2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 apostasy

[kingdom-heir]

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth God and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

I am very curious what you all think about this falling away (apostasy). It seems to me that when paganism was mixed into Catholicism, that was and is that "falling away" and the pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ. What mockery!

[Bonnie]

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth God and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

I am very curious what you all think about this falling away (apostasy). It seems to me that when paganism was mixed into Catholicism, that was and is that "falling away" and the pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ. What mockery!

I believe the great falling away is here and will get worse as many more buy into false religions like the New Age.

[kingdom-heir]

Bonnie,

Have you ever read the Oath that the Jesuits take? If not, please do. Then you will know why Protestant churches are so unbiblical. RC, which is Judaism and Paganism in disguise, is the root. Here's the oath; http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=jesuit
and here is the evidence for the rest of my statement above; http://www.watch.pair.com/mystery-babylon.html

[s1n4m1n]

I think you are wrong. I think the "falling away" or apostasy here is the same thing as written in the Hebrews of the Jewish Christians who rejected the blood of Christ and returned to the temple worship.

[broach972]

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth God and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

I am very curious what you all think about this falling away (apostasy). It seems to me that when paganism was mixed into Catholicism, that was and is that "falling away" and the pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ. What mockery!

More anti-Catholic rubbish...it just keeps getting better and better.

[Bigdog]

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth God and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

I am very curious what you all think about this falling away (apostasy). It seems to me that when paganism was mixed into Catholicism, that was and is that "falling away" and the pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ. What mockery!

I believe that the great falling away is part of all religions not specific denomanation, where ever people gather in the Name of Jesus, The enemy or his workers are right there with them. To me we are all wrong when we say one church or Religion is better.

[Bonnie]

Bonnie,

Have you ever read the Oath that the Jesuits take? If not, please do. Then you will know why Protestant churches are so unbiblical. RC, which is Judaism and Paganism in disguise, is the root. Here's the oath; http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=jesuit
and here is the evidence for the rest of my statement above; http://www.watch.pair.com/mystery-babylon.html

I read both sites and some of that is really wild.

[Lee Freeman]

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth God and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

I am very curious what you all think about this falling away (apostasy). It seems to me that when paganism was mixed into Catholicism, that was and is that "falling away" and the pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ. What mockery!

I think trying to link the Catholic Church with the falling away in II Thessalonians is a stretch at best.  Personally, I think the heresy Paul and other NT authors were most often referring to was a religious movement much closer to their own time-one he himself and other NT authors (John and Jude) actually wrote against. Namely, Gnosticism.

Gnosticism, from a Greek word for knowledge, gnosis, first infiltrated the church in the mid-first century but really exploded in the mid-2nd century, but has roots in the first century.

Gnosticism was a radical version of Greek Platonism mixed with Christianity and a little bit of Judaism. Basically, Gnostics believed the material universe was created by a false impostor god, known as the Demiurge and often associated with the Jewish God YHWH. The Demiurge was created when Sophia, an aspect of the divine Pleroma, or "fullness," emanated without her male counterpart. The divine souls of men got trapped in physical bodies, hence the goal of Gnostics was to use special wisdom imparted by Christ to a select few to spiritually evelove out one's physical body.

In Gnostic theology, Jesus wasn't God incarnate, he was a lesser divine being, an emanation from the divine Pleroma. He came to give secret teaching to certain of his disciples, who in turn would pass it on to certain select people, and so on. Because Jesus was divine, he couldn't contaminate himself by coming into contact with matter, hence his incarnation was only an illusion. In other words, Jesus didn't have a real, flesh-and-blood body. At his crucifixion, it wasn't really Jesus physically suffering-it was an illusion, or according to some Gnostics, a stand-in.

John in I and II John says that anyone who denies that Jesus had a physical, fleshly body was/is an antichrist. And in I and II Corinthians, Paul rebukes certain people in this church for arrogantly claiming to have a special knowledge that not everyone possessed. In I Timothy he tells Timothy to upbraid certain people in the Ephesian church for causing discord by discussing silly mythologies which were probably Gnostic.

Jude may also condemn Gnostic heresies. According to scholar and pastor Bobby Valentine, "Now if it is gnosticism that is the ultimate root of the problem in Jude then v.9 makes some sense. It was the "body" that Michael disputed with Satan about. This is important. Gnostics believed the body (human flesh) was worthless and redemption for them was the ultimate shedding of flesh/body. But Jude shows it was not the SPIRIT of Moses that was in dispute but the BODY of Moses. God cared about the body of Moses."

