Revelation On The "I AM" Delusion

[Lee Freeman]

Squeaky, please listen to and prayerfully consider what Clifty is saying. We want to help you.

Pax.

[Squeakybro]

Squeaky where in God's Word did he say that "he" was a title of "spiritual authority?" Do you have evidence from ancient Greek that Greek authors they ever used "he" in such a way? Of course not. It can't be that way just because you say so. You've gotta support your assertion with textual evidence from the Greek. Around here we call that an inference. The same word you say is used here as a title of "spiritual authority" is the same demonstrative masculine pronoun used to describe other, oridinary, men.

You're correct that God, Christ and the Spirit are spirit, yet when God became flesh he took on masculine characteristics. Which is why John 1:2 translates literally as: "This man was in the beginning with God" or "He was in the beginning with God."

The same he that was with God and was God, "made his dwelling among us."

Pax.

I said
Where in the world did you get the idea that God became flesh?
I can see you havent separated God from His Word or from Jesus. But if you will look closely at verse 1 of John it says "was" not is. The Word was God not is God.

John 1:1
1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NKJ)

Then it says that the only begotten Word of God came through Jesus.
It doesnt say that the Word "is" Jesus but came through Jesus.

John 1:14
14   And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
(NKJ)

John 1:17
17   For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)

[Squeakybro]

The LORD <03068> is my shepherd <07462>; I shall not want <02637>. 2HE maketh me to lie down <07257> in green <01877> pastures <04999>: he leadeth <05095> me beside the still <04496> waters <04325>.

David was inspired by the Holy Spirit, your words would make him out like he wasn't.

As I said before you need to investigate and consider that whoever has taught you these things is a false teacher.  I know you didn't come to them by your own study and I know the Holy Spirit didn't reveal them to you.

Isn't that right?  Who taught you this Squeaky?  I know if you answer this falsely you would be lying.... further proof that the Holy Spirit is not guiding you in this belief.

Some man or woman out there has taught you these things and they have told you they are true because the Holy Spirit told them it was.  You've been shown that the words of John 1:2 refer to a man (houtos) and that man is Jesus.  You've come back with saying that the bible doesn't refer to God as a man, or as he, yet I've showed you where the Prophet David, a man after God's own heart referred to God as "he".  So if these people taught you this way and it is false the Holy Spirit is not behind their teaching.

Think and ponder this.  Satan and false teachers are trying to destroy your soul.  As I said before you can either acknowledge this and consider what we are saying (and we are trying to help you) or you can disregard it as a fool would... living in knowing ignorance.

If you do disregard it (even when you've been shown its false) and continue teaching it you have become a false teacher yourself, and you will be held accountable for that.  Its one thing to believe wrongly, its quite another to teach falsely.

I said
no person has ever taught me anything about the Word of God. The Holy Spirit has taught me everything I know. And before you criticize Him anymore you should take a look at what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is.

[Lee Freeman]

So you just opened the book one day and divine illumination rained down upon you? You never joined a church, took a class, listened to a preacher, or went to a seminary?

And anyone who doesn't believe as you do is not saved? Can you not see the arrogance in that? "Look at me! I'm receiving direct inspiration from the Holy Spirit. I don't need the Bible, because the Holy Spirit personally tells me everything I need to know and I'm always right! If you don't agree with me you're obviously wrong." You may not intend to come off that way, but that's how it sounds to us. Your logic seems to be: "How do I know I'm right? Because the Holy Spirit tells me I'm right. How do I know it's really the Holy Spirit telling me I'm right? Because the Holy Spirit says it is." Do you see the circular nature of your argument? There has to be some objective criteria for judging whether or not a given interpretation really is from the Spirit. It can't automatically be so just because you think the Spirit says it is. Do you believe there are evil spirits who can decieve people?

And anyway, if you're receiving such direct inspiration, why do you even need the Bible in the first place? You've got a kind of hot-line to the Holy Spirit.

Pax.

[Cliftyman]

no person has ever taught me anything about the Word of God

wrong answer.

[Squeakybro]

So you just opened the book one day and divine illumination rained down upon you? You never joined a church, took a class, listened to a preacher, or went to a seminary?

