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~ Rella needs splainin to The Saints that came out of their graves.

Started by Rella, Sun Nov 26, 2023 - 11:27:01

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Rella

@ 3 Resurrections

Hi 3R,

This is not specific to preterism or 70AD but you know more about the temple ... then anyone else I have run across, and believe me I have looked  ::lookaround::

WHEN, as we are told in Mathew 27:51-52
 
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Many folk have wanted to know what happened to the saints who were resurrected from the graves ...??????

I don't.

What I want to know is why all of the "saints" or as some translations call them, "holy people" .... why they all were not raised.... only some!!!!!

The entire explanations of commentaries are enough to make people wonder if that ever happened.

I am certain it did but answer me this if you can....

It was when Jesus died... as soon as he died... the veil was torn, right?

vs. 50 "And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

vs. 51 "And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

vs. 52 " The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

THEN verse 53 says

vs. 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

SO WHEN EXATCLY DID THEY COME OUT OF THEIR TOMBS BECAUSE AS FAR AS WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD.... BY THE CHURCH FOLK... THE RESURRECTION WAS NOT CALLED SUCH UNTIL HE APPEARED AFTER BEING ENTOMBED FOR 72 HOURS.

Yes, I said 72 hours because by Christ Jesus' own words he... at least His body would be in the tomb 3 nights and 3 Days... and that folks is 72 hours.

So based on what did they say they came out after the resurrection...
or did they mean they entered the city after the resurrections???

Help!!!!!!!!

The only feed back I have gotten, not from here, is that the Holy City they went to was not on earth but in heaven because no city, at that to me was considered holy.


3 Resurrections

We can know exactly when those Matthew 27:52-53 saints came out of their graves by looking at a couple texts.  Ephesians 4:8-12 and Revelation 14:14-16.

If we look only at the Matthew 27:52-53 account, it only tells us that those saints came out of their broken-open graves AFTER Christ's resurrection, at which time they went into the city of Jerusalem and were seen of many.  But how long after Christ's resurrection? A second? An hour?  Days?  Months?

I look first at Revelation 14, which is a description of the 144,000 "First-fruits unto God and to the Lamb".  These I believe to be the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints that share the title of the "First-fruits" along with "Christ the First-fruits".  These had "no guile in their mouth", and were "redeemed from the earth" by the redemption of their physical bodies out of the ground. 

In Revelation 14:14, John described a vision of the Son of Man with a golden crown, sitting on a cloud in heaven, who is given a sickle and told to reap, because the harvest was "dried" or "ripe".  Then the Son of Man took the sickle and "the earth was reaped".  This was a "harvest" of people being raised from the dead.  The "earth" was specifically the land of Israel, as John most often applied that word to the promised land of Israel and not to the world. 

Moreover, this cannot be a harvest at Christ's second coming return, because He is doing this "harvesting" while still sitting in heaven on a cloud.  He was wearing that golden crown of His newly-appointed Great High Priesthood given to Him by God at His resurrection-day ascension to the Father (as He told Mary He was going to do that morning).  We know that for the resurrection at Christ's second coming return, Christ said the "reapers are the angels"(Matthew 13:39), so this can't be the resurrection on that occasion.

So apparently Christ was raised from the dead on what we would call Saturday at sundown, then appeared before dawn the next morning to Mary and told her He was ascending to the Father at that time (John 20:17).  At that first ascension to the Father, God consecrated Christ Jesus as our Great High Priest (the significance of the golden crown). It was at this time when Christ (while still in heaven) raised the 144,000 First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 saints from the dead.  These then went into the city of Jerusalem and were seen of many. Christ then returned to earth to encounter the women on the road who held Him by the feet. 

We know that soon after Christ returned to earth, He met with this group of 144,000 First-fruits in Jerusalem at the temple site, because we read about them in Revelation 14:1 "standing on Mount Zion" with the Lamb. Jesus was in Jerusalem that very first day of the week, since scripture tells us so. These 144,000 then followed the Lamb wherever He went during those 40 days while Christ remained on earth, up until His final ascension in Acts 1.   

As for the Ephesians 4:8-12 reference, this speaks of a "multitude of captives" being led by the ascended Christ, and given as "gifts" to men.  These (resurrected) "gifts" were composed of those who served as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers in the early church, edifying the body of Christ. 

The OT practice of a high priest being consecrated to office required that he give gifts.  "For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this Man have somewhat also to offer." (Hebrews 8:3).  Christ of necessity at his consecration in heaven as our Great High Priest also offered these resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 individuals as "gifts" to men on that occasion, in order to build up the body of Christ in the early church.

