Concerned with Book found in daughters Back Pack

[Catholica]

Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

Oh.my.gosh! What is up with that? LOL.

Do you go to Church every Sunday?

   

But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.  If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

have you read it? 

The Title and the description are enough to know. 

"A Waste of Time Called Church".

Description:
Maybe you are the one that can make sense of this. I know I can't. All I can really do is tell the truth about who he was and maybe offer some insight into why he did it. Tell you about an awkward boy with endless questions that evolved in to a narcotic pothead with one simple idea. "I will help people on Sunday instead of going to church."
He didn't shout it from a soap box. He didn't claim a path nor advise of one. He just did it, but in doing it people saw, and in seeing they grew curious. Their curiosity gave way to participation, and the idea gave way to a movement. A movement that when expanded, created an image of empty pews across the country, and those 60 million Americans that filled them every Sunday, setting out into their communities with one common goal; to help anyone that needed a hand.
A movement that traded Sunday bests for sweat trenched t-shirts and dust covered jeans. A movement that felt compelled to have a leader, no matter how much he pleaded with them they didn't.

[Catholica]

I feel a need to correct my post in defense of my friend.  Encourage may have not been the best choice of words.   Almost all of the parents there last night including he and his wife have read it all ready.   He was saying just as his wife had recommended to me for us to understand what we are dealing with.  I believe his exact words were " I know many of you have read this book already and to the others you may want to take a look at it or speak with one of the others who had."   I am obviously uncomfortable with this approach and I feel I may have misrepresented him earlier.   But make no mistake he is equally concerned, and I have no doubt that he and his wife were called into service.   I guess I applied some of my own frustration on this topic that I am growing increasingly tired of.

Understood and good to know.  I am sure that you are tired.  There is really no obligation to maintain the thread at this point; I think we would all understand and not judge you if you didn't keep it up.  Online discussions often lose their usefulness after awhile.

Prayers from me for you and your family.

[MeMyself]

Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

Oh.my.gosh! What is up with that? LOL.

Do you go to Church every Sunday?

Do you?

And, honestly, what does that have to do with the update or about the book?



   

But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.  If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

have you read it? 

The Title and the description are enough to know. 

"A Waste of Time Called Church".

Description:
Maybe you are the one that can make sense of this. I know I can't. All I can really do is tell the truth about who he was and maybe offer some insight into why he did it. Tell you about an awkward boy with endless questions that evolved in to a narcotic pothead with one simple idea. "I will help people on Sunday instead of going to church."
He didn't shout it from a soap box. He didn't claim a path nor advise of one. He just did it, but in doing it people saw, and in seeing they grew curious. Their curiosity gave way to participation, and the idea gave way to a movement. A movement that when expanded, created an image of empty pews across the country, and those 60 million Americans that filled them every Sunday, setting out into their communities with one common goal; to help anyone that needed a hand.
A movement that traded Sunday bests for sweat trenched t-shirts and dust covered jeans. A movement that felt compelled to have a leader, no matter how much he pleaded with them they didn't.

I've no dog in this fight.  I am not drawn to its message nor do I have a desire to read it...but if my kids were and they wanted me to, I would.  I would so that we could talk about what appeals to them, what concerns them about church, and know where their hearts are...and I dont' think there is anything wrong with that.

[Catholica]

Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

Oh.my.gosh! What is up with that? LOL.

Do you go to Church every Sunday?

Do you?

And, honestly, what does that have to do with the update or about the book?

Yes, I go every Sunday, and some days that aren't Sunday in addition.

It has to do with the book because the book is saying that going to Church on Sunday is a waste of time.  But God says that you break a commandment by not going to Church on Sunday.  The book is suggesting to people that they break the commandment.  As with many commandments, people who break them are more likely to not see the problem with suggesting that other people break them.
 

But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.  If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

have you read it? 

The Title and the description are enough to know. 

"A Waste of Time Called Church".

Description:
Maybe you are the one that can make sense of this. I know I can't. All I can really do is tell the truth about who he was and maybe offer some insight into why he did it. Tell you about an awkward boy with endless questions that evolved in to a narcotic pothead with one simple idea. "I will help people on Sunday instead of going to church."
He didn't shout it from a soap box. He didn't claim a path nor advise of one. He just did it, but in doing it people saw, and in seeing they grew curious. Their curiosity gave way to participation, and the idea gave way to a movement. A movement that when expanded, created an image of empty pews across the country, and those 60 million Americans that filled them every Sunday, setting out into their communities with one common goal; to help anyone that needed a hand.
A movement that traded Sunday bests for sweat trenched t-shirts and dust covered jeans. A movement that felt compelled to have a leader, no matter how much he pleaded with them they didn't.

