Taking Another Look At 6 Days Or 13 Billion Years

[Reformer]

REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________

Taking Another Look At 6 Days
Or 13 Billion Years

     When we contemplate God's awesome power, there's hardly any question but that He could have completed His creation in less than six days. “In the beginning” of time, however, He chose to complete His creation in six solar days. The following declaration is either true or false, "For in six days the Lord made the heavens [universe and our solar system] and the Earth, the sea, and all that is in them" [Exodus 20:11].

    Many of our common versions say He “rested” on the seventh day. If the first six days consisted of billions of years, so did the seventh day. Does this mean God “rested” for billions of years? [The correct translation, of course, is that God “ceased” creating after the sixth day.]

    But another problem with the conception that God utilized millions/billions of years to create everything is that He instructed the Jewish people to rest on the seventh day and keep it holy. If each day consisted of millions of years, were His people to rest millions of years on each seventh day?

    “Day” is employed in the same vein in referring to the seventh as it is used in referring to the other six. Thus, whatever we attribute to the first six days, 24-hours or millions of years, we must also attribute to the seventh day. And if each of the six days comprised millions of years, the Jewish people, who were told to rest on the seventh, should have rested for millions of years. This logic is purely unacceptable.

    If we must understand the days of creation figuratively, what is wrong with figuratively understanding the days Jesus' body was in the tomb—three solar days or millions of years? True, “day” is sometimes used symbolically in the scriptures, but not in relation to creation and the time Jesus' body was in the tomb.

    Could the material from which the Earth and universe were made have existed billions of years? I understand verses 1 through 5 of the first chapter of Genesis as the first 24-hour day of creation. It was on this first day that God created the substance from which He formed the universe, created the light, and separated the light from darkness. “And there was evening, and there was morning, the first day" [v. 5]. God took a chaotic mass of material He had spoken into existence and fashioned our immaculate universe! Oh, the power of our Creator!

    "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible" [Heb. 11:3]. 

[johntwayne]

+1 manna for a constructive post.

[4WD]

I have posted the following article previously, but perhaps it is worth posting it again.

http://geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx

Concerning Gerald Schroeder, the following is a brief summary taken from bing.com

Gerald Lawrence Schroeder is an Orthodox Jewish physicist, author, lecturer and teacher at College of Jewish Studies Aish HaTorah's Discovery Seminar, Essentials and Fellowships programs and Executive Learning Center,[1] who focuses on what he perceives to be an inherent relationship between science and spirituality.

Schroeder received his BSc in 1959, his MSc in 1961, and his PhD in nuclear physics and earth and planetary sciences in 1965, from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). He worked seven years on the staff of the MIT physics department. He was a member of the United States Atomic Energy Commission.

His works frequently cite Talmudic, Midrashic and medieval commentaries on biblical creation accounts, such as commentaries written by the Jewish philosopher Nachmanides. Among other things, Schroeder attempts to reconcile a six-day creation as described in Genesis with the scientific evidence that the world is billions of years old using the idea that the perceived flow of time for a given event in an expanding universe varies with the observer's perspective of that event. He attempts to reconcile the two perspectives numerically, calculating the effect of the stretching of space-time, based on Albert Einstein's general relativity.

Namely, that from the perspective of the point of origin of the Big Bang, according to Einstein's equations of the 'stretching factor', time dilates by a factor of roughly 1,000,000,000,000, meaning one trillion days on earth would appear to pass as one day from that point, due to the stretching of space. When applied to the estimated age of the universe at 13.8 billion years, from the perspective of the point of origin, the universe today would appear to have just begun its sixth day of existence, or if the universe is 15 billion years old from the perspective of earth, it would appear to have just completed its sixth day. Antony Flew, an academic philosopher who promoted atheism for most of his adult life indicated that the arguments of Gerald Schroeder had influenced his decision to become a deist.

His theories to reconcile faith and science have drawn some criticism from both religious and non-religious scientists, and his works remain controversial in scientific circles.

