Marriage

[Janice]

I find it sad that so many still have such a bad view of women. To them we are nothing but property or chattle. For a man to demand respect tells me more about him than her. I also find it ironic that women are often told that no matter how he treats you, we must submit. But when a man has complaints they are told 'well, she needs to be take down a notch!' Why don't we tell them it doesn't matter, you must still love her. Double standards abound.

Imo, men would do their wives and communities a great service by attending Promise Keepers events. It is by men, for men, about how to really love their wives in a way that will initiate the wife's respect.

[Janice]

I find it sad that so many still have such a bad view of women. To them we are nothing but property or chattle. For a man to demand respect tells me more about him than her. I also find it ironic that women are often told that no matter how he treats you, we must submit. But when a man has complaints they are told 'well, she needs to be take down a notch!' Why don't we tell them it doesn't matter, you must still love her. Double standards abound.

1 Peter 3:

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,

Kind of sounds like the "double-standard" that you hate, doesn't it? Even in the case of an unbelieving husband, a wife is to be submissive.

And a husband standing up to his wife is not an unloving thing for him to do with her. Marriage is not a symmetrical relationship, because men and women are not exactly the same.

The term is more accurately translated into respect. Women are to respect their husbands. That has nothing to do with "being submissive."

The other part of this is the attitude of submission. Submitting to one another. What does it mean? It does NOT mean obedience. It comes only from the one doing the submitting. There are nuances to submission that are being misunderstood and misused. Submission is about an attitude that says "I am putting your well-being above my own. I am putting my own needs aside in order to meet your needs first." Since submission is an attitude, it can never be demanded by another. Demanding "submission" is nothing more than demanding obedience, and compliance is not submission. Real submission comes from the one who is submitting - it is voluntary, and comes from a place of love. It is about "considering others above yourselves" (philippians 2:3). It is about humility, and that is what all believers are called to - especially within marriage as we use marriage to demonstrate the relationship between Christ and the church.

Submission is not about obedience. It is about humility and love.

[MeMyself]

I find it sad that so many still have such a bad view of women. To them we are nothing but property or chattle. For a man to demand respect tells me more about him than her. I also find it ironic that women are often told that no matter how he treats you, we must submit. But when a man has complaints they are told 'well, she needs to be take down a notch!' Why don't we tell them it doesn't matter, you must still love her. Double standards abound.

1 Peter 3:

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,

Kind of sounds like the "double-standard" that you hate, doesn't it? Even in the case of an unbelieving husband, a wife is to be submissive.

And a husband standing up to his wife is not an unloving thing for him to do with her. Marriage is not a symmetrical relationship, because men and women are not exactly the same.

The term is more accurately translated into respect. Women are to respect their husbands. That has nothing to do with "being submissive."

The other part of this is the attitude of submission. Submitting to one another. What does it mean? It does NOT mean obedience. It comes only from the one doing the submitting. There are nuances to submission that are being misunderstood and misused. Submission is about an attitude that says "I am putting your well-being above my own. I am putting my own needs aside in order to meet your needs first." Since submission is an attitude, it can never be demanded by another. Demanding "submission" is nothing more than demanding obedience, and compliance is not submission. Real submission comes from the one who is submitting - it is voluntary, and comes from a place of love. It is about "considering others above yourselves" (philippians 2:3). It is about humility, and that is what all believers are called to - especially within marriage as we use marriage to demonstrate the relationship between Christ and the church.

Submission is not about obedience. It is about humility and love.

yep...and its so much more beautiful a concept than just simply shutting off your brain and complying.

[lonegreywolf20]

Unedited:

NOTE:
I would spend more time addressing men and what they need to do in the event their wives are disobedient to the word, but that is not the focus of my post.

I have spoken numerous times here and elsewhere that the husband is not excused from fulfilling what God commands and instructs him to continue to do even in the face of a disobedient and irreverent wife.

 
Now onward:




You have heard it said:

"How very sad that you see fit to judge and condemn those who are wanting to help, but may just be able to see things differently from you, and those who incidently have good and happy marriages. There are two sides to every story, and those who have a downer on women here..."

"For to say that those who don't agree with you are being 'taught by false teachers' is appalling. You know nothing about what they are taught.

"How very sad that you see fit to judge and condemn those who...

This is precisely what I was referring to beforehand in a post to JWH.

Judge and condemn? No. You are too, too sloppy in your understanding and use (ability to correctly or justly make applications) of these terms.

You say how very sad...
No. How very grievous and sad – and that to no end, that individuals, such as yourself are so invested in these delusions being sold to you as 'truth' -  which to you, IS the 'truth'.

Eve had the very same problem once she "saw" - was beguiled, by the false 'promise' of 'liberty' she swallowed, which the serpent (the Enemy) convinced her was the truth. He turned the truth of God into the lie.

The same trickery is still effectual in the case of woman to this day...and the same weakness still plagues men who capitulate to the charms or the incessant (drip...drip...drip) badgering of selfish, silly women laden with sin Women, who in their tendency to be shortsighted at times, hatch a scheme that weak-willed, and dull-minded men (at times we all are prone to this weakness) will foolishly allow themselves to hearken to...hearken to the voice of their women. It brought both Adam and Abraham to a state of being that they lived to regret (there are numerous other examples in scriptures and in life that point this out).

JustWonderingsHusband as well as others (present company included) have either learned this sad lesson by living it out in their own lives; or have seen it in the lives of others.

THE ERROR of falsely so-called MUTUAL SUBMISSION

But this (unsound) teaching is not only NOT the truth and thus a lie; but this false corrupt and unwholesome teaching is in fact one of the very errors that Peter warned about, not to allow yourself to be led astray (away) by.

If other women can avoid it, so can you. Not all women are so fool-hearty to take heed to seducing spirits and swallow these pernicious errors – and frankly so poorly crafted examples of the scriptures being 'wrested'.

You can recover yourself if you are willing and follow that up with obedience. But you'll never come clear of these things if you do not step back a bit and give this admonition and reproof due consideration. What grieves me to my core is how few...very precious few, possess the humility of heart and a core love and fear of the God  - the God, they are so vehement to profess they 'know': that when admonished, reproved or rebuked for their ignorant claims and for 'standing' so 'strong' in what amounts to nothing more than 'standing strong' in the instability of the delusions they want to believe in. Resolving to remain implacable in one's pride, rebellion and willingly ignorant is not the same as abiding in the truth...being as Paul wrote about, "steadfast, immovable" producing "fruit in the Lord".


You have no idea how serious a position people like yourself are in believing things (teachings; notions) that you have not fully vetted through a thorough and bare-bones honest inquire into the scriptures. Yes, I am claiming to have done so. As thorough as necessary to determine the meaning of what God actually is teaching on the subjects in question and being addressed in this thread...and I have continued and will yet continue to refine my understanding of these scriptural truths.

Judge...do I judge...even people and the things they claim 'God is saying' in the scriptures (to be sound teaching)? Yes, to be sure. I am required (commanded) to do so, and to do so in a just and righteous manner. Condemn? Condemn? To practice condemnation on the other hand is reserved only for God. There is a difference...as a matter of application, the words can be understood to refer to two different aspects of the process of discerning and making appraisals as to what the facts are and what are not; what is just and true and what is not; who serves God and who does not, but serves their own (or others) interests. 

I do not condemn you or the others akin to you, who routinely visit and post on this forum; who espouse the errors that you do and the errors that others do many times in their posts. If I did, I would not even bother at times to address you (for example) and give encouragement to you to step back a moment from, and stop reacting in a 'knee-jerk' reflexive manner what is being said to you (or written to others) for your (or their) good. 

