Purgatory

[LightHammer]

What is it about Purgatory that the Orthodox Successors don't like? I mean like why don't we agree on this doctrine?

[CDHealy]

This Ortho Wiki article may provide some general help:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Purgatory

In general, Orthodox object to the ability of temporal fire to cleanse from sin, as well as to the dogmatizing that the Roman Catholic Church does on the matter of purgatory.  Further, the dogma of purgatory, based in juridical rationales, led to the abuses of indulgences and so forth.

[Catholica]

CDHealy, what about Theosis?  Doesn't that continue after death?

[CDHealy]

It does, but purgatory and theosis are two different things.

[Catholica]

How does purgatory differ from theosis?

[CDHealy]

Theosis begins (for the Christian) in this mortal life, but continues into eternity.  Theosis is not the temporal punishment of sins, but is, in fact, the assimilation of the life of God by the grace of God through one's entire being.

[Catholica]

Theosis begins (for the Christian) in this mortal life, but continues into eternity.  Theosis is not the temporal punishment of sins, but is, in fact, the assimilation of the life of God by the grace of God through one's entire being.

We also believe in doing penance to atone for the damage that sin has done to our soul in this life, and that purgatory is the continued cleansing of our soul from those sins in the next.

Why does a person have to go through Theosis?  What part does a particular person's sins play in how much theosis is necessary for each person?  Does sin have no factor, or does a person who has committed more sin require a greater degree of theosis before they have assimilated the life of God through their entire being?  I hope that makes sense?

Again, I'm trying to learn the difference, whether it is semantic or real.  What I have learned from an Eastern Catholic priest is that the beliefs of East and West are very similar and basically differ in semantics.

[CDHealy]

Orthodox believe that atonement for sins is through Christ alone.  Further, the Orthodox understanding of salvation is very minimally seen in a juridical context and is overwhelmingly viewed through the context of healing.  Thus, after confession, if my priest "gives me a penance" it is not about "atoning" for my sins (those have already been forgiven, which he has just declared to me) but rather are designed to heal the spot in my soul where this illness (sin) lies.  It may be memorizing Scripture because my thoughts are distorted and need to be healed by contemplation on the divine written word.  It may be reconciling with my brother or sister because that spot in my heart has become damaged by conflict and harmful words, and reconciliation and mutual forgiveness heals the brokenness in me and between my brother and sister and me.  And so forth.

I don't mean to belabor the point, but I want to stress that there is nothing of merit talk here: no redeemed sinner could ever acquire an overabundance of merit through their actions to compensate for their sins.  This transactional metaphor is just utterly foreign to us Orthodox, and no amount of transactional activity could ever heal the soul.

So, for Orthodox, salvation is entirely the healing the soul and person of sin and death.  The only way that we can be healed of that disease is to not only come in contact with the divine life, but to incorporate (both metaphorically and in the most radical literal sense possible) within our entire selves the life of God.  For most of the West, salvation is from sin.  For Orthodox salvation is from death.

Theosis, then, is nothing less than the increasing participation of our selves, body and soul, in the life of God.  When we consume the Holy Gifts of Christ's Body and Blood, we quite literally take into our bodies the Divine Life, and our souls are quite literally united--through God's gracious energies--with the Divine Life.  As St. Ignatios of Antioch said the Eucharist is the medicine of immortality.

If we do not participate in the life of God, we have no life in ourselves.  Theosis is not how we are cleansed to share in God's love, it is the absolute source of God's love to us.  Just as when Jesus raised the dead man of Nain to life he could not longer be contaminated by death, so, too, when we take into ourselves the Holy Body and Blood of Jesus, we are enlivened, enlightened, and cleansed of sin.

Theosis is and cannot be temporal, since it is a participation (koinonia) of the Divine Life of God.  It is eternal.  And given that we only live so long as we are participants of his life, this life will go on into eternity forever, because God's life and love are limitless and we can never contain them.  But just as Mary contained the uncontainable God in her womb, so we too, finite creatures, will and do contain within us the infinite life of God.

There is no transactional elements in theosis as there are in the dogma of purgatory.  Just as there are no transactional elements in a mother sharing her own life with the life of the baby in her womb, so we live because he lives in us.

We are healed of death and sin because we, in the activity of theosis, take on God's holy and pure life.  We can only live if we forever participate in this life.

