The Holy Spirit, upon, in or absent in the Old Testament?

[Dave...]

The contention between people is in the capacity in which the Prophets, and some kings etc. had the Holy Spirit. It's not taught in Scripture that the general Old Testament believer had this, no matter how one defines what the prophets, kings and a few others had. The common believer had the presence of God when those Prophets etc. who had the Holy Spirit upon them were near. They had the presence of God in the Temple, and they had the presence of God in Jesus, God incarnate. So, setting the common believer aside, unless one wants to offer Biblical proof that indicates something other that what I wrote here.

I want to get into some of these proof verses used to prove that the Holy Spirit was in OT Prophets. Start with these.

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Genesis 41:38, This is Pharaoh recognizing that the Spirit of God is working through Joseph. It's Pharaohs perspective recorded, and he could not know if the Spirit of God was in Joseph or upon him. He only recognized that what happened through Joseph was from God, not Joseph. It's called a 'narrative description' rather than a source for strict systematic doctrine. This does not teach that the Holy Spirit was in him.
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Numbers 27:18 There is no "the" before the word "spirit" in the original languages of this passage, only "spirit". KJV translators added "the" it to make the English smoother, and was never added to make the claim the the Spirit was within him. It literally reads "a man in whom is spirit". The lack of the definite article has most credible theologians agreeing that that passage is speaking of a quality, or attitude of spirit. However, in Numbers 11:17, we see how the Hebrew language works when they want to specify the Divine source, they use a definite article. Speaking to Moses.....Numbers 11:17 " Then I will come down and talk with you there. I will take of the Spirit that is upon you and will put the same upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself alone." This is not teaching that the Holy Spirit was in him.
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Isaiah 63:11 KJV reflects back to that same Numbers 11:17. Remember, "upon you", and "upon them" from Numbers 11:17? Same people. The literal translation options for Isaiah 63:11 are "in the midst," "the inner part," or "among them". When applied to the camp of Israel, a collective group (which is what "within him" from Isaiah 63:11 is speaking of), it's always translated "in the midst", or "among them". Remember, the singular suffix ("his") in Isaiah 63:11 refers to the corporate body of Israel.

[Dave...]

One thing that I find odd about this whole debate is there is never a verse in the OT that I know of that says that actual believers were indwelt in the OT. The OT always uses people who were commanded by God to accomplish something (not coming to faith) who had the Spirit put upon them. Some people think that "upon" and "in" are the same thing. Some people think that it's the NT that allows the Spirit of God to have a union with the Spirit of Christ, but I've seen the Holy Spirit called the Spirit of Christ in the OT. Jonah comes to mind. I still suspect that there could be a difference beyond the obvious in relationship between believer and the Holy Spirit from the OT Holy Spirit and the NT Holy Spirit, something having to do with the works of Christ being accomplished. I believe the Holy Spirit coming upon at Pentecost would be explained by that. Either the disciples actually received the Holy Spirit Promised indwelling when Jesus breathed on them (still after the death and resurrection, but before the ascension), which could explain the "upon" in early Acts, or something else is going on. The translations are not always the best, so that's always something to keep an eye on.

I try to use the clear scripture to make a path, then I take a second look at some of the stuff that does line up perfect. There just so much that defines what happened at Pentecost, it's hard to rewrite all that for a few passages that don't line up perfectly.

Some people appeal to David asking the Father not to take His Spirit from Him, but that passage does not specify indwelling. And there are so many verses speaking of the coming of the Holy spirit, not a dose, but the actual indwelling, which is what the baptism with the Holy Spirit is.

[yogi bear]

Just a thought In the new testament we read of two different functions as you seem to be indicating. The spirit upon as in Act 2  with the power of signs for witness as in Mark 16:17-20 and the indwelling which produces fruit within the person as see in Galatians 5:22-23

The spirit upon is not the promised indwelling and only select few have it whereas every believer gets the indwelling spirit as a seal so yes there is a difference.

Im think that yes the same spirit upon in the new testament worked the same in the old testament but was not the indwelling. The indwelling is only a new covenant promise the way I read it.

That is my input at this time hoping others join in and this becomes a good study for us.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

It's kind of hard to believe that a God dwelling in a man was unknown to Israel, when all the neighboring countries know of such a thing.

For example, "Pharoah" means "house of Ra."  The god Ra was said to indwell the Pharoah.

