If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[NyawehNyoh]

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My eldest brother (for convenience sake, call him Larry) was ordained to the priesthood in 1965 and remained so for 53 years prior to passing away at the age of 78 in May of 2018.

Larry graduated from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He taught at the University of San Diego and has served in parishes in San Diego, Mexico, Portland, the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation, and Huntington Beach. Larry served as the Director of Pastoral Ministry and the first Rector of the Conventual Church of Our Lady of the Angels at the Franciscan Renewal Center, Scottsdale, Arizona.

In 1973, he served at University of San Diego as an Assistant Professor of Religious Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences. Larry then served as the University Chaplain and Director of Campus Ministry from September 1974 until June 1984.

Larry entered the Franciscan Order to become a Friar in 1987 after serving as a priest of the Diocese of San Diego for 22 years. During his semi-retirement years, Larry, he was a priest at the Mission San Luis Rey in Oceanside, California.

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and the extent of his devotion to The Church. It would also mean that my brother was a minister of darkness rather than light; thus everyone he influenced was led down a path leading directly to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they would be facing a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself serving Christ's best interests, he was only serving himself.
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[NyawehNyoh]

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I sincerely believe that Jesus Christ is a man of integrity who would never knowingly mislead people. In point of fact, I'm convinced that that everything he taught originated with God, whom I also sincerely believe to be a person of integrity who would never knowingly mislead people.

● John 3:34 . . For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit

● John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

● John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me.

● John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jesus, speaking for God, instructed a Samarian woman that she could obtain a living water merely by asking him for it. I've done that; but I don't know whether my deceased brother ever did.

Jesus, yet speaking for God, instructed his countrymen that whoever believes in him would be given to drink of the Spirit within the very core of their being if all they did was approach him for it. I've done that too; but again, I don't know if my deceased brother ever did.

So if John 4:10-14 is true and reliable, and if John 7:37-39 is true and reliable; then I have successfully obtained the living water, and I have also successfully obtained the Spirit within the very core of my being.

The living water and the Spirit, are essential components of my baptism into Jesus' body.

● 1Cor 12:13 . .We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free --and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

The awful irony of the standard Christian baptism is that not everyone who undergoes it will make it to safety when they pass on; and that's because they failed to obtain the Spirit and the living water about which Jesus spoke in John 4:10-14 and John 7:37-39.

NOTE: It's risky to depend upon the standard Christian baptism for obtaining the Spirit and the living water; no, play it safe and do as I have done: speak up for them as Jesus instructed and get the water and the Spirit locked in.

● John 6:37 . . Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me

● Rom 10:13 . . Everyone who calls on the name of The Lord will be saved.
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[NyawehNyoh]

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According to Jesus' statements at John 3:3-8, it's necessary for people to undergo a birth by water and by the Spirit in order to enter and/or see the kingdom of God.

Well; if perchance my deceased brother somehow failed to obtain the water Jesus spoke about to the Samarian women in John 4:10-14, and the Spirit that he spoke of to his countrymen in John 7:37-39, then I would have to conclude that my brother didn't make it to safety when he passed away even after 53 years of life on earth as a Priest/Friar because to my knowledge, there are no exceptions to the rule.
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[Bobby40]

I believe the Catholic view is the most sound on this issue.  Protestants take Scripture to the next level, legalism if you will.  Many other faiths claim if you don't do x, y,... then you are in hell.  They are very quick to make that call.  Interesting enough, the Catholic Church has never once said that anyone is actually in hell, just that it does exist.  The point is that only God makes that call.  Now just because the Bible says something doesn't mean we have the right to say someone is in hell.  The thing is that we are bound by the sacraments, but God is not.  God is God, and a God of mercy, not legalism. 

[skeeter]

  The thing is that we are bound by the sacraments, but God is not.  God is God, and a God of mercy, not legalism.

the catholic sacraments are made up by man, not God.

and the CC is what binds catholics to legalism, not God.

[NyawehNyoh]

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Larry and I didn't grow up together. We had the same father but not the same mother.

