Re: As a guy, how does one know if their mind goes too far seeing females?

[Cally]

I don't believe in the "men are visual" axiom. For one thing, that phrase is used in this context and none other.

I believe it's a deeply rooted visual association, yes, like the female form is a trophy for men's success.

Proverbs 6:26
For on account of a harlot a man is brought to a piece of bread, and the adulteress stalks and snares [as with a hook] the precious life [of a man]..

It's about men being reduced to pieces of bread: performance objects. And the female form treated like it's an indicator of a man's success. It's a sick, deeply-rooted cultural flaw. This verse should be preached to men IN LOVE, but hearing the way this culture preaches to men like it actually wants men to see themselves as performance objects, it's going in exactly the opposite direction to correct the problem at its real root.

It's not exactly unheard of for women to have sexual struggles too. I've never once heard a woman rebuked for failing to respect men or "degrading men" (it would sure be a good thing if they were in other contexts). Why is it so hard for this culture to acknowledge, likewise, the innate value of a man and his dignity? Why, despite the teaching of the Bible, are we not hearing: men, the prostitute (or porn star) degrades YOU? Proverbs 6:26.

[chosenone]

I don't believe in the "men are visual" axiom. For one thing, that phrase is used in this context and none other.

I believe it's a deeply rooted visual association, yes, like the female form is a trophy for men's success.

Proverbs 6:26
for the price of a prostitute is only a loaf of bread, but a married woman hunts down a precious life.

It's about men being reduced to pieces of bread: performance objects. And the female form treated like it's an indicator of a man's success. It's a sick, deeply-rooted cultural flaw. This verse should be preached to men IN LOVE, but hearing the way this culture preaches to men like it actually wants men to see themselves as performance objects, it's going in exactly the opposite direction to correct the problem at its real root.

It's not exactly unheard of for women to have sexual struggles too. I've never once heard a woman rebuked for failing to respect men or "degrading men" (it would sure be a good thing if they were in other contexts). Why is it so hard for this culture to acknowledge, likewise, the innate value of a man and his dignity? Why, despite the teaching of the Bible, are we not hearing: men, the prostitute (or porn star) degrades YOU? Proverbs 6:26.

I agree, both the one who looks and the one who is looked at, in porn for example, are degraded.
Yes women can be just as guilty as men in this. The way that so many women go to see male strippers like the chippendales is sad. However I do think that men are usually far more visually stimulated than women, for many women evenings out like this are often just for a laugh with their friends.   

[Red Baker]

I don't believe in the "men are visual" axiom. For one thing, that phrase is used in this context and none other.

Cally, would you care to explain this more, because I think you and I may disagree here, even though I have great respect for you.  If you do not agree in this statement: "men are visual" then tell me why you do not. I may not be true of you, but I know by many testimonies, scriptures examples, and scriptures in general, that I believe you are wrong, but maybe you could help me out a little, that I do not misunderstand you.  I desire to justify you where I can, in your thinking. Now, in other area's men and women may be the same, but not in this area of sexual temptations.  Men are an hundred times more visual than women~and if there is an exception, than it will only prove that the rule stands, exceptions prove rules, they do not change them~which I know you know this. 

[Cally]

Red:

It's true that the Bible tends to refer more to men's temptation than women but I think that is mostly due to gender-neutral language and that the Bible is simply far fewer on female than male portrayals overall.

What do you think tempted Potiphar's wife? Granted, it's hard to know what sorts of interactions she had with Joseph. But it's rather obvious who was after who, and Joseph was a much younger, busier, and poor man. What aspect of his being do you think caused her to lust after him?

And how about Song of Songs?

Song of Songs 1:5
I am so black; but [you are] lovely and pleasant [the ladies assured her]

I pretty much just spent ten seconds looking at this book to see an example of women (more than one!) appreciating the appearance of a man--Song of Songs isn't a book of the Bible I know so much off the top of my head, but it has plenty of examples of a woman (and as verse 1:5 suggests, OTHER women as well) appreciating a man's appearance as well as a woman's.

I notice (and am told) I get "looks" from women. I went to a bar alone once because drinks were cheap--not used to the atmosphere which was pretty "blech" (somehow I envisioned a more "chillax" atmosphere at the time)--and a woman I never saw in my life kept "dancing" and calling at me, and eventually got so frustrated she came over to me, grabbed me, shook me, but her elbow into my side for it.

Is that kind of thing an "exception"? Not as much as you might think. Women ogle men too. Do you think the kind of man who works hard in the gym to sculpt his body for the sake of "picking up chicks" does so completely in vain, as if that's never worked?

