OTHERS

[Bill]

I like that, Bob.  Thanks for sharing it.

Bill

[mike]

Barb,

I understand. But I wish I didn't. :(

I know that my growth as a Christian was stunted for a long time by my relationship with my parents. It seemed that it was hard for me to hear and experience the presence of God while simultaneously devaluing the relationship with my parents. My conclusion, ultimately, was that our God, who exists in relationship himself, values this so much that he can't countenance our disgarding people. I know that "disgarding" may sound harsh to many people, but I suspect you know that I mean that very word. It's what I did, and I felt very justified in doing it.

Eventually, trying to understand what experiences made my parents the way they are helped me to truly forgive them, to pray for them, and to try to rebuild a relationship with them, based on mutual respect and love. However, they wanted no part of it. They simply never learned how to love another person at all, so they are unable to love me. It's sad.

But going through this additional pain (which you may have already been through) helped free me, so it was worth it. I'm still open, if they ever want to know me before they die, but I have no idea if this will ever happen. More importantly, absorbing the pain without retaliating has helped me to understand Jesus a bit better, and my spiritual "block" has been removed.

I do agree with you that not all relationships can be sustained, even if it would be nice. Although we need to forgive, and we need to want our close family relationships to be good, this isn't enough if the other party doesn't want to go along. Forgiveness is mandatory, and is easier if we can rebuild the relationship. But, reconciliation requires work and desire on both sides. I don't think anyone should remain in an abusive relationship, especially if they have done all they can to fix it. I do pray that someday your mother will be empowered by God to change, and know what a treasure she is disgarding by not loving you unconditionally.


Bob,
Thanks for your support and wisdom. My experiences have made me all the more cognizant of the fact that my family tree contains terrible parenting going back multiple generations. I can't do anything about that, but I can try to break the cycle. I pray for wisdom and patience, and tell my own children (teenagers now) that I love them every chance I get.

Mike
:D

[peck]

How strange it is that our brain will let our outer environment effect our inner environment.Also our brain will treat feelings as fact even when our feelings are putting us down.

How to overcome the lies our brain convinces us of and to be uneffected by the influence of others may not come easy.

Thanks for sharing your stories.

God bless,Charles

[Barb1957]

thanks

[janine]

No way can I say that my growing up was anywhere near as rough as y'all's.  Still, I can look back and see various things that surely saddened God and stood in my way, dragging out my journey toward Him longer than it ought to have been.  I hope I have a little understanding of the dark place some people must struggle out of.

Some new Christians I'm working with now, a young-20's couple with a 3-yr-old daughter, have nothing, materially or background-wise, no education, literally nothing.  No way the church can ignore their needs with a "he who will not work will not eat", unless we are willing to step up to the plate individually and as a group, to help them gather the tools they need to get & keep a job.

I tried explaining the situation to another sister tonight.  She and her husband both have longterm jobs/careers, one grown son is working to support a new young wife, the other's in a Christian college.

How can this precious sister even begin to relate to growing up among drug dealers, with a broken family, most relatives addicted, abusive or both?

How can I get across to this college-educated professional sister, blessed with 'Ward & June Cleaver'-style parents, what these other Christians went through, struggling, fighting through school with no support, never being expected to achieve due to issues of race, speech impediment and reading difficulties?  What about the shuffling from foster home to foster home, what about the only seemingly positive affirmation coming from the drug dealers... because they want you for streetcorner muscle, not even because they like you...

It would be a blessing for all involved if more of the congregation took up a portion of the load... someone with a business might hire the guy, someone with property might pay him something to help them maintain it...  How will he ever break free of that microscopic government check he gets, if he's not helped over the hurdles that lie between him & a productive life?

I don't think I will be able to get all that across to people... I pray that God will get it across.  Something's got to give, 'cause the restricted circumstances people "on the dole" must put up with are heart-wrenching.

When was the last time most of us had to choose between medicine & food, between rent & shoes?

[nerdneh]

I have found that if I really don't want to help some one, I can always feel like it's really their fault they are in the mess they are in. Sort of, "You made your bed, now lie in it."

Of course, suppose God felt that way! Cf. Romans 5:1ff.