Purgatory is temporal and ends and is based on a system of merits and abundance of meritorious works.  There is nothing more dissimilar to theosis than this.

I can appreciate why a Byzantine Catholic would promote the notion that the differences East and West are semantic.  Byzantine Catholics, by their tradition and history, are Orthodox in their core identity, but they have split from Orthodoxy by accepting the universal jurisdictional authority and infallibility of the See of Rome.  They do not want to reject their birthright, yet, they have left their brethren.  They almost have to reduce the differences to semantics to try to keep their historical identity with their allegiance to Rome.

But, with all due respect to Father with whom you spoke, the differences are real, significant and not just a matter of words.

[LightHammer]

For most of the West, salvation is from sin.  For Orthodox salvation is from death.

Isn't that the epitome of semantics? I know one is the product of the other but if salvation is from death and the wages of sin is therefore death isn't the Truth a compromise of both that salvation is sin and its subsequent fruit death? I understand Theosis is growing closer to God, which is to be free from death, which is merely separation from God. However isn't Theosis simply a blanket theory for a bunch of different fullbrings within the process of a believer's life that brings them closer to God?

With that in mind if, and I'm not even sure I have the understanding to bring up this point, but if sin is a foreign but still conjoined organelle of our nature as descendants of the fallen Adam and Eve, doesn't purgatory fit as the supernatural tool God uses to separate us from that nature? I know there's water baptism but I thought was for washing away sin so that the Holy Spirit would descend into us not that we don't sin our suffer the affliction of temptation which is a product of our sinful nature after water baptism. If that is true and we still even as saved believers suffer the sinful nature via inheritance of Adam and Eve why is purgatory which explains the separation of one from that nature rejected?

[CDHealy]

For most of the West, salvation is from sin.  For Orthodox salvation is from death.

Isn't that the epitome of semantics? I know one is the product of the other but if salvation is from death and the wages of sin is therefore death isn't the Truth a compromise of both that salvation is sin and its subsequent fruit death?

It may appear so, but it's the difference, as I tried to articulate, between a juridical understanding and a healing understanding.  Only in the context of an understanding of sin and its forgiveness as a legal transaction (where such a metaphor is dominant) would the dogma of purgatory arise.  Indulgences of time are given for the performance of specific acts which are seen as adding to one's merits to compensate for the deficit of merits.  Saints have a superabundance of merits (because they've done enough work to not only work off all the deficit amounts, but have also added to their store of merits).  You and I, through particular acts of devotion to a particular saint, may make a withdrawal from that saints' account.  If, at the time of death, one's account is still in deficit, then for a specific amount of time, one will suffering temporal punishment, until one's account is reconciled.

In a healing understanding, this arrangement just simply cannot work.  One does not go to the doctor and say, "Okay, doc, I want to reduce my time of suffering this cold by three days, what can you do for me? Can I take some of your health out of your health account to compensate for my illness?"  No, one wants to be well.

I understand Theosis is growing closer to God, which is to be free from death, which is merely separation from God. However isn't Theosis simply a blanket theory for a bunch of different fullbrings within the process of a believer's life that brings them closer to God?

Theosis is not simply a growing closer to God.  It is, as I have tried (perhaps not well) to explain above, the actual and mystical incorporation of the life of God into oneself.  It is not a technique.  It is not a group of different things inside or outside the Christian.  It is, in a word, God in his energies, the expression of his Divine Nature.

I should pause here and state that part of the reason for the dissonance on this topic is that Orthodox understand God differently from Western Christians.  In the West, God is reduced to his nature (definitional or absolute divine simplicity).  This has come from the adoption of the filioque in the Creed, where the Spirit's personal procession (the origin of which the East believes is unique to the Person of the Father) is predicated as a common activity of the nature between Father and Son.  This conflation of a personal procession with an activity of the nature results in the doctrine of absolute divine simplicity, which confuses the Persons of the Holy Trinity and results in an inability of God and man to co-participate in God's life.  As a result, theosis is seen as an activity external to the nature of God, but if so, then not-God.  Thus, in the West, grace is a creature and not the life of God itself.  In the East, grace is indeed and in fact, the very life of God communicated in his energies, through and in which man can and does co-participate in God's very life.

