PLEASE, let's have some real debate

[papist1]

I am yawwnnnning at all of the elementary childhood assaults on Catholicism in here. Can anyone around here please offer up some actual topics that don't have anything to do with people sinning in the middle ages? I mean really, can't we have some healthy civil discourse on matters of actual catholic doctrine? I am not speaking of Catholic's worshipping saints etc.... as this is false and everyone knows the church has never taught this or most other popular detractive topics circling the protestant churches. I too was once an anti catholic protestant, and after a deep study of church history in the first four centuries I had no other choice but to come home.

I look forward to real discussion.

peace, papist

[kensington]

Not really... I'm just really tired of discussing Catholicism.  It seems to be all you Catholics want to talk about. 

[papist1]

Not really... I'm just really tired of discussing Catholicism.  It seems to be all you Catholics want to talk about. 

LOL!

I want to talk about truth, and it seems that I am only finding it in the Catholic teachings. Everything else seems to be new winds of doctrine tossing folks two and fro.

peace, papist

[larry2]

As a Catholic I knew little of the actual Bible, though I did know most dogma of the Church. As an ex-Catholic I love the Bible. Are you wanting to discuss scripture or dogmas, because I have no interest in arguing whether this or that religious organization is right or wrong; there's enough of that on this forum.

If you're wanting to debate different concepts and know your Bible, I will start off asking you who Jesus' angel is, and we can expand from there. If this type of thing is not what you're looking for, I'll just say thanks anyway.

In Jesus' name - larry2

[papist1]

As a Catholic I knew little of the actual Bible, though I did know most dogma of the Church. As an ex-Catholic I love the Bible. Are you wanting to discuss scripture or dogmas, because I have no interest in arguing whether this or that religious organization is right or wrong; there's enough of that on this forum.

If you're wanting to debate different concepts and know your Bible, I will start off asking you who Jesus' angel is, and we can expand from there. If this type of thing is not what you're looking for, I'll just say thanks anyway.

In Jesus' name - larry2

Sure, I will debate you on the 73 books of the Bible.

Which of the 30,000 plus interpretations from protestantism would you like to start with? I mean after all, it is like burger king when it is just you and the Bible, claiming the Holy Spirit. Have it yur way, right? And who's interpretation is correct on a matter of doctrine, and how can you decide who's is correct? oh, it's always yours that is correct, right? right.

Why would I torture myself with more relativism, as is rampant in scripture alone theory theology?

Why don't we start with the very heart of the matter?

-AUTHORITY

Is scripture alone(sola scriptura) the authority?

Or is Sacred Scripture equal to Sacred Tradition the apostles handed down? 2 thess 2:15

Let's debate this, since it is at the root of our differences.

Also, I am sorry that you did not listen at mass your entire life and learn the Bible, since the entire Bible was read every three years at the mass on Sundays, and it was read evey year at daily mass.

Please show me, from scripture, where Jesus or anyone else taught that the NT and OT canon is the sole authority of God on this earth.

peace, papist

[larry2]

I'm sorry you are so locked in to trying to prove your faith to others, but I know Whom I have believed, and I am certain  and am persuaded that He is able to guard the trust committed to me against that day.

If you're just looking for an argument laced with sarcasm, there are many on the forum willing to do that, and I'll just wait to discuss scripture with someone else. I asked a simple question not answered by you, for I thought you knew the answer from your perspective with all your resources.

Sorry I seemed to offend you in Jesus' name - larry2

[papist1]

I'm sorry you are so locked in to trying to prove your faith to others, but I know Whom I have believed, and I am certain  and am persuaded that He is able to guard the trust committed to me against that day.

If you're just looking for an argument laced with sarcasm, there are many on the forum willing to do that, and I'll just wait to discuss scripture with someone else. I asked a simple question not answered by you, for I thought you knew the answer from your perspective with all your resources.

Sorry I seemed to offend you in Jesus' name - larry2

I am asking a basic question, at the root of the protestant/catholic disagreement.
I see that you cannot defend your position. Thanks for the vindication.