[seekr]

janine, this is the same sort of thing that i have seen over and over, as a Christian. If an elder is an overseer, then by God's own definition that man is NOT an elder. The scripture "he who does not work...etc." has been greatly abused. How many scriptures are there about feeding one another and sharing with no stipulations? In the scripture about those not working there is more to it than just that. The people were also gossipping and creating trouble and they were idle. It is so easy to pick out a scripture so we do not have to love actively. There are too many scriptures to list, over feeding, not only your brother, neighbor, friend, but also your enemy. This why God gave me that writing "Sight For Loves' Sake" and has showed me what loving Him means. If in Matthew 25 it says "the LEAST of my brethren, you have done it to me--or NOT done it to me--this is the difference between the goats and the sheep. You are the sheep, because you care and much more of an overseer than that old goa...(shouldn't go that far, huh?)? And it is true what you say and what I have discovered also about the weight thing as I have struggled greatly also with food from not being able to buy the healthier alternatives-

[nerdneh]

The way this line of thought is developing has me thinking; "What Scriptures do we commonly use to evade our duty?"
Obviously, "If any will not work..." seems big in the La church Janine is in.

I have heard reasoning like this over the years; "The disciples shared everything in Acts 2ff, but that was only temporary, we don't have to do that anymore. It's not expected. Hey, what are you, a communist or something?"

"Miracles were needed to confirm the Word in the 1st Century, but since it has already been confirmed, we don't need any miracles anymore."

"Spiritual gifts were necessary before there was a New Testament Canon, but now that we have the Bible all bound together, we don't need any gifts anymore. We're pretty much on our own now, but at least we've got a road map to lead us to heaven."

"In the New Testament leadership was by example, 1st Peter 5:ff., but now elders are more or less bosses, too bad, but people need to be controlled or they will just go off and study the Bible with each other and pray together, and who knows what that will lead to?"

Then, the scary one; "Inasmuch as you did it not to the least of these my brothers, you did it not to me."  "Nowadays we will be judged on how sound our doctrine is, not by how we helped people."

[Skip]

Bob,

(Pardon me for 'jumping in' in the middle of the discussion...)

Ok.
I'll call.
I can't resist.

You begin your post speaking of our 'duty'. That suggests to me that your points following are 'duties' of Christians.

So...

Give me examples of how you are fulfilling, or are working toward fulfilling, the points that you raised.
Or churches that are moving toward your ideal.

Particularly the first three points caught my attention.

Do we have an example of even a first-century church that achieved - or even bothered to try to achieve - the example set by the Jerusalem church?
If the Jerusalem church was an exception among first-century churches, then should we condemn those who simply follow the rule rather then the exception?

Do we have a consistent record of miracles / spiritual gifts down through the centuries, and even today? We live in a time in which miracles such as those which were accomplished by early Christians in the name of Jesus - raising the dead, healing the obviously crippled, walking out of prisons by divine intervention, etc. - should be show-stopping headlines.
I simply ask - if miracles confirmed the Word in the first century - and that is part of the Christian's 'duty' - then why is there no such confirmation since the first century?
(Maybe the 'evasion' is in fact not an evasion, but the truth?)

I pity those whose elders might flaunt the direct command of Peter in 1 Peter 5ff. While historically some 'church' leadership has been known on occasion to surpress Bible study, I'm not aware of any 'mainstream' groups today that would prevent their members from engaging in Bible study and prayer (outside of the Sunday / Wednesday 'business' hours).
Such overbearing control is an attibute of groups that are widely considered to be 'cults', though I hesitate to use the word 'cult' since it means different things to different people.

I do find your last point to be the most valid, though I would hope that you would still attach a proper value to sound doctrine.

[nerdneh]

What Others Cannot Do for US

Earl Wilson has written some great ideas on "others."

I cannot help but notice how much our focus has been on "others" and what they think and act like, etc. This is not a criticism, just an observation. I suppose I need to remind myself to turn to Jesus for affirmation, since I probably am not going to get others to change enough, and if I wait around for that to happen, I may be waiting a very long time!

1.  Others cannot give us value.  People can value us, but they cannot give us value.  We have inherent value because the Creator places value on us.  You and I have to discover this value and claim it for ourselves.

2.  Others cannot convince us we have value.  Sometimes people like us much more than we like ourselves.  We continue to devalue ourselves even when they affirm us.  Only God has the Masterview of reality, and if He feels our souls are worth more than the whole world, we must accept His view.

3.  Others cannot make us feel good.  We feel bad because we choose to feel bad, we feel good because we choose to feel good.  We may ask ourselves why we are choosing to be unhappy.

4.  Others cannot make good choices for me.  Self-esteem results from a series of good choices we make for ourselves. These choices lead us to a life in which God is able to bless us.  Others cannot make these choices for us, and we cannot blame others for choices we have failed to make, or wrong choices we have made.  If you want Jesus to control your life, you must make the choices that make this possible.