There is significance in the Matthew 27:52-53's number of 144,000.  Back in the OT (Numbers 31:4), a thousand from each of the twelve tribes was selected when going out to war.  This resurrected 144,000 First-fruits in Revelation was an exponentially multiplied number of individuals from the twelve tribes of Israel.  They were selected to make spiritual war on a released Satan.  Satan had begun operating immediately at furious speed to deceive the nations once more after Christ's resurrection-day ascension when he and his devils were cast out of heaven down to earth.

God was not so cruel as to allow a released Satan and his devils out into the world in AD 33 without giving the gift of an indestructible resurrected group of 144,000 First-fruits saints who could help combat that level of increased deception.  This along with the aid of the Comforter helped equip the believers in those days to do battle with Satan and his devils until God destroyed that demonic realm by AD 70.   

More than you wanted, Rella, I know...
But I really love those courageous Matthew 27:52-53 saints.  They certainly had an unusual task in those first-century years until Christ returned in AD 70 - a task that entitled them to "learn that song" that no one else could sing.     

Rella

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sun Nov 26, 2023 - 16:01:25We can know exactly when those Matthew 27:52-53 saints came out of their graves by looking at a couple texts.  Ephesians 4:8-12 and Revelation 14:14-16.

If we look only at the Matthew 27:52-53 account, it only tells us that those saints came out of their broken-open graves AFTER Christ's resurrection, at which time they went into the city of Jerusalem and were seen of many.  But how long after Christ's resurrection? A second? An hour?  Days?  Months?

I look first at Revelation 14, which is a description of the 144,000 "First-fruits unto God and to the Lamb".  These I believe to be the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints that share the title of the "First-fruits" along with "Christ the First-fruits".  These had "no guile in their mouth", and were "redeemed from the earth" by the redemption of their physical bodies out of the ground. 

In Revelation 14:14, John described a vision of the Son of Man with a golden crown, sitting on a cloud in heaven, who is given a sickle and told to reap, because the harvest was "dried" or "ripe".  Then the Son of Man took the sickle and "the earth was reaped".  This was a "harvest" of people being raised from the dead.  The "earth" was specifically the land of Israel, as John most often applied that word to the promised land of Israel and not to the world. 

Moreover, this cannot be a harvest at Christ's second coming return, because He is doing this "harvesting" while still sitting in heaven on a cloud.  He was wearing that golden crown of His newly-appointed Great High Priesthood given to Him by God at His resurrection-day ascension to the Father (as He told Mary He was going to do that morning).  We know that for the resurrection at Christ's second coming return, Christ said the "reapers are the angels"(Matthew 13:39), so this can't be the resurrection on that occasion.

So apparently Christ was raised from the dead on what we would call Saturday at sundown, then appeared before dawn the next morning to Mary and told her He was ascending to the Father at that time (John 20:17).  At that first ascension to the Father, God consecrated Christ Jesus as our Great High Priest (the significance of the golden crown). It was at this time when Christ (while still in heaven) raised the 144,000 First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 saints from the dead.  These then went into the city of Jerusalem and were seen of many. Christ then returned to earth to encounter the women on the road who held Him by the feet. 

We know that soon after Christ returned to earth, He met with this group of 144,000 First-fruits in Jerusalem at the temple site, because we read about them in Revelation 14:1 "standing on Mount Zion" with the Lamb. Jesus was in Jerusalem that very first day of the week, since scripture tells us so. These 144,000 then followed the Lamb wherever He went during those 40 days while Christ remained on earth, up until His final ascension in Acts 1.   

As for the Ephesians 4:8-12 reference, this speaks of a "multitude of captives" being led by the ascended Christ, and given as "gifts" to men.  These (resurrected) "gifts" were composed of those who served as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers in the early church, edifying the body of Christ. 

The OT practice of a high priest being consecrated to office required that he give gifts.  "For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this Man have somewhat also to offer." (Hebrews 8:3).  Christ of necessity at his consecration in heaven as our Great High Priest also offered these resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 individuals as "gifts" to men on that occasion, in order to build up the body of Christ in the early church.

There is significance in the Matthew 27:52-53's number of 144,000.  Back in the OT (Numbers 31:4), a thousand from each of the twelve tribes was selected when going out to war.  This resurrected 144,000 First-fruits in Revelation was an exponentially multiplied number of individuals from the twelve tribes of Israel.  They were selected to make spiritual war on a released Satan.  Satan had begun operating immediately at furious speed to deceive the nations once more after Christ's resurrection-day ascension when he and his devils were cast out of heaven down to earth.