All of that said, I DO acknowledge that the "men are visual" "axiom" has its basis in reaction to something real that's going on in the world--I'm not disputing that. However, I see NO biblical basis suggesting that men are INNATELY ""a hundred times" more visual (and as such more prone to sin) than women. I believe--as I have tried to explain--that there are deeply-rooted cultural issues that lead to this dynamic among others.

[chosenone]

Cally, women are far more attracted by what a man says, does, and by how he treats her than by his body. Why do you think that so many women love romance novels while so many men are addicted to porn? Why do you think that many attractive women end up with plain guys? Its because these men have charisma and know how to treat them well.  There are massive differences between the sexes in this area. 

[Cally]

Chosenone:

I wasn't going to reply, but just for the fyi: no, I will not respond to that kind of matter-of-fact arguing that completely ignores what I already put forward. If you have an honest question for me, you can look at the statements I already made and demonstrate that you took them thoroughly into consideration. Peace. ;-)

[Red Baker]

It's true that the Bible tends to refer more to men's temptation than women

It is not a tendency, but a fact/truth. Proverbs are full of warnings concerning the strange women, under which sin is personified, nevertheless a woman is used as a great temptation for men; and what greater example to used than a woman?  There are none for men, greater than that. 

but I think that is mostly due to gender-neutral language and that the Bible is simply far fewer on female than male portrayals overall.

It is used in thta manner for sure, and I agree, but it is very clear that the male when used in a sexual contents it has men ONLY in reference, unless you can prove otherwise.

What do you think tempted Potiphar's wife? Granted, it's hard to know what sorts of interactions she had with Joseph. But it's rather obvious who was after who, and Joseph was a much younger, busier, and poor man. What aspect of his being do you think caused her to lust after him?

We do not know why she chose to seduce Joseph.  But you are hard pressed to prove here that this example proves that women are just a visual as men in sexual attraction.  I am a little older than you and have been around a while, and have talked to several over the years on this very subject.  Remember, I do have three daughters older than you, almost one could be your mother~she will be 47 in July. I know a little about women~also having four sisters.  Women like Potiphar's wife, knew the results of sexually intercourse by having already laid with a man~and that very thing could had been the means of her going after Joseph more so than his physical attraction.  It is a fact that women are much more aroused sexually by the way one treats them and the words used toward them than visual.  Years will teach wisdom in this area any day of the week.  Now that being said, it does not means that good looks and a nice well built man is not a turn on to some degree, for it has to be, but totally different than men.  Words play almost no part in stimulation toward a man, and you do not really have to treat them special, just as long as they can enjoy thie body, to relieve themselves.  I have talk to too many men over the years, and also have lived as a man for almost 67 years.

I have a meeting within thirty minutes that I must attend.  Maybe more later.

[chosenone]

Chosenone:

I wasn't going to reply, but just for the fyi: no, I will not respond to that kind of matter-of-fact arguing that completely ignores what I already put forward. If you have an honest question for me, you can look at the statements I already made and demonstrate that you took them thoroughly into consideration. Peace. ;-)

Where was the argument? Its merely how God made men and women, and we are not the same in this area. 

[JGPS100]

Chosenone:

I wasn't going to reply, but just for the fyi: no, I will not respond to that kind of matter-of-fact arguing that completely ignores what I already put forward. If you have an honest question for me, you can look at the statements I already made and demonstrate that you took them thoroughly into consideration. Peace. ;-)

Well replied.

[DaveW]

I pretty much just spent ten seconds looking at this book to see an example of women (more than one!) appreciating the appearance of a man--Song of Songs isn't a book of the Bible I know so much off the top of my head, but it has plenty of examples of a woman (and as verse 1:5 suggests, OTHER women as well) appreciating a man's appearance as well as a woman's.

That is true thruought the Hebrew Scriptures (OT).  For that reason for the last 2500 years Judaism has held that sex is a WIFE's right and a husband's responsibility.

How about the passages in Ezekiel where Israel and Judah are like women lusting after someone who has "flesh like that of horses?"

Ezekiel 23:20  She lusted after their paramours, whose flesh is like the flesh of donkeys and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

(FYI: "flesh" = male member; "issue" = ejaculate)

Women are shown as VERY visually stimulated in OT scripture.

[chosenone]

Chosenone:

I wasn't going to reply, but just for the fyi: no, I will not respond to that kind of matter-of-fact arguing that completely ignores what I already put forward. If you have an honest question for me, you can look at the statements I already made and demonstrate that you took them thoroughly into consideration. Peace. ;-)

Well replied.

maybe you can tell me where the argument was?

