Dinosaurs and their place?

[Neutralgray]

Hello. I'm new to this place and this is only my second visit.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/introductions/an-impassive-observer~/

Please read the link above to acquaint yourself with me. Thank you.


I can tell easily that I'm not the only one who has come here with questions. I'm not trying to chip away at any faith or build it up nor am I trying be a unique edgy teenager. I'm no more intelligent than anyone here. I'm merely curious and would actually like and prefer answers that answer my questions but fit them in a Christian light because that is essentially why I came here.


So.... my first question seemed most appropriate for this place. Where do the colossal creatures of the past, the dinosaurs, fit into the timeline of the Bible? If you take a strict Fundamentalist view and perceive the world to be only 6,000 years of age how can the wipeout of dinosaurs be placed roughly 64 million years ago? What about our predictions saying that man and giant reptile could not have co-existed? Do you think the Earth existed long before man and the Bible primarily takes interest in only man's history on Earth since religion is only a foundation of man, and no other animal, so that way dinosaurs could have existed without necessarily contradicting the Bible? Do you think they never existed at all? Then why the bones? A test? How fair of a test is  that, really?



So, yes. I may or may not debate this question depending on the answers I get. If I do debate it will probably only be to gauge more questions any answers bring up. I'm not here to start a fight, though. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are. Thank you.

[AVZ]

Hello. I'm new to this place and this is only my second visit.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/introductions/an-impassive-observer~/

Please read the link above to acquaint yourself with me. Thank you.


I can tell easily that I'm not the only one who has come here with questions. I'm not trying to chip away at any faith or build it up nor am I trying be a unique edgy teenager. I'm no more intelligent than anyone here. I'm merely curious and would actually like and prefer answers that answer my questions but fit them in a Christian light because that is essentially why I came here.


So.... my first question seemed most appropriate for this place. Where do the colossal creatures of the past, the dinosaurs, fit into the timeline of the Bible? If you take a strict Fundamentalist view and perceive the world to be only 6,000 years of age how can the wipeout of dinosaurs be placed roughly 64 million years ago? What about our predictions saying that man and giant reptile could not have co-existed? Do you think the Earth existed long before man and the Bible primarily takes interest in only man's history on Earth since religion is only a foundation of man, and no other animal, so that way dinosaurs could have existed without necessarily contradicting the Bible? Do you think they never existed at all? Then why the bones? A test? How fair of a test is  that, really?



So, yes. I may or may not debate this question depending on the answers I get. If I do debate it will probably only be to gauge more questions any answers bring up. I'm not here to start a fight, though. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are. Thank you.

My opinion, being a literal creationist.
Dinosaurs lived on the earth and where wiped out by the flood.
And no, I do not believe in a creation that lasted millions of years. For me it is 6 days x 24 hours.

As for the earth itself.
Genesis 1:2 appears to say that God did create the earth but not as part of the first creation day.
It may have been there unused for a very long time.

However, since science is not able to measure scientific historical constants, the variables of the various laws of nature may have been totally different then as they are today.
If that indeed is the case then the results of methods of calculating age (which totally depend on scientific constants) are logically flawed.

[Helen]

Hi there!

My husband has done 35 years' of research in geology, physics and astronomy.  I'll try to make his findings short.  First of all, the world and the entire universe is incredibly young -- and the data shows this -- well under 10,000 years.  Atomic dating, which dates the rocks and dinosaurs and such, is based on atomic processes.  The current assumption is that these processes have remained the same 'forever.'  However the data itself from astronomy and physics shows this is not true.  Atomic processes were quite a bit faster in the past and at the time of the Creation Week were running over a billion times faster than right now. 

God says 12 times in the Bible that HE stretched out the heavens (the Big Bang folk were a few thousand years behind in discovering the universe expanded, and quite rapidly at first).  Think of blowing up a balloon and not tying it, but letting it go.  The potential energy you invested in it by blowing it up converts to kinetic energy extremely rapidly at first and then slows down as it finishes.  That is exactly what happened with the universe itself.  God invested an incredible amount of potential energy into it and this converted into kinetic energy extraordinarily rapidly at first and then slowed down to its relatively stable state today. 

