Are the stories of the Blessed Virgin Mary extra-biblical fairy tales?

[matt1]

This thread is designed for those who would like to answer a (in my opinion) most interesting question, "what do you think about the Stories of the Blessed Mother of Jesus or Marian apparitions?" Truth, fiction, or a combination of both? You cant prove either way but you can give your opinion based on personal experience and Historical evidence.

Some examples from Saint Louis De Montfort's book "Secret of the Rosary" are:

The Mother of Jesus allegedly told Saint Dominic that the Rosary is the weapon that the Holy Trinity wishes to use to reform the world, the battering ram in the warfare he was dealing with, and that his preaching it would win the hardest of Hearts. (Secret of the Rosary pg 18 2n Rose)

She allegedly said "when you pray the Rosary the Angels and Saints rejoice, the Holy Trinity delights in it, and I myself am happier than you can possibly imagine" (secret of the Rosary pg 137).

Certain Saints have explained that oceans of graces flooded her soul when the Archangel Gabriel and her cousin Elizabeth, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, gave her that greeting, and when we say our Hail Mary really well it opens into a beautiful rose, gives her the same joy she experienced at the Incarnation, and no other composition of words or poetry could be so delightful to her heart.

Mary said , "never has a person composed something more beautiful than the Hail Mary. No salutation could be dearer to my Heart than those beautiful and dignified words that God the Father addressed to me himself...I want you to know that the angelic salutation (hail Mary) gives me so much joy that no one could ever really explain it" (secret of the Rosary pg 138,139).
(by the way, you can recite the Angelic Salutation without contradicting the Solo-Scriptura Doctrine.  In it's original form, the Angelic Salutation was "Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus" which comes entirely from the Gospel of Luke, therefore it is not a man-made prayer but the word of God.  You cant offend God by reciting his word.)

She told Blessed Alan de la Roche, "through the Rosary hardened sinners of both genders became converted and started to lead a holy life, bemoaning their past sins with genuine contrition...I must not fail to mention the signs and wonders that I have wrought in different lands through the Holy Rosary: I have stopped pestilences and put an end to horrible wars as well as to bloody crimes, and through the Rosary people found the courage to flee temptation (Secret of the Rosary pg 139.)

Jesus gave this urgent message to Berthe Petit: "teach souls to love the Heart of my Mother pierced by the very sorrow which pierced mine. It is hearts that must be changed. This will be accomplished only by the Devotion proclaimed, explained, preached, and recommended everywhere. Recourse to my Mother...it is the last help that I shall give before the end of time." (Secret of the Rosary pg 9)

Not to mention the 15 promises she made to those who recite the Rosary and many other stories, heavenly promises, and prophecies.

Many people dismiss the church approved revelations of the Saints and Mystics as ex-trabiblical fairy tales.

But wait a second! Scientists have examined our Lady of Guadalupe's image and say there is no scientific explanation for how a person could have put the image on the fibers nor is there a scientific explanation for why the cactus fibers of the tilma dont decompose. Could that be a fairy tale?
Not to mention the fact that the apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe lead to the miraculous conversion of the Aztecs which is the greatest conversion story of a single group of people converting to a single Religion in  a short period of time in the History of the World.

There is a medical Bureau at Lourdes that according to Don Sharkley's book "The woman shall conquer" has documented over 4,000 miraculous cures from the miraculous Spring that took place at the site of the appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Bernadette (1858). The scientists and Doctors often have no religious persuasion and do not give the miracle the term "certified" unless they have proof from medical records that the person had an incureable malady, that the cure is complete and instantaneous, and that there can be no scientific or medical explanation for the cure. That is no Fairy Tale!

At Fatima (1917) the Virgin Mary promised a miracle that got media attention and a crowd of 70,000 people, many of them being communists, freemasons, and anti-religious people witnessed the miracle of the sun and even wrote about it in secular newspapers. Not to mention that through Our Lady of Fatima, three lilliterate shepard children knew about and warned the world about the rise of communism, the spreading of Russia's errors throughout the world, and the coming of the Second World War.  Two of the seers mentioned that the Mother of Jesus told them they would go to Heaven soon and shortly after that they got sick and died.  The rest of the prophecies came true as well. That is no work of fiction!