And anyone who doesn't believe as you do is not saved? Can you not see the arrogance in that? "Look at me! I'm receiving direct inspiration from the Holy Spirit. I don't need the Bible, because the Holy Spirit personally tells me everything I need to know and I'm always right! If you don't agree with me you're obviously wrong." You may not intend to come off that way, but that's how it sounds to us. Your logic seems to be: "How do I know I'm right? Because the Holy Spirit tells me I'm right. How do I know it's really the Holy Spirit telling me I'm right? Because the Holy Spirit says it is." Do you see the circular nature of your argument? There has to be some objective criteria for judging whether or not a given interpretation really is from the Spirit. It can't automatically be so just because you think the Spirit says it is. Do you believe there are evil spirits who can decieve people?

And anyway, if you're receiving such direct inspiration, why do you even need the Bible in the first place? You've got a kind of hot-line to the Holy Spirit.

Pax.

I said
I'm sorry that you dont like it. But there is nothing I can do about that is there. But no I have never been enfluenced by anyone on what I believe. Now if you want to get down to it. I post what I believe and you post what you believe. We cant change that. I never get upset or mad at anyone for what they believe. Its ok with me. You share what you believe and I will share what I believe. The big difference is this. What you say doesnt bother me, but what I say bothers you. Its called arouseing unclean spirits.

[Squeakybro]

no person has ever taught me anything about the Word of God

wrong answer.

I said
lol wrong answer? It cant be wrong if it is the truth. You might not like it but it is the truth.

[Lee Freeman]

So you just opened the book one day and divine illumination rained down upon you? You never joined a church, took a class, listened to a preacher, or went to a seminary?

And anyone who doesn't believe as you do is not saved? Can you not see the arrogance in that? "Look at me! I'm receiving direct inspiration from the Holy Spirit. I don't need the Bible, because the Holy Spirit personally tells me everything I need to know and I'm always right! If you don't agree with me you're obviously wrong." You may not intend to come off that way, but that's how it sounds to us. Your logic seems to be: "How do I know I'm right? Because the Holy Spirit tells me I'm right. How do I know it's really the Holy Spirit telling me I'm right? Because the Holy Spirit says it is." Do you see the circular nature of your argument? There has to be some objective criteria for judging whether or not a given interpretation really is from the Spirit. It can't automatically be so just because you think the Spirit says it is. Do you believe there are evil spirits who can decieve people?

And anyway, if you're receiving such direct inspiration, why do you even need the Bible in the first place? You've got a kind of hot-line to the Holy Spirit.

Pax.

I said
I'm sorry that you dont like it. But there is nothing I can do about that is there. But no I have never been enfluenced by anyone on what I believe. Now if you want to get down to it. I post what I believe and you post what you believe. We cant change that. I never get upset or mad at anyone for what they believe. Its ok with me. You share what you believe and I will share what I believe. The big difference is this. What you say doesnt bother me, but what I say bothers you. Its called arouseing unclean spirits.

Squeaky, your views don't make me angry in the slightest, they make me sad for you since its blatantly obvious to me that someone has decieved you. Though I will admit that your stubborn refusal to think critically can be somewhat irritating. Not to mention your illogical methodology.

You claim the Holy Spirit only quotes verses. But apparently only certain verses, and not those verses that say Jesus Christ was/is God. In order to try to convince us that those verses don't really mean what they obviously say, you drag out a Webster's dictionary and then arbitraily assign meanings to words in order to support your pre-conceived ideas. Why does the Spirit need you to use Webster's? If Jesus isn't God why did the Spirit allow verses to be written that were so easy to misunderstand in the first place? Why didn't the Spirit clarify clearly that Jesus wasn't God? Why leave verses in the Bible that cause people to believe that Jesus was God if he's not? Especially since Paul in II Timothy 3:16  says that "all scripture is inspired by God." Does it make sense to you that God would allow scripture to be written which calls Jesus God if it weren't true?

Then, when we show you from the original New Testament Greek that you're wrong, you say such is merely our "opinion."

I find it extremely hard to believe that one day you just picked up a Bible and decided on your own, without any prompting by any human teacher, that Jesus was not God, since the Bible clearly says that Jesus was God. Are you a member of a church? Or are you a church of one? Is it just you and God, or do you assemble with others who believe as you do? You say you're not a Jehovah's Witness, nor a member of Iglesia Ni Cristo, so which non-Trinitarian church do you belong to?