About the dinosaurs.  They definitely lived when men did.  We have records of that.  The simplest one is actually the Chinese zodiac, which is based on animals.  The 'dragon' -- which is the old name for the dinosaur -- is one of them.  They did not place an imaginary creature in with the real ones.  Alexander the Great's records show the confrontation of his army with some sort of cave monster as they approached India.  We have "St. George and the Dragon" and "Beowulf" and the Thunderbird of the American Indians.  There are diagrams/pictures of various 'monsters' on Greek vases and friezes. 

Nor were they wiped out by the Flood of Noah.  That Flood did not fossilize anything.  It was much too fierce and the waters were scalding, coming in the majority, as they did, from under the crust of the earth.  The Flood layer geologically is UNDER the "Cambrian explosion" and comprises about 2 miles in thickness of carbon and kerogen rich material -- finely layered black strata.  It is most visible in the Flinders area of South Australia.  Kerogen is the product of the breakdown of flesh and muscle tissue.

When atomic dating is corrected (via mathematics from the red shift curve) to orbital dating, the dinosaurs were wiped out at the time of the continental division catastrophe at the time of Peleg (and Job).  Just before that time they had only been able to survive (the large ones in particular) in the giant river valleys, where there were enough plants and water to sustain them (the book of Job refers to this).  It took about 200 years for the massive division of the continents and during that time giant tsunamis swept up those river valleys from the oceans, wiping out the live forms there.  Because people lived on the upper lands primarily, they and the mammals survived. 

The study that we did on this is on our website here:  http://www.setterfield.org/Genesis%201-11/Introduction.html -- "Genesis 1-11, Can you believe it?" 

"Data and Creation" might also help.  It is lay oriented:  http://www.setterfield.org/ZPE-Plasma_model.html

My husband has also figured out one of the reasons for the gigantism we see in the fossil record:  http://www.setterfield.org/zpe_giantism.html

Hope all that helps. 

[AVZ]

Hi there!

My husband has done 35 years' of research in geology, physics and astronomy.  I'll try to make his findings short.  First of all, the world and the entire universe is incredibly young -- and the data shows this -- well under 10,000 years.  Atomic dating, which dates the rocks and dinosaurs and such, is based on atomic processes.  The current assumption is that these processes have remained the same 'forever.'  However the data itself from astronomy and physics shows this is not true.  Atomic processes were quite a bit faster in the past and at the time of the Creation Week were running over a billion times faster than right now. 

God says 12 times in the Bible that HE stretched out the heavens (the Big Bang folk were a few thousand years behind in discovering the universe expanded, and quite rapidly at first).  Think of blowing up a balloon and not tying it, but letting it go.  The potential energy you invested in it by blowing it up converts to kinetic energy extremely rapidly at first and then slows down as it finishes.  That is exactly what happened with the universe itself.  God invested an incredible amount of potential energy into it and this converted into kinetic energy extraordinarily rapidly at first and then slowed down to its relatively stable state today. 

About the dinosaurs.  They definitely lived when men did.  We have records of that.  The simplest one is actually the Chinese zodiac, which is based on animals.  The 'dragon' -- which is the old name for the dinosaur -- is one of them.  They did not place an imaginary creature in with the real ones.  Alexander the Great's records show the confrontation of his army with some sort of cave monster as they approached India.  We have "St. George and the Dragon" and "Beowulf" and the Thunderbird of the American Indians.  There are diagrams/pictures of various 'monsters' on Greek vases and friezes. 

Nor were they wiped out by the Flood of Noah.  That Flood did not fossilize anything.  It was much too fierce and the waters were scalding, coming in the majority, as they did, from under the crust of the earth.  The Flood layer geologically is UNDER the "Cambrian explosion" and comprises about 2 miles in thickness of carbon and kerogen rich material -- finely layered black strata.  It is most visible in the Flinders area of South Australia.  Kerogen is the product of the breakdown of flesh and muscle tissue.

When atomic dating is corrected (via mathematics from the red shift curve) to orbital dating, the dinosaurs were wiped out at the time of the continental division catastrophe at the time of Peleg (and Job).  Just before that time they had only been able to survive (the large ones in particular) in the giant river valleys, where there were enough plants and water to sustain them (the book of Job refers to this).  It took about 200 years for the massive division of the continents and during that time giant tsunamis swept up those river valleys from the oceans, wiping out the live forms there.  Because people lived on the upper lands primarily, they and the mammals survived. 