5.  Others cannot take responsibility for our well-being.  Christianity protects the integrity of the individual while offering the support of the community of believers.  We can be there for others but we cannot take responsibility for their decisions.  If we carry someone they will never be able to walk on their own.

From Earl d. Wilson, The Discovered Self, pp. 122-126.  Dr. Wilson is Director of the Lake Psychological and Counseling Services in Lake Oswego, Oregon

[mike]

Thanks, Bob. Very powerful and life-changing truth.

I personally learned a deep sense of worthlessness from my parents. I tried for decades to be good enough to earn their love, and never succeeded. As this effort crumbled around me, it seemed that my life indeed was senseless and worthless. I became profoundly depressed and ultimately suicidal. In desperation, I cried out to God, and he saved me from the tragedy of death by my own hand.

This was part of my process of learning (read: experiencing) the grace, mercy, and love of God. I have learned to actively pursue my sanctification, knowing that I am eternally justified in Christ. I finally understood that if Christ is for me, who can be against me?

This freedom has given me great hope and peace, and has even brought me to the point where I can somewhat understand, but certainly forgive and bless my parents, even though they don't love me. It just doesn't matter any more.

And yet, old feelings die hard. They continue, like weeds, to resurface and have to be dealt with. I have found that we can't change our feelings by willpower. Even a strong will, backed up by certain knowledge, is rapidly defeated by "automatic" emotional responses. So, what we have to do, is to control our thoughts. The transformation of our spirit by the indwelling of God's Spirit does give us the power to, more and more all the time, think on good things. As we ponder positive truths, our feelings naturally (and perhaps supernaturally) change, and no longer trip us up as before.

When our feelings are down or our mood is dark, we need to stop and revisit what we have been thinking. Refusing to believe Satan, and instead dwelling on God's truth and promises will then lift our spirits, and help us to feel as free as we, in Reality, actually are.

I know this may sound contrived to some of you. But, through experience, I can testify that it is certainly true. It has changed my life.

God bless you all.

Mike

[nerdneh]

Barb and Mike; Yes, thank God for deliverance. If we who are parents could only understand a simple truth, as one writer said it, that we have golden coins to slip into the pockets of our children and we should do it whenever possible.

What are these golden coins? A compliment, praise, hug, pat on the back, whatever affirmation you can give. Each time you do this you slip a golden coin into that child's hand.

Years later they will face moments when all that can help will be to reach into their pocket and pull out a golden coin. Pray God we have put plenty of these where they can get them.

Of course, God gives us a ready supply of these, but it is His will that parents do that essential work for Him. If they do not, then we can be sure God will help us. But someone broke the chain of giving and it makes it hard.

[janine]

Terrific thread, y'all.  I may need to print out the whole for a friend. :)

[seekr]

Mike (Mole) This was the one i wanted to comment on, and I lost the first post and the second one I deleted. A bit of a hard subject. When you wrote-->I personally learned a deep sense of worthlessness from my parents. I tried for decades to be good enough to earn their love, and never succeeded. As this effort crumbled around me, it seemed that my life indeed was senseless and worthless. I became profoundly depressed and ultimately suicidal. In desperation, I cried out to God, and he saved me from the tragedy of death by my own hand.<  this is so much of my life. I had a harsh, legalistic dad, who I could never measure up to and spent too many years trying to be found acceptable. I also came close to ending up destroying myself--my younger sister has little time left, from alcohol and drug abuse, my dad's legacy, and my older sister is headed in the same direction. I finally actually did come to terms with it all as God's love overwhelmed me. My dad died this past Dec. and I felt no loss, as I'd lost him a long time ago, but instead had a sense of release and freedom. Up until he died I still hoped (love always hopes) and prayed and tried to reconcile with him, asking him to forget the past and start anew. But his hardness remained. I cannot tell you what he had against me, as I wasn't sure, except I did not placate him, anymore to be found worthy. I was polite, but it was always strained. At the memorial service it was such a powerful thing to see the damage wreaked by him--my sister with blackened legs, and vacant eyes, spewing hatred and too wasted to know what was even happening. I hope this isn't going too far in the telling, that is why I deleted the second post. But there is such hope for those who love God and I have found it doesn't matter how long it takes, God's love is so perfect and so is His timing. I used to put my dad's face on God and for years felt unworthy of His love. If we do not accept our accountability for the damage inflicted upon others while on this earth, then we face God with it--and that is why I felt such a release and peace. I would also like to share a poem I wrote titled "My Dad".