I was taken to visit Larry just once when we were both young boys. I did not see him again until I was seventeen when he and our dad gave me a surprise send-off to the Army in August of 1961.

From thence, our lives took very different directions. Larry went on to pursue a vocation with the Catholic Church, and I went on to become a soldier and a welder.

Now the thing is this: Larry entered the priesthood under false pretenses. He never revealed his mother's divorce, nor did he ever reveal that he had siblings. Plus his mom was connected. She managed to get Larry's birth record altered so that her new husband appeared to be Larry's real father.

Larry was ambitious. He wanted to go far with the Catholic Church and figured his chances would be better if Rome didn't know too much about him. Long story short; it was Larry's wish that I keep a distance to avoid the risk of exposure. Larry dropped off the radar, and I lost contact with him for the next 54 years till we Googled him in 2015. In point of fact, were it not for the internet, Larry and I probably never would've found each other again.

Because of all the secrecy; I was unable to speak with my brother about religion till just three years prior to his death via email. However, when I did; Larry, without saying why, went dark and stopped communicating with me; and I only found out about his illness and his death just recently when we Googled him once again.

My one lasting regret is that Larry didn't contact me about his illness so we could've at least said our good-byes before he passed away.
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[NyawehNyoh]

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At Luke 7:40-50, an interesting incident in the Lord's life is told.

A common courtesy extended to guests in people's homes back in Jesus' day was to offer them some water to wash their feet, give them a kiss of greeting, and a dollop of lotion for their hair. I don't know what the problem was, but Jesus' host denied him that whole routine.

One of the common courtesies in our day is that of extending our condolences to someone who's lost a loved one.

Well; I've posted this same topic on several forums across the internet and it's curious to me that so few Christians expressed the slightest sympathy for my loss; which is just common courtesy even among the heathen.

Back in 1997 when we first went online, a man on the old Excite message boards warned me that forums are the armpit of the internet. Turns out he was right. It's a cruel world out here in cyberspace. The internet is a risky place to share one's personal feelings. It's pretty badly infested with heartless critics and thoughtless clods.

Incidentally, the dinner host was a Pharisee. It's interesting that Jesus got more respect from common folk than he did from the religious elite. What is there to be proud of in affiliation with the one true religion when one's sensitivities are those of a beast?
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[seekingHiswisdom]

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At Luke 7:40-50, an interesting incident in the Lord's life is told.

A common courtesy extended to guests in people's homes back in Jesus' day was to offer them some water to wash their feet, give them a kiss of greeting, and a dollop of lotion for their hair. I don't know what the problem was, but Jesus' host denied him that whole routine.

One of the common courtesies in our day is that of extending our condolences to someone who's lost a loved one.

Well; I've posted this same topic on several forums across the internet and it's curious to me that so few Christians expressed the slightest sympathy for my loss; which is just common courtesy even among the heathen.

Back in 1997 when we first went online, a man on the old Excite message boards warned me that forums are the armpit of the internet. Turns out he was right. It's a cruel world out here in cyberspace. The internet is a risky place to share one's personal feelings. It's pretty badly infested with heartless critics and thoughtless clods.

Incidentally, the dinner host was a Pharisee. It's interesting that Jesus got more respect from common folk than he did from the religious elite. What is there to be proud of in affiliation with the one true religion when one's sensitivities are those of a beast?
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Not accepting of your chastisement here. No.

You post a thread titled  ' If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken''

Then offer the opening post including

"I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself serving Christ's best interests, he was only serving himself. "

As most people here know, I am of the belief that there is no "church" that is 100% right and there is no "church" that is 100% wrong. But all churches are wrong about something .......

Does it matter?

Maybe.

But with the inability of man to understand the same sentence as his neighbor or brother, how can it?

Your brother obviously got "the call!"

Other then a few priests I have know over the years who became such because " their mama's" just had to give a son into the RCC, most get a call. Same for nuns and same for ministers.

Two options on this would be a call from God or God forbid, misdirection from Satan.

Now here is a true conundrum..