But since you are sold on these false teachings you espouse, certainly you (and the others) will take up an offense against not only what I testify to be sound and scripturally accurate, you will 'judge' and 'condemn' me for being 'judgmental' and a 'condemning' person. See the irony in this? Can you not admit the hypocrisy of such a mindset and attitude?


You and others who keep making the claim that Paul's instruction to the believers at Ephesus to submit to each other: "...submitting yourselves to one another...", is to be interpreted and thus understood to mean that Paul (God) requires mutual submission is a prime example of failing to "rightly divide the word of truth" and is what Peter warned occurs when unlearned and unstable individuals attempt to apply their 'skills' of exegesis to this or that passage or group of passages. They end up "wresting them to their own destruction". Now, Paul and Peter (as well as Jude, John and James, and Christ himself) were not making statements about nothing. They anticipated (foretold) that there will be those that do just what they warned of. This means that there was, will be but are even at this very moment, those who will be the unfortunate victims of failing to take heed to the warnings of the apostles – they are their own worse enemy; allowing themselves to be seduced into believing the lies of the Enemy and being turning the truth of God into a lie.

Now if you have no fear that this may in fact be the very case with you...if you are not sensing in the least, any level of tribulation any pause where you are willing to examine yourself in light of what is being stated here. Then I do indeed fear for you as I fear for others who are committed to their cause of continuing in their error.

Yes, it is an error. A gross misnomer being spread about by individuals such as yourself that insists on claiming that the phrase "...submitting yourselves to one another..." is teaching so-called 'mutual submission'.

The context is clear, clear enough that is, for any to determine who possesses a little bit of understanding of the mechanics of how to interpret the scriptures, and how to exercise that skill in order to determine what is being said and/or is not being said in a passage under examination or on a subject that is addressed in scripture. Part of all this, is understanding as to how the author has chosen to layout/present his statements. Paul's statements here (that is, the instructions he gives here, as he does elsewhere as well) are laid out in a way that requires one to understand that he was making an introduction to his next series of statements. To fully and accurately grasp what Paul is saying here in this letter, you have to, have made yourself very familiar as well with what ("all") the rest of the scriptures present on these subjects he's about to address.

It is not only incorrect but down right silly to think that Paul is here instructing men to submit to their wives just as and/or in the same way, that they are called (commanded) to subordinate themselves to their ("own") husbands. In no way or fashion is that Paul's meaning or message to the believers in Ephesus – or to us by extension. Perish the thought!

Others have spoken to this and made their attempts to correct you in this and help you see you are laboring under a false and erroneous notion here. So I am not under delusion I will by saying it in a different way, cause you to reexamine your fixations and myopic slant on this point.

But, nevertheless. The fact is Paul was merely setting the stage for what he was about to say to those who find themselves situated in the various sets of human-to-human relationships he would be speaking about: wives to their husbands; children to their fathers (parents); servant/slaves to their masters ("in the flesh"). These three categories ALONE, were the ones Paul called to 'submission'; not the husband to 'submit' to / be 'subject' to / be 'subordinate' under / "be in subjection to" / "be under obedience to" their wives. No where does it say this ever - in any case, in any passage throughout scripture - of the husband (man) to "be subject" (etc.) to his wife. Neither does Paul say such a thing here in this letter (passage). Again, I'll say. Perish the thought!

How do I 'know' this to be so? Apart from all the other passages that either directly contradict such a claim or do so indirectly (in the numerous and various narrative accounts throughout scripture that make this plain to see), just simply apply this 'logic' and curious 'method' of 'exegesis' to the following:





   "MASTERS – YOU TOO, be obedient to them that are your SERVANTS according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
   "Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the MASTERS of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
   "With good will EXERCISING PREROGATIVE PRIVILEGE and AUTHORITY, as to the Lord, and not to men:
   "Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
   "And, ye SERVANTS, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your SERVANT also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."


Let us go further here and apply this 'method' and 'logic' to the following in a different way. You tell the Lord – not me...which one is the truly sensible and honest way to interpret these:

"Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my MASTERS and/or SERVANTS fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.' "

"MASTERS / SERVANTS, be obedient to them that are your MASTERS / SERVANTS according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ. Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the MASTERS / SERVANTS of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart."

"MASTERS / SERVANTS, obey in all things your MASTERS / SERVANTS according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: "

"Let as many MASTERS / SERVANTS, as are under the yoke count their own MASTERS / SERVANTS worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. "

"Exhort MASTERS / SERVANTS to be obedient unto their own MASTERS / SERVANTS, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; "

"MASTERS / SERVANTS, be subject to your MASTERS / SERVANTS with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward."


Here is another passage to ponder:
   "And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my MISTRESS [MASTER] / HANDMAIDEN [SERVANT] into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.
   "But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy MISTRESS [MASTER] / HANDMAIDEN [SERVANT] is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
   "And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
   "And he said, Hagar, Sarai's MISTRESS [MASTER] / HANDMAIDEN [SERVANT], whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my MISTRESS [MASTER] / HANDMAIDEN [SERVANT] Sarai.
   "And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy MISTRESS [MASTER] / HANDMAIDEN [SERVANT], and submit thyself under her hands.

Do servants give orders to their masters to go into a field or do this or that? No. That would require the master to operate under the same order that servant/slaves are called and compelled to operate under and in accordance to.

Do servants threaten their masters and have the position of power to fulfill their threats? Where in scripture, does God ever require a master of a servant/slave to do what their servant/slaves command them to do? The question is absurd. The same goes for parents. Where does the scripture ever call upon parents to obey and honor their children? No where. So it is with husbands and wives.

The call to submit to one another here in Ephesians is NOT so-called mutual submission; but the general heading is directing those in positions of the subordinate roles within human-to-human relationships to submit to the role of 'rule' those who are placed over them are called to:

A. Wife under husband. He is her head, her master/husband, her teacher, her provider. It is her duty and call before God to meet his needs, in areas, that he is not to supposedly required to 'meet' her 'needs'. She was made for the man, not the other way around.

None of these truths effect or annul the man/husband of fulfilling what it is that God has truly called him to do in respect to lovingly guide, and guard and provide for his wife. Men are to rule – but rule justly in the fear of God, whoever they are called to rule...this includes their families. But if they do not; they are accountable to God for this and will give a full account to him One Day, to be sure.

The wife though, is called to still honor, reverence, love, be in subjection to, submit and obey ("be under obedience to") her own husband: EVEN if the case is so that he is neither good nor gentle, just or obedient to the Word of God. Those are the undeniable facts of the teachings found throughout scripture. It is not subject to debate; and certainly neither is it subject to change based upon subjectivity that is inherently a female weakness due to their nature (emotional and physiological makeup).

You as a woman and as a wife, are not provided any excuse, exception clause or way of escape from your responsibility to dutifully fulfill all the instructions and commands given to you as a woman and wife towards your husband – even in the event he turns out to be or becomes a harsh, ungracious and froward individual. To put it another way: you are still called and required by God to "Likewise be in subjection to your own husband, that even if any obey not the Word..." - that is, they are in no way persuaded it is their duty to submit to and/or fulfill the instructions and commands given to them in scripture as a husband. Period. So what will the wife do if the case is that her husband is unkind, ungracious, selfish, a bore, harsh, shortsighted and 'blows through' all the money spending it on things that have no lasting value – including for the years to come...or a very, very rainy (stormy) day of season? What is she to do? How is she to behave towards such a fellow. The answer is not at all complicated or hard to find in the scriptures. Just continue reading Peter's instructions to the wife in his letter (1Pet.3:1-6; see also 2:18-3:6 for some context...some, as it will be seen in the whole of Peter's letter that we one and all are called to endure suffering in a righteous manner. Not my words, but God's. Debate that fact with him. 

