Judaism or Christianity? Broken off of Messianists

[DaveW]

I was told that I did not list Messianics.   Messianics ought to be listed as Christians, but that is another discussion.

OK - here is that "other discussion."

I say MJ should be listed as a Judaism.  With me on that I have Reform Rabbi Dan Cohn-Sherbok, a theologian, author and Professor Emeritus of Judaism at the University of Wales.


Let me start with this. The online Bing Dictionary defines Judaism this way:

Definition of Judaism (n) 

    Ju·da·ism

1    religion of Jews: the religion of the Jews, which has its basis in the Bible and the Talmud.
2    Jewish way of life: Jewish religious practices, customs, and culture as a way of life

1 Messianic Judaism has Jews.  It was started by Jews It has been maintained and grown by Jews. Our doctrine is based on the bible (both OT and NT) and much of our service structure is from the Talmud.

2 MJ adherents, both Jewish and Gentile, seek to keep to a Jewish lifestyle to one degree or another including Jewish religious practices, customs, and culture.


So I say we fit the definition of a Judaism.

But of course not every one will agree.  The Orthodox and Haradi in Israel have a definition of Judaism that Conservative and Reform Judaisms do not fit and they want these "denominations" to be legally deemed a different religion.

[notreligus]

It's like trying to be half-pregnant.   

[ForToday]

It's like trying to be half-pregnant.

Why would you say that?

[winsome]

I was told that I did not list Messianics.   Messianics ought to be listed as Christians, but that is another discussion.

OK - here is that "other discussion."

I say MJ should be listed as a Judaism.  With me on that I have Reform Rabbi Dan Cohn-Sherbok, a theologian, author and Professor Emeritus of Judaism at the University of Wales.


Let me start with this. The online Bing Dictionary defines Judaism this way:

Definition of Judaism (n) 

    Ju·da·ism

1    religion of Jews: the religion of the Jews, which has its basis in the Bible and the Talmud.
2    Jewish way of life: Jewish religious practices, customs, and culture as a way of life

1 Messianic Judaism has Jews.  It was started by Jews It has been maintained and grown by Jews. Our doctrine is based on the bible (both OT and NT) and much of our service structure is from the Talmud.

2 MJ adherents, both Jewish and Gentile, seek to keep to a Jewish lifestyle to one degree or another including Jewish religious practices, customs, and culture.


So I say we fit the definition of a Judaism.

But of course not every one will agree.  The Orthodox and Haradi in Israel have a definition of Judaism that Conservative and Reform Judaisms do not fit and they want these "denominations" to be legally deemed a different religion.

That's the problem with labels. We need them but groups don't always fit neatly within them.

Even within Messiaic Judaism there are probably disagreements about who is and who is not.

Incidentally (if this doesn't take it off topic) where would you fit Hebrew Catholics? - http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Hebrew_Catholics

[notreligus]

It's like trying to be half-pregnant.

Why would you say that?

That's because it is something that is not possible.   One cannot be under Moses and the Law and be under Christ at the same time.  But Messianics are trying to do this and they are diluting the Christian faith in the process.   The Apostle Paul was a Jew, a Pharisee, but the greatest deterrent to his preaching the Gospel of Grace and the New Covenant was the opposition from Jews and Judaizers.   It's recorded in Acts and in his epistles.   

I asked an Orthodox Jewish man I know from another forum what he thought about Messianics and Judaism.   He said that Messianics are Christians who want to be Jews.  I won't put the rest of his answer here as it is a bit too harsh.   

Isn't Christ sufficient?   

[DaveW]

Incidentally (if this doesn't take it off topic) where would you fit Hebrew Catholics? - http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Hebrew_Catholics

Interesting topic. While it is somewhat OT to the subject of whether Messianic Judaism should be listed as Jewish, Christian or both (or neither); I will allow it (as the OP) but if it takes on its own life I will ask the mods to separate it out.

The Toward Jerusalem Council 2 (tjcii.org) met with Pope John Paul 2 many times and he (in response) started work on a separate "Jewish Rite" within the RCC.  I have found little information on it so apparently it is still a work in progress.

On another front, UMJC Rabbi Mark Kinzer (Ann Arbor MI) started a discussion group a few years back with Jewish Catholic priest Antoine Levy called the "Helsinki Consultation."
Information on that can be found here:

http://helsinkiconsultation.squarespace.com/

[DaveW]

That's because it is something that is not possible.   One cannot be under Moses and the Law and be under Christ at the same time.  But Messianics are trying to do this and they are diluting the Christian faith in the process.   The Apostle Paul was a Jew, a Pharisee, but the greatest deterrent to his preaching the Gospel of Grace and the New Covenant was the opposition from Jews and Judaizers.   It's recorded in Acts and in his epistles.   

NR - we have been around this one before a time or 2.  You are misunderstanding MJ. We are not "under the law" as you say.  But the evangelical interpretation of Moses is not necessarily the correct one. While we do follow much of the Mosaic commands, it is NOT for salvation or anything other than to fulfill our calling in the Lord as Jews.  Evangelical Christianity seems to be intent on not recognizing that God has differing functions and callings for different people groups. That is to their own detriment.

