"Contend for the Faith": a study of Jude

[Salt & Light]

I'm sorry I'm still stalled on Balaam. As I think through the account of Balaam & Balak I keep coming up with questions on two points:

• Why 7 alters of sacrifice? (Num 23: 1 & 23: 29)

I'm not aware of God requiring the use of multiple alters for sacrifice. However I think that it was customary in worship of pagan beliefs?

• Verse 24: 1 "... he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments,..."

Balaam was employing the use of enchantments. Could this also be sorcery? Some translations use the word sorcery. If this is correct then Balaam is working outside the will of God.

If either one or both of these explanations are accurate Balaam was adding to the word of God with ritual and/or mystery by blending superstition with the pure word of God. Is this happening today with anyone or any churches you know of?   

One key that cannot be denied is God's sovereignty over His people through this account.

God Bless,
Marc

[peck]

Wow Mark...We go to the OT to solve the mystery in Jude and end up with a bigger mystery...good challenge..and I have no perception that would clear up anything...

A review in my mind of what happened in Numbers 23 & 24...is that it explains how much money was offered to Balaam..which Balak said was a handsomely amount..That gives us a clue to Balaams motives..

But after trying 3(I think) different locations with 7 alters,the Spirit of the Lord would fall on him and he would end up blessing Israel instead of cursing them..after which Balak would not give him the money...Balaam ended up returning home and Balak went his own way...

What has that got to do with Jude? mystery or maybe we haven't found the answer yet...A prophet that was false to Balaam or false to God..Was he a false teacher when he accepted the job to curse for money's sake ..yet ended up blessing instead of cursing..He went home without the money and Balak went his way..What was the purpose for Jude to give this as an example...

My perception is shaky but since I tend to speak about things I don't understand...a try..might be..a reward is offered by our animal instincts..pleasure......But when we seek that reward as a christian...the Spirit of God should control our temptations and we end up stronger in the faith through denial...These ungodly people in Jude were calling the body of Christ into rebellion against God by the pleasures extended to them...but Jude says don't rebell against a Supernatural being..They are celestial beings..don't slander them..Don't mess with Satan ...Don't mess with God...

I'm still too weak on this to understand why Jude would bother to put these difficult passages in his book..I'm simple minded...but surely those that heard Jude's writings must have been simple minded also..Why didn't he just make it simple to understand...

God bless,peck

[DCR]

I'm sorry I'm still stalled on Balaam. As I think through the account of Balaam & Balak I keep coming up with questions on two points:

• Why 7 alters of sacrifice? (Num 23: 1 & 23: 29)

I'm not aware of God requiring the use of multiple alters for sacrifice. However I think that it was customary in worship of pagan beliefs?

I'm not sure about this, marc.  You may have a point.  I would have to research it further to give you an answer.  When reading the account, I didn't really pay any attention to the fact that there were multiple altars of sacrifice.  Is the number of altars Balaam set up significant?  Could be, but I am unsure.  Certainly, offering sacrifices of bulls and rams was nothing foreign to the Law of Moses, with respect to the sin/atonement offerings and animal sacrifices.  But, why seven altars here?  To be honest, I didn't even notice that... it could be seven altars to seven different gods, perhaps?  In that case, to Balaam, the LORD God was one god among many.  That would clearly be a problem.  But, that's just speculation on my part.

Numbers 31:16 suggests that "through the counsel of Balaam" Israel trespassed against the LORD "in the matter of Peor."  I am not clear what that is in reference to or if the incident alluded to there is even recorded in Scripture.  But, it appears that Balaam had some relationship with and gave advice to Israel, possibly after the events in Numbers 22-24.  It could be a reference to what happened in Numbers 25:

Numbers 25
¹While Israel remained at Shittim, the people began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab.  ²For they invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods.  ³So Israel joined themselves to Baal of Peor, and the LORD was angry against Israel.

Balaam isn't specifically mentioned here.  But, it was immediately following the events in Numbers 24 at Peor, where this occurred.  So, might we conclude that it was Balaam's influence that Israel played harlot with the daughters of Moab and worshiped their gods?  Very possibly.  We see references to "Baal of Peor" or "Baal-Peor" in Scripture in association with pagan worship.  In Numbers 23:28, we read that Balak had taken Balaam "on top of Peor" to build the seven altars (actually, the seven altars was a request of Balak, according to Numbers 23:29).  That really points to this being Pagan or Baal worship, especially if Peor was a hill, mountain, or "high place" (where worship of Baal was frequently done).