Why do you even participate in a forum that is so evidently above and beyond your ability to comprehend? Especially when you are not open to the possibility that your position could be incorrect, since it has only existed for less than 500 years of Christendom.

peace, papist

[larry2]

I reckon your attitude and debatable portions of scripture comes from an extraordinary knowledge of the Catholic Bible. I have yet to find one Catholic that can defend their own Bible without resulting to the writings, or dogmas of some Pope. Regardless of history, I no longer believe what some have determined to be truth when their doctrines clearly deny their own scripture they so valiantly defended through the ages.

I would truly doubt that you even believe you're guaranteed of going to heaven, and you seem to desire a prideful defense by berating any that would enter into Christian discussion with you such as when you said "I see that you cannot defend your position." Titus 3:9. "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and quarrels and disputes about the Law; for they are useless and futile."

In Jesus' name- larry2

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Do you realize that when you appeal to authority, and the person that you're debating doesn't recognize the authority you're appealing to, that you've made no argument better than,

"because I said so!"

Do you think you've won if your opponent stops talking?  There's nothing there to argue with...they're still waiting for your argument!  So if you want "real debate" you're going to have to forgo that tactic and prove things based on logic and history.  Appeals to authority aren't effectual in this milieu.

[papist1]

I reckon your attitude and debatable portions of scripture comes from an extraordinary knowledge of the Catholic Bible. I have yet to find one Catholic that can defend their own Bible without resulting to the writings, or dogmas of some Pope. Regardless of history, I no longer believe what some have determined to be truth when their doctrines clearly deny their own scripture they so valiantly defended through the ages.

I would truly doubt that you even believe you're guaranteed of going to heaven, and you seem to desire a prideful defense by berating any that would enter into Christian discussion with you such as when you said "I see that you cannot defend your position." Titus 3:9. "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and quarrels and disputes about the Law; for they are useless and futile."

In Jesus' name- larry2

Guaranteed of going to heaven? like paul, who stated that even though he knew of nothing against himself, that he could not pronounce himself as being justified, and that God is the ONLY knower of the human heart and will make all things known on that day(judgement)?

Yes, I know my scriptures, whether it be a Catholic, KJV, NIV or most any other widely accepted morph of the Book with only 66 books.

Try me. Are you infallible? If you claim that the Holy Spirit leads you in your personal interpretation of scriputre, and the Holy Spirit is God and makes no mistakes, then you claim infalliblity. What is yor authority for this claimed infallibility?



peace, papist

[broach972]

Do you realize that when you appeal to authority, and the person that you're debating doesn't recognize the authority you're appealing to, that you've made no argument better than,

"because I said so!"

Do you think you've won if your opponent stops talking?  There's nothing there to argue with...they're still waiting for your argument!  So if you want "real debate" you're going to have to forgo that tactic and prove things based on logic and history.  Appeals to authority aren't effectual in this milieu.

Oh, I would say that Papist1 has done a great job of appealing to logic and history so far...

[broach972]

I am yawwnnnning at all of the elementary childhood assaults on Catholicism in here. Can anyone around here please offer up some actual topics that don't have anything to do with people sinning in the middle ages? I mean really, can't we have some healthy civil discourse on matters of actual catholic doctrine? I am not speaking of Catholic's worshipping saints etc.... as this is false and everyone knows the church has never taught this or most other popular detractive topics circling the protestant churches. I too was once an anti catholic protestant, and after a deep study of church history in the first four centuries I had no other choice but to come home.

I look forward to real discussion.

peace, papist

Yea, I have been looking for this myself for quite some time...

great observation by the way....

[broach972]

Not really... I'm just really tired of discussing Catholicism.  It seems to be all you Catholics want to talk about. 

Well, I must ask then....why are in the Catholic forum if you feel this way to begin with?...

Besides, considering the constant attacks and misinformation, we don't have much of a choice...someone needs to set the record straight....

and Desertknight and Papist1 are doing a very fine job....

[Giver]

Not really... I'm just really tired of discussing Catholicism.  It seems to be all you Catholics want to talk about. 

I am yawwnnnning at all of the elementary childhood assaults on Catholicism in here. Can anyone around here please offer up some actual topics that don't have anything to do with people sinning in the middle ages? I mean really, can't we have some healthy civil discourse on matters of actual catholic doctrine? I am not speaking of Catholic's worshipping saints etc.... as this is false and everyone knows the church has never taught this or most other popular detractive topics circling the protestant churches. I too was once an anti catholic protestant, and after a deep study of church history in the first four centuries I had no other choice but to come home.