[4WD]

It's kind of hard to believe that a God dwelling in a man was unknown to Israel, when all the neighboring countries know of such a thing.

For example, "Pharoah" means "house of Ra."  The god Ra was said to indwell the Pharoah.

With respect to God indwelling in the OT times, it was never stated to be permanent for all who believed. At best it seems that it was temporary and then only for a few selected individuals.

[Dave...]

Just a thought In the new testament we read of two different functions as you seem to be indicating. The spirit upon as in Act 2  with the power of signs for witness as in Mark 16:17-20 and the indwelling which produces fruit within the person as see in Galatians 5:22-23

The spirit upon is not the promised indwelling and only select few have it whereas every believer gets the indwelling spirit as a seal so yes there is a difference.

Im think that yes the same spirit upon in the new testament worked the same in the old testament but was not the indwelling. The indwelling is only a new covenant promise the way I read it.

That is my input at this time hoping others join in and this becomes a good study for us.

Acts 1:8 is qualified with Acts 1:4. The promise of the Father, the baptism with the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13). Which was only available in the NT, since it's the indwelling that places us in Christ gives us the life promised (Romans 8:9-11).

"Upon" in Acts 1:8 is an accurate translation, though I wonder what is going on there. Because all the other Scripture speaking of the same event says "in them". Like John 14:17. Could it be something unique here, since the signs of the tongues of fire rested "upon them" as a sign? Also they were all filled with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:1-4, which is not upon or the indwelling, but means to be more under the control of the Holy Spirit. People can and are filled many times.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit just means being more under His control, and not receiving more of Him. Plus, if they already had the Spirit in them when Jesus breathed on them, then that could make what happened at Pentecost unique to them only. Mostly because of the signs that came with it. But the filling.

Is the promise of "upon" in Acts 1:8 just a filling, which assumes John 20:22 that they received the indwelling there?

Some say that what happened at John 20:22 was the filling, which also happened in the OT as scripture records, and Acts was the indwelling.

It's going to be hard to draw anything definitive from Acts 1-2. It's so unique in so many ways. I know one thing, John prophesied about it. Jesus said it was the promise of the Father that they were going to receive. That promise was not something that they already had. And Promise of the Father is also used in Luke 24:49 (where "upon" is also used), and Acts 2:33, which both coincide with many passages in John speaking of the giving of the Holy spirit, the indwelling, and the life that comes with that indwelling.

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Here's what Macarthur said.

"Being filled with the spirit must be distinguished from being baptized with the spirit. The apostle Paul carefully defines the baptism with the spirit as that act of Christ by which He places believers into His body (Rom. 6:4-6; 1Cor.12:13; Gal. 3:27). In contrast to much errant teaching today, the New Testament nowhere commands believers to seek the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is a sovereign, single, unrepeatable act on Gods part, and is no more an experience than are its companions justification and adoption. Although some wrongly view the baptism with the Spirit as the initiation into the ranks of the spiritual elite, nothing could be further from the truth. The purpose of the baptism with the spirit is not to divide the body of Christ, but to unify it. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, through the baptism with the Spirit "we were all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13; cf. Gal.3:26-27; Eph. 4:4-6)

Unlike the baptism with the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit is an experience and should be continuous. Although filled initially on the day of Pentecost, Peter was filled again in Acts 4:8. Many of the same people filled with the Spirit in Acts 2 were filled again in Acts 4:31. Acts 6:5 describes Stephen as a man "full of faith and the Holy Spirit," yet Acts 7:55 records his being filled again. Paul was filled with the Spirit in Acts 9:17 and again in Acts 13:9.

While there is no command in scripture to be baptized with the Spirit, believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18 ). The grammatical construction of that passage indicates believers are to be continuously being filled with the Spirit. Those who would be filled with the Spirit must first empty themselves. That involves confession of sin and dying to selfishness and self will. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to consciously practice the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and to have a mind saturated with the Word of God. Colossians 3:16-25 delineates the results of "letting the word of Christ richly dwell" in us. They are the same ones that result from the filling of the Spirit (Eph. 5:19-33). As believers yield the moment by moment decisions of life to His control, they "walk by the Spirit" (Gal. 5:16). The baptism of the Spirit grants the power that the filling with the Spirit unleashes." (Macarthur)

[Dave...]

Here's a couple of more passages that some try to use as proof that the Holy spirit indwelt OT believers.