Pax.

[Squeakybro]

Lee you said
You claim the Holy Spirit only quotes verses. But apparently only certain verses, and not those verses that say Jesus Christ was/is God.

I said
The Word claims the Holy Spirit only quotes verses. I just happen to be a believer.

John 14:26
26   "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)

John 16:13-14
13   "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14   "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
(NKJ)

Do you want to show me them verses that say Jesus is/was God??
Because I can show you the ones where Jesus says the Father is the only true God.

John 17:1-3

1   Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2   "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3   "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

And where Paul says there is only one God the Father.

1 Cor 8:6
6   yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

Eph 4:6
6   one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(NKJ)

[Lee Freeman]

Squeaky, we've had this discussion with Ed several times.

If the Bible has verses that say YHWH is the only true God, but other verses that say Jesus is God, you have to ask yourself how can this be? You can arbitrarily decide that the verses that say Jesus was God are wrong-which opens up a whole passle of further questions, such as why these false verses were included in the Bible, the only conclusion being that the Church, beginning in the second century started mistranslating them and that scholars have continued to decieve people by mistranslating them for 1900 years. But then you have to ask yourself, is it reasonable to believe that New Testament scholars have been purposely decieving people by translating certain verses of the Bible to say that Jesus is God for 1900 years? It may be possible but is it likely? Not mention the fact that our oldest extant biblical manuscripts call Jesus God. Scribes actually used a form of shorthand for the divine names Kyrios, Theos, Iesous, and Pneuma: KY; TH; IS; PN. And those who insist that scripture has been mistranslated still have not produced an older NT manuscript which does not call Jesus and the Spirit God. Where are those original manuscripts?

Or, you can try and harmonize these various verses so that they compliment one another. You can take the whole of what scripture reveals about God, Christ and the Spirit, guided by the rules of Koine Greek, textual faithfulness, logic, and just plain old common sense. You can let yourself be guided by the context of scripture and not by your preconceived ideas. You can humbly let Scripture be what it is and say what it says, rather than trying to put it and God in a box and deciding that God couldn't and didn't incarnate himself as a man.

Squeaky, rejecting the Trinity creates problems and solves nothing. It takes more faiith to believe Squeaky's version than it does God's version.

Pax.

[Squeakybro]

Lee you said
If the Bible has verses that say YHWH is the only true God, but other verses that say Jesus is God, you have to ask yourself how can this be?

I said
But there isnt any verses that say Jesus is God. That is why I dont have to ask any of them silly questions.

[edpobre]

squeakybro,

You are correct. Jesus never claimed he is God. In fact, he said to the Father (John 17:1), "And eternal life means to know YOU, the ONLY true God and to know Jesus Christ whom YOU have SENT" (John 17:3 TEV).

Hence, to think that Jesus claimed he is God by saying "I AM" is indeed DELUSIONAL!

Ed

[da525382]

squeakybro,

You are correct. Jesus never claimed he is God. In fact, he said to the Father (John 17:1), "And eternal life means to know YOU, the ONLY true God and to know Jesus Christ whom YOU have SENT" (John 17:3 TEV).

Hence, to think that Jesus claimed he is God by saying "I AM" is indeed DELUSIONAL!

Ed

Ed,

I compare you to a magpie.  You chirp and chirp and chirp even after you have been hammered and hammered with scripture exposing your cultic beliefs about the Christ.  Do you have anything new? Really?

Don

[hmb]

Lee, this squeaky person is bad news.  You moderators  have let him have his say long enough.  His theology is unsound, and his posts are not helpful.  It's time to tell him to cash in his chips and go play somewhere else.  And the same goes for this Ed Pobre character.

[memmy]

Doesn't Pobre mean Father?

[Squeakybro]

 I'm sorry but the truth has to come out If anyone is going to come to the truth. The truth is in the Word of God(verses) not in your imagination.

2 Cor 10:3-5
3   For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4   (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5   Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
(KJV)

[DCR]

Doesn't Pobre mean Father?

"Pobre" is the Spanish word for "poor."

("Padre" is Spanish for "father.")

[Lee Freeman]

Lee you said
If the Bible has verses that say YHWH is the only true God, but other verses that say Jesus is God, you have to ask yourself how can this be?

I said
But there isnt any verses that say Jesus is God. That is why I dont have to ask any of them silly questions.

