What happened to Enoch? Would love some serious input on this.

[Rella]

It is surly a mystery.

Even the Holy Bible tells us in Genesis 5:24  King James Bible "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

NOW. Can the bible lie? I submit it is possible based on who is writing what they perceive to be the truth, but again NO. As we have been told by "the experts" that the bible is the "inerrant inspired Word from God."

We have also been told that no one has gone to be with or see the father because the time for that will be after Jesus' 2nd coming. .. and when God decides the end is at last. (Please... Preterists... let this one rest.)

So the question is... When God took Enoch, to where did he take him?

Upper Sheol , often referred to as paradise?

One thing sure. If we can believe the entire bible, he did not make it to the "third heaven" before Jesus.

[RB]

It is surly a mystery.

It should not be a mystery to any of us. The scripture before saying God took him said... What follows was taken from John Calvin's notes on Genesis, which I thought was as good as I have heard and could do myself.

And Enoch walked with God~ "Undoubtedly Enoch is honored with peculiar praise among the men of his own age, when it is said that he walked with God. Yet both Seth and Enoch, and Cainan, and Mahalaleel, and Jared, were then living, whose piety was celebrated in the former part of the chapter. As that age could not be ruder or barbarous, which had so many most excellent teachers; we hence infer, that the probity of this holy man, whom the Holy Spirit exempted from the common order, was rare and almost singular. Meanwhile, a method is here pointed out of guarding against being carried away by the perverse manners of those with whom we are conversant. For public custom is as a violent tempest; both because we easily suffer ourselves to be led hither and thither by the multitude, and because every one thinks what is commonly received must be right and lawful; just as swine contract an itching from each other; nor is there any contagion worse, and more loathsome than that of evil examples. Hence we ought the more diligently to notice the brief description of a holy life, contained in the words, "Enoch walked with God." Let those, then, who please, glory in living according to the custom of others; yet the Spirit of God has established a rule of living well and rightly, by which we depart from the examples of men who do not form their life and manners according to the law of God. For he who, pouring contempt upon the word of God, yields himself up to the imitation of the world, must be regarded as living to the devil. Moreover, (as I have just now hinted,) all the rest of the patriarchs are not deprived of the praise of righteousness; but a remarkable example is set before us in the person of one man, who stood firmly in the season of most dreadful dissipation; in order that, if we wish to live rightly and orderly, we may learn to regard God more than men. For the language which Moses uses is of the same force as if he had said, that Enoch, lest he should be drawn aside by the corruptions of men, had respect to God alone; so that with a pure conscience, as under his eyes, he might cultivate uprightness.

And he was not, for God took him~ He must be shamelessly contentious, who will not acknowledge that something extraordinary is here pointed out. All are, indeed, taken out of the world by death; but Moses plainly declares that Enoch was taken out of the world by an unusual mode, and was received by the Lord in a miraculous manner. For לקה(lakah) among the Hebrews signifies 'to take to one's self,' as well as simply to take. But, without insisting on the word, it suffices to hold fast the thing itself; namely, that Enoch, in the middle period of life, suddenly, and in an unexampled method, vanished from the sight of men, because the Lord took him away, as we read was also done with respect to Elijah. Since, in the translation of Enoch, an example of immortality was exhibited; there is no doubt that God designed to elevate the minds of his saints with certain faith before their death; and to mitigate, by this consolation, the dread which they might entertain of death, seeing they would know that a better life was elsewhere laid up for them. It is, however, remarkable that Adam himself was deprived of this support of faith and of comfort. For since that terrible judgment of God, 'Thou shalt die the death,' was constantly sounding in his ears, he very greatly needed some solace, in order that he might in death have something else to reflect upon than curse and destruction. But it was not till about one hundred and fifty years after his death, that the translation of Enoch took place, which was to be as a visible representation of a blessed resurrection; by which, if Adam had been enlightened, he might have girded himself with equanimity for his own departure. Yet, since the Lord, in inflicting punishment, had moderated its rigour, and since Adam himself had heard from his own mouth, what was sufficient to afford him no slight alleviation; contented with this kind of remedy, it became his duty patiently to bear, both the continual cross in this world, and also the bitter and sorrowful termination of his life. But whereas others were not taught in the same manner by a manifest oracle to hope for victory over the serpent, there was, in the translation of Enoch, an instruction for all the godly, that they should not keep their hope confined within the boundaries of this mortal life. For Moses shows that this translation was a proof of the Divine love towards Enoch, by connecting it immediately with his pious and upright life. Nevertheless, to be deprived of life is not in itself desirable. It follows, therefore, that he was taken to a better abode; and that even when he was a sojourner in the world, he was received into a heavenly country; as the Apostle, in the Epistle to the Hebrews, (Hebrews 11:5,) plainly teaches. Moreover, if it be inquired, why Enoch was translated, and what is his present condition; I answer, that his transition was by a peculiar privilege, such as that of other men would have been, if they had remained in their first state. For although it was necessary for him to put off what was corruptible; yet was he exempt from that violent separation, from which nature shrinks. In short, his translation was a placid and joyful departure out of the world."  ~John Calvin

One thing sure. If we can believe the entire bible, he did not make it to the "third heaven" before Jesus.