At Rue de Bac France in 1830 she warned about the coming of another bloody French Revolution, and at La salette (1846) she spoke of the coming of the Potato and wheat famines that would strike Europe as a consequence of sin.
In many of the apparitions Mary acts as God's messenger to let people know of a coming chastisement if they dont renounce their sins and turn back to God.

I have personally experienced the Rosary to be the most life-changing remedy I ever got my little unworthy hands on but even without personal testimony I would not dismiss what the many far-fetched stories the Saints tell about Mary and the Rosary based on overwhelming Historical, Scientific, and Medically documented evidence.

She doesn't appear to Catholics only. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Mother of Christ appeared to Coptics, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Protestants, and agnostics. The majority of those who saw her would have been Muslim. The apparition lasted 3 hours and thousands of people from the neighborhood, surrounding areas, and passers-by gathered to the street in front of the Church to see her in an age where cell phones and video cameras were picking up the event. Unlike most apparitions, she was not just visible to a few innocent children but to everyone in the area.

On September 8 1947 she appeared with a Bible in her hand to a Protestant named Bruno Cornacchiola who was planning on killing the Pope, and told him that she was the woman from Revelation chapter 12 and told him to enter the true sheepfold. He dedicated the rest of his life to giving his testimony and trying to convert the Seventh Day Adventists.

   

Only those who choose not to investigate could dismiss these as works of fiction .

What do you think?

[SwordMaster]

This thread is designed for those who would like to answer a (in my opinion) most interesting question, "what do you think about the Stories of the Blessed Mother of Jesus or Marian apparitions?" Truth, fiction, or a combination of both? You cant prove either way but you can give your opinion based on personal experience and Historical evidence.

Yes, we can prove certain things, such as, Mary is dead...presumably she is in heaven, but neither she, nor any other dead human being, comes back and appears to people, and we can (and have) proven this fact by rebuking such apparitions of demonic powers in the name of Jesus by people who are genuinely born again and filled with God's Spirit and authority. Any apparition of a person is not the person they appear to be, but demons operating in one's life to give them false ideologies in order to throw them off course from finding God.

Some examples from Saint Louis De Montfort's book "Secret of the Rosary" are:

The Mother of Jesus allegedly told Saint Dominic that the Rosary is the weapon that the Holy Trinity wishes to use to reform the world, the battering ram in the warfare he was dealing with, and that his preaching it would win the hardest of Hearts. (Secret of the Rosary pg 18 2n Rose)

She allegedly said "when you pray the Rosary the Angels and Saints rejoice, the Holy Trinity delights in it, and I myself am happier than you can possibly imagine" (secret of the Rosary pg 137).

Certain Saints have explained that oceans of graces flooded her soul when the Archangel Gabriel and her cousin Elizabeth, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, gave her that greeting, and when we say our Hail Mary really well it opens into a beautiful rose, gives her the same joy she experienced at the Incarnation, and no other composition of words or poetry could be so delightful to her heart.

Again...Mary is dead...and as Jesus told us through the parable of Lazarus, those who are dead cannot hear those of us on the earth. We are separated from them by eternity, they are in heaven outside of time and space, and we are still upon the earth in time and space. It doesn't matter how many hail mary's one says (as far as this goes) because she cannot hear it, nor can she hear anyone praying the rosary. She is not God.

Mary said , "never has a person composed something more beautiful than the Hail Mary. No salutation could be dearer to my Heart than those beautiful and dignified words that God the Father addressed to me himself...I want you to know that the angelic salutation (hail Mary) gives me so much joy that no one could ever really explain it" (secret of the Rosary pg 138,139).
(Also, you do not contradict the Solo-Scriptura Doctrine by reciting the Angelic Salutation (Hail Mary).  In it's original form the "Hail Mary" came entirely from the Gospel of Luke therefore it is not a man-made prayer but the word of God.  You cant offend God by reciting his word.)