I look forward to real discussion.

peace, papist

Personally I believe the theology of the Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox Church to be the closest to what Jesus taught. 

That is a big problem though.  Close is not good enough. 

No Christian Church is teaching the whole Word of God, in my opinion.

Take the Catholic Church first.  Jesus told us: (Matthew 5:39) "You have learnt how it was said: 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.

[Upright]

I have yet to find one Catholic that can defend their own Bible without resulting to the writings, or dogmas of some Pope.

In Jesus' name- larry2

Well, you've just found one in Upright. To put the
record straight, Catholics defend Catholic dogmas
using the Bible and not defending the Bible using
dogmas. The Bible as word of God defends itself.

Let's look at your other question: Who was Jesus' angel?
The Bible told us that "angels came and ministered to him"
(Matt 4:11). Elsewhere, Jesus talked about asking the Father
to send Him a legion of angels (Matt 26:53). In none of
these passages did Jesus give any indication that He had
a (guardian) angel like we humans have (Matt 18:10).

Jesus as God created the angels. What does He need the
angels for besides being His messengers?

What other Catholic doctrine makes you scratch your
Head, brother?

God bless us all.

[Elaine]

Do you realize that when you appeal to authority, and the person that you're debating doesn't recognize the authority you're appealing to, that you've made no argument better than,

"because I said so!"

Do you think you've won if your opponent stops talking?  There's nothing there to argue with...they're still waiting for your argument!  So if you want "real debate" you're going to have to forgo that tactic and prove things based on logic and history.  Appeals to authority aren't effectual in this milieu.

That was so well said that it's almost like you quoted it from a book...awesome. :)

[Elaine]

Upright,

What's this that there is a Catholic Bible and it has more books in it?
Could you tell me what they are or where they are?  I'd like to go to a book store and read them - so want to be able to locate them fast. And does it say on the cover "Catholic Bible"?

Thanks,
:)Elaine

[Upright]

Hi Elaine,

Guess you aren't quoting something I said? Yes, there's a
Catholic Bible - complete Bible if you like. It contains all the books
the Protestant reformers expunged after the reformation. In it
you'll find the following sacred books (OT Apocrypha): Esdras (1 & 2),
Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus),
Baruch, Maccabees (1 & 2), etc.

If you need a Catholic Bible, simply ask for a Catholic Bible in any
bookstore. Most of them are marked "Catholic Edition," but you
can check for the books I mentioned above to be sure.

God bless us all.

[zoonance]

Hi Elaine,

Guess you aren't quoting something I said? Yes, there's a
Catholic Bible - complete Bible if you like. It contains all the books
the Protestant reformers expunged after the reformation. In it
you'll find the following sacred books (OT Apocrypha): Esdras (1 & 2),
Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus),
Baruch, Maccabees (1 & 2), etc.

If you need a Catholic Bible, simply ask for a Catholic Bible in any
bookstore. Most of them are marked "Catholic Edition," but you
can check for the books I mentioned above to be sure.

God bless us all.

It would be interesting if you would share some key doctrines that these expunged books add to the faith that are lacking from the others.  I am sure there is history and so forth.

[Upright]

I did not say that  the expunged books "add (any doctrines)
to the faith that are lacking from the others"  nor subtracted
anything from the others. Why ask me when you have your
"history and so forth" to refer to?

God bless us all.

   

[zoonance]

I did not say that  the expunged books "add (any doctrines)
to the faith that are lacking from the others"  nor subtracted
anything from the others. Why ask me when you have your
"history and so forth" to refer to?

God bless us all.

   

You were clearly suggesting that the full canon added to the christian faith.  I really was wondering how.  So much for sharing.

[Elaine]

Hi Elaine,

Guess you aren't quoting something I said? Yes, there's a
Catholic Bible - complete Bible if you like. It contains all the books
the Protestant reformers expunged after the reformation. In it
you'll find the following sacred books (OT Apocrypha): Esdras (1 & 2),
Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus),
Baruch, Maccabees (1 & 2), etc.

