Ted kennedy fought for what he believed in He fought for abortions.

[ex cathedra]

just a question why is Ted Kennedy who believed in and supports and defends abortions for those that want them .
getting a HIGH PROFILE ROMAN CATHOLIC church funeral ?



why was he not excommunicated?

[desertknight]

The short answer is because you, I, nor anyone outside of he and his maker is privy to the state of Sen. Kennedy's soul at the moment of his death.  He knew his time was short.  He received a final confession and the last rites of the Church before he passed.  We should all be so lucky.  My guess is that the Senator had much of the past weighing on him before departing, but I honestly have no idea what he may have felt or confessed at the moment of his death...neither do you.  I do know that Holy Scripture warns us over and over to not judge our brothers.  I also know that it is poor form to speak ill of a man who has just met his final judgment.  Don't you non-Catholics read the Bible?  Do you really think you are deserving of salvation more than Edward Moore Kennedy?  You are not!  You deserve the same fires of eternal Hell that he does, or I do.   If Sen. Kennedy is in Heaven now, it is not because of, or in spite of, his political beliefs.  It is because he sought the grace of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, who's blood at Cavalry's cross redeems us all.  Mr. Kennedy will receive a Catholic funeral just as all the other sinners who sat with him in the pews will one day, for everyone we bury is a sinner deserving of damnation.  We will remember his better nature and pray for the repose of his soul. 

James 4:11-12  "Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?"

Requiescat in Pace,  Mr. Kennedy  

[ex cathedra]

The short answer is because you, I, nor anyone outside of he and his maker is privy to the state of Sen. Kennedy's soul at the moment of his death. He knew his time was short. He received a final confession and the last rites of the Church before he passed. We should all be so lucky.  My guess is that the Senator had much of the past weighing on him before departing, but I honestly have no idea what he may have felt or confessed at the moment of his death...neither do you.  I do know that Holy Scripture warns us over and over to not judge our brothers.  I also know that it is poor form to speak ill of a man who has just met his final judgment.  Don't you non-Catholics read the Bible?  Do you really think you are deserving of salvation more than Edward Moore Kennedy?  You are not!  You deserve the same fires of eternal Hell that he does, or I do.   If Sen. Kennedy is in Heaven now, it is not because of, or in spite of, his political beliefs.  It is because he sought the grace of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, who's blood at Cavalry's cross redeems us all.  Mr. Kennedy will receive a Catholic funeral just as all the other sinners who sat with him in the pews will one day, for everyone we bury is a sinner deserving of damnation.  We will remember his better nature and pray for the repose of his soul.  

James 4:11-12  "Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?"

Requiescat in Pace,  Mr. Kennedy  

No that's not a very good answer. I will tell you why .

for years he promoted and defended both the homosexual agendas and the abortion agendas.

very publicly and very enthusiastically .

With out any public made consequences from the Roman church .
He took communion!!!! and was in full fellowship with the roman catholic church  all  while publicly doing this.

You could say since he was such a public figure he truly showed the world the hypocrisy of the roman catholic's who were to pastor him . since he did his sin in  public
with no sign of repentance . The loving thing the Roman Catholic Church should have done was excommunicate him very publicly until he very publicly indicated through his actions and speech he was repentant.

But since when does the Roman catholic church  show love for any one's soul? his or the other roman catholics that never witnessed any repentance .

I bet because of his pastors not bringing  on him church discipline as the bible tells them to do.   A  amount of roman catholics think this


.The church  looked the other way after all the Kennedy family pays   big bucks supporting roman catholic organizations.
I wonder if all this God stuff is a lie?

NEXT POINT IS.
He may have repented on his death not able to publically do it as he should have for years .

Either way he should not be given a high profile Christian funeral .
but of course he will get it,  the kennedys pay big bucks to roman catholic org.
The roman catholics are as liberal as their elca sister You should be in communion together your two peas in the same pod of liberalism . You love the money more than souls or scripture ,Gods word.



1 Corinthians 5
Expel the Immoral Brother!
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

[desertknight]

ex cathedra, you are making many charges that are not credible, or possibly you simply do not understand Catholic dogma, or I am not understanding you.  First, although there is some debate as to what one must do in order for Holy Communion to be denied to someone, it is a very serious matter.  You cannot deny someone Holy Communion simply because you don't like their politics.  You cannot deny someone Holy Communion because they are a sinner.  If that were the case, no one, and I mean no one on earth, would ever qualify to receive it.  The Church cannot just say, "Senator so and so supports gay rights, so no communion for him."  That may be the way it is done in your church, but not mine.  A person has to be generally known to be the actual sinner, to be directly culpable, to have it even contemplated, in other words, saying, I support Roe v. Wade but I am personally against abortion, (Sen. Kennedy's position), is not the same thing as actually having performed an abortion, which someone can certainly be excommunicated for.    

Let me ask you something, if Sen. Kennedy should have been excommunicated as you state, because of his voting record on such issues as gay rights and abortion, then shouldn't the people who know this and vote to send him to the Senate be also?  I mean, how can you argue your point in one case, but deny it in the other?  If so, then I am assuming that the branch of Christianity that you belong to, the actual denominational Christianity that your church belongs to, excommunicates all known Democrats who vote, from their pews.  I mean it either has to be that, or you are being an anti-Catholic bigot and hypocrite by saying that,  "People who support abortion should be excommunicated....except in my denomination, just those evil Catholics", right?  I assume that you are actively campaigning to have all known Democrat voters of President Obama immediately excommunicated from your church, right?  Please tell us which denomination you belong to that prohibits all those who vote for the national Democrat Party from belonging.  I am curious as to which it is.

