Porn

[AvrilNYC]

phoebe,

I agree, with everything you posted. I'm guilty of trying to be "funny" with a real issue. I apologize for that. But let me pose a real issue I have come across with, with friends. What if the husband has much stronger sexual drive than the wife and the wife refuses to do it more than, lets say, twice a month? You may know this but many men need some "release" more than twice a month

I have a dear friend who's getting divorced as we speak because everytime his wife got ticked at him she will refuse to have sex. Her complain was that he was "working too much" Of course she was more than happy to spend his money in luxury items. Anyway, sometimes she will refuse  to have sex with him, as a "punishment for the long hours he worked" for weeks straight. In the end he committed actual adultery and now they are divorcing.

[phoebe]

phoebe,

I agree, with everything you posted. I'm guilty of trying to be "funny" with a real issue. I apologize for that. But let me pose a real issue I have come across with, with friends. What if the husband has much stronger sexual drive than the wife and the wife refuses to do it more than, lets say, twice a month? You may know this but many men need some "release" more than twice a month

I have a dear friend who's getting divorced as we speak because everytime his wife got ticked at him she will refuse to have sex. Her complain was that he was "working too much" Of course she was more than happy to spend his money in luxury items. Anyway, sometimes she will refuse  to have sex with him, as a "punishment for the long hours he worked" for weeks straight. In the end he committed actual adultery and now they are divorcing.

That isn't an excuse, no matter how much one would like for it to be.

In the example you gave, both parties are behaving selfishly.  One can't claim  "But she..."  or "But he..."  (There are deeper issues with them than sex.)  He is solely responsible for his infidelity.  He made a covenant to be faithful, and he broke it.  The covenant did not give him any disclaimers for infidelity.  If he's really your "dear friend": 1) you should not be discussing/listening to this with him, and 2) you would have pointed this out to him already rather than giving him your sympathizing shoulder.  By doing so you have become a willing participant.  He's a whiner with a victim mentality (yes, I got all that with your post), and you'd best place some distance between the two of you or you will find yourself in the middle of a messy divorce.

[AvrilNYC]

I did tell him that adultery is always wrong but at this point they are divorcing. I actually did not give him a "sympathizing shoulder". What I did try to do is focus his attention on the impact of all this to their kids. The kids are the big victims here and both selfish grownups need to realize that.

I have never and would never commit adultery, even if my wife refuses to have "a physical relationship with me" not only because it's a sin (after all, we're all sinners) but also because I would never be able to look my beautiful daughters without being ashamed again

[chosenone]

I guess people are shaped by their experiences. I have never met or heard of anyone who was addicted to porn, but I know many whose lives were ruined by actual adultery.  

I'm honestly surprised that there are parents that are so negligent as to expose their kids to that stuff. That goes to a much more serious sin "if anyone causes one of the little ones to sin"

On the 2 forums that I go on there are loads of letters from women whose husbands are addicted to porn. Its so sad.

[chosenone]

phoebe,

I agree, with everything you posted. I'm guilty of trying to be "funny" with a real issue. I apologize for that. But let me pose a real issue I have come across with, with friends. What if the husband has much stronger sexual drive than the wife and the wife refuses to do it more than, lets say, twice a month? You may know this but many men need some "release" more than twice a month

I have a dear friend who's getting divorced as we speak because everytime his wife got ticked at him she will refuse to have sex. Her complain was that he was "working too much" Of course she was more than happy to spend his money in luxury items. Anyway, sometimes she will refuse  to have sex with him, as a "punishment for the long hours he worked" for weeks straight. In the end he committed actual adultery and now they are divorcing.

Firstly are you saying that men cant masturbate without looking at porn? I think you will find that they can.
Secondly that is no way for a wife to behave and she was wrong. However he was worng to have an affair as well. I cant understand women who use sex as a controlling issue.I hate that.I also cant understand why they would want to refuse a man who they are supposed to love. However to have an affair isnt the answer.

[AvrilNYC]

"However he was worng to have an affair as well"

Chosenone,

I completely agree. At this point my only concern is the welfare of their little ones who are just 6 and 10 years old. I'm trying to help my friend focus on that.

[phoebe]

I did tell him that adultery is always wrong but at this point they are divorcing. I actually did not give him a "sympathizing shoulder". What I did try to do is focus his attention on the impact of all this to their kids. The kids are the big victims here and both selfish grownups need to realize that.