All of these wonderful men, being called by God, into a myriad of churches that often are quite opposite in their beliefs and teachings
with the only common denominator being that of Jesus.

The RCC bible with additional books that are not in the Protestant came from somewhere.... yet are the Protestant ones wrong in light that God calls Protestants to preach as well?

I will stop here with this as I believe you are seeing where I am headed with this line of thinking.

So enter in a mess of people, each seeking a comfortable fit for themselves in their worship of God. The RCC , Cof C and Presbyterians are not on the same page very much.... add in all the others and is fairly a free for all at times.

Are their parishioners wrong to be attending services of a man of the cloth who may believe and teach something that you yourself  disagree with?

I say NO.

I firmly believe that if you are a member of a church, or even a non active one... that as you have followed the basic of what you have been taught within the worship of Jesus and God, that God will accept things. Even if your church is later proven wrong. Because if you have and put your faith in Christ.... that is all that matters.

There simply are no 2 churches that teach or are the same. Heck, there are not 2 churches of the same denomination that necessarily do things the same.

So, unless your brother truly crossed a line in faith, being a RCC is alright.

Now, as to how he got where he did... the fibs etc. We can hope he repented of that. We know God hates a liar. ( Yes indeed. Is a trouble for me at my age, still)

Or if your brother was one of the RCCs who believe Mary was an equal co redeemer with Jesus.

Remember  you are not your brothers keeper. You lived totally separate lives.

You do have my sympathies. It is never easy to lose a family member. Even a distant one.

[Catholica]

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My eldest brother (for convenience sake, call him Larry) was ordained to the priesthood in 1965 and remained so for 53 years prior to passing away at the age of 78 in May of 2018.

Larry graduated from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He taught at the University of San Diego and has served in parishes in San Diego, Mexico, Portland, the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation, and Huntington Beach. Larry served as the Director of Pastoral Ministry and the first Rector of the Conventual Church of Our Lady of the Angels at the Franciscan Renewal Center, Scottsdale, Arizona.

In 1973, he served at University of San Diego as an Assistant Professor of Religious Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences. Larry then served as the University Chaplain and Director of Campus Ministry from September 1974 until June 1984.

Larry entered the Franciscan Order to become a Friar in 1987 after serving as a priest of the Diocese of San Diego for 22 years. During his semi-retirement years, Larry, he was a priest at the Mission San Luis Rey in Oceanside, California.

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and the extent of his devotion to The Church. It would also mean that my brother was a minister of darkness rather than light; thus everyone he influenced was led down a path leading directly to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they would be facing a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself serving Christ's best interests, he was only serving himself.
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If Catholicism is "mistaken" or any version of Christianity is mistaken, then the Bible is not really a reliable source of Truth, and Jesus may not have been God and Jesus' teachings on Hell may have been false, which means that Hell might not actually exist and your brother therefore could not possibly be there.

If Catholicism is mistaken then your brother lived a good life serving that which he believed to be serving the True God, and probably did a lot of good in many people's lives in ways that weren't always spiritual. 

Catholicism is the only faith with the antiquity to reasonably have leaders who received the promise of Christ, which was that He would send the Holy Spirit who would "lead them into all truth".  And of course, Jesus, being God did just that, and eventually that same Church that received both the promise and the gift of the Holy Spirit took those words and wrote them down, which then became what we know as the New Testament.  So without the Church that Jesus founded the NT wouldn't exist, and the only reasonable conclusion one can make is that was the Catholic Church, because the Bible also says that Jesus would found His Church and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it.

[4WD]

If Catholicism is "mistaken" or any version of Christianity is mistaken, then the Bible is not really a reliable source of Truth

The Bible is not accorded reliability as a source of truth based upon the one or ones who managed to preserve it.

[Texas Conservative]

If Catholicism is "mistaken" or any version of Christianity is mistaken, then the Bible is not really a reliable source of Truth, and Jesus may not have been God and Jesus' teachings on Hell may have been false, which means that Hell might not actually exist and your brother therefore could not possibly be there.

