How to please the Lord? - The only way is GRACE

[p.rehbein]

I understand your comment/thoughts Gospel, and that is why I stated in one of my comments the following:

(I kinda get the idea that we are working our way around to the excuse/idea that "everything is a gift from God, 'cause He created everything anyhoo.............birth, hair color, eye color, parents, siblings, heighth, weight, educational level, health, happiness, whatever................ since He is the Creator of all, and I don't think people will argue with that, then it would stand to reason that faith was part of His creation plan................and that is not really what the OP suggestted in my opinion.)
===============================================

This "faith" is the faith that is inherent in all men.  However, it differs from the "faith" that is a gift from the Holy Ghost in my opinion.  I do not see the two "faiths" as the same.  As well, and again in my opinion, the suggestion in the OP did not recognize the two "faiths," and thus the debate began, and/or misunderstandings arose.

We all have "qualities" that are inherent within us from birth, however due to the orrigional sin, we became "corruptable."  We are born with a sinful nature.  I do not consider a "sinful nature" to be a "gift" from God.  Yes, He created man, however man disobeyed Him and thus became corruptable.  This first "faith," the one that is inherent in all men, is the "corruptable" faith in my opinion.  The "faith" that is a gift from the Holy Ghost, is not a "corruptable" faith, again, in my opinion.

God bless

[pointmade]

P,rehbein: "We all have "qualities" that are inherent within us from birth, however due to the original sin, we became "corruptable."  We are born with a sinful nature.  I do not consider a "sinful nature" to be a "gift" from God.  Yes, He created man, however man disobeyed Him and thus became corruptable.  This first "faith," the one that is inherent in all men, is the "corruptable" faith in my opinion.  The "faith" that is a gift from the Holy Ghost, is not a "corruptable" faith, again, in my opinion."

You are saying that man must first be infused with the "Holy Ghost" before he can have faith?
I ask this because I understand that you are saying that "sinful man has inherited his sinful nature from Adam."


If I understand you correctly, God would have to take the initiative to cause sinful man to react to Him.
This would be called "Sovereign Grace" would it not?

Since man is so sinful due to his inheritance, from old daddy Adam,
he would have to first be "regenerated" in some manner would he not?
This regeneration can only be accomplished by the Holy Spirit...right?
This regeneration would have to be selective, irresistible, and effectual...right?

This sinful man would need to be "called" in some way would he not?
Just how is Homer Simpson to respond to GRACE?
Since "grace" is a "gift" that we seem to all agree on...just how is this corrupt sinner "from birth"
going to receive it? "Duh?"

In this line of reasoning, "faith" and "repentance" cannot be decisions of man's will,
or Homer would never get it!
This must be gifts sovereignly bestowed on Homer, a sinner (from birth) by the Holy Spirit.
Faith and repentance cannot be Homer's 'responce' to grace, but are part of the very 'content'
of grace, (the Holy Spirit did it!)

So, Mr. p.rehbein...This boils down to "Faith" as a result of the Spirit's sovereign work of regeneration.
It is the hinge of Reformed theology that "regeneration precedes faith"
(R.C. Sproul, "Grace Unlimited", 156, 186, 195).

[INJ]

It seems to me that this whole thread hinges upon which "faith" you are speaking of.  The faith which is inherent in all men, or the faith which is the gift of the Holy Spirit spoken of in Corinthinas?  The only way (for me) that your comments make sense is if you are speaking of the "faith" which is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

You said:

[Reflection: Faith is only (exclusively) given to the redeemed. It is not a virtue that can be worked up by human effort."]

First, faith may or may not be a "virtue."  Consider these examples if you will.  Mohammad, Buda, that Jones guy, Charlie Mansen, Hitler, the almighty dollar.  It is a truth that there were folks who believed in/placed their faith in these, and some still do today.  This "faith" is the inherent faith (ability to believe in someone/something) that is in all men.  This faith does not line up with your comments here.  Does that make sense? 

Faith is a gift of God for the redeemed, otherwise that would mean that all are saved regardless of commitment to christ. We all know that without commitment to Christ from a believing heart we will not enter into the promises of God.

[INJ]

P,rehbein: "We all have "qualities" that are inherent within us from birth, however due to the original sin, we became "corruptable."  We are born with a sinful nature.  I do not consider a "sinful nature" to be a "gift" from God.  Yes, He created man, however man disobeyed Him and thus became corruptable.  This first "faith," the one that is inherent in all men, is the "corruptable" faith in my opinion.  The "faith" that is a gift from the Holy Ghost, is not a "corruptable" faith, again, in my opinion."

