What's So Great About Capitalism?

[susieface]

No, I do not think people will or would disburse of their funds more liberally if taxes were taken away.  People don't do enough now and we always want more.  We live in the best country there is, but we do not want to help it out financially.  But we will definitely take from it.  We are greedy!  If one has the attitude of "keeping my hard earned money" that person will do just that if allowed.  They will keep it for themselves.  God would still only get 10% if he's lucky and the poor would only be helped when asked.  Nothing would change.  I firmly believe the more you give, the more you receive in blessings.  But our faith must be lacking, we say we will do so much if we had more, but do we?  Or do we just buy more "stuff", bigger houses, better or 2nd car?

 What I do not like is how the welfare system works.  We pay people to live together without being married, because they will lose their AFDC or food stamps if they are married. It is easy to lie about a man living in the house. Social Security is almost just as bad.  It is so abused it is pathetic, but it is still needed. We just need to reevaluate the welfare system.  The ones who need it don't get it too easy because they do not know how to cheat the system like so many on it.  

Two of my children receive death benefits due to the death of their father(my first husband).  When I remarried I told the social security office we did not need the benefit anymore due to my husbands income.  You know what?  They treated me like I was neglecting my kids by not wanting this money each month.  I said I just wanted it to go to someone who probably needed it more.  I was told no and the checks are still coming.  I just dropped it because they made me feel weird, like I was withholding some need of my children.
Seems wrong to me.  I do not get it.  I never even asked for the benefits.
I do feel the USA does more for their citizens than anyone else.
I just have a real problem with the abusers.

susie

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Oct. 03 2002,6:05)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm not talking about "waiting for a check".  I am talking about people who are forced to take minimum wage jobs with no benefits to support a family.  I am talking about a job market that is so tight that people with advanced degrees are hired for secretarial jobs.  I am talking about every decent job that opens up finding thousands of applicants.  I am talking about company after company shutting down and people losing the jobs they have had for decades.  I am talking about some becoming so despondent over this they take their own lives.  I am talking about people working as hard as they possibly can and still coming up short.

And I am talking about people literally dying because they are too proud to go see a doctor when they cannot afford to pay.

This is the real world.  Stereotypes do occur occasionally, but they are the exceptions.[/quote]
Marc,
Many companies, small to medium businesses in particular cannot pay decent salaries or benefits because they are overtaxed. Taxes that are wasted on govt pork projects. Please don't say that if they didn't have to pay these taxes they would pocket the money themselves. I know alot of business owners who are Christians that don't think this way. In fact, many will tell you that if they could pay more, they could hire better talent. This is what they would use the money for. Recruiting good help.

[terry]

I noticed that Enron has been brought up a few times. Well, living in the heart of Enron country I thought I might say a few things. First, much of what went on over there didn't make the national news. For example, the day after all those people lost their jobs Houston and other local school districts announced that they were desperate for teachers and many of those guys could have jobs teaching. There weren't many takers. It seems they thought holding Jessie Jackson's hand while marching around DC was a better idea. This is what yall most likely saw on the news.

Second, these folks had choices in retirement plans. Many were greedy and chose what they thought was a promising stock. My neighbor on the other hand chose boring old bond funds and did just fine. He also was living way beneath his means and had six months of living expensed saved. He leisurely looked for a job, while his wife taught school. He will tell you that he found a good job as did most of the others. It doesn't pay 80k, but they're doing fine.

Corporate greed did devastate some people's lives, however, it is through personal responsibility and other decent corporations that these people are all back at work.
take care,
terry

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I get the idea that you have never thought about the origins of your own material blessings. Most likely, someone started a company, made the things that you bought, and eventually became wealthy off your purchases. Everything around you has come from capitolism, yet you would have every company in the US shut down from what I'm reading because you don't like to see people prosper. You would bite the very hand that feeds you. Somehow, you have this idea that the government is the only thing in this country that should make money. They will then decide how we all should live. Maybe when your through with getting us there, we'll just call it Mexico[/quote]

Actually, Terry, everything of value, material and otherwise, has come from God; there is nothing whatsoever that I have done to deserve any of it.

The wealthy (which would include almost everyone of us in this country) are not wealthy because they deserve it.  Material blessings are not evidence of God's favor.  We could just as easily be living in a cardboard box on a Venezuelan hillside.  

All of scripture tells us the danger in material wealth, and I think we need to remember that capitalism is no more Christian than any other system.  Let's face it, does a system based on each person striving to get the most for himself really fit with Christ's teachings?

Terry, please do not assume that you know my views well enough to determine my goals.  You know nothing whatsoever about me.  I have posted nothing to indicate I don't wish to see people prosper or that I would shut down every company.  If you can back up that statement, prove it.  Otherwise, you owe me an apology.

My only point, all along, has been that there can be political differences of opinion among Christians.  Assuming that you are willing to grant me Christian status, I believe this whole debate has proven that.  

As to welfare being a fornication subsidy--nonsense.  Welfare is a temporary aid to those families which simply do not have enough money to live.  If we were paying a fornication subsidy, we'd have to pay a whole lot more people than welfare touches.  And yes, we've got a HUGE problem with single parent families.  I will admit, no-fault divorce was the worst mistake the feminist movement made, and one that will haunt us for a long time.  

I'm sorry about your center's problems.  I assume some local group is trying to shut you down-I hope that does not prevent you from doing your work.