Justwonderingshusband: be strong and do the right thing in spite of your wives attitude. What that is for you is not for me precisely to say.

p.p

I read the whole thing and will be sticking with mutual submission within my Christian marriage.

Our marriage works and I will not be changing what works because someone else has a different interpretation of Scripture that does not agree with my own. There is much good fruit that comes from my marriage and we have been called blessed with a God centered marriage.

Apparently, we're doing something right.

[gracey71]

I find it sad that so many still have such a bad view of women. To them we are nothing but property or chattle. For a man to demand respect tells me more about him than her. I also find it ironic that women are often told that no matter how he treats you, we must submit. But when a man has complaints they are told 'well, she needs to be take down a notch!' Why don't we tell them it doesn't matter, you must still love her. Double standards abound.

1 Peter 3:

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,

Kind of sounds like the "double-standard" that you hate, doesn't it? Even in the case of an unbelieving husband, a wife is to be submissive.

And a husband standing up to his wife is not an unloving thing for him to do with her. Marriage is not a symmetrical relationship, because men and women are not exactly the same.

No. You missed the point. Lets say a woman is not behaving well towards her husband. Will you still love her the way the bible says to? Will you still lay down your life for her the way Christ laid down his life for the church? Or will you simply demand obedience? Because if a husband is treating his wife badly, we are still to submit, so, the same must be said for the husband's behavior towards a wife who is difficult, you must love her the way Christ loves the church...offer mercy, grace and love. Not scold her like she is a child.

[Lively Stone]

Its a husbands job to love His wife and its a wives job to respect her husband, but neither should ever 'demand' those thinsgs. Its almost impossible to have any respect for a man who throws his weight around and 'demands' that his wife obeys him. I could never respect a man who did that to me.

Exactly! Where would anyone be if the woman started demanding her husband love her? It's the same thing.

[Lively Stone]

I can see a few here want to be completely unreasonable, and then go on talking in paradoxes--demanding that a husband does not make demands.

But I hope the husband in this thread only pays attention to those who spoke to him who actually care about his well-being and dignity, and elects not to put up with verbal abuse and all-around awful behavior from a contentious woman.

Why do you call her contentious? She is unhappy. They are both at fault for the condition of their relationship, and they both have had to put up with each other's hurtful ways.

If anything, most of us see that, but to completely ignore both sides in favour of one is not an objective view.

[DaveW]

Bible says a wife is to submit to her husband. Period.

- - BUT - -

If he wants that from her he had darned-well better be willing to pony up himself:

Hebrews 13:17  Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

IOW, if you (as a guy) are not willing to submit and obey your congregational leaders, you have no right to demand any submission on the part of your wife.

[Lively Stone]

By all means stay the course on that note. Not only would it be unwise to do so – that is to, 'submit' to, or "be in subjection to" your wife, or "be subject to" her, and/or "be in obedience to" (obey) your wife - in the same way that God instructs [commands] her to do so to you "her own husband"; it would also be disrespectful to the Lord...he would not be pleased with you; and the results would be disastrous ...

And how disastrous the results would be if Jesus took this attitude from the Last Supper to the Cross, where he submitted himself to the best interest of the church!

He was submitting to his Father, who sent him to submit himself to the best interests of the church.

God was the one who commanded his son. The church didn't.

Okay. He was submitting to the Father. And the Bible is God's word. It says in Eph. 5:21 to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Do you have reverence for Christ? If so, you will practice mutual submission in your marriage. If you submit out of reverence to Christ, you are submitting to God' will, not to your wife.

These are the words "submit" in different contexts. It should be obvious by the context, but advocates of egalitarianism like to ignore obvious things.

"Submit to each other" in that context is referring to putting people's needs ahead of oneself. "Submit to your husbands" is a statement of authority, just like the context of slaves and masters ("slaves submit to your masters"). The "submit to each other" passage, which egalitarians try to use to nullify asymmetrical commands to husbands and wives, is actually immediately followed by "wives, be to your husbands as unto the Master." That is, it is immediately explained what "submitting to each other" entails between wives to husbands, and then husbands to wives, and the practice of "submitting to each other" is explained as having two different implementations: one for the wife, and a different way for the husband.

If "submit to each other" was a statement saying that husbands and wives are exactly the same way to each other, there wouldn't have been any need to address wives one way and husbands another, which is seen often in the New Testament (in a consistent manner). It's such basic, common sense, but those who prefer egalitarianism will use scripture as they please.

I believe that the whole idea of submission is addressing issues of power imbalance in authoritative relationships, and shows that there is no authority aside from God's. Jesus humbled himself and became nothing. That is about willingly giving up his authority in order to serve the church and to put her needs above his own. It is the very same with masters/slaves - in todays world that would be employers and employees. In fact, the principle, when applied to  business management, goes a long way for business owners, and employees have much respect for their bosses. In one case I am personally familiar with, one company was called on their debt. They could not pay it, so the bank was shutting them down. The employees had so much respect for him that they all submitted their final pay to him so he could pay off his debt. That was about 30 years ago. They are still in business today. i

The reason men and women are addressed differently is that women have a harder time respecting their husbands, and men have a harder time loving their wives - even though when all the frills are stripped away, love and respect are more synonymous than not. Men and women are called to do exactly the same things for each other. The term "submit" is not about male dominance. It is about the person's attitude. And not only that, but the word "submit" in verse 22 is actually more accurately translated into "respect". Women are to respect their husbands, men to love their wives, and each to submit (a matter of attitude) to each other.

[Cally]

Bible says a wife is to submit to her husband. Period.

- - BUT - -

If he wants that from her he had darned-well better be willing to pony up himself:

Hebrews 13:17  Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

IOW, if you (as a guy) are not willing to submit and obey your congregational leaders, you have no right to demand any submission on the part of your wife.

And like I've said before, with regard to some religious leaders, Jesus said:

Matthew 15:14
Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

The husband in this thread showed really sound judgment when it came to finances. He's not leading toward a pit. When most congregational leaders are demonstrating that they ignore their Bibles, they are leading toward a pit.

[Lively Stone]

I read the whole thing and will be sticking with mutual submission within my Christian marriage.

Our marriage works and I will not be changing what works because someone else has a different interpretation of Scripture that does not agree with my own. There is much good fruit that comes from my marriage and we have been called blessed with a God centered marriage.

Apparently, we're doing something right.

Yes, you surely are!

[justwonderingshusband]

I'm still reading, and wondering if there's ever going to be something that will actually help.

What I have noticed is that in the posts that I believe are mostly from women, it seems really important that someone is always "sacrificing".  Jesus "sacrificed" for us, he died a horrible death on the cross.

What is it that these wives expect their husbands to sacrifice?  Are they supposed to have somebody put them on a cross?  Or is it just being ready to do the shopping?  What, for a woman, is the definition of sacrifice?  Why do women see so many things they do as sacrifices, and expect their men to sacrifice for them?  The whole concept sort of makes life seem a little dismal, everybody "sacrificing" for each other?