If you need a Catholic Bible, simply ask for a Catholic Bible in any
bookstore. Most of them are marked "Catholic Edition," but you
can check for the books I mentioned above to be sure.

God bless us all.

Wait a minute ---the Bibles we are reading originally had more books ---but the Protestants took them out?
Am I understanding you correctly?   Wild -no one ever told me that ever.   Well, I for one want to read them!

Do you know why they were taken out? Fascinating.   Remember I'm new at this ---not stupid -it's just all so new this Christian history of who wrote what and when and translations and Greek this and that ---very involved stuff ---and I see there are so many different opinions and interpretations.
All very interesting ---some people believe there is an eternal -Hell and then some don't!!

Thanks

[zoonance]

I did not say that  the expunged books "add (any doctrines)
to the faith that are lacking from the others"  nor subtracted
anything from the others. Why ask me when you have your
"history and so forth" to refer to?

God bless us all.

   

I didn't say you did anything.  Nor did I say you didn't anything.  I did ask a question.   You might try reading.  You weren't even listening.  Not much of a conversation. 


Could it be that rhe chip on your shoulder must be so big as to be a log in the eye? 

[Upright]

Elaine:

Yes the Protestants removed some books from the "original" Bible.

Why? I would rather a Protestant answer the question.


zoonance:

I only said in my reply to Elaine that some books were removed from
the "original" Bible by the Protestant reformers, which is true. When
I talked about a "complete Catholic Bible," I did not mean in any way
that "the full canon (whichever canon you were referring to) added
to the Christian faith." By "complete," I meant that the expunged
books should be in the Catholic Bible, I wasn't referring to any
"doctrines" or "canon." Please re-read my post to Elaine.

Do I avoid conversation? Why? At all. Only unnecessary ones.
Are we not conversing now?

God bless us all.

[Elaine]

Well, bingo, I got a used Catholic Edition Bible yesterday for only $7 ---I don't even know what the word "canon" means. I'll look it up.
Then alot of you guys use words like preterist? Calvinist? Universalist? -I don't know all these religious words.

I actually had a little private magical moment looking at 3 shelves of Bibles -some used were still $30.   I won't get into the details.   But what was it - was I listening to my GA--- guardian angel or was it the urgings of the Holy Spirit - I never know. I just flow with it and trust it and it always stirs me right. It made me smile. I love 'focusing on the things above' alot  Col 3:2- I think that is why I get so much guidance -because I am open to it ---sorry I digressed.
Or because I can be an idiot and need it...:)

[papist1]

I did not say that  the expunged books "add (any doctrines)
to the faith that are lacking from the others"  nor subtracted
anything from the others. Why ask me when you have your
"history and so forth" to refer to?

God bless us all.

   

You were clearly suggesting that the full canon added to the christian faith.  I really was wondering how.  So much for sharing.

try reading them, and then let's have a discussion on the matter.

Why don't you start with the book of Wisdom, as that seems to be apropriate to make up where you are seemingly lacking.
peace, papist

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Hi Elaine,

Guess you aren't quoting something I said? Yes, there's a
Catholic Bible - complete Bible if you like. It contains all the books
the Protestant reformers expunged after the reformation. In it
you'll find the following sacred books (OT Apocrypha): Esdras (1 & 2),
Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus),
Baruch, Maccabees (1 & 2), etc.

If you need a Catholic Bible, simply ask for a Catholic Bible in any
bookstore. Most of them are marked "Catholic Edition," but you
can check for the books I mentioned above to be sure.

God bless us all.

It would be interesting if you would share some key doctrines that these expunged books add to the faith that are lacking from the others.  I am sure there is history and so forth.

An example of Prayer for the Dead is explicitly stated in 2nd Macabbees, zoo.

[papist1]

Guess you aren't quoting something I said? Yes, there's a
Catholic Bible - complete Bible if you like. It contains all the books
the Protestant reformers expunged after the reformation. In it
you'll find the following sacred books (OT Apocrypha): Esdras (1 & 2),
Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus),
Baruch, Maccabees (1 & 2), etc.

If you need a Catholic Bible, simply ask for a Catholic Bible in any
bookstore. Most of them are marked "Catholic Edition," but you
can check for the books I mentioned above to be sure.