Quint, yes, my logic is flawed if I assume all government agencies to be efficient and successful in their mission, just as your logic is flawed if you assume all private companies to be efficient and successful to their mission.  You're right, we would be better off if the private sector were truly private.  But of course, the big guys never play with their own money.  

Spurly, if all our roadways were Oklahoma toll roads, our civilization would fall into ruins before Christmas!  Economies of scale are one of the greatest benefits of government-how would it work if we had to stop and pay a toll to get on our neighborhood street, then pay another toll to get onto the artery, then another for the crosstown expressway?  We'd never get anywhere!

Perhaps, rather than try to decide to get rid of one sector or another, we'd be better off finding ways for the public, private and religious sectors to solve the countries problems together.  It wouldn't be as exciting a debate, but it might be more profitable in the long run.

Kari.

[patriciaredstone]

I think this is a case of lost identity. In a world of philosophical, political and social ideas Christians have lost the Christological identity in living for Christ alone. We want to clarify Christ by attaching explanations to the cross ... "King of the (Your Political Party or Religious Idea Here)" in order to avoid discussion about it creating a very happy and content community of believers who are likeminded in all things. Unfortunately they also learn not to tolerate others who have, through Christ come to different ideas and solutions for the fallen world than those authorised by the group. Then those who find themselves "on the other side" but still within the group are caught between expressing a need for tolerance or just staying quiet or tucking our heads in the sand in order to keep the peace or avoid confrontation. It boils down to a lack of character on both sides. All too easily we confuse a fear of standing up for our beliefs, a tendency to be more influenced by the convictions of others than by our own -- or simply a lack of conviciton -- with the need that the strong and mature feel to give full weight to the arguments of the other side. It is a game of hide-and-seek. When the Satan wishes to play on our lack of character, he calls it tolerance, and when he wants to stifle our fist attempts to learn tolerance, he calls it lack of character. Our escape from this ridicuous game is Christ. Christ and NOTHING else ... no other players. That is where we become centered on the axis of the world and our reach is extended to all. Words like Democrat, Republican, Cabbalist ... all disentigrate in the excruciating light that makes concepts like tolerance unnecessary.

[janine]

The Potter author has the whole series either already written out (in longhand on legal pads?) or at least blocked out in her head.  Already.  The timing of movies is due to the $ signs blinding the movie-makers.

I do see a difference between how the search for & handling of POWER was dealt with, a fair difference, between the Harry Potter stories and, say, the Narnia or LOTR series.

But, ultimately, a story is a story.  What you do with it is up to you.

So Lewis, the atheist who talked himself into being a believer, got ahold of his friend Tolkein & converted him?  Was he a nominal Catholic before?  Or a "nothing", as Lewis was?

They both lamented the lack of spirituality in stories, and how the "best bits" were stunted and de-emphasized.  That's why they made up whole worlds in their writings, and that's why they cared so much about how right and wrong and good and evil were presented, I think; more than they might have without the God-influence.

See why I don't start threads very often?  I might kick off a firestorm.

[Abishai100]

Capitalism thrives on instincts about self-improvement, while other economic systems (i.e., socialism) thrive on instincts about group security.

Capitalism feels more complicated, since it must account for individual greed and the desire to free oneself from political authority once monetary prosperity has been achieved.

Some critics of capitalist USA who believe that libertine economics is dangerous to moral values engage in acts of anti-American infrastructure destabilization (i.e., airplane hijacking), seeking to deliver the message that Wall Street greed must be subverted with acts of fire and brimstone.

Perhaps capitalism creates a proverbial 'darkside' in the human soul, since it compels people to evaluate the boundaries of self-gain and greed.

I was thinking the other day that Americans are fascinated by cryptic mobility fantasies.  For example, fairy tales about mermaids (half-human, half-fish creatures that can live and move under-water) abound in the USA and catalyze the marketing of various urban legends about terrestrial conquest.  Maybe this is why the Taliban seems obsessed with hijacking American planes.

We need to find a way to negotiate the capitalist American Dream which appeals to many immigrants across the globe with dialogue about prudent banking.








[deleted]

[Peace Warrior]

I think that other economic systems did and do meet the needs of the societies they serve, it is just the prejudice of those who will accept only capitalism that blinds people to the fact.

Caveat: I am more narrowly definitive of the ideal(s) of capitalism, but since you utilize the term capitalism as a broad brush term for a specific type of economic system, so will I in this response.


In my opinion, you are confusing the term capitalism, in its most basic sense, with the representation of today's united States capitalism under the fiat based currency provided by and through the auspices of the private banker owned and private banker operated Federal Reserve. Any and every economic system operating under the heavy hand of a debt based fiat currency, such as we have here in the united States under the Federal Reserve, is not limited to the economic rule or governance according to the precepts of capitalism proper, but rather our economic system has, is, and will continue to operate according to the whims and manipulation for gain of a very limited number of individuals.

Were it not for the forced guidance of these self-proclaimed, global elite and their forced manipulation of our, if you will, economic ebb and flow, capitalism as a Biblically derived economic system would be an accurate, welcome, and fair system of placing economic value on both goods and services within our economy. Without a debt based fiat currency mandated for trade of goods and services, capitalism would also harmonize quite nicely with all those who followed even the most basic of Holy Bible based principles.

So knowing, capitalism has rarely been given the reins to run freely in this country, but when it has, our economy has NEVER been stronger.

-PW