You are saying that man must first be infused with the "Holy Ghost" before he can have faith?
I ask this because I understand that you are saying that "sinful man has inherited his sinful nature from Adam."


If I understand you correctly, God would have to take the initiative to cause sinful man to react to Him.
This would be called "Sovereign Grace" would it not?

Since man is so sinful due to his inheritance, from old daddy Adam,
he would have to first be "regenerated" in some manner would he not?
This regeneration can only be accomplished by the Holy Spirit...right?
This regeneration would have to be selective, irresistible, and effectual...right?

This sinful man would need to be "called" in some way would he not?
Just how is Homer Simpson to respond to GRACE?
Since "grace" is a "gift" that we seem to all agree on...just how is this corrupt sinner "from birth"
going to receive it? "Duh?"

In this line of reasoning, "faith" and "repentance" cannot be decisions of man's will,
or Homer would never get it!
This must be gifts sovereignly bestowed on Homer, a sinner (from birth) by the Holy Spirit.
Faith and repentance cannot be Homer's 'responce' to grace, but are part of the very 'content'
of grace, (the Holy Spirit did it!)

So, Mr. p.rehbein...This boils down to "Faith" as a result of the Spirit's sovereign work of regeneration.
It is the hinge of Reformed theology that "regeneration precedes faith"
(R.C. Sproul, "Grace Unlimited", 156, 186, 195).

Good point....very good

[gospel]

I understand your comment/thoughts Gospel, and that is why I stated in one of my comments the following:

(I kinda get the idea that we are working our way around to the excuse/idea that "everything is a gift from God, 'cause He created everything anyhoo.............birth, hair color, eye color, parents, siblings, heighth, weight, educational level, health, happiness, whatever................ since He is the Creator of all, and I don't think people will argue with that, then it would stand to reason that faith was part of His creation plan................and that is not really what the OP suggestted in my opinion.)
===============================================

This "faith" is the faith that is inherent in all men.  However, it differs from the "faith" that is a gift from the Holy Ghost in my opinion.  I do not see the two "faiths" as the same.  As well, and again in my opinion, the suggestion in the OP did not recognize the two "faiths," and thus the debate began, and/or misunderstandings arose.

We all have "qualities" that are inherent within us from birth, however due to the orrigional sin, we became "corruptable."  We are born with a sinful nature.  I do not consider a "sinful nature" to be a "gift" from God.  Yes, He created man, however man disobeyed Him and thus became corruptable.  This first "faith," the one that is inherent in all men, is the "corruptable" faith in my opinion.  The "faith" that is a gift from the Holy Ghost, is not a "corruptable" faith, again, in my opinion.

God bless

Great post I perfectly agree with your conclusions!

Truth is Truth, it is God's Truth what makes it incorruptible is that no matter how it is twisted into deception, lies and falsehood it will endure because The Truth is still the Truth no matter what....

So what I am saying is this....a lie, a deception and a falsehood are not the corrupting of Truth, they are the compromising of truth to create an entirely perverse thing, something apart from Truth because God's Truth is incorruptible....for instance...

God Almighty is The True and Living God, Holy and Righteous, the Creator of Heaven and Earth

That is The Truth and remains such no matter what Satan may say, no matter what scientists might say, no matter what atheists might say and all of them say quite a lot. Yet the fact remains that The Truth remains and endures perfectly intact and incorruptible no matter what they say...the Truth is unalterable and does not change just because something else is fabricated out of it

In the same way Faith, bible faith, God's Faith that he has given to every man is also incorruptible ...

Though a non believer may use it to build a successful corporation or a new invention it is still the faith that has been given him...incorruptible.
The difference is how it is used, is it used to glorify God or debase him, is it used to bring good to people or harm to them...

In every case it comes by hearing, for whatever we hear over and over, we tend to eventually agree with, even if it is just tacitly, the fact that we allow ourselves to hear anything on a continual basis forms a consensus, an approval and eventually a a heartfelt belief ....

