Am I lost in this forum?

[the_last_gunslinger]

Jesus is not even a literal Son but a means by which we can understand His relationship to the Godhead in terms of human understanding

I don't understand this reasoning. If Jesus is literally God, why does he not say that, rather than claiming numerous times that he is the "Son of God?"

So the actual question is this

Is Satan like Jesus in any way

The answer is no, Satan is a created being and Jesus is not

They are nothing alike other than that they both came from God. Claiming that Satan is Christ's spirit brother in no way lowers the status of Christ, nor does it enhance Satan's position.

Jesus is God


Satan is not God or a god

There really isn't any argument from my perspective. Jesus is God, in that he exhibits all the traits of God, and is united in perfect truth and harmony and righteousness. We disagree on what this means, of course, as I believe that Jesus actually is the Son of God, and as Christ stated in the Bible, "the father is greater than I."

And you are most correct in your second statement. Satan is not God, or a god. He is a fallen angel, a demon.

[gospel]

I don't understand this reasoning. If Jesus is literally God, why does he not say that, rather than claiming numerous times that he is the "Son of God?"

Because the Gospel is not given according to the wisdom and understanding of men. Therefore trying to understand it on the basic of human wisdom leads one into understanding through one's intellect rather than by The Holy Spirit whom is also God.

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand Luke 8:10

Even though you see the words, even though you hear the words they cannot be understood without the Holy Spirit.

Ask Him to reveal the scriptures to you, ask Him to show you in the scriptures who Jesus is, ask Him to explain the Trinity to you.

If you are sincere and you really desire to know, the Holy Spirit will open your understanding to see Jesus as He is

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9

Jesus is not speaking figuratively as you or I would be saying the same thing. However even on a human level that is a powerfully strong statement.

When you have seen me, you have seen my father...think about it!

Powerful, even on a human level, that is an extremely bold thing to say, so bold most of us could not say it referring to our human fathers much less God...
...but here we have The Lord Jesus telling His disciples when they have seen Him they have seen Father.

This means Jesus is all the God any of us will ever see...period!

Here's why

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For he is The Brilliance of his glory, The Image of his Being, and upholds all things by the power of his word; and he in his Essential Being has accomplished the purification of our sins, and he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.  Hebrews 1:3

You can look it up in another translation, most of the same the same thing but I just happen to like the wording of this one especially for the sake of this discussion.

Jesus is the Image of God

Digressing into human wisdom;through science we know

When people look at you or I what they see is an image...that's all vision really is, light bounces off an object or a person, hits the back of our retina, flips it upside down and wala ....we see an image!

In addition
When people look at you or I, they don't really see you or I because you and I are hidden within the outer tent of flesh called our body.

In other words
There is no way a person can literally see the essence of another person by looking at them. The body is just a tent a, vessel, a vehicle in which we inhabit during our time on earth....an earth suit so to speak.

Jesus is the image of God, the perfect reflection of God, the exact representation, the exact imprint of His nature, whom expresses the very character of God in other words Jesus is perfectly one with God in the way we are perfectly one with ourselves

John 1:3-5

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

I'll just leave you with this and for the rest you'll just have to pray for yourself and ask The Holy Spirit to show you Jesus

And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Once you recognize Him you will see Him as God, then you will never need to see Him again and will never doubt again that Jesus is God come in the Flesh

[larry2]

Matthew 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Now just what did Jesus do to be called the Son of God? He made Him of no reputation and became man, even though He is the One that created everything; including Satan.

Philippians 2:6  Who (Jesus), being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Philippians 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
 
Christ the Creator.

Colossians 1:14-19 
14  In whom we have redemption through his blood (Jesus), even the forgiveness of sins:
15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16  For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

[Thankfulldad]

gospel...Larry2...Amen and God Bless you both

[the_last_gunslinger]

Because the Gospel is not given according to the wisdom and understanding of men. Therefore trying to understand it on the basic of human wisdom leads one into understanding through one's intellect rather than by The Holy Spirit whom is also God.

