Is Saturday Sabbath Observance Essential?

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

The Law is not abrogated on the cross. Jesus Christ and the Law are one and have always been one; they cannot be divided. Unless Christ and the Law as one were resurrected then only part of Christ was resurrected; you want to slice Christ in half and through half away, why? If you reject half of Christ, you reject whole; you redefine Him as having no power to judge and His new name is, "Truck load of grace."

<<Jesus Christ and the Law are one and have always been one>>
Jesus Christ and the Law engraven in stones are NOT one and have NEVER been, one ---except in plain speech, IN GOD'S WORD IN PERSON, "CHRIST CRUCIFIED".
I believe and I teach this for many years now, that Christ is God's Law, not God's Law, Christ. Which is the problem with most Sabbatharians, who make of the Sabbath and Fourth Commandment their god and saviour.
I have believed and have been teaching for many years – yea, for by far most of my life, Unless Christ and the Law AS ONE was crucified Christ was not resurrected.  Unless Christ and the Law as ONE—Christ Jesus—was resurrected, Christ was not resurrected and God's Law is dead.

Now who here is the one who actually wants to <<slice Christ in half and through half away>>? And why?!
Christ is my Law by the grace of God else I had no Law ever.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

You cannot repute the above words of God, try as you may.

Please -- I call on Christ the True Witness between us -- I do not nor try to <<repute the above words of God>>.
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[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

I want to tell you today, like Paul says Jesus' followers are a written testimonial of Him, SO—nay, infinitely more perfect—IS CHRIST OF GOD AND OF HIS CHARACTER THE WRITTEN AND ALIVE TESTIMONIAL AND LAW.

The Law engraven in stones NEVER WAS IT ---NEVER WAS HE!
... AND, listen, never was MEANT TO BE!

[Amo]

I want to tell you today, like Paul says Jesus' followers are a written testimonial of Him, SO—nay, infinitely more perfect—IS CHRIST OF GOD AND OF HIS CHARACTER THE WRITTEN AND ALIVE TESTIMONIAL AND LAW.

The Law engraven in stones NEVER WAS IT ---NEVER WAS HE!
... AND, listen, never was MEANT TO BE!

You are going way to far my friend. Do you really understand the implications of what you are saying? That God made a mistake, and therefore had to produce the law as a result of that mistake, which should never have been. Where were you when Lucifer rebelled in heaven. Where were you when the Father and Son decided to create this world, knowing that Lucifer would come here and tempt humanity, and they would fall? Where were you when the plan of salvation was worked out by them endless ages ago? When it was decided That Christ would live and die for humanity because they had disobeyed God? When God knew ions before it ever happened, that He would descend upon the mountain and speak His law to humanity, and then write it in tables of stone with His own finger, twice?

If only you were there to straighten God out, perhaps none of this would have happened, and the law of God would never have been spoken or written. Do not fool yourself my friend. Nothing has happened that God did not anticipate, allow for, or bring about Himself. This includes all things, the giving of the law of God not just included, but predetermined and planned. You are bordering upon blasphemy to suggest that the law of God was never intended to be, no you are blaspheming. You do not know better than God, and He did not make any mistake.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Col 3:11  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Eph 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

1Cor 15:20 ¶  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Nothing has escaped God's notice, deviated from His plans, or happened that He did not allow and plan for. In the end, all will acknowledge His manifold wisdom, brightness, purity, holiness, justification, and righteousness in all that He has allowed for, and made provision for in and through His precious Son and our Lord Jesus Christ. Get a grip man, God did not make a mistake. He always intended to speak and write His law to humanity. Wake up! Will you continue to accuse God of making a mistake, and doing that which He actually never intended?