From the ariticle:

One of the most obvious perceived contradictions between Torah and science is the age of the universe. Is it billions of years old, like scientific data, or is it thousands of years, like Biblical data? When we add up the generations of the Bible and then add the secular rulers that followed, we come to fewer than 6000 years. Whereas, data from the Hubbell telescope or from the land based telescopes in Hawaii, indicate the number at 15 billion years plus or minus 10%. In trying to resolve this apparent conflict, I use only ancient biblical commentary because modern commentary already knows modern science, and so it is influenced by what science always.

That commentary includes the text of the Bible itself (3300 years ago), the translation of the Torah into Aramaic by Onkelos (100 CE), the Talmud (redacted about the year 400 CE), and the three major Torah commentators. There are many, many commentators, but at the top of the mountain there are three, accepted by all: Rashi (11th century France), who brings the straight understanding of the text, Maimonides (12th century Egypt), who handles the philosophical concepts, and then Nahmanides (13th century Spain), the most important of the Kabbalists.

These ancient commentaries were finalized hundreds or thousands of years ago, long before Hubbell was a gleam in his great-grandparent's eye. So there's no possibility of Hubbell or any other scientific data influencing these concepts. That's a key component in keeping the following discussion objective.

Summarizing the ariticle:

15 billion years or six days?
Today, we look back in time and we see approximately 15 billion years of history. Looking forward from when the universe is very small - billions of times smaller - the Torah says six days. In truth, they both may be correct. What's exciting about the last few years in cosmology is we now have quantified the data to know the relationship of the "view of time" from the beginning of stable matter, the threshold energy of protons and neutrons (their nucleosynthesis), relative to the "view of time" today. It's not science fiction any longer. A dozen physics textbooks all bring the same number. The general relationship between nucleosynthesis, that time near the beginning at the threshold energy of protons and neutrons when matter formed, and time today is a million million. That's a 1 with 12 zeros after it. So when a view from the beginning looking forward says "I'm sending you a pulse every second," would we see a pulse every second? No. We'd see it every million million seconds. Because that's the stretching effect of the expansion of the universe.

The Talmud tells us that the soul of Adam was created at five and a half days after the beginning of the six days. That is a half day before the termination of the sixth day. At that moment the cosmic calendar ceases and an earth based calendar starts. . How would we see those days stretched by a million million? Five and a half days times a million million, gives us five and a half million million days. Dividing that by 365 days in a year, that comes out to be 15 billion years. NASA gives a value of about 14 billion years. Considering the many approximations, and that the Bible works with only six periods of time, the agreement to within a few percent is extraordinary. The universe is billons of years old from one perspective and a mere six days old from another. And both are correct!

The five and a half days of Genesis are not of equal duration. Each time the universe doubles in size, the perception of time halves as we project that time back toward the beginning of the universe. The rate of doubling, that is the fractional rate of change, is very rapid at the beginning and decreases with time simply because as the universe gets larger and larger, even though the actual expansion rate is approximately constant, it takes longer and longer for the overall size to double. Because of this, the earliest of the six days have most of the15 billion years sequestered with them. For the duration of each day and the details of how that matches with the measured history of the universe and the earth, see The Science of God.

CORRECTION TO THE CALCULATION OF THE AGE OF THE UNIVERSE
Following a talk I gave at AZUSA Pacific University, February 2011, a participant noted that when calculating the expansion ratio of space [that is, by what fraction space had stretched] from the era of nucleosynthesis to our current time, I had neglected to correct for the effect that the increase in the rate of universal expansion has on the current cosmic microwave radiation background. This increase introduces a non-linear effect. [That is, the rate of expansion is not constant, rather the rate is increasing.] The correction is in the order of 10%. Had the expansion been linear [and not super-linear resulting from the increased rate], the CMRB would be, not the currently observed 2.76 K, but 3.03 K. Introducing this correction into the exponential equation that details the duration of the six 24 hour days of Genesis Chapter One results in an age of the universe from our perspective of 14 billion years [14, 000,000,000 years]. From the Bible's perspective of time for those six evocative days of Genesis, the number of our years held compressed within each of those six 24 hour days of Genesis, starting with Day One, would be, in billions of years, respectively, 7.1; 3.6; 1.8; 0.89; 0.45; 0.23.