With that in mind if, and I'm not even sure I have the understanding to bring up this point, but if sin is a foreign but still conjoined organelle of our nature as descendants of the fallen Adam and Eve, doesn't purgatory fit as the supernatural tool God uses to separate us from that nature? I know there's water baptism but I thought was for washing away sin so that the Holy Spirit would descend into us not that we don't sin our suffer the affliction of temptation which is a product of our sinful nature after water baptism. If that is true and we still even as saved believers suffer the sinful nature via inheritance of Adam and Eve why is purgatory which explains the separation of one from that nature rejected?

The Orthodox Church does not teach that sin is part of the man's nature.  Man's nature is distorted, but sin is not natural to man.  It is, if you will, a contagion that needs eradication and healing.  If sin were part of man's nature, then eradicating sin would be eradicating (a part of) man's nature.  No, sin is alien to man's nature, and the process of salvation is man being healed from this alien contagion.

Yes, part of the distortion of man's nature is the inheritance of mortality.  When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, they didn't just incur some sort of legal problem, they turned away from God, who is life, and in so doing, they took on death and passed mortality to all their children.  Adam and Eve sinned apart from death, though their human nature was not sinful or evil.  But we, as descendants of Adam and Eve do in fact inherit bodily the mortality that Adam and Eve brought on the human race.  Because mortality infects us, we pass that infection on to others.  And because we have this mortal weakness within us, we are more inclined to sin than if we had the unblemished nature that Adam and Eve had.  We still have free will, because God's image within us is not eradicated, but since our natures have been weakened by sin, the temptation to sin is more powerful within us.  Just as a body whose immune system is already compromised (bad diet, lack of sleep) and is therefore more susceptible to sickness, so too for us.  Just as we can choose to strengthen our immune system and become healthier (good diet, exercise, plenty of liquids, water, vitamins, etc.), so too we can accept God's grace (and then pray, contemplate Scripture, do acts of piety and charity) and become strengthened against the temptation to sin.

In light of that, then, the acceptance of God's life (theosis) is not this or that technique, or this or that group of things, we can add to our life which can motivate us into relational proximity to God.  Theosis is the incorporation, the acquisition, of the very life of God himself, which, in itself, brings us into personal (as opposed to natural) union (not merely relational proximity) with God.

[Catholica]

That is because purgatory is a man-made doctrine. It isn't found anywhere in the Bible.

If you believe the Bible, then you believe in "Purgatory," at least in concept, and I can prove it to you.

[Lively Stone]

Theosis begins (for the Christian) in this mortal life, but continues into eternity.  Theosis is not the temporal punishment of sins, but is, in fact, the assimilation of the life of God by the grace of God through one's entire being.

We also believe in doing penance to atone for the damage that sin has done to our soul in this life, and that purgatory is the continued cleansing of our soul from those sins in the next.

The atonement is in the blood of Jesus Christ!

We cannot atone for sin. You devalue God's salvation plan. I fear for those who hold the blood in low regard, and as INEFFECTUAL!

[chestertonrules]

Theosis begins (for the Christian) in this mortal life, but continues into eternity.  Theosis is not the temporal punishment of sins, but is, in fact, the assimilation of the life of God by the grace of God through one's entire being.

We also believe in doing penance to atone for the damage that sin has done to our soul in this life, and that purgatory is the continued cleansing of our soul from those sins in the next.

The atonement is in the blood of Jesus Christ!

We cannot atone for sin. You devalue God's salvation plan. I fear for those who hold the blood in low regard, and as INEFFECTUAL!

Jesus tells us to atone for our sins against a brother before approaching the altar with our gifts.

Once again, it seems that you disregard the teachings of Jesus that don't fit into your modernist dogma.

[Lively Stone]

Theosis begins (for the Christian) in this mortal life, but continues into eternity.  Theosis is not the temporal punishment of sins, but is, in fact, the assimilation of the life of God by the grace of God through one's entire being.

We also believe in doing penance to atone for the damage that sin has done to our soul in this life, and that purgatory is the continued cleansing of our soul from those sins in the next.

The atonement is in the blood of Jesus Christ!

We cannot atone for sin. You devalue God's salvation plan. I fear for those who hold the blood in low regard, and as INEFFECTUAL!

Jesus tells us to atone for our sins against a brother before approaching the altar with our gifts.

Once again, it seems that you disregard the teachings of Jesus that don't fit into your modernist dogma.

We are to make it right LATERALLY, but the atonement for all sin is in the BLOOD of JESUS!

You completely misapprehend truth because of the erroneous doctrines of your organization.