We Catholics are as liberal as the ELCA?  OMGosh..LoL.  Are you high?   We staunchly and publicly oppose abortion, gay marriage, all sex outside of wedlock, pornography, divorce, etc., etc.  Wow, your hatred for your brother Christians has either seriously effected your common sense, or I will assume you are just joking.

As to you other point, I will pray for you brother for I know Scripture well enough to know how wrong you are to judge your brothers.  God will meet you at death with all the mercy, forgiveness and charity, that you show people like the late Sen. Kennedy.

For the record, I am a staunch Republican and ardently pro-life in my politics.  If I were from Massachusetts I would have voted against the Senator every election, but my Church is not a political club and my faith is above Party politics.  I wish the late Senator had seen the error of his ways much sooner, but I feel for his families loss, the countries, and pray for the repose of his soul.  May he rest in peace.

Matt. 7:1-5  "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

[ex cathedra]

ex cathedra, you are making many charges that are not credible, or possibly you simply do not understand Catholic dogma, or I am not understanding you.  First, although there is some debate as to what one must do in order for Holy Communion to be denied to someone, it is a very serious matter.  You cannot deny someone Holy Communion simply because you don't like their politics.  You cannot deny someone Holy Communion because they are a sinner.  If that were the case, no one, and I mean no one on earth, would ever qualify to receive it.  The Church cannot just say, "Senator so and so supports gay rights, so no communion for him."  That may be the way it is done in your church, but not mine.  A person has to be generally known to be the actual sinner, to be directly culpable, to have it even contemplated, in other words, saying, I support Roe v. Wade but I am personally against abortion, (Sen. Kennedy's position), is not the same thing as actually having performed an abortion, which someone can certainly be excommunicated for.    

Let me ask you something, if Sen. Kennedy should have been excommunicated as you state, because of his voting record on such issues as gay rights and abortion, then shouldn't the people who know this and vote to send him to the Senate be also?  I mean, how can you argue your point in one case, but deny it in the other?  If so, then I am assuming that the branch of Christianity that you belong to, the actual denominational Christianity that your church belongs to, excommunicates all known Democrats who vote, from their pews.  I mean it either has to be that, or you are being an anti-Catholic bigot and hypocrite by saying that,  "People who support abortion should be excommunicated....except in my denomination, just those evil Catholics", right?  I assume that you are actively campaigning to have all known Democrat voters of President Obama immediately excommunicated from your church, right?  Please tell us which denomination you belong to that prohibits all those who vote for the national Democrat Party from belonging.  I am curious as to which it is.

We Catholics are as liberal as the ELCA?  OMGosh..LoL.  Are you high?   We staunchly and publicly oppose abortion, gay marriage, all sex outside of wedlock, pornography, divorce, etc., etc.  Wow, your hatred for your brother Christians has either seriously effected your common sense, or I will assume you are just joking.

As to you other point, I will pray for you brother for I know Scripture well enough to know how wrong you are to judge your brothers.  God will meet you at death with all the mercy, forgiveness and charity, that you show people like the late Sen. Kennedy.

For the record, I am a staunch Republican and ardently profile in my politics. If I were from Massachusetts I would have voted against the Senator every election, but my Church is not a political club and my faith is above Party politics.  I wish the late Senator had seen the error of his ways much sooner, but I feel for his families loss, the countries, and pray for the repose of his soul. May he rest in peace.

Matt. 7:1-5  "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

Re read the scriptural grounds for x communication only a liberal or person WHO refuses to see that God has already Judged
those sins of defending supporting and actively giving aid to sinful agendas is wrong and need to be repented; would incorrectly use .Mathew 7:15
and so by doing, not even understand they are passing its judgement on their own head not mine . Unless of Course
you truly believes that you to, are saved by Christ alone.

his perfect life lead in your sinful stead and his innocent death for full and free forgiveness of your sin's  .

than there could be no condemnation from JESUS WORDS IN Mathew 7:15 --------THEY COULD NOT APPLY TO YOU.


do YOU UNDERSTAND WHY REPENTANCE IS IMPORTANT ?
ITS NOT JUST FEELING SO BADLY ABOUT SIN SO THAT ONE NEVER WANTS TO DO IT AGAIN .ITS ALSO TRUSTING IN Jesus full and free forgiveness he won on that cross for us sinner's.
X communication shows the sinner the seriousness of sin YES --BUT SO they WILL repent in the joy of Christs FREE AND FULL forgiveness won.
that's the true TEACHING of scripture.

if ONE NEVER ADMITS THEY SINNED THEY WILL NEVER ENJOY THE SECONG AND MUCH BETTER PART OF REPENTANCE WHICH IS FORGIVNESS and Heaven  WON FOR THEM BY CHRIST..

God  DOES NOT SAVE IMAGENARY SINNERS . ONE MUST BEAR REAL AND TRUE SINS TO BE SAVED.
SO LET YOUR SINS BE STRONG but  LET YOUR TRUST IN JESUS HIS FULL AND FREE SALVATION his FORGIVNESS for your sins ,BE EVEN STRONGER  

Gods blessings

[kensington]

just a question why is Ted Kennedy who believed in and supports and defends abortions for those that want them .
getting a HIGH PROFILE ROMAN CATHOLIC church funeral ?



why was he not excommunicated?

He wrote a letter to the Pope...  And probably left a large amount of money to the church.

[kensington]

ex cathedra, you are making many charges that are not credible, or possibly you simply do not understand Catholic dogma, or I am not understanding you.  First, although there is some debate as to what one must do in order for Holy Communion to be denied to someone, it is a very serious matter.  You cannot deny someone Holy Communion simply because you don't like their politics.  You cannot deny someone Holy Communion because they are a sinner.  If that were the case, no one, and I mean no one on earth, would ever qualify to receive it.  The Church cannot just say, "Senator so and so supports gay rights, so no communion for him."  That may be the way it is done in your church, but not mine.  A person has to be generally known to be the actual sinner, to be directly culpable, to have it even contemplated, in other words, saying, I support Roe v. Wade but I am personally against abortion, (Sen. Kennedy's position), is not the same thing as actually having performed an abortion, which someone can certainly be excommunicated for.   