So Christ intentionally gave us a misleading riddle, so we would have to pray about the truth? I  think that, if the Trinity was correct, it would be much more understandable if Jesus actually told us what it meant. He wouldn't routinely refer to himself as the only begotten son of God, someone who does, not his will, but the will of the father who sent him.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Is there any indication that he is not speaking figuratively? To me, this verse doesn't even espouse trinitarianism, it sounds more like modalism. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a trinitarian believe that the father and the son are separate personages, yet both are fully God? Maybe it would be easier to discuss if I knew exactly what your definition of what the Trinity is.

Jesus is the Image of God

This may be true, but Genesis also states that God made man in His image. Therefore, human kind is also in the image of God. That does not mean that we are also God.

Jesus is the image of God, the perfect reflection of God, the exact representation, the exact imprint of His nature, whom expresses the very character of God in other words Jesus is perfectly one with God in the way we are perfectly one with ourselves

This actually doesn't sound terribly different from LDS doctrine. I've heard our beliefs described as a "social trinity," and I actually like that term. We believe also that Christ is the perfect reflection of God, fully embodying those qualities needed for godhood. We simply believe that this unity, this oneness is in purpose and will, not one in substance.

[mrhide]

Quotes of  Gunslinger
We don't hold the Bible to be inerrant like most Christians do, though inerrancy means different things with us. We do believe that some parts of the Bible may have been altered or changed, rather by careless translation or by wicked men hoping to imbue that sacred text with their own conception of what one should believe.

That's not to say we don't believe the Bible to be the word of God, just that we believe it may be incomplete,

In regard to The Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith said it was the "most correct book," not that it was perfect


QUESTION FOR GUNSLINGER
Out of curiosity, do you know, or can you point me to a reference, as to which verses of the Bible the LDS Church states contain error?
This is kind of a hard thing to support, because we believe a majority of the error lies in subtraction from the book, rather than addition. So it's pretty hard to point out error in lost passages. For instance, take Mathew 16:19 which reads:

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be
loosed in heaven.

We believe the true meaning of this passage is lost, and that it is a reference of the sealing power of the Priesthood, the power to bind families together, so that they may be bound here and in heaven.

There are other obvious examples of error such as the differing accounts of Judas's death, but those kinds of errors are fairly inconsequential and we have received no revelation telling us which account is correct.





[color=green]To Gunslinger from mrhide

I am going to try and sum up the points that I have the most interest in:

1   Mormons and You believe in the Bible but that it has errors that are consequential

2   The Book of Mormon is the "most correct book

[the_last_gunslinger]

I am going to try and sum up the points that I have the most interest in:

1   Mormons and You believe in the Bible but that it has errors that are consequential

2   The Book of Mormon is the "most correct book

[mrhide]

Quote of mrhide
It is also interesting that the Mormons believe that the errors in the Bible are from errors that lie in subtractions. It is going to be hard sell to get Christians to believe that God would allow subtractions from His word for so many centuries which would result in so many people being deceived. How does the Mormon religion explain the credentials for those that claim that the bible has subtractions?

Reply by GunslingerLet me make this clear: in their purest  forms, as they came from the pen of ancient prophets, the Bible was perfect. But wicked men were in charge of this thing, they altered or subtracted things to fit more with their view. It's not that God allowed them to as much as it is that God gave everyone free will, and it was through this free will that someone could make the decision to alter the Bible.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by credentials, though. If you mean those church leaders that teach the Bible could have errors, their credentials are that they are prophets and apostles of God.



To Gunslinger
This is all going to boil down to what we believe. You can believe that God would allow the "Wicked men altered or subtracted things to fit their view

[the_last_gunslinger]

To Gunslinger
This is all going to boil down to what we believe. You can believe that God would allow the "Wicked men altered or subtracted things to fit their view

[mrhide]

Reply by Gunslinger
I'm curious. How do you think God would have prevented wicked men from altering his word? Would he have killed them? Would he have literally written the book itself?
REPLY by Mrhide
It does not matter how I think that God would have prevented wicked men from altering His word. What does matter is that the word of God says. The word of God says  He prevented wicked (those that conspired to crucify Jesus) men from altering His truth for the offer of salvation for all mankind (Christ's sacrificial death on the cross)



Reply by Gunslinger
It's not that God is unproductive of His word; it's that the wickedness of Man reached such a point that no one had the authority to act for God.
God does not need the authority of mankind to protect His truth

Reply by Gunslinger
I don't see also how someone's status of an apostle is predicated on whether they claim that parts of the Bible are incorrect. That's an accepted fact by nearly all reputable scholars. One need only look to conflicting accounts of Judas's death or Paul's vision to see that.