Then what are you going to do with these Squeaky?

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. (II Peter 1:1 NKJV)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels. . . (I Timothy 3:16 NKJV)

Is it "silly" to ask how these verses say that Jesus was God when you have stated dogmatically and repeatedly that there aren't any verses saying Jesus is God, since I've just posted two? I don't think so. You claim to spreak for God, yet your words contradict what my NKJV Bible actually says. Who should I believe, the Bible or Squeaky?

You cannot deny these words printed in the very Bible you use. You can't pretend they're not there simply because you don't want them to be there.

Now, if you do admit that these verses are in the Bible, then either these verses have been mistranslated by scholars wishing to decieve us, or-they're translated correctly and mean exactly what they say. If you claim they're mistranslated then you're going to have to prove it from the ancient Greek. I cannot accept a mistranslation simply because you say so. But if they have been translated correctly, then you need to reconsider your position, and your claim that the Holy Spirit told you Jesus wasn't/isn't God. Because why would the Holy Spirit tell you something that plainly contradicted the Bible?

And as an aside, you claimed to stop using the KJV because you got tired of having to look up the definition of words. Why didn't the Holy Spirit by inspiration tell you what those words mean? I'm not so sure about a prophet that has to look up the definition of scriptural words.

Squeaky, this isn't a personal attack directed at you, it's (in the probably vain) hope that you'll see that somebody has decieved you because your position makes absolutely no common sense whatsoever. Scripture plainly shows me that you're wrong. So far you've given me no cause to doubt the NKJV (or any other) translators. All you've done is remain in denial. Doesn't sound much like a spokesman for God inspired by the Holy Spirit to me. 

If all you're going to do is make those long posts insisting that you're right, yet refusing to defend and discuss your position logically, you may give us moderators no choice but to ask you to leave. I hope you'll prove willing to learn rather than treat the rest of us like children. As Peter also says: " . . . always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear." (I Peter 3:15 NKJV)

Pax.

[Squeakybro]

Lee you said
If the Bible has verses that say YHWH is the only true God, but other verses that say Jesus is God, you have to ask yourself how can this be?

I said
But there isnt any verses that say Jesus is God. That is why I dont have to ask any of them silly questions.

Then what are you going to do with these Squeaky?

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. (II Peter 1:1 NKJV)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels. . . (I Timothy 3:16 NKJV)

Is it "silly" to ask how these verses say that Jesus was God when you have stated dogmatically and repeatedly that there aren't any verses saying Jesus is God, since I've just posted two? I don't think so. You claim to spreak for God, yet your words contradict what my NKJV Bible actually says. Who should I believe, the Bible or Squeaky?

You cannot deny these words printed in the very Bible you use. You can't pretend they're not there simply because you don't want them to be there.

Now, if you do admit that these verses are in the Bible, then either these verses have been mistranslated by scholars wishing to decieve us, or-they're translated correctly and mean exactly what they say. If you claim they're mistranslated then you're going to have to prove it from the ancient Greek. I cannot accept a mistranslation simply because you say so. But if they have been translated correctly, then you need to reconsider your position, and your claim that the Holy Spirit told you Jesus wasn't/isn't God. Because why would the Holy Spirit tell you something that plainly contradicted the Bible?

And as an aside, you claimed to stop using the KJV because you got tired of having to look up the definition of words. Why didn't the Holy Spirit by inspiration tell you what those words mean? I'm not so sure about a prophet that has to look up the definition of scriptural words.

Squeaky, this isn't a personal attack directed at you, it's (in the probably vain) hope that you'll see that somebody has decieved you because your position makes absolutely no common sense whatsoever. Scripture plainly shows me that you're wrong. So far you've given me no cause to doubt the NKJV (or any other) translators. All you've done is remain in denial. Doesn't sound much like a spokesman for God inspired by the Holy Spirit to me. 

If all you're going to do is make those long posts insisting that you're right, yet refusing to defend and discuss your position logically, you may give us moderators no choice but to ask you to leave. I hope you'll prove willing to learn rather than treat the rest of us like children. As Peter also says: " . . . always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear." (I Peter 3:15 NKJV)

Pax.

I said
  Try reading them in context. The word and can be used two different ways. It can be that "and" means there different or it can be that "and "means they are the same. But its plain that verse two separates them.