She told Blessed Alan de la Roche, "through the Rosary hardened sinners of both genders became converted and started to lead a holy life, bemoaning their past sins with genuine contrition...I must not fail to mention the signs and wonders that I have wrought in different lands through the Holy Rosary: I have stopped pestilences and put an end to horrible wars as well as to bloody crimes, and through the Rosary people found the courage to flee temptation (Secret of the Rosary pg 139.)

This is demonstration of the demonic origin of such things. de la Roche was how many hundreds of years after Mary died? Again, she does not come back to speak to people, neither does she have anything to do with converting people today. If this is the proposed "power" of the rosary, then it too is demonic in nature. Again, any person who is genuinely born again and filled with the Spirit of God, who is walking in the power and authority of the Covenant, has the power and authority to rebuke demonic spirits in the middle of their operations...and since it has happened a few times, it will happen every time one such follower of God is present amidst such happenings. I am not trying to offend, but if one is being tricked by demons, one needs to be warned about it.

Jesus gave this urgent message to Berthe Petit: "teach souls to love the Heart of my Mother pierced by the very sorrow which pierced mine. It is hearts that must be changed. This will be accomplished only by the Devotion proclaimed, explained, preached, and recommended everywhere. Recourse to my Mother...it is the last help that I shall give before the end of time." (Secret of the Rosary pg 9)

Demonic deception, plain and simple.

Not to mention the 15 promises she made to those who recite the Rosary and many other stories, heavenly promises, and prophecies.

Again, Mary is dead, she can no longer keep any promises than she can make them. If something appeared to someone claiming to be Mary, then it was a demonic spirit, not Mary.

Many people dismiss the church approved revelations of the Saints and Mystics as ex-trabiblical fairy tales.

But wait a second! Scientists have examined our Lady of Guadalupe's image and say there is no scientific explanation for how a person could have put the image on the fibers nor is there a scientific explanation for why the cactus fibers of the tilma dont decompose. Could that be a fairy tale?

No, but demons have also been responsible for statuettes of Indian gods appearing to drink milk offered to them in ritual sacrifices, they also make statues appear to cry blood. Demons are powerful creatures whose sole function in this life is to steer people away from the truth of God by doing such supernatural wonders that make them think they are having some kind of godly experience when they are not.

There is a medical Bureau at Lourdes that according to Don Sharkley's book "The woman shall conquer" has documented over 4,000 miraculous cures from the miraculous Spring that took place at the site of the appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Bernadette. The scientists and Doctors often have no religious persuasion and do not give the miracle the term "certified" unless they have proof from medical records that the person had an incureable malady, that the cure is complete and instantaneous, and that there can be no scientific or medical explanation for the cure. That is no Fairy Tale!

No, it is not. However, if you re-read the Gospels, many times the miracles that Jesus performed upon some who were "ill" in some way, shape, or form...He simply cast the demon out of the person responsible for that disease and the person was "cured." Sometimes illnesses are not naturally occurring, they have demonic origins, and in such cases as you mention all a demon had to do was leave the person's body, taking with it the disease it was accosting them with, and the person would appear to be cured or healed...

At Fatima the Virgin Mary promised a miracle that got media attention and a crowd of 70,000 people, many of them being communists, freemasons, and anti-religious people witnessed and even wrote about it in secular newspapers. Not to mention that through Our Lady of Fatima, three lilliterate shepard children warned the world about the rise of communism, the spreading of Russia's errors throughout the world, and the coming of the Second World War.  Two of the seers said she told them they would go to Heaven soon and shortly after they got sick and died.  The rest of the prophecies came true as well. That is no work of fiction!

Again, true, none of this was fictional work...but then again, none of it was from God, either. Mary is dead, she does not come back and speak to people...anyone who states that Mary has spoken to them did not, in fact, speak to Mary, but were having a demonic experience.