[chosenone]

 ITs up to both men and women to make sure they keep themselves pure in what they look at. I dont stare at men, I dont lust after other men, I dont look at naked or semi naked men, and I cant see why its ok for a man to do the same with women, no matter whether they are single or married, and even more try and justify it by saying that God really doesnt mind    I know that men are far more visually stimulated, which makes it far more important for them to keep themselves pure. I admire and respect men who do this in our sexually promiscuous world, they are quite uncommon.   

[Nevertheless]

I hardly know whether to be annoyed or amused. The truth is, each of us can only express our own experience in this area. We don't know what others of our own gender are really thinking and feeling, and we certainly don't understand the opposite gender!

Chosen, you responded quite matter-of-factly, "Its merely how God made men and women, and we are not the same in this area." without offering any supporting evidence. Cally offered scripture that casts doubt on the idea that men are visual and women are not, but you had no comment about that, you just said that men and women are different in this area because God made them that way. How do we know this? Because you say so!

We need to face the fact that we are not as God made us to be. We are marred by sin, and greatly influenced by the culture in which we live. It is expected by our culture that men are sexually aroused by the sight of naked women. This is a natural, God-given trait that sin has perverted. We are told that men are aroused by the sight of bare breasts, for example, simply because they are males. That is patently false. Consider the cultures in which nothing more than a loincloth is worn by either gender. Are the males in that culture in a constant state of arousal due to the sight of bare breasts all around them? Of course not! There are many more factors involved than simply gender.

It is helpful if we understand that society is, and always has been, dominated by males. Those with the power to shape and control society are male. It is only in very recent history that women have been accepted as scholars, doctors, thinkers, etc. It is males who have decided what women are like, and to a large part, that is what we have become. If we are told something often enough, we believe it, conform to it, and make it true even when there is no basis for it. It's called indoctrination or brain washing.

The problem is, we tend to equate societal norms or the "scientific findings" of men with God's plan.

C.S. Lewis had a few things to say about sexuality in his book Mere Christianity. The following is a short excerpt, more can be read here.

If anyone says that sex, in itself, is bad, Christianity contradicts him at once. But, of course, when people say, "Sex is nothing to be ashamed of," they may mean "the state into which the sexual instinct has now got is nothing to be ashamed of."

If they mean that, I think they are wrong. I think it is everything to be ashamed of. There is nothing to be ashamed of in enjoying your food: there would be everything to be ashamed of if half the world made food the main interest of their lives and spent their time looking at pictures of food and dribbling and smacking their lips. I do not say you and I are individually responsible for the present situation. Our ancestors have handed over to us organisms which are warped in this respect: and we grow up surrounded by propaganda in favour of unchastity. There are people who want to keep our sex instinct inflamed in order to make money out of us. Because, of course, a man with an obsession is a man who has very little sales-resistance. God knows our situation; He will not judge us as if we had no difficulties to overcome. What matters is the sincerity and perseverance of our will to overcome them.

Before we can be cured we must want to be cured. Those who really wish for help will get it; but for many modern people even the wish is difficult. It is easy to think that we want something when we do not really want it. A famous Christian long ago told us that when he was a young man he prayed constantly for chastity; but years later he realised that while his lips had been saying, "Oh Lord, make me chaste," his heart had been secretly adding, "But please don't do it just yet." This may happen in prayers for other virtues too; but there are three reasons why it is now specially difficult for us to desire-let alone to achieve-complete chastity.

In the first place our warped natures, the devils who tempt us, and all the contemporary propaganda for lust, combine to make us feel that the desires we are resisting are so "natural," so "healthy," and so reasonable, that it is almost perverse and abnormal to resist them.
[...]
In the second place, many people are deterred from seriously attempting Christian chastity because they think (before trying) that it is impossible.
[...]
Thirdly, people often misunderstand what psychology teaches about "repressions." It teaches us that "repressed" sex is dangerous.

[chosenone]

I am going on what is happening all around us, and the fact that a large percentage of men look at porn or buy mags of naked and semi naked women. If they didnt get pleasure from that they wouldn't do it and spend money on it, and also they wouldn't get addicted to it.
Its pretty naive to claim that men are not aroused by breasts or whatever and thats why so many women now have breast enlargements, because they understand that man are attracted by them and they get more male attention. Of course in some cultures  there are different sexual attractions, but I am speaking of much of the world.

Its a rare man who isnt attracted by a woman's body, and an ever rarer one who actually has the integrity and morals not to allow himself to indulge this attraction.

[Alan]

We are certainly subject to the cultural traits of the particular society we live in, if we were native north americans the bare breast would mean nothing to us but in a society where these are covered up as sexual body parts, we grow up associating breasts with sex, of course we men will become aroused at the sight of them.