Thinking like that also kind of "downgrades" what Jesus did for us.  How could anyone even think of comparing what we as humans do as anywhere closely resembling what Jesus Christ did for us?  I don't know of anyone who is even close to being the Son of God, who could have just said "I've had enough, pull me out.  I just want to go back to Heaven and hang out in bliss for eternity!"  Instead he stuck it out for us, when he could have instantly had what we are all yearning.

I think some of you people are a little hung up on your personal perceptions of what you sacrifice, and what you expect others to sacrifice.  I know there are people who sacrifice.  Those are the guys who dive on hang grenades to save their buddys.  People who get creamed by a bus pushing a child out of the way.  Men who go into nuclear reactors to fix something so the rest of the planet can survive.  Women who chose to die in childbirth, so that their child can have life.  Their are plenty of Heros in this world, but I don't get the feeling that any of them are posting on this thread.

I don't see how a marriage can work if one or the other feels like they are sacrificing.  It just seems crazy to think that my wife or I should sacrifice for each other.  If getting married was going to be some big sacrifice for your spouse, you probably shouldn't have done it.  When I got married it was because I thought it would be a better life, for both of us.  I didn't think I was getting a good deal because now she has to sacrifice, and so do I. 

I have never sacrificed for my wife or family.  The hard things I have done have been a responsibility and an honor.  I'm glad to have had the privilege of being counted on by the people who bless my life.  I'm not saying that the day might come when I do somehow sacrifice something for them, but after I do it I'm pretty sure I'll either be dead or in a wheel chair.  It won't have anything to do with laundry, dishes, or lawncare.

I know that this post has nothing to do with my marriage problem, but it's not the first time on this thread.

[Pfc Hall]

JustWonderingsHusband:

I think some of you people are a little hung up on your personal perceptions of what you sacrifice, and what you expect others to sacrifice.  I know there are people who sacrifice.  Those are the guys who dive on hang grenades to save their buddys.  People who get creamed by a bus pushing a child out of the way.  Men who go into nuclear reactors to fix something so the rest of the planet can survive.  Women who chose to die in childbirth, so that their child can have life.  Their are plenty of Heros in this world, but I don't get the feeling that any of them are posting on this thread.

That is a good point.  There certainly needs to be more appreciation for a sound understanding of what it means to be a hero. 

[MeMyself]

JustWonderingsHusband:

I think some of you people are a little hung up on your personal perceptions of what you sacrifice, and what you expect others to sacrifice.  I know there are people who sacrifice.  Those are the guys who dive on hang grenades to save their buddys.  People who get creamed by a bus pushing a child out of the way.  Men who go into nuclear reactors to fix something so the rest of the planet can survive.  Women who chose to die in childbirth, so that their child can have life.  Their are plenty of Heros in this world, but I don't get the feeling that any of them are posting on this thread.

That is a good point.  There certainly needs to be more appreciation for a sound understanding of what it means to be a hero. 

Why is that? I don't recall anyone but JWH bringing up the hero thing.

Sacrifice is a biblical concept.  Its called self denial. 

Not demanding one's own way.

Respecting another person's thoughts, needs, and desires and putting them above your own.

Treating your spouse the way you would like to be treated.

[Janice]

What is it that these wives expect their husbands to sacrifice?  Are they supposed to have somebody put them on a cross?  Or is it just being ready to do the shopping?  What, for a woman, is the definition of sacrifice?  Why do women see so many things they do as sacrifices, and expect their men to sacrifice for them?  The whole concept sort of makes life seem a little dismal, everybody "sacrificing" for each other?

A sacrifice is giving something up for the sake of your spouse. For example, before we married, my husband knew that due to my son's illness, I was unable to move geographically. He willingly packed up his home, left his established career, and moved more than 3,000 miles to be with me. He gave up everything for me. That was a sacrifice. Sacrifice costs you. If it does not cost you, it is not a sacrifice. Every time you compromise on mutual decisions, you are making a degree of sacrifice.

I do not expect my husband to sacrifice for me, but when he does, I know it is an act of deep love. It does not diminish what Jesus did on the cross for us. In fact, Jesus commands us to daily take up our cross to follow him - meaning that following Jesus will cost us. The relationship between a husband and wife is akin to the relationship between Jesus and the church, as outlined in Eph. 5 and throughout both the old and new testaments. Being married is going to cost, and we are expected to emulate the relationship that Jesus has with the church.

Sacrifices can be large or small. My husband made a huge sacrifice for me - his whole life (home, career, family of origin - all he was familiar with). He continues to sacrifice on a smaller scale. I also sacrifice. If I am exhausted after a hard day but had made plans with him, I will carry out our plans because I want to express my love in that way. Sometimes it means a late night after a hard day. Sometimes I sacrifice sleep, sometimes I sacrifice things like spending the day in the city (I hate the city but he loves it).

My little sacrifices do not necessarily feel like sacrifices because it brings me joy to show my love for him this way. And when I ask him if it was worth his moving here, he emphatically says yes, and he has no regrets.

But sacrifices are only a part of the overall expectation in marriage. Other expectations are selflessness, service and submission (another way of saying humbling yourself). It all has more to do with attitude than anything else. It all has to do with putting the other ahead or above yourself. And of course we cannot do this on the same scale that Jesus did - but we are called to do it, starting with our spouse.

The thing is that not everything has to be a sacrifice. Sometimes there are ways to find win-win solutions, like the situation with you and your wife. There is a way for her to have an updated home and still put money away for retirement. I find it very sad to see you have never sacrificed for your wife or family, although I'm sure you have done it without necessarily calling it that.

As for heroes? My husband is my hero because he is fearless in his sacrificial love for me. But even if he did not have to make that huge move to be with me, he would still be my hero because of the little things he does every day like letting me take the last seat on the tram or have the last ice cube.

[p.progress]

Note: Visited this site today (05-10-2018).
Read this old thread. Saw I had removed a post above to edit it. Here is a revised version of that and this post:

THE ERROR of falsely so-called MUTUAL SUBMISSION

If any have a mind to, the contextual setting is clear enough for them to understand the mechanics of how to interpret these passages - what is being said; and not being said in a passage, is simple to grasp...in many, many cases. This particular passage in this section: Ephesians 5:21 (and on) is one of them.

Paul's statement in verse 21, was stated to introduce his next subject. To grasp what Paul is saying here in this section you have to familiarize yourself (very well) with what the rest of the scriptures present on these subjects he's about to address. That is to say one needs to be conversant in "all the counsel of God" on these passages and on these subjects.

It is incorrect to think Paul is instructing men to submit mutually to their wives. He is not saying this. Men are not called (commanded) to subordinate themselves to their wives. In no way or fashion is that Paul's meaning (or message) to the believers in Ephesus – or to us by extension.

For those who need to hear this now – I'll say this and repeat it later:

TO TOUCH ON THE HUSBAND'S CALL

None of these facts of the truth, effect or disannul the man/husband from fulfilling the responsibilities given to him from the mouth of God, towards his wife. He is truly called to lovingly guide, and guard and provide for his wife. Are men called to rule? Yes. But to rule justly in the fear of God, whoever they are called to rule...this includes their families. But if they do not; they are accountable to God for this and will give a full account to him One Day, to be sure.

Is it easy for a woman to fulfill her responsibilities before God to her husband, if or when he is as Peter says, is neither good nor gentle, nor responsive (obedient) to the Word of God – especially with regard to how he treats his wife (and their children)? Of course not. Not on any human fleshly level. Let us be honest and clear here.

But what does the woman do? What is she called by the Lord to do in such cases?