God was not so cruel as to allow a released Satan and his devils out into the world in AD 33 without giving the gift of an indestructible resurrected group of 144,000 First-fruits saints who could help combat that level of increased deception.  This along with the aid of the Comforter helped equip the believers in those days to do battle with Satan and his devils until God destroyed that demonic realm by AD 70.   

More than you wanted, Rella, I know...
But I really love those courageous Matthew 27:52-53 saints.  They certainly had an unusual task in those first-century years until Christ returned in AD 70 - a task that entitled them to "learn that song" that no one else could sing.     

Thank you 3Rs ::tippinghat::

I knew you would have an answer, and is one I will need to reread a couple of times.




Rella

Of course you have me thinking... again.... (note I did not say agreeing necessarily so I'll reply through your reply.


Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sun Nov 26, 2023 - 16:01:25We can know exactly when those Matthew 27:52-53 saints came out of their graves by looking at a couple texts.  Ephesians 4:8-12 and Revelation 14:14-16.

If we look only at the Matthew 27:52-53 account, it only tells us that those saints came out of their broken-open graves AFTER Christ's resurrection, at which time they went into the city of Jerusalem and were seen of many.  But how long after Christ's resurrection? A second? An hour?  Days?  Months?

Agreed. The only seeming clue to this is when Matt 27: 50 thorough  part of 52.
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the [z]veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened,

I, personally do not believe there was any delay from Christ Jesus' dieing , to the veil being torn, and the earth quake.

I see that as definitive to that chunk of the story. Else why would vs 54  Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"be such a declaration?

But does that mean that the centurion and guards also saw the bodies of those raised? (Vs 52 and 53)

That could not have happened then because it specifically says
vs. 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection

So when IS a big question.



I look first at Revelation 14, which is a description of the 144,000 "First-fruits unto God and to the Lamb".  These I believe to be the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints that share the title of the "First-fruits" along with "Christ the F... to the earthquake...irst-fruits".  These had "no guile in their mouth", and were "redeemed from the earth" by the redemption of their physical bodies out of the ground. 

OKAY... I don't see it your way at all. Other then your conclusion of first fruits.

First... 144,000  people ? And all basically making their way to Jerusalem... running into people who knew them would have had to make such a large ruckus that this would not have been kept quiet from telling the story down the generations or even the scribes writing about it... with or without any kind of Christian belief.

So..... on another forum someone broached the idea that these people
did not enter into earthly Jerusalem at all, primarily as they claim it was not called Holy City at that time but being after Jesus' resurrection these folks were taken up to heaven and entered the Holy City there.

If they did not make their appearance with the centurion and guards as witnesses... this could make sense...

But I just looked to see what the ancient historians had to say on this.

I ran into one article https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/824/is-there-historical-evidence-for-the-resurrections-reported-in-matthew-2752-53
Is there historical evidence for the resurrections reported in Matthew 27:52-53?

And it was suggested it might be supported by Paul....

I've read speculation that these people are what Paul refers to in 1st Corinthians 15:6 (ESV):

Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. (500 is a far cry from 144K)

But there just doesn't seem to be enough information to link these people together. It would be an ideal time for Paul to mention a mass resurrection since that was the point he was trying to argue in his letter. And if the resurrected people also saw Jesus resurrected, we might expect Matthew to have mentioned it. (Though this whole section is more of a side note to the main even: Jesus' crucifixion.)

I'm inclined to think that Paul did not know this story, since it would provide far more evidence of a general resurrection than what he did provide. Since Matthew was compiled later than any of Paul's letters, it's possible this story was not widely circulated at the time. It's also possible that Matthew and/or his source misunderstood what happened. There's no textual criticism evidence that I know of that the story was a later insertion.

 SO PAUL DID NOT TALK OF SUCH AN EVENT. WAS IT AN ADD-ON? DID IT EVEN HAPPEN? OR WAS THAT OTHER POSTER CORRECT THAT THEY WERE DRAWN UP TO HEAVEN?





In Revelation 14:14, John described a vision of the Son of Man with a golden crown, sitting on a cloud in heaven, who is given a sickle and told to reap, because the harvest was "dried" or "ripe".  Then the Son of Man took the sickle and "the earth was reaped".  This was a "harvest" of people being raised from the dead.  The "earth" was specifically the land of Israel, as John most often applied that word to the promised land of Israel and not to the world. 