I have never and would never commit adultery, even if my wife refuses to have "a physical relationship with me" not only because it's a sin (after all, we're all sinners) but also because I would never be able to look my beautiful daughters without being ashamed again

My suggestion, and it is only my suggestion, but it comes from 35 years of experience in this area, is that you take about 20 giant steps backwards from your friend and not listen to him nor give him advice re: his marriage troubles.  I don't get the impression that you understand your own role in this.  After the dust has settled, then it will be safe to resume your friendship.  He actually needs to be alone and lonely right now.  He needs to feel the consequences of his actions, and not just from his wife. 
 
He was wrong to have an affair.  Period.  No "as well"s.  No ifs, ands, or buts.  Just plain wrong. 

[AvrilNYC]

I always struggled with how to deal with people who commit adultery. My biggest challenge was (and is) my mother in law who, at the time I met my wife, was living with a married man (she was divorced after first committing adultery herself!!)

[phoebe]

I always struggled with how to deal with people who commit adultery. My biggest challenge was (and is) my mother in law who, at the time I met my wife, was living with a married man (she was divorced after first committing adultery herself!!)

Yes, brings it home, doesn't it?  It's a fine line to walk between unconditional love and a call to repentance.  Sometimes unconditional love prevails, sometimes tough love.  But always love.

The goal of distancing yourself from your friend is that he will turn to God.  I didn't make that very clear in my other posts to you.  You will offer human sympathy.  if he has no one left, he may (re)turn to God.  God will offer redemption.  Which is better?

(I don't remember if you mentioned that your friend was a follower of Christ or not... sorry...)

[AvrilNYC]

My friend is Indian (met through work)...so an argument about His will won't work :(

[phoebe]

My friend is Indian (met through work)...so an argument about His will won't work :(

Sad for that.  But I don't mean you make the argument for God.  You just sorta get out of God's way, and let God in.  Nothing verbal or confrontational.  A lone and lonely soul will look for a Higher Power, and if you have been a good example, he may look to yours.

He is Hindu?  I had a sweet and precious Hindu man in my grief support/recovery group who had lost his lovely and intelligent 24 year old daughter in a car accident.  We could freely speak about things of God with him, and he reciprocated.  The silent struggle came when we spoke of a Savior and Redeemer, but that did not keep us from gently speaking of Him, nonetheless.

Hindus religion allows, and often encourages, adultery (as well as incest), does it not?  So he sees nothing wrong in what he did.  If his wife is also Hindu, sex is used a tool, sometimes a weapon, to bring a husband to repentance or compliance.  It's a form of manipulation that they are allowed since the power and control of most things belongs to the husband.  They have a different culture, more like the culture of those in the early churches.  Hard for us to grasp.  Or maybe not. 

[chosenone]

I always struggled with how to deal with people who commit adultery. My biggest challenge was (and is) my mother in law who, at the time I met my wife, was living with a married man (she was divorced after first committing adultery herself!!)

Yes it is so hard. I have three sisters in law who committed adultery, I dont see any of them now. I loved all of them.
My dad had an affair for many years and I never spoke to him about it (it was all kept very quiet as I wasnt that old when it started) My ex husbands father did, my husbands ex wife did, I have friends whose spouses did and its all so very sad and tragic.
Some of these people were/are Christians also which seems to make it worse.
Yes it is forgiveable if the person truly repents, including saying sorry to the cheated on spouse, but I have never actually heard of that happening although I am sure it does happen as some marriages do survive.Few of the marriages in my family survived which isnt surprising as it is the worst betrayal that you can do to your spouse.

[DocLogic77]

I am a female, and just do not understand it. Why do men get involved with it, especially men that love Jesus? what is the pay off? Do you men think it is the woman's fault? is it? Do you feel bad when you look at it, in a spiritual sense?

You are asking personal questions to men (plural) as if we represent a singular experience when it comes to this sin.  That is the first problem with your series of questions... questions that come off like you are looking for a fight.

You admit you don't understand anyone's interest in pornography.  You won't understand no matter how many responses you get.

Pornography is sinful and can lead to further sin.   It is not the only sin; it is not the worst of sins; it is just sin like any other.  I believe you can read the first chapter of James and get the only answer that matters.  What else do you really need to know?

Your time might be better spent praying about the sins that so easily beset YOU.

Did I hit a sore spot or what? I have every right to ask these questions, and ed if you have a problem with it tough toenails.

Yes, I think you hit a sore spot.  I heard a stat from a promise keepers convention some years back that 80% of those men in attendence had looked at porn at least once in the last year.  I have no way of confirming that stat just what I was told so please take that with a grain of salt.  But, I would say it's a huge problem.

