The Fallible Assumption of Mary

[Ladonia]

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

As Catholica said, "it came from the Church who has the power to bind and loose".  And I will add whose Head is Christ. 

So could it be possible that this regulation is wrong?

What do you mean by wrong?

Wrong - as in "contradicts scripture"?

Wrong - as in "inappropriate"?

Wrong - as in "not relevant to the modern world"?

wrong from the church to demand from a priest to be celebate, due to wrong interpretation of the scriptures.

Please explain how the scriptures have been interpreted incorrectly in your opinon.

Wrong to enforce celebacy. Even this Cathcolic cardinal admits that Jesus never commanded this.

1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Look, the Catholic Church allows people liberty, in this case the Cardinal is free to speak his mind on the issue. He is giving his own personal opinion, but yet the fact is he remains a celibate Catholic priest. It's all about trying to follow the personal example of Jesus Christ who remained unmarried. Is there anything wrong with this choice - I mean consecrating yourself totally  to God? Those that cannot follow this rule can freely be a member of some other Christian denomination that allows this practice.

[Ladonia]

Example: Is this regulation from the church or from the Holy Spirit?


Britain's most senior Catholic (Cardinal Keith O'Brien) has suggested Catholic priests should be able to marry and have children, saying the demand for celibacy was not of "divine origin".
In an interview with the BBC, he said there were some elements of Catholic teaching which were "basic dogmatic belief" – such as opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But the proscription against priest's marrying was not one of them.

"For example the celibacy of the clergy, whether priests should marry – Jesus didn't say that," O'Brien said. "There was a time when priests got married, and of course we know at the present time in some branches of the church – in some branches of the Catholic church – priests can get married, so that is obviously not of divine of origin and it could get discussed again."

As Catholica said, "it came from the Church who has the power to bind and loose".  And I will add whose Head is Christ. 

So could it be possible that this regulation is wrong?

What do you mean by wrong?

Wrong - as in "contradicts scripture"?

Wrong - as in "inappropriate"?

Wrong - as in "not relevant to the modern world"?

wrong from the church to demand from a priest to be celebate, due to wrong interpretation of the scriptures.

Lily,

Martin Luther himself believed most of what Catholics believe today about Mary.  The church has always had always held her in high regard.

She hasn't been so controversial in Christianity until recently. 

Please see that, for many, she is a wonderful example of a Christian woman. 
Try not to hold it against people who regard her in this way.

Regards,

Yes it was those new evangelical adherants who brought all the anti - Blessed (comes from the Bible) Mother stuff.

[Ladonia]

Simple, because Paul gave two choices, marry or be obstinate.

The Rcc gives this choice, but only to some priests and not to others. Why not extend the choice to all priests?

And the Church could allow married priests if it felt so inclined. But a question for you,  just what is your main problem against people totally consecrating themselves to God? Do you also have a problem with monasteries? Convents?

[winsome]

Maybe I have misunderstood, but if you are a RCC priest and you want to get married, you cannot be a priest anymore.
Am I mistaken?

No-one must take a vow of celibacy.

A man or woman has a choice to follow a particular calling from God. If a man chooses to become a priest in the Latin Rite then he chooses to forgo the option of marrying unless he leaves the priesthood (as some have done). He is not forced to become a priest and therefore is not forced to take a vow of celibacy. It is his choice. But some choices rule out others.

If a man or a woman chooses to follow a celibate life as a priest, monk or nun then the Church expects them to faithfully honour that choice and the promises that go with it.

If a man or a woman chooses to marry then the Church expects them to faithfully honour that choice and the promises that go with it.

[FireSword]

Simple, because Paul gave two choices, marry or be obstinate.

The Rcc gives this choice, but only to some priests and not to others. Why not extend the choice to all priests?

And the Church could allow married priests if it felt so inclined. But a question for you,  just what is your main problem against people totally consecrating themselves to God? Do you also have a problem with monasteries? Convents?

No problem at all, I value their dedication to prayer. This world does not value their work, but God rewards their prayers and dedication with riches in heaven.They are also rewarded in this life, by living a simple life of peace. This reminds me of a woman in the new testament, who daily served God in the temple night and day.

[.:Lily:.]

I was so confused what I should believe about Mary for a long time. It was always a question after another. Should we call her mother of God, mother of the lord, Mother of Jesus...etc? Was she sinless? Does she have other children? Why she was chosen? How was her life...? How many Marys are in the bible? etc...etc...  I even loved those Anglican rosaries and felt like I wanted to pray it. (I think it was Satan.) I never used it but I saw some Anglicans use it including my sister in law. I'm not sure why she does not call herself Anglo-Catholic because she is a very traditional pastor. I assume it has to do with the Catholic bible. 

Anyways, I studied the bible on this issue because I needed to sort this thing for myself lol!

What I REALLY found was nothing more than...... "assumptions. "

There is really very little about Mary in the bible. So it was not even my fault! And the bible was very clear about her position. [See: Mark 3:31-35 & Matthew 13:55 & Romans 3:23] It is nothing like what Catholics or some Anglicans claim. It has no basis in the bible. Therefore I no longer need to believe an assumption especially when the bible is clear about it. Catholics usually use some verses that are not about Mary and apply it to her. It is like digging in the bible to prove something "hidden" somewhere! I'm referring to [Ezekiel 44:2] you need someone to tell you about it then you make a decision to believe it. I'd never reach such a conclusion on my own if my sister in law did not tell me her (false) interpretation.

