wisdom and strength to seek and find out truth by his own ability. That's also a serious error and the results are seen in their corrupt presentation of the truth, regardless of their natural ability which he has without question, which makes it even harder to seen through some men's corruption of God's word.

[4WD]

That's also a serious error and the results are seen in their corrupt presentation of the truth, regardless of their natural ability which he has without question, which makes it even harder to seen through some men's corruption of God's word.

Of course, that is precisely what many of us here think about Augustine, Calvin and you, RB. There are few within all of Christendom that corrupt God's word concerning salvation and God, Himself, so great as those who would promote TULIP.

[DaveW]

OP is very man centered instead of God centered

Derek Prince (probably more than) once quoted John Wesley who said:

"God has His part and we have our part.
God will NOT do our part; and we CANNOT do God's part."

It has always been a joint effort. Taking on our Lord's yoke requires us to keep up with Him, even as He is doing the heavy lifting.

[yogi bear]

Derek Prince (probably more than) once quoted John Wesley who said:

"God has His part and we have our part.
God will NOT do our part; and we CANNOT do God's part."

It has always been a joint effort. Taking on our Lord's yoke requires us to keep up with Him, even as He is doing the heavy lifting.

Dave I like this for there is much truth there. I admit I don't agree with a lot of your posts but I do like this one.