thethinker vs gospel on the special honor Jesus gave His disciples (Jn 14-16)

[thethinker]

My good friend Gospel wrote:

surprised at you Thinker, you should already know Jesus has One Plan and One Purpose

Not one for the Jews One for the 12 Apostles, one for the 72 apostles another for the 120 disciples and another for the Gentiles, another for men and another for women

One Gospel, One Plan, One Redemption

The key to understanding it is knowing what it is

When you start extracting and compartmentalizing Gods One Plan

Gospel,

As I said to the Fish you guys are reading the scripture with a conditioned mind and not with a trained mind. And again you are misrepresenting me. There is only one plan of salvation. But this does not exclude that Christ exalted His disciples to a position of special honor in the institution of that plan.

In John 14:1-4 Jesus was telling His disciples that they would enjoy a special place of honor with Himself. He said, "In My Father's house there are many abodes.... I go to prepare a place for YOU." The "house" is the church of God and the "abodes" those special places of honor reserved for the apostles and prophets. This does not mean that there is more than one plan of salvation. It means that the apostles would have a special place of honor in God's house regarding the institution of the plan of salvation. Jesus was exalting them to a position that was on a par with Himself. On another occasion Jesus had told them that He would give THEM the keys to the kingdom of heaven and that anything THEY had bound or loosed on earth would be bound or loosed in heaven.

I am sorry to have to inform you that these promises do NOT include you at all. Yo do NOT have the keys to the kingdom. You may NOT bind or loose anything on earth and expect it to be done in heaven. So count yourself out right now!

The confusion arises because many misunderstand what Jesus meant when He said that He would go away to prepare the positions for them and that He would "come again" to THEM that THEY may be wherever He is. People mistakingly think that Jesus was referring to His second coming when He said, "I will come again to YOU...that YOU may be where I am." Jesus was not referring to His second coming in glory. He was referring to that special presence and fellowship that He and His disciples would enjoy together as THEY exercised THEIR authority on the earth.

Jesus proceeded to expound many more things to THEM about the indwelling of the Father and His gift of peace and THEIR relationship to Him as branches to the true vine.

Then Jesus elevated THEM on a par with Himself,

15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Okay there it is! Jesus no longer called THEM servants. He now called THEM "friends" because He had told THEM everything.

But the disciples were still stumped regarding His saying that He would go away and prepare a place for THEM and then return to THEM (16:17-18). Jesus reassured THEM that THEIR sorrow would be turned into joy. Then He said this:

25 "These things I have spoken to you in FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE, but I will tell you plainly about the Father

Jesus explicitly said that His speech was "FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE". So His going to prepare a place for THEM had nothing to do with a place in heaven. It had to do with His preparing a position of authority for THEM which was to be exercised on earth.

Note what Jesus said in verses 22-23:

Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.

23 "And IN THAT DAY you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.

Note three facts here:

1. In the day THEY see Him again THEY would have a joy which no man could take away from THEM. This makes no sense if He was returning to take THEM back to heaven.

2. In the day THEY see Him again THEY may ask anything in His name and it will be given THEM. This refers to THEIR authority while THEY abide on the earth via HIS special presence with THEM.

3. In the day they see Him again THEIR joy would be the result of both His coming back to THEM and THEIR asking anything in His name and receiving it.

Did you get that? THEIR joy would also be the consequence of answered prayer! Why would THEY need to pray for things in heaven?

Therefore, the promise that THEY may be where He is had reference to THE authority THEY were to exercise on earth by His special presence with THEM. Jesus explicitly said that He was speaking FIGURATIVELY. This interpretation is substantiated in 17:22-24:

22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may discernMy glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

The context indicates that those whom the Father gave to Christ are the disciples. The word "glory" means "power and authority."  Jesus was saying that He had given to His disciples the power and authority that the Father had given to Him. He said that He gave that power and authority to His disciples that the world may KNOW that the Father had sent Him and so that they may be where He is and that they may "discern" His power and authority.

His going to prepare a place for THEM and returning to THEM was all about the world SEEING the unified power and authority the disciples had via the special presence of Christ with THEM and their KNOWING that the Father had sent Christ. It was in this way that the disciples were to be "where I am."