Just few days ago, I was talking to a Catholic lady at work and she was telling me "our" church is suffering and weak now. (She was talking about liberals and the Pope...etc... I'm not really into politics so I do not really know what she is talking about.) Anyways, she referred to Mary as "our mother" and she thinks Mary protects the Catholic Church now... I believe this came from a pagan religion. Sorry, not trying to be rude but it is somehow like making Mary and Jesus: The God and Goddess. If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

There is a lot in scripture about Mary if you look for it.

Mary is not a godess and the Catholic Church doesn't make her out to be one.

The Catholic Church does not take anything from pagan religions.

You have many misconceptions about the Catholic Church and Mary.

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

Yes, please present your proofs.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God. I chose to believe in the bible and lots of things started to make sense to me.

You say that you do not make her a Goddess. This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It will be a bad idea to compare Mary to demonic Goddess. I really do not feel like I want to do it here. however, It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess." It is really so many things in the Catholic rituals, traditions, and history.

Lily it is against the rules to Call Catholic satanic which is effectively what you are doing here.

You said:

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

And I asked you to provide such proofs.

Instead you have launched into an attack on my beliefs without any evidence for your claims.

I am reporting your post.

I did not call the Catholic Church satanic.... (I also do not believe that.)

I'm not sure why you accuse me of something I did not say?

I was talking about myself and what I used to believe about Mary. Go re-read what I said again. 

I only described why I was stuggling to find the truth about Mary.

Here is what I said again:

I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God.

[neophyte]

Fire Sword, and don't forget that the Catholic clergy continues the sanctifying work on earth as shown here,  "On behalf of Christ, therefore, we are acting as ambassadors, God, as it were, appealing through us " [ 2 Cor. 5:20 ] [ Luke 10:16 ]  the chief powers of the Catholic priest is to change bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus  [ the discourse found in John 6 ] and to forgive sins [ John 20:23 ] and to administer the Holy Sacrements [ Matt. 6:25-34 ]

[.:Lily:.]

And I asked you to provide such proofs.

Instead you have launched into an attack on my beliefs without any evidence for your claims.

I am reporting your post.

I was trying to be nice but not posting this here.

I'll give you just "few" because I'm busy now.

You asked for it!



Papal Magic: Occult Practices Within the Catholic Church



Investigation of the historic ties between the occult and the Catholic Church.

(194 pages- Download the PDF.)

http://www.serenitystreetnews.com/HERSTORY%20CRAMNOTES/5dterra%20NOTES%20AUDIO%20VIDEO/robin1440/Papal%20Magic%20-%20Occult%20Practices%20within%20the%20Catholic%20Church.pdf



-------------------


The Biblical, Catholic, and Occult View of Mary
by Dr. John Ankerberg, Dr. John Weldon


Among all the women in history, none have been more venerated than Mary, the mother of Jesus. However, this veneration can be almost exclusively attributed to the influence of the Catholic Church. For example, one of the most powerful men in the world today is Pope John Paul II. In his new book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, which has sold in the tens of millions of copies, he refers to his "total abandonment to Mary" and to having chosen the following slogan as the motto for his papacy, "Totus Tuus" ("I am completely yours, O Mary").1

But who is Mary, according to the Bible? Mary is the young virgin woman who was chosen by God to bear the Messiah into the world (Mt. 1:18-25; Lk. 1:27-32, 39-41). Although Mary was "greatly troubled" (Lk. 1:29) by the angel's announcement of her chosen role, she faithfully submitted to God's will: "May it be to me as you have said" (Lk. 1:38). Throughout her life, she was amazed at the privilege God had given her. When she visited Elizabeth and heard Elizabeth prophesy amazing things about her child, she said, "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Lk. 1:46–47). When Jesus was born and the shepherds worshipped Him and told of their angelic visitation (what the angels had told them about Jesus), "Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart" (Lk. 2:19). At Jesus' dedication in the temple, she was even more awed over the prophecies given about her child (Lk. 2:23).

Thus, the biblical portrait of Mary is of a godly woman who was, not surprisingly, often taken aback in her role as Jesus' mother. But was she in any way unique or different from the rest of the human race? According to the Bible, she was different only in her earthly role as Jesus' mother; otherwise, she had no special graces, powers, or abilities.

Although the Catholic Church has a billion followers and claims that it accepts biblical teaching, we find in Scripture just the opposite of what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was sinless, but Mary is clearly said to be a sinner like all of us (Lk. 1:47; Rom. 3:23). The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a perpetual virgin, but the Scripture teaches she had at least six other children (Mt. 13:55–56).

Although Jesus gave the appropriate respect to Mary as His mother, He never set her apart as the Catholic Church has. According to Rome, Mary has been more blessed by God than any other mortal. In the words of Pope Paul VI, citing Vatican II, "The place she occupies in the Church [is] 'the highest place and the closest to us after Jesus.'"2 But according to Luke 11:27–28, Jesus Himself denied Catholic views when He taught that those who obey God are actually far more blessed than Mary—than if they had given birth to the Messiah Himself: "As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, 'Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.' He replied, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.'"

Today, the Catholic Church views Mary as 1) Co-redemptrix, 2) Mediatrix, and 3) Queen of Heaven. As Co-redemptrix, she cooperates with Christ in the work of saving sinners. As Mediatrix of all graces, she now dispenses God's blessings and grace to the spiritually needy. As Queen of Heaven, she rules providentially with Christ, the King of Heaven. Thus, "There is one Mediator between Christ and men, the Holy Mother Mary. Mary is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to Jesus but by Mary."3 (Cf. 1 Tm. 2: 5–6)

As a result of such teaching, the Catholic Church logically teaches Mary's right to veneration by faithful Catholics. Because of her role in the economy of salvation, Mary is worthy of special adoration.

