The Trinity (@Insight)

[Swiss_Guard]

Okay Insight, let's see if you can prove your assertions about the Trinity, in the face of the evidence offered.

The Godhead - Father, Son and Holy Spirit

God exists in three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is called the doctrine of the Trinity. Although the word Trinity is not in the Bible, it expresses a scriptural truth; in fact, it was coined by one of the early Latin Christian writers to set forth the truth that God is a Tri-unity of Persons.
  The term Godhead (Godhood) refers to God's essence or divine Being; and is a proper statement of truth to say that there are three Persons in the Godhead.
  The Old Testament emphasizes the unity of God; that is, it asserts that there is but one God, in contrast to the many false gods of the heathen; nevertheless, there are intimations in the Old Testament of the fact that God exists in a plurality or Trinity of Persons. For example, the Spirit of God is mentioned in Genesis 1:2; the Son is mentioned in Psalm 2:7, 12; and there are plural expressions in a number of places which show that God is a Trinity.
  "And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26).    The New Testament, while fully recognizing the unity of God, emphasizes the fact of the three Persons.

Three Persons -- One God

The Bible presents to us a Father who is God (John 3:16), a Son who is God (Philippians 2:5-8; John 1:1), and a Holy Spirit who is God (Acts 5:3, 4); yet these are not three Gods, but one and the same God.
  It is difficult, if not impossible, to explain what the word Person means as applied to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We are accustomed to think of persons as individual human begins, and we know that three persons cannot be one being. The Persons of the Godhead are clearly distinguished from one another in many passages of Scripture; yet they cannot be separated. This truth is beyond complete understanding by our finite minds.
  No illustration of the Trinity will suffice to explain this relationship, but we can perhaps get some help by trying to express the relationship mathematically. Men would ordinarily say of the Persons: one plus one plus one equals three. But it would be more accurate to say: one times one times one equals one, for each of the Persons is fully God in the absolute sense, and the three together are the one self-same God.
  It is not possible for me to explain this truth fully, but it is necessary to know and to state clearly what the Bible actually says.
  Throughout the Scriptures the Gospel message is plain: God the Father sent His Son to redeem fallen man; The Son willingly came to die for the sins of the world; and the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, regenerates the heart by the Word of God which He inspired, takes the things of Christ, and shows them unto us who love Him (see John 16:12-15).
  Colossians 2:9 speaks very plainly: "In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

Further Bible proof of the Trinity

I have already alluded to some Bible proofs of the Trinity. One of these is the use of the plural in reference to God. In creating man, God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26). If there were only one Person in the Godhead, does it not seem unlikely that God would use the words "us" and "our" in this instance? Would He not have been more likely to say, "I will make man in my image"? (see also Genesis 3:22). Again, in Isaiah 6:8 God refers to Himself as "I" and "us", indicating both unity and plurality in the same Being.
  Another Bible proof of the Trinity which has already been mentioned is the fact that each of the Persons is individually called God.

  Some further proofs may be listed this way:

1. Comparison of Scripture with Scripture
The passage in Isaiah 6 mentioned previously is still more interesting and presents a stronger proof of the Trinity when compared with John 12:35-41 and Acts 28:25-27.
  In John 12:35, 35, Christ is speaking about Himself. Verse 37 tells us that the people to whom He spoke did not believe in Him, even through He had performed many miracles before them. Then in verses 38-40 John quotes Isaiah 53:1 and 6:10 (written about 700 years before Christ was born), stating that Isaiah had foretold that some people would not believe in Him. And John says plainly that the God whom Isaiah saw was the Lord Jesus: "Esaias . . . Saw his glory" (v. 41).
  In Acts 28:23 Paul was speaking to the people about Christ, but some of them did not believe in Him. In verses 25-27 Isaiah 6:8-10 is again referred to -- this time as the voice of the Holy Spirit (v. 25).
  So we see how this one passage from Isaiah, when compared with these two New Testament references, brings out the truth that there are three Persons in one God.