Don't be sorrowful that you are excluded from John 14-16. You are justified by faith and as a consequence you have peace with God and you rejoice in the hope of the glory of God in heaven (Rom ans 5:1-2).

thinker

[gospel]

But this does not exclude that Christ exalted His disciples to a position of special honor in the institution of that plan.

Scripture please?

Where is the scripture that apostles are exalted? I can save you some time by simply telling you there is none. But don't take it from me...give it a shot!

Jesus was telling His disciples that they would enjoy a special place of honor with Himself.

Special place of honor?...

Please cite verse and scripture where this phrase has its origin

The "house" is the church of God and the "abodes" those special places of honor reserved for the apostles and prophets.

Wow ....Please cite verse and scripture for that assertion, special places of honor, reserved seating and the like

At this point I must say, without moving past your 1st paragraph you've already made 3 statements that are not supported by scripture. Hopefully it gets better from here

He was referring to that special presence and fellowship that He and His disciples would enjoy together as THEY exercised THEIR authority on the earth.

THEY, THE APOSTLES did not have authority on earth!
The Holy Spirit has the authority and that is accessed through the authority of the use of Jesus Name which has been given all believers

Your trained mind has been trained to exalt men rather than the Power of God through men

Fundamental flaw and truthfully I do not know how much more of this I can tolerate.

I'm tired already and haven't even gotten to the meat of your post


In fact I have already posted a thorough response in the theology forum and refuse to go any further under the pretext of a debate in this forum

You have made far too many unfounded assertions already!

[thethinker]

I said:

But this does not exclude that Christ exalted His disciples to a position of special honor in the institution of that plan.

You replied:

Scripture please?

Where is the scripture that apostles are exalted? I can save you some time by simply telling you there is none. But don't take it from me...give it a shot!

Either you did not read my post or you are in denial. Please read my op again. Jesus said,

"And the glory you have given Me I have given THEM" John 17:22

The word "glory" means "honor and authority." It was the honor and authority Jesus had with the Father before the world began (vs. 5 which is the authority that had been given Him over all flesh. Jesus IMPARTED that authority to His disciples.

I said:

Jesus was telling His disciples that they would enjoy a special place of honor with Himself.

You repleed:

Special place of honor?...

Please cite verse and scripture where this phrase has its origin

You're kidding right? There are several in the op.

I said:

The "house" is the church of God and the "abodes" those special places of honor reserved for the apostles and prophets.

You replied:

Wow ....Please cite verse and scripture for that assertion, special places of honor, reserved seating and the like

Again you've got to be kidding me. The expression  "My Father's house" in the Gospels ALWAYS refers to the temple in Jerusalem (John 2:16; Luke 2:49). And the rooms in the temple were the places where the priests officiated. The priests were to live in those rooms while they were on temple duty. Their duty was to administrate the Mosaic covenant.

The Church is the new covenant temple and the rooms represent the places where the apostles administrated the new covenant. Paul said that the apostles are the administrators of the new covenant:

  our sufficiency [is] of God,

6who also made us [the apostles] sufficient [to be] ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.

2 Corinthians 3:5-6

The apostles were the administrators of the new covenant from the "rooms" of the spiritual temple, that is, the new covenant church. This was after the manner that the priests were the administrators of the old covenant from the rooms of the temple in Jerusalem.

The expression "My Father's house" is the temple of both the old and new covenannts. Hundreds of years of erroneous interpretations have obscured this truth. This is why I say that you read the Bible with a conditioned mind.

You said

At this point I must say, without moving past your 1st paragraph you've already made 3 statements that are not supported by scripture. Hopefully it gets better from here

You're choking early. You're asking me to provide scriptures already given you when you should be refuting my interpretations of those scriptures.

THEY, THE APOSTLES did not have authority on earth!

What! I already showed you that Jesus told them that whatsoever THEY bound or loosed on the earth would also be done in heaven. You just don't like it that you don't have the same authority.

Your trained mind has been trained to exalt men rather than the Power of God through men

It was JESUS who exalted them. He said that He had given THEM the power and authority that the Father had given Him (John 17:22). Your problem is that you feel slighted because Christ did not give you the same authority. You have been conditioned into thinking that everything in the Bible is all about you. "Me me me me me."

Fundamental flaw and truthfully I do not know how much more of this I can tolerate.

Translated, "I don't know if I can overcome the scriptures."