Rella, why not? OT saints walked with God; were friends of God; they only could have done so, by God imputing Jesus' righteousness to them, as David sung about in Psalm 32. Jesus' death and resurrection secured their LEGAL right to life, even though in the mind/will of God, all was finished before the world begun! All of the church in both testaments were loved by God from the beginning as he viewed them IN CHRIST. Elijah was CAUGHT UP by a whirlwind into heaven!  Who appeared with Christ on the mount of transfiguration? Moses and Elijah, where did they come from? From the presence of God, or from the third heaven, even though God fills heaven and earth!   

[Rella]

It should not be a mystery to any of us. The scripture before saying God took him said... What follows was taken from John Calvin's notes on Genesis, which I thought was as good as I have heard and could do myself.

Rella, why not? Why If we can believe the entire bible, Did he not  make it to the "third heaven" before Jesus.

First one would need to be a die hard follower of John Calvin to believe his beliefs on this. I am not. What he has written on this is by his personal assumption and not that born of scripture.

Next: Why not? Why not If we can believe the entire bible, he did not make it to the "third heaven" before Jesus?  For the reason that things that Christ has said on the subject seem to be contrary to what Calvin believed.

Do you recall when Jesus  made the shocking statement that goes directly against the common teachings of churches in our time... and that includes Calvin.

John 3:13 says:

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, The Son of Man".

Did you read that? More over, do you understand it.

He was alive and walking on earth long after all the righteous people who have ever lived, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, King David, the prophets, and others, who did not go to heaven after their death.

No one has ascended to heaven. It is suggested Elijah did, but then was returned to earth, after being given instructions.

Only Jesus Christ went to heaven!

If there's one being who can tell us the truth about heaven, then it should be Christ.

He is the best and perfect witness who can provide us a precise picture of what heaven is like. Since He came from heaven, He should be able to tell us whether there are people in heaven or not. Yet His remark was quite surprising because He said NO ONE HAS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN.

So this means that all the righteous people who have ever lived, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, King David, the prophets, and others, did not go to heaven after their death. (Note: I did not say Paradise)

Do you remember what Jesus said in John 8:21?

"Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come."

This was the time when Jesus was predicting his departure. He was saying that He will be returning to heaven and they can't go to that place.

That's what Jesus said to the Jews. Now, what did He say to the Disciples, His inner circle of friends?

John 13:33 is clear...

Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

He reiterated to His disciples that they can't go with Him to Heaven, just like what He said to the Jews.

Imagine this:

The disciples could not go to heaven when they die.

NOW: before you jump in here and say Enoch did not die but was translated.... or taken. As was Elijah.

Genesis 5:24
"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah are the only two people God took to heaven without them dying.

But it really does not say that. Genesis 5:24 tells us, "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."

Second Kings 2:11 tells us, "Suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

It describes that Elijah went to heaven but then at some point was returned.

Enoch is described as a man who "walked with God for 300 years" (Genesis 5:22–23). But we are not told where God took him.

Elijah was perhaps the most powerful of God's prophets in the Old Testament.

Obviously God had a plan for at least Elijah because of what is said in Malachi 4: 5-6 ...5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Back to Enoch... the subject of this thread

Genesis 5:24 tells us that "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." Hebrews 11:5 adds: "By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, 'and was not found, because God had taken him'; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

Some erroneously jump to the conclusion that Enoch was taken up into heaven, but notice the Bible nowhere says this. It simply says that God "took him." It does not specify where he was taken.

Jesus Christ later states in the Gospel of John that "Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). One of the points He makes is that one passage of the Bible cannot contradict another passage.

This same Gospel of John reveals a startling fact very pertinent to this matter: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven" (John 3:13).

Clearly, Jesus Christ was the only human being who had ascended into heaven. The phrase "who is in heaven" lets us know that this was written by the apostle John after Christ's return to heaven. So even as late as this statement, no human being—and that includes Enoch—had ascended into heaven.

Now I will stop at this point for repetition is not needed for what is clear.

And it remains a mystery.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

According to tradition, the "two witnesses" in Revelation are Enoch and Elijah, because those two were taken to heaven without dying.

Jarrod

[3 Resurrections]

Tradition is wrong on this one, Jarrod.

Rella, you are exactly on target on everything you just wrote.  Enoch was never said in scripture to be taken to the third heaven in his translated body until Christ had gone there FIRST as the "Firstborn" and the "Firstbegotten". This was absolutely critical that Christ be the FIRST to ascend to the Father in the third heaven on his resurrection day and be established as the saints' "Great High Priest".  Only then could the souls of righteous dead men be allowed to enter that third heaven when they died.  Before that point in time in AD 33, the souls of the righteous had their abode in the Paradise portion of Hades. 