[johnm]

<<<
<<Jesus Christ and the Law are one and have always been one>>
Jesus Christ and the Law engraven in stones are NOT one and have NEVER been, one ---except in plain speech, IN GOD'S WORD IN PERSON, "CHRIST CRUCIFIED".
I believe and I teach this for many years now, that Christ is God's Law, not God's Law, Christ. Which is the problem with most Sabbatharians, who make of the Sabbath and Fourth Commandment their god and saviour.
I have believed and have been teaching for many years – yea, for by far most of my life, Unless Christ and the Law AS ONE was crucified Christ was not resurrected.  Unless Christ and the Law as ONE—Christ Jesus—was resurrected, Christ was not resurrected and God's Law is dead.
<<<
<<Jesus Christ and the Law are one and have always been one>>
Jesus Christ and the Law engraven in stones are NOT one and have NEVER been, one ---except in plain speech, IN GOD'S WORD IN PERSON, "CHRIST CRUCIFIED".
I believe and I teach this for many years now, that Christ is God's Law, not God's Law, Christ. Which is the problem with most Sabbatharians, who make of the Sabbath and Fourth Commandment their god and saviour.
I have believed and have been teaching for many years – yea, for by far most of my life, Unless Christ and the Law AS ONE was crucified Christ was not resurrected.  Unless Christ and the Law as ONE—Christ Jesus—was resurrected, Christ was not resurrected and God's Law is dead.

Now who here is the one who actually wants to <<slice Christ in half and through half away>>? And why?!
Christ is my Law by the grace of God else I had no Law ever.>>>

I don't doubt your sincerity but there is a problem; English may not be your first language. I have a simple view; you have a complex view riddled with theology (that I know nothing about and wouldn't touch if I did) but seemingly not Biblical. We have a lot of stamping of feet and little communication.

You have said earlier that the Law is abrogated (taking the Catholic lead), now you say Christ is your Law by the grace of God. How does the Law abrogated differ to your Law by the grace of God?

There will be some who will try to earn the salvation by keeping the Law but I would expect these to be few in number, yet those who find the narrow road called common sense and faith, will be even fewer in number; those who chose the broad road called "disobedience by grace" will be many.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

I don't doubt your sincerity but there is a problem; English may not be your first language. I have a simple view; you have a complex view riddled with theology (that I know nothing about and wouldn't touch if I did) but seemingly not Biblical. We have a lot of stamping of feet and little communication.

You have said earlier that the Law is abrogated (taking the Catholic lead), now you say Christ is your Law by the grace of God. How does the Law abrogated differ to your Law by the grace of God?

There will be some who will try to earn the salvation by keeping the Law but I would expect these to be few in number, yet those who find the narrow road called common sense and faith, will be even fewer in number; those who chose the broad road called "disobedience by grace" will be many.

I have not posted to argue or theologise. I posted to CONFESS. Confess I will by the grace of God till the day I die, so help me God

You see I close with, "So help me God" without a full stop. It means I close my confession with my prayer.
I don't think my faith could be simpler or clearer than that it is my faith in "The Faith of Jesus" confessed and offered in prayer. Let's call it now, 'my, theology' if you will.

Only one modest request, Please do not define my faith or theology or 'teaching' or whatever, FOR ME?

To start with, I DO NOT, believe in <<"disobedience by grace">>.
Next, I obviously have <<little communication>> with you. Yet you have looong and deriding comments on 'my' <<complex view riddled with theology>>, that you <<know nothing about>> and yet <if you did>, <<wouldn't touch>>, and already have finally decided is <<<seemingly not Biblical>>>.

Now that, quite objectively, is from a <sincere> and <<simple view>> perspective. 

Hey! Much appreciated, chum.

Re:
<<<You have said earlier that the Law is abrogated (taking the Catholic lead), now you say Christ is your Law by the grace of God. How does the Law abrogated differ to your Law by the grace of God?>>>
----A polite request deserves an honest and full reply: To make it full: It is not 'my' Law I will answer about; but the Law of God. Therefore,
<<How does GOD'S Law abrogated differ to GOD'S Law by the grace of God?>>
My answer:
Taking the Gospel lead, The Law is abrogated // "nailed to the cross" // "broken down" // "DESTROYED" // "taken out of the way" // "thrown in the depths of the sea" // "buried" // "forgotten", even Jesus Christ by the grace of God The Law of God.

How does God's Law Abrogated differ to God's Law by the Grace of God? The first was CRUCIFIED, DIED AND WAS BURIED; the second "GOD RAISED FROM THE DEAD: LORD AND CHRIST".

Post script
.... as a Gospel lead ....
That is how I came to a knowledge of the "Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" "my Lord and My God". Not through the Law engraven on stones.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

I want to tell you today, like Paul says Jesus' followers are a written testimonial of Him, SO—nay, infinitely more perfect—IS CHRIST OF GOD AND OF HIS CHARACTER THE WRITTEN AND ALIVE TESTIMONIAL AND LAW.