That Catholic theology places Mary very close to Christ Himself can be seen from the following chart:

Mary:

Mother of God

Sinless (immaculate conception)

Perpetual virgin

Ascended (assumed bodily into heaven)

Queen of heaven

Dispenser (Mediatrix)

Co-redemptrix in the salvation of man

------------

Jesus:

Son of God

Sinless

Born of a virgin

Ascended bodily into heaven

King of heaven

Dispenser of all redeeming grace to mankind

Redeemer and Savior of man


In light of this, it is difficult to deny the response of Protestants that Mary has been elevated from the status of a creature into, in Berkouwer's words, "the supernatural perfection of the life of God" or that "Mary's role is often delineated by Catholicism in a way that the gospels ascribe exclusively to Christ."4 In our book, Protestants and Catholics: Do They Now Agree? (1994 edition), we documented the Church's official position, citing numerous popes and official texts.

Consider a few excerpts: "Nothing according to the will of God comes to us except through Mary. . .nobody can approach Christ except through the Mother"; "With Jesus, Mary has redeemed the human race"; "[Mary] offered him [Jesus] on Golgotha to the eternal Father. . .for all the children of Adam."5 These statements from Pope Leo XIII, Pope Pius XI and Pope Pius XII were reiterated at Vatican II and by modern Catholic theologians. Vatican II declared, "Taken up to heaven, she did not lay aside this saving role, but by her manifold acts of intercession continued to win for us gifts of eternal salvation."6 In The Catholic Catechism we read, "Alongside her Son, Mary has become part of this plan [of salvation] by contributing her share to the justification of the human race, beginning with herself and extending to everyone ever justified."7

In essence, the Catholic Church's exaltation of Mary at the theological level has resulted in her worship at the grass-roots level. This is why Carson remarks, "The [historical] development of Mariology has been accompanied by an ever increasing tendency to accord Mary a worship that, in much popular devotion, is indistinguishable from that offered to God alone."8 Although the Catholic Church technically distinguishes latria (adoration due to God alone) from hyperdulia (special veneration given only to Mary), one can only wonder how such fine distinctions are to be maintained in actual Catholic practice when one is attempting to give hyperdulia to Mary but not latria? We agree with noted theologian R. C. Sproul who remarks, "I think, however, for all practical purposes, that I can say without fear of ever being proven wrong, that millions of Roman Catholic people in this world today worship Mary, and in doing so, believe that they are doing what the Church is telling them to do."9 The late noted expert on comparative religion, Dr. Walter Martin concluded, "This is indeed the elevation of a creature to Deity. . . ."10

As we documented in Protestants and Catholics: Do They Now Agree?, even Catholic authorities confess that there is no scriptural warrant for their unique teachings on Mary and that Catholic views are a result of the evolution of Church tradition and papal pronouncement.11

Unfortunately, however, there is also a logical connection between the Catholic Church's exaltation of Mary and the occult revelations from Marian apparitions throughout the world.

One simply cannot deny that Catholic Mariology approaches, and, in practice often constitutes, idolatry. We think such idolatry is a principal reason for the worldwide occult activity associated with official Catholic Mariology.

For example, around the world there are literally hundreds of sites of Marian apparitions encompassing thousands of messages from "Mary" given to Catholic believers. Revelations from "Mary" have occurred in almost all of the 50 states and dozens of countries. No one can deny the fact of these supernatural manifestations, whether they are personal visions, apparitions, materializations, or channeled revelations. Nor can one deny that the messages these revelations bring are opposed to the teachings of the Bible. In fact, they consistently conform to Catholic theology as we documented in our book.12

In the messages of these apparitions in general, leading Catholic Mariologist Father John Lozano affirms, "the devotion to the Immaculate Heart [Mary] appear as a means of salvation."13 In other words, devotion to Mary is taught as a way of salvation.

Thus, proof that these worldwide Marian apparitions could not come from the biblical Mary can be seen in the teachings the occult "Mary" gives. Mary not only presents herself as a savior,14 but Satan allegedly fears Mary "more than God Himself."15 The individual Catholic teachings that Mary has consistently supported in her apparitions and revelations include the necessity of penance, Marian devotion, belief in purgatory, participation in the Mass and the Rosary.16 But all of these are wrapped up in the Catholic doctrine of salvation by works and none of this is biblical as we have documented in Catholics and Protestants: Do They Now Agree? (1995 edition).

FOOTNOTES

1. Pope John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope (NY: Alfred A. Knopf, 1994), 213-215.

2. Pope Paul VI, Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary (Washington, DC: U.S. Catholic Conference, 1974), 20.

3. Cited from an official Catholic source in Walter Martin, The Roman Catholic Church in History (Livingston, NJ: Christian Research Institute, 1960), 49.

4. G. C. Berkouwer, The Conflict With Rome (Philadelphia, PA: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1958), 174; and The Second Vatican Council and the New Catholicism (1965), 239.

5. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford, IL: Tan, 1974), 213-214; R. C. Sproul, "The Virgin Mary" lecture transcript 5, 6, (on file) emphasis added.

6. Walter M. Abbot, ed., The Documents of Vatican II (NY: Guild Press, 1966), 91.

7. John Hardin, The Catholic Catechism: The Contemporary Catechism of the Teachings of the Catholic Church (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1975), 168-169.

8. H. M. Carson, Dawn or Twilight? A Study of Contemporary Roman Catholicism (Leicester, England: InterVarsity, 1976), 128.