[Rella]

REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________

Taking Another Look At 6 Days
Or 13 Billion Years

     When we contemplate God's awesome power, there's hardly any question but that He could have completed His creation in less than six days. “In the beginning” of time, however, He chose to complete His creation in six solar days. The following declaration is either true or false, "For in six days the Lord made the heavens [universe and our solar system] and the Earth, the sea, and all that is in them" [Exodus 20:11].

    Many of our common versions say He “rested” on the seventh day. If the first six days consisted of billions of years, so did the seventh day. Does this mean God “rested” for billions of years? [The correct translation, of course, is that God “ceased” creating after the sixth day.]

    But another problem with the conception that God utilized millions/billions of years to create everything is that He instructed the Jewish people to rest on the seventh day and keep it holy. If each day consisted of millions of years, were His people to rest millions of years on each seventh day?

    “Day” is employed in the same vein in referring to the seventh as it is used in referring to the other six. Thus, whatever we attribute to the first six days, 24-hours or millions of years, we must also attribute to the seventh day. And if each of the six days comprised millions of years, the Jewish people, who were told to rest on the seventh, should have rested for millions of years. This logic is purely unacceptable.

    If we must understand the days of creation figuratively, what is wrong with figuratively understanding the days Jesus' body was in the tomb—three solar days or millions of years? True, “day” is sometimes used symbolically in the scriptures, but not in relation to creation and the time Jesus' body was in the tomb.

    Could the material from which the Earth and universe were made have existed billions of years? I understand verses 1 through 5 of the first chapter of Genesis as the first 24-hour day of creation. It was on this first day that God created the substance from which He formed the universe, created the light, and separated the light from darkness. “And there was evening, and there was morning, the first day" [v. 5]. God took a chaotic mass of material He had spoken into existence and fashioned our immaculate universe! Oh, the power of our Creator!

    "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible" [Heb. 11:3].

Buff, please consider the following, and read it slowly.

Why is it so difficult to think that if each 24 hours, that makes up a day could have been 6 separate 24 hour periods.

Or why is it so difficult to understand that the actual interpreters of Genesis, in the original languages might be wrong?

Or why is it difficult to think when the word  yom or yō·wm that God used when .... And called God the light day...
that the interpreters could have called an evening and a morning day whatever? If God called light yom or yō·wm how or who got convinced that an evening and a morning were also  day whatever (yom or yō·wm)  Nowhere have I ever read on any interpretation for yom that it means evening and morning...

And how do you reconcile Gen 2:4 "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens," into 144 consecutive hours.

Did God do all creation in a single day. Yes He could but were are told otherwise.

How do you get generations... plural into a single 24 hour period?

LOOK at this :

The Hebrew word יום (yom, Strong's #3117) means a "day," but not specifically a twenty-four hour period, but instead more generically like in "a day that something occurs." An example would be "a day of the month" (Genesis 8:4), "in that day Yahweh made a covenant" (Genesis 15:18) and "until the day" (Genesis 19:37). This word can also refer to the light part of the day in contrast to night (see Genesis 1:5 and Exodus 13:21), but the related word יומם (yomam, Strong's #3119) specifically means "daytime" as in Job 5:14. This word can be used for a time, age or season, but that is only when this word is in the plural form, which is ימים (yamim), and in my opinion should simply be translated as "days" and not time, age or season, as this can lead to incorrect interpretations of the text. The word היום (hayom) is the word יום (yom) with the prefix ה (ha) added and it literally means "the day," but we would translate it as "today."

Now reread that again.

Now, if you have a different Hebrew interlinear then I do check it out and post it.

Genesis 1 (read right to left)  NOTE: at this point there is not one iota of when verse 1 and 2  happened....  We do not know the purpose of verse 1 and 2 other to to advise the reader that  at some point in time there had to have been a beginning that would start something in the future.

1 In the beginning created God - the heavens and the earth

2 And the earth was formless, and void - and darkness [was] over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 And said God let there be light and there was light. And saw God - the light that [it was] good - and divided God between the light and between the darkness.

4. And saw God - the light that [it was] good - and divided God between the light and between the darkness.

NOTE: We have no reference point of when, after God started that he created light because for all we know when the Spirit was hovering over the waters it could have been milleas before God decided to do more and then create light. Or light may have been immediate upon the Spirit completing His hovering.