The Law engraven in stones NEVER WAS IT ---NEVER WAS HE!
... AND, listen, never was MEANT TO BE!

You are going way to far my friend. Do you really understand the implications of what you are saying? That God made a mistake, and therefore had to produce the law as a result of that mistake, which should never have been. Where were you when Lucifer rebelled in heaven. Where were you when the Father and Son decided to create this world, knowing that Lucifer would come here and tempt humanity, and they would fall? Where were you when the plan of salvation was worked out by them endless ages ago? When it was decided That Christ would live and die for humanity because they had disobeyed God? When God knew ions before it ever happened, that He would descend upon the mountain and speak His law to humanity, and then write it in tables of stone with His own finger, twice?

If only you were there to straighten God out, perhaps none of this would have happened, and the law of God would never have been spoken or written. Do not fool yourself my friend. Nothing has happened that God did not anticipate, allow for, or bring about Himself. This includes all things, the giving of the law of God not just included, but predetermined and planned. You are bordering upon blasphemy to suggest that the law of God was never intended to be, no you are blaspheming. You do not know better than God, and He did not make any mistake.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Col 3:11  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Eph 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

1Cor 15:20 ¶  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Nothing has escaped God's notice, deviated from His plans, or happened that He did not allow and plan for. In the end, all will acknowledge His manifold wisdom, brightness, purity, holiness, justification, and righteousness in all that He has allowed for, and made provision for in and through His precious Son and our Lord Jesus Christ. Get a grip man, God did not make a mistake. He always intended to speak and write His law to humanity. Wake up! Will you continue to accuse God of making a mistake, and doing that which He actually never intended?

Hey, whom are you talking to? I have no idea what you are talking about, or to whom you know? 

Why you put my post before all this?

[johnm]

<<I have not posted to argue or theologise. I posted to CONFESS. Confess I will by the grace of God till the day I die, so help me God.>>

The idea is that you use Biblical poof that the Law/covenant is abrogated; in the absence of this I have to conclude that you are confessing doctrine of men; so help both of us God.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

<<I have not posted to argue or theologise. I posted to CONFESS. Confess I will by the grace of God till the day I die, so help me God.>>

The idea is that you use Biblical poof that the Law/covenant is abrogated; in the absence of this I have to conclude that you are confessing doctrine of men; so help both of us God.

I replied to Amo.

But seeing you agree with him, you too say <<the Law/covenant>> was not abrogated?

Only one Proof: "We see Jesus" and "Him with wicked hands crucified" --- whom "God raised from the dead CHRIST AND LORD".

There's the ONLY Proof --- the identical only Proof WHICH "God RAISED FROM THE DEAD" : The <Law Covenant> "THE LAW GIVEN THAT COULD HAVE GIVEN LIFE" were He but recognised for such,  and "verily righteousness (w)ould have been by ... HIM!"

[Amo]

I want to tell you today, like Paul says Jesus' followers are a written testimonial of Him, SO—nay, infinitely more perfect—IS CHRIST OF GOD AND OF HIS CHARACTER THE WRITTEN AND ALIVE TESTIMONIAL AND LAW.

The Law engraven in stones NEVER WAS IT ---NEVER WAS HE!
... AND, listen, never was MEANT TO BE!

You are going way to far my friend. Do you really understand the implications of what you are saying? That God made a mistake, and therefore had to produce the law as a result of that mistake, which should never have been. Where were you when Lucifer rebelled in heaven. Where were you when the Father and Son decided to create this world, knowing that Lucifer would come here and tempt humanity, and they would fall? Where were you when the plan of salvation was worked out by them endless ages ago? When it was decided That Christ would live and die for humanity because they had disobeyed God? When God knew ions before it ever happened, that He would descend upon the mountain and speak His law to humanity, and then write it in tables of stone with His own finger, twice?