2. The Manifestation of the Trinity at the Baptism of Jesus
Let us turn now to Matthew 3:16, 17. Here we have a beautiful picture painted for us, as well as a proof text given. through we may forget every other Scripture evidence of the Trinity, it will not be easy to forget this if it is once imprinted upon our minds. There is the blessed Jesus, the second Person of the Trinity, standing in the water, having been baptized by John. And now, behold, the heavens open, and the Spirit of God, the third person of the Trinity, descends like a dove upon Jesus. But hearken! A voice is heard from heaven, the voice of the Father, the first Person of the Trinity, saying, "This is my beloved Son!" What clearer and better proof can we have than this that in the Godhead there are three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

3. Christ's Declaration regarding the Trinity in His Great Commission to His Disciples
"Go . . . teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost [Spirit]" (Matthew 28:19).
  If these three were not God, it would not seem right to give each the same dignity and honor. And if they were more than one God, would not Jesus have been likely to say "in the names" instead of only "in the name?"

4. Paul's Statement in the Apostolic Benediction
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all Amen" (II Corinthians 13:14).
  If these three Persons here mentioned were not equally God it would not seem right to give each of them the same importance. Indeed, would it not be an insult to the true God to do this?
  There are many other similar passages, but these are sufficient for my purpose here.

[Insight]

Okay Insight, let's see if you can prove your assertions about the Trinity, in the face of the evidence offered.

We certainly can start a discussion; however I will honour my chat with Lighthammer over this thread.

The Godhead - Father, Son and Holy Spirit

You are not off to a good start.

But I would have you know Swiss, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Cor 11:3

So in terms of the hierarchical administration we conclude that God alone is the Head.

2) metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent
a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife
b) of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church
c) of things: the corner stone

This definition is in keeping with the context of the passage.  Sadly as I read on a bit you fail to provide key verses to support your Godhead claims.

God exists in three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is called the doctrine of the Trinity. Although the word Trinity is not in the Bible,

I find it amusing how quickly this admission is stated early on in these discussions.  It's like say "I acknowledge the trinity and its formulated doctrines are manmade but...

[Swiss_Guard]

Okay Insight, let's see if you can prove your assertions about the Trinity, in the face of the evidence offered.

We certainly can start a discussion; however I will honour my chat with Lighthammer over this thread.

The Godhead - Father, Son and Holy Spirit

You are not off to a good start.

But I would have you know Swiss, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Cor 11:3

So in terms of the hierarchical administration we conclude that God alone is the Head.

2) metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent
a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife
b) of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church
c) of things: the corner stone

This definition is in keeping with the context of the passage.  Sadly as I read on a bit you fail to provide key verses to support your Godhead claims.

God exists in three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is called the doctrine of the Trinity. Although the word Trinity is not in the Bible,

I find it amusing how quickly this admission is stated early on in these discussions.  It's like say "I acknowledge the trinity and its formulated doctrines are manmade but...

[Insight]

I was short on time when I posted this, so I just cut-and-pasted this article from a
Christian website.

I can only suggest you study the Scriptures for yourself and reject anything and most things from the Internet.

Re-reading it now, I agree that it was rather clumsy. (That's what I get from borrowing from a Protestant website!)  

Do you know the best works came out of the reformation era?  I have gathered considerable works over the years and found these to be extremely precise in their substance.  They were able to reject the Trinity and its destructive influence to Truth which gave them a clarity not seen today.

Evidence of this is how many people here in this forum have reject truth wholesale.  My teachings are so foreign to them because they are not given in Trinitarian language.  If they are speaking English and I am speaking Chinese we will never come to one mind or one understanding.

I notice that in my rush I also forgot to post the link to the website I got it from.  http://www.montney.com/inspire/trinity.htm  Sorry about that. I hadn't had my coffee and my head wasn't on straight. ;) (I personally don't believe that the Trinity and its doctrines are manmade. I didn't realize the article said that.)

The website did not say this, I did.