Your questions about the sacrifice also remind me of the account of Nadab and Abihu (who, being sons of Aaron, were given priestly duties).  Leviticus 10:1-2 tells us that they were struck down for offering "strange fire" before the LORD.  I'm not entirely sure what that was.  But, one thing about it was that God took the sacrifices offered to Him very seriously.  So, your point may be right about Balaam and the seven altars in that sense as well.  I'm just not sure.

• Verse 24: 1 "... he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments,..."

Balaam was employing the use of enchantments. Could this also be sorcery? Some translations use the word sorcery. If this is correct then Balaam is working outside the will of God.

Certainly.  I think we can assume that Balaam was apparently known for being able to do certain "supernatural" things, which would be why Balak sought him to curse Israel.  Balaam isn't necessarily described as a worshiper of God before this, and he certainly wasn't of Israel.  I think it is safe to assume that in this time, Canaanite and other Pagan religions were prevalent in the area.  So, I would assume, for these reasons, that Balaam was into things that God did not approve of.  Numbers 22:7 refers to the "fees for divination."  Balaam is also later referred to as a "diviner" (Joshua 13:22).

If either one or both of these explanations are accurate Balaam was adding to the word of God with ritual and/or mystery by blending superstition with the pure word of God.

That's quite possible.

Is this happening today with anyone or any churches you know of?

Could be.  Some people who follow Christ may also have certain other beliefs and/or superstitions that don't necessarily come from God.  How destructive that is may depend on what it is.

[DCR]

Moving on...

Jude 1
¹²These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; ¹³wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

Here is some interesting imagery describing the false teachers that were infiltrating the church in Jude's day.  "Hidden reefs in your love feasts" (NASB)... other versions have it, "blemishes on your love feasts."

Regarding "love feasts" (which may also be referred to as "agape feasts/meals"), Clarke's Commentary says this:

The feasts of charity, the agapai or love feasts, of which the apostle speaks, were in use in the primitive Church till the middle of the fourth century, when, by the council of Laodicea, they were prohibited to be held in the Churches; and, having been abused, fell into disuse. In later days they have been revived, in all the purity and simplicity of the primitive institution, among the Moravians or Unitas Fratrum, and the people called Methodists.

Among the ancients, the richer members of the Church made an occasional general feast, at which all the members attended, and the poor and the rich ate together. The fatherless, the widows, and the strangers were invited to these feasts, and their eating together was a proof of their love to each other; whence such entertainments were called love feasts. The love feasts were at first celebrated before the Lord's Supper; in process of time they appear to have been celebrated after it. But they were never considered as the Lord's Supper, nor any substitute for it.

The simplest explanation is that these would be what we might call "fellowship meals," only with a somewhat greater spiritual significance.  Could this be a reference to Communion or the Lord's Supper?  Hard to say, but according to the above commentary and the apparent historical record, there was a distinction.  The apostle Paul spoke about the importance and signficance of the church meeting and eating together, in the context of the Lord's Supper as well as possibly even common meals (1 Corinthians 10-11).  We see examples of the early church having meals together very early on (Acts 2:46).  It is thought that the Lord's Supper may have been shared at the end of or following a common "fellowship" meal.  Perhaps, some others who have done further research in this area may wish to comment.

All this should give us pause though... that men like Jude describes may be among us and in fellowship with us like "hidden reefs."

[spurly]

I have missed out on much of the discussion here but I am enjoying catching up.  Currently I am only through reading and pondering the thoughts you all have posted through page 2, which I read this evening.  Hopefully I will catch up soon, but by the time I do you all might be into another book.

[peck]

Welcome aboard Spurly..I quess we can speculate the comparison today with the events that Jude was describing...especially now that recreational outreach has entered the mission field..Who knows the background of those who participate in this mission work..those who indulge in drugs,sex....criminals...maybe

But it seems that strangers would not be false teachers...somehow,Jude's characters had infiltrated the body and were a blemish to the body of Christ...Corporate worship and it's rules today would not be at issue in Jude's letter...