If the Spirit was hovering over the waters without light, it seems clear that light was not needed for Him.

5 And called God the light day,   IMPORTANT: the word used here for day.... what God called the light is yō·wm, (continuing the verse from the interlinear...)  and the darkness he called night. And there was evening and there was morning, day the first. -

Note: Verse 5 does not say "And the evening and the morning were the first day." It says  this particular day (yō·wm)( same word used in And called God the light day)  or period of light was the first day. And no indication of how long it was, and no indication of how soon after the Spirit was hovering over the waters that the first day (yō·wm) of light came about.

Even my copy of the Septuagint words verse 5 at 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night, and there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

Odd isn't it that in both the Interlinear and the Septuagint LXX say God called the light day and He called the darkness light... but in describing the week of creation everyone of them says evening and morning Day whatever....

Now at the risk of out staying my welcome on this... I am going to posy what the Septuagint says about the succeeding days

Day 2~ and there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
Day 3~ And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.
Day 4~ And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Day 5~ And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.
Day 6~ And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day

No indication of how long the evening was, or the "day" (yō·wm)

No indication if there were long time spans between each numbered day.

I know you have heard the phrase "Back in the Day"..... Do you know the timing of such a statement?

Try to spin this one into the accepted 144 hours of accepted creation

Interlinear... and I will do only one verse

8 And called God the firmament sky. And there was evening and there was morning,  day (yō·wm) the second -

Repeating from above:

How do you reconcile Gen 2:4 "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens," into 144 hours of creation?

Did God do all creation in a single day. Yes He could but were are told otherwise.

How do you get generations... plural into a single 24 hour period?

[Reformer]

Rella:

    It would take a volume to give detailed answers to your detailed questions. If you are having difficulty comprehending Genesis and the creation, I suggest you go to Thayer's Hebrew and Greek Lexicon. I would say the same to 4WD as well.

    A lot of scientific studies are accurate in that they coincide with Heaven's communications, but a lot of them are inaccurate in that they confute Heaven's central ideas.

    But another thought: There's a whole ton of controversial sentiments relating to the first chapter of Genesis and how God did what He did. Tell me, did the God of creation deliberately and knowingly communicate His marvelous works in such a manner that mere men cannot envision how He contrived His framework?

    Must there be thousands of conceptions fought over them until the "cows come home" before we know what He is trying to say—and has said? Is this the nature of the God we have? Yes, of course, His wisdom is oftentimes laborious and complex, such as sections of the sacred writings. But Genesis, chapter 1? No, not hardly. Let's try hard to settle on the following memorandum from Heaven...

    "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all their vast array. And on the seventh day [not billions of years] God finished His work that He had done" [Gen. 2:1-2].

Buff

[4WD]

Buff:

Gen 2:1  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2  And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
Gen 2:3  So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

God is still resting from all His work of creation.  That "day" of rest continues even today, some 6000 years or so later.  See also Hebrews 3:7-4:13.  We are living today in that "day".

[Reformer]

4WD:

    You really need to argue your point with Moses who penned Genesis, not me. As a hint, the Holiest day for the Jews under Moses consisted of 24 hours, not billions of years.

    In fact, the Old Law of Moses, which initiated the 7th day, was superseded by a new covenant and a new way. So take your billions of years up with Moses. He did a better job than I can do and is far more persuasive.

Buff

[4WD]

I am almost positive that Moses knew nothing about modern-day cosmology or Einstein's Relativity.  I really don't think that Moses was aware of the fact that energy - light beams, radio waves, gamma rays, x-rays - all travel at the speed of light, 300 million meters per second. At the speed of light, time does not pass; at that speed time stands still.

So I am not sure what my argument with Moses would be.

[Amo]

Buff, you're never going to win a debate with people who think they have more light and knowledge concerning what and how God did any particular thing, than Moses who spent so very much time in communion with God in His very presence. Telling Moses exactly what He should tell the children of Israel regarding creation, then telling Israel audibly Himself in a most awesome display of His divinity, and then writing it down for them in stone twice with His own finger.