The study that we did on this is on our website here:  http://www.setterfield.org/Genesis%201-11/Introduction.html -- "Genesis 1-11, Can you believe it?" 

"Data and Creation" might also help.  It is lay oriented:  http://www.setterfield.org/ZPE-Plasma_model.html

My husband has also figured out one of the reasons for the gigantism we see in the fossil record:  http://www.setterfield.org/zpe_giantism.html

Hope all that helps. 

Am going to spend some time on your site.
It could use a creative refreshment though :)
Long time since I have seen a static html site.

[Helen]

AVZ, our site was hacked last winter and I have not been able to get into it since then to even correct typos people email us about.  A friend of ours is spending untold hours building an entirely new site for us.  Nevertheless, Barry's published and unpublished papers are there along with a lot of other stuff.  He just had a book published (as a monograph adjunct to a science conference (465 pages) which puts together 35 years of research and what he has found.  There is no mention of God in it but if someone actually follows what he is saying in the various sections, you cannot escape the fact that the data leads to an extraordinarily young universe.  I will try to have the book up on Amazon shortly.  It's title is "Cosmology and the Zero Point Energy."  I did the editing -- three times over -- so I know it is lay-readable, although the sections where he does the equations are WAY beyond me!

[AVZ]

Well that promises some eventful evenings for the next few weeks . thanks

[Nevertheless]

25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you will remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.
You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
27     but you are the same, and your years have no end.

Edited to add:

Sorry, meant to comment.

The articles reminded me of these verses. The universe is winding down, growing old, wearing out. The speed of light slowing, plants and animals no longer able to obtain gigantic sizes, etc., etc.

Also, these two paragraphs made me wonder -

Carotenoids are fat-soluble pigments found primarily in plants.  They are critical to the photosynthesis processes.  Carotenoids are anti-oxidants, protecting against not only free radical oxygen atoms, but over-exposure to light as well.  Plants produce carotenoids in response to exposure to light; the more the exposure, the more the carotenoid production occurs up to what appear to be certain limits [23, 24]. There is no reason to doubt that the same protection which is afforded plants today would also have been in operation in times past. In support of this, it has been shown through experiments and research that ATP and NADPH production will increase when more light photons are available.

When we put this information together, we are left with the interesting hypothesis that, in times past, when the speed of light was faster, the increased number of light photons reaching plants was prevented from doing possible damage due to increased carotenoid production.  At the same time, the plants' abilities to store more energy were increased.  As the speed of light decreased with time, plants received fewer photons of light per unit of time and carotenoid production dropped proportionately, as did the ability to store energy via the production of ATP and NADPH.

Could this possibly be a contributing factor in the increase of cancer in humans? Fewer carotenoids produced by plants means fewer carotenoids consumed by humans. Free radicals, destroyed by carotenoids, are supposedly a cause for cancer. Perhaps in recent years the reduced level hit a critical point, which, when combined with other factors in our environment, causes an increase in cancer in the general population.

[Victor08]

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/faq.php

Did humans and dinosaurs live at the same time?
No.

The Flintstones and Alley Oop notwithstanding, the last of the dinosaurs — with the exception of the birds, which are dinosaur descendants — died about 65 million years ago. There is no reputable evidence of human life at the time, or at any time until about 2.5 million years ago, the age of the oldest known fossils in the genus Homo.

There have been periodic claims of human footprints, teeth, etc. being found together with dinosaur tracks or other fossils. None of this fossil evidence is credible; all cases of "human remains" from the time of the dinosaurs have been investigated and found to be either forgeries or misidentifications. For more detailed information, visit 'The Texas Dinosaur/"Man Track" Controversy'.



http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/03/29/creationists-claim-humans-lived-dinosaurs-scientists-disagree/
By Charles Q. Choi / Published March 29, 2011 / LiveScience

Ancient images that creationists claim are evidence of humans living alongside dinosaurs are at best just smeared pictures, scientists find.

At the site of Kachina Bridge in Utah — an immense sandstone formation resembling an arch more than 200 feet (60 meters) high and wide that was formed by the undercutting of a rock wall by flowing water  — prehistoric cultures decorated the  walls with paintings and engravings known as petroglyphs. Among them are what young-earth Earth creationists, who believe all life was created on the same day about 6,000 years ago, have said are depictions of dinosaurs, claiming these images as proof of their beliefs.