At Rue de Bac France in 1830 she warned about the coming of the French Revolution, and at La salette
she spoke of the coming of the Potato and wheat famines that would strike Europe as a consequence of sin.

I have personally experienced the Rosary to be the most life-changing remedy I ever got my little unworthy hands on but even without personal testimony I would not dismiss what the many far-fetched stories the Saints tell about Mary and the Rosary based on overwhelming Historical, Scientific, and Medically documented evidence.

She doesn't appear to Catholics only. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Mother of Christ appeared to Coptics, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Protestants, and agnostics. The majority of those who saw her would have been Muslim. The apparition lasted 3 hours and thousands of people from the neighborhood, surrounding areas, and passers-by gathered to the street in front of the Church to see her in an age where cell phones and video cameras were picking up the event. Unlike most apparitions, she was not just visible to a few innocent children but to everyone in the area.

On September 8 1947 she appeared with a Bible in her hand to a Protestant named Bruno Cornacchiola who was planning on killing the Pope, and told him that she was the woman from Revelation chapter 12 and told him to enter the true sheepfold. He dedicated the rest of his life to giving his testimony and trying to convert the Seventh Day Adventists.

Only those who choose not to investigate could dismiss these as works of fiction .

What do you think?

I believe, based upon the Scriptures and the evidence by those who have rebuked such apparitions, that all such appearances of Mary are demonic apparitions, and in every case mentioned if there was a truly born again, Spirit filled person walking in the Covenant with God, and had rebuked the apparition, it would have instantly disappeared because it was demonically induced. Not a hallucination, and not a fictional work, but a work produced by demonic forces...just like UFO's and alien abductions.

Blessings!

[matt1]

In Mary's message she tells the people to turn to Jesus and rebukes their sins.  That's interesting that the Devil would want to lead people to virtue.  Do you know Mary has lead more people to Jesus than any Saint, Apostle, Evangelist, or Prophet?  IF that's the Devil he sure likes shooting himself in the foot.
Yes the Devil can appear as an angel of light that is why the Church takes a very long time to investigate and approve of an apparition and many do not get approved by the Church. 

"but neither she, nor any other dead human being, comes back and appears to people, and we can (and have) proven this fact".  Nope the Gospel proves your statement wrong.

During the transfiguration  (Luke 9:18-36) Christ was interacting with Moses and Elijah.  But wasnt Moses dead?  Yes his body died long before but actually he was very alive in Heaven and interacting with Christ.
You said that no dead person has ever come back and appeared to people on earth yet Moses and Elijah appeared to some of the Apostles as well which proves your statement to be incompatible with the Scripture.
 
If it is Biblical that Moses and Elijah were in Heaven and that they were conversing with Christ while he was on earth, what makes it seem impossible that his Mother could be alive in Heaven interacting with him or even appear to people on earth as Moses and Elijah did?
Another word for interacting with Christ is called prayer. 

We are one body in Christ many branches of the same vine.  (John 15:5)
It doesnt seem too far fetched that we are one body with the Angels and Souls in heaven and it wouldnt seem wrong to think that they intercede for us.
But in Christ, we are all part of the Mystical Body. Romans 12:4-5 says: "For as in one body we have many members, and all members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another." Would you dare to say that when a Saint dies, he ceases to be a member of the Body of Christ?
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

So there is Biblical evidence for the communion of Saints but even if there wasnt it still would not make it false because no where in the Bible does it say that something must be in Scripture in order for it to be true.

If you want to believe that Marian apparitions are demonic you are free to do so but the Hail Mary (in it's original form) is still okay for you to recite because it comes from the Gospel and there is never anything wrong with reciting the word of God

[Alan]

  In it's original form, the Angelic Salutation was "Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus" which comes entirely from the Gospel of Luke, therefore it is not a man-made prayer but the word of God.  You cant offend God by reciting his word.)

This was Elizabeth saying this to Mary, although I do believe all of the Bible is the inspired work of God, I see no reason to pray to or worship Biblical characters other than the Father and the Son.