2 Pet 1:1-2
1   Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2   Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,
(NKJ)

Your just assuming they mean the same. And you shouldnt assume. Anyone who is a believer knows that God was in Christ so how could anyone refer to one of them without adding the other.

2 Cor 5:19
19   that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)

But if you believe all the verses these will show you what the "and" is all about. These verses show that the Father is the only God. And when the other verses use the word "and" it is to separate them from each other but address them both.

John 17:1-3
1   Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2   "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3   "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

John 20:17
17   Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

1 Cor 8:6
6   yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

Eph 4:6
6   one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(NKJ)

[Lee Freeman]

Squeaky, I've never heard of that particular interpretive rule in ancient Greek.

Why can't Jesus be both God and Savior? That's a better reading of the context don't you think? It certainly harmonizes better with John 1:1, John 8:58, and I Timothy 3:16, which you ignored above. I Timothy 3:16 says that God was manifested in the flesh. How do you harmonize this passage? There's no way to explain this verse away (though I expect you'll give it a shot).

What about these:

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men. (Phillippians 2:5-7 NKJV)

But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your Kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8 NKJV)

Pax.

[Squeakybro]

Squeaky, I've never heard of that particular interpretive rule in ancient Greek.

Why can't Jesus be both God and Savior? That's a better reading of the context don't you think? It certainly harmonizes better with John 1:1, John 8:58, and I Timothy 3:16, which you ignored above. I Timothy 3:16 says that God was manifested in the flesh. How do you harmonize this passage? There's no way to explain this verse away (though I expect you'll give it a shot).

What about these:

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men. (Phillippians 2:5-7 NKJV)

But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your Kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8 NKJV)

Pax.

I said
In order for Jesus to be God ALL these other verses have to be wrong or you have to pervert them. Look at what your doing. Your trying every twist and turn and guile that you can to say Jesus is God. Why??
Because some person told you He was, not because the Word of God told you He was.

John 17:1-3

1   Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2   "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3   "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

John 20:17
17   Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

1 Cor 8:6
6   yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

Eph 4:6
6   one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(NKJ)

[Lee Freeman]

Squeaky, I'm not "perverting" anything-I'm quoting the verses exactly as they appear in the Bible. Read your NKJV Bible and you'll read the exact same verses. I didn't make those verses say that Jesus is God, that's what the Bible says. If you believe the verses in question have been mistranslated-prove it, from the Greek.

The burden of proof is on you to prove to the rest of us that Phillippians 2:5-7; Hebrews 1:8; I Timothy 3:16, etc., have been "perverted" by Bible scholars. So far you seem either unwilling or unable to prove this. Why are you pitting different scriptures against themselves?

And also, how can you be certain the verses calling Jesus a man haven't been tampered with?

Why do you refuse to even consider the idea that Jesus was/is both God and man? That allows for the different texts to harmonize.

If you truly speak for God by inspiration you should be able to give us proof, from the original Greek texts, that scholars have tampered with the translation. If you can't or won't do this, I see no reason to take your arguments seriously, because, as I said, simply saying "Because I say so" isn't a valid argument, nor is accusing me of perverting scripture when I'm quoting it verbatim. Your problem seems to be with Paul, the Hebrews author, and Peter for calling Jesus God, rather than with me.

Pax.

[twd]

I'm sorry but the truth has to come out If anyone is going to come to the truth. The truth is in the Word of God(verses) not in your imagination.

Squeaky,
Don't you see that this argument is a sword that cuts both ways?  I am astounded that you twist scriptures to fit your imagination, and then claim that you are speaking by the direct guidance of the Spirit, and that everyone else here is wrong.
Do you realize that your claims about Jesus put you in the camp of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, Ed Pobre's Eglesia ni Christo, and similar groups?

[Squeakybro]

Squeaky, I'm not "perverting" anything-I'm quoting the verses exactly as they appear in the Bible. Read your NKJV Bible and you'll read the exact same verses. I didn't make those verses say that Jesus is God, that's what the Bible says. If you believe the verses in question have been mistranslated-prove it, from the Greek.

The burden of proof is on you to prove to the rest of us that Phillippians 2:5-7; Hebrews 1:8; I Timothy 3:16, etc., have been "perverted" by Bible scholars. So far you seem either unwilling or unable to prove this. Why are you pitting different scriptures against themselves?