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Galatians 4:28-29: The birth of Isaac was a miracle, thus he was born of the Spirit. This doesn't doesn't mean that he was born again.

Isaiah 57:15 :The Hebrew reader would immediately connect this passage to the physical Temple and the role of the Prophets within the community (Holy Spirit upon Prophets, Kings, etc., provides the presence of God for all who are around them). God cares more about the human heart than the condition of a Temple. This points directly to the NT indwelling. But is not the indwelling itself.

[Dave...]

Some may ask, how could an OT believer believe if he wasn't indwelt and born again? The same way we do in the NT.

The Light

Just like Jesus was the Word, and the Word became flesh. The Word which is light, became flesh. Could the Word of God be the same as the presence of God? Like the Temple in the OT.

I believe that's why the OT was mostly taught in type, because they were not born again and could not see it any other way. It was laid out in pictures. That's why they didn't really have a true understanding of the deeper truths until the NT indwelling, which is where a person is indwelt, placed into Christ, and as a result, placed into His death and raised up with Him, born again (Romans 6:3-11).

John 16:12-15 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

They only needed enough light to be drawn and believe. They can get that without the indwelling and without being born again. Jesus kind of shed some light on the belief part here. Speaking of Himself, the light again...(I believe the emphasis should be on the presence of God), He said this...

John 12:34-36 The people answered Him, "We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?" Then Jesus said to them, "A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

Could a person receive light without the Spirit within them? I think so, since the Spirit was not yet given when Jesus said that. I think it's important to make a distinction between believing, and the life we receive as a result, also sometimes called faith. I know the Calvinist way is to see them both as a the same, but I think the Bible makes a distinction between the two, believing, and the life, called faith that results. We should too. To apply a specific verse that's speaking of the initial faith, to the ongoing faith, the life, or the ongoing faith, to the initial believing, or both, is going to create a mess. The life is the distinction between the two. Believe and receive the life with the indwelling. Initial believing can still be from God, but it's not from being born again. Being born again is the result of believing. I believe that there is a prevenient grace, albeit limited in the OT, from the Light.

Here's one verse of more that makes the distinction. Remember, believe and receive the indwelling (Ephesians 1:13-14, Galatians 3:2-3), is the same as believe and receive the life. Which is the same as a Gospel message, believe and receive eternal life (John 3:16). We don't have life without the Holy Spirit indwelling (Romans 8:9-11).

OT-John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

The Word is light. Jesus is light, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word became flesh. Jesus said that if they believed Moses, they would believe Him, because Moses testified of Him. They were not born again.

From this light OT believers not only believed, but were owed the promise of the Father, the life. OT believers were still not indwelt and born again.

John 7:38-39 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

With respect to God indwelling in the OT times, it was never stated to be permanent for all who believed.

I'm not sure it says that in the New Testament, either.

At best it seems that it was temporary and then only for a few selected individuals.

Yes, but the idea of a god indwelling a man... they had to have been aware of the idea.  It was at the heart of the Egyptian religion, which they clearly knew something about.

[Dave...]

I'm not sure it says that in the New Testament, either.
Yes, but the idea of a god indwelling a man... they had to have been aware of the idea.  It was at the heart of the Egyptian religion, which they clearly knew something about.

The indwelling Holy Spirit was the Promise of the Father. This placed the Holy Spirit, and as a result the life, in us, and that in turn placed us into Christ. When we're placed into Christ, that also places us into His death, and raises us up with Him, born again. Also In Him is our justification.

OT believers were given this in promise only. The Way, the Truth, and the Life, the promised "Seed" is realized with that indwelling, which spiritually baptizes us into Christ by faith. That baptism, that indwelling, ushered in the New Covenant Promise, the promised "Seed",  began the New Testament.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. (John 7:38-39)

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

There are many that can say the same if you connect the dots, like this...

NT-Romans 8:9-10 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

compare to...

OT-John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

compare to...

NT-Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Like that. 

[Dave...]

This is from another post I made in this forum recently, but it applies.

Hebrews 11:38-39 tells us that those heroes of faith all died having not received the promise. In fact, it also says that the OT heroes were not made perfect apart from the writer of Hebrews, and those who he was writing to. The writer, and who he was writing to were still alive when that was written. This means the writer is not speaking of an eternal state, as Calvin believes, he's speaking of justification (Hebrews 10:14). That's why they were not allowed to enter the holy of holies until after the cross (John 3:13-14).