That is what the verse in Revelation 14 is referring to when it says "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord FROM HENCEFORTH...".  The blessed change of destination for the SOULS of dead believers after Christ's resurrection-day ascension is that they no longer went to Hades, but were  "present with the Lord" at their death.

And as for any physical BODIES of the glorified resurrected believers (or the single case of the translated Enoch), they would only be allowed access to heaven's temple when the 7 plagues of Revelation were finished, according to Revelation 15:8. 

Neither was Elijah taken to the third heaven by the whirlwind.  Elijah was only taken "AS IT WERE into heaven", as the LXX says.  Elijah was only transported into the SKY by the whirlwind to another location in the world, where he wrote that letter to King Jehoram around ten years later in 2 Chronicles 21.

[Rella]

According to tradition, the "two witnesses" in Revelation are Enoch and Elijah, because those two were taken to heaven without dying.

Jarrod

Nope... not necessarily. You cannot trust in tradition solely for any answers you may be searching for..

3Rs is spot on with..." Elijah was only transported into the SKY by the whirlwind to another location in the world, where he wrote that letter to King Jehoram around ten years later in 2 Chronicles 21".. ( or at a minimum of at least 4 years after the fact based on  studies and readings)

While the text in 2 Kings 2:11 seems clear: "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

There is a detail about Elijah in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15 which unravels this traditional story — a letter which, upon thorough study, has to have been physically written and sent by Elijah himself after he he allegedly goes to heaven.

12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:

14 Behold, with a great plague will the Lord smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:

15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

Re-read 2 Kings 2:11 and you will see it  does not even affirm that Elijah went "to heaven." As is common in the Bible, the Hebrew term for "heaven" merely conveys the notion of ascending in the direction of heaven, or "skyward." It could also mean the 2nd heaven or as far up as to not be visible to the eye.

Rather than trying to make the Bible fit the traditional narrative is it not  much simpler to understand that God lifted up Elijah with a whirlwind toward the sky and then transported him to some other unknown geographic location (probably in or near Israel)? . There he lived out the rest of his life in quiet retirement, except when he broke his silence with the letter.

It seems this circumstance was not unusual for Elijah. You can see he had a reputation for "vanishing" for extended periods of time (1 Kings 17:2-6... 18:10) and for being transported suddenly and supernaturally by the Holy Spirit to other geographic locations (1 Kings 18:11-12). In fact, the Holy Spirit also whisked away Ezekiel (Ezek. 3:12-14) and Philip from the wilderness (Acts 8:39-40).... so it was not unheard of.

Then, not only did the 50 eyewitnesses all believe the Holy Spirit dropped Elijah off in another valley (2 Kings 2:16), the ancient Jews and the early church fathers commonly held this view, and the Eastern Orthodox Church still does.

2 Kings 2:16-17

16And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.

17And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not.

Elijah had the power to make the nations of Israel repent. But his life was short lived because the king had a secret plan to kill him. His enemies plotted to kill him and his family.  Jezebel (Ahab's wife) was trying to kill him. Elijah fled into the desert, but he was not killed. He was sent to Mount Horeb where he was met by an angel. There, God spoke to him and gave him new tasks to do. This proved that God was not finished with Elijah yet. And to get him out of times of trouble, until he finished his assignments, would God not have provided a way and protection?


What we do know is Elijah may have been taken to heaven before he died. However, it is unclear whether he went to the third heaven or not. In fact, Jesus said that only one person has gone up to the third heaven. Elijah may have entered Heaven in a bodily form, but that is surly doubtful.... however,  he may have been taken to a special abode near God.

But once again I digress from Enoch.

Read Hebrews 11:5 and then read it again. (note; all verses are KJV simply because of the members who will read or believe none other)

Hebrews 11:5

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

But you said something in your reply above, as I want to go in a different direction away from Enoch's translation from the moment. And wherever in the world he may have been moved.....

YOU SAID

Posted by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh « on: Yesterday at 21:39:17 »

According to tradition, the "two witnesses" in Revelation are Enoch and Elijah, because those two were taken to heaven without dying.

Jarrod

According to tradition..... from the Bible Study Tools:

Tradition [N]
any kind of teaching, written or spoken, handed down from generation to generation. In Mark 7:3 Mark 7:9 Mark 7:13 , Colossians 2:8 , this word refers to the arbitrary interpretations of the Jews. In 2 Thessalonians 2:15 ; 3:6 , it is used in a good sense. Peter ( 1 Peter 1:18 ) uses this word with reference to the degenerate Judaism of the "strangers scattered" whom he addresses (Compare Acts 15:10 ; Matthew 15:2-6 ; Galatians 1:14 ).