I asked an Orthodox Jewish man I know from another forum what he thought about Messianics and Judaism.   He said that Messianics are Christians who want to be Jews.  I won't put the rest of his answer here as it is a bit too harsh.

Oh we know all about Orthodox Judaism's opinion of us.  Our synagogues in Israel have been firebombed, tires slashed during services and even package bombs sent to Messianic rabbis and their families.

The fact they (the true keepers of Moses and the Law) seem to hate us so much should say something about us. Did they not also hate Our Lord?  They see us as a serious threat to Moses and the Law.

[winsome]

Incidentally (if this doesn't take it off topic) where would you fit Hebrew Catholics? - http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Hebrew_Catholics

Interesting topic. While it is somewhat OT to the subject of whether Messianic Judaism should be listed as Jewish, Christian or both (or neither); I will allow it (as the OP) but if it takes on its own life I will ask the mods to separate it out.

The Toward Jerusalem Council 2 (tjcii.org) met with Pope John Paul 2 many times and he (in response) started work on a separate "Jewish Rite" within the RCC.  I have found little information on it so apparently it is still a work in progress.

On another front, UMJC Rabbi Mark Kinzer (Ann Arbor MI) started a discussion group a few years back with Jewish Catholic priest Antoine Levy called the "Helsinki Consultation."
Information on that can be found here:

http://helsinkiconsultation.squarespace.com/

I asked an Orthodox Jewish man I know from another forum what he thought about Messianics and Judaism.   He said that Messianics are Christians who want to be Jews.  I won't put the rest of his answer here as it is a bit too harsh.   

The web site I linked to says this:
Hebrew Catholics should not be confused with Messianic Jews, who are independent Hebrew Christian denominations, many of them Sabbatarian Protestants, some of whom follow Calvinist doctrine but celebrate Jewish holy days and emphasize Jewish elements of Christianity. Hebrew Catholics are in full communion with the Vatican and are not an independent movement.

I think that is a bit harsh about Messianic Jews. My experience with people who claim to be Messianic Jews on forums is mixed. Some seem to be genuinely Jewish and have embraced Jesus as the Messiah, and others -IMO- are basically Protestants who like calling Jesus, Yeshua and  Paul, Ravi Sha'ul (or something like that) and their knowledge of Judaism seems very flaky (but perhaps I'm being harsh there).

It seems a bit difficult to give a general label (Messianic Jews) to them as there so many variations.

[DaveW]

A bit harsh?  Perhaps.
It is a wiki and consider the source. (not anyone from Messianic Judaism)  Se la vie

But to be sure, the MJ "movement" is by no means a monolith. (even as Judaism itself has NEVER been a monolith) Hence your "mixed" experience.  Some are absolute flakes and several splinter groups try to come under the MJ heading when they really should not.

I hope I present a balanced and scriptural apologetic for Messianism. In the US, most legitimate Messianic Jews are in either the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC), the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA) or Chosen People Ministries. 

The Tikkun group I am in is a sub-group of the UMJC, both started by Rabbi Dan Juster.

BTW - I am a gentile.

[winsome]

BTW - I am a gentile.

That surprises me. I'd assumed you were from a Jewish background.

BTW I hope I didn't give the impression I counted you among those "who like calling Jesus, Yeshua and  Paul, Ravi Sha'ul (or something like that) and their knowledge of Judaism seems very flaky". because I certainly do not.

[DaveW]

BTW - I am a gentile.

That surprises me. I'd assumed you were from a Jewish background.

Yeah I get that a lot.  I never even met any Jews until I was in college.

I did study under a Conservative Rabbi for a year, (and a lot of self study following) so my knowledge of Judaism both in doctrine and custom surpasses many who were raised non-observant Jewish. Our rabbi who was raised Orthodox has actually consulted me on some points.

I am bothered by "flakes" as well.

[notreligus]

Incidentally (if this doesn't take it off topic) where would you fit Hebrew Catholics? - http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Hebrew_Catholics

Interesting topic. While it is somewhat OT to the subject of whether Messianic Judaism should be listed as Jewish, Christian or both (or neither); I will allow it (as the OP) but if it takes on its own life I will ask the mods to separate it out.

The Toward Jerusalem Council 2 (tjcii.org) met with Pope John Paul 2 many times and he (in response) started work on a separate "Jewish Rite" within the RCC.  I have found little information on it so apparently it is still a work in progress.

On another front, UMJC Rabbi Mark Kinzer (Ann Arbor MI) started a discussion group a few years back with Jewish Catholic priest Antoine Levy called the "Helsinki Consultation."
Information on that can be found here:

http://helsinkiconsultation.squarespace.com/

I asked an Orthodox Jewish man I know from another forum what he thought about Messianics and Judaism.   He said that Messianics are Christians who want to be Jews.  I won't put the rest of his answer here as it is a bit too harsh.   