In fact, In John 13:36-38 Jesus tells Peter he cannot go where He is going "now", but later. This has nothing to do with Peters ministry needing to be fulfilled, and has everything to do with the cross. The teaching goes on into chapter 14:1-6, where Jesus says He's going to prepare a place for them so that where He is they may also be. He said that He will come again and then they will have these things, and be able to be where He is. The "come again" in John 14:3 is qualified by John 14:16-21 ("I will no leave you orphans"). He's speaking of the indwelling Holy Spirit, which began to be given at Pentecost, and places a believer in Christ. This is why back in John 13:38, when Thomas asked Jesus what "the way" was, Jesus answered that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The promised "Seed" by which the promises are realized through.

The Promised is realized in Christ, that's where a person is born again, that's where we're imputed with His righteousness, and sin is atoned. But only after the death, resurrection, and ascension were these saving ingredients available when we're made one with Jesus and placed into Him with the indwelling. The Holy Spirit needed that blood from the cross to be able to enter us and give us these things through Christ Jesus.

OT believers were saved just like NT believers, but only by promise. But that promise was not realized the moment that it was made. OT believers were not born again, they were not literally justified. They were owed these things, but by promise. because it was not yet realized, nor could it be, until after the death, resurrection, and ascension.

All those recorded as coming to faith in Acts are true OT believers. Actual salvation came to them, both Gentile and Jew, when they believed the Gospel and and received the indwelling Holy Spirit. These were predestined to believe the Gospel because they already loved God and were known by Him (Romans 8:28-30, 1 Corinthians 8:3). Given to the Son by the Father, predestined to hear and believe the Gospel, receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, and be placed in Christ where the Promise is realized, Just like Paul said in Galatians 3:26-29.

This is what defines the NT. It's the promise realized through the promised "Seed". For those it was owed in the past, and for anyone after the Spirit was given the moment that they first believe.

Think about it, the OT priests could not enter the the holy of holies on credit. Actual blood needed to shed. This is a picture, and paints the reality that I'm trying to share with you. We are called Temples of the Holy Spirit in the NT. God will not be joined to us by the indwelling Holy Spirit until the indwelling Holy Spirit comes into us with the blood of the cross that we're made clean by. Him in us, we're in Him.

OT believers were not yet indwelt, because they didn't hear the Gospel and believe. They were not yet "in Christ", the only Way, Truth and Life. There were no saving ingredients "now" to justify, and make the born again. All they had was the presence of God.

Calvinism has the OT believers having all these promises already, but that reality was impossible according to Scripture. They must be in Christ after the death resurrection and ascension. And it's the Holy Spirit indwelling that joins us to Him, or places us onto Him, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Everything that was needed to begin this 'placing into' Christ, the Church, began with the giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

The indwelling Holy Spirit was the Promise of the Father. This placed the Holy Spirit, and as a result the life, in us, and that in turn placed us into Christ. When we're placed into Christ, that also places us into His death, and raises us up with Him, born again. Also In Him is our justification.

OT believers were given this in promise only. The Way, the Truth, and the Life, the promised "Seed" is realized with that indwelling, which spiritually baptizes us into Christ by faith. That baptism, that indwelling, ushered in the New Covenant Promise, the promised "Seed",  began the New Testament.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. (John 7:38-39)

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

There are many that can say the same if you connect the dots, like this...

NT-Romans 8:9-10 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

compare to...

OT-John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

compare to...

NT-Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Like that. 

Good post.

How about Job, and its El Shaddai?

There's two ways to parse it.  El S-DY (God Almighty) or El SD-Y (God my familiar spirit).  The translators have gone with the former.  I am not sure they're right.

[Dave...]

Good post.

How about Job, and its El Shaddai?

There's two ways to parse it.  El S-DY (God Almighty) or El SD-Y (God my familiar spirit).  The translators have gone with the former.  I am not sure they're right.

That's the lens that they see it through. Unfortunately, speaking soley in terms of linguistics, when Scripture allows equal options in translation, ones personal beliefs can be inserted into Scripture. Even with the best intentions, error can be put into Scripture.