Anyway, I'd like to see you try to explain this Scriptural quote from a non-Trinitarian viewpoint:  Matthew 28:19-20

New International Version (NIV)


19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

[Swiss_Guard]

I can only suggest you study the Scriptures for yourself and reject anything and most things from the Internet.

I usually do; but as I said, I just happened to be in a bit of a hurry that day.

Do you know the best works came out of the reformation era?  I have gathered considerable works over the years and found these to be extremely precise in their substance.

Forgive me, but what you consider "the best works" and what I consider "the best works" are likely two very different things.

Evidence of this is how many people here in this forum have reject truth wholesale.  My teachings are so foreign to them because they are not given in Trinitarian language.  If they are speaking English and I am speaking Chinese we will never come to one mind or one understanding.

Or maybe it's because your teachings are wrong.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in (or into) the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19

Firstly this baptism is into α name; and it is a baptism into one name not three names.  

Yes, One name---the name of the Trinity; three Persons in one God. It is impossible for us to understand, but it's true none the less.

Here is the answer: Matthew 28: he is the Father manifested in a Son, by the Holy Spirit (Power).

I really don't see how that verse proves your point---or anything. But as you've caught my interest, there's another question I'd like to put to you. The whole idea of the Trinity is three Persons in one God, right? Well, In my own reading of the Bible, I've come across a weird pattern of events in the life of Jesus Christ that all have one thing in common: the number three.


When Jesus was born, He was visited by the 3 wise men. As a boy, He was lost in the temple of Jerusalem for 3 days. When He was perscuted and condemned to death, He is thought to have been around 33 years old. (http://carm.org/questions/about-jesus/how-old-was-jesus-when-he-was-crucified) During His Passion, He hung on the Cross for 3 hours---until the 3rd hour. He Rose again after 3 days in the tomb.
What do you make of all this?

[Insight]

Yes, One name---the name of the Trinity; three Persons in one God. It is impossible for us to understand, but it's true none the less.

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you Swiss may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was NOT made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

Out of your own mouth and admission you have revealed unknowingly that you are yet to know the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Insight

[Swiss_Guard]

It is impossible for us to understand, but it's true none the less.

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you Swiss may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was NOT made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

Out of your own mouth and admission you have revealed unknowingly that you are yet to know the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Insight

What?

[101]

Greeting to all in the name of the Lord Jesus the Christ.
I'm new to this board, and this is a very interesting Topic by it's responses. I'm not saying that anyone is right or wrong, but maybe consider this. 

"The three dispensation, or administrations of God"

Foundation Scripture: Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD"

Teaching Scripture: 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all". keep this foundation scripture in mind, as you read thanks. especially verse 5.

I believe in only one Spirit/God, so lets start at the beginning. re-looking at Genesis 1:26 again. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth". From this verse, it seems like it is saying that there are two or more person of God, instead of one. Well lets look closer with the wisdom of God. But first I need you to go with me to Genesis the 5th chapter and verses 1 & 2. "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him. 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created". Did you see it, listen again, "In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him", see it, if not, the net bible, 5:1 This is the record of the family line of Adam. When God created humankind, he made them in the likeness of God.: 2 He created them male and female; when they were created, he blessed them and named them humankind".
If you would notice, in verses 1 and 2 of chapter 5, it said he, (GOD), created man, and he, (GOD),  created them male and female. He is singular, not plural. So seeing this lets go back to Genesis 1:26, and get the understanding. look at this verse real good, re-read it several times if need be. I did, and I saw something I never saw before. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth". See it, if not, here it is. Question, who is to have dominion over the earth, just ONLY the first man and first woman, NO. this was a generational thing until the end, not just for the first man and woman only, but for every generation of mankind to follow. We see that in 5:1 this is the generations, notice the, "s", on generations at the end of the word. Meaning more that just the first two man and woman, but generations to follow. now how do that tie into the dispensation of God, a dispensation is a time period, or period of times, (Generations), that God deals with a group of peoples. This is called administrations of God. again, 1Cor 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord". so in the first dispensation of time the Spirit, (without a natural body), as Creator and maker. made a man in his image that was to come, because his body, it was foreordained before the world was made. and in the second dispensation of time came the body/the flesh of God, John 1:1. and in the last dispensation of time, that natural body/flesh that the Spirit died from is now resurrect into the glorious body that he have now.