If only you were there to straighten God out, perhaps none of this would have happened, and the law of God would never have been spoken or written. Do not fool yourself my friend. Nothing has happened that God did not anticipate, allow for, or bring about Himself. This includes all things, the giving of the law of God not just included, but predetermined and planned. You are bordering upon blasphemy to suggest that the law of God was never intended to be, no you are blaspheming. You do not know better than God, and He did not make any mistake.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Col 3:11  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Eph 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

1Cor 15:20 ¶  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Nothing has escaped God's notice, deviated from His plans, or happened that He did not allow and plan for. In the end, all will acknowledge His manifold wisdom, brightness, purity, holiness, justification, and righteousness in all that He has allowed for, and made provision for in and through His precious Son and our Lord Jesus Christ. Get a grip man, God did not make a mistake. He always intended to speak and write His law to humanity. Wake up! Will you continue to accuse God of making a mistake, and doing that which He actually never intended?

Hey, whom are you talking to? I have no idea what you are talking about, or to whom you know? 

Why you put my post before all this?

I was responding to your assertion that  - "The Law engraven in stones NEVER WAS IT ---NEVER WAS HE! ... AND, listen, never was MEANT TO BE!" You are wrong. Perhaps you meant if sin never happened it was never meant to be. Still, this is wrong. Sin did happen, and God did know it would happen. It id not surprise Him, nor did He make any mistakes in dealing with it. Not therefore was the law spoken by God;s mouth and written with His own finger a mistake, or something never meant to be. You go to far with such a statement. This was my point.

[DaveW]

I was responding to your assertion that  - "The Law engraven in stones NEVER WAS IT ---NEVER WAS HE! ... AND, listen, never was MEANT TO BE!" You are wrong.

Amo - I am going to have to go with Gerhard on this one. But perhaps not as he meant it.

It was clear that God wanted His people to hear His voice and respond to it. It was not until AFTER the people told Moses to ask God to speak to him only, so they could not hear Him for themselves, that God started engraving his commands on stone and telling Moses to write down all those regulations and statutes.

So IMO the reason the Law had to be written down is that people did not want to listen to His voice. You should do a bible study sometime on the effects of hearing His voice.  It engenders fear of heaven and fear of sin in the hearer. Those are HUGE support systems to obedience.

[Amo]

I was responding to your assertion that  - "The Law engraven in stones NEVER WAS IT ---NEVER WAS HE! ... AND, listen, never was MEANT TO BE!" You are wrong.

Amo - I am going to have to go with Gerhard on this one. But perhaps not as he meant it.

It was clear that God wanted His people to hear His voice and respond to it. It was not until AFTER the people told Moses to ask God to speak to him only, so they could not hear Him for themselves, that God started engraving his commands on stone and telling Moses to write down all those regulations and statutes.

So IMO the reason the Law had to be written down is that people did not want to listen to His voice. You should do a bible study sometime on the effects of hearing His voice.  It engenders fear of heaven and fear of sin in the hearer. Those are HUGE support systems to obedience.

I don't know what happened to my last post, the last sentence or two seem to have been jumbled. They don't make much sense.

Again, even if you were correct, which I do not believe you are, will you also say that God did not anticipate this? Did this catch Him by surprise? Did He make a mistake, thinking He would be able to simply speak all such to Israel, but ending up having to write such because of their fear?

Of course the undoing of your argument is in the fact that God wrote the ten commandments in stone twice, after He had already spoken it by mouth to the entire nation. If He never planned to write any of it allowing that He could speak it, then He need not have written the ten commandments in stone once, let alone twice, for He had already spoken it in the most awesome manner possible. No Dave, God was not caught by surprise, He did not make a mistake, and He did not have to use plan B, because plan A did not work out as expected.

You of all people should understand the significance of the ten commandments written in stone with the finger of God being placed in the ark of the covenant, the very mercy seat and throne of God in this world during the old covenant. Where the blood of the sacrifice could be applied as atonement for the broken law of God. What, do you think God came up with this idea after the mistake of writing the commandments in stone, then adjusting all His plans concerning the sanctuary and it's services accordingly. Do you not understand that the gospel was preached to Israel through the sanctuary and it's services?

Have you seriously considered the implications of what you are saying? How very much of the bible and the gospel would now be a result of this mistake made by God, requiring countless adjustments in the bible from that time forward, and thus gospel message itself given to the world? Is that really how you think this all played out?

Mt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Mt 25:31 ¶  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Eph 1:2  Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

No my friend, God did not make any mistakes, nor was He ever caught off guard or surprised. He knows and is the beginning and the end, and He always intended to speak and write His law for humanity.