So I think Gnosticism was the heresy Jesus, Paul and the other NT authors most often had in mind. A kind of proto-gnosticism infiltrated the church in the mid-first century and emerged full-blown by the mid-second century. But they also warned about be the Judaizing heresy of Acts 15, Galatians, etc. in which certain Jewish converts to Christianity were trying to make Greek converts become Jews before they became Christians, particularly through circumcision.

Regardless, I don't think Roman Catholicism was what the NT writers had in mind.

Pax.

[It-Is-Written]

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth God and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

I am very curious what you all think about this falling away (apostasy). It seems to me that when paganism was mixed into Catholicism, that was and is that "falling away" and the pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ. What mockery!

Hi Kingdom-heir,

My late Pastor were a whole book on just that subject:
The Great Falling Away Today
http://home1.gte.net/web23vhn/milton_green-no-frames.htm
If any wish a free copy E-mail we, we love giving to God's Body. 

Be blessed all how are of the Obedient being in Christ Jesus! 

[It-Is-Written]

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth God and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

I am very curious what you all think about this falling away (apostasy). It seems to me that when paganism was mixed into Catholicism, that was and is that "falling away" and the pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ. What mockery!

I believe the great falling away is here and will get worse as many more buy into false religions like the New Age.

The New Age (false brethren) have crept into the (so called) churches which are of the purpose driven and the emergent, there's nothing more we can do but watch and pray. They have put away from themselves the Commandments of The Heavenly Father to make a name for themselves and they shall perish in their filthiness. But they can still repent while it is still called ~today~.

Even My Father couldn't speak into the Tower of Babel (words, words words) so He confounded their language -  that IS EXACTLY what we're seeing today in all this One-Language-Globalism-Socialism Society. 

My Heavenly Father hath said:

Gen 11:1-9
11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
KJV


Jude 3-8
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
KJV

[Jimbob]

If you're interested in both sides of an argument...

http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Anti-Catholicism/jesuit_oath_debunked.htm

[kingdom-heir]

It is only to be expected that the authors of such an evil scheme as that oath would deny it and throw up a gauntlet. I have been studying world conquest for 16 years. I know that there are several versions of the oath, for the different divisions of the fourth beast of Daniel. You will very probably mislead many of the unlearned people who read your writings.
You shall not utter a false report. Exodus 23:1 [RSV]

[Jimbob]

It's not my site there.  I'm just showing that there are two sides to the story.  Instead of just defensively lobbing Ex. 23:1 back over the fence, why not deal with his debunking of the info at your link?  You do realize that the ol' "of course they deny it" argument really is no argument whatsoever, don't you?

[It-Is-Written]

It is only to be expected that the authors of such an evil scheme as that oath would deny it and throw up a gauntlet. I have been studying world conquest for 16 years. I know that there are several versions of the oath, for the different divisions of the fourth beast of Daniel. You will very probably mislead many of the unlearned people who read your writings.
You shall not utter a false report. Exodus 23:1 [RSV]

You mentioned a very powerful word when you said "mislead".  God bless you richly! 

The great falling away has already taken place, you would shiver and quake if you knew where we are right now.

[Jimbob]

Of course, the problem is that duration of study ≠ truth, so who is being "mislead" and who is doing the "misleading" is not as settled a matter as you would have people here believe. 

Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto, The DaVinci Code and the books of Christopher Hitchens are in the Library of Congress, too, but it doesn't mean that their contents = truth.  Same goes for the contents of your supposed "oath of the Jesuits."  It's salacious, yes, but true? Not just because someone paid $30 to file a piece of paper in the Library of Congress, it's not. You'll need to present real evidence.  As it is, you're just feeding people's suspicions rather than presenting a sound case.

[broach972]

Bonnie,

Have you ever read the Oath that the Jesuits take? If not, please do. Then you will know why Protestant churches are so unbiblical. RC, which is Judaism and Paganism in disguise, is the root. Here's the oath; http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=jesuit
and here is the evidence for the rest of my statement above; http://www.watch.pair.com/mystery-babylon.html

The Jesuit Oath you refer to has been exposed as a fraud.  Don't even get me started on Dr. Alberto Rivera, who claimed to be a Jesuit and provided confirmation for this so called "oath."  What a joke.