The way that Judas died does not change any significant Christian doctrine.

Would you mind specifying exactly which scriptures are incorrect that are SIGNIFICANT in changing significant Christian doctrine such as repentance, forgiveness, salvation, grace, etc?  




Reply by Gunslinger
if you believe that God is so protecting of His word that he would not allow it to be altered, wouldn't he also be protective of it enough so that it is plain enough to avoid all the contention and conflicting interpretations of the Bible?

God protects His truths but does not take away mankind's free will to interpret even if those interpretations are conflicting of the Bible. This point of God not takeing away mankind's free will to interpret is demonstrated in scriptures; in Matthew 19:7-8, this scripture reveals that mankind's (Pharisees) free will was not taken away. The Pharisees interpreted the word of God through Moses to justify thier harsh and unloving treatment of wives. Jesus corrected them.

Matthew 19
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

[the_last_gunslinger]

It does not matter how I think that God would have prevented wicked men from altering His word. What does matter is that the word of God says. The word of God says  He prevented wicked (those that conspired to crucify Jesus) men from altering His truth for the offer of salvation for all mankind (Christ's sacrificial death on the cross)

And the Bible also says that there was to be a famine of hearing the word of the Lord, when the true gospel message would not be found on earth. This fits nicely into the theory that men changed the Bible.

God does not need the authority of mankind to protect His truth

Clearly. I never said that. But Mankind does need the authority of God to preach his truth. No one on earth had the Priesthood at this time; so no one was authorized to speak for God.

The way that Judas died does not change any significant Christian doctrine.

That's irrelevant. If God was going to ensure his Word (the Bible) was perfect, why would he allow inconsistencies of any kind? It weakens the stance of the Bible. Surely a God that would make sure his Word is unaltered has within his power the ability to ensure complete accuracy, down to the minutest detail.

Would you mind specifying exactly which scriptures are incorrect that are SIGNIFICANT in changing significant Christian doctrine such as repentance, forgiveness, salvation, grace, etc? 

As I've stated earlier in this thread, most of the changes are in either subtraction or misunderstanding. Take Christ's words to the Apostle Peter, when he gave unto him the power to bind on earth and in heaven. This is a pretty vague statement, and on reading the Bible alone, no one could accurately come up with the intent behind it. Through modern revelation, however, we know that this is in relation to eternal marriage, that marriages bound on earth by the Priesthood are also bound in heaven.

I need to make this explicitly clear, though. I in no way intend to disparage the Bible. It is of tremendous value and I believe the important parts of salvation are contained therein. But it is still in need of clarifications which can only come from additional scriptures and an open channel with God. If that were not so, all men would reach the same conclusion if they read the same text.

God protects His truths but does not take away mankind's free will to interpret even if those interpretations are conflicting of the Bible. This point of God not takeing away mankind's free will to interpret is demonstrated in scriptures; in Matthew 19:7-8, this scripture reveals that mankind's (Pharisees) free will was not taken away. The Pharisees interpreted the word of God through Moses to justify thier harsh and unloving treatment of wives. Jesus corrected them.

Exactly. God does not take away free will. So if the wicked had risen in power, heck, even if they are merely misguided with good intentions, they have the free will to alter things to fit their vantage point. Remember how the Bible came into being: various texts being collected from all over, being put to a vote and being included in the present canon. The men who made these decisions were not prophets of God, had no God-given authority to make this call. So why is it so surprising that some things may have been lost?

[mrhide]

Mrhide QuoteIt does not matter how I think that God would have prevented wicked men from altering His word. What does matter is that the word of God says. The word of God says  He prevented wicked (those that conspired to crucify Jesus) men from altering His truth for the offer of salvation for all mankind (Christ's sacrificial death on the cross)
By Gunslinger
And the Bible also says that there was to be a famine of hearing the word of the Lord, when the true gospel message would not be found on earth. This fits nicely into the theory that men changed the Bible

No it does not fit nicely. A famine of hearing the Bible is entirely different than "Changed the Bible