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty............................................................................................
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[DaveW]

Yes God anticipated it - even as he anticipated the Fall in Genesis.  That did not stop Him from creating man or from trying to verbally communicate to His people.  And yes - a LOT of the history of God and mankind would be different had they responded differently.

Did you read the email from the UMJC I posted in the Theo thread on the Golden Calf (that required the 2nd set of stone tablets)?

God does not make mistakes.  But he DOES sometimes do something to try us that He knows will fail. But His response is often one of kindness and forgiveness.

[Amo]

Yes God anticipated it - even as he anticipated the Fall in Genesis.  That did not stop Him from creating man or from trying to verbally communicate to His people.  And yes - a LOT of the history of God and mankind would be different had they responded differently.

Did you read the email from the UMJC I posted in the Theo thread on the Golden Calf (that required the 2nd set of stone tablets)?

God does not make mistakes.  But he DOES sometimes do something to try us that He knows will fail. But His response is often one of kindness and forgiveness.

You will have to give me a link to the  UMJC thing you are speaking of, I am not familiar with it.

I do not disagree with anything in particular posted above. My point still remains though, anyone who says God never intended to speak or write His law for Israel, goes to far. God does not make mistakes. Nothing that has has happened was a mistake, though not all of course has been approved of or supported in any way by God. The giving of the law, and the sacrificial system to humanity after the fall, was the giving of the gospel to the world before the first coming of Christ in the flesh. These things were established immediately after the fall, and reiterated to Israel once formed as the old covenant nation of God on earth. There was ans is no mistake about them.

[DaveW]

You will have to give me a link to the  UMJC thing you are speaking of, I am not familiar with it.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/umjc-weekly-torah-a-golden-calf-and-a-surprise-response/

[Amo]

Parashat Ki Tisa Ex. 30:11- 34:35
by Dr. Patrice Fischer
Congregation Ohr Chadash, Clearwater, FL


This week's portion is a pivotal section of the entire Torah: The people who have been liberated from Egypt and brought FischerCruisePic4ed75d2into the wilderness of Sinai finally prepare to formally meet and pledge their loyalty to their God.

Since Ex. 24:13, Moses has been communing with God at the top of Mt. Sinai. Aaron has been told to stay at the base of the mountain in order to watch over the people for the 40 days and nights of Moses' sojourn. The Lord's messages given to Moses on the summit have contained many specific instructions about setting up the infrastructure of the community, such as building the Tabernacle and preparing its furnishings. The priests, Aaron's family, are to be set apart to serve God, dressed in specially designed clothing, and instructed in their duties as worship leaders for the community.

Meanwhile, the people wait. To say that this time of waiting for Moses to return doesn't go well is an understatement. The community's catastrophic behavior begins before Moses brings the tablets, which God himself wrote, down off the mountain. The people, aided and abetted by none other than Aaron, have formed a golden calf and proceeded to sacrifice at an altar built at its base.

Should we, the readers, totally condemn them for this?

After all, this calf may very well have been presented as a complement to God by a group of people who had, until recently, been embedded in a different national religious system. In Egypt a golden calf was presented as a tribute to a prevalent Egyptian god named Apis. In nearby Canaan the calf might represent either El or Baal. Perhaps the people felt the calf was a good visual aid to focus their worship on the "new god" who was leading them now.

At any rate, when Moses descended Sinai he did not feel that the calf was a complement to the God of Jacob. Moses treated it as contemptible, after first smashing the instruction tablets God had provided for the people. Then Moses had the Levites go through the camp to kill the calf worshipers, while he climbed again up the mountain to ask the Lord for a replacement set of tablets.

Note that when Moses appears before the Lord on the top of the mountain for the second time, he immediately admits the people's sin and asks God for His forgiveness. Moses then says something remarkable after all that has occurred: "...if you will not forgive their sin, then blot me out of the book you have written" (Ex. 32:32). Although Moses really is not responsible for the people's failure in this instance (since he was on the mountain), he asks to take the punishment for sin anyway. In the next verse, God concurs that those who have sinned against God will indeed be blotted out from his book (v. 33), but Moses does not have to suffer this fate. In fact, God says to him, "Go! Lead the people to the place that I described to you, and my angel will go before you..." (v. 34).