I'm tired already and haven't even gotten to the meat of your post

Too afraid eh?

thinker

[gospel]

I said:

But this does not exclude that Christ exalted His disciples to a position of special honor in the institution of that plan.

You replied:

Scripture please?

Where is the scripture that apostles are exalted? I can save you some time by simply telling you there is none. But don't take it from me...give it a shot!

Either you did not read my post or you are in denial. Please read my op again. Jesus said,

"And the glory you have given Me I have given THEM" John 17:22

The word "glory" means "honor and authority." It was the honor and authority Jesus had with the Father before the world began (vs. 5 which is the authority that had been given Him over all flesh. Jesus IMPARTED that authority to His disciples.

I said:

Jesus was telling His disciples that they would enjoy a special place of honor with Himself.

You repleed:

Special place of honor?...

Please cite verse and scripture where this phrase has its origin

You're kidding right? There are several in the op.

I said:

The "house" is the church of God and the "abodes" those special places of honor reserved for the apostles and prophets.

You replied:

Wow ....Please cite verse and scripture for that assertion, special places of honor, reserved seating and the like

Again you've got to be kidding me. The expression  "My Father's house" in the Gospels ALWAYS refers to the temple in Jerusalem (John 2:16; Luke 2:49). And the rooms in the temple were the places where the priests officiated. The priests were to live in those rooms while they were on temple duty. Their duty was to administrate the Mosaic covenant.

The Church is the new covenant temple and the rooms represent the places where the apostles administrated the new covenant. Paul said that the apostles are the administrators of the new covenant:

  our sufficiency [is] of God,

6who also made us [the apostles] sufficient [to be] ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.

2 Corinthians 3:5-6

The apostles were the administrators of the new covenant from the "rooms" of the spiritual temple, that is, the new covenant church. This was after the manner that the priests were the administrators of the old covenant from the rooms of the temple in Jerusalem.

The expression "My Father's house" is the temple of both the old and new covenannts. Hundreds of years of erroneous interpretations have obscured this truth. This is why I say that you read the Bible with a conditioned mind.

You said

At this point I must say, without moving past your 1st paragraph you've already made 3 statements that are not supported by scripture. Hopefully it gets better from here

You're choking early. You're asking me to provide scriptures already given you when you should be refuting my interpretations of those scriptures.

THEY, THE APOSTLES did not have authority on earth!

What! I already showed you that Jesus told them that whatsoever THEY bound or loosed on the earth would also be done in heaven. You just don't like it that you don't have the same authority.

Your trained mind has been trained to exalt men rather than the Power of God through men

It was JESUS who exalted them. He said that He had given THEM the power and authority that the Father had given Him (John 17:22). Your problem is that you feel slighted because Christ did not give you the same authority. You have been conditioned into thinking that everything in the Bible is all about you. "Me me me me me."

Fundamental flaw and truthfully I do not know how much more of this I can tolerate.

Translated, "I don't know if I can overcome the scriptures."

I'm tired already and haven't even gotten to the meat of your post

Too afraid eh?

thinker

Nope, I just decided it would be more entertaining to watch you and Jimmy debate this....

Two completely different styles in perfect agreement

I could learn a lot watching that

[thethinker]

I said:

Too afraid eh?

gospel replied:

Nope, I just decided it would be more entertaining to watch you and Jimmy debate this....

Gospel,

Who do you think you're kiddin bro! I have been on this earth a very long time. You couldn't take the heat.  Jimmy and I have said nothing about debating so where did yo get that? This all started by your reply to a post I made to Fish. You said that my view was "foolish." Then I challenged you to refute me and you can't. The whole internet world can see that you weren't up to the task.

Again, the disciples were perplexed regarding Jesus' words about His departure from THEM and return to THEM  in a "little while." Then Jesus came right out and said that He was speaking to them in figurative language (16:17-25).

The expression "My Father's house" when used by Jesus was ALWAYS a reference to the temple in Jerusalem. And the word "mansions" in 14:2 is corrupt translation which has resulted in false teaching. It simply means "abodes" or "rooms" as the rooms in the temple where the priests officiated.

Figuratively speaking Jesus was telling His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them to officiate in God's house which is the spiritual temple the church.

That this refers to the office of the disciples does not rob believers of their inheritance because it has no reference to their inheritance.

Next time you tell me my view is "foolish" be prepared.

thinker