Moreover, this cannot be a harvest at Christ's second coming return, because He is doing this "harvesting" while still sitting in heaven on a cloud.  He was wearing that golden crown of His newly-appointed Great High Priesthood given to Him by God at His resurrection-day ascension to the Father (as He told Mary He was going to do that morning).  We know that for the resurrection at Christ's second coming return, Christ said the "reapers are the angels"(Matthew 13:39), so this can't be the resurrection on that occasion.

YES, I agree. This makes sense.


So apparently Christ was raised from the dead on what we would call Saturday at sundown, then appeared before dawn the next morning to Mary and told her He was ascending to the Father at that time (John 20:17).  At that first ascension to the Father, God consecrated Christ Jesus as our Great High Priest (the significance of the golden crown). It was at this time when Christ (while still in heaven) raised the 144,000 First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 saints from the dead.  These then went into the city of Jerusalem and were seen of many. Christ then returned to earth to encounter the women on the road who held Him by the feet.

Well, first the resurrection after sundown on Saturday and before dawn on Sunday does seem logical.  Yet...................

But, B. What about  "He was ascending to the Father at that time (John 20:17)."  IF John is correct in John 20 17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" So he did not ascend to the father for His Golden Crown ...yet.  Which seemingly indicates those people... however many there were of them.... were not out of their graves yet making the reading in Mathew confusing.



We know that soon after Christ returned

returns.... I still maintain THAT has not come to pass... yet

to earth, He met with this group of 144,000 First-fruits in Jerusalem at the temple site, because we read about them in Revelation 14:1 "standing on Mount Zion" with the Lamb. Jesus was in Jerusalem that very first day of the week, since scripture tells us so. These 144,000 then followed the Lamb wherever He went during those 40 days while Christ remained on earth, up until His final ascension in Acts 1.

Again, that would be quite an assembly that would not have gone unnoticed and recorded by someone. But it was only John talking of the future. You do realize that is enough to almost fill a football stadium 

As for the Ephesians 4:8-12 reference, this speaks of a "multitude of captives" being led by the ascended Christ, and given as "gifts" to men.  These (resurrected) "gifts" were composed of those who served as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers in the early church, edifying the body of Christ.

 ::frown:: This has zero to do with those who came out of the graves in Mathew.
 

The OT practice of a high priest being consecrated to office required that he give gifts.  "For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this Man have somewhat also to offer." (Hebrews 8:3).  Christ of necessity at his consecration in heaven as our Great High Priest also offered these resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 individuals as "gifts" to men on that occasion, in order to build up the body of Christ in the early church.

There is significance in the Matthew 27:52-53's number of 144,000.  Back in the OT (Numbers 31:4), a thousand from each of the twelve tribes was selected when going out to war.  This resurrected 144,000 First-fruits in Revelation was an exponentially multiplied number of individuals from the twelve tribes of Israel.  They were selected to make spiritual war on a released Satan.  Satan had begun operating immediately at furious speed to deceive the nations once more after Christ's resurrection-day ascension when he and his devils were cast out of heaven down to earth.

God was not so cruel as to allow a released Satan and his devils out into the world in AD 33

::headscratch:: You are right because Satan was not released.... nor has he been bound.... YET.

without giving the gift of an indestructible resurrected group of 144,000 First-fruits saints who could help combat that level of increased deception.  This along with the aid of the Comforter helped equip the believers in those days to do battle with Satan and his devils until God destroyed that demonic realm by AD 70. 

 ::tearhair:: 

More than you wanted, Rella, I know...

Not at all my friend.... it is good to know your are as consistent as always . rofl

But I really love those courageous Matthew 27:52-53 saints.  They certainly had an unusual task in those first-century years until Christ returned in AD 70 - a task that entitled them to "learn that song" that no one else could sing.   

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: Rella on Sun Nov 26, 2023 - 11:27:01What I want to know is why all of the "saints" or as some translations call them, "holy people" .... why they all were not raised.... only some!!!!!
The first resurrection was only promised to martyrs.

Rev 20:
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rella

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Nov 27, 2023 - 13:51:40The first resurrection was only promised to martyrs.

Rev 20:
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Hmmm.

I should have known that. Thanks

DaveW

Rella - The text plainly says the risen saints came out of the tombs "after his resurrection." (v53)

As to when they left - It says in Acts 1.9 that He was taken up and disappeared into a cloud.  A version of that same greek word for cloud is in Heb 12.1 -  we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.  I would submit to you that the cloud that went up and hid our Lord was that company of resurrected saints.

