Why Not Protestantism?

[desertknight]

The adjective became the title, but the Church didn't change.  Jesus started one Church.

Thats true "the adjective became the title" after 318 successors formulated the Catholic Church at the Council of Nicaea from the original catholic Church.

Where are you getting that?  I have a degree in history from a state, non-Catholic, university and I would have been failed for that assertion in West Hist. 101.  What are you talking about?  The Catholic Church had already had dozens of chief Bishops, it's priests, it's sacraments, etc., long before Nicaea.  It had already had a long history of over 300 years including ample evidence from Popes, Bishops, priests, and fathers of the Church who were involved in doctrinal questions and other issues long before Nicaea.

Please post some sort of credible evidence, a site, a credible book or commentary by a respected historian, of the Catholic Church being created at the Council of Nicaea.  How was that possible when Pope Sylvester I was already very much alive before the council was ever convened?   Let alone, Clement I who's epistle settled and re-instated deposed clergy in Corinth around AD 100, or Pius I who had to deal with the heresies of Valentinus, Cerdon and Marcion in AD150, or Victor I who changed the language of the western churches from Greek to Latin in AD 190, all generations or centuries before Nicaea.

To prove your point, not only will you have to site some credible evidence, but you will have to make disappear some centuries of ample evidence to the contrary.

Your earlier post is not exactly how we Catholics would put it, but is substantially correct, including this...

The "pope", or whatever his "official" title is, is infallible when discussing doctrine right? What if the "pope" was a closest porn addict who got off by watching explicit online videos at night? Would his infallibility still be valid?

Yes, his infallibility is linked to the infallibility of the whole Church on matters of faith and morals and is based on Christ's promise to his Church that it would not stray from truth, (pillar of fire, pillar of truth).  Infallibility has nothing at all to to with the personal saintliness or sinfulness of the pope, who is just a man, and is a grave sinner, just like the rest of us.  

[chestertonrules]

The adjective became the title, but the Church didn't change.  Jesus started one Church.

Thats true "the adjective became the title" after 318 successors formulated the Catholic Church at the Council of Nicaea from the original catholic Church.

All I'm saying is that the formation of the Catholic Church violates the way the successors of God's True catholic Church operated. A handful of successors didn't just meet up and make decisions without the collective. That would lead to utter chaos.

Chaos is what you find outside the Church.

Jesus did not stutter:

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

Matthew 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Matthew 16
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

[mclees8]

Romans 10:17..."Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

For the multitudes who believes that His word is a "dead letter" and follow the "tradition" I will quote: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL be saved. Therefore, the question must be asked, "How then shall they "CALL' upon him whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe on him they have not HEARD?" and how shall they believe without a PREACHER?"

God reaches men today in the same way He has always reached them. By the preaching of the Word.....Do all men preach "His Word"?....NO! Therefore, "tradition" enters man's thought process.

When the rational, objective discernment of God's Word is distorted by man's tradition of "think so," we have the belief in "errantcy of Scripture."
Those who believe that God does not have the forbearance to perserve His spoken word, through the written word (by inspired writers) must rely on the "teachings of men," Therefore, we find the "revelatory church" with the Papacy and tolerance. The city of God, Indulgences, Purgatory, infant baptism, etc.

It has been said, "the Reformation owed its being to the direct contact of the mind with Scriptures, and it resulted in the emancipation of the human mind from priestly and papal authority." Here, I must ask the question: In their struggle to loose their bonds from the Roman church have the Reformers strayed from "apostolic doctrine" and followed the "faith only" teachings of Luther, Calvin, Knox, Westley and a host of lessor lights?

"Now I beseech you brethren, by the name of Jesus Christ, that you all SPEAK the same thing, and that there be no DIVISION among you; but you be perfectly joined together in the same MIND and in the same judgment" (1 Cor, 1:10).  Is this the inspired word of God or the tradition of Paul? I believe this is the meaning of His juxtaposition in Matthew 25:31-33, "Judgment of the nations."

Verse 15 says "And how can people preach unless they are sent?

[chestertonrules]

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Who was Jesus talking to?

Is it not funny that you would say where in scripture when you are of those who say not scripture alone.
god bless

Speaking as a Catholic, we believe that the bible is the word of God.  It is our book, after all!



[/quote]

[winsome]

Romans 10:17..."Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

For the multitudes who believes that His word is a "dead letter" and follow the "tradition" I will quote: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL be saved. Therefore, the question must be asked, "How then shall they "CALL' upon him whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe on him they have not HEARD?" and how shall they believe without a PREACHER?"