IOW... proof is not necessary, after a time. (Unless you are talking about the flood, or giants  )

I have been coming to the conclusion that Enoch and Elijah are not the two witnesses that is mentioned in Rev. 11:

First ... there are those diehards who claim Moses and Elijah  are them because they completed very similar miracles. And they appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration, and Elijah fulfilled the role of a prophet during his time here on earth, very similar to what we see in the two witnesses.

Only thing we know for certain the bible does not say, and we shall wait to see.

NOW...Why I am not a supporter of the Enoch and Elijah witness group is....

And 1 Corinthians 15 states at Jesus' 2nd coming two things must take place:

1.   The dead in Christ are raise from their graves (1 Corinthians 15:23).
2.   And we will be changed ( 1 Corinthians 15:51-52); both, whether living or dead, become immortal (and vs :53).

Verse 53 is key.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption

Especially in context of these prominent Scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:50-54)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

No one can see God and live, with a natural body that is. Job said: And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God... Job 11:26

At present the bodies of those who are dead in Christ are separated from their soul and spirit. Their souls and spirits are now with God in Heaven (Revelation 6:9-10... 2 Corinthians 5:8 ...Ecclesiastes 12:7), while their body are given to death and decay. When Jesus returns, each soul and spirit will be reunited with its immortal resurrected body.

Now to get back to Enoch and Elijah. How does all this support that Elijah and Enoch cannot be the two witnesses?

The beast (antichrist) who comes out of the abyss and  kills the two witnesses (Revelation 11:7).

Their bodies lie in the street for 3 days and then God resurrects, and then calls them up.

Since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15:50 above) IF Enoch and Elijah both had "gone to heaven before death they must have been changed (new bodies) before they went to heaven and met God face-to-face.

Consider that we who are alive and remain, who are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, are changed—into what? A body that is immortal and which cannot die (1 Corinthians 15:54-55).

Hence, Elijah and Enoch, IF they  were translated  without dying were taken up, as Hebrews 11:5 says of Enoch. [size=11pt]This means they would have new bodies—immortal and incorruptible, hence they could not die.[/size] The two witnesses, however, die at the hands of the beast.


So there you have it: the two witnesses cannot be Enoch and Elijah, nor Enoch and Moses.







[/size]

[Texas Conservative]

I'll go with tradition.  None of the points made were very convincing.  No specific time and date or corresponding time of reigning king was given in 2 Kings 2.

[Rella]

[DaveW]

One thing sure. If we can believe the entire bible, he did not make it to the "third heaven" before Jesus.

I submit that terms such as "before" are irrelevant when you are talking about eternity.

Do not try to tie the eternal chronology with our limited time/space existence.  The bible says God sees the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) SO both are visible to HIM simultaneously. 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

This was absolutely critical that Christ be the FIRST to ascend to the Father in the third heaven on his resurrection day and be established as the saints'

The Father isn't in the 3rd heaven in Enoch. He's in the 10th heaven.

Enoch is in the 3rd heaven.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

You cannot trust in tradition solely for any answers you may be searching for..

[snip snip let's keep this short]

When I look for connections in my Bible, it looks like Elijah and Moses both died/ascended in the same place - Mount Nebo.  Jesus' transfiguration also seems to be there, hence the appearance of the two ascended prophets.

There's a strong connection between pairs of prophets, especially look at the meaning of those names...

Moses -> Joshua (Jah saves)
Elijah -> Elisha (El saves)
John -> Jesus (to save)

Who are the 2 witnesses in Revelation?  I don't know.  It seemed worth talking about though.

Jarrod

[Reformer]

Rella:

   Your Geneses 5:24 passage is interesting. I'm only now getting around to adding a few of my remarks. "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" [KJV].

    In the English Standard Version, the Hebrew writer is a little clearer than the KJV. "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him" [Heb. 11:5].

    Enoch's faithfulness was rewarded by a translation to a heavenly domain, whether Heaven itself or one of God's other domains, without first becoming a victim of death. God took him because He was so pleased with him. Of interest, too, is that Jude, verse 14, cites one of Enoch's prophesies.

    We should not find it necessary to struggle with this miraculous event, for the bottom line strongly asserts that our God performed a gracious miracle—as He has done countless times. If He can part an ocean to allow His people to cross over on dry land, He is equally able to call someone up to His heavenly domain without first becoming a victim of physical death.

He is one Mighty God!

Buff

[3 Resurrections]

I looked up this verse in the Interlinear in Hebrews 11:5 to see what word is actually used there.  Where your ESV translates it as "taken UP", the Interlinear uses forms of the word "metetethe", meaning "to transfer, i.e. transport, exchange, change sides, or pervert.   The idea of this "transport" for Enoch going up to heaven to be in God's presence is adding too much to that one word's intended meaning. 