Aside:  I have not been able to find it yet, but I have heard that there is a paragraph in the Jerusalem Talmud (size of a set of encyclopedia) describing the tearing of the veil in the temple.  It supposedly says that it was old and starting to show signs of wear.  They always kept at least one spare ready to go, and as soon as one was taken down another was started. So when the first veil ripped, the 2nd was immediately put up in its place and they hurried to finish the 3rd.  Within a few days #2 ripped, and #3 was put up, which also ripped.

Like I said I have not found that small piece yet, but I will keep looking.  Very interesting if it is true.

Rella

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Nov 29, 2023 - 12:38:48Rella - The text plainly says the risen saints came out of the tombs "after his resurrection." (v53)

As to when they left - It says in Acts 1.9 that He was taken up and disappeared into a cloud.  A version of that same greek word for cloud is in Heb 12.1 -  we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.  I would submit to you that the cloud that went up and hid our Lord was that company of resurrected saints.

Aside:  I have not been able to find it yet, but I have heard that there is a paragraph in the Jerusalem Talmud (size of a set of encyclopedia) describing the tearing of the veil in the temple.  It supposedly says that it was old and starting to show signs of wear.  They always kept at least one spare ready to go, and as soon as one was taken down another was started. So when the first veil ripped, the 2nd was immediately put up in its place and they hurried to finish the 3rd.  Within a few days #2 ripped, and #3 was put up, which also ripped.

Like I said I have not found that small piece yet, but I will keep looking.  Very interesting if it is true.

Hi Dave,

" I would submit to you that the cloud that went up and hid our Lord was that company of resurrected saints."

I can easily agree with you on that. Never before gave it thought but seems perfect.... maybe? inclusive of those He pulled out of upper Sheol? But that is an aside.

I have this which does 2 things.

It talks on the temple veil as well as other things and repeatedly suggest around AD30... of which I am totally convinced was the year of the crucifixion, but that is another aside.

Here is a little light reading for you.

https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/48/48-2/48-2-pp301-316_JETS.pdf

Page 6 of the link starts with... But no people coming out of the graves... just the temple and veil.

Do extra-biblical sources report these events (or similar phenomena)
occurring around the date of Jesus' death? Following Jesus' death, in the
weeks and months ahead, did unusual phenomena continue in the temple—
to indicate either that it was obsolete or that its destruction was imminent?

For the remainder of this paper we will seek to answer these questions by
looking at early Jewish sources which seem to provide some corroborating evidence for supernatural phenomena in the temple at the time of, or following, Chriii. non-biblical jewish sources

1. Jerusalem Talmud.
16 Possibly the most significant corroborating
sources for unusual phenomena in the temple around the time of Christ's
crucifixion are the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud. These sources are
important because they explicitly indicate a time reference that corresponds
to the date of Jesus' crucifixion. Also, as sources preserved by rabbinic
Judaism, the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud do not face the charge of
being tainted by later Christian interpolations. We will look first at the Jerusalem Talmud.ist's crucifixion.


Rella

Hi Dave, there is more...

In reply to are there other non-biblical sources on those raised from their graves after the resurrection is the following...



It is defended regularly by Early church fathers such as:

Ignatius to the Trallians (c. AD 70-115)

"For Says the Scripture, 'May bodies of the saints that slept arose,' their graves being opened. He descended, indeed, into Hades alone, but He arose accompanied by a multitude" (chap. Ix, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. I, p. 70).

Ignatius to the Magnesians (c. AD 70-115)

"...[T]herefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master—how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He who they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead" [Chap. IX] (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds. The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. I (1885). Reprinted by Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, p. 62. Emphasis added in all these citations).

Irenaeus (c. AD 120-200)

"...He [Christ] suffered who can lead those souls aloft that followed His ascension. This event was also an indication of the fact that when the holy hour of Christ descended [to Hades], many souls ascended and were seen in their bodies" (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus XXVIII, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. I, Alexander Roberts, ibid., 572-573).

Clement of Alexandria (c. AD 155-200)

"'But those who had fallen asleep descended dead, but ascended alive.' Further, the Gospel says, 'that many bodies of those that slept arose,'—plainly as having been translated to a better state" (Alexander Roberts, ed. Stromata, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. II, chap. VI, 491).

This does not include the multiple times the phrase was quoted by later church Fathers (Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Cyril, etc). If one suggests that it was added to the text, they must first grapple with its extended use in these and other very early documents and decide how an error was placed within the text so early in transmission.