This is why God abhors, gossip, backbiting, bickering murmuring and complaining...for in the long run they produce a faith that is contrary to it's God given purpose

Hopefully some of that makes a little sense  


Bottom line
Long one stated short

Faith, like Love and Truth cannot be corrupted but rather a person depending on what they are listening to can be influenced to USE faith in a corrupt manner

IMO

[INJ]

I understand your comment/thoughts Gospel, and that is why I stated in one of my comments the following:

(I kinda get the idea that we are working our way around to the excuse/idea that "everything is a gift from God, 'cause He created everything anyhoo.............birth, hair color, eye color, parents, siblings, heighth, weight, educational level, health, happiness, whatever................ since He is the Creator of all, and I don't think people will argue with that, then it would stand to reason that faith was part of His creation plan................and that is not really what the OP suggestted in my opinion.)
===============================================

This "faith" is the faith that is inherent in all men.  However, it differs from the "faith" that is a gift from the Holy Ghost in my opinion.  I do not see the two "faiths" as the same.  As well, and again in my opinion, the suggestion in the OP did not recognize the two "faiths," and thus the debate began, and/or misunderstandings arose.

We all have "qualities" that are inherent within us from birth, however due to the orrigional sin, we became "corruptable."  We are born with a sinful nature.  I do not consider a "sinful nature" to be a "gift" from God.  Yes, He created man, however man disobeyed Him and thus became corruptable.  This first "faith," the one that is inherent in all men, is the "corruptable" faith in my opinion.  The "faith" that is a gift from the Holy Ghost, is not a "corruptable" faith, again, in my opinion.

God bless

Great post I perfectly agree with your conclusions!

Truth is Truth, it is God's Truth what makes it incorruptible is that no matter how it is twisted into deception, lies and falsehood it will endure because The Truth is still the Truth no matter what....

So what I am saying is this....a lie, a deception and a falsehood are not the corrupting of Truth, they are the compromising of truth to create an entirely perverse thing, something apart from Truth because God's Truth is incorruptible....for instance...

God Almighty is The True and Living God, Holy and Righteous, the Creator of Heaven and Earth

That is The Truth and remains such no matter what Satan may say, no matter what scientists might say, no matter what atheists might say and all of them say quite a lot. Yet the fact remains that The Truth remains and endures perfectly intact and incorruptible no matter what they say...the Truth is unalterable and does not change just because something else is fabricated out of it

In the same way Faith, bible faith, God's Faith that he has given to every man is also incorruptible ...

Though a non believer may use it to build a successful corporation or a new invention it is still the faith that has been given him...incorruptible.
The difference is how it is used, is it used to glorify God or debase him, is it used to bring good to people or harm to them...

In every case it comes by hearing, for whatever we hear over and over, we tend to eventually agree with, even if it is just tacitly, the fact that we allow ourselves to hear anything on a continual basis forms a consensus, an approval and eventually a a heartfelt belief ....

This is why God abhors, gossip, backbiting, bickering murmuring and complaining...for in the long run they produce a faith that is contrary to it's God given purpose

Hopefully some of that makes a little sense  


Bottom line
Long one stated short

Faith, like Love and Truth cannot be corrupted but rather a person depending on what they are listening to can be influenced to USE faith in a corrupt manner

IMO

There are some very wise thoughts in what you have said 

[gospel]

I understand your comment/thoughts Gospel, and that is why I stated in one of my comments the following:

(I kinda get the idea that we are working our way around to the excuse/idea that "everything is a gift from God, 'cause He created everything anyhoo.............birth, hair color, eye color, parents, siblings, heighth, weight, educational level, health, happiness, whatever................ since He is the Creator of all, and I don't think people will argue with that, then it would stand to reason that faith was part of His creation plan................and that is not really what the OP suggestted in my opinion.)
===============================================

This "faith" is the faith that is inherent in all men.  However, it differs from the "faith" that is a gift from the Holy Ghost in my opinion.  I do not see the two "faiths" as the same.  As well, and again in my opinion, the suggestion in the OP did not recognize the two "faiths," and thus the debate began, and/or misunderstandings arose.

We all have "qualities" that are inherent within us from birth, however due to the orrigional sin, we became "corruptable."  We are born with a sinful nature.  I do not consider a "sinful nature" to be a "gift" from God.  Yes, He created man, however man disobeyed Him and thus became corruptable.  This first "faith," the one that is inherent in all men, is the "corruptable" faith in my opinion.  The "faith" that is a gift from the Holy Ghost, is not a "corruptable" faith, again, in my opinion.

God bless

Great post I perfectly agree with your conclusions!

Truth is Truth, it is God's Truth what makes it incorruptible is that no matter how it is twisted into deception, lies and falsehood it will endure because The Truth is still the Truth no matter what....

So what I am saying is this....a lie, a deception and a falsehood are not the corrupting of Truth, they are the compromising of truth to create an entirely perverse thing, something apart from Truth because God's Truth is incorruptible....for instance...