Let me ask you something, if Sen. Kennedy should have been excommunicated as you state, because of his voting record on such issues as gay rights and abortion, then shouldn't the people who know this and vote to send him to the Senate be also?  I mean, how can you argue your point in one case, but deny it in the other?  If so, then I am assuming that the branch of Christianity that you belong to, the actual denominational Christianity that your church belongs to, excommunicates all known Democrats who vote, from their pews.  I mean it either has to be that, or you are being an anti-Catholic bigot and hypocrite by saying that,  "People who support abortion should be excommunicated....except in my denomination, just those evil Catholics", right?  I assume that you are actively campaigning to have all known Democrat voters of President Obama immediately excommunicated from your church, right?  Please tell us which denomination you belong to that prohibits all those who vote for the national Democrat Party from belonging.  I am curious as to which it is.

We Catholics are as liberal as the ELCA?  OMGosh..LoL.  Are you high?   We staunchly and publicly oppose abortion, gay marriage, all sex outside of wedlock, pornography, divorce, etc., etc.  Wow, your hatred for your brother Christians has either seriously effected your common sense, or I will assume you are just joking.

As to you other point, I will pray for you brother for I know Scripture well enough to know how wrong you are to judge your brothers.  God will meet you at death with all the mercy, forgiveness and charity, that you show people like the late Sen. Kennedy.

For the record, I am a staunch Republican and ardently pro-life in my politics.  If I were from Massachusetts I would have voted against the Senator every election, but my Church is not a political club and my faith is above Party politics.  I wish the late Senator had seen the error of his ways much sooner, but I feel for his families loss, the countries, and pray for the repose of his soul.  May he rest in peace.

Matt. 7:1-5  "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

WAIT ONE MINUTE....  Are you saying...  TED KENNEDY Championed for abortion rights, and the killing of innocent babies his WHOLE Life,  and He KNEW It was wrong...  but He knew he could confess at the end and receive forgiveness through his priest and go to heaven?

That either makes him the WORST Catholic on the face of the earth... or the Biggest Hypocrite Democrat to ever be born. 

If he did not REALLY mean what he championed for....  He should not have done it.  AND if he REALLY Believed he was right then he had nothing to confess. 

WHICH IS IT?

[desertknight]

No, I'm saying that I don't know what he confessed or what he thought or what the state of his soul was at the time of his death.  And neither do you!  Are you saying that one cannot with a sincere heart, repent and ask for God's grace, even at the moment of death, and not be received by Him into the Kingdom?  If you are, you are ignorant of the most basic principals of our faith of redemption.  Even the thief on the cross is with our Father in Heaven.  As I have said before, if Edward Kennedy is in heaven, (and I have no more idea than you do about it.), it has nothing to do with his political views or in spite of them.  It has nothing to do with his personal failings in life.  It has everything to do with his seeking the saving grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ.  As Christians, our duty to the departed is to pray for the repose of their souls.  I'm saying that everything we read in scripture warns us profoundly about how we judge our brother.  I'm saying I am thoroughly disgusted by people who claim to be Christians and yet are filled with back-biting judgment and speculation as to the state of another man's soul.  Are you his judge?  Who appointed you?  You say he "wrote a letter to the Pope and gave money to get into heaven."  I'm sure you have proof, or am I to consider you the worst sort of Christian who is a liar and hypocrite just as you consider Mr. Kennedy the worst sort of one?  The man is dead.  Let him rest in peace.  Didn't anyone ever teach you people common Christian decency and manners?

Luke 6:37-6:41-42  "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

[janine]

There have been one or two much lower-profile Congressmen who have been denied Communion by their local priests and/or regional bishops, because of their very public efforts to promote legislation for things that are supposed to be repugnant to Catholics -- like abortion-on-demand.

I do not recall that happening to bigshots like Kennedy.

Nothing like that is going to come down from the Vatican.  The Pope had bigger fish to fry.  He's got government people who are Catholic, some of them in at least nominally Catholic countries, doing all sorts of evil all the time, all over the world.  Starting right there wil Italy.  If he took time to personally see that they were all excommunicated he'd have no time to eat or take a bath or anything for 20 years.  Excommunication is a long involved process.

[desertknight]

I do not recall that happening to bigshots like Kennedy.

Au contraire.  There is not much more high profile a "bigshot" then the junior Senator from Massachusetts, John Kerry.  While he was the Presidential nominee of the Democrat Party he was informed he would be denied Holy Eucharist while he was campaigning in Missouri.  It happens all the time.  It has nothing to do with whether you are a "big shot".  It has everything to do with doctrine and cannon law.  It also has everything to do with the Church being run, on a day to day basis, by her Bishops, who are the only ones who can decide these things until there is consensus or intervention by our chief Bishop, the Pope.   Here is the debate within the Church and the problem.  According to cannon law you cannot just willy-nilly deny the sacraments to someone who is not formally excommunicated and in the past, only a Catholic who is open to the discipline of excommunication and is personally culpable of a sin that they, through disobedience, are repeating, has that been done.  The reason why this is a hot topic is that if the grounds for excommunication/denial of the Eucharist, is something less than direct responsibility for an actual sinful act, then why are those who vote for Senator Kennedy, or President Obama or pretty much any national Democrat, also, not subject to the same actions by the Church?  If John Kerry is to be denied communion, then how is Mr. Smith in Kansas who voted for him, not as equally culpable?  John Kerry, AFAIK, has never personally been responsible for committing an abortion.  Now that does not excuse his defying Church teaching and discipline by voting as a Senator to support the vile practice, but if it rises to the level of excommunication, than it logically does for every single Catholic who has voted for him.  As I posed to another poster here, can anyone point out to me any denomination of Christians that will excommunicate you or deny you communion based on how you voted in the last election?  If not, then you are singling out just my Church for the ridicule that all of us either deserve or not.  No denomination denies someone Holy Communion based on the fact that they are a sinner, unless they are guilty of a grave sin as they are receiving it that I know of.  No one that I know, denies a church funeral to someone based on that either.  If they did, they would have to deny it to all as we are all sinners.  The Church would be wrong to say, give Mr. Smith in Kansas a Catholic funeral in my example, but deny it to Senator Kennedy, cause you know, he's a Kennedy and famous so we have to act.  It's a kind of reverse discrimination.  