9. R. C. Sproul, transcript, 12, emphasis added.

10. Martin, 59.

11. John Ankerberg, John Weldon, Protestants and Catholics: Do They Now Agree? (Chattanooga, TN: ATRI, 1994), 186.

12. John Ankerberg, John Weldon, (chapter 11).

13. In Thomas Petrisko, "The Significance of Fatima to Today's Apparitions," Our Lady Queen of Peace (Pittsburgh, PA: Pittsburgh Center for Peace), Winter 1993, 120.

14. John Ireland Gallery, Mary vs. Lucifer: The Apparitions of Our Lady (Milwaukee, WI: Bruce Publishing, 1960), 2, 105-107.

15. Ibid., 2.

16. Ankerberg and Weldon, 206-207.

source: http://www.jashow.org/Articles/roman-catholicism/RC0300W4.htm




----------------

Roman Catholic Church Pagan Pt 1

Roman Catholic Church Pagan Pt 2

Roman Catholic Church Pagan proofs.

-----------------

Comparing Catholicism and Hinduism :
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_pagan_Catholic_Hindu_religion

--------------

Question: "What is the origin of the Catholic Church?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html

----------

[winsome]

I was so confused what I should believe about Mary for a long time. It was always a question after another. Should we call her mother of God, mother of the lord, Mother of Jesus...etc? Was she sinless? Does she have other children? Why she was chosen? How was her life...? How many Marys are in the bible? etc...etc...  I even loved those Anglican rosaries and felt like I wanted to pray it. (I think it was Satan.) I never used it but I saw some Anglicans use it including my sister in law. I'm not sure why she does not call herself Anglo-Catholic because she is a very traditional pastor. I assume it has to do with the Catholic bible. 

Anyways, I studied the bible on this issue because I needed to sort this thing for myself lol!

What I REALLY found was nothing more than...... "assumptions. "

There is really very little about Mary in the bible. So it was not even my fault! And the bible was very clear about her position. [See: Mark 3:31-35 & Matthew 13:55 & Romans 3:23] It is nothing like what Catholics or some Anglicans claim. It has no basis in the bible. Therefore I no longer need to believe an assumption especially when the bible is clear about it. Catholics usually use some verses that are not about Mary and apply it to her. It is like digging in the bible to prove something "hidden" somewhere! I'm referring to [Ezekiel 44:2] you need someone to tell you about it then you make a decision to believe it. I'd never reach such a conclusion on my own if my sister in law did not tell me her (false) interpretation.

Just few days ago, I was talking to a Catholic lady at work and she was telling me "our" church is suffering and weak now. (She was talking about liberals and the Pope...etc... I'm not really into politics so I do not really know what she is talking about.) Anyways, she referred to Mary as "our mother" and she thinks Mary protects the Catholic Church now... I believe this came from a pagan religion. Sorry, not trying to be rude but it is somehow like making Mary and Jesus: The God and Goddess. If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

There is a lot in scripture about Mary if you look for it.

Mary is not a godess and the Catholic Church doesn't make her out to be one.

The Catholic Church does not take anything from pagan religions.

You have many misconceptions about the Catholic Church and Mary.

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

Yes, please present your proofs.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God. I chose to believe in the bible and lots of things started to make sense to me.

You say that you do not make her a Goddess. This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It will be a bad idea to compare Mary to demonic Goddess. I really do not feel like I want to do it here. however, It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess." It is really so many things in the Catholic rituals, traditions, and history.

Lily it is against the rules to Call Catholic satanic which is effectively what you are doing here.

You said:

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

And I asked you to provide such proofs.

Instead you have launched into an attack on my beliefs without any evidence for your claims.

I am reporting your post.

I did not call the Catholic Church satanic.... (I also do not believe that.)

I'm not sure why you accuse me of something I did not say?

I was talking about myself and what I used to believe about Mary. Go re-read what I said again. 

I only described why I was stuggling to find the truth about Mary.

Here is what I said again:

I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic.

This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess."

[.:Lily:.]

I was so confused what I should believe about Mary for a long time. It was always a question after another. Should we call her mother of God, mother of the lord, Mother of Jesus...etc? Was she sinless? Does she have other children? Why she was chosen? How was her life...? How many Marys are in the bible? etc...etc...  I even loved those Anglican rosaries and felt like I wanted to pray it. (I think it was Satan.) I never used it but I saw some Anglicans use it including my sister in law. I'm not sure why she does not call herself Anglo-Catholic because she is a very traditional pastor. I assume it has to do with the Catholic bible. 

Anyways, I studied the bible on this issue because I needed to sort this thing for myself lol!

What I REALLY found was nothing more than...... "assumptions. "

There is really very little about Mary in the bible. So it was not even my fault! And the bible was very clear about her position. [See: Mark 3:31-35 & Matthew 13:55 & Romans 3:23] It is nothing like what Catholics or some Anglicans claim. It has no basis in the bible. Therefore I no longer need to believe an assumption especially when the bible is clear about it. Catholics usually use some verses that are not about Mary and apply it to her. It is like digging in the bible to prove something "hidden" somewhere! I'm referring to [Ezekiel 44:2] you need someone to tell you about it then you make a decision to believe it. I'd never reach such a conclusion on my own if my sister in law did not tell me her (false) interpretation.

Just few days ago, I was talking to a Catholic lady at work and she was telling me "our" church is suffering and weak now. (She was talking about liberals and the Pope...etc... I'm not really into politics so I do not really know what she is talking about.) Anyways, she referred to Mary as "our mother" and she thinks Mary protects the Catholic Church now... I believe this came from a pagan religion. Sorry, not trying to be rude but it is somehow like making Mary and Jesus: The God and Goddess. If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

There is a lot in scripture about Mary if you look for it.

Mary is not a godess and the Catholic Church doesn't make her out to be one.

The Catholic Church does not take anything from pagan religions.