[James Rondon]

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth God and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

I am very curious what you all think about this falling away (apostasy).

I believe that the falling away will directly precede the second coming of Christ, and will be tied to the revelation of the antichrist. Perhaps it will have to do with the coming one-world religion, and worship of the antichrist?

[Lee Freeman]

Of course, the problem is that duration of study ≠ truth, so who is being "mislead" and who is doing the "misleading" is not as settled a matter as you would have people here believe. 

Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto, The DaVinci Code and the books of Christopher Hitchens are in the Library of Congress, too, but it doesn't mean that their contents = truth.  Same goes for the contents of your supposed "oath of the Jesuits."  It's salacious, yes, but true? Not just because someone paid $30 to file a piece of paper in the Library of Congress, it's not. You'll need to present real evidence.  As it is, you're just feeding people's suspicions rather than presenting a sound case.

Critical thinking usually goes out the window in such cases. These silly conspiracy theories tell people exactly what they want to hear. Occasionally, there's just enough truth in them to lend them an air of credibility-if one doesn't check too carefully. But its easier to simply repeate tired disproven stereotypes and false information than it is to actually bother to study the person or group for ourselves.


Pax.

[Lee Freeman]

It may shock many here at GCM to know that there is an elite squad of Jesuit ninjas running around knocking off high-ranking Protestant clergy with hits out on them from the Vatican. There are two orders-the Fathers, and the Brothers. The motto of the Fathers is Mass Destruction. The Latin sounds even more ominous! These elite holy warriors secretly train at a hidden mountain fastness near Monte Cassino. Their silver crucifixes cleverly conceal a dagger-blade-just push down on Christ's head and a thin, razor-sharp dagger blade snaps out! And if you take the beads off one of their rosaries you've got a handy-dandy garroting tool! Those censers used in the mass make great projectile bombs, not to mention the holy water aspergilium which make great acid flickers. I hear through "channels" that Pat Robertson has a hit out on him from the Vatican. He better watch out!  It's 11:44. Do you know where your pastor is?

Pax.

[kingdom-heir]

Lee,

Could you please explain to me, what Daniel 7:23 is speaking of, if not world conquest. If it is world conquest, is that not the same as conspiracy?

[Lee Freeman]

Lee,

Could you please explain to me, what Daniel 7:23 is speaking of, if not world conquest. If it is world conquest, is that not the same as conspiracy?

Daniel 7 and other similar passages employ standard Jewish apocalyptic language, which uses figurative language such as numbers, clouds, beasts, horns, armies of conquest, etc. Ancient Jews knew not to interpret such passages literally.

But assuming Daniel 7 was/is talking about armies of conquest, it probably referred to ancient powers such as the Babylonians, Assyrians, Greeks or Romans, all of whom at one time conquered and occupied Palestine. The idea that Daniel 7 is a prophecy of events in the 21st century is probably incorrect. Daniel had to have made sense to its original, first readers/hearers, which prophecies of armies some 2,500 years later wouldn't.

Charles Taze Russel (founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses) used Daniel to prophesy the end-times in the 1880s, then when it didn't happen he revised his calculations to the 1890s, then yet again in World War I; Hal Lindsay used Daniel to prophesy the end-times in the 1970s. Jack Van Impe in the 1990s. Tim LaHaye in the 2000s. So who was right? Apparently none of them.

Regardless, the idea that Daniel 7 has anything to do with the Jesuits is ridiculous.

Pax.

[kingdom-heir]

But assuming Daniel 7 was/is talking about armies of conquest, it probably referred to ancient powers such as the Babylonians, Assyrians, Greeks or Romans, all of whom at one time conquered and occupied Palestine. The idea that Daniel 7 is a prophecy of events in the 21st century is probably incorrect. Daniel had to have made sense to its original, first readers/hearers, which prophecies of armies some 2,500 years later wouldn't.


Pax.

Your "intelligence" baffles me         

[Jimbob]

The Catholics were not the next great world power in line after the Babylonians, the Medo-Persian Empire, and the Greeks.  Sorry, history just didn't go there.  It was the Roman Empire (led by caesars, not popes). 