Moses' willingness to share the fate deserved by his people is echoed in the New Covenant. In the beginning of a lengthy excursus, Rav Shaul [Apostle Paul] repeats Moses' plea to God in Romans 9:3, "For I could wish that I myself were cursed, and cut off from Messiah for the sake of my family, those of my own race, the people of Israel." Rather than see this statement as mere poetic fervor from Rav Shaul, it is more accurate to see this as a quote from another great leader within Israel who was pleading on behalf of his people—whether they deserved it or not.

After Moses goes up the mountain the second time, he stands before God again with two new blank tablets. God, rather than being angry at the previous incidents at the foot of the mountain, proclaims, "The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion, and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished..." (Ex. 34:6-8).

After all that has just happened in the camp of Israel, this is not exactly the response that we might expect. However, after Israel experienced God's forgiveness for the sins they had committed so recently, this is the God that they were just starting to understand as they continued to follow his cloud through their long journey southward through the desert.

It is this same God that deserves our loyalty and obedience, the same God that both Moses and Rav Shaul were happy to dedicate their lives to. May we keep in mind this week that we have the profound opportunity serve this God too!

Shabbat Shalom!

A problem with the above article, as I see it, is that it presumes a state of ignorance among the Jews, and those from Egypt that went with them. As is obvious, the Jews were never absorbed into Egyptian society. This is because they always maintained their identity and therefore distinctness from the Egyptians concerning not only religiosity but also livelihood. This was God's and therefore Israel's plan from the beginning. Thus Joseph immediately established the means of maintaining this distinctness upon their arrival, rather than beginning a process of acceptance and intermingling between the Jews and Egyptians.

Gen 46:28 ¶  And he sent Judah before him unto Joseph, to direct his face unto Goshen; and they came into the land of Goshen. 29  And Joseph made ready his chariot, and went up to meet Israel his father, to Goshen, and presented himself unto him; and he fell on his neck, and wept on his neck a good while. 30  And Israel said unto Joseph, Now let me die, since I have seen thy face, because thou art yet alive. 31  And Joseph said unto his brethren, and unto his father's house, I will go up, and shew Pharaoh, and say unto him, My brethren, and my father's house, which were in the land of Canaan, are come unto me; 32  And the men are shepherds, for their trade hath been to feed cattle; and they have brought their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have. 33  And it shall come to pass, when Pharaoh shall call you, and shall say, What is your occupation? 34  That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians.
47:1 ¶  Then Joseph came and told Pharaoh, and said, My father and my brethren, and their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have, are come out of the land of Canaan; and, behold, they are in the land of Goshen. 2  And he took some of his brethren, even five men, and presented them unto Pharaoh. 3  And Pharaoh said unto his brethren, What is your occupation? And they said unto Pharaoh, Thy servants are shepherds, both we, and also our fathers. 4  They said moreover unto Pharaoh, For to sojourn in the land are we come; for thy servants have no pasture for their flocks; for the famine is sore in the land of Canaan: now therefore, we pray thee, let thy servants dwell in the land of Goshen.

Choosing to immediately identify themselves to the Egyptians as those who are an abomination to them, reveals the obvious intention of remaining separate from their society and influence. It should be noted also, that the Egyptians were not ignorant at all of the God of the Hebrews. Joseph, who was second only to Pharaoh in the land was a Jew, and his God had not only delivered Egypt from famine, but them extremely wealthy and thus powerful in the process. They being the only ones more than abundantly prepared for the famine. Everyone came to them for subsistence at this time. Thus the God of the Hebrews greatly enriched and empowered Egypt through His servant Joseph. This is not to mention either, the knowledge of God already obtained by the Egyptians through their dealings with Abraham and Isaac as well (Gen 12:10-20, 26:6-11).

When Israel came and settled in Goshen, there is no reason to presume that he abandoned his faith or religious practices after doing so. To the contrary, having been delivered by God through Joseph his missing and presumably dead son, in such a striking manner would have naturally only increased his faith and devotion to his God. Thus likewise would it have been for all of Israel at this time and for quite some time to come. Let's not forget who Jacob, or Israel was, and who his father and grandfather were.