You have many misconceptions about the Catholic Church and Mary.

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

Yes, please present your proofs.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God. I chose to believe in the bible and lots of things started to make sense to me.

You say that you do not make her a Goddess. This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It will be a bad idea to compare Mary to demonic Goddess. I really do not feel like I want to do it here. however, It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess." It is really so many things in the Catholic rituals, traditions, and history.

Lily it is against the rules to Call Catholic satanic which is effectively what you are doing here.

You said:

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

And I asked you to provide such proofs.

Instead you have launched into an attack on my beliefs without any evidence for your claims.

I am reporting your post.

I did not call the Catholic Church satanic.... (I also do not believe that.)

I'm not sure why you accuse me of something I did not say?

I was talking about myself and what I used to believe about Mary. Go re-read what I said again. 

I only described why I was stuggling to find the truth about Mary.

Here is what I said again:

I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic.

This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess."

Yes it was satanic. I have the right to say that about something I used to believe. I know it was Satan who made me think that way that Mary was sinless. I did not say the RCC is satanic yet you insist!

Calling Mary "our mother" is wrong. She is the mother of Jesus. I said nothing wrong. The term is coming from wicca/Pagan Greek religions. It is a very common occult term and I gave you an article to read about the occult view of Mary in the RCC.

I gave you the resources. Go read them since you said you wanted a proof.

[Selene]

I was so confused what I should believe about Mary for a long time. It was always a question after another. Should we call her mother of God, mother of the lord, Mother of Jesus...etc? Was she sinless? Does she have other children? Why she was chosen? How was her life...? How many Marys are in the bible? etc...etc...  I even loved those Anglican rosaries and felt like I wanted to pray it. (I think it was Satan.) I never used it but I saw some Anglicans use it including my sister in law. I'm not sure why she does not call herself Anglo-Catholic because she is a very traditional pastor. I assume it has to do with the Catholic bible. 

Anyways, I studied the bible on this issue because I needed to sort this thing for myself lol!

What I REALLY found was nothing more than...... "assumptions. "

There is really very little about Mary in the bible. So it was not even my fault! And the bible was very clear about her position. [See: Mark 3:31-35 & Matthew 13:55 & Romans 3:23] It is nothing like what Catholics or some Anglicans claim. It has no basis in the bible. Therefore I no longer need to believe an assumption especially when the bible is clear about it. Catholics usually use some verses that are not about Mary and apply it to her. It is like digging in the bible to prove something "hidden" somewhere! I'm referring to [Ezekiel 44:2] you need someone to tell you about it then you make a decision to believe it. I'd never reach such a conclusion on my own if my sister in law did not tell me her (false) interpretation.

Just few days ago, I was talking to a Catholic lady at work and she was telling me "our" church is suffering and weak now. (She was talking about liberals and the Pope...etc... I'm not really into politics so I do not really know what she is talking about.) Anyways, she referred to Mary as "our mother" and she thinks Mary protects the Catholic Church now... I believe this came from a pagan religion. Sorry, not trying to be rude but it is somehow like making Mary and Jesus: The God and Goddess. If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

There is a lot in scripture about Mary if you look for it.

Mary is not a godess and the Catholic Church doesn't make her out to be one.

The Catholic Church does not take anything from pagan religions.

You have many misconceptions about the Catholic Church and Mary.

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

Yes, please present your proofs.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God. I chose to believe in the bible and lots of things started to make sense to me.

You say that you do not make her a Goddess. This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It will be a bad idea to compare Mary to demonic Goddess. I really do not feel like I want to do it here. however, It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess." It is really so many things in the Catholic rituals, traditions, and history.

Lily it is against the rules to Call Catholic satanic which is effectively what you are doing here.

You said:

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

And I asked you to provide such proofs.

Instead you have launched into an attack on my beliefs without any evidence for your claims.

I am reporting your post.

I did not call the Catholic Church satanic.... (I also do not believe that.)

I'm not sure why you accuse me of something I did not say?

I was talking about myself and what I used to believe about Mary. Go re-read what I said again. 

I only described why I was stuggling to find the truth about Mary.

Here is what I said again:

I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic.

This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess."

Yes it was satanic. I have the right to say that about something I used to believe. I know it was Satan who made me think that way that Mary was sinless. I did not say the RCC is satanic yet you insist!

Calling Mary "our mother" is wrong. She is the mother of Jesus. I said nothing wrong. The term is coming from wicca/Pagan Greek religions. It is a very common occult term and I gave you an article to read about the occult view of Mary in the RCC.

I gave you the resources. Go read them since you said you wanted a proof.

Your sources are antiCatholic.  Mary was set aside by God, and Christ was the one who put His mother on a pedestal to fulfill that commandment "Honor thy mother and thy father."  The commandment never said to honor only your father.  Christ had a mother, and He honored her more perfectly than any son on earth could.  How does one honor their mother??  Is it not by putting her above all women?  That is why Mary is called "Blessed" for all generations.   

Also, Mary is our Mother.  If God can make Abraham the "Father of all nations," He can make Mary the Mother of the Church. 

Revelations 12:1-     A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head..........She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.,,,,,,,,,,Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

According to this biblical verse, Mary is our mother just as Christ is our brother.  The woman in Revelations gave birth to a male child, and that child is Jesus.  And revelations goes on to say that the dragon when to make war with the rest of her offspring who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Who are these other offsprings??  They are the Church. 