So you seemingly are right about the cloud around an ascending Jesus. ::tippinghat::

4WD

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Nov 27, 2023 - 13:51:40The first resurrection was only promised to martyrs.

Rev 20:
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
That is a poor translation.

Actually, there are two different groups given here.  The first group that John sees are the souls of those beheaded.  The second group is not souls. The ones which had not worshipped the beast were not souls.

NASB 
 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, .... and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand;

In the second phrase, "those" is the subject of that phrase and does not modify "souls". They are not dead.  The first resurrection is not a physical resurrection of the dead.  It is the spiritual resurrection that Jesus speaks of in John 5:24,25. The first resurrection of Revelation 20:4 is regeneration.

More discussion if you wish.

3 Resurrections

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Nov 27, 2023 - 13:51:40The first resurrection was only promised to martyrs.

Rev 20:
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

No, Jarrod, this is not exclusively martyrs included in this number of souls.  Read this in the ESV and you can tell that martyrs were included, but not all of them had died under martyrdom.

"...Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, AND those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands..." 

So, here are two separate categories of the souls of the dead John saw: first, those who had died under martyrdom, and second, those who had simply remained faithful in not worshipping the beast during their lifetime.  Daniel and his three companions would have fit in this second category. 

3 Resurrections

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Nov 29, 2023 - 12:38:48Rella - The text plainly says the risen saints came out of the tombs "after his resurrection." (v53)

As to when they left - It says in Acts 1.9 that He was taken up and disappeared into a cloud.  A version of that same greek word for cloud is in Heb 12.1 -  we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.  I would submit to you that the cloud that went up and hid our Lord was that company of resurrected saints.

Aside:  I have not been able to find it yet, but I have heard that there is a paragraph in the Jerusalem Talmud (size of a set of encyclopedia) describing the tearing of the veil in the temple.  It supposedly says that it was old and starting to show signs of wear.  They always kept at least one spare ready to go, and as soon as one was taken down another was started. So when the first veil ripped, the 2nd was immediately put up in its place and they hurried to finish the 3rd.  Within a few days #2 ripped, and #3 was put up, which also ripped.

Like I said I have not found that small piece yet, but I will keep looking.  Very interesting if it is true.

No, the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints did NOT accompany Christ in His ascension, either on His resurrection day, or 40 days later in Acts 1.  We know this for certain because of Revelation 15:8. This verse tells us that "no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."  This was heaven's temple under discussion. 

These Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints remaining on earth and circulating among the members of the early church gave rise to the mistaken doctrine of Hymenaeus and Philetus, who were telling people that the resurrection was already past.  In one respect, these two men were correct that the "First resurrection" event (taking place in AD 33) was already past, but they were incorrect that no other bodily resurrection event would follow that resurrection of the 144,000 First-fruits. 

This is why Paul wrote the 1 Thessalonians 4 text explaining the order of events for the next resurrection, in order to comfort the believers who had seen their own believing relatives die since Christ' resurrection.  Their beloved relatives who had died would not remain sleeping in the grave, but would be the first to be raised from the dead and caught up to heaven, followed immediately after by those who had already been made "alive" by a resurrection process, but who had "remained" on earth until then.  Together, they would meet Christ in the air and return to heaven with Him at that point. 

This 144,000 number of First-fruits raised from the dead was remarkable enough to be noticed by many.  However,  mixed among the million and more attending Passover in Jerusalem at the time, not so astounding that we should expect multiple historical records to have mentioned the same account that Matthew gave.   (Example: the AD 66 Passover census taken in Jerusalem under Nero amounted to 2 million, 700 thousand and 200 persons present for the feast.)

DaveW

QuoteNo, the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints did NOT accompany Christ in His ascension, either on His resurrection day, or 40 days later in Acts 1.  We know this for certain because of Revelation 15:8. This verse tells us that "no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."  This was heaven's temple under discussion. 
3 Res - I submit your timing is in error as you are trying to equate earth's timeline with a timeless place (eternity) in Heaven. 

3 Resurrections

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Dec 01, 2023 - 10:17:223 Res - I submit your timing is in error as you are trying to equate earth's timeline with a timeless place (eternity) in Heaven. 

Dave, we are looking at the seven plagues which were to take place on earth - not in heaven's realm.  When those seven plagues were finished, THEN resurrected mankind could enter heaven's temple for the eternal state. 

JPPT1974

This may be kind of confusing but really Revelation is a chapter as it is the last in the Bible nobody wants to read but NEEDS to!

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