BTW, as I have pointed out before on this thread, I am a staunch Republican and pro-life.  I would have never voted for Senator Kennedy specifically due to his support for legal abortion, but I am suspect of calls for his excommunication or denial of the Sacraments when it would not be similarly done for all those who voted for him in the past.  

I can just imagine the howls from the exact same anti-Catholic crowd, some who have posted here, if the Church did exactly what they are saying to do...

"Evil Pope and wh*re of Babylon Church is trying to undermine and influence American government through threats of excommunication of it's members!"

I learned a long time ago when I became a Catholic, that with some people, we can never win, no matter what we do....

[zoonance]

It doesn't matter how we wear the name of Jesus all our life as long as we slip Him a quicky when the time comes.

[desertknight]

It doesn't matter how we wear the name of Jesus all our life as long as we slip Him a quicky when the time comes.

What in the world do you even mean by that vulgar statement?

A Catholic funeral is not some sort of "good conduct medal." All sorts of scoundrels and saints have been given Catholic funerals. At the funeral liturgy, we pray for the dead person, we pray for those who mourn, and we affirm our faith in the Resurrection of Jesus and the future resurrection of the body.

The one, essential virtue necessary in making a decision about whether to bury the dead with the Church's blessing, is charity. We do not judge the dead. The state of a person's soul, in the Communion line or in the coffin, is truly known by God alone, who doesn't need our help to make his judgment.

In very rare cases, and only for reasons specified in Canon Law, the diocesan bishop may deny a Catholic funeral to someone. When that decision is made, it is made not really because of the deeds of the deceased, but because of the moral weakness of the public, who in their lack of appreciation of the virtue of charity, may be scandalized because of the fact of the Catholic funeral.

[ex cathedra]

desertknight


let me put it this way . If it was you who most openly and publicly promoted and defended and cared not a hoot about confusing some one new to the faith
with your homosexual and abortion agendas.
Would your priest have excommunicated you? If you kept it up for years and never recanted your posistion?
would he have looked the other way every time "you" came to holy communion and let "you" just go on publicly defending and promoting and aiding homosexual and abortion agendas?
would he have let you have a high profile funeral even if you quietly said you were sorry right before you died.

you must think were all idiots if you say yes.

if it were me. My wels pastors would have ex communicated me and made it public in front of the whole church since i did the promting publicly. And if i said i was sorry right before I died . He sure would not have allowed me to have a high profile church funeral.
perhaps a small one And he would have let them know i had said i was sorry for the way i had behaved.

What your telling us any Roman Catholic can get away with the crap Ted Kennedy did --and enjoy full fellowship with the catholic church as well.

NO that's Not true

Only some one with ted Kennedy's status and wealth can do what he did and get away with it.

and your being dishonest to every one  by not admitting the truth.

LETS SAY THAT TED KENNEDY DID THE SAME  AND WAS A WELS LUTHERAN.

i would like to think my church body would have acted rightly not like the roman catholic church . Yet i dont know for sure Kennedy had  very powerful status and millions who would have become offended more than likly the president also.
i dont know the threats that could be used against a church body.

All i know IS YOUR CHURCH CAVED . ONLY GOD KNOWS IF MINE ALSO WOULD HAVE CAVED IN TO SUCH PRESSURE'S.

[desertknight]

i would like to think my church body would have acted rightly not like the roman catholic church .

Humm, gee that's funny ex cathedra, if that is so, then maybe you can explain this...

Rep. Ron Kind is a Democrat member of Congress who is an active member in good standing of a WELS congregation, two actually, one in his home district and one in D.C.  Here is his voting record, available to the public and well known throughout his political career.  It clearly shows his votes in favor of abortion, embryonic stem cell research, gay rights, no votes on banning minors from crossing state lines to get an abortion, no on banning gay adoptions, etc., etc.,...

He is rated 100% by NARAL, (Just like Ted Kennedy!), the largest abortion support organization in the country, and yet, now funny here, contrary to everything you have just said, he continues to receive communion at his church and has never been excommunicated.

Now you wouldn't be so blinded by your anti-Catholicism that you don't realize that your own denomination does not excommunicate or deny the Eucharist to someone for holding a political opinion or even voting on legislation that disagrees with your church's teaching, because I have just provided you with rock-solid evidence confirming it.

See that pesky beam in your own eye?  How bout' you WELS guys dig that out first before coming over to our house and slamming on us about the splinter in ours.

http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Ron_Kind.htm

Ron Kind's biography lists him as:  member of Immanuel Lutheran Church, LaCrosse, Wisconsin from 1993 to present.  Mr. Kind is a WELS member in good standing and partakes in the Holy Supper.

http://www.wfn.org/2009/01/msg00039.html

http://joshschroeder.blogspot.com/2009/08/who-is-ron-kind.html

1.  Catholic funerals are not "high profile" or "low profile".  There is only one kind of Catholic funeral.  Senator Kennedy's was large because he was such an historic figure and important Senator who had served for over 40 years in that body.  Any funeral he had was going to be "high profile", Catholic or not, his religion had nothing to do with it.