Jude was thinking of those who were changing the grace of God into a license for immorality..verse4...these are the false teachers..not those who have received grace and use IM..don't understand perfectly why they were baptized...who clapped hands..had more than 1 song leader and etc..

In my opinion false teachers in Jude were christians with a heart to do evil and the willingness to slander God by acting like satan while claiming innocence through grace...verse 16 would describe how we might be false teachers in the church today(but I hold that verse until DCR opens it)...

And I may be entirely wrong..Just what's come into my heart by reading Jude...These threads vanish so quickly,I'm thankful that this thread is staying alive..an ancient man..brother to the one who created him...writing ancient messages that go to the heart and soul of man..even to the Spirits that are behind good and evil..would make a good movie..

God bless,Peck

[Salt & Light]

The NASB has a good translation of this verse. Looking at "hidden reefs

[DCR]

These threads vanish so quickly,I'm thankful that this thread is staying alive..

That's the beauty of Bible study threads.  When the discussion starts to wane, just move on to the next verse.

[DCR]

Marc,

I agree.  "Hidden reefs" is a good visual concept.  It describes a hazard that may be right under you yet go unnoticed.

[DCR]

Jude 1
¹⁴It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, ¹⁵to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Here is the reference to Enoch, which was discussed earlier in the thread.  There appear to be two men named Enoch in Scripture.  The first was the son of Cain (Genesis 4:17).  In that reference, it is said that Cain actually built a city named Enoch, which was named for his son.  The second Enoch was the father of Methuselah, grandfather of Lamech, and great grandfather of Noah (just as a point of reference).

Genesis 5
²¹When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah.  ²²And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters.  ²³Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years.  ²⁴Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away. (NIV)

This point that Enoch "walked with God" and then "was no more, because God took him away" is interesting and has been the source of speculation.  The writer of the book of Hebrews refers to this same Enoch:

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. (NASB)

This Enoch is one of the few people in the Bible who may not have experienced a natural death.  What does it mean that God took him, and where did God take him?  We may never know.  But, what we do know is that this ancestor of Noah lived by faith and thus walked with God. 

Jude's description of Enoch being the "seventh generation from Adam" seems to point to this Enoch.  This is where we have a bit of controversy with Jude's quote, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."  Jude says that Enoch prophesied this.  Does it come from what is considered to be the "apocryphal" Book of Enoch?  It appears to be, unless the Book of Enoch quotes from some other source.  As discussed earlier, there are groups in history (such as the Ethiopian Orthodox Church) who have considered the Book of Enoch to be canon.  But, I'm certainly not going to attempt to solve that problem nor make a case for it one way or the other here.  However, it may be helpful to refer back to the context in that particular ancient writing.

The below quote is chapter 1 from the Book of Enoch (taken from http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_1.HTM):

BOOK OF ENOCH

From-The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament
H.R. Charles Oxford: The Clarendon Press


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Section I. Chapters I-XXXVI
INTRODUCTION

[Chapter 1]

1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:

The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling,
4 And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai,
[And appear from His camp]
And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens.

5 And all shall be smitten with fear
And the Watchers shall quake,
And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth.

6 And the high mountains shall be shaken,
And the high hills shall be made low,
And shall melt like wax before the flame

7 And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder,
And all that is upon the earth shall perish,
And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).

8 But with the righteous He will make peace.
And will protect the elect,
And mercy shall be upon them.
And they shall all belong to God,
And they shall be prospered,
And they shall all be blessed.
And He will help them all,
And light shall appear unto them,
And He will make peace with them'.

9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

This appears to paint a picture of the second coming and judgment of Christ.  Notice the role that the "holy ones" (angels?) have in executing judgment in this prophecy.  That fits in with some of the previous things we have looked at in this study.

[Salt & Light]

The long awaited much anticipated fourteenth & fifteenth verse!

Enoch prophesied regarding the false teachers of the last days, and that is  extraordinary!

God apparently did not want the Book of Enoch in the canon of Scripture or it would be there, we can be sure of that. However here is one prophecy that God wanted put into His Holy Word. It is a prophecy concerning the coming of Christ with His saints, His second coming.

