Was God pre-existent by himself?

[Rella]

Jarrod,

I am starting a new thread with your comment to my comment below to get it away from that EGW free for all and this is worthy to be stand alone.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

#28

Yesterday at 18:19:04
Quote from: Rella on Yesterday at 11:05:23
This is so false because any idiot would know that #1. The Trinity always was. For part of it to be begotten means that it was not always... until the begetting was done.

My understanding is thus:

The Father is pre-existent, having no origin or starting point.  The nature of His existence is one of intelligence - He is primarily a Mind.  From the beginning of His existence, all thing have been known to Him.

But at some certain point in the past, He spoke.  That spoken Word contained all the thoughts and logic of the original Mind which had existed from eternity past and carried the power of creation.

So, does that Word have a date it was created?  No, it existed as-yet-unspoken from eternity past.  But only from that certain day forward was it pronounced (aka begotten).  And since the speaking of the Word caused the creation, we can rightly say that "all things were made by Him" whether we are referring to the Father or the Son.

Clear as mud?

Actually Jarrod it is only cloudy.

If God pre-existent by himself that begs for more then just a cursory opinion. Such as

And this is under the assumption that one is a Trinity believer, one would need to understand , if possible , if the Holy Spirit
was always separate from the mind, or if He also , at some point
was pronounced.

Also, If the Word came into being because the Mind spoke I would not call that begotten.

So let's take a look at what I have come to learn and see where I am wrong.

Monogenes - Begotten Definition

Begotten is the English translation of the Greek word "Monogenes," meaning "single of its kind, only." This word is variously translated into English as "only," "one and only," and "only begotten."

It is said the word "begotten" is used in the Bible to describe the unique relationship between God the Father and Jesus Christ, His Son. This term is used to clarify the special nature of Jesus's relationship with God as part of the Holy Trinity and to distinguish Him from created beings. I agree.

Also, The expression "only begotten Son" appears in John 3:16, where it is written  as follows: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

And this Begetting required a woman because the Son was to have mortal characteristics and leanings.

Monogenes - Begotten Definition
Begotten is the English translation of the Greek word "Monogenes," meaning "single of its kind, only." This word is translated into English as "only," "one and only," and "only begotten."

According to the New Testament Greek Lexicon, Monogenes can be used in two contexts:

Used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)

Used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

ThIS Greek word "monogenes" comes from the terms "Monos," meaning "alone (without a companion), only, merely," and "Ginomai," meaning "to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being."

Ergo... Jesus is the only begotten Son. It should be understood that monogenes is not referring to being created or conceived as if Jesus wasn't eternal, for Jesus always has and will always be God eternal.

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)

Now... "Begotten" in the Bible

The word "begotten" is used to describe the unique relationship between God the Father and Jesus Christ, His Son. This term is used to clarify the special nature of Jesus's relationship with God as part of the Holy Trinity and to distinguish Him from created beings.

In the Bible, the phrase "only begotten Son of God" is only used to refer to Jesus Christ. This phrase is used to emphasize that Jesus is the only Son of God who is both fully God and fully human. He is not simply a human being who is somehow special or divine, but he is both God and man in one person.

There is no reference that the "Word" was begotten so lets try to find a way to describe how a separation from the mind could happen that did not use the begotten word.

I am open to suggestions.

I have always been taught, read, conversed and debated that the Word was ... as John 1 states... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Peshitta "1In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God. 2This One himself was at the origin with God."

Questions now abound from John...

What is "the beginning" or What is "the origin"

For myself I have understood that it is the Trinity that makes up
the Godhead. And the Godhead consists of three distinct persons - the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All are equally omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal, and unchanging, but each has unique functions.

To me this makes the Word for eternity past always present with the father.

Maybe I can be clearer in my thoughts regarding the concept of monotheism.  There is one God There is one unified divine nature.

This divine nature is the nature or quality which identifies one as deity and is shared by three distinct personalities, and these personalities are characterized in the New Testament as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Also... each of the three personalities of the Godhead is eternal and equal in essence, though they may assume individual roles in their respective work.

I admittedly have trouble thinking of the Word as the Son.
Partially because there was never a mention that the Word was the son until He became incarnate in the Form of Jesus, through Mary.

I have thought perhaps the concept of Father and Son arose and stuck because of Jesus' birth . IDK and it does not matter.

John's description says it best. " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

What does matter is your concept that God was, and at some point the the Word came into being, separate from God.

"it existed as-yet-unspoken from eternity past.  But only from that certain day forward was it pronounced (aka begotten)"

As usual... I am confused.