My dad, thoughtful, caring--
    brings warmth in a cold world.
My dad gives me the benefit of the doubt--
    even when all the cards are stacked against me.
He sees the person I'm becoming--
    not the failures that have been.
When I stumble--
    his steady hand holds me.
When I crumble-
    his soft touch soothes my brow.
I'd be lost without his love--
    that overlooks all my flaws.
When I fear the night coming--
    he brings me light.
When the storm threatens my safety--
    he stands watch through the night.
When I ask for bread--
    he feeds me from his table.
And for me, He gave his life--
    my God born in a stable.

My earthly dad was the opposite of all those things, but God truly does lift us up when we are deserted by our parents.

Maurine

[mike]

Seekr,

Thank you for sharing your story with me, Maurine. It made me cry. :(  Not a bad thing, though. Just the catharsis of connecting with someone with similar experiences; the relief of being understood rather than being condemned.

I wonder if those of us with such backgrounds feel God's grace and mercy and love even more acutely than the rest of his children?

Praise God that he rescued you from awful circumstances. Your posts here bless many people, including me, and I am grateful that you are my sister.

Mike
:)

[janine]

P.S.

That same sister, noting how the young couple in question are very tall, very heavy people, commented that no one would ever believe they ever went hungry...

Well, that may be true; no one would have believed that of myself & my Mike, either, back when we did sometimes wonder where our next meal was coming from.

When you live on a tight food budget, such as one mostly funded by Food Stamps, you play it safe and stock up on filling, high-carb foods.  You go for the most food, by mass, you can get for the money.  It ain't Romaine lettuce and organic tofu.  That's how no money and no reliable transportation to the store ends up making many poor people fat.

And this sister-in-the-Lord I was talking with, trying to help her understand the long process it may be to help our new family up out of the hole they're in, is a nutritionist/dietician.  

She oughta be able to explain how hard it is to live on fresh lean meats and fresh produce when you have an insufficent budget, if anybody wonders why such poor people are also fat.

She also is the best one to re-teach our new sister about diet/health/cooking on a budget, dontcha think?  I'll have to tell her so.  That oughta fall right in line with what's "expected" of her as an elder's wife...

[janine]

Well, they may be making their bed every day, now, because they are adults and parents and have just become Christians, but they didn't manufacture the creaky, pokey-springed thing.

Surely, there will have to be accountability and hand-in-hand working with them if the church is going to do them any good materially.  And, sometime, the "he who will not work will not eat" has gotta kick in... but surely you don't take an infant or a person severely handicapped and throw them out onto the desert sands with a curt command to "Walk!  Carry your own load!"

Mike has sighed that the whole congregation would be slavering to help them if they were even just middle-class, and more so if they were middle-class or above & Caucasian.

One of the elders got a call from them that they had no food & would not be able to help themselves until their food stamps or disability income came in.  He never followed up on it or mentioned it to the church as a need or even told them to come in for something from the church's food pantry we use to help strangers who come in off the street.

Two days later, when they were down to stale bread and margarine, Mike went to see them for their regular weekly study, & found out about it.  Boy, was he steamed.

We did something about it ourselves when he found out.  Our college-student daughter chipped in some of her hard-won fast-food pay.  A sister who has been labelled "subversive" by the leadership sent a big bag from her own pantry, too, and she's got a family of 7+ to feed.

The "sound" members might've helped, but the elder in question didn't think it worthwhile to give them the opportunity... if it happens again, and I put the word out more broadly, I don't know how that'll work... I'm already under scrutiny for wanting to gather women to study & pray with no men around...

[seekr]

whoops! didn't finish--started to lose my connection. And I am on a roll (speaking of food). Although i may add a little humor to some of what I write I believe this subject is very serious and with dire consequences for those who choose judgment over mercy. I would rather be accused of being foolish and being used, than not showing concern. I think at one time or another we all fall victim to someone--BUT that is the enemy's trap to keep us from meeting the needs of others. I have heard so often about how someone was poor once or while they were growing up or lived through the great depression--so that is why they don't give. That should make them want to give more and I know fear can try to undermine that--but perfect love casts out fear. If I have to go again without something temporarily so that my brother or my family may have some of what i have,--I trust God enough to wait for Him to deliver. I have  gone without meals (though it doesn't look like it) and a couple days with no food and survived, and could again. We should not always wait either for others to tell us, but ask consistently and with love as the rule we live by. I know I have something someone else could use or food that they could eat. We should be disciples who when Jesus said "you feed them" with the hungry multitude before them, show the "works" of our faith.

Read Theophilus

Read theophilus

Maurine

[janine]

Scary.  Or at least there are some people who need to develop a holy fear.

I've already got mine... it's an awe/respect/fear of God, though, not a worry about what Man may do to me.