2.  My Church did not "cave".  It would have been inappropriate, and probably a violation of episcopal norms, to have not given Senator Kennedy a Catholic funeral.  Catholic funerals are not given based on whether the person was a sinner.  I suggest you read my last post to understand why.  

3.  The Catholic Church has virtually identical positions on social issues that WELS does and is known to be a staunch defender of those positions.  Inexplicably, you seem to be unaware of that.  Are you really ignorant of the tremendous effort my Church puts into fighting abortion, gay marriage, pornography, feminism, etc.?

[kensington]

Luke 6:37-6:41-42  "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

From everything I witnessed in my life of his life and I was old enough to witness his killing Mary Jo...    To now...  He was not my Christian brother.  The thing that you Catholics often miss is that JOINING the Catholic Church does not make you a Christian or saved.  You can be saved without being a Catholic... but you can't be a Christian without being saved.  And "You will know them by their fruits"...

That means...  I have not taken a spec from my brothers eye...  at all.  He wasn't my brother.   He died and is dead now, and I can't take anything out of the eye of someone who is not alive...  Their eternity is sealed.   But... REALLY... "Speck"? 

Do you suppose that the term speck was meant for someone who was picking on the Pharisee?  No... it was for the Ted Kennedy's of the world who lived in sin and carried some air of superiority because 1. He was born a Kennedy  2. He had money  3.  His family got him a Senate seat  4. He was Catholic. 

Don't try to check me about my sins in the full sight of what that man has perpetrated his whole life...  Don't be the hypocrite he was. 

[ex cathedra]

i would like to think my church body would have acted rightly not like the roman catholic church .

Humm, gee that's funny ex cathedra, if that is so, then maybe you can explain this...

Rep. Ron Kind is a Democrat member of Congress who is an active member in good standing of a WELS congregation, two actually, one in his home district and one in D.C.  Here is his voting record, available to the public and well known throughout his political career.  It clearly shows his votes in favor of abortion, embryonic stem cell research, gay rights, no votes on banning minors from crossing state lines to get an abortion, no on banning gay adoptions, etc., etc.,...

He is rated 100% by NARAL, (Just like Ted Kennedy!), the largest abortion support organization in the country, and yet, now funny here, contrary to everything you have just said, he continues to receive communion at his church and has never been ex communicated.

Now you wouldn't be so blinded by your anti-Catholicism that you don't realize that your own denomination does not excommunicate or deny the Eucharist to someone for holding a political opinion or even voting on legislation that disagrees with your church's teaching, because I have just provided you with rock-solid evidence confirming it.

See that pesky beam in your own eye?  How bout' you WELS guys dig that out first before coming over to our house and slamming on us about the splinter in ours.

http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Ron_Kind.htm

Ron Kind's biography lists him as:  member of Immanuel Lutheran Church, LaCrosse, Wisconsin from 1993 to present.  Mr. Kind is a WELS member in good standing and partakes in the Holy Supper.

http://www.wfn.org/2009/01/msg00039.html

http://joshschroeder.blogspot.com/2009/08/who-is-ron-kind.html

1.  Catholic funerals are not "high profile" or "low profile".  There is only one kind of Catholic funeral.  Senator Kennedy's was large because he was such an historic figure and important Senator who had served for over 40 years in that body.  Any funeral he had was going to be "high profile", Catholic or not, his religion had nothing to do with it.

2.  My Church did not "cave".  It would have been inappropriate, and probably a violation of episcopal norms, to have not given Senator Kennedy a Catholic funeral.  Catholic funerals are not given based on whether the person was a sinner.  I suggest you read my last post to understand why.  

3.  The Catholic Church has virtually identical positions on social issues that WELS does and is known to be a staunch defender of those positions.  Inexplicably, you seem to be unaware of that.  Are you really ignorant of the tremendous effort my Church puts into fighting abortion, gay marriage, pornography, feminism, etc.?

thanks for information on the wels member

Check  lutheran forum out On Mr Ron Kind And his stance on abortion.




I am not anti catholic. --------------------The papacy is.

[ex cathedra]

check out what is written about wels member  in the lutheran forum

[desertknight]

From everything I witnessed in my life of his life and I was old enough to witness his killing Mary Jo...    To now...  

And if he asked God sincerely for forgiveness for that act, is he not forgiven?  How do you judge him with a certainty that he didn't?  This is what I do not get.  You act as if you know the intimate details of the state of his soul at his death.  By what knowledge of that moment, do you so harshly judge the soul of another man at his death?  Why do I get the feeling that you truly believe that as you so dislike Mr. Kennedy, that well, God must of course, share your view!  Because you would not forgive him, then well, of course, God would not either!  Do you have any idea how arrogant and un-Christian you sound when you presume this and you presume to know what Ted Kennedy's state of grace was at his death?

He was not my Christian brother.  The thing that you Catholics often miss is that JOINING the Catholic Church does not make you a Christian or saved.

When one "joins" the Catholic Church, one is baptized under the sign of water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and it very much makes you a Christian.

And "You will know them by their fruits"...

How true, and you are in my prayers for that reason.  

That means...  I have not taken a spec from my brothers eye...  at all.  He wasn't my brother.

I cannot imagine a more profound misunderstanding of the Christian faith than this.  He IS your brother!  Your worst, non-Christian enemy on this planet is your brother, whom you should love and pray for.  Did you just not get this in your formation in the Christian faith?  