Now, closer investigation reveals these ideas are just wishful thinking.

[Helen]

25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you will remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.
You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
27     but you are the same, and your years have no end.

Edited to add:

Sorry, meant to comment.

The articles reminded me of these verses. The universe is winding down, growing old, wearing out. The speed of light slowing, plants and animals no longer able to obtain gigantic sizes, etc., etc.

Also, these two paragraphs made me wonder -

Carotenoids are fat-soluble pigments found primarily in plants.  They are critical to the photosynthesis processes.  Carotenoids are anti-oxidants, protecting against not only free radical oxygen atoms, but over-exposure to light as well.  Plants produce carotenoids in response to exposure to light; the more the exposure, the more the carotenoid production occurs up to what appear to be certain limits [23, 24]. There is no reason to doubt that the same protection which is afforded plants today would also have been in operation in times past. In support of this, it has been shown through experiments and research that ATP and NADPH production will increase when more light photons are available.

When we put this information together, we are left with the interesting hypothesis that, in times past, when the speed of light was faster, the increased number of light photons reaching plants was prevented from doing possible damage due to increased carotenoid production.  At the same time, the plants' abilities to store more energy were increased.  As the speed of light decreased with time, plants received fewer photons of light per unit of time and carotenoid production dropped proportionately, as did the ability to store energy via the production of ATP and NADPH.

Could this possibly be a contributing factor in the increase of cancer in humans? Fewer carotenoids produced by plants means fewer carotenoids consumed by humans. Free radicals, destroyed by carotenoids, are supposedly a cause for cancer. Perhaps in recent years the reduced level hit a critical point, which, when combined with other factors in our environment, causes an increase in cancer in the general population.

Nevertheless, I didn't see that you had asked these questions until today.  I'm sorry.

I don't think the cancer problem is that simple, although I wish it were.  Cancerous cells are mutant cells.  Mutations are caused by a great number of things:  chemicals, too much UV radiation, too much X-ray radiation, radioactivity, genetic susceptibility...there is actually a long list.  We all have cancerous mutations inside of us at any given time and our bodies are incredibly designed to be able to deal with these mutated cells and simply kill them off.  Usually....but yes, the human genome is wearing out.  Our ability to fight off a number of problems is decreasing with time. 

Just to let you know, though, light slowing down is not a product of a running down universe.  It was the natural result of a build-up of something called virtual particles which are the result of something called the Zero Point Energy which built quickly for the first few thousand years. 

When God stretched out the heavens/universe, He invested it with enormous potential energy.  Through the agency of something called "Planck Particle Pairs" that potential energy converted to the kinetic energy of the Zero Point Energy (so called because it pervades the universe at even absolute zero -- it is not heat energy, but electromagnetic wave energy).  As the ZPE built up, its waves crashing into each other formed 'white caps' which for an instant in time behaved like actual particles and could absorb a photon of light before they became pure energy again and the light continued.  The speed of light between virtual particles remained the same as in the beginning, but the more virtual particles a photon of light had to navigate, the longer it took for it to reach its final place of absorption, its destination.  So the slowing down of light was simply a byproduct of the building up of the Zero Point Energy, which increased as God's initial potential energy was converted.

I know that is as clear as mud....but the point is that the speed of light is not an indication of anything wearing out.  We have enough indications without needing that!

[Helen]

Victor, I want you to think about a few things:

1.  The Chinese zodiac has eleven animals we recognize and then....a dragon.  Why put something mythical in?  They didn't.  The dragons were dinosaurs.  They were contemporaneous.

2.  What is with the friezes and pottery from Greece and Rome depicting some of these beasts if they did not know about them?

3.  What is with the epics such as Beowulf which describe one type so vividly?

4.  What is with the American Indian thunderbird?  Or the drawings on the rocks from them?

5.  What is with the reports out of ancient Egypt of giant flying things?

You can't just pooh pooh everything that does not fit with what you have chosen to believe.  That's simply not good science.