That is exactly the issue Peter is addressing. His words are not ambiguous. She is not though going to be able to fulfill her duties to her husband (thus to the Lord) without a solid spiritual depth and stability of mind and heart. Yet there is no exception clause granted to her, for her NOT to behave as Peter calls her to – bad husband or not. That is the reality. It is therefore a wonderful thing when a wife is under the reign of a good and gentle just and self-sacrificing man for a husband. Ok?



Others have spoken to this and made their attempts to correct you [whoever this applies to] in this and help you see you are laboring under a false and erroneous notion here. So I am not under delusion what I say here will cause you to reexamine your slant on this point.

Nevertheless. The fact is, Paul was merely setting the stage for what he was about to say to those who find themselves situated in the various sets of human-to-human relationships he is about to speak to:
A. Wives to their husbands;
B. Children to their fathers (parents);
C. Servant/slaves to their masters ("in the flesh").

Unto these three categories of individuals - and only these three categories, did Paul give instructions to be subject (or submit) one another.

To the wife - to the children  - to servant/slaves – that is it. He did not give any instructions to the husband to 'submit' to / be 'subject' to / be 'subordinate' under / "be in subjection to" or "be under obedience to" their wives. No where does it say this ever - in any case, in any passage throughout scripture, for the husband (man) to "be subject" (etc.) to his wife - neither does Paul say such a thing here in this letter (passage).

So I have belabored this point.
Now: How do I 'know' this to be so?

Apart from all the other passages that either directly refute the idea of mutual submission (as defined by individuals that ascribe to your same views), or do so indirectly (in the numerous and various narrative accounts throughout scripture that make this plain to see). Just performing a simply but careful read of this particular passage in Ephesians, is enough to understand that this interpretive view is not substantiated by doing so. 

Look here below and see hopefully the folly of this view will be apparent by the change I have made in the following texts:

"Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my MASTERS fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.' "

"MASTERS, obey in all things your SERVANTS according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: "

"Let as many MASTERS, as are under the yoke count their own SERVANTS worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. "

"Exhort MASTERS to be obedient unto their own SERVANTS, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; "

"MASTERS, be subject to your SERVANTS with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward."


Let us go further here and apply this 'method' and 'logic' to the following in a different way. You tell the Lord – not me...which one is the truly sensible and honest way to interpret these:

"MASTERS – YOU TOO, be obedient to them that are your SERVANTS according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
   "Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the MASTERS of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
   "With good will EXERCISING PREROGATIVE PRIVILEGE and AUTHORITY, as to the Lord, and not to men:
   "Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
   "And, ye SERVANTS, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your SERVANT also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."


Here is another passage to ponder:
  "And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my MASTER [ MISTRESS] into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.
   "But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy MASTER is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
   "And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
   "And he said, Hagar, Sarai's MASTER, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my SERVANT [HANDMAIDEN] Sarai.
   "And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy SERVANT, and submit thyself under her hands."

Do servants give orders to their masters to go into a field or do this or that? No. That would require the master to operate under the same order that servant/slaves are called and compelled to operate under and in accordance to.

Do servants have the position and power to threaten and fulfill their threats to their masters? Where in scripture, does God ever require a master of a servant/slave to do what their servant command them to do?

The question is absurd. The same goes for parents.

Where does the scripture ever call upon parents to obey and honor their children? No where.

So it is with husbands and wives.

The call to submit to one another here in Ephesians is NOT the so-called 'mutual submission' being peddled in these forums. Rather it is but the general heading, Paul uses to introduce his next subject. It is his way of directing those in positions of the subordinate roles, within human-to-human relationships, to submit to the role those who are placed over them play in their lives – it is a call to submit to their 'rule':

Wife under husband. The man is the head of the woman. It is stated as well that the husband is the head of wife. The head does not submit or obey the body subordinate. The husband is not just the head of the wife; he is her master/husband (disagree – look it up), her teacher (1Cor.14; Eph.5), her provider, etc.

It is her duty and call before God to meet his needs. She was made for the man, not the other way around. Does that mean he is not expected by God to meet the needs God says he is to meet of hers? No.

But remember, this is not a post about the role of men; and certainly not about how they are to allegedly 'submit' to their wives.   

TO TOUCH ON THE HUSBAND'S CALL

None of these truths effect or disannul the man/husband of fulfilling what it is that God has truly called him to do in respect to lovingly guide, and guard and provide for his wife. Men are to rule – but rule justly in the fear of God, whoever they are called to rule...this includes their families. But if they do not; they are accountable to God for this and will give a full account to him One Day, to be sure.

The wife though, is called to still honor, reverence, love, be in subjection to, submit and obey ("be under obedience to") her own husband: EVEN if the case is so that he is neither good nor gentle, just or obedient to the Word of God. Those are the undeniable facts of the teachings found throughout scripture. It is not subject to debate; and certainly neither is it subject to change based upon subjectivity that is inherently a female weakness due to their nature (emotional and physiological makeup).

You as a woman and as a wife, are not provided any excuse, exception clause or way of escape from your responsibility to dutifully fulfill all the instructions and commands given to you as a woman and wife towards your husband – even in the event he turns out to be or becomes a harsh, ungracious and froward individual. To put it another way, the wife is still called and required by God to "Likewise be in subjection to your own husband, that even if any obey not the Word..." and all that follows in Peter's letter, regardless of her husbands attitudes towards her.

Those husbands, who are not persuaded it is their duty to submit to God and/or fulfill the instructions and commands given to them in scripture as a husband, certainly do not make it a joy or pleasant for a wife to fulfill her duties to him and the Lord. To be sure.

But what is to be the response of the wife, in the case where her husband is unkind, ungracious, selfish, a bore, harsh, shortsighted? Or also is in the habit of 'blowing through' all the money spending it on things that have no lasting value – including for the years to come...or a very, very rainy (stormy) day of season? What is she to do?

How is she to behave towards such a fellow?

The answer is not at all complicated or hard to find in the scriptures. Just continue reading Peter's instructions to the wife in his letter (1Pet.3:1-6; see also 2:18-3:6 for some context...some, as it will be seen in the whole of Peter's letter that we one and all are called to endure suffering in a righteous manner.

Not my words, but God's.

Debate that fact with him. 

[Janice]

Again, I have not bothered to read long-winded posts. But this part sprung off the page.

Men are not called (commanded) to subordinate themselves to their wives.

Submission is NOT about subordination. Submission is an attitude of putting another above self. It cannot come from anyone but from within. No one can force submission, otherwise it would not be submission. Again, the whole nature of submission is that it is done voluntarily. Otherwise, it is known as a domineering person forcing compliance on another (subordination)...and that is not submission. And the Bible certainly does NOT support subordination.

[Lively Stone]

I have never sacrificed for my wife or family. 

Aye. There's the rub.

What makes a person great is how he serves.

Luke 22:26
But among you it will be different. Those who are the greatest among you should take the lowest rank, and the leader should be like a servant.



A true leader is a servant-leader...which Jesus was.

[chosenone]

Again, I have not bothered to read long-winded posts. But this part sprung off the page.

Men are not called (commanded) to subordinate themselves to their wives.

Submission is NOT about subordination. Submission is an attitude of putting another above self. It cannot come from anyone but from within. No one can force submission, otherwise it would not be submission. Again, the whole nature of submission is that it is done voluntarily. Otherwise, it is known as a domineering person forcing compliance on another (subordination)...and that is not submission. And the Bible certainly does NOT support subordination.