so we can clearly see that there is no conflict, between Genesis 1:26 & 27, (the us, and we), and Genesis 5:1 & 2, (HE).  in Genesis 1:26 & 27 God is reveling his first differences of administrations. The first administrations/or dispensation as Creator and maker, (Spirit). God is a Spirit, but man had a natural body. so the scripture is true, 1 Corinthians 15:46 "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual". for the natural body was first, then the spiritual body. which the Lord's body as the man Jesus was first natural, and then quicken unto to spiritual. which is the second administrations, or dispensation as Saviour & Redeemer, Isa 9:6 "Flesh/Child is born, (spirit/Son) is GIVEN, Supporting Scripture John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me". what was sent?,  flesh, the natural body of God, in the person of the man Jesus the Christ.  and the third administrations/or dispensation is comforter, (Holy Spirit)/sustainer. which is the resurrected, changed body of Jesus the Christ.  There you have it, one God/Spirit, in three differences of administrations, who worketh all in all.  A re-read of 1 Corinthians 12:4, 5, & 6. will open up the Godhead for us.
So as for as the trinity goes. Not three in one, but only one in three dispensation, or administrations, or period of time. He's Omniscient, he's planed this. Isaiah, said he's the Mighty,  God, (Spirit, Creator, Maker), and the almighty, (Father, in the Spiritual realm, Son, in the Earthly, or created realm). yes in the earthly realm because the first Adam lost all rights and power of this created  world. now Jesus/Spirit/God in Glorified flesh, is still Omnipotent, in that dispensational body), there is only ONE Spirit. he's the Father, and the Son when he was in the fleshly body. Title Son of God, (in Flesh, unglorified). title Father, (the same Spirit, without body/flesh). as in when Jesus was baptized. most say here is the trinity. voice from heaven, as a dove coming down, and the body of Jesus standing in the Jordan. is he not Omnipresent?. supportive scripture, Jer. 23:23 & 24 "Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD".  is not God/Spirit is in you, and at the same time in me, and in someone else in Dallas, New York, Atlanta?. how can one limited an all mighty God, to just one point in time, and space.  was not Jesus the eternal Spirit in the old testament without body, (flesh, bone, and blood)?. lets see this, supported by the Scripture, 1Pet 1:19 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you". Now, if Christ was manifested, at this time, then he was before his fleshly body. without blood, without bone, and without flesh. supporting scripture, 1Pet 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow". there he is, the Spirit, that's right the Spirit of Christ that was in them. them who?, the old testament prophets. and that same Spirit in the natural man Jesus.  see verse 10 of 1 Peter chapter 1. before he took on the flesh, the Blood, and the Bone, he is Spirit. now we can see it perfectly.
Heb 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (the word), whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds. This time/dispensation when He spoke to the fathers is distinguished from the time/dispensation in which He has spoken to us, by his son/the word, that manifested him, (the eternal Spirit). The time/dispensation in which He spake by the prophets, stands in contrast with the time in which He spake by His Son. And the time past is a dispensation, that is obviously distinguished from these last days, which we're in now.

Now lets bring out the total meaning. Operations" in verse 6, Workings.
G1755 energema (en-erg'-ay-mah) n.
1. an effect
[from G1754]
KJV: operation, working
Root(s): G1754
* For OPERATION See WORKING

"Working" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words )
[ 1,,G1753, energeia ]
(Eng., energy") is used (1) of the "power" of God, (a) in the resurrection of Christ, Eph 1:19; Col 2:12, RV, "working" (AV, "operation"); (b) in the call and enduement of Paul, Eph 3:7; Col 1:29; (c) in His retributive dealings in sending "a working of error" (AV, "strong delusion") upon those under the rule of the Man of Sin who receive not the love of the truth, but have pleasure in unrighteousness, 2Thess 2:11; (2) of the "power" of Christ (a) generally, Phil 3:21; (b) in the church, individually, Eph 4:16; (3) of the power of Satan in energizing the Man of Sin in his "parousia," 2Thess 2:9, "coming."