We have to read this Hebrews 11:5 verse in conjunction with other scriptures which tell us when the glorified bodies of resurrected saints or even the translated body of Enoch were going to be allowed an ascension into God's presence.  As Rella already noted above, John let us know in John 3:13 that NO ONE had yet ascended to heaven at that time except the Son of Man who was then in heaven as that book was being written.   And we are also told in Revelation 15:8 that "NO MAN was able to enter into the temple" which was in heaven until the seven plagues had been finished.  That "NO MAN" restricted delay also applied to the translated Enoch, who would have to wait with the rest of glorified humanity until those 7 plagues were done. 

The resurrected BODIES of the saints were denied entrance to heaven until that point, but for the SOULS of the saints who had physically died, these were allowed entrance to God's presence in heaven after Christ's ascension.  Christ had made that possible by opening up the way into God's presence in heaven by going there FIRST as the "First-born" and the "First-begotten".  Birth order with Christ being the "First-born" to ascend to heaven and God's presence in a glorified human body form was absolutely necessary.   This gives Christ the preeminence that He properly deserves. 

To say that the translated Enoch got to heaven to be with God before Christ did in His glorified, resurrected body form would give Enoch the preeminence over Christ.  That we cannot possibly have.   

[Rella]

I submit that terms such as "before" are irrelevant when you are talking about eternity.

Do not try to tie the eternal chronology with our limited time/space existence.  The bible says God sees the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) SO both are visible to HIM simultaneously.

Now wait a minute. What is the purpose of the bible that was given to us with some recorded history in it?

Was it not mostly along a timeline. (Do not confuse what God sees with what we have been given... from God as a guide!)

So when we are told about people that existed before even the waters that took out all but 8 people...So God would start again
with humanity.... we are talking about Enoch who it is claimed lived 669 years before that flood.... and fast forward to the birth Jesus

Again it is suggested from the beginning of the Flood to the estimated date of Christ's birth is 2,323 years. Add the 669 years to that and we get 2992 year from Enoch to Jesus birth. In the 33 give or take years that Jesus walked this earth he was adamant that no one had ascended to the Father NOR WOULD THEY until Jesus was there.

It does not take brain surgery to know that IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE ... Enoch came before Jesus... and he either just disappeared and eventually died or he was taken somewhere to wait out what would be happening.... BUT it COULD NOT have been to the third heaven. OR Jesus was wrong

Who knows... maybe Enoch is the one keeping the light on in the window of the second heavens Motel six.....

[Rella]

The Father isn't in the 3rd heaven in Enoch. He's in the 10th heaven.

Enoch is in the 3rd heaven.

No he is not. Unless he is in the Paradise that the United Church of God says is in the third heaven.

Please tell me where I can find God is in the 10th heaven.

More "church" teachings wrong on what the "bible" says?

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/bible-questions-and-answers/what-does-the-bible-mean-by-the-third-heaven
United Church of God

The Bible speaks of three different heavens. Genesis 1:1 says that God created "the heavens"—plural. The first heaven is the atmosphere around the earth. In describing the rain that brought on the Flood of Noah's time, Genesis 7:11 says "the windows of heaven were opened." Commenting on the extent of the water, verse 19 says "all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered."

The second heaven is commonly referred to as "outer space." Exodus 32:13 is one of many references to "the stars of heaven." Stars are not in the skies from which the rain falls, but in the space beyond our atmosphere. Nehemiah 9:6 also refers to space as heaven: "You alone are the Lord; you have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host [the planets and stars]."

A "third heaven" is mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4. Paul also called it "Paradise" in verse 4. That word is from the Greek word for park or garden—not just any park or garden, but a magnificent one. It's the same word used in the standard Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, to mean the Garden of Eden.

Revelation 4:2 reveals that God's throne is in heaven, but which one? Obviously, God's throne is not in the sky where the clouds are and the birds fly—the first heaven. Nor is it in the visible confines of outer space—the second heaven. Putting this reference together with what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians, we discern that the third heaven, then, must refer to the location of the throne of God.

Now, we can visit whether or not Paul actually ascended up to the third heaven or not himself

First Baptist Church of Covington teaches
The third heaven is the dwelling place of God.

https://reasonsforhopejesus.com/third-heaven-three-heavens/
The Third Heaven
This Heaven is in a category all of its own.  Unlike the created first and second heavens, the Third Heaven is the eternal dwelling place of God and His heavenly hosts.

So where i the world is the 10th heaven... as only 3 have made it into our handbook?[/size]

[DaveW]

Now wait a minute. What is the purpose of the bible that was given to us with some recorded history in it?

Was it not mostly along a timeline. (Do not confuse what God sees with what we have been given... from God as a guide!)

So when we are told about people that existed before even the waters that took out all but 8 people...So God would start again
with humanity.... we are talking about Enoch who it is claimed lived 669 years before that flood.... and fast forward to the birth Jesus

Again it is suggested from the beginning of the Flood to the estimated date of Christ's birth is 2,323 years. Add the 669 years to that and we get 2992 year from Enoch to Jesus birth. In the 33 give or take years that Jesus walked this earth he was adamant that no one had ascended to the Father NOR WOULD THEY until Jesus was there.