As DCR pointed out Enoch was translated, that is, he was removed from the earth without dying; "...because God took him away" (Gen 5: 24 NIV). I believe that today the term we would use for this phenomenon would be "rapture

[peck]

Thank you DCR for the effort that you have put into this exciting book..and to you Marc for your wisdom...It gives me goosebumps just using my imagination to pull out of Jude's mind what he is talking about...

I seem to be a cloud without water concerning this verse(but that's never stopped me from commenting before,so)..there seems to have been several sects competing with Jesus ..Gnostics being only one..a speculation could be that Jude was claiming that the christian faith is an old established faith and that only faith in him is the right faith..and faith in him declares that ungodly people will be judged by a Celestial being who will return someday...Whereas,the sect they are following is an earthly one that is false...and will damn their souls...or some may be thinking that the body and it's evils will be gone at death and the spirit will survive by grace...no matter what the body did...

Jude seems to be having a heart to heart talk..realizing that these people are being exposed to more than one religious leaders and have not been exposed to the one way of Jesus all that long...They are false teachers with evil intentions but maybe(quessing)...they may not realize that religion goes beyond the grave and are doing whatever their hearts desire for pleasure on earth...Jude may be saying that Jesus is not new...the evidence for his claim to be God goes way back in time and he is indeed the faith they should contend for...a faith that will demand a holy life all the way to the grave...

Just my 2 cents worth..Enjoying the wisdom being demonstrated in this thread... 

God bless,Peck

[Salt & Light]

Jude 15
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

This appears to paint a picture of the second coming and judgment of Christ.

Yes, and the discussion goes eerily silent. This could indicate that we know all about it or...?

[DCR]

Interesting thoughts, S&L.  With the holidays and everything, I haven't had as much time on here for a couple of days.  Hopefully, more to come soon.

[DCR]

Here is where the controversy begins but here goes anyway: 
Sometime in the future, the church, meaning true believers, is to be removed from the earth without dying. The removal of believers from earth prior to their physical death is now referred to as the “rapture”. That is to be caught up together with living believers to meet the Lord in the air. This teaching is not in the Old Testament at all, but Enoch is a “type” or a representative of the believers who will take part in the rapture. Enoch was removed before the judgment of the flood came upon the earth. The believers who compose the true church will be removed they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, before the judgments of the Great Tribulation.

Very interesting possibilities there.  But, the above interpretation depends a bit on what particular brand of eschatology one happens to subscribe to... one's interpretation of the rapture, tribulation, the nature of the millennial reign and other things we read about in Revelation among other prophecies about the future, regarding what will take place leading up to and when Christ returns.  Does Enoch relate to the Great Flood in the same way that the "raptured believers" relate to the coming tribulation (as a type, if that is your position)?  That's an interesting connection you make there, and I see your point.  But, given that I don't see Scripture making that connection, then I'll probably just leave it at that.  Still, it does cause one to

[Salt & Light]

Does Enoch relate to the Great Flood in the same way that the "raptured believers" relate to the coming tribulation (as a type, if that is your position)?  That's an interesting connection you make there, and I see your point.  But, given that I don't see Scripture making that connection, then I'll probably just leave it at that.  Still, it does cause one to

*Rapture – No rapture, that isn't the primary message and certainly isn't a salvation issue. The focus of these verses is of judgment, Verse 15 begins; "To execute judgment upon all,

[Lee Freeman]

Gnostics were non-materialists; they believed that the physical, material universe was a cosmic mistake, created by the evil Jewish usurper-god YHWH, who caused the souls of men to be trapped in physical bodies. Jesus, in most Gnostic theology, came to show certain enlightened people how to use gnosis to free their souls from their corrupt physical bodies. In Gnostic theology, only spirit mattered, therefore Jesus (a semi-divine spirit guide) didn't have a physical incarnation; his crucifixion was all an illusion (see II John). Since matter and flesh were inherently evil, there was no belief in a bodily resurrection in Gnosticism-the whole point was to be eternally free from your body and the physical universe. I'm not sure there was a judgment or a hell in Gnosticism.

Pax.

[Salt & Light]

Lee,

It is important that you call attention to the fact that Gnostic's acknowledge Jesus in their beliefs. This can be and is very confusing to the unknowing. The key, as you pointed out, is that Gnostics consider Jesus "a semi-divine spirit guide

[DCR]

Moving on in the text...