Porn for a man might be one of the hardest addictions to break.  But, the Bible is very clear on this matter.  We are not to have even the smallest amount of sexual impurity.  That is tough for a man to live up to.  What women don't always understand is the fact that many men are able to seperate sex and love in their minds.  Porn problems rarely has anything to do with the spouse.  Men make excuses, point fingers sometimes "you don't have sex with me enough" but this has nothing to do with you.  Men look at porn for many reasons, insecurity, boredom, wanting to change how they feel, escape, sexual arousal etc and so on.  I believe you can love the Lord and break down and look at porn.  With that said, it speaks about problems in his relationship with Christ rather than his relationship to you.  You can not internalize his sin...that would be the definition of co-dependence.  Instead provide an environment where he can be truthful with you.  He needs to be held accountable and who better to do that than his wife?  But, if you yell, scream, rant, hold grudges he will suffer silently and do this behind your back.  I suggest web blockers, an open and honest relationship, communication and your best attempt at understanding.  If he loves Jesus he is likely grieved by his behavior.

[DocLogic77]

I have said many times here that it is not an issue exclusive to men. 

The answer is the same:  Choose Jesus.  Choose Jesus today.  And then choose Jesus again tomorrow.  And choose Jesus again the day after that. 

Every time we look, we choose.

We don't need to talk about it.  We just need to stop doing it.  Make a conscious decision not to look anymore.  Just like alcohol, drugs, gambling, shopping, controlling.  It really is that simple.  Hard to do, but a simple formula.  Just stop.  No replacement needed like gum, or a patch, or a support group.  Just a simple commitment between you and the One Who died for you that you won't look anymore.

Please notice the use of my pronouns.  I understand the addiction of looking and all that goes with it.  I don't look anymore.

And that is WAY more than I ever wanted to say publicly.  No one in my family knows.  It began when my first husband introduced it to me with that "anything is OK behind closed doors if both of you agree with it", only my part was not my free will.  It took years and years to recognize it as an addiction that kept a wall between me and my God, and then to commit to a life of purity for Him.  (Doesn't mean one lives celibate.  I am married...)

We can blame the internet for easy availability, but no one makes us look.  That monkey belongs to the looker.

I can't totally agree with that.  If you are talking about a guy who slips up once or twice in his lifetime I would agree.  But, for some men/women porn is an addiction and needs to be addressed as such.  There are underlying issues with ANY addiction.  When men or women look at porn they are using it to change how they feel.  Some people eat to change how they feel.  They wear their shame for the whole world to see.  It's crippling.  Some people drink or drug to change how they feel.  These come from places the addict can rarely reach on their own.  Have I heard of people just stopping with prayer?  Absolutely.  But, I think there are just as many and probably more who suffer in silence from these crippling sins.  Part of the problem comes from shame in the Christian community.  Whether we want to admit it or not there is a tremendous amount of judgement that goes on in many churches.  People do not feel open to discuss their issues because it's not a safe place to do so.  So, I generally advocate a 12 step program for anyone with addiction issues along with help from a Christian sponsor.  Having a safe place to understand the source and to talk out issues is extremely helpful.  Having a program that helps a person restore relationship with their Savior and wife is essential.  I wish more churches would start these programs.  But, instead many of the addicts must go outside of the church for these kind of programs.

An alcoholic who merely stops drinking is just a dry drunk.  The underlying issues are still there.  Those HAVE to be addressed.  Those issues will crop up in other forms and hinder their walk with Christ.  While some people say just pray and stop...it's rarely that easy.  As a community when we suggest such we merely shame those suffering from these addictions.

I also want to clarify something for those of you who think I am making excuses for sin (there are always a few in every group I speak to on this subject)...I in no way condone sin or make excuses for it.  I merely understand that it's a more complex issue than some believe.  The sin is wrong and will bring the addict death...either spiritually, physically or both. 

[DocLogic77]

Speaking as a man who has been there, done that, and as one who really couldn't care less about any judgement by people here, allow me to try to help you understand a little more.

I am a female, and just do not understand it. Why do men get involved with it, especially men that love Jesus?

Most get started long before comming to know Christ. The mechanism of initial involvement is usually tied in to the developing of their interest in sex, usually between 11 and 13 although it's getting younger every year.

what is the pay off?

What is the pay off with an alcoholic drinking? It's about avoiding or escaping something painful that they don't want to deal with.

quote author=lightshineon link=topic=45007.msg795692#msg795692 date=1275156664]Do you men think it is the woman's fault? is it?