I believe that's what happened when we're told to be believe and be baptized into the name of Jesus for salvation in Acts 2:38 and a few other verses. The options are that the baptism could be part of the cause of salvation along with believing, or part of the result, and not part of the cause. Given the rest of the Bible, the translations of Acts 2:38 and a few like it, would seem to be in error because they list water baptism as part of the cause of salvation. I mean, the Gospel message itself is believe and be saved. People cling to those few passages at the expense of the rest of the Bible.

[Dave...]

I wanted to get into the some of the ones that we know were OT believers, like in Acts 19. Paul asks them "did you receive the Holy Spirit since you believed?" These were disciples of John the Baptist, publicly identified with John and his teaching through water baptism of the coming promised Messiah who will baptize them with the Holy Spirit and fire. That's where their understanding stopped. They missed the whole thing. Jesus, His ministry, His death, resurrection and ascension. Their answer to Paul's question told the story. While the word "upon" is used here, Paul's words clarify what is meant when He asks if they had received "the" Holy Spirit after they believed. These were true OT believers who had not received the indwelling, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. These are ones who loved the Father, and thus were known by Him (1 Corinthians 8:3), and predestined to hear the Gospel and believe, and in Christ be conformed to Christlikeness (Romans 8:28-30). These were given to the Son by the Father.  Note: that the writer, Luke, called them disciples before Paul spoke to them.

Acts 19:1-7 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Now the men were about twelve in all.

[Dave...]

Cornelius...OT believer.

Acts 10:2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.

Lydia...OT believer.

Acts 16:14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

[4WD]

That's the lens that they see it through. Unfortunately, speaking soley in terms of linguistics, when Scripture allows equal options in translation, ones personal beliefs can be inserted into Scripture. Even with the best intentions, error can be put into Scripture.

I believe that's what happened when we're told to be believe and be baptized into the name of Jesus for salvation in Acts 2:38 and a few other verses. The options are that the baptism could be part of the cause of salvation along with believing, or part of the result, and not part of the cause. Given the rest of the Bible, the translations of Acts 2:38 and a few like it, would seem to be in error because they list water baptism as part of the cause of salvation. I mean, the Gospel message itself is believe and be saved. People cling to those few passages at the expense of the rest of the Bible.

I think that it is a mistake to treat baptism as a cause of salvation, if by causing, is meant the actual means by which salvation is brought about.  Baptism  is that point in time in the life of one who has come to believe in God when God saves the believer.

Only God can save a person. When and under what circumstances God saves a person is what we seek to know and understand.  That is what gets so garbled and confused.  The Calvinist believes that salvation has nothing whatsoever to do with the one being saved.  Some believe that salvation occurs the instant one believes, i.e., has faith, in God.  Others believe that faith is indeed a condition that one must meet in order that God saves, but that it is not the only condition, even if it is the premiere condition.

I would add here that there are indeed passages which speak of faith as the condition which leads to salvation that do not mention any other conditions.  But there are no passages which ever denies that the other conditions are not necessary.  There is no verse that states directly that faith is the only condition for which one needs to fulfil in order that God saves.

Those passages that speak of baptism or repentance or confession as conditions for salvation are not in contradiction to those that speak of only believing.  It is not necessary when speaking of conditions for salvation to state all the conditions every time obtaining salvation is mentioned.

I would question anyone who claims to believe in God who does not believe what God has said.

[4WD]

I wanted to get into the some of the ones that we know were OT believers, like in Acts 19. Paul asks them "did you receive the Holy Spirit since you believed?" These were disciples of John the Baptist, publicly identified with John and his teaching through water baptism of the coming promised Messiah who will baptize them with the Holy Spirit and fire. That's where their understanding stopped. They missed the whole thing. Jesus, His ministry, His death, resurrection and ascension. Their answer to Paul's question told the story. While the word "upon" is used here, Paul's words clarify what is meant when He asks if they had received "the" Holy Spirit after they believed. These were true OT believers who had not received the indwelling, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. These are ones who loved the Father, and thus were known by Him (1 Corinthians 8:3), and predestined to hear the Gospel and believe, and in Christ be conformed to Christlikeness (Romans 8:28-30). These were given to the Son by the Father.  Note: that the writer, Luke, called them disciples before Paul spoke to them.

Acts 19:1-7 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Now the men were about twelve in all.

I would ask you, at what point in that process do you believe that those men received the indwelling Holy Spirit?  When and how were they baptized with the Holy Spirit?

[Dave...]