This is so true. Submission is something that we choose to do, and for a strong person especially, it is a real gift to their spouse. Yes anyone can command or force obedience through fear or abuse if they choose to do so, but the heart attitude of both the controller and the controlled wont be right.
MY first husband, while not seriously abusive per say, could control us with his anger. SO, the unspoken rule was 'You keep me happy or I will get angry and shout'. So we would walk round on egg shells and there was no real peace in that home. My husband now never gets angry ever, is full of patience and kindness and what a relief that is for us. My respect for him is 100%. He earns our respect, my kids love him and they trust him and we can be ourselves around him.

SO as I said before this couple both need to work on themselves. Attitudes on BOTH sides are wrong and both need to change and work on their own failings and stop pointing fingers at the other. That achieves nothing.

[anx]

I'm still reading, and wondering if there's ever going to be something that will actually help.

Whew.  This is a big thread and has wandered in several different directions.

It's obvious everyone here wants to help.  And also that not everyone has the same guidance or viewpoints.  We all carry our own history and situations in with us, but not all are helpful in the end.

So here is my attempt.  It seems that the originator of the thread was looking for how to get to a better spot in her marriage.  It seems like her husband also wants to get to a better spot.  How to get there?

Pray
Reach out to God through prayer. Separately and together.  Extend it out, pray with the entire family.  Carve out a time to do a family devotion.  Prayer changes things.

Talk
Counseling.  So you've had two counselors that didn't meet your needs.  Find another one.  It will not be easy, you'll probably have times when you walk away and feel even more frustrated than before.  It took awhile to get to this point, it will likely take awhile to work back to a holy, healthy marital relationship.

Listen
To each other and to the Holy Spirit with respect and love.
For the tendencies to respond in anger, turn to the Lord and ask in help taming your tongues.  For the tendencies to bottle thing up, share in love.  (Hopefully the counselor would be able to help y'all set ground rules)

All of this can be done.  Many marriages in much worse shape have been redeeemed. 

Know that my prayers are being lifted up for you both. 

This was excellent advise. If you want a path to healing, this is it. This is an expression of love and commitment to your faith and your marriage for both parties. My marriage was also in terrible shape when we went to counseling. We had big issues that are now very much improved. We are both still learning to be married and a good spouse, which isn't something that comes naturally for me, but things are good.

Both your wife and you have gotten good and Godly advise as to how to make this work. It doesn't sound like either of you are interested in implementing it because it doesn't fit your idea of what needs to happen next for there to be happiness. For me, you both sound suborn with little hope of a fix with calloused hearts towards the other person. It sounds like you both want your way and neither of you are willing to give up ground for a happy marriage. A happy marriage is found in the middle of two very different people not in a suborn and unyielding side of one spouse. Neither of you are ever going to give up and accept all that your spouse thinks to be correct. It sounds like you are both unwilling to give up ground and find something in the middle that works because of past hurt. It sounds to me like you have different reasons for that, but in the end, both have the same outlook on your marriage.

It very much sounds to me like you justify your own stubbornness and position with your faith and the bible. In my humble opinion, I read very little sacrificial love in both of your posts. When reading through the new testament, I see consistent radical, sacrificial love from Jesus. Hope and love for  people considered most vile in society (tax collectors and prostitutes). I do not see how your view on your marriage matches the example from Jesus. I certainly do not measure up as a spouse to the sacrificial love of Jesus, but am trying to become more christlike in meaningful ways toward my wife.

[justwonderingshusband]

Mutual Submission:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/mutual_submission.htm

Sounds like a Complimentary Marriage to me.

Semantics.

[lonegreywolf20]

Mutual Submission:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/mutual_submission.htm

Sounds like a Complimentary Marriage to me.

Semantics.

In my marriage if we cannot agree on something, that something isn't decided until we are able to agree on it. Sometimes it's a couple days, sometimes weeks and sometimes we never agree and that decision is never made. We feel if we cannot agree on something, than that something isn't important enough and not something that we needed in our lives and we have never missed anything we couldn't agree on.

I hold no veto power over my wife, none what so ever, as she holds none over me.

[chosenone]

Mutual Submission:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/mutual_submission.htm

Sounds like a Complimentary Marriage to me.

Semantics.

In my marriage if we cannot agree on something, that something isn't decided until we are able to agree on it. Sometimes it's a couple days, sometimes weeks and sometimes we never agree and that decision is never made. We feel if we cannot agree on something, than that something isn't important enough and not something that we needed in our lives and we have never missed anything we couldn't agree on.

I hold no veto power over my wife, none what so ever, as she holds none over me.

We are very similar but if a decision needs to be made, and I am either not sure or we disagree(very rare) I will allow him to make that decision as I feel that is what I need to do to be obedient to God. Decisions are never left for ages unless neither of us is sure at that time what to do. My husband doesnt hold any power over me, its me giving it to him if the situation warrants it. 

At other times he will submit to what I think. For example, I have been feeling for months that God is leading us to move away, and that good and challenging changes are ahead. My husband didnt feel that we should or needed to move at all for a while, but now he has realised also that God is leading us to do this at some point in the near future. Sometimes God speaks to the wife first, and sometimes she is more sensitive to His leading.

[Janice]

Mutual Submission:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/mutual_submission.htm

Sounds like a Complimentary Marriage to me.

Semantics.

I barely glanced at the link and it is not mutual submission...especially when he still advocates that women are to obey their husbands. That is not mutual submission. What would make obedience mutual? Her obeying him but him also obeying her. What makes mutual submission is each submitting (having a humble attitude and service) to the other, but neither enforcing it.

There are a number of people on this thread that have made mutual submission very clear. You sound like a very intelligent person. Pick up a Greek Theological dictionary and do a study on it. It makes sense when you take it into Greek context, not various English translations.

[justwonderingshusband]

Mutual Submission:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/mutual_submission.htm

Sounds like a Complimentary Marriage to me.

Semantics.

In my marriage if we cannot agree on something, that something isn't decided until we are able to agree on it. Sometimes it's a couple days, sometimes weeks and sometimes we never agree and that decision is never made. We feel if we cannot agree on something, than that something isn't important enough and not something that we needed in our lives and we have never missed anything we couldn't agree on.

I hold no veto power over my wife, none what so ever, as she holds none over me.

Mutual Submission:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/mutual_submission.htm

Sounds like a Complimentary Marriage to me.

Semantics.

In my marriage if we cannot agree on something, that something isn't decided until we are able to agree on it. Sometimes it's a couple days, sometimes weeks and sometimes we never agree and that decision is never made. We feel if we cannot agree on something, than that something isn't important enough and not something that we needed in our lives and we have never missed anything we couldn't agree on.

I hold no veto power over my wife, none what so ever, as she holds none over me.

Waiting to make a decision is fine, but sometimes it can't be done.  Circumstances change, options dissappear, and waiting is not always an option.  Many times I don't even talk about what I'm thinking, the fact is that I keep most of it to myself.  By the time I'm talking about doing something, I am about 2/3 sure it is a "good idea".  But not certain enough to just go ahead and do it, especially since my life is now not mine alone.  Nor hers, we have the children.  As head of the family, all this is always a concern.  Short term, and long term.  When the uncertainty of the future comes into play, you need to draw heavily upon the past.  This is called experience, something of which no one has enough.  Coupled with wisdom, something that somehow includes the presence of God.

Most of the time, you can just wait.  But eventually not enough is happening, to the point where life stagnates, often killing hope in the process.  We all have hopes and dreams, which brings up another point.  If your spouse doesn't have the same values or ideas, life can become a never ending battle of the wills.  Does that make one right and the other wrong?  Whose values/goals are "wiser"?  Is there any guarantee that one or the other will "bear better fruit"?  If one feels "called" to do something, yet the other feels "called" to be against it, who is actually "hearing" the Lord?  Discernment?  Wisdom?  Impasse?  Stagnation?