They simply will not believe, that God meant what He simply stated. Nor any of the other scriptures which seem to back that statement up. All of these statements were written or spoken by those who simply did not understand as well as the scientists so called today. Including God Himself apparently, who couldn't tell people the truth then, because they couldn't handle it. Not like the scientists so called today, can and do.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Apparently, Jesus was not going to add any light concerning what the fourth commandment really meant either. Insisting Himself, that He did not come to change or alter any of them, nor should anyone else, unless they desired to be called least in the kingdom of heaven. No, neither God nor His Son Jesus could possibly explain such brilliantly conceived "scientific" realities as deep time slowly progressive evolutionary processes, to the extremely ignorant peoples of the past whom they created as such. They had to wait for evolution to make us smart enough first, to figure these things out apart from the holy scriptures, given to our underdeveloped ignorant and less evolved ancestors. Created by God long ago in His image, apparently as such. So be it unto them, as they choose to believe.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[Rella]

Rella:

    It would take a volume to give detailed answers to your detailed questions. If you are having difficulty comprehending Genesis and the creation, I suggest you go to Thayer's Hebrew and Greek Lexicon. I would say the same to 4WD as well.



    "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all their vast array. And on the seventh day [not billions of years] God finished His work that He had done" [Gen. 2:1-2].

Buff

You said "     "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all their vast array. And on the seventh day [not billions of years] God finished His work that He had done" [Gen. 2:1-2]."

Please prove to me that it was 144 consecutive hours of creation that included generations.(plural)  How DID that work?

Just a side note.... How many people do you know celebrate, or basically acknowledge the day we call Good Friday?

And is their acceptance of that day, the third hour when Jesus was crucified would be three hours after sunup, or about 9:00 AM, The sixth hour when darkness descended would be roughly noon, and the ninth hour when Jesus died would be about 3:00 PM?

Do they also acknowledge Jesus said "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."?

Then please explain how Jesus died at 3PM on Friday and rose early on the morning on Sunday..... and he could get 3 full nights and 3 full days in the heart of the earth?



I never in my life... as God is my witness... ever said or suggested billions of years.  I do not believe in scientific methods of dating that would even suggest such a long time spam. All the pro scientist believers on here can tell you I speak the truth.
about myself on that.

I HAVE suggested the beginning to be  before 6K, 7K or13K years ago , ( all suggested periods of time from " God created... to today),  is when it began..... But not 13.8 Billion years ago.

I HAVE suggested that the ball of dirt we walk on came into existence at some point, but was not put into use by humans until there either was a need, or a desire to create life by God.   One planet among the estimated 1-to-10 trillion orbiting planets within the  400 billion Milky Way stars , was eventually selected because someplace was needed for mankind to walk... because there was a want or a need. And all those other planets are just big balls of rock and dirt.

Can you just  imagine the complexity and grandness of forming up to 10 trillion planets... within the 400 billion milky way stars ...and that is just what we can surmise with a certain degree of accuracy... there may be more.... all in 144 consecutive hours?
Because we are assured by the YEC people that it all happened in that timespan.
Gee... I guess then that making generations (plural) in those same 144 hours is no biggie.... scrap my question on that. 

I further suggest that it was by need... (NO IDEA of what that was) ... that man  was  placed on  the earth to tend it and that he was given a soul which seems to point to their must have  been a need to create man in the first place.

NO I do not expect you to accept this.... but I read it... I have memorized it... and it is clear as a bright sunny day in my mind.

It is not I who have difficulty comprehending but you seem to.

Now... I went looking for your suggested "Thayer's Hebrew and Greek Lexicon"... and found nothting for the Hebrew....ONLY GREEK

So I went further to look at Assorted... not Strong's, as I already posted that... definitions of Yom (yō·wm ~ as spelled in the Interlinear )

Here are a few.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom

Although yom is commonly rendered as day in English translations, the word yom can be used in different ways to refer to different time spans:

Point of time (a specific day)
time period of a whole or half a day:
Period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness),
Sunrise to sunset
Sunset to next sunset
General term for time ( as in 'days of our lives')
A year "lived a lot of days"
Time period of unspecified length. "days and days"

Biblical Hebrew has a limited vocabulary, with fewer words compared to other languages, such as English or Spanish.[1][a] This means words often have multiple meanings determined by context.[9] Strong's Lexicon yom is Hebrew #3117 יוֹם [10] The word Yom's root meaning is to be hot as the warm hours of a day.