Do you suppose that the term speck was meant for someone who was picking on the Pharisee?

Yes! Yes!  It was meant exactly for that!  You just do not seem to understand that that Scriptural passage is not about the person whom you are criticizing, Ted Kennedy, a Pharisee, or not, it is about YOU!  It is about passing judgment on the soul of a man while assuming that you are better than he.  It is about your arrogance in assuming that Mr. Kennedy is damned but you are saved and deserving of it because your opinion of him, must inevitably be God's, that your judgment of him, must also be the Lord's.  How could you have gotten so fundamental a thing wrong about the faith?  How do you so fundamentally get wrong, in this odd idea you have, that even if one sincerely and contritely asks God for forgiveness, that you still are not forgiven by Him, because your hard heart cannot see that possibility?

Don't try to check me about my sins in the full sight of what that man has perpetrated his whole life...  Don't be the hypocrite he was.  

Oh, I don't brother.  I'm not one to do that.  I never presume to know another's soul as I know what Scripture has to say on that subject.   Your sins are none of my business other than my desire to see them expunged by God's grace.  The state of your soul is none of my business, other than the prayers for it that you will get from me this day while I am at Mass.  Sen. Kennedy's sins are only my business as he was my brother and I pray for his soul and that God may have received him.  That is what a true Christian is supposed to do for I know that my sins that I commit are more than enough to condemn me to hell, but not for the grace I receive through asking, the grace given by my Lord and Saviour through His gift of Love.

John 8:7  "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

"When God lays his hands on a man Sir, I take mine off Sir!"

Senator Thomas Hart Benton on why he would not criticize after death, his perpetual political enemy, Sen. John C. Calhoun.

[ex cathedra]

From everything I witnessed in my life of his life and I was old enough to witness his killing Mary Jo...    To now...  

And if he asked God sincerely for forgiveness for that act, is he not forgiven?  How do you judge him with a certainty that he didn't?  This is what I do not get.  You act as if you know the intimate details of the state of his soul at his death.  By what knowledge of that moment, do you so harshly judge the soul of another man at his death?  Why do I get the feeling that you truly believe that as you so dislike Mr. Kennedy, that well, God must of course, share your view!  Because you would not forgive him, then well, of course, God would not either!  Do you have any idea how arrogant and un-Christian you sound when you presume this and you presume to know what Ted Kennedy's state of grace was at his death?

He was not my Christian brother.  The thing that you Catholics often miss is that JOINING the Catholic Church does not make you a Christian or saved.

When one "joins" the Catholic Church, one is baptized under the sign of water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and it very much makes you a Christian.

And "You will know them by their fruits"...

How true, and you are in my prayers for that reason.  

That means...  I have not taken a spec from my brothers eye...  at all.  He wasn't my brother.

I cannot imagine a more profound misunderstanding of the Christian faith than this.  He IS your brother!  Your worst, non-Christian enemy on this planet is your brother, whom you should love and pray for.  Did you just not get this in your formation in the Christian faith?  

Do you suppose that the term speck was meant for someone who was picking on the Pharisee?

Yes! Yes!  It was meant exactly for that!  You just do not seem to understand that that Scriptural passage is not about the person whom you are criticizing, Ted Kennedy, a Pharisee, or not, it is about YOU!  It is about passing judgment on the soul of a man while assuming that you are better than he.  It is about your arrogance in assuming that Mr. Kennedy is damned but you are saved and deserving of it because your opinion of him, must inevitably be God's, that your judgment of him, must also be the Lord's.  How could you have gotten so fundamental a thing wrong about the faith?  How do you so fundamentally get wrong, in this odd idea you have, that even if one sincerely and contritely asks God for forgiveness, that you still are not forgiven by Him, because your hard heart cannot see that possibility?

Don't try to check me about my sins in the full sight of what that man has perpetrated his whole life...  Don't be the hypocrite he was.  

Oh, I don't brother.  I'm not one to do that.  I never presume to know another's soul as I know what Scripture has to say on that subject.   Your sins are none of my business other than my desire to see them expunged by God's grace.  The state of your soul is none of my business, other than the prayers for it that you will get from me this day while I am at Mass.  Sen. Kennedy's sins are only my business as he was my brother and I pray for his soul and that God may have received him.  That is what a true Christian is supposed to do for I know that my sins that I commit are more than enough to condemn me to hell, but not for the grace I receive through asking, the grace given by my Lord and Saviour through His gift of Love.

John 8:7  "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

"When God lays his hands on a man Sir, I take mine off Sir!"

Senator Thomas Hart Benton on why he would not criticize after death, his perpetual political enemy, Sen. John C. Calhoun.

the answer is
We cant know for sure if a person is repentent or not. I Cant see into hearts and you Cant.




We humans are not God who  justify's   the  ungodly .

saddly we poor sinners our own selves ;must justify a repentant heart  by what we see.  So we look for fruits of repentance. Sad   We sinners must also  look for  fruits to see if there is faith. And we often judge wrong about both . Yet God knows we are but dust and who realy trust in Him

We humans Justify a person by what we see other persons  doing. and if you study  the book of James carefuly it says "people' Not God Must  justify people by what they see..


James put's it this way "show me " The state of missouri was not the first show me state . "James stated that fact about humans  first"


james 18    But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
     "Show me" your faith without deeds, and I will "show you" my faith by what I do.

Only God justifys the ungodly and knows a person's heart .

yet God through james tells us how us sinners  justify .

[Jimbob]

Once a man's body is given to dust, and his soul to its Maker and Judge, why do we feel the need to armchair quarterback the One who be our Judge as well? 

An odd sport this.