I've no dog in this fight.  I am not drawn to its message nor do I have a desire to read it...but if my kids were and they wanted me to, I would.  I would so that we could talk about what appeals to them, what concerns them about church, and know where their hearts are...and I dont' think there is anything wrong with that.

Ok, but I wasn't specifically speaking of you, but "others who share your opinion".

That being said, you should be concerned with the message in the book, because it suggests to people that they break God's commandment.

[MeMyself]

That being said, you should be concerned with the message in the book, because it suggests to people that they break God's commandment.

Ok. Thanks for your thoughts.

[chosenone]

Well, this book will not go away.  Our pastor made some veiled references to it in his Wednesday Service.   Afterward a few of us discussed over coffee.    Much like this forum there were a few parents that disagreed with my tactics.  But we all agree it is unsettling how quickly  this book came out of nowhere and was disseminated  through our youth group. Our pastor's response was "God places obstacles not to stop us,  but to strengthen us by overcoming them. We must seize this opportunity not for judgment  but for counsel.  We must replace our resentment with compassion. "   He urged, as his wife had done to me, for all of us to read it.  (Ironic that a book I loathe because of its attack on church is being encouraged to be read in church).   Currently the plan is to continue to focus on the "Good Works" portion of this book both  verbally and in practice.   But he was adamant that we can not ignore  the author's this person with a computer's manipulation, but we must be delicate on how we proceed.   There was some discussion on allowing the children an opportunity to speak openly about  this book that may very well be the outcome.

I was reluctant to make this post because of some of the comments I have received in this forum.   But I have included this forum from the beginning and I felt it would have been cowardly not to continue.   Even though I know many will see an opportunity to say I told you so based on my pastor's response.  While I will always see this book as meritless, I do  have an immense level of respect for both my Pastor and his Wife. 

While I have very different ideas than you as to how to handle such situations, dialogue is vital. However I wouldn't read Harry Potter for example, just because some young people in the church may be reading it.  I would research what is in the book to have some idea, but I wouldnt read it.
Should all of the men in the church look at porn because they may understand why a few men are tempted to do it and they can all discuss it? I know a pastor who did just that, and he got addicted. 
AS I said its a difficult balance when dealing with these things with teenagers.

[chosenone]

Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.

If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

However Paul so clearly says that some will see some days as different or 'special', and some will think of each day the same, and that neither are wrong.

[Catholica]

Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.

If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

However Paul so clearly says that some will see some days as different or 'special', and some will think of each day the same, and that neither are wrong.

Interesting interpretation; but I don't think the text actually says that.  Unless you are thinking of a different text than I am.  What verse(s) are you referring to?

[Willie T]

To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

Usually protestant pastors encourage their congregations to search things out for themselves to make sure the direction they are leading is in the right way.  All that I have sat under have said things to the effect of "Search this out for yourself. If you find I am in error, I invite a dialog about it."

I would be *highly* suspect of a leader that just wanted to spoon feed his congregation, but not wish them to participate and think for themselves.

Well, maybe you should search out for yourself whether that method really works or not instead of just accepting it.   Start by counting the profound differences between 33,000 Protestant denominations (even between matters regarding salvation), asking yourself whether God is the author of confusion.  Then consider that he may have actually established a reliable authority from the time he walked among us so that we wouldn't have to determine those necessary truths revealed by God by ourselves (and thus create our own version of truth, i.e. denominations).

And explore the Catholic faith for yourself.  If you have any questions, even hard ones, you know I'm around to help.

I wasn't attacking you, your church or your faith, I was explaining why he would like his congregation to follow him in reading it...

I didn't say that you were, I'm just helping you see the logical conclusion of the method you are suggesting.  Are you sure that a leader's teachings shouldn't be trusted?  That it really makes sense to always be encouraged to explore things for ourselves?

A pastor's word it seems should be trusted, unless the word itself rings false.  So it makes sense for a pastor to be preaching truth with reasonable hope that people will listen to him.

Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

What is important about the three final remarks Pastor Alan made at the end of the interview?  You can discuss this with a teenager, can't you?  Oh, you can't?

[chosenone]

Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.

If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

However Paul so clearly says that some will see some days as different or 'special', and some will think of each day the same, and that neither are wrong.

Interesting interpretation; but I don't think the text actually says that.  Unless you are thinking of a different text than I am.  What verse(s) are you referring to?

I thought I had already posted this but here goes again
Romans 14v5
In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable

[DaveW]

I thought I had already posted this but here goes again
Romans 14v5
In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable

That was in the thread you broke off of this one.