Thus "yom", in its context, is sometimes translated as: "time" (Gen 4:3, Is. 30:8); "year" (I Kings 1:1, 2 Chronicles 21:19, Amos 4:4); "age" (Gen 18:11, 24:1 and 47:28; Joshua 23:1 and 23:2); "always" (Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24 and 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7); "season" (Genesis 40:4, Joshua 24:7, 2 Chronicles 15:3); epoch or 24-hour day (Genesis 1:5,8,13,19,23,31) – see "Creationism", below.

Yom relates to the concept of time. Yom is not just for day, days, but for time in general. How yom is translated depends on the context of its use with other words in the sentence around it, using hermeneutics.[11]

The word day is used somewhat the same way in the English language, examples: "In my grandfather's day, cars did not go very fast" or "In the day of the dinosaurs there were not many mammals."

The word Yom is used in the name of various Jewish feast days; as, Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement; Yom teruah (lit., day of shouting) the Feast of Trumpets.[12]

Yom is also used in each of the days of the week in the Hebrew calendar.

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http://eurofolkradio.com/2017/03/22/true-meaning-hebrew-word-yom-genesis-1-2/

The True Meaning of the Hebrew Word YOM in Genesis 1 & 2

In Genesis1 the days weren´t literal days of 24 hours

To get a complete understanding of Genesis 1, we have to start with the concept of Yowm, the Hebrew word translated as "day" in Genesis 1.  It is true that this word is usually meant to designate a 24-hour day, but this is not always the case.  We find that, in Scripture, the Hebrew word yowm has exactly the same range of meanings as the English word day has. The meanings of both words range from a 24-hour day to an unspecified length of great age, as represented by the English words, eon and era.

it continues...

https://www.oldearth.org/word_study_yom.htm

Old Earth Creation Science
Word Study: Yom

   The Hebrew word for "day" is the word "Yom."  Young earth creationists have always argued that the word used for the days of creation can only mean a 24-hour day.  In this article, we will examine the uses of Yom in the Old Testament, and show that it can mean a wide variety of time periods.

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press)

"It can denote: 1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague "time," 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)."

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[Rella]

This posted twice.

[Reformer]

Rella:

From Thayer, Hebrew & Greek Scholar - In Genesis, chapter 1:

יוֹם
yôm
yome

"From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term),..."

    Any biblical Hebrew or Greek term must also be considered and evaluated from the context and the contend. To remove it from either establishes a mistranslation. And that's the way it is.

Buff

[4WD]

 

From Strong's:

יוֹם
yôm
yome

From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

Or as I have noted earlier, there are books written on the subject of the meaning of the Hebrew word yôm. You might do well to look into a couple.

[Alan]

"But the bible says that it's a literal day" 

[Reformer]

4WD:

    "Or as I have noted earlier, there are books written on the subject of the meaning of the Hebrew word yôm. You might do well to look into a couple."

    I'm way ahead of you, brother. I have excellent quotes from numerous authors. You might even quote Alan, whose quotation above reads, "But the bible says that it's a literal day."

Kindly & Goodnight,

Buff

[4WD]

Buff:

I think you grossly misunderstand Alan's intended meaning, perhaps much like you misunderstand God's intended meaning on the same issue.

I'm way ahead of you, brother. I have excellent quotes from numerous authors.

But I suspect all of those authors are likely YECs.

[Rella]

Rella:

From Thayer, Hebrew & Greek Scholar - In Genesis, chapter 1:

יוֹם
yôm
yome

"From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term),..."

    Any biblical Hebrew or Greek term must also be considered and evaluated from the context and the contend. To remove it from either establishes a mistranslation. And that's the way it is.

Buff

figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term)

Well    this really sums up the word without the need to be specifically defined.

Webster defines figuratively with the word so commonly assigned to Genesis creation by many....

figuratively adverb fig· u· ra· tive· ly ˈfi-g (y)ə-rə-tiv-lē Synonyms of figuratively : in a figurative way: such as a : with a meaning that is metaphorical rather than literal

Such a wonderful word when there is no concrete proof of a common belief..... 