[DCR]

Once a man's body is given to dust, and his soul to its Maker and Judge, why do we feel the need to armchair quarterback the One who be our Judge as well? 

An odd sport this.

Yep.

[ex cathedra]

desertknight

I apologize your right About kennedy Only his pastor and congregation have the right to decide if he should have been given a high profile christian funeral.Only they know all the facts and what he said his intentions are.

I have seen the light so to speak after talking to--rep Ron kinds--- pastor


I apologize your right About kennedy Only his pastor and congregation have the right to decide if he should have been given a christian funeral.Only they know all the facts and what he said his intentions are.

I have seen the light so to speak after talking to--rep Ron kinds--- pastor.


What if kennedy also  said he believed abortion was murder and a grievious sin in Gods eyes.

What if he told his priest this" The  climate in washington is they have enough votes to pass abortion on demand   and their are so many  american people who want abortion on demand . Concidering all this  evidance.   The only way i  could save some babies out of the many who were sure to die was to --------regulate abortion through legilation.

I know i look like a monster on paper But God knows my intentions To save some by regulating abortion. Just as he knew Moses--- who regulated divorce knowing full well  It also is a grievious and mortal  sin abd that God hated that also.

[kensington]

Dessert Knight...

He was not my brother... "Who are my brothers"- "Those who do the will of the Father are my brothers"...  

NO.... When one REPENTS of their sins and receives Jesus as LORD, they are Christian.  I've seen many people JOIN the Catholic church and not do that.  Or even slow down on the sins they commit.

I did not say he was damned...  You are assuming that I meant that.  

Pray for his soul?  Why?  If you are convinced he is a brother in the LORD and forgiven...  what would be the point?

And if the word is true...  why pray now at all?  He is before God and his judgment for eternity is also.  While praying for the dead may comfort you, the word does not say it does anything for them.

And one last thing... It's not my judgment at all that I stand on.  It is the judgment of God, set forth by his word, established for all eternity.  

PS....By the way Brother... I am a sister.

[banished]

There have been one or two much lower-profile Congressmen who have been denied Communion by their local priests and/or regional bishops, because of their very public efforts to promote legislation for things that are supposed to be repugnant to Catholics -- like abortion-on-demand.

I do not recall that happening to bigshots like Kennedy.

Nothing like that is going to come down from the Vatican.  The Pope had bigger fish to fry.  He's got government people who are Catholic, some of them in at least nominally Catholic countries, doing all sorts of evil all the time, all over the world.  Starting right there wil Italy.  If he took time to personally see that they were all excommunicated he'd have no time to eat or take a bath or anything for 20 years.  Excommunication is a long involved process.

Hello janine,

Excommunicaton is not a long involved process when it come to Abortion:

Promoting Abortion

Catholic Cannon Law of the Church


Those Catholics who publicly announce their denial that abortion is always gravely immoral, or who publicly promote abortion, or who publicly argue in favor of legalized abortion, also commit a mortal sin and also incur a sentence of automatic excommunication.


This sentence of excommunication applies to Catholics who are politicians, as well as to those Catholics who are political commentators, or public speakers, or who write or otherwise publicly communicate their erroneous view that abortion can be morally-acceptable or that abortion should be legal. This sentence of excommunication also certainly applies to those Catholics who claim to be theologians or Biblical scholars, but who believe or teach that abortion is not always gravely immoral.


Those Catholics who promote abortion are automatically excommunicated for two reasons. First, they have fallen into the sin of heresy by believing that abortion is not always gravely immoral (canons 751 and 1364). Second, these Catholics are providing substantial assistance for women to obtain abortions by influencing public policy to make abortions legal, and to keep abortions legal, and to broaden access to abortion. Those who provide such substantial assistance commit a mortal sin and incur a sentence of automatic excommunication (canon 1398).

[banished]

I just got a private email from a liberal catholic who claims to be a defender of the faith.  He seems to believe that there is no Automatic Excommunication for Supporting Abortion. I want to make it clear that his views are not shared by conservative catholics. He will post a reply later.

Richard

[desertknight]

 I have no idea what "liberal Catholic" you may be referring to.  I am a pro-life, conservative Catholic, who also happens to be a Republican, but I did send you a PM that states the Church's position on the subject quite clearly...

Catholic News Service, June 4, 2007

...In the interview [Italian newspaper Avvenire June 3], Cardinal Bertone also commented on Pope Benedict's recent remarks to reporters about the possible excommunication of Catholic politicians who support legislation to make abortion legal.

"It seems clear to me that the pope recalled that it is up to individual bishops to establish whether and when to impose excommunication," Cardinal Bertone said.

The cardinal added that in the case of Catholic politicians, such a penalty would be carried out "ferendae sententiae" -- imposed by the judgment of a church court or authority -- rather than automatically incurred.

Cardinal Bertone was apparently distinguishing the situation of Catholic politicians from that of people directly involved in procuring abortion, for which the penalty is automatic excommunication. "

http://www.sacredchoices.org/News_Tracker/automatic_excommunication_clarified.htm

"Father Lombardi-- who noted that his statement had the Pope's approval-- stressed that the Pope had not declared anyone excommunicated. The Mexican bishops had threatened but not imposed that penalty; thus, the Vatican spokesman said, there was no decree of excommunication for the Pope to affirm."

"The thrust of the Pope's remarks, Father Lombardi said, was that politicians who support legal abortion should not receive Communion. The Pope was not declaring anyone excommunicated, he said, but the individuals who vote for abortion "have excluded themselves from Communion."

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=51031

That is not from me.  It is not personal opinion.  It is not from liberal Catholics.  It is from the Vatican Secretary of State and Camerlengo.  It is also from the official spokesman for the Holy Father and the Holy See in Rome, and official doctrine of the Catholic Church and Cannon Law.  