And also, how can you be certain the verses calling Jesus a man haven't been tampered with?

Why do you refuse to even consider the idea that Jesus was/is both God and man? That allows for the different texts to harmonize.

If you truly speak for God by inspiration you should be able to give us proof, from the original Greek texts, that scholars have tampered with the translation. If you can't or won't do this, I see no reason to take your arguments seriously, because, as I said, simply saying "Because I say so" isn't a valid argument, nor is accusing me of perverting scripture when I'm quoting it verbatim. Your problem seems to be with Paul, the Hebrews author, and Peter for calling Jesus God, rather than with me.

Pax.

I said
Pervertion comes from your interpretation not from the verses. Them verses dont say what you want them to. What you dont do is back them up with other verses. Like these.

John 17:1-3

1   Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2   "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3   "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

John 20:17
17   Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

1 Cor 8:6
6   yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

[Squeakybro]

I'm sorry but the truth has to come out If anyone is going to come to the truth. The truth is in the Word of God(verses) not in your imagination.

Squeaky,
Don't you see that this argument is a sword that cuts both ways?  I am astounded that you twist scriptures to fit your imagination, and then claim that you are speaking by the direct guidance of the Spirit, and that everyone else here is wrong.
Do you realize that your claims about Jesus put you in the camp of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, Ed Pobre's Eglesia ni Christo, and similar groups?

I said
That is an unfair exaggeration. I dont twist the scriptures I quote them.

John 17:1-3

1   Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2   "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3   "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

John 20:17
17   Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

1 Cor 8:6
6   yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

[Lee Freeman]

Squeaky, I'm not "perverting" anything-I'm quoting the verses exactly as they appear in the Bible. Read your NKJV Bible and you'll read the exact same verses. I didn't make those verses say that Jesus is God, that's what the Bible says. If you believe the verses in question have been mistranslated-prove it, from the Greek.

The burden of proof is on you to prove to the rest of us that Phillippians 2:5-7; Hebrews 1:8; I Timothy 3:16, etc., have been "perverted" by Bible scholars. So far you seem either unwilling or unable to prove this. Why are you pitting different scriptures against themselves?

And also, how can you be certain the verses calling Jesus a man haven't been tampered with?

Why do you refuse to even consider the idea that Jesus was/is both God and man? That allows for the different texts to harmonize.

If you truly speak for God by inspiration you should be able to give us proof, from the original Greek texts, that scholars have tampered with the translation. If you can't or won't do this, I see no reason to take your arguments seriously, because, as I said, simply saying "Because I say so" isn't a valid argument, nor is accusing me of perverting scripture when I'm quoting it verbatim. Your problem seems to be with Paul, the Hebrews author, and Peter for calling Jesus God, rather than with me.

Pax.

I said
Pervertion comes from your interpretation not from the verses. Them verses dont say what you want them to. What you dont do is back them up with other verses. Like these.

John 17:1-3

1   Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2   "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3   "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

John 20:17
17   Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

1 Cor 8:6
6   yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

There you go again! Squeaky, simply telling me the vereses-which I quoted verbatim-that refer to Jesus as God don't really mean what they say and then quoting other verses which at face glance might seem to contradict them is not proof that I'm twisting anything. You'll have to explain to me from the original Greek how those verses which very plainly call Jesus our God and Savior don't really say that. But how do you know the verses you keep quoting to "prove" Jesus is just a man haven't been twisted?

Prophets speaking under inspiration of the Holy Spirit should be able to provide answers, not just keep dodging the question and throwing verses at us.

So, for the tenth time, can you furnish textual/grammatical proof from the Greek that I'm twisting "God was manifested in the flesh" into saying Jesus was God? If God wasn't really manifested in the flesh what does it mean? If Jesus wasn't the exact image of God what was he? If Jesus isn't our God and Savior what is he?

How could "just a man"

a) Forgive sins, something scripture says only God can do

b) Be the Good Shepherd-as God is called often in the Psalms and other OT passages

c) Be I Am, how God revealed himself to Moses in Exodus

d) Be the Bread of Life; another reference to God from the OT

e) Be the Living Water; another reference to God from the OT

f) Be the Alpha and Omega in Revelation-when John says God was also the Alpha and Omega; how could both Jesus and YHWH be the Alpha and Omega unless Jesus is God?

g) Be named, among other things, Immanu-el, "God with us," and  "Mighty God" as Isaiah prophesied

h) Accept worship, when scripture clearly says we're to worship God ONLY.