God bless us all.

It would be interesting if you would share some key doctrines that these expunged books add to the faith that are lacking from the others.  I am sure there is history and so forth.

An example of Prayer for the Dead is explicitly stated in 2nd Macabbees, zoo.

Yes, which was the norm for everyone in the church previous to the 16th century. Go read the walls of the catacombs and tell me it was not the norm in the first century forward.

This is certainly not adding anything, but on the contrary, by the man Luther taking these books out of the canon, you are left with less than what Christ intended for His church. The dead in Christ are more alive than you and I.

peace, papist

[Elaine]

Papist ---the proplem with the quoting boxes is you only put a / before the word "quote" at the end. The beginning word "quote" has no /.

Looks like you put a slash / in front of both times you typed " quote".  It's an easy fix...

If you press modify ---you can fix your post right up the way you want it with the quotes in boxes.

:) Hope this helps.
Elaine

[Cally]

Hi Elaine,

Guess you aren't quoting something I said? Yes, there's a
Catholic Bible - complete Bible if you like. It contains all the books
the Protestant reformers expunged after the reformation. In it
you'll find the following sacred books (OT Apocrypha): Esdras (1 & 2),
Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus),
Baruch, Maccabees (1 & 2), etc.

If you need a Catholic Bible, simply ask for a Catholic Bible in any
bookstore. Most of them are marked "Catholic Edition," but you
can check for the books I mentioned above to be sure.

God bless us all.

Wait a minute ---the Bibles we are reading originally had more books ---but the Protestants took them out?
Am I understanding you correctly?   Wild -no one ever told me that ever.   Well, I for one want to read them!

Do you know why they were taken out? Fascinating.   Remember I'm new at this ---not stupid -it's just all so new this Christian history of who wrote what and when and translations and Greek this and that ---very involved stuff ---and I see there are so many different opinions and interpretations.
All very interesting ---some people believe there is an eternal -Hell and then some don't!!

Thanks

Before you get too excited about this larger Bible, keep in mind that there were so many accounts of the gospels alone beyond the four you're used to. Somehow I want to say 70+ different accounts of the Gospel that people sifted through and more that were all-out crazy, as I understand it.

I don't know too much about it, but essentially if you wanted to read everything that people claimed came from God and belonged in the Bible back then, you'd have a very large and convoluted book that probably couldn't fit in a house. 

[zoonance]

Hi Elaine,

Guess you aren't quoting something I said? Yes, there's a
Catholic Bible - complete Bible if you like. It contains all the books
the Protestant reformers expunged after the reformation. In it
you'll find the following sacred books (OT Apocrypha): Esdras (1 & 2),
Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus),
Baruch, Maccabees (1 & 2), etc.

If you need a Catholic Bible, simply ask for a Catholic Bible in any
bookstore. Most of them are marked "Catholic Edition," but you
can check for the books I mentioned above to be sure.

God bless us all.

It would be interesting if you would share some key doctrines that these expunged books add to the faith that are lacking from the others.  I am sure there is history and so forth.

An example of Prayer for the Dead is explicitly stated in 2nd Macabbees, zoo.

thanks. I appreciate an answer to my question.  The other response: "Read it for thyself heathen" suggests there wasn't much to share.

[zoonance]

Guess you aren't quoting something I said? Yes, there's a
Catholic Bible - complete Bible if you like. It contains all the books
the Protestant reformers expunged after the reformation. In it
you'll find the following sacred books (OT Apocrypha): Esdras (1 & 2),
Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus),
Baruch, Maccabees (1 & 2), etc.

If you need a Catholic Bible, simply ask for a Catholic Bible in any
bookstore. Most of them are marked "Catholic Edition," but you
can check for the books I mentioned above to be sure.

God bless us all.

It would be interesting if you would share some key doctrines that these expunged books add to the faith that are lacking from the others.  I am sure there is history and so forth.

An example of Prayer for the Dead is explicitly stated in 2nd Macabbees, zoo.

Yes, which was the norm for everyone in the church previous to the 16th century. Go read the walls of the catacombs and tell me it was not the norm in the first century forward.