Any biblical Hebrew or Greek term must also be considered and evaluated from the context.

Well, my evaluation is that the use of YOM in Gen 1 especially has nothing to do with a 24 hour day, and the assigned numerals after do not 144 hours meet.

Your "alleged"... or I should say Thayer's... a space of time defined by an associated term, fits perfectly if one considers that
when which ever translation you read that suggests

So the evening and the morning were the first day.... and so forth.

Have you ever wondered why during creation, as seen in Genesis 1, six times it says that there was evening and morning. But there was no "evening and morning" on the seventh day. Yet we are told ..."And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

How long was the seventh day?

SHOULD THIS BE CONSIDERED A DIFFERENT KIND OF DAY THEN DAY 1, DAY 2, DAY,3 ETC.... If so... why was it not suggested when it says God rested... Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Is it odd that the creation 6 days were completed in Chapter 1? Day 7 is not mentioned until Chapter 2.

(....  uh oh... another thought. Is it possible that Chapter 1 was to tell of the specific creation and the order in which they happened by one author and then Chapter 2 was to define things because there are no days mentioned in Chapter 2 except the 7ths that has no evening and morning mentioned? ... I digress... and will move on as this is something I am sure no one ever thought of on GC }


I still submit that each numbered day was a number of periods of time... with each possibly being longer or shorter depending on what was created in that period.

However, if one can concretely show that the word YOM , as used in Genesis, did mean a 24hour period or day... Please show me where they were back to back and not spaced apart with some time between.

If I were paining a room, along with the trim, and it took me four days to do the ceiling, day 1... to prime,  day 2...do the walls, day 3...do the trim,  day 4 ~~~And I started on a Sat( day 1) .... skipped Sunday for worship.... Continued Monday( day 2).... But Tuesday was a doctor appointment....Painted Wed day 3... Thursday had to go grocering.... Finished Fri day 4

If asked I would have said it took me a week to get the job done, when in fact it took only 4 days or 96 hours counting 24 hours a day.

Everything in my paining project would have been completed in 1 day for each... but not use the same number of hours.
Patching and priming the walls always take more hours then finally painting them

That is how I see the time in Genesis... but not just a day between each day but could well be some length of varied time.
Every time there was a completion of something time was there before the next thing, etc.

But I shall acquiesce to your beliefs and won't argue this anymore because it is an effort in futility to argue something that cannot be proven one way or another with someone who will not consider something might need a second look.

[Rella]

From Strong's:

יוֹם
yôm
yome

From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

Or as I have noted earlier, there are books written on the subject of the meaning of the Hebrew word yôm. You might do well to look into a couple.

Yep, some definitely backs me up.

Thanks.

[Rella]

"But the bible says that it's a literal day" 

Where?? Chapter and verse please.

Also where it says they are back to back and just not the number of 24 hour periods that creation was done in.

[Alan]

Where? ? Chapter and verse please.

Also where it says they are back to back and just not the number of 24 hour periods that creation was done in.

It was sarcasm, but some of our members actually do believe that the bible says it is a single 24 hour day, "in plain English" I might add 

[Rella]

It was sarcasm, but some of our members actually do believe that the bible says it is a single 24 hour day, "in plain English" I might add 

You should contribute to Babylon Bee.... Some of theirs are very believable too

[Reformer]

Rella & Alan:

    "For in six days the Lord made the heavens [universe and our solar system] and the Earth, the sea, and all that is in them" [Exodus 20:11].

Question— What part of that message from Heaven you do not understand?

Buff

[Reformer]

Rella & Alan:

    And if you are still having a problem with the Number "six," perhaps the following examples will help.

1)  "Six days you are to gather it" (Exodus 16:26). 
2)  "Six days you shall labor" (Exodus 20:9).
3)  "Six days do your work" (Exodus 23:12).
4)  "For six days the cloud covered the mountain" (Exodus 24:16).
5) "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth" (Exodus 31:17).
6)  "There are six days when you may work" (Lev. 23:3).
7)  "For six days eat unleavened bread" (Deut. 16:8).
8)  "March around the city once with all the armed men.  Do this for six days" (Joshua 6:3).
9)  "After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John" (Matt. 17:1).
10) "There are six days for work" (Luke 13:14).
11) "Six days before the Passover" (John 12:1).