Pax.

[Squeakybro]

Squeaky, I'm not "perverting" anything-I'm quoting the verses exactly as they appear in the Bible. Read your NKJV Bible and you'll read the exact same verses. I didn't make those verses say that Jesus is God, that's what the Bible says. If you believe the verses in question have been mistranslated-prove it, from the Greek.

The burden of proof is on you to prove to the rest of us that Phillippians 2:5-7; Hebrews 1:8; I Timothy 3:16, etc., have been "perverted" by Bible scholars. So far you seem either unwilling or unable to prove this. Why are you pitting different scriptures against themselves?

And also, how can you be certain the verses calling Jesus a man haven't been tampered with?

Why do you refuse to even consider the idea that Jesus was/is both God and man? That allows for the different texts to harmonize.

If you truly speak for God by inspiration you should be able to give us proof, from the original Greek texts, that scholars have tampered with the translation. If you can't or won't do this, I see no reason to take your arguments seriously, because, as I said, simply saying "Because I say so" isn't a valid argument, nor is accusing me of perverting scripture when I'm quoting it verbatim. Your problem seems to be with Paul, the Hebrews author, and Peter for calling Jesus God, rather than with me.

Pax.

I said
Pervertion comes from your interpretation not from the verses. Them verses dont say what you want them to. What you dont do is back them up with other verses. Like these.

John 17:1-3

1   Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2   "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3   "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

John 20:17
17   Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

1 Cor 8:6
6   yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

There you go again! Squeaky, simply telling me the vereses-which I quoted verbatim-that refer to Jesus as God don't really mean what they say and then quoting other verses which at face glance might seem to contradict them is not proof that I'm twisting anything. You'll have to explain to me from the original Greek how those verses which very plainly call Jesus our God and Savior don't really say that. But how do you know the verses you keep quoting to "prove" Jesus is just a man haven't been twisted?

Prophets speaking under inspiration of the Holy Spirit should be able to provide answers, not just keep dodging the question and throwing verses at us.

So, for the tenth time, can you furnish textual/grammatical proof from the Greek that I'm twisting "God was manifested in the flesh" into saying Jesus was God? If God wasn't really manifested in the flesh what does it mean? If Jesus wasn't the exact image of God what was he? If Jesus isn't our God and Savior what is he?

How could "just a man"

a) Forgive sins, something scripture says only God can do

b) Be the Good Shepherd-as God is called often in the Psalms and other OT passages

c) Be I Am, how God revealed himself to Moses in Exodus

d) Be the Bread of Life; another reference to God from the OT

e) Be the Living Water; another reference to God from the OT

f) Be the Alpha and Omega in Revelation-when John says God was also the Alpha and Omega; how could both Jesus and YHWH be the Alpha and Omega unless Jesus is God?

g) Be named, among other things, Immanu-el, "God with us," and  "Mighty God" as Isaiah prophesied

h) Accept worship, when scripture clearly says we're to worship God ONLY.

Pax.

I said
Lets make it simple. Show me the verse where it says "Jesus is God".

[Lee Freeman]

You're ducking again, Squeaky. I've already posted five or six verses (John 1:1-14; John 8:58; Phill. 2:5-7;  Col. 1:15-19; I Tim. 3:16; Hebrews 1:8; etc.) which indicate that Jesus possessed the exact same attributes and qualities of God, was the very image of God; had all the fullness of deity; created the universe; accepted worship; etc., etc. thus indicating that he was/is God. So far, all you've done in response is say "Nuh-uh!"

How could Jesus do and be all those things I posted above (forgive sins; be the Alpha and Omega; etc.) unless he were God?


But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your Kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8 NKJV)

Pax.

[HRoberson]

Same thing happened to Neil Diamond once. 

Yeah, but it was to no one there.

And no one cared - not even the chair.

HR

[spurly]

Cut off in mid sentence - what a stretch, to say the least.

[twd]

Cut off in mid sentence - what a stretch, to say the least.

Yep.  Isn't it interesting that one thing most of the cults share in common is defective Christiology?  If you don't get that right, then lots of other things are out of kilter.