It does not take brain surgery to know that IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE ... Enoch came before Jesus... and he either just disappeared and eventually died or he was taken somewhere to wait out what would be happening.... BUT it COULD NOT have been to the third heaven. OR Jesus was wrong

Who knows... maybe Enoch is the one keeping the light on in the window of the second heavens Motel six.....

Of course the bible has a time line.  Because we live in a time space world.  It says very little about any kind of chronology in God's realm, with the exception of one verse in REV which says there was silence in Heaven for a half hour.    But that IN NO WAY means that there is any kind of correlation to our own time line.  It may be going in an entirely different direction.

Once Enoch (and Elijah also) left this realm they entered God's chronology. 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

No he is not. Unless he is in the Paradise that the United Church of God says is in the third heaven.

Please tell me where I can find God is in the 10th heaven.

You're right.

This is only explicit in 2Enoch... an entirely different book written hundreds of years later.  I've confused the two.  My apologies.  2Enoch is a considerably less... uh, reliable.

Although...

Now, we can visit whether or not Paul actually ascended up to the third heaven or not himself

First Baptist Church of Covington teaches
The third heaven is the dwelling place of God.

https://reasonsforhopejesus.com/third-heaven-three-heavens/
The Third Heaven
This Heaven is in a category all of its own.  Unlike the created first and second heavens, the Third Heaven is the eternal dwelling place of God and His heavenly hosts.

So where i the world is the 10th heaven... as only 3 have made it into our handbook?

Although, while the number of heavens is not explicitly stated either in 1Enoch or the Bible, a case can be made for a greater number.

1Enoch 72-82 (The Book of Heavenly Luminaries) organizes the heavens according to the "gates" at the which the various planets, sun and moon enter and exit the sky, and the "chariots" that they ride:

And I saw chariots in the heaven, running 9 in the world, above those portals in which revolve the stars that never set. And one is larger than all the rest,
and it is that that makes its course through the entire world.

The idea that each of these "chariots" corresponds to a heaven, or a "celestial sphere" is a pretty easy case to make, and one that has been often been discussed in Judaism, ]particularly in conjunction with much of the book of Ezekiel.

Jarrod

[Rella]

You're right.

This is only explicit in 2Enoch... an entirely different book written hundreds of years later.  I've confused the two.  My apologies.  2Enoch is a considerably less... uh, reliable.

Although...
Although, while the number of heavens is not explicitly stated either in 1Enoch or the Bible, a case can be made for a greater number.

1Enoch 72-82 (The Book of Heavenly Luminaries) organizes the heavens according to the "gates" at the which the various planets, sun and moon enter and exit the sky, and the "chariots" that they ride:

And I saw chariots in the heaven, running 9 in the world, above those portals in which revolve the stars that never set. And one is larger than all the rest,
and it is that that makes its course through the entire world.

The idea that each of these "chariots" corresponds to a heaven, or a "celestial sphere" is a pretty easy case to make, and one that has been often been discussed in Judaism, ]particularly in conjunction with much of the book of Ezekiel.

Jarrod

Jarrod,

While I am all about other biblical writings.... for they fill in certain seeming gaps within the 4 corners of our bible... one cannot expect common man... I use that term loosly because they generally dont know much about the 66 books, and if the 66 confuses them... anything else, that is not truly proven in concrete documented form just makes their eyes glaze over.

Even those people who are not so common.. such as one or two right here... tend to get frozen at the idea that there just might be another historically valid author that could shake up their happy existence that it is all worked out in their minds.

Now I am curious enough to want to know about the case for a greater number of heavens.... and more so, if that be true why
only 3 are suggested in the 66 books?

I saw something today that I have read for more then 60 years and never saw it..... Yes.... I am not infallible, but dont tell anyone.

2 Cor 12: 4 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I guess it struck me as we have recently touched on the subject of paradise as being the upper part of hades.

Was Paul referring to that specific paradise or was he being descriptive of the joy he was experiencing.

So... I shall be in search for explanation of this as well as all else.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Now I am curious enough to want to know about the case for a greater number of heavens.... and more so, if that be true why
only 3 are suggested in the 66 books?

I would suggest that more than 3 are suggested even in the Bible.

If one were willing to look at history and mythology in Mesopotamia in the Iron Age, they would instantly see that most of Mesopotamia believed in seven heavens.

I saw something today that I have read for more then 60 years and never saw it..... Yes.... I am not infallible, but dont tell anyone.

2 Cor 12: 4 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I guess it struck me as we have recently touched on the subject of paradise as being the upper part of hades.

Was Paul referring to that specific paradise or was he being descriptive of the joy he was experiencing.

So... I shall be in search for explanation of this as well as all else.

You can do the research yourself, but Greek Paradise is the same as Hebrew Pardac, and both come from a Farsi (Persian) word.  This word denotes what we might think of as "the king's forest."  It's an orchard, usually of fruit trees, grown and maintained for the king's pleasure, as shown in Song of Solomon.  This is usually adjacent to the king's palace, and often contains hidden entrances and exits made to allow royalty to pass in and out without being noticed, and perhaps to escape in the event of siege/invasion.