Good Luck,

Buff

[NyawehNyoh]

.
There are two primary kinds of Days in the first chapter of Genesis. One is a creation day and the other is a natural day. It's very important to keep those two kinds of days distinct and separate in our thinking because they are as unalike as stones and gravel.

Natural days last only until the Sun goes down and night begins; whereas creation days are a mite ambiguous because there were no sunrises or sunsets to be seen on Earth till the fourth day. And; when you think about it; a strict chronology of evening and morning defines neither a natural day nor a calendar day, rather, it defines overnight; viz: darkness (Lev 24:2-4). In order to obtain a full 24-hour day, you'd have to define creation's Days as a day and a night rather than an evening and a morning.

In other words: the evenings and mornings related to creation days aren't solar events. The terms are merely index flags indicating the end of an unspecified period time and the simultaneous beginning of another.

Genesis 2:4 introduces another kind of day that encompasses the entire six-day endeavor; i.e. an epoch day, which are eras whose extent varies.

Anyway; this "day" thing has been a stone in the shoe for just about everybody who takes Genesis seriously. It's typically assumed that the Days of creation consisted of twenty-four hours apiece; so Bible students end up stumped when trying to figure out how to cope with the 4.5 billion-year age of the earth, and factor in the various eras, e.g. Triassic, Jurassic, Mesozoic, Cenozoic, Cretaceous, etc, plus the ice ages and the mass extinction events.
_

[Rella]

Rella & Alan:

    And if you are still having a problem with the Number "six," perhaps the following examples will help.

1)  "Six days you are to gather it" (Exodus 16:26). 
2)  "Six days you shall labor" (Exodus 20:9).
3)  "Six days do your work" (Exodus 23:12).
4)  "For six days the cloud covered the mountain" (Exodus 24:16).
5) "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth" (Exodus 31:17).
6)  "There are six days when you may work" (Lev. 23:3).
7)  "For six days eat unleavened bread" (Deut. 16:8).
8)  "March around the city once with all the armed men.  Do this for six days" (Joshua 6:3).
9)  "After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John" (Matt. 17:1).
10) "There are six days for work" (Luke 13:14).
11) "Six days before the Passover" (John 12:1).

Good Luck,

Buff

1)  "Six days you are to gather it" (Exodus 16:26).

     So on the first day we went out to gather the crops... but then a sudden storm came up of seeming monsoon type weather
and winds so high you could not stand for being blown over.

We then were of need to stay inside until the weather cleared a week later.

Once cleared we went outside on day 2 of the gathering but alas many of us got sick from new wine and we had to again stay inside for 2 more days

That then found us outside again gathering on the third day. (of gathering)

But alas, the winds came up again and we could not gather the harvest as it was blowing all over the place when we tried, so once again we went back inside wondering how long we would be in this time. Ah, as luck would have it by noon the following day we were able to get at it again

But on day four it was a perfect gathering day, even though a bit short.

day 5 we worked with no problems and as we bedded down for the night were prayerful that the next day would be just as fine.

So up we got at sunrise... and what a splendid sunrise it was. Breakfast into us and no sooner opened the door when the sky opened and the rain came teaming down. ( You know... red skies in morning...)So heavy that you could not see the fields from the house, and lasted for a great many days.

I remember sitting there and wondering if this somehow was a curse from Noah. But after 4 days the rain stopped... only to reveal that the lower lands, and even some of the building and houses were flooded. The water was going no where.
We could see the crops that still needed harvesting because they were on higher ground and the rain had drained down lower.

There simply was no way that we could go harvest, and the animals were incapable of walking through the mud, and the wagons would get stuck as well so we lost another 2 1/2 days waiting for it to drain.... and dry some.

Finally or 6th day to harvest was here and we did manage to finish.

So... all in all it took 16 days to complete the 6 days of harvest.

So... my question is this. .
If someone happened by to ask how long the harvest took that year would you say 6 days... or 16 when someone had already said do it in 6 days

It is,  I repeat, not the number six I have trouble with. I know there were 6 literal creation periods... or time spans.

Modified to not expound!!!