[It-Is-Written]

But assuming Daniel 7 was/is talking about armies of conquest, it probably referred to ancient powers such as the Babylonians, Assyrians, Greeks or Romans, all of whom at one time conquered and occupied Palestine. The idea that Daniel 7 is a prophecy of events in the 21st century is probably incorrect. Daniel had to have made sense to its original, first readers/hearers, which prophecies of armies some 2,500 years later wouldn't.


Pax.

Your "intelligence" baffles me         

KH,

To get to the heart of the issue in God's Word, why don't you take the labels off (it's this one or that etc.) and just describe the Nature
of The Word the beast points to describles and it will convict souls. And if others report you for flaming them then you'll know it convicted.
God's Word spoken in truth always convicts and flesh will always get mad or the people will repent. For that is the goal of warning others,
so that they might repent of the flesh nature.

[It-Is-Written]

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth God and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

I am very curious what you all think about this falling away (apostasy).

I believe that the falling away will directly precede the second coming of Christ, and will be tied to the revelation of the antichrist. Perhaps it will have to do with the coming one-world religion, and worship of the antichrist?

Your right - but there is no perhaps about it. Speak words of certainity and others will learn and be instructed to grow in the truth.

[Lee Freeman]

But assuming Daniel 7 was/is talking about armies of conquest, it probably referred to ancient powers such as the Babylonians, Assyrians, Greeks or Romans, all of whom at one time conquered and occupied Palestine. The idea that Daniel 7 is a prophecy of events in the 21st century is probably incorrect. Daniel had to have made sense to its original, first readers/hearers, which prophecies of armies some 2,500 years later wouldn't.


Pax.

Your "intelligence" baffles me         

What is baffling about the fact that any text of scripture would first and foremost have to have made sense and been intelligible to its original readers? Daniel wasn't originally written to 21st century fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant Dispensational Premillennialist Christians. It was originally written for an intertestamental Jewish audience. So before I jump in there and ask "What is Daniel saying to me?" I have to first ask "What was Daniel saying to those intertestamental Jews who first read his book?" Then I'm in a much better position to understand what I'm supposed ton take from Daniel.

Not considering the original context of a scripture text would be like someone from the 23rd century trying to interpret the Gettysburg Address without any knowledge of Antebellum slavery or the American Civil War. They might be able to infer some of it from the text, but they wouldn't fully understand or appreciate it without the historical and social context of 1860s Civil War America.

There are rules that must be followed when interpreting scripture. Scripture is comprised of many different genres-poetry; metaphor; allegory; apocalyptic; and historical narrative. There are different rules used to interpret the different genres.  One cannot, for example, interpret poetry in the Bible (the Psalms, Song of Solomon) the same way one would interpret historical narrative (I and II Kings, the birth narratives of the gospels). If we claim to respect the Bible then it is imperative that we pay attention to its complexities and not "dumb it down" by recklessly interpreting everything literally.

Pax.

[Bonnie]

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth God and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

I am very curious what you all think about this falling away (apostasy).

I believe that the falling away will directly precede the second coming of Christ, and will be tied to the revelation of the antichrist. Perhaps it will have to do with the coming one-world religion, and worship of the antichrist?

Yes, could be. I believe it is a gradual thing that keeps taking people away from the truth little by little so that many will not recognize the difference.  Satan is too smart and too sly to try and turn people away all at once.

[It-Is-Written]

Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth God and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

I am very curious what you all think about this falling away (apostasy).

I believe that the falling away will directly precede the second coming of Christ, and will be tied to the revelation of the antichrist. Perhaps it will have to do with the coming one-world religion, and worship of the antichrist?

Yes, could be. I believe it is a gradual thing that keeps taking people away from the truth little by little so that many will not recognize the difference.  Satan is too smart and too sly to try and turn people away all at once.

Amen, Satan is the root enemy behind all Deceptions.

[Lee Freeman]

Lee,

Could you please explain to me, what Daniel 7:23 is speaking of, if not world conquest. If it is world conquest, is that not the same as conspiracy?

Daniel 8:19-22 tells us who the nations that will wage war are:

He said: "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.  The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

I don't see the US, the former USSR, Iraq, Iran, Israel, China, N. Korea, or the Roman Catholic Church among those kings. But I do see four ancient kingdoms of the near-East.

Pax.