God reaches men today in the same way He has always reached them. By the preaching of the Word.....Do all men preach "His Word"?....NO! Therefore, "tradition" enters man's thought process.

When the rational, objective discernment of God's Word is distorted by man's tradition of "think so," we have the belief in "errantcy of Scripture."
Those who believe that God does not have the forbearance to perserve His spoken word, through the written word (by inspired writers) must rely on the "teachings of men," Therefore, we find the "revelatory church" with the Papacy and tolerance. The city of God, Indulgences, Purgatory, infant baptism, etc.

It has been said, "the Reformation owed its being to the direct contact of the mind with Scriptures, and it resulted in the emancipation of the human mind from priestly and papal authority." Here, I must ask the question: In their struggle to loose their bonds from the Roman church have the Reformers strayed from "apostolic doctrine" and followed the "faith only" teachings of Luther, Calvin, Knox, Westley and a host of lessor lights?

"Now I beseech you brethren, by the name of Jesus Christ, that you all SPEAK the same thing, and that there be no DIVISION among you; but you be perfectly joined together in the same MIND and in the same judgment" (1 Cor, 1:10).  Is this the inspired word of God or the tradition of Paul? I believe this is the meaning of His juxtaposition in Matthew 25:31-33, "Judgment of the nations."

Verse 15 says "And how can people preach unless they are sent?

[mclees8]

What constitutes being commissioned ? Are not all commissioned who love Him. Were there not 120 in the upper room when the Holy Spirit came. were there not seventy sent out to preach.

Are all who are ordained truly called? Who was commissioned ?

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Is it not funny that you would say where in scripture when you are of those who say not scripture alone.
god bless




Winsome
Witnessing is not thesame as teaching with authority.

Peter says "Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope" but that does not mean we have authority to define doctrine.

Defining what doctrine?  Any specific ones? Who are the called? Who are the sent?
What makes them that authority? For example by what authority did John baptize.
From where did that authority come?

In the body of Christ there a may certain gifts. If one has as gift is he not called to use it for the Lords glory. I am not talking of those who are phonies who use gifts for gain but those who do the will of the Father.


Gos bless.

[winsome]

Winsome
Witnessing is not thesame as teaching with authority.

Peter says "Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope" but that does not mean we have authority to define doctrine.

Defining what doctrine?  Any specific ones? Who are the called? Who are the sent?
What makes them that authority? For example by what authority did John baptize.
From where did that authority come?

In the body of Christ there a may certain gifts. If one has as gift is he not called to use it for the Lords glory. I am not talking of those who are phonies who use gifts for gain but those who do the will of the Father.


Gos bless.

Commissioning is done for God's service.

We are commissioned in different ways, and we have specific authority when commissioned by those that have the authority to give it.

Authority is given to the Church and the Church passes on that authority as it sees fit.

It is not up to us to usurp authority by claiming what we do not have.

Scripture gives us some examples.

Jesus sent the apostles and gave them authority to forgive sins "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.

[mclees8]

Winsome
Witnessing is not thesame as teaching with authority.

Peter says "Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope" but that does not mean we have authority to define doctrine.

Defining what doctrine?  Any specific ones? Who are the called? Who are the sent?
What makes them that authority? For example by what authority did John baptize.
From where did that authority come?

In the body of Christ there a may certain gifts. If one has as gift is he not called to use it for the Lords glory. I am not talking of those who are phonies who use gifts for gain but those who do the will of the Father.


Gos bless.

Commissioning is done for God's service.

We are commissioned in different ways, and we have specific authority when commissioned by those that have the authority to give it.

Authority is given to the Church and the Church passes on that authority as it sees fit.

It is not up to us to usurp authority by claiming what we do not have.

Scripture gives us some examples.

Jesus sent the apostles and gave them authority to forgive sins "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.

[winsome]

Winsome
Witnessing is not thesame as teaching with authority.

Peter says "Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope" but that does not mean we have authority to define doctrine.

Defining what doctrine?  Any specific ones? Who are the called? Who are the sent?
What makes them that authority? For example by what authority did John baptize.
From where did that authority come?

In the body of Christ there a may certain gifts. If one has as gift is he not called to use it for the Lords glory. I am not talking of those who are phonies who use gifts for gain but those who do the will of the Father.


Gos bless.