[Ladonia]

I was so confused what I should believe about Mary for a long time. It was always a question after another. Should we call her mother of God, mother of the lord, Mother of Jesus...etc? Was she sinless? Does she have other children? Why she was chosen? How was her life...? How many Marys are in the bible? etc...etc...  I even loved those Anglican rosaries and felt like I wanted to pray it. (I think it was Satan.) I never used it but I saw some Anglicans use it including my sister in law. I'm not sure why she does not call herself Anglo-Catholic because she is a very traditional pastor. I assume it has to do with the Catholic bible. 

Anyways, I studied the bible on this issue because I needed to sort this thing for myself lol!

What I REALLY found was nothing more than...... "assumptions. "

There is really very little about Mary in the bible. So it was not even my fault! And the bible was very clear about her position. [See: Mark 3:31-35 & Matthew 13:55 & Romans 3:23] It is nothing like what Catholics or some Anglicans claim. It has no basis in the bible. Therefore I no longer need to believe an assumption especially when the bible is clear about it. Catholics usually use some verses that are not about Mary and apply it to her. It is like digging in the bible to prove something "hidden" somewhere! I'm referring to [Ezekiel 44:2] you need someone to tell you about it then you make a decision to believe it. I'd never reach such a conclusion on my own if my sister in law did not tell me her (false) interpretation.

Just few days ago, I was talking to a Catholic lady at work and she was telling me "our" church is suffering and weak now. (She was talking about liberals and the Pope...etc... I'm not really into politics so I do not really know what she is talking about.) Anyways, she referred to Mary as "our mother" and she thinks Mary protects the Catholic Church now... I believe this came from a pagan religion. Sorry, not trying to be rude but it is somehow like making Mary and Jesus: The God and Goddess. If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

There is a lot in scripture about Mary if you look for it.

Mary is not a godess and the Catholic Church doesn't make her out to be one.

The Catholic Church does not take anything from pagan religions.

You have many misconceptions about the Catholic Church and Mary.

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

Yes, please present your proofs.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God. I chose to believe in the bible and lots of things started to make sense to me.

You say that you do not make her a Goddess. This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It will be a bad idea to compare Mary to demonic Goddess. I really do not feel like I want to do it here. however, It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess." It is really so many things in the Catholic rituals, traditions, and history.

Lily it is against the rules to Call Catholic satanic which is effectively what you are doing here.

You said:

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

And I asked you to provide such proofs.

Instead you have launched into an attack on my beliefs without any evidence for your claims.

I am reporting your post.

I did not call the Catholic Church satanic.... (I also do not believe that.)

I'm not sure why you accuse me of something I did not say?

I was talking about myself and what I used to believe about Mary. Go re-read what I said again. 

I only described why I was stuggling to find the truth about Mary.

Here is what I said again:

I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic.

This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess."

Yes it was satanic. I have the right to say that about something I used to believe. I know it was Satan who made me think that way that Mary was sinless. I did not say the RCC is satanic yet you insist!

Calling Mary "our mother" is wrong. She is the mother of Jesus. I said nothing wrong. The term is coming from wicca/Pagan Greek religions. It is a very common occult term and I gave you an article to read about the occult view of Mary in the RCC.

I gave you the resources. Go read them since you said you wanted a proof.

Don't just point out the Catholic position in all this, it is all Christianity that took it's cue from paganism, ( and supplanted it) in the minds of a great many  humans, no? Go read about Mithra, a religious concept which was on the scene long before the Christianity we believe  in now.

[AVZ]

No-one must take a vow of celibacy.

The Bible is very clear. Marriage is an institution given by God, and children are blessings from God.
God created Eve as a companion to Adam.

So if a young man is called by God to do His work, and this young man happens to be Catholic and also wants to get married...he cannot be a priest.
Celibacy is an unbiblical obstacle.

Yes, I know, Paul says that "it is better not to be married"....but that is only for those who can control themselves.
Together with his advise, Paul also deposits a sound and clear warning...a warning that is and has been completely ignored by the RCC over the centuries.

The equation priest=unmarried simply is not biblical.

If someone wants to be a priest and remain unmarried...so be it.
But if someone is called by God to work in His service, who is the RCC to put an unbiblical obstruction on his path?

[.:Lily:.]

I was so confused what I should believe about Mary for a long time. It was always a question after another. Should we call her mother of God, mother of the lord, Mother of Jesus...etc? Was she sinless? Does she have other children? Why she was chosen? How was her life...? How many Marys are in the bible? etc...etc...  I even loved those Anglican rosaries and felt like I wanted to pray it. (I think it was Satan.) I never used it but I saw some Anglicans use it including my sister in law. I'm not sure why she does not call herself Anglo-Catholic because she is a very traditional pastor. I assume it has to do with the Catholic bible. 

Anyways, I studied the bible on this issue because I needed to sort this thing for myself lol!

What I REALLY found was nothing more than...... "assumptions. "

There is really very little about Mary in the bible. So it was not even my fault! And the bible was very clear about her position. [See: Mark 3:31-35 & Matthew 13:55 & Romans 3:23] It is nothing like what Catholics or some Anglicans claim. It has no basis in the bible. Therefore I no longer need to believe an assumption especially when the bible is clear about it. Catholics usually use some verses that are not about Mary and apply it to her. It is like digging in the bible to prove something "hidden" somewhere! I'm referring to [Ezekiel 44:2] you need someone to tell you about it then you make a decision to believe it. I'd never reach such a conclusion on my own if my sister in law did not tell me her (false) interpretation.

Just few days ago, I was talking to a Catholic lady at work and she was telling me "our" church is suffering and weak now. (She was talking about liberals and the Pope...etc... I'm not really into politics so I do not really know what she is talking about.) Anyways, she referred to Mary as "our mother" and she thinks Mary protects the Catholic Church now... I believe this came from a pagan religion. Sorry, not trying to be rude but it is somehow like making Mary and Jesus: The God and Goddess. If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

There is a lot in scripture about Mary if you look for it.