The web site I linked to says this:
Hebrew Catholics should not be confused with Messianic Jews, who are independent Hebrew Christian denominations, many of them Sabbatarian Protestants, some of whom follow Calvinist doctrine but celebrate Jewish holy days and emphasize Jewish elements of Christianity. Hebrew Catholics are in full communion with the Vatican and are not an independent movement.

I think that is a bit harsh about Messianic Jews. My experience with people who claim to be Messianic Jews on forums is mixed. Some seem to be genuinely Jewish and have embraced Jesus as the Messiah, and others -IMO- are basically Protestants who like calling Jesus, Yeshua and  Paul, Ravi Sha'ul (or something like that) and their knowledge of Judaism seems very flaky (but perhaps I'm being harsh there).

It seems a bit difficult to give a general label (Messianic Jews) to them as there so many variations.

Perhaps you have not read some of the same posts I've read in this forum along with the misrepresentations I've read. 

For example, repeatedly, "Messianic" has been presented in a certain way, yet I have put threads and posts here to show that there are many beliefs associated with Messianics.  Some seem to think that they have to worship in a Temple with a rabbi leading the service and doing the preaching, yet there are others who are members of traditional main-line Protestant congregations/churches and don't try to set themselves apart as different than the rest of the mortals in the Church.   I think that the attempt to set these folk apart from other Christians is very dishonest, not to mention the fact that it is a claim that is in direct opposition to the Scriptures.   If you don't agree, then you live with your conscience as I have to live with mine.   

Lets look past the artful wording that is often used.   Hebrew has become a language when it used to refer, rightly, to a Semitic race of people.   Arabs are also Semites.  There are Hebrews who are Christians and there are Arabs who are Christians.   I'm not going to look up the posts for you but there have been posts made at this board which imply that someone can be a Jew and be a Christian.   The term Jew technically points to the tribe of Judah, but we know that it has become a catch-all term for anyone who is Jewish and practices Judaism.   Either way you choose to look at that, it still refers to someone who is practicing Judaism.   How can anyone practice Judaism and Christianity at the same time?   Judaism is a religion that is practiced by those who DO NOT believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the true Son of God.   So is Hinduism.  Can one be Hindu and Christian at the same time?   I suppose that someone can claim just about anything but that won't make it so.

Messianics refer to their faith as Messianic Judaism.   That is a conflict in terms.   How can you believe that Christ is Messiah and not believe that Christ is Messiah at the same time?   

I have known Jewish folk all of my life.   My sister's best friend was Jewish.   My best friend was Jewish and remains one of my best friends.  If any man were to call me an anti-Semite in his presence I'm certain that if he had the nerve to try it again he'd be doing it while on his bee-hind from the floor.    I am not the one who is the racist.   

By the way, I used "temple" in lieu of synagogue.   There are area synagogues which use "Temple" in the name, and I've heard Jewish folk refer to "going to temple."   

[DaveW]

Sorry NR but I did not see this post of your until today.

The term Jew technically points to the tribe of Judah, but we know that it has become a catch-all term for anyone who is Jewish and practices Judaism.   Either way you choose to look at that, it still refers to someone who is practicing Judaism.   How can anyone practice Judaism and Christianity at the same time? 

I would submit you have an improper definition of Judaism and perhaps one of Christianity as well.

Judaism is a religion that is practiced by those who DO NOT believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the true Son of God. 

There you go.  That is NOT the definition of Judaism.  The Conservative rabbi I studied under defined it as "Ethical Monotheism."

Messianics refer to their faith as Messianic Judaism.   That is a conflict in terms.   How can you believe that Christ is Messiah and not believe that Christ is Messiah at the same time?   

Wrong question. (reflecting a wrong mentality on the subject)  The question in Acts 15 was "Can someone be a New Covenant believer (what you would now call a 'Christian') and NOT become a Jew?"  The answer was yes.  The question you are asking is the opposite and giving the opposite answer:   "Can someone be a New Covenant believer (what you would now call a 'Christian') and Still be a Jew?"  You would answer "No," but the answer actually is "Yes."

I am not the one who is the racist. 

I will believe you.

By the way, I used "temple" in lieu of synagogue.   There are area synagogues which use "Temple" in the name, and I've heard Jewish folk refer to "going to temple."

Reform movement Synagogues often use the term "Temple" in their name.  Orthodox, chassidic and Conservative do not.  They often call their Synagogue a "Shul" which is a Yiddish word meaning school. 

[DaveW]

The point still remains:  Messianics practice a form Judaism.  In one sense so do gentile Christians.

In both cases it is not RABBINIC Judaism. But if you study out the various forms of Judaism existing during the 2nd temple period, both MJ and Christianity fit into the mix.

And we want that clearly understood by the Church at large.

[winsome]

The point still remains:  Messianics practice a form Judaism.  In one sense so do gentile Christians.

In both cases it is not RABBINIC Judaism. But if you study out the various forms of Judaism existing during the 2nd temple period, both MJ and Christianity fit into the mix.

And we want that clearly understood by the Church at large.

Indeed, the roots of Christianity go right back into Judaism. I see no problem in Messianics keeping to some Judaic practices (e.g. the Shabbat), though I really don't understand why gentiles would become Messianics. However that is not the issue here.