So, when that King is God, His paradise is Gan Eden.

Jarrod

[Reformer]

3 Resurrections:

    "To say that the translated Enoch got to heaven to be with God before Christ did in His glorified, resurrected body form would give Enoch the preeminence over Christ. That we cannot possibly have" [Reply #12].

    I noted in my Post #7 above, "Enoch's faithfulness was rewarded by a translation to a heavenly domain, whether Heaven itself or one of God's other domains, without first becoming a victim of death."

   Example, Hades is one of God's domains [see Acts 2], but not Heaven itself. But regardless of which heavenly domain Enoch was carried to, the event occurred.

    And how he was carried up, in the flesh or out of the flesh, in writing about death, the resurrection, and afterlife, Paul said, "I tell you, brothers, flesh and blood cannot inherit the [eternal] kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" [I Cor. 15:50].

    Our fleshly remains will be transformed "to be like His glorious body" [Phil. 3:20]. In other words, a spiritual body is not subject to decay and age, very much like our Father who is spirit or has a spiritual form [see John 4:24].

Buff
     

[Rella]

I would suggest that more than 3 are suggested even in the Bible.

If one were willing to look at history and mythology in Mesopotamia in the Iron Age, they would instantly see that most of Mesopotamia believed in seven heavens.
You can do the research yourself, but Greek Paradise is the same as Hebrew Pardac, and both come from a Farsi (Persian) word.  This word denotes what we might think of as "the king's forest."  It's an orchard, usually of fruit trees, grown and maintained for the king's pleasure, as shown in Song of Solomon.  This is usually adjacent to the king's palace, and often contains hidden entrances and exits made to allow royalty to pass in and out without being noticed, and perhaps to escape in the event of siege/invasion.

So, when that King is God, His paradise is Gan Eden.

Jarrod

Nope.. I cannot get into anything mythology. They were teaching that along with my evolution from monkey to man when I was in 4th grade. I cannot buy into the varied gods and goddesses that were in mythology for there has always only ever been the one God... ours.... though the stories are above entertaining. Hence a reference to additional heavens... Naw. Not from that source.

However... I went exploring....



I know I should not laugh because there is no provable answer, here. (These folks need to join GC... they would fit right in.)

Yes, I let my fingers do the walking, for these old legs are not good anymore and did a simple search for
"was the paradise paul mentions as the 3rd heaven the same paradise that is of upper hades"

Seems , to me, that was a fairly straight forward question.   

My first link I clicked on gave two opposite answers and neither is a simple yes or no..... So here are the answers....
. I will be moving on to the rest of the list but these just got me .... ummmm... laughing

NOTE ... ALL BOLDING IS MINE, And I am leaning toward answer #2.

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/53121/is-the-3rd-heaven-the-same-as-the-paradise

Biblical Hermeneutics

LINK QUESTION:

Is the 3rd heaven the same as the paradise?

Asked 2 years, 1 month ago
Modified 2 years, 1 month ago
Viewed 748 times

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

2 Corinthians 12:1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

Is Paul's reference to paradise the same as Jesus'?

luke2-corinthians

ANSWER #1

TL;DR: It's the same paradise, but different times and places. Paul was referring to God's heaven, where Paradise was at the time (and still is). Jesus was referring to where Paradise will be during and after the Millennium.

"Third heaven" refers to God's spiritual realm (the first heaven being the Earth's atmosphere and the second being outer space and the rest of the universe).

"Paradise" comes from a Persian word meaning a large walled-off nature preserve.

Paradise can refer to the Garden of Eden, which contained the Tree of Life that was denied to humanity following Adam and Eve's choice of the other tree.

Paradise can also refer to the Kingdom of God on Earth during the Millennium.

Following Judgement Day at the end of the Millennium, the Earth will be recreated and on it will be the new Jerusalem:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
...
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, ...
...
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, ...
...
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. — Revelation 21:1–2,12; 22:2,14

The walls of that new Jerusalem will enclose a paradise. Notice that like the original, it too contains "the tree of life".

It wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that the original paradise no longer exists on Earth and is currently in God's heaven, a vision of which was given to Paul's acquaintance.

So, when Jesus told the thief "Truly, I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." he was referring to the time at the end of the Millennium when the thief returns to life in the second general resurrection (Revelation 20:5), and to his access to the tree of life in the new Jerusalem.

answered Nov 19, 2020 at 19:30

Ray Butterworth[/size]

ANSWER #2

Personally, I do not believe that the Paradise which was spoken of in the Bible is the same as the Third Heaven spoken by Paul. I believe that they are two different locations and I will try my best to answer it (however anyone is free to correct me).

I believe that Paradise (which is derived from an Avestan word 'Pairidaēza,' meaning 'an enclosed park or garden) is located within Sheol, also known as Hades in the Greek.