You certainly cannot offend God for reciting His word, but what may offend Him is intentionally exalting those that were not intended to be exalted, but rather simply witness of His miracles.

[matt1]

Well it was the Angel Gabriel and Elizabeth that under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit greeted Mary that way.

Elizabeth also said "who am I that the Mother of my Lord should be visiting me"?  Elizabeth was the Mother of the greatest Old Testament Prophet yet her words show that she felt unworthy to be visited by the Mother of her Lord.

Also, King David made a similar comment "How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Sa 6:9);
The Israelites had great honor for the Ark because God dwelled within the Ark and because it contained the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments, the priestly rod of Moses' brother Aaron, and the heavenly manna that sustained Israel in post-Egyptian wandering.
But Mary carries a greater honor than the Ark of the Old Covenant.  Greater than the carrying heavenly mana, within her she carries the bread of Life.
Greater than the rod of Aaron, she carries the High priest.  Greater than the ten Commandments, she carrries the Word Incarnate. 
So since it was not a sin for the Ancient Isaraelites to have deep reverence and honor for the Ark of the Lord, I dont see anything wrong with honoring the Mother of the Lord who was a living shrine and Mother of the word Incarnate.
The Bible says all generations will call Mary blessed (Luke 1:48.)  That is exactly what the Hail Mary is a blessing.  "Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus" is a blessing to Jesus as well.
 
Also to pray the Hail Mary was never intended to be a form of worship but an honorable greeting, blessing, and act of love.
If I had a Mother who was "blessed among women", favored by God (Luke:130), and all generations were to call her blessed, any compliments given to my Mother would be compliments to me as well and compliments to the God who established that virtue in his highly favored creature.

To recite the Angelic Salutation is to recite the truth.

[chosenone]

This thread is designed for those who would like to answer a (in my opinion) most interesting question, "what do you think about the Stories of the Blessed Mother of Jesus or Marian apparitions?" Truth, fiction, or a combination of both? You cant prove either way but you can give your opinion based on personal experience and Historical evidence.

Yes, we can prove certain things, such as, Mary is dead...presumably she is in heaven, but neither she, nor any other dead human being, comes back and appears to people, and we can (and have) proven this fact by rebuking such apparitions of demonic powers in the name of Jesus by people who are genuinely born again and filled with God's Spirit and authority. Any apparition of a person is not the person they appear to be, but demons operating in one's life to give them false ideologies in order to throw them off course from finding God.

Some examples from Saint Louis De Montfort's book "Secret of the Rosary" are:

The Mother of Jesus allegedly told Saint Dominic that the Rosary is the weapon that the Holy Trinity wishes to use to reform the world, the battering ram in the warfare he was dealing with, and that his preaching it would win the hardest of Hearts. (Secret of the Rosary pg 18 2n Rose)

She allegedly said "when you pray the Rosary the Angels and Saints rejoice, the Holy Trinity delights in it, and I myself am happier than you can possibly imagine" (secret of the Rosary pg 137).

Certain Saints have explained that oceans of graces flooded her soul when the Archangel Gabriel and her cousin Elizabeth, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, gave her that greeting, and when we say our Hail Mary really well it opens into a beautiful rose, gives her the same joy she experienced at the Incarnation, and no other composition of words or poetry could be so delightful to her heart.

Again...Mary is dead...and as Jesus told us through the parable of Lazarus, those who are dead cannot hear those of us on the earth. We are separated from them by eternity, they are in heaven outside of time and space, and we are still upon the earth in time and space. It doesn't matter how many hail mary's one says (as far as this goes) because she cannot hear it, nor can she hear anyone praying the rosary. She is not God.

Mary said , "never has a person composed something more beautiful than the Hail Mary. No salutation could be dearer to my Heart than those beautiful and dignified words that God the Father addressed to me himself...I want you to know that the angelic salutation (hail Mary) gives me so much joy that no one could ever really explain it" (secret of the Rosary pg 138,139).
(Also, you do not contradict the Solo-Scriptura Doctrine by reciting the Angelic Salutation (Hail Mary).  In it's original form the "Hail Mary" came entirely from the Gospel of Luke therefore it is not a man-made prayer but the word of God.  You cant offend God by reciting his word.)