[chestertonrules]

Theosis begins (for the Christian) in this mortal life, but continues into eternity.  Theosis is not the temporal punishment of sins, but is, in fact, the assimilation of the life of God by the grace of God through one's entire being.

We also believe in doing penance to atone for the damage that sin has done to our soul in this life, and that purgatory is the continued cleansing of our soul from those sins in the next.

The atonement is in the blood of Jesus Christ!

We cannot atone for sin. You devalue God's salvation plan. I fear for those who hold the blood in low regard, and as INEFFECTUAL!

Jesus tells us to atone for our sins against a brother before approaching the altar with our gifts.

Once again, it seems that you disregard the teachings of Jesus that don't fit into your modernist dogma.

We are to make it right LATERALLY, but the atonement for all sin is in the BLOOD of JESUS!

You completely misapprehend truth because of the erroneous doctrines of your organization.

Atonement has more than one meaning.

Your narrow minded approach continually leads you into blind alleys and errors.

[Thankfulldad]

Atonement has more than one meaning.

Your narrow minded approach continually leads you into blind alleys and errors.

Matthew 7:13-14...Enter through the narrow gate.  For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.  14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Narrow minded is good...according to God.  We are to watch out for false prophets...that give a wide road with find sounding arguements, but will only lead to destruction.

[Lively Stone]

Theosis begins (for the Christian) in this mortal life, but continues into eternity.  Theosis is not the temporal punishment of sins, but is, in fact, the assimilation of the life of God by the grace of God through one's entire being.

We also believe in doing penance to atone for the damage that sin has done to our soul in this life, and that purgatory is the continued cleansing of our soul from those sins in the next.

The atonement is in the blood of Jesus Christ!

We cannot atone for sin. You devalue God's salvation plan. I fear for those who hold the blood in low regard, and as INEFFECTUAL!

Jesus tells us to atone for our sins against a brother before approaching the altar with our gifts.

Once again, it seems that you disregard the teachings of Jesus that don't fit into your modernist dogma.

We are to make it right LATERALLY, but the atonement for all sin is in the BLOOD of JESUS!

You completely misapprehend truth because of the erroneous doctrines of your organization.

Atonement has more than one meaning.

Your narrow minded approach continually leads you into blind alleys and errors.

God wants us to be narrow-minded---utterly discriminating---about the truth of the word of God. When you devalue the efficacy of the blood of Jesus, you step off into darkness.

An open mind that claims Christ is like an unlidded manhole: someone could fall in.

[Lively Stone]

Atonement has more than one meaning.

Your narrow minded approach continually leads you into blind alleys and errors.

Matthew 7:13-14...Enter through the narrow gate.  For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.  14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Narrow minded is good...according to God.  We are to watch out for false prophets...that give a wide road with find sounding arguements, but will only lead to destruction.

[Catholica]

Acts 26:20 On the contrary, first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem and throughout the whole country of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached the need to repent and turn to God, and to do works giving evidence of repentance.

[Lively Stone]

Acts 26:20 On the contrary, first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem and throughout the whole country of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached the need to repent and turn to God, and to do works giving evidence of repentance.

It is wise counsel that encourages believers to make sure their behaviour reflects their new nature in Christ. You cannot squeak out any more meaning than that.

[Catholica]

Acts 26:20 On the contrary, first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem and throughout the whole country of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached the need to repent and turn to God, and to do works giving evidence of repentance.

It is wise counsel that encourages believers to make sure their behaviour reflects their new nature in Christ. You cannot squeak out any more meaning than that.

Merriam Webster definition of penance: an act of self-abasement, mortification, or devotion performed to show sorrow or repentance for sin. 

Acts 26:20 is showing how Paul preached what Jesus told him directly through his vision, which was the need to both repent and do penance.  Paul first counsels them to make sure their behavior reflects their new nature in Christ by repenting, then he tells them to need to do acts of penance.  You can't get any less from this verse than that.

[Lively Stone]

Acts 26:20 On the contrary, first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem and throughout the whole country of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached the need to repent and turn to God, and to do works giving evidence of repentance.

It is wise counsel that encourages believers to make sure their behaviour reflects their new nature in Christ. You cannot squeak out any more meaning than that.

Merriam Webster definition of penance: an act of self-abasement, mortification, or devotion performed to show sorrow or repentance for sin.  