I think that it is a mistake to treat baptism as a cause of salvation, if by causing, is meant the actual means by which salvation is brought about.  Baptism  is that point in time in the life of one who has come to believe in God when God saves the believer.

Only God can save a person. When and under what circumstances God saves a person is what we seek to know and understand.  That is what gets so garbled and confused.  The Calvinist believes that salvation has nothing whatsoever to do with the one being saved.  Some believe that salvation occurs the instant one believes, i.e., has faith, in God.  Others believe that faith is indeed a condition that one must meet in order that God saves, but that it is not the only condition, even if it is the premiere condition.

There is a baptism that saves, it's just not water baptism. There are verses that at a glance would appear to support Acts 2:38, and Mark 16:16 etc., and the claim of water baptism and faith are necessary for salvation, but those passages are always speaking of the Spirit baptism, and not water. Those who do this use passages like 1 Peter 3:21, and Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:9-14. Their error is assuming that where ever the word baptism is used that it's speaking of water baptism. Water is not part of the definition of baptism, it simple means placing into, immerse into. Water baptism places us into water, Spirit baptism places us into Christ Jesus.

It is faith alone, or believing alone that justifies. Then the practical side of salvation is the evidence of a saved person, and is also described in Scripture as being saved. In Hebrews it says that God has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. That's, justified, and being sanctified. One is a necessary means to be justified and begin the sanctification process (Believe and be saved from the power and the penalty of sin), and the other would be a necessary evidence of this life and it's justification, that is, someone who is being sanctified and being conformed to Christlikeness could only do this by the power of God within Him. The evidence is for us, God already knows. 

I would add here that there are indeed passages which speak of faith as the condition which leads to salvation that do not mention any other conditions. But there are no passages which ever denies that the other conditions are not necessary.  There is no verse that states directly that faith is the only condition for which one needs to fulfil in order that God saves.

For justification there is. Saved means delivered. We are delivered from the power and penalty of sin from our initial believing, when we're "placed into" Jesus. It's Jesus who places the Holy Spirit in us, and we are intern placed into Him. That's when we're born again (beginning the process of practical sanctification), and justified. It's a done deal. The evidence of life/justification that results from our spiritual union with Jesus, is in the fact that we're being delivered/saved from sin as we begin to be conformed to Christlikeness. Positional sanctification is the former, and practical sanctification is that latter. 

Those passages that speak of baptism or repentance or confession as conditions for salvation are not in contradiction to those that speak of only believing.  It is not necessary when speaking of conditions for salvation to state all the conditions every time obtaining salvation is mentioned.

I would question anyone who claims to believe in God who does not believe what God has said.

It's necessary to make a distinction between justification, positional sanctification, and practical sanctification. Believe and be saved is the Gospel message. Note that Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 are among those listed in the link below.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/believe_in_the_name_of_jesus_and_be_saved

[Dave...]

I would ask you, at what point in that process do you believe that those men received the indwelling Holy Spirit?  When and how were they baptized with the Holy Spirit?

These true OT believers, who were owed the Promise of the Father, received the placing into with the Holy Spirit when they believed the Gospel. In the OT, true believers believed what was revealed to them at that time. They loved God and were known by Him. These were given to the Son by the Father. Predestined to reach the end that gives them all that was promised to them. Those promises are only realized "in Christ", the promised "Seed", and only after the death resurrection and ascension. To be placed into Christ one must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit. To be indwelt with the Holy Spirit, called the placing into [Jesus] with/by the [indwelling] Holy Spirit, otherwise known as the baptism with the Holy Spirit, began at Pentecost, after the DRA, and Jesus ascends, then, and only then, is that indwelling possible.

Those OT believers, who had not heard the Gospel, being predestined to hear it and believe, because Jesus' sheep hear His voice and know Him [because they know the Father], and will come to Him. You can see God's providence in action, actively bringing the Gospel to all these True OT believers all through out Acts, then they believe, then they receive the indwelling along with the signs, all God's promises realized for them in Christ.

Salvation has come to the Gentiles, just like the Jews.

After all true OT believers, both living and dead were placed into Christ Jesus and saved, promises delivered, the transition recorded in Acts is over.

For us today, we are "immersed into" spiritual union with Christ Jesus the moment we first believe. Jesus always is the baptizer, and the Holy Spirit always is the Agent of that "baptism", which "places [us] into" a spiritual union with Christ Jesus. When we're "placed into" Jesus with/by the Holy Spirit, we're "placed into" the Body of Christ, the One True Church, a spiritual body. We are in Him, and He is in us.