"We feel if we cannot agree on something, than that something isn't important enough and not something that we needed in our lives and we have never missed anything we couldn't agree on."  If your spouse and you don't agree and let things pass by, and everything just stays the same.  How can one blame the other when nothing ever changes, either for the worse, .....or for the better.

If one just "walks" over the other to take the lead, it makes life twice as difficult, for both of them.  If it is a question of "direction", in an impass who sets the direction.  You can spend your lives sitting on the fence, and many people do.  But when that is the case, how can one blame the other for not having enough, or at least not having something "different".  How can they look at what others have and resent their spouse because they don't have it as well?

The Bible talks about being unequally yoked, but it is mostly to do with being a Christian or not.  Does it apply to the depth of your Faith and understanding as well?  To your ability to discern?  I don't like the arrogant path that those thoughts lead towards.  Perhaps your "equally yoked", but turning different directions. 

When people see a team of oxen at work, they seem to work together seamlessly.  But in reality there is always a lead ox.  In draft animals it is always the strongest and smartest, but a team is usually two castrated males.  What do you think will happen if you yoke a cow to a bull, who is going to lead.  No, we are not animals, but in Bible times virtually everyone understood the dynamics of draft animals.  It was an innate part of their culture, but the analogy tends to leave me wondering.  It leaves a lot open for "interpretation".  But I'm pretty sure that in Bible times being "yoked" had a pretty concise definition in everyone's mind, I only wish I had that insight today.

What would have been used for the analogy if the Bible were to be written today?  Tractor and trailer, pan and oven, PC and software, team and coach, car and driver?  I think you get the point, which is more important?  Some of those analogys really are 100% mutually reliant, but when I read the Bible looking for a pattern of life between people it is a lot like that until the hard choices come up.  Then I see a lot of "benevolent" leadership characters who do actually lead in difficult directions for the betterment of all.  After all, didn't Abram lead his family into the wilderness?  That probably didn't look too smart to very many people.  It certainly wasn't comfortable, secure, or safe.

Who are we to look to for guidance?  Our friends, our family, our pastors, our neighbors, our society, our government, or ourselves?  When I read the Bible it is pretty clear on leadership and submission, and while men are so far from qualified it is actually depressing, it must say what says what it says for a reason.

"I hold no veto power over my wife, none what so ever, as she holds none over me."  It sounds to me like you might lead an uncomplicated life, have a lot of common goals, and perhaps haven't ever really been pressed.  You can claim that you are both "in tune" with Gods Will, and that is very possible.  If so, you are Blessed.  I am absolutely not against the idea of two people living together under the influence of God's Will, it is the goal.  The Hope!

However, when it is boiled down to the salt.  Am I a domineering husband, or is she a rebellious wife?  Submission cannot be demanded, from either.  If both truly seek guidance, God's Will will intervene on both of their behalf.  When an impass persists, clearly there is a problem.  Which one is discerning?  Are either of them discerning?  What is the "test"?

[justwonderingshusband]

Mutual Submission:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/mutual_submission.htm

Sounds like a Complimentary Marriage to me.

Semantics.

In my marriage if we cannot agree on something, that something isn't decided until we are able to agree on it. Sometimes it's a couple days, sometimes weeks and sometimes we never agree and that decision is never made. We feel if we cannot agree on something, than that something isn't important enough and not something that we needed in our lives and we have never missed anything we couldn't agree on.

I hold no veto power over my wife, none what so ever, as she holds none over me.

We are very similar but if a decision needs to be made, and I am either not sure or we disagree(very rare) I will allow him to make that decision as I feel that is what I need to do to be obedient to God. Decisions are never left for ages unless neither of us is sure at that time what to do. My husband doesnt hold any power over me, its me giving it to him if the situation warrants it. 

At other times he will submit to what I think. For example, I have been feeling for months that God is leading us to move away, and that good and challenging changes are ahead. My husband didnt feel that we should or needed to move at all for a while, but now he has realised also that God is leading us to do this at some point in the near future. Sometimes God speaks to the wife first, and sometimes she is more sensitive to His leading.

"We are very similar but if a decision needs to be made, and I am either not sure or we disagree(very rare) I will allow him to make that decision as I feel that is what I need to do to be obedient to God."

To me, what you have just described is a Complimentary Marriage.  The clarifying statement is "...and I am either not sure or we disagree(very rare)...".

It is a fine line, I am so happy for you that "...or we disagree(very rare)...".

[justwonderingshusband]

Mutual Submission:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/mutual_submission.htm

Sounds like a Complimentary Marriage to me.

Semantics.

I barely glanced at the link and it is not mutual submission...especially when he still advocates that women are to obey their husbands. That is not mutual submission. What would make obedience mutual? Her obeying him but him also obeying her. What makes mutual submission is each submitting (having a humble attitude and service) to the other, but neither enforcing it.

There are a number of people on this thread that have made mutual submission very clear. You sound like a very intelligent person. Pick up a Greek Theological dictionary and do a study on it. It makes sense when you take it into Greek context, not various English translations.

You and I are one step away from each other, standing on opposite sides of the line.

I won't argue with you, but I would never be able to live with you either.

Who is right, and who is wrong?

[Red Baker]

Been married to the same beautiful woman for almost fifty years~the secret?  I just remind her once in a while: "Honey, be reasonable and do it my way!"

[justwonderingshusband]

Mutual Submission:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/mutual_submission.htm

Sounds like a Complimentary Marriage to me.

Semantics.

In my marriage if we cannot agree on something, that something isn't decided until we are able to agree on it. Sometimes it's a couple days, sometimes weeks and sometimes we never agree and that decision is never made. We feel if we cannot agree on something, than that something isn't important enough and not something that we needed in our lives and we have never missed anything we couldn't agree on.

I hold no veto power over my wife, none what so ever, as she holds none over me.

We are very similar but if a decision needs to be made, and I am either not sure or we disagree(very rare) I will allow him to make that decision as I feel that is what I need to do to be obedient to God. Decisions are never left for ages unless neither of us is sure at that time what to do. My husband doesnt hold any power over me, its me giving it to him if the situation warrants it. 

At other times he will submit to what I think. For example, I have been feeling for months that God is leading us to move away, and that good and challenging changes are ahead. My husband didnt feel that we should or needed to move at all for a while, but now he has realised also that God is leading us to do this at some point in the near future. Sometimes God speaks to the wife first, and sometimes she is more sensitive to His leading.

Also,   "...but now he has realised also that God is leading us to do this at some point in the near future. Sometimes God speaks to the wife first, and sometimes she is more sensitive to His leading."

That is fine, you feel "called" to "lead" your husband away from his initial "judgement".

1)  Why has he "submitted"?  What did you do, or not do?  If it was to calmly discuss, good.  If not, then what.  It is completely possible that you are both "listening".

2)  He is open to your "discernment".  But what if you both agree "after the fact" that you were "mistaken"?  Not "I told you so", just I'm sorry.

3)  How will that play into future decisions?

4)  If you were wrong, will you understand why?  Not a problem, learning to understand ourselves by understanding out mistakes is part of growing, both as people and as Christians.

5)  You may be right.

I am not always right, but I do find that I make fewer mistakes when I am respected.  Not second guessed, or "grilled".  If I am Loved, even better.