[Victor08]

Victor, I want you to think about a few things:

1.  The Chinese zodiac has eleven animals we recognize and then....a dragon.  Why put something mythical in?  They didn't.  The dragons were dinosaurs.  They were contemporaneous.

2.  What is with the friezes and pottery from Greece and Rome depicting some of these beasts if they did not know about them?

3.  What is with the epics such as Beowulf which describe one type so vividly?

4.  What is with the American Indian thunderbird?  Or the drawings on the rocks from them?

5.  What is with the reports out of ancient Egypt of giant flying things?

The Greeks and Romans drew pictures and made statues of their gods; were any of them real?

The Chinese had a fertile imagination and had many gods and goddesses.
Were any of them real?

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/01/where-did-dragons-come-from/
January 23, 2012

Where Did Dragons Come From?

Around the world, people are celebrating the Chinese New Year and the start to the Year of the Dragon. This got us wondering: Where did the myth of the dragon come from in the first place? Scholars say that belief in dragons probably evolved independently in both Europe and China, and perhaps in the Americas and Australia as well. How could this happen? Many have speculated about which real-life animals inspired the first legends. Here's our run-down of the likeliest suspects.

Dinosaurs. Ancient people may have discovered dinosaur fossils and understandably misinterpreted them as the remains of dragons. Chang Qu, a Chinese historian from the 4th century B.C., mislabeled such a fossil in what is now Sichuan Province. Take a look at a fossilized stegosaurus, for example, and you might see why: The giant beasts averaged 30 feet in length, were typically 14 feet tall and were covered in armored plates and spikes for defense.
.
.
.
The Human Brain. The most fascinating explanation involves an unexpected animal: the human. In his book An Instinct for Dragons, anthropologist David E. Jones argues that belief in dragons is so widespread among ancient cultures because evolution embedded an innate fear of predators in the human mind. Just as monkeys have been shown to exhibit a fear of snakes and large cats, Jones hypothesizes that the trait of fearing large predators—such as pythons, birds of prey and elephants—has been selected for in hominids. In more recent times, he argues, these universal fears have been frequently combined in folklore and created the myth of the dragon.

[Helen]

the mythical gods and goddesses had human shapes.  This they had seen.

The Smithsonian article is pure nonsense.  The people knew what they had seen and recorded it.  On cave walls, on pottery, on friezes, in written records.  The Smithsonian has a great deal at stake to make sure evolution is considered real -- their entire reputation and funding depends on it. 

[Nevertheless]

Thanks for the answer, Helen.

[The Barbarian]

A dragon skull was shown in an ancient Greek museum.   This is what it was:


Sivatherium, an extinct giraffe.

A griffin:

(Protoceratops) An early, small ceratopsian dinosaur.   Fossils are found in Central Asia where the Griffin stories originated.

[afaithfulone4u]

Hello. I'm new to this place and this is only my second visit.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/introductions/an-impassive-observer~/

Please read the link above to acquaint yourself with me. Thank you.


I can tell easily that I'm not the only one who has come here with questions. I'm not trying to chip away at any faith or build it up nor am I trying be a unique edgy teenager. I'm no more intelligent than anyone here. I'm merely curious and would actually like and prefer answers that answer my questions but fit them in a Christian light because that is essentially why I came here.


So.... my first question seemed most appropriate for this place. Where do the colossal creatures of the past, the dinosaurs, fit into the timeline of the Bible? If you take a strict Fundamentalist view and perceive the world to be only 6,000 years of age how can the wipeout of dinosaurs be placed roughly 64 million years ago? What about our predictions saying that man and giant reptile could not have co-existed? Do you think the Earth existed long before man and the Bible primarily takes interest in only man's history on Earth since religion is only a foundation of man, and no other animal, so that way dinosaurs could have existed without necessarily contradicting the Bible? Do you think they never existed at all? Then why the bones? A test? How fair of a test is  that, really?



So, yes. I may or may not debate this question depending on the answers I get. If I do debate it will probably only be to gauge more questions any answers bring up. I'm not here to start a fight, though. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are. Thank you.

Gen 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

When ever that was! 

Then/And:
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Then/And:
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


Then/And:
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Then/And:
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
KJV

As we can see in the beginning, when ever the beginning was, God created the heavens and the earth. Then the earth became corrupted by darkness(evil), void(empty of love), chaos(disorderly).