Mary is not a godess and the Catholic Church doesn't make her out to be one.

The Catholic Church does not take anything from pagan religions.

You have many misconceptions about the Catholic Church and Mary.

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

Yes, please present your proofs.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God. I chose to believe in the bible and lots of things started to make sense to me.

You say that you do not make her a Goddess. This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It will be a bad idea to compare Mary to demonic Goddess. I really do not feel like I want to do it here. however, It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess." It is really so many things in the Catholic rituals, traditions, and history.

Lily it is against the rules to Call Catholic satanic which is effectively what you are doing here.

You said:

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

And I asked you to provide such proofs.

Instead you have launched into an attack on my beliefs without any evidence for your claims.

I am reporting your post.

I did not call the Catholic Church satanic.... (I also do not believe that.)

I'm not sure why you accuse me of something I did not say?

I was talking about myself and what I used to believe about Mary. Go re-read what I said again. 

I only described why I was stuggling to find the truth about Mary.

Here is what I said again:

I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic.

This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess."

Yes it was satanic. I have the right to say that about something I used to believe. I know it was Satan who made me think that way that Mary was sinless. I did not say the RCC is satanic yet you insist!

Calling Mary "our mother" is wrong. She is the mother of Jesus. I said nothing wrong. The term is coming from wicca/Pagan Greek religions. It is a very common occult term and I gave you an article to read about the occult view of Mary in the RCC.

I gave you the resources. Go read them since you said you wanted a proof.

Don't just point out the Catholic position in all this, it is all Christianity that took it's cue from paganism, ( and supplanted it) in the minds of a great many  humans, no? Go read about Mithra, a religious concept which was on the scene long before the Christianity we believe  in now.

Yes I know a lot about it. What do you want to say?

I was an occultist. Jesus delivered me from this mess. Zoroastrianism in general, Osiris, Isis, Horus, Ra and all other entities is from Satan. They do have demonic powers. Of course, there are no similarities to true Christianity. They are identical to things in the RCC though. Actually, these 'entities' are found in the Vatican many times. Have you seen them or do you want me to show you? The eye of RA, the all seeing-eye is widely seen in the Vatican and the RCC and if you know about the occult you probably know THAT is never a coincidence. Do you wonder why Mary appears to so many around the world? It is all by the occult.

[.:Lily:.]

I was so confused what I should believe about Mary for a long time. It was always a question after another. Should we call her mother of God, mother of the lord, Mother of Jesus...etc? Was she sinless? Does she have other children? Why she was chosen? How was her life...? How many Marys are in the bible? etc...etc...  I even loved those Anglican rosaries and felt like I wanted to pray it. (I think it was Satan.) I never used it but I saw some Anglicans use it including my sister in law. I'm not sure why she does not call herself Anglo-Catholic because she is a very traditional pastor. I assume it has to do with the Catholic bible. 

Anyways, I studied the bible on this issue because I needed to sort this thing for myself lol!

What I REALLY found was nothing more than...... "assumptions. "

There is really very little about Mary in the bible. So it was not even my fault! And the bible was very clear about her position. [See: Mark 3:31-35 & Matthew 13:55 & Romans 3:23] It is nothing like what Catholics or some Anglicans claim. It has no basis in the bible. Therefore I no longer need to believe an assumption especially when the bible is clear about it. Catholics usually use some verses that are not about Mary and apply it to her. It is like digging in the bible to prove something "hidden" somewhere! I'm referring to [Ezekiel 44:2] you need someone to tell you about it then you make a decision to believe it. I'd never reach such a conclusion on my own if my sister in law did not tell me her (false) interpretation.

Just few days ago, I was talking to a Catholic lady at work and she was telling me "our" church is suffering and weak now. (She was talking about liberals and the Pope...etc... I'm not really into politics so I do not really know what she is talking about.) Anyways, she referred to Mary as "our mother" and she thinks Mary protects the Catholic Church now... I believe this came from a pagan religion. Sorry, not trying to be rude but it is somehow like making Mary and Jesus: The God and Goddess. If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

There is a lot in scripture about Mary if you look for it.

Mary is not a godess and the Catholic Church doesn't make her out to be one.

The Catholic Church does not take anything from pagan religions.

You have many misconceptions about the Catholic Church and Mary.

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

Yes, please present your proofs.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God. I chose to believe in the bible and lots of things started to make sense to me.

You say that you do not make her a Goddess. This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It will be a bad idea to compare Mary to demonic Goddess. I really do not feel like I want to do it here. however, It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess." It is really so many things in the Catholic rituals, traditions, and history.

Lily it is against the rules to Call Catholic satanic which is effectively what you are doing here.

You said:

If you want a proof I can show you that the RCC copies many things from the occult and other religions. That is how i know it is false.

And I asked you to provide such proofs.

Instead you have launched into an attack on my beliefs without any evidence for your claims.

I am reporting your post.

I did not call the Catholic Church satanic.... (I also do not believe that.)

I'm not sure why you accuse me of something I did not say?

I was talking about myself and what I used to believe about Mary. Go re-read what I said again. 

I only described why I was stuggling to find the truth about Mary.

Here is what I said again:

I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic. I had to decide to follow my feelings or the word of God.

I probably read every verse about Mary when I wanted to find out what I should believe about her. I tell you I was struggling a lot with this and I sort of know why now. It was really satanic.

This Catholic lady I just got to know at work called her "our Mother." It is so wrong and I know it is an occult term anyway.