Jude 1
¹⁶These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.  ¹⁷But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, ¹⁸that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."  ¹⁹These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

I don't have much to add here.  Jude describes these people, these "hidden reefs in their love feasts," as "grumblers" and "flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage."  I suspect most can relate to this.  Have you had experiences with individuals who behaved in this manner?  Sadly, if we look into ourselves, we have probably all been guilty of these things at one time or another.  He says in verse 19 that divisions are actually caused by these kinds of people.  Interesting commentary.

In verse 18, Jude appears to quote what the apostles were saying with, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."  Notice that we have a statement very similiar to this in 2 Peter 3:3.  Jude could have been quoting Peter there.  But, as we have already pointed out, there appears to be a strong connection between Jude and 2 Peter.

[peck]

 I wonder about verse 19...Is this verse connected to verse 3 and 4..Is the context of false teachers in Jude,is that the body of Christ was being infiltrated by godless people who counted grace as a license for immorality....notice verse 4(denying Jesus Christ our only sovereign and Lord).....thereby we are to contend for the faith(Jesus)...and those who live a life of ungodliness are the ones who divide you(verse19)

Also verse 19 gives us a condition of their heart..."who follow mere natural instincts and....do not...have the Spirit"

It is my conclusion...maybe wrong..that using verse 3 as a scripture reference to judge other denominations or corporate worship differences is out of place..since the context of false teachers in Jude are immoral people...not about doctrine or how a worship service is supposed to be...but that those who have not put on the spiritual nature are denying Christ...Living by natural instincts while claiming grace....

God bless,Peck   

[peck]

Just curious..I've noticed that this little book has drawn over 1800 hits..yet very few give a perception of what they get from Jude..It would be nice to read more thoughts on this book..I would personally like to glean more wisdom from this book...It has deep thoughts that is often overlooked as we glance through it ...

God bless,Peck

[Salt & Light]

Just curious..I've noticed that this little book has drawn over 1800 hits..yet very few give a perception of what they get from Jude..It would be nice to read more thoughts on this book..

peck,

One reason is because there's not enough controversy to stimulate participation. This happens when participants focus on scripture first and then seek understanding rather than trying to apply personal understanding to the scripture.

Like you, I wish more people would share what they are getting out of these verses also.

God Bless,
Marc

[Salt & Light]

v17: Jude reminds believers that the apostles warned that these apostates would come. In other words, he is saying that this ought not to disturb us. The apostasy is something God has permitted, and He has permitted it for a purpose.

In verse 19 Jude defines the apostates: "These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

[peck]

More speculation by me..

Jude seems to be concerned about the church in general not just one body...Jesus had competition among religious thinking people and some were going to the love feasts of believers...These intruders were putting false gods or false information into the body of Christ..by flatery and other means..

Jude seemed to take the approach of giving supernatural evidence as evidence that the faith of Jesus was superior over the natural instincts of the false teachers(who had no evidence except the appeal of the sinful nature)..and now is making it plain that repentance and responsibility is involved in the faith of the saints.....

The ones intruding in the love feasts were of the opinion that....We have no sin that we need to repent of...Come join us and lets have pleasure..But Jude warns the believers to contend for the true faith of a Jesus who transfers his obedience over to them through faith..which leads them to repentance and remission of sins through his name...Luke24:47..This was Jesus's last words before his ascention.. 

Just a thought

God bless,Peck

[DCR]

Good points, gents.

I've been busier than normal this week, so I haven't had much time online here.  I'll try to be back soon with hopefully more comments.  Then, we'll finish off the epistle.  It's been a great study.

[Jimbob]

Yep, it has.

[DCR]

And, to take it to the end...

²⁰But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, ²¹keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

²²And have mercy on some, who are doubting; ²³save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

²⁴Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, ²⁵to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

After all the topics he addressed in this epistle, some being ominous and cause for concern, Jude ends on a positive, encouraging note.  He encourages his readers to focus on the spiritual well-being of both themselves and their brethren.  Jude tells his readers to "keep yourselves in the love of God" (verse 21).  That appears to be the thrust of verses 20 and 21.  As part of that, he tells his readers that they should...