Acts 26:20 is showing how Paul preached what Jesus told him directly through his vision, which was the need to both repent and do penance.  Paul first counsels them to make sure their behavior reflects their new nature in Christ by repenting, then he tells them to need to do acts of penance.  You can't get any less from this verse than that.

Paul preaches NOTHING OF THE KIND!

Repentance and penance are two different things. When we have remorse, we repent. We do not need to do penance before the Lord. He has done it already.

Acts 26:20
I preached first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that all must repent of their sins and turn to God—and prove they have changed by the good things they do.


You are preaching a gospel of works...

The Roman Catholic Church, because it adds works to the finished work of Christ in order to be made right with God, thus preaches a false gospel.

Galatians 1:8-9
Let God's curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. 9 I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.

[Catholica]

Lively, I doubt that a "gospel of works" is what you think it means, or if it is, that if you actually took the time to understand Catholicism, that you would still believe that our gospel is a "gospel of works".   Have you ever taken the time to actually understand how the Catholic Church teaches salvation?

[Lively Stone]

Lively, I doubt that a "gospel of works" is what you think it means, or if it is, that if you actually took the time to understand Catholicism, that you would still believe that our gospel is a "gospel of works".   Have you ever taken the time to actually understand how the Catholic Church teaches salvation?

That is exactly what penance is---a gospel of works. The Catholic church needs to teach the truth of the word of God. There is no other truth than what the Bible teaches.

The RCC system of penance is an unbiblical, works-based system that keeps the Catholic in submission to the sacramental legislation of the mother Church. Instead of the RCC pointing to Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God, it teaches that a person must perform works to make himself right with God.

Scripture clearly teaches us that our position and righteousness with God is not based upon anything that we must do. Quite the OPPOSITE!  Scripture clearly teaches that we are justified before God by faith. In other words, it is by faith alone in Christ alone in his work alone that makes us right with God. There is no way that anyone is able to remove his sin through any of his sin-stained efforts.


You do not understand Jesus, if this is what you hold to. You need a revelation of the CROSS!

[Thankfulldad]

Scripture clearly teaches us that our position and righteousness with God is not based upon anything that we must do. Quite the OPPOSITE!  Scripture clearly teaches that we are justified before God by faith. In other words, it is by faith alone in Christ alone in his work alone that makes us right with God. There is no way that anyone is able to remove his sin through any of his sin-stained efforts.


You do not understand Jesus, if this is what you hold to. You need a revelation of the CROSS!

Amen!

Many are enemies of the cross and don't even know it

They point to the cross...then point to themself.  Me is what will get me to God...me and me alone...with some help from Jesus...as long a me is doing what pleases God.

How much will we have to un-learn before we know the truth?  And get to the place of Christ alone?

Manna to you Stone for making it simple, narrow...ONE WAY...God's way.

[LightHammer]

I have no interest in arguing. I would just like to remind the protestants who have chosen to manipulate the purpose of this thread that this is not the proper arena for such a debate. I made this thread to better understand why my Orthodox Catholic brothers object to Purgatory, not as a battlefield for protestants to voice their lack of understanding of the doctrine. This is the Eastern Orthodox Forum not the (Roman) Catholic Forum. As such it is not the appropriate venue for this dialogue.


I am asking that the proponents of this discussion transfer yourselves to the Catholic Forum to continue any further attack or defense of this doctrine. This isn't the place for Catholics to be defending itself against the dark arrows of protestantism. The mods gave us a place for that. Catholics and Protestants please return to that area and leave the Eastern Orthodox Forum for things meant and pertaining to the Eastern Orthodox.


Doubt that affects anyone but I thought I'd make the request anyway. 

[Lively Stone]

If the eastern Orthodox repudiate Purgatory, that's one up for them!

[Wednesday]

Gee, ya'll are using big words.  I don't know where "repudiate" is or what country, but I'm going to Disney World when I die. 

[trifecta]

To return to topic, yes, there is no purgatory in the Orthodox Church.  Therefore, we never had indulgences either.   

[Lively Stone]

To return to topic, yes, there is no purgatory in the Orthodox Church.  Therefore, we never had indulgences either.   

Those are pleasant words to read.

[Ladonia]

If the eastern Orthodox repudiate Purgatory, that's one up for them!

Lively Stone has given his/her blessing to the Eastern orthodox. You guys are surely OK now!