It is a common belief for the Jews, especially within the Old Testament, that when men die, they all go to a place call Sheol.

But Jacob said, "My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he alone is left. If harm should befall him on the journey you are taking, then you will bring my gray hair down to Sheol in sorrow." — Genesis 42:38

But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord." As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. — Numbers 16:30-33

For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks? — Psalm 6:5

O Lord, You have brought up my soul from Sheol; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit. — Psalm 30:3

Even this idea is not foreign to the New Testament

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. — Revelation 20:13

There is an account in the New Testament which seems to fit with this understanding. In Luke 16 we see that when the Rich man and Lazarus died, both of them descended to Sheol. The rich man was suffering but Lazarus was carried to Abraham's Bosom in Paradise.

It's good to note now that Abraham's Bosom does not signify a location but rather, it is a figure of speech signifying how it would be when the righteous enter into Paradise.

While commentators generally agree upon the meaning of the "Bosom of Abraham", they disagree about its origins. Up to the time of Maldonatus (AD 1583), its origin was traced back to the universal custom of parents to take up into their arms, or place upon their knees, their children when they are fatigued, or return home, and to make them rest by their side during the night (cf. 2 Samuel 12:3; 1 Kings 3:20; 17:19; Luke 11:7 sqq.), thus causing them to enjoy rest and security in the bosom of a loving parent. After the same manner was Abraham supposed to act towards his children after the fatigues and troubles of the present life, hence the metaphorical expression "to be in Abraham's Bosom" as meaning to be in repose and happiness with him.

Thus, we could also see that when the repentant thief was dying on the cross beside Jesus, he requested Jesus to remember him when He come in His Kingdom. However, Jesus assured him that today he will be with Him in Paradise.

And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." — Luke 23:42-43

And indeed we know that while Jesus was in the grave, He did in fact went down to Sheol/Hades.

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, — 1 Peter 3:18-19

Therefore, we know that Christ had indeed fulfilled His statement to the Repentant thief.

Besides the Bible, we too have other sources from the early church fathers in which we can understand that after our death, we first go to Paradise in Sheol/Hades.

"For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this[truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians," - Justin Martyr (AD100-165), Dialogue with Trypho

'That every soul is detained in safe keeping among the inhabitants of the lower world' until the day of the Lord. The lower regions are situated as a vast, deep space in the interior of the earth. 'By ourselves the lower regions are not supposed to be a bare cavity, nor some subterranean sewer of the world, but a vast deep space in the interior of the earth, and a concealed recess in its very bowels.' To this region Christ went—in the manner of all dead men—so that the prophets and patriarchs might become partakers of Himself. Hence it is not unjust that the souls of the faithful should go there, too. How, indeed, shall the soul mount up to heaven, where Christ is sitting at the Father's right hand, when as yet the archangel's trumpet has not been heard by the command of God, when as yet those whom the coming of the Lord is to find on the earth have not been caught up into the air to meet Him at His coming, in company with the dead in Christ, who shall be the first to arise? 'When the world indeed shall pass away, then the kingdom of heaven shall be opened.'12 The souls of all shall pass into the 'lower world,' where they shall remain until the resurrection. Good and bad alike are there. But not together, in the same place. -Tertullian (AD 160), De Paradiso 

Therefore once more, we can see that Paradise is situated within Sheol/Hades where the righteous abide until the Day of the Resurrection.

Thus far I can conclude that Paradise is indeed a different place in comparison with the Third Heaven. As for the Third Heaven, I will say that there is where the Throne of God is located. The very place which John the Apostle saw in his vision in Revelation.

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things." Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. — Revelation 4:1-2

Besides that, I hope that I have covered enough to explain that the Third Heaven is not the same as Paradise.

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answered Nov 19, 2020 at 19:58

user35811

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Nope.. I cannot get into anything mythology. They were teaching that along with my evolution from monkey to man when I was in 4th grade. I cannot buy into the varied gods and goddesses that were in mythology for there has always only ever been the one God... ours.... though the stories are above entertaining.

Sigh.  Mythology is not history. 

The point of mythology is firstly word-making.  The Hebrews were literally the first people in the world with a phonetic language (along with the Phoenicians, from whom the word phonetic derives).  They were still in the process of creating their language.  It's pretty easy to make up a word for, say... horse.  You just point at a horse and name it.  But what if you want a word for, say... hope?  You can't exactly point at that.  So instead you make up a story about an anthropomorphic character who typifies the attribute of hope.  And the name you give that character becomes your word for hope.  In this way, even children can be taught words for things that aren't concrete - hope, love, faith and light and darkness, doubt, evil and despair.

This does not imply that the people believed these stories were literally true.  They almost certainly didn't.  Well, maybe their children did.  As they grew older anyone greater than a dirt-worker would have been initiated into a school of mysteries and learned more/better.

Jarrod