"what is wrought," the effect produced by No. 1, occurs in 1Cor 12:6, RV, "working" (AV, "operations"); 1Cor 12:10.

(The ISBE)
op-er-a'-shun (ma`ashe, "work"; energeia, energema, "energy"): Twice used in the Old Testament of God's creative work (Ps 28:4; Ps 28:5; Isa 5:12). The Holy Spirit's inworking and power are manifest in the bestowal of spiritual gifts on individuals and on the church (1Co 12:6 the King James Version), and in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, through which energy or operation of God those dead in sins are, through faith, raised to newness of life (Col 2:12 the King James Version).

In the dispensations of God, by the office of the Holy Spirit, we are in the Last dispensation of the Gospel to preach it by the Holy Spirit. Listen, Col 1:25 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (to what, fulfil, or to complete what?. The age, wow). 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily".

here plainly the apostle Paul tell us of the third differences of administrations, or the third dispensation, or to God's third/last Work to finish. Which is the Gospel to the world. and we're his helpers. how is this done?, through the office of the Holy Ghost, or his third dispensation. that is, he, (God/Holy Spirit), who John saw on the island on Patmos, not in heaven but on earth, Rev 1:12-16. it it he, who is creator and maker in Genesis 1:26 &27, have reveled his name, "Jesus", he is in that office today. He who came to his own, and his own knew him not. But who we know now, Jesus, his work, to administer/dispense, is through his body the church. his word in these last days was a mystery, but is now reveled by his apostles, whom he empower with his Spirit.

the three offices of God is at hand. Creator/Maker, of everything, Saviour/redeemer, of all mankind, now, King/High Priest, who is also mediator, (God in glorified flesh, yes King, to return), Psalms 132:11 "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne". this scripture clearly states the God as a man will sit on the throne of David.  as he was prince on earth, prince of peace, by his blood), and, now Returning King to all who believe, this is the same Spirit/God, identified as, "us", and the, "we", in Genesis 1:26 & 27. the same God/Spirit who created us, is the same God/Spirit who redeemed us, and it's the same God/Spirit who saves us. and now we're in the last dispensation of his Grace. this have been a mystery from the beginning of time. supported scripture, 1Tim 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory". but is displayed by his Holy Apostles. Here is that mystery explained. When God/Jesus/Spirit sent that flesh, (son of God), into the world, that's what saved us, to be the sacrifice/ransom to redeem us. this man/flesh, bones, and blood, is better known as God right hand. The manifestation of his power. supportive scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me". that's why Jesus the flesh and blood/Man is called the Arm of God. and by his Arm, his arm of flesh came salvation. Eph 3:1 "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power". Amen.

JESUS is GOD, All by Himself.



now to tie up some loose ends,
1John 5:6 "This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one".
here in these verses most Christians think that this verse support the trinity. I don't believe so. the scriptures states, "these three", not "they three", but these. "these" are titles, #1 in heaven, Father is a title, not a person, word is a title, not a person, Holy Spirit is a title, Listen, Holy describe what kind of Spirit. Holy describe the Spirit characteristics or character. "these", are not personalities, but, "these", are one witness. note humans are made up of water, blood, and spirit. "these" are one, a spirit in flesh, with blood, meaning A MAN, the image of God. for we are made in his image. and two, that image is manifested clearly in heaven, as the Father, (Spirit), the Word, (flesh), and no Blood, for it was the ransom. meaning a GLORIFIED MAN IN HEAVEN. the same, (Spirit in Genesis without glorified flesh). is the same Spirit in John 1:1 in unglorified flesh. and now that same Spirit as we have said, now Glorified.

Love and Peace
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