Gen 26:1 ¶  And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2  And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3  Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4  And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5  Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There is no good reason to presume that the Ten Commandments and sacrifices typifying Christ were not a part of the above. To the contrary, we know with certainty that the seventh day Sabbath was instituted at creation, and the sacrificial system was instituted immediately after the fall. It was Abraham and his descendants that perpetuated the knowledge and practice of the same in this world by faith. Thus were they privy to the direct guidance of God Himself in their journeys, despite their faults. God Himself leading them to Egypt to be nourished and increase greatly in number as a distinct people, being prepared for the greatest story of deliverance of a people by God Himself during the old covenant dispensation. All of this of course, typifying the much greater deliverance of all humanity through Christ if they would only care to believe and accept it.

None of this was by accident, nor was there ever a time when the level of ignorance suggested in the article under examination above, actually existed. The greatest level of ignorance no doubt existed while Israel awaited the deliverance predicted by Jacob, Israel himself, and Joseph at their deaths. Certainly not at the time the article suggests, after God's awesome deliverance of Israel under His direct leadership.

Gen 35:2  Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments: 3  And let us arise, and go up to Bethel; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went. 4  And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which were in their hand, and all their earrings which were in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the oak which was by Shechem. 5  And they journeyed: and the terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob. 6 ¶  So Jacob came to Luz, which is in the land of Canaan, that is, Bethel, he and all the people that were with him. 7  And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother.

Ex 12:3  Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 4  And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. 5  Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6  And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7  And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8  And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9  Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10  And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. 11  And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. 12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast;[size=14} and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment:[/size] I am the LORD. 13  And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. 14  And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever...................................................


14:26  And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen. 27  And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. 28  And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. 29  But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 30  Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore. 31  And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.
15:1 ¶ Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2  The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. 3  The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. 4  Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. 5  The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone. 6  Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. 7  And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble. 8  And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea. 9  The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them. 10  Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters. 11  Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? 12  Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them. 13  Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation. 14  The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. 15  Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away. 16  Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased. 17  Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established. 18  The LORD shall reign for ever and ever. 19  For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea. 20  And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances. 21  And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea..................................................................................................................

18:8  And Moses told his father in law all that the LORD had done unto Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel's sake, and all the travail that had come upon them by the way, and how the LORD delivered them. 9  And Jethro rejoiced for all the goodness which the LORD had done to Israel, whom he had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians. 10  And Jethro said, Blessed be the LORD, who hath delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of Pharaoh, who hath delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians. 11  Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them. 12  And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God. 13 ¶  And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.

As is obvious from the above scriptural testimony, Israel knew before they entered Egypt that their God would have no other gods before Him. By the time Moses went up to the mount, this truth was firmly established in Israel. Thus the making of the idol while Moses was on the mount was a great sin in the eyes of God and Moses as well. It was a huge step backwards for Israel after such a mighty deliverance by the one and only true God. Thus also it justified such immediate and drastic measures. If such could be allowed so very soon after Israel's deliverance, directly addressing the issue of who really is God, and who is not, what hope would there be of ever perpetuating the truth in God to future generations. Which issue itself, the bible proves to be of major importance, and a very difficult one which requires constant diligence. Which unfortunately, humanity has repeatedly demonstrated, it is not capable of.

Praise God for His constant intercession. Without which there would be no fear or knowledge of Him or the salvation He has so graciously provided.

[Hobie]

One verse theology is not the way to go. If the Law was absolute the Bible would only need one page; if there was a list of what to do, God would have given us a second page in the Bible; but God has given us the whole Bible as the bread of life; we are required to use much of it and grow into something called fruit. We know that some will be the greatest in the kingdom and receive much reward and others will be the least in the kingdom because they have taught others to sin.

There is a bigger problem; there is the truth and the lie; the covenant of God and the covenant of Satan; the lie is that Satan's covenant is way off in the future; the truth is Satan's covenant has been with us for 2000 years.
When you look out there do you see two mountains separated by a huge gulf or do you see a level playing field where the two covenants are not discernible and could easily be deceived into thinking one was nailed to the cross and the other hidden in a strange place called the seventieth week way off in the future. If we engage with Satan we should expect to be deceived. If we engage only with God we have a chance. If we go with the Bible alone we will have to keep the Sabbath; the Pope has said. The Bible alone means no isms like Dispensationalism or Catholicism or any ism.

Sabbaths and feast days, two out of many things, but one God and one covenant, what I mean is these two are not the division between God and Satan.

We need the guidance of the Holy Spirit, can forget that...