The OT believers who had passed already, being physically dead, and having not received those promises (Hebrews11:38-39, "not made perfect apart from us"), and could not yet ascend to be with the Father (John 1:13-14) received those promises when Jesus descended for three days and preached to those spirits in prison, which is in Hades, the believer side, Abrahams bosom, Paradise, a kind of holding cell. Only Jesus had the key to Hades and death, and what ever happened down there, they were made right and able to ascend with Him, Him leading "captivity captive" and "giving gifts to men" (indwelling). I believe that He shared the Gospel with them, declaring who He was. Whether they just received the Spirit, I don't know.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

That's the lens that they see it through. Unfortunately, speaking soley in terms of linguistics, when Scripture allows equal options in translation, ones personal beliefs can be inserted into Scripture. Even with the best intentions, error can be put into Scripture.

I am of the opinion that where Hebrew is ambiguous, it's usually on purpose.  Unless there's some compelling reason to exclude some reading, we should take both/all meanings.

[Dave...]

I am of the opinion that where Hebrew is ambiguous, it's usually on purpose.  Unless there's some compelling reason to exclude some reading, we should take both/all meanings.

Thanks for the reply.

I agree, until we see enough context in the Bible to comfortably see one option of translation as the correct one. Linguistically there may be options, but the Biblical context will narrow those options, or leave us with only one. I guess my point was that the context is ignored for the translation wanted, like the ones that claim water baptism and belief for salvation. Clearly, the few verses that say that contradict the rest of the Bible, and those few verses do linguistically allow for water baptism to not be part of the cause of salvation, but something that was done at roughly the same time. The correct option linguistically, which looks to Biblical context to make that determination, is ignored by those who want the translation to be water baptism and faith saves.

[Dave...]

Here's a thought.

In the OT, is the filling of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit coming "upon" someone for a specific task synonymous? Both accomplish the same thing.

MacArthur

"Being filled with the spirit must be distinguished from being baptized with the spirit. The apostle Paul carefully defines the baptism with the spirit as that act of Christ by which He places believers into His body (Rom. 6:4-6; 1Cor.12:13; Gal. 3:27). In contrast to much errant teaching today, the New Testament nowhere commands believers to seek the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is a sovereign, single, unrepeatable act on Gods part, and is no more an experience than are its companions justification and adoption. Although some wrongly view the baptism with the Spirit as the initiation into the ranks of the spiritual elite, nothing could be further from the truth. The purpose of the baptism with the spirit is not to divide the body of Christ, but to unify it. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, through the baptism with the Spirit "we were all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13; cf. Gal.3:26-27; Eph. 4:4-6)

Unlike the baptism with the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit is an experience and should be continuous. Although filled initially on the day of Pentecost, Peter was filled again in Acts 4:8. Many of the same people filled with the Spirit in Acts 2 were filled again in Acts 4:31. Acts 6:5 describes Stephen as a man "full of faith and the Holy Spirit," yet Acts 7:55 records his being filled again. Paul was filled with the Spirit in Acts 9:17 and again in Acts 13:9.

While there is no command in scripture to be baptized with the Spirit, believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18 ). The grammatical construction of that passage indicates believers are to be continuously being filled with the Spirit. Those who would be filled with the Spirit must first empty themselves. That involves confession of sin and dying to selfishness and self will. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to consciously practice the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and to have a mind saturated with the Word of God. Colossians 3:16-25 delineates the results of "letting the word of Christ richly dwell" in us. They are the same ones that result from the filling of the Spirit (Eph. 5:19-33). As believers yield the moment by moment decisions of life to His control, they "walk by the Spirit" (Gal. 5:16). The baptism of the Spirit grants the power that the filling with the Spirit unleashes." (Macarthur)

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I am, and have been inclined to consider the possibility that the Holy Spirit being "upon" someone in the OT is synonymous with the Holy Spirit filling. Both equip that person for service. This is distinct from the NT indwelling, which can also come with the Holy Spirit filling, even more than once. That would make 'specific people' in the OT being filled with the Holy Spirit for certain tasks, but not indwelt. In the NT, all 'believers' would be indwelt, and filled, preferably continuously for their ministry as believers. It's a very intriguing thought to consider and test to Scripture. It fits very well.