It is so obvious that the RCC is influenced by the occult and other pagan religions. It is not only the occult view of Mary being something like "Mother Goddess."

Yes it was satanic. I have the right to say that about something I used to believe. I know it was Satan who made me think that way that Mary was sinless. I did not say the RCC is satanic yet you insist!

Calling Mary "our mother" is wrong. She is the mother of Jesus. I said nothing wrong. The term is coming from wicca/Pagan Greek religions. It is a very common occult term and I gave you an article to read about the occult view of Mary in the RCC.

I gave you the resources. Go read them since you said you wanted a proof.

Your sources are antiCatholic.  Mary was set aside by God, and Christ was the one who put His mother on a pedestal to fulfill that commandment "Honor thy mother and thy father."  The commandment never said to honor only your father.  Christ had a mother, and He honored her more perfectly than any son on earth could.  How does one honor their mother??  Is it not by putting her above all women?  That is why Mary is called "Blessed" for all generations.   

Also, Mary is our Mother.  If God can make Abraham the "Father of all nations," He can make Mary the Mother of the Church. 

Revelations 12:1-     A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head..........She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.,,,,,,,,,,Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

According to this biblical verse, Mary is our mother just as Christ is our brother.  The woman in Revelations gave birth to a male child, and that child is Jesus.  And revelations goes on to say that the dragon when to make war with the rest of her offspring who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Who are these other offsprings??  They are the Church.

I think it will be more suitable to call Mary my sister.

That verse does not say Mary is the mother of the church. Are not you going to stop this? You compare Mary to Jesus in everything.

Please show me one verse that says Mary is sinless, another that says she is mother of God or Co-redemptrix....etc...

[winsome]

Calling Mary "our mother" is wrong. She is the mother of Jesus. I said nothing wrong. The term is coming from wicca/Pagan Greek religions. It is a very common occult term and I gave you an article to read about the occult view of Mary in the RCC.

I gave you the resources. Go read them since you said you wanted a proof.

Lily,

I asked YOU to present your proofs not point links to long great anti-Catholic tracts.

In discussions I expect YOU to make your own points with supporting evidence as necessary.

If you ask me a prove something about Mary (for example), you expect me to explain my position not just point a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church or a papal encyclical and say read that.

If you cannot do that then basically you do not understand the topic.

As far as I am concerned you are making allegations about the Catholic Church that you cannot backup.

[winsome]

 Papal Magic by Simon

I've done a little research into this.

Part II of the book is the "Grimoire of Pope Honorius III". A grimoire is a book of magic spells and incantation.

Here are some quotes about Papal Magic from an occult site – i.e. from people who know (or think they know) about the occult.

It [Grimoire of Pope Honorius] is a book on ceremonial magic that supposedly was written by Pope Honorius. However, it was most probably not written by him; instead, as was the customary practice during the 1500-1600's (maybe earlier, maybe later--I don't know), an unknown author other than the pope wrote it and to give it some authenticity named it after the pope, also probably so he, the author, was not consigned to the flames.

pope honorius my ass... sorry. It s a counterfeit grimoire to draw people to buy it because they thought it was the Sworn Book of Honorius. thats the real deal. Of course, the dispicable grimoire is workable just like any made up grimoire, but Honorius is not the pope. Honorius , as Liber Juratus says, was a mage that wa born in Thebes and took part at the mage council of the time.

yes , the grimoire of honorius is a poorly stiched together grimoire with instructions that do not come from earlyer sources, but are made up, and the rituals are prepostorous and shows a poor understanding of evocational magic.

Further research into Le Grimoire du Pape Honorius shows it to be published in 1760 in French. Pope Honorius III was Pope over 500 years earlier (1216-1227).


The whole book has no references to any source material. In other words it is made up rubbish.


What is so annoying is that gullible people like Lily believe this trash and throw it at the Catholic Church and expect us to spend hours refuting such rubbish.

[.:Lily:.]

Papal Magic by Simon

I've done a little research into this.

Part II of the book is the "Grimoire of Pope Honorius III". A grimoire is a book of magic spells and incantation.

Here are some quotes about Papal Magic from an occult site – i.e. from people who know (or think they know) about the occult.

It [Grimoire of Pope Honorius] is a book on ceremonial magic that supposedly was written by Pope Honorius. However, it was most probably not written by him; instead, as was the customary practice during the 1500-1600's (maybe earlier, maybe later--I don't know), an unknown author other than the pope wrote it and to give it some authenticity named it after the pope, also probably so he, the author, was not consigned to the flames.

pope honorius my ass... sorry. It s a counterfeit grimoire to draw people to buy it because they thought it was the Sworn Book of Honorius. thats the real deal. Of course, the dispicable grimoire is workable just like any made up grimoire, but Honorius is not the pope. Honorius , as Liber Juratus says, was a mage that wa born in Thebes and took part at the mage council of the time.

yes , the grimoire of honorius is a poorly stiched together grimoire with instructions that do not come from earlyer sources, but are made up, and the rituals are prepostorous and shows a poor understanding of evocational magic.

Further research into Le Grimoire du Pape Honorius shows it to be published in 1760 in French. Pope Honorius III was Pope over 500 years earlier (1216-1227).


The whole book has no references to any source material. In other words it is made up rubbish.


What is so annoying is that gullible people like Lily believe this trash and throw it at the Catholic Church and expect us to spend hours refuting such rubbish.

Tell me then why do we see all of that rubbish in the Vatican and the RCC?

This is Professor Walter Veith. Tell me he is also gullible.

Walter Veith - (19) The Wine of Babylon / Total Onslaught

[k-pappy]

I've locked the topic until you both can calm down.