If Catholicism is mistaken then your brother lived a good life serving that which he believed to be serving the True God, and probably did a lot of good in many people's lives in ways that weren't always spiritual. 

Catholicism is the only faith with the antiquity to reasonably have leaders who received the promise of Christ, which was that He would send the Holy Spirit who would "lead them into all truth".  And of course, Jesus, being God did just that, and eventually that same Church that received both the promise and the gift of the Holy Spirit took those words and wrote them down, which then became what we know as the New Testament.  So without the Church that Jesus founded the NT wouldn't exist, and the only reasonable conclusion one can make is that was the Catholic Church, because the Bible also says that Jesus would found His Church and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it.

The EOC disagrees on the history part.

[NyawehNyoh]

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You do have my sympathies. It is never easy to lose a family member. Even a distant one.

Thank you. I appreciate your regard.
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[NyawehNyoh]

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● Phil 2:12 . . So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling

Rome's interpretation of that passage pretty much echoes Santa Claus' holiday practices. For example the lyrics from the classic jingle: Santa Claus Is Coming To Town.

You better watch out, you better not cry,
Better not pout, I'm telling you why:
Santa Claus is coming to town

He's making a list, and checking it twice;
Gonna find out who's naughty and nice:
Santa Claus is coming to town.

He sees you when you're sleeping,
He knows when you're awake,
He knows if you've been bad or good,
So be good for goodness sake!

There's no grace in that song-- none at all --no generosity, no altruism, no kindness, no charity, no love, no peace, no understanding, no sympathy, no patience, no tolerance, no courtesy, no compassion, no forgiveness, viz: there are no gifts in Santa's bag; only merit awards for those who prove themselves worthy enough to deserve them.

But we know from other passages that an exemption from the sum of all fears isn't a merit award, rather; it's a totally free-of-charge rescue from the wrath of God by means of the ransom that Christ himself paid with his own life's blood rather than out of the sinner's pockets, so to speak. In point of fact the Greek word soteria, from which is translated "salvation" means rescue, i.e. remove from peril.

But now once the sinner is removed from the peril of the sum of all fears, he's expected to begin developing a rapport with God and a life of piety (a.k.a. holiness) which serves an altogether different purpose in the plan of salvation than escaping the wrath of God.

The phrase "fear and trembling" was one of Paul's favorite colloquialisms; for example:

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling." (1Cor 2:3-4)

And another:

"Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; not with eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, with goodwill doing service, as to The Lord, and not to men" (Eph 6:5-8)

"fear, and in trembling" doesn't mean Paul recommends shivering in terror and anxiety like a frightened gerbil; but that a believer's attitude should be free of pride, arrogance, and conceit, i.e. free of a superiority complex and/or a master-race mentality; for example:

Paul was very courteous to the Corinthians, and made himself of no reputation at all, even though he was one of The Lord's hand-picked apostles and they were a bunch of pagan heathens at the time who deserved nothing but the cold shoulder. Paul's attitude rubbed off on the Corinthians because they in turn deferred to Paul's associates with fear and trembling just as he had treated them all at one time.

"I had boasted to [Titus] about you, and you have not embarrassed me. But just as everything we said to you was true, so our boasting about you to Titus has proved to be true as well. And his affection for you is all the greater when he remembers that you were all obedient, receiving him with fear and trembling." (2Cor 7:14-15)

So then, what we're talking about here with "fear and trembling" is honor, respect, submission, deference, and reverence rather than terror and anxiety; and it's actually one of the Beatitudes.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 5:3)

One of the basic components of "poor in spirit" is courtesy; which is grossly lacking on many of today's forums. People on the internet are just too cruel to each other; even people wearing the Christian label. Apparently what they don't know is that their behavior reflects on Christ and makes him look bad.

Take for example David's tryst with Bathsheba that resulted in the death of her husband. Nathan the prophet informed David that his conduct reflected on The Lord so that instead of bringing glory to God, his conduct brought disgrace. (2Sam 12:14)

"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matt 5:16)
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