This is certainly not adding anything, but on the contrary, by the man Luther taking these books out of the canon, you are left with less than what Christ intended for His church. The dead in Christ are more alive than you and I.

peace, papist

Thanks.  I do appreciate your comments.  I can see how some more stuff could be gleaned or at least extrapolated as a result of further writings.  The extra books still would not answer the "sola scriptura" issue - unless something in them suggests otherwise.  Extra Catholic Bible doctrines would thus still qualify as extrabiblical teachings.

[papist1]

Guess you aren't quoting something I said? Yes, there's a
Catholic Bible - complete Bible if you like. It contains all the books
the Protestant reformers expunged after the reformation. In it
you'll find the following sacred books (OT Apocrypha): Esdras (1 & 2),
Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus),
Baruch, Maccabees (1 & 2), etc.

If you need a Catholic Bible, simply ask for a Catholic Bible in any
bookstore. Most of them are marked "Catholic Edition," but you
can check for the books I mentioned above to be sure.

God bless us all.

It would be interesting if you would share some key doctrines that these expunged books add to the faith that are lacking from the others.  I am sure there is history and so forth.

An example of Prayer for the Dead is explicitly stated in 2nd Macabbees, zoo.

Yes, which was the norm for everyone in the church previous to the 16th century. Go read the walls of the catacombs and tell me it was not the norm in the first century forward.

This is certainly not adding anything, but on the contrary, by the man Luther taking these books out of the canon, you are left with less than what Christ intended for His church. The dead in Christ are more alive than you and I.

peace, papist

Thanks.  I do appreciate your comments.  I can see how some more stuff could be gleaned or at least extrapolated as a result of further writings.  The extra books still would not answer the "sola scriptura" issue - unless something in them suggests otherwise.  Extra Catholic Bible doctrines would thus still qualify as extrabiblical teachings.

That is less than true.

Sola scriptura is not taught in scripture, and was never preached or taught by anyone previous to luther in the 16th century.

All Bibles had 73 books previous to the 16th century, therefore you have no point of reference in you statement.  If your churches teachings do not reflect what the entire church believed in the first 1600 years, then you are being taught error.

The truth has been the truth since the first century, unchanged.

peace, papist

[zoonance]

Guess you aren't quoting something I said? Yes, there's a
Catholic Bible - complete Bible if you like. It contains all the books
the Protestant reformers expunged after the reformation. In it
you'll find the following sacred books (OT Apocrypha): Esdras (1 & 2),
Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus),
Baruch, Maccabees (1 & 2), etc.

If you need a Catholic Bible, simply ask for a Catholic Bible in any
bookstore. Most of them are marked "Catholic Edition," but you
can check for the books I mentioned above to be sure.

God bless us all.

It would be interesting if you would share some key doctrines that these expunged books add to the faith that are lacking from the others.  I am sure there is history and so forth.

An example of Prayer for the Dead is explicitly stated in 2nd Macabbees, zoo.

Yes, which was the norm for everyone in the church previous to the 16th century. Go read the walls of the catacombs and tell me it was not the norm in the first century forward.

This is certainly not adding anything, but on the contrary, by the man Luther taking these books out of the canon, you are left with less than what Christ intended for His church. The dead in Christ are more alive than you and I.

peace, papist

Thanks.  I do appreciate your comments.  I can see how some more stuff could be gleaned or at least extrapolated as a result of further writings.  The extra books still would not answer the "sola scriptura" issue - unless something in them suggests otherwise.  Extra Catholic Bible doctrines would thus still qualify as extrabiblical teachings.

That is less than true.

Sola scriptura is not taught in scripture, and was never preached or taught by anyone previous to luther in the 16th century.

All Bibles had 73 books previous to the 16th century, therefore you have no point of reference in you statement.  If your churches teachings do not reflect what the entire church believed in the first 1600 years, then you are being taught error.

The truth has been the truth since the first century, unchanged.

peace, papist

what did I say that wasn't true?

[Magnificat]

Not really... I'm just really tired of discussing Catholicism.  It seems to be all you Catholics want to talk about. 

I think that is because if we are to discuss faith and salvation the Catholic belief on this issues will always come to to the fore. It is not so much as discussing Catholicism but rather discussing what is true and counterfeit faith.