[chosenone]

Mutual Submission:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/mutual_submission.htm

Sounds like a Complimentary Marriage to me.

Semantics.

In my marriage if we cannot agree on something, that something isn't decided until we are able to agree on it. Sometimes it's a couple days, sometimes weeks and sometimes we never agree and that decision is never made. We feel if we cannot agree on something, than that something isn't important enough and not something that we needed in our lives and we have never missed anything we couldn't agree on.

I hold no veto power over my wife, none what so ever, as she holds none over me.

We are very similar but if a decision needs to be made, and I am either not sure or we disagree(very rare) I will allow him to make that decision as I feel that is what I need to do to be obedient to God. Decisions are never left for ages unless neither of us is sure at that time what to do. My husband doesnt hold any power over me, its me giving it to him if the situation warrants it. 

At other times he will submit to what I think. For example, I have been feeling for months that God is leading us to move away, and that good and challenging changes are ahead. My husband didnt feel that we should or needed to move at all for a while, but now he has realised also that God is leading us to do this at some point in the near future. Sometimes God speaks to the wife first, and sometimes she is more sensitive to His leading.

Also,   "...but now he has realised also that God is leading us to do this at some point in the near future. Sometimes God speaks to the wife first, and sometimes she is more sensitive to His leading."

That is fine, you feel "called" to "lead" your husband away from his initial "judgement".

1)  Why has he "submitted"?  What did you do, or not do?  If it was to calmly discuss, good.  If not, then what.  It is completely possible that you are both "listening".

2)  He is open to your "discernment".  But what if you both agree "after the fact" that you were "mistaken"?  Not "I told you so", just I'm sorry.

3)  How will that play into future decisions?

4)  If you were wrong, will you understand why?  Not a problem, learning to understand ourselves by understanding out mistakes is part of growing, both as people and as Christians.

5)  You may be right.

I am not always right, but I do find that I make fewer mistakes when I am respected.  Not second guessed, or "grilled".  If I am Loved, even better.

It wasnt his initial judgement as such,  it was that at that time he had felt no leading to move, but he has no problem with God speaking and leading through me at times. He is very secure in Himself, very open to what I have to say and any words that God gives to me. He does make me feel valued and important and I am never made to feel 'less than' .
We wont move unless we are both 100% sure that its Gods will, and God has to do quite a lot for us to be able to move, so in that sense the ball is in Gods court anyway.

[justwonderingshusband]

Been married to the same beautiful woman for almost fifty years~the secret?  I just remind her once in a while: "Honey, be reasonable and do it my way!"

Thanks for the advice.  My wife wrote this to me a couple of weeks ago:

"I was thinking back on what kind of set me off the other day, and it was the comment you made about the your 50/50 before getting married and then you get the final say.  I hope your smart enough not  to throw that out there again and try to demand some kind of biblical rights because that would only have the exact opposite effect of what your trying to achieve.  Please do not do that again"

So,......should I follow your advice?

Not being difficult, just careful.

[Pfc Hall]

I visit GCM once or twice a day.  Usually with coffee in the morning, I think to myself, "I wonder what is going on over at GCM?"  It doesn't take ten seconds to see that it is the same ol' same ol'. 

This topic has moved so far off track.  And the question of what does God want? has been placed aside in favor of this works for me and my spouse. 

The unholy spirit that is demanding center stage in this thread suggests that the bulk of the posters are not looking at the holy bible as God's final and authoritative policy for mankind. 

[chosenone]

Been married to the same beautiful woman for almost fifty years~the secret?  I just remind her once in a while: "Honey, be reasonable and do it my way!"

Thanks for the advice.  My wife wrote this to me a couple of weeks ago:

"I was thinking back on what kind of set me off the other day, and it was the comment you made about the your 50/50 before getting married and then you get the final say.  I hope your smart enough not  to throw that out there again and try to demand some kind of biblical rights because that would only have the exact opposite effect of what your trying to achieve.  Please do not do that again"

So,......should I follow your advice?

Not being difficult, just careful.

Using Bible verses to 'demand' anything will never work. You do your part and leave her to do hers.

[Janice]

Mutual Submission:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Mens%20Page/mutual_submission.htm

Sounds like a Complimentary Marriage to me.

Semantics.

I barely glanced at the link and it is not mutual submission...especially when he still advocates that women are to obey their husbands. That is not mutual submission. What would make obedience mutual? Her obeying him but him also obeying her. What makes mutual submission is each submitting (having a humble attitude and service) to the other, but neither enforcing it.

There are a number of people on this thread that have made mutual submission very clear. You sound like a very intelligent person. Pick up a Greek Theological dictionary and do a study on it. It makes sense when you take it into Greek context, not various English translations.

You and I are one step away from each other, standing on opposite sides of the line.

I won't argue with you, but I would never be able to live with you either.

Who is right, and who is wrong?

It does not matter where we stand with respect to each other. It matters where we stand with respect to God's expectation. I'm saying study the subject. Challenge your beliefs. That is what God expects, for us to challenge our beliefs and interpretations, being teachable to the truth. Study it and learn about it for yourself. I did.

In your marriage, there is a lot of damage done already, so finding a new point to start over will be hard. By starting over I mean earning her respect. But as the husband it is your responsibility to initiate (just as Jesus initiated the relationship with the church). How can you earn your wife's respect? By being collaborative about decisions, picking your arguments carefully, by being selfless, by serving her and caring for her best interest above your own.  even though there may be a personal cost to it. It means respecting her, honouring her, blessing her, and giving her the space and freedom to make her own choices. This will take a lot of hard work and a lot of time. Respect builds over time.

I would offer similar advice to your wife (since I believe in mutuality). To the wife: When you first became a believer, you responded to Jesus' invitation to be reconciled with the Father. You responded to his love with love of your own, and likely wanted nothing more than to serve him and worship him and do his will because of his great love for you. Likewise, respond to your husband when he is loving you selflessly and sacrificially. The church loves God by serving him, by doing his will, by honouring him, by dying to self to become more like him (sacrificial love). So when your husband loves you with godly love by loving like Jesus loves, respond to him the same way that the church responds to Jesus.

What about when he fails to love? Be the one to influence him by loving him the way that Jesus loves you. Be gentle when you influence restoration. Marriage is supposed to be a safe place to learn to love your spouse. It is a process, and both of you will fail to love sometimes. But again, what does God do when we fail to love him? He provided a way of reconciliation. Jesus. So again, we emulate Jesus by initiating reconciliation, and I don't just mean a half-hearted apology. What was the condition of your heart when you accepted Jesus the first time? You were likely so broken hearted that you had hurt God by sinning against him that you wept genuine tears of repentance. We need to be genuine in our own repentance. It should hurt us that we have hurt our spouse. That is godly sorrow that leads to repentance. And when your spouse comes to you with that godly sorrow, it is imperative to extend grace and mercy.

From what you have both said in this thread, you both have hard hearts towards one another, possibly even contempt. Soften your hearts to each other - have mercy and grace, extend forgiveness and ask forgiveness. Be specific about your sins against each other. Make sure they are sins you confess. It is impossible to care for one another when there is hardness of heart, and care is half of the commitment equation.

Be willing to take responsibility for your stuff. JWH, it sounds like you are able to do this for the most part, but I would even challenge you a little further by reiterating my opening challenge. Learn what it means to be a husband who loves like Jesus loves. Check out the Promise Keepers. Good stuff.

All the best to you both.

[Pfc Hall]

I tried replying to this last night but got a message about the link being changed?