[banished]

Mr. Defender,

That's a lot of double-talk without any Cannon Law to back it up.  This quote is a good example:

"The Pope was not declaring anyone excommunicated, he said, but the individuals who vote for abortion "have excluded themselves from Communion."

By the way, you have proved that you are a Lberal by digging up that double-talk and posting it here.

Sorry, but we are talking about millions of abortions, not loop holes in what the Pope said.

Richard

[desertknight]

Who's "Mr. Defender"?   FYI, I am not a "liberal".   I am a conservative, orthodox, Catholic, who is as pro-life as they get, but I am a faithful Catholic who believes that, especially on a site that is predominately Protestant, that if you are going to post something as Catholic teaching, law, or belief, then you need to take the time to get it right.  

You said...

That's a lot of double-talk without any Cannon Law to back it up.  This quote is a good example:

"The Pope was not declaring anyone excommunicated, he said, but the individuals who vote for abortion "have excluded themselves from Communion."

The problem you have, is that I did not make that statement, the official spokesman for the Holy Father did!.  In fact, in his statement to the press, he stressed that, "his statement had the Pope's approval".

You keep trying to make this about me.  It has nothing to do with me.  I dug up no "double talk".  I posted the official statements of our Holy Church, now if you have a problem with that, I suggest you take it up with HH Pope Benedict XVI, for he is the author of that statement, not me.

[banished]

So, here's my final question to Cardinal Sean O'Malley: "Is the fame or popularity of a dissident Catholic enough for you to allow him a Royal Catholic funeral contrary to Canon Law and the Magisterium?"


Richard

[ex cathedra]

Desert knight a
a highly trained roman catholic priest has issued this statement on kennedys funeral almost echoing what i had first said .

desert knight if you Honestly think this priest is wrong in kennedys case or in general .

You should contact him. And let him know why you think he is  wrong.
And allow the priest to answer why.Many times Both pastor and layman can learn a great deal from each other. Gods blessing's



Human Life International's Statement on the Passing of Senator Edward Kennedy

We must, as a matter of precept, pray for the salvation of heretical Catholics like Senator Edward Kennedy, but we do not have to praise him let alone extol him with the full honors of a public Catholic funeral and all the adulation that attends such an event. There was very little about Ted Kennedy's life that deserves admiration from a spiritual or moral point of view. He was probably the worst example of a Catholic statesman that one can think of. When all is said and done, he has distorted the concept of what it means to be a Catholic in public life more than anyone else in leadership today.

Obviously we don't know the state of Senator Edward Kennedy's soul upon death. We don't pretend to. We are told by the family that he had the opportunity to confess his sins before a priest, and his priest has said publicly he was "at peace" when he died. For that we are grateful. But it is one thing to confess one's sins and for these matters to be kept, rightfully, private. It is another thing entirely for one who so consistently and publicly advocated for the destruction of unborn human beings to depart the stage without a public repudiation of these views, a public confession, as it were.

It is up to God to judge Senator Kennedy's soul. We, as rational persons, must judge his actions, and his actions were not at all in line with one who values and carefully applies Church teaching on weighty matters. Ted Kennedy's positions on a variety of issues have been a grave scandal for decades, and to honor this "catholic" champion of the culture of death with a Catholic funeral is unjust to those who have actually paid the price of fidelity. We now find out that President Obama will eulogize the Senator at his funeral, an indignity which, following on the heels of the Notre Dame fiasco, leaves faithful Catholics feeling sullied, desecrated and dehumanized by men who seem to look for opportunities to slap the Church in the face and do so with impunity simply because they have positions of power.

It is not enough for Kennedy to have been a "great guy behind the scenes" as we have seen him referred to even by his political opponents. It is also not praiseworthy to put a Catholic rhetorical veneer on his leftist politics that did nothing to advance true justice as the Church sees it or to advance the peace of Christ in this world. Every indication of Senator Kennedy's career, every public appearance, every sound bite showed an acerbic, divisive and partisan political hack for whom party politics were much more infallible than Church doctrines. Whatever one's political affiliation, if one is only "Catholic" to the extent that his faith rhymes with his party line, then his Catholicism is a fraud.

As the Scriptures remind us, there is a time for everything under the sun. This, now, is the time for honesty about our Faith and about those who are called to express it in the public forum. If we do not remind ourselves of the necessity of public confession for public sins such as Senator Kennedy was guilty of, then we are negligent in our embrace of the Faith and we are part of the problem. As Pope Benedict has reminded us recently, charity without truth can easily become mere sentimentality, and we must not fall into that error. A Catholic show of charity for the family must not eclipse the truth that is required of all with eyes to see and ears to hear.

Senator Kennedy needs to be sent to the afterlife with a private, family-only funeral and the prayers of the Church for the salvation of his immortal soul. He will not be missed by the unborn who he betrayed time and time again, nor by the rest of us who are laboring to undo the scandalous example of Catholicism that he gave to three generations of Americans.

Sincerely,

Rev. Thomas J. Euteneuer,
President, Human Life International

[ex cathedra]

Once a man's body is given to dust, and his soul to its Maker and Judge, why do we feel the need to armchair quarterback the One who be our Judge as well?  

An odd sport this.

You are allowed in this world  you know ----to  think differently but only -if you want ----- after you  read what this highly trained roman  catholic priest said about giving kennedy such a high profile funeral.

[Mikey]

Come on!  Ted Kennedy got away with Killing Mary Jo because he was a Kennedy.  Plain and simple.  He got a fancy schmancy funeral becasue he was a Kennedy.  I'm sure he donated mega bucks to have it.  Trying to buy his way in I suppose.

Wonder if he can fit through the "eye of the needle".