God Almighty is The True and Living God, Holy and Righteous, the Creator of Heaven and Earth

That is The Truth and remains such no matter what Satan may say, no matter what scientists might say, no matter what atheists might say and all of them say quite a lot. Yet the fact remains that The Truth remains and endures perfectly intact and incorruptible no matter what they say...the Truth is unalterable and does not change just because something else is fabricated out of it

In the same way Faith, bible faith, God's Faith that he has given to every man is also incorruptible ...

Though a non believer may use it to build a successful corporation or a new invention it is still the faith that has been given him...incorruptible.
The difference is how it is used, is it used to glorify God or debase him, is it used to bring good to people or harm to them...

In every case it comes by hearing, for whatever we hear over and over, we tend to eventually agree with, even if it is just tacitly, the fact that we allow ourselves to hear anything on a continual basis forms a consensus, an approval and eventually a a heartfelt belief ....

This is why God abhors, gossip, backbiting, bickering murmuring and complaining...for in the long run they produce a faith that is contrary to it's God given purpose

Hopefully some of that makes a little sense  


Bottom line
Long one stated short

Faith, like Love and Truth cannot be corrupted but rather a person depending on what they are listening to can be influenced to USE faith in a corrupt manner

IMO

There are some very wise thoughts in what you have said 

Thanks INJ, all glory to God in the Highest and that

Coming from you... I am indeed humbled

[p.rehbein]

INJ, here's your other post about all of this............read through it again and you will have all the answers/responses you need concerning your new post............

God bless.............

[INJ]

INJ, here's your other post about all of this............read through it again and you will have all the answers/responses you need concerning your new post............

God bless.............

I have never asked the questions in here that I asked on the other post. You are mistaken regardless of the similarities. I suppose the next time I mention Jesus Christ you will accuse me of mentioning him in another post. But I hope not!

[p.rehbein]

INJ, here's your other post about all of this............read through it again and you will have all the answers/responses you need concerning your new post............

God bless.............

I have never asked the questions in here that I asked on the other post. You are mistaken regardless of the similarities. I suppose the next time I mention Jesus Christ you will accuse me of mentioning him in another post. But I hope not!

, seriously?  Lesseeee..............."faith" === "grace" === "works" === "gift" === hmmmmmmm...........

aren't all these in this thread and in the other?  aren't they the central focus of both threads?   

I do have to smile when you suggest just because you ask a "different" question, it's not the same thread topic.  That's like talking about getting a "yellow" sweater as a "gift" Christmas morning and saying you had nothing to do with getting it, it was just a gift!
Then starting another thred and saying you got a "green" sweater for your birthday as a "gift" and you had nothing to do with it!  Now, granted one was yellow, and one was green, and one was your birthday, and one was Christmas, but they are both sweaters, they were both gifts, and you say you had nothing to do with getting them, it was "predestined." 

Still, as I said, go ahead and enjoy yourself, and I hope you have a productive discussion.........................but it is still:

POTATO ============== 'TATTER

God bless............

[INJ]

INJ, here's your other post about all of this............read through it again and you will have all the answers/responses you need concerning your new post............

God bless.............

I have never asked the questions in here that I asked on the other post. You are mistaken regardless of the similarities. I suppose the next time I mention Jesus Christ you will accuse me of mentioning him in another post. But I hope not!

, seriously?  Lesseeee..............."faith" === "grace" === "works" === "gift" === hmmmmmmm...........

aren't all these in this thread and in the other?  aren't they the central focus of both threads?   

I do have to smile when you suggest just because you ask a "different" question, it's not the same thread topic.  That's like talking about getting a "yellow" sweater as a "gift" Christmas morning and saying you had nothing to do with getting it, it was just a gift!
Then starting another thred and saying you got a "green" sweater for your birthday as a "gift" and you had nothing to do with it!  Now, granted one was yellow, and one was green, and one was your birthday, and one was Christmas, but they are both sweaters, they were both gifts, and you say you had nothing to do with getting them, it was "predestined." 

Still, as I said, go ahead and enjoy yourself, and I hope you have a productive discussion.........................but it is still:

POTATO ============== 'TATTER

God bless............

I get your point. But this was not my intent at all. I am discussing the faith of Christ (Gal 2) in the other thread and not the gift of faith (Eph 2:8). True they are linked because all scripture is and so are of beliefs but not they are not the same. If seminary or bible discussion on these subjects can be separated and investigated a different issues with a connection, then surely I must have a point?