Many, when caught will try to say "well if she just put out more I wouldn't need porn" but even in the middle of saying it most men know, on some level that that is just a lame blameshift.  No no it's not her fault.

Do you feel bad when you look at it, in a spiritual sense?

Yes. Interestingly even men who aren't Christians(me included at the time) on some level feel that what they are doing is wrong. In some cases that's just because of the social stigma around masturbation, but since I was raised in a family where that was basically considered normal and fine, my sense that it was somehow wrong must have come from somewhere else.

is it a hard thing to get the images out of you mind when you pray?

Yes, absolutely.

Are you embarrassed to admit to porn use?

Yes, but's that's largely because, within the church, porn users are often considered to be one step away from being rapists or child molestors.

What does you wife feel, or would she feel if she found out?

Hurt and sad more that angry in my wife's case. Although my wife didn't feel this too much, most women blame themself on some level. They feel they aren't whatever enough for him.

have you overcame this, and how?

Overcome which, the porn use itself or my wife's feelings on it?  In terms of my wife's feelings I can only credit her ability to let God's love and understanding flow through her. Incredibly short (3 weeks) recovery time for her. In terms of overcomming the porn use, it's all about finding a group of guys that can help hold me accountable. People I can share anything with. Actually no that's not what it's all about. The real key is in comming to a true heat felt understanding of who I am in Christ. Funny how that's the key to a lot things ins't it.




[/quote]

Chaz you nailed it on the head.

[Norton]

From the little I know about psychology, it seems that some addictive practices and shame reinforce each other. For example, a person looks at porn and gets a temporary high. He feels shame for having done that, so he looks at some more porn to make himself feel better. A vicious cycle begins and he becomes a slave to his sin. I'm sure its much more complex than that, but you get the idea.

[DocLogic77]

From the little I know about psychology, it seems that some addictive practices and shame reinforce each other. For example, a person looks at porn and gets a temporary high. He feels shame for having done that, so he looks at some more porn to make himself feel better. A vicious cycle begins and he becomes a slave to his sin. I'm sure its much more complex than that, but you get the idea.

It's definitely alot more complex than that but it doesn't make your statement incorrect.  It's actually on the money.  Any addiction tends to be a vicious cycle of behavior-->High--->depression--->self loathing--->rinse lather repeat.  There is almost always deep seeded pain behind every addiction...not to mention the extremely poor coping mechanisms to deal with pain.  What an addiction program gives an addict is truth about self, teaches them to forgive and ask for forgiveness, then starts the process of rebuilding relationships with God, family and society.  It gives spiritual tools and insights.  I encourage those who are still suffering to seek help.

[JohnDB]

But what about "personal porn" where a man has to be away from his family for an extended time so the wife takes some pictures of herself in the nude and sends them to him?

(at a military base you hear everything)

Its his wife in those pictures...not a stranger. He knows her and she him. I dunno about that one being a sin.

[chosenone]

But what about "personal porn" where a man has to be away from his family for an extended time so the wife takes some pictures of herself in the nude and sends them to him?

(at a military base you hear everything)

Its his wife in those pictures...not a stranger. He knows her and she him. I dunno about that one being a sin.

Cant see that is wrong at all. They would need to be careful that no one else got hold of them.
A past friend of mine's husband took some pics of her naked, for himself he said, and then proceeded to put them on the internet  for all to see. He was also into a lot of porn. swingers sites etc. Needless to say they divorced soon after.

[DocLogic77]

But what about "personal porn" where a man has to be away from his family for an extended time so the wife takes some pictures of herself in the nude and sends them to him?

(at a military base you hear everything)

Its his wife in those pictures...not a stranger. He knows her and she him. I dunno about that one being a sin.

Great question.  I think each individual needs to be convinced of their own stance on this.  If you believe it's wrong/sin and you continue to do it...it's sin.  Do, I believe it's wrong?  No.  When you approach sexual behaviors with your spouse you must ask yourself if this hurts your partner.  If you wife is not comfortable with it...but you guilt her into it.  That is a problem.  If you both are on board and you use it for "release" when you are away from your wife I do not see sin in that.  Which brings up another point.  Some Christians believe "release" is wrong.  I would agree if you are relying on that and not directing that energy towards your wife.  But, if you are on a long trip taking some pics of your wife and doing what you need to do not to burn with lust....I don't see a problem with it.  Just one man's take.