1) Build yourselves up on your most holy faith
2) Pray in the Holy Spirit
3) Wait anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life

And, we are told to have mercy on some who are doubting and to save others, "snatching them out of the fire."

He finishes the letter with a word of doxology, which reminds us that God is able to keep us from stumbling.  If we keep our eyes fixed on Him and keep ourselves in His love (verse 21), then He will protect us and in the end make us "stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy."

[peck]

 Maybe Jude has given us a blessing of freedom..Free from false teachers that are tempting us toward our sinful nature...not doubting that Jesus is a supernatural being and the author of a new covenant of grace..not grace that gives us a license to sin but a grace that demands holy living...

Maybe Jude is a grace centered man who encourages us toward freedom of our human faith to a higher spiritual nature...It seems that the HS is important in our development of that spiritual nature..

God bless,Peck

[DCR]

This study thread was completed during a very busy period on the board.  So, it got buried very quickly.

I just thought I would bump this back up one more time, in case anyone who might have missed it was interested in seeing the conclusion of it.

Any additional comments on any part of the study are welcome, of course.

[marc]

So, are you ever going to go on to chapter 2?

[DCR]

Just as soon as someone finds the lost scrolls in a cave somewhere, we'll call a Canonical Council and get that taken care of for you.

[spurly]

Have mercy on some who are doubting (v. 22), is also rendered "convince those who are of two minds" in some translations.  Possible Jude is saying that there are some in the church who are wavering between the truth that was once for all delivered to the saints and the false teachers.  With people like that we are to sit down and help them based on our most holy faith in which we have been built up (v. 20).  They don't need someone to judge them, they need someone to show them the truth.

Others are dangerously close to following the false teachers, and they require more drastic action.  They will soon be consumed by the fire if someone does not intervene to snatch them from the fire.  But as we do that, we need to do it with a holy fear lest we too end up on the path they are traveling.

[spurly]

My favorite part of Jude is the doxology.  I personally believe we could have a thread extending hundreds of pages on Jude's doxology alone and we could never exhaust the riches that are found therein.

The first question is who is the Him in verse 24?  Is it God the Father or God the Son?  My thinking is that Jude is referring to God the Son.  He is the one who is able to keep us from falling through his atoning work on the cross on our behalf.  However, God the Father was also actively involved in our redemption through his Son.

And he makes us to stand in his glorious presence "blameless and with great joy".  First of all, if we were not blameless, his glorious presence would completely consume us and we would be unable to stand before him.  Even if his mercy allowed us to stand in his presence a little while in a state of sin and blame, we would not stand before him with great joy, but instead would stand before him with an intense fear.  But because of Christ and his finished work on the cross, we are able to stand before his glorious presence with joy instead of fear.  What an incredible gift of love and grace!

In verse 25 God is referred to as Savior (this happens 7 other times in the NT).  God the Father and God the Son were working together for our salvation.  God saved us, through Jesus Christ.  Thus he deserves the glory, dominion and authority.

The false teachers in Jude were trying to take some of the glory, dominion and authority for themselves.  Jude would have none of it.  All glory goes to God the Father and God the Son.  That is the way it has always been and that is the way it always will be.

Your thoughts on the doxology?

[peck]

Well said Spurly..No need for me to comment on the doxology because you have made an excellent perception..

But one point I like to make is that the context of a false teacher in Jude is not those who differ in doctrine since no Baptists or CoC were around then..humor.....But rather at the time of Jude,Jesus was not the only religious leader and some who were into immorality associated with christians who had been saved by grace...Their teaching was that grace gave them a license to engage in immoraliy...verse4..but notice the bible says they denied Jesus Christ..

This would mean that it was not about one believer teaching error to another believer...but rather people who were of a different faith(perhaps some of the christians were participating in sin with these teachers before their conversion and folowed them to their meetings)..

My conclusion(which is only what the bible means to me)is that contending for "the faith" was to continue to believe in a God of repentance and live holy lives and not get caught up in their sinful nature again...

Peter made the comment that if they did,they would be worse off than before...2Pet2

God bless,Peck

[spurly]

I was just rereading this thread and noticing that Peck chimed in quite a bit.  His insight is indeed missed.