Commissioning is done for God's service.

We are commissioned in different ways, and we have specific authority when commissioned by those that have the authority to give it.

Authority is given to the Church and the Church passes on that authority as it sees fit.

It is not up to us to usurp authority by claiming what we do not have.

Scripture gives us some examples.

Jesus sent the apostles and gave them authority to forgive sins "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.

[winsome]

Again i ask by who's authority did John Baptize?

Even Jesus didn't answer that one. Do you think I am better than Jesus? 

However,
John was sent by God with a mission to prepare the way for Jesus

"the reason why I came baptizing with water was that he might be made known to Israel.

[mclees8]

Winsome
Witnessing is not thesame as teaching with authority.

Peter says "Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope" but that does not mean we have authority to define doctrine.

Defining what doctrine?  Any specific ones? Who are the called? Who are the sent?
What makes them that authority? For example by what authority did John baptize.
From where did that authority come?

In the body of Christ there a may certain gifts. If one has as gift is he not called to use it for the Lords glory. I am not talking of those who are phonies who use gifts for gain but those who do the will of the Father.


Gos bless.

Commissioning is done for God's service.

We are commissioned in different ways, and we have specific authority when commissioned by those that have the authority to give it.

Authority is given to the Church and the Church passes on that authority as it sees fit.

It is not up to us to usurp authority by claiming what we do not have.

Scripture gives us some examples.

Jesus sent the apostles and gave them authority to forgive sins "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.

[mclees8]

Again i ask by who's authority did John Baptize?

Even Jesus didn't answer that one. Do you think I am better than Jesus? 

However,
John was sent by God with a mission to prepare the way for Jesus

"the reason why I came baptizing with water was that he might be made known to Israel.

[chestertonrules]

Well there you have Winsome. Let God do what he wants and choose who he wants to do it.

Good idea!

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Matthew 16
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

1 John 4
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

[mclees8]

Well there you have Winsome. Let God do what he wants and choose who he wants to do it.

Good idea!

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Matthew 16
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

1 John 4
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

I don't believe any of us have a problem with those scripture. We know the apostles were sent. do you know the drift of our conversation aside from that?

[winsome]

Well there you have Winsome. Let God do what he wants and choose who he wants to do it.

Good idea!

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Matthew 16
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

1 John 4
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

I don't believe any of us have a problem with those scripture. We know the apostles were sent. do you know the drift of our conversation aside from that?

I'll summarise.

I believe Jesus gave authority to the Church and the Church passes on that authority as it sees fit.

mclees thinks he can usurp authority by claiming what he is not given. But that's the standard protestant approach to authority.

[chestertonrules]

Well there you have Winsome. Let God do what he wants and choose who he wants to do it.

Good idea!

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Matthew 16
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

1 John 4
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

I don't believe any of us have a problem with those scripture. We know the apostles were sent. do you know the drift of our conversation aside from that?

You reject those sent by Jesus, so you have a problem with these verses.

When the apostles appointed successors they were following Jesus.  Jesus gave the apostles his authority, and they in turn passed it on to their successors.

[mclees8]

Well there you have Winsome. Let God do what he wants and choose who he wants to do it.

Good idea!

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Matthew 16
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

1 John 4
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

I don't believe any of us have a problem with those scripture. We know the apostles were sent. do you know the drift of our conversation aside from that?

I'll summarise.

I believe Jesus gave authority to the Church and the Church passes on that authority as it sees fit.

mclees thinks he can usurp authority by claiming what he is not given. But that's the standard protestant approach to authority.

How would you know winsome? Do you speak for God. It would seem you are not only a legalist but a judgementalist also. besides that I never claimed to be authority anyway, and if I was I pray I would not make some big show of it. If the Lord use me in anyway let me his servant. You said John did not get his authority from men,but  his authority from God. How is it then you are a judge of me or anyone.

[mclees8]

Well there you have Winsome. Let God do what he wants and choose who he wants to do it.

Good idea!

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Matthew 16
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

1 John 4
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

I don't believe any of us have a problem with those scripture. We know the apostles were sent. do you know the drift of our conversation aside from that?

You reject those sent by Jesus, so you have a problem with these verses.

When the apostles appointed successors they were following Jesus.  Jesus gave the apostles his authority, and they in turn passed it on to their successors.

When did i say I rejected anyone. Obey the bishops and Obey the pope. But if any be truly sent let him be led of the spirit.

God bless