She told Blessed Alan de la Roche, "through the Rosary hardened sinners of both genders became converted and started to lead a holy life, bemoaning their past sins with genuine contrition...I must not fail to mention the signs and wonders that I have wrought in different lands through the Holy Rosary: I have stopped pestilences and put an end to horrible wars as well as to bloody crimes, and through the Rosary people found the courage to flee temptation (Secret of the Rosary pg 139.)

This is demonstration of the demonic origin of such things. de la Roche was how many hundreds of years after Mary died? Again, she does not come back to speak to people, neither does she have anything to do with converting people today. If this is the proposed "power" of the rosary, then it too is demonic in nature. Again, any person who is genuinely born again and filled with the Spirit of God, who is walking in the power and authority of the Covenant, has the power and authority to rebuke demonic spirits in the middle of their operations...and since it has happened a few times, it will happen every time one such follower of God is present amidst such happenings. I am not trying to offend, but if one is being tricked by demons, one needs to be warned about it.

Jesus gave this urgent message to Berthe Petit: "teach souls to love the Heart of my Mother pierced by the very sorrow which pierced mine. It is hearts that must be changed. This will be accomplished only by the Devotion proclaimed, explained, preached, and recommended everywhere. Recourse to my Mother...it is the last help that I shall give before the end of time." (Secret of the Rosary pg 9)

Demonic deception, plain and simple.

Not to mention the 15 promises she made to those who recite the Rosary and many other stories, heavenly promises, and prophecies.

Again, Mary is dead, she can no longer keep any promises than she can make them. If something appeared to someone claiming to be Mary, then it was a demonic spirit, not Mary.

Many people dismiss the church approved revelations of the Saints and Mystics as ex-trabiblical fairy tales.

But wait a second! Scientists have examined our Lady of Guadalupe's image and say there is no scientific explanation for how a person could have put the image on the fibers nor is there a scientific explanation for why the cactus fibers of the tilma dont decompose. Could that be a fairy tale?

No, but demons have also been responsible for statuettes of Indian gods appearing to drink milk offered to them in ritual sacrifices, they also make statues appear to cry blood. Demons are powerful creatures whose sole function in this life is to steer people away from the truth of God by doing such supernatural wonders that make them think they are having some kind of godly experience when they are not.

There is a medical Bureau at Lourdes that according to Don Sharkley's book "The woman shall conquer" has documented over 4,000 miraculous cures from the miraculous Spring that took place at the site of the appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Bernadette. The scientists and Doctors often have no religious persuasion and do not give the miracle the term "certified" unless they have proof from medical records that the person had an incureable malady, that the cure is complete and instantaneous, and that there can be no scientific or medical explanation for the cure. That is no Fairy Tale!

No, it is not. However, if you re-read the Gospels, many times the miracles that Jesus performed upon some who were "ill" in some way, shape, or form...He simply cast the demon out of the person responsible for that disease and the person was "cured." Sometimes illnesses are not naturally occurring, they have demonic origins, and in such cases as you mention all a demon had to do was leave the person's body, taking with it the disease it was accosting them with, and the person would appear to be cured or healed...

At Fatima the Virgin Mary promised a miracle that got media attention and a crowd of 70,000 people, many of them being communists, freemasons, and anti-religious people witnessed and even wrote about it in secular newspapers. Not to mention that through Our Lady of Fatima, three lilliterate shepard children warned the world about the rise of communism, the spreading of Russia's errors throughout the world, and the coming of the Second World War.  Two of the seers said she told them they would go to Heaven soon and shortly after they got sick and died.  The rest of the prophecies came true as well. That is no work of fiction!

Again, true, none of this was fictional work...but then again, none of it was from God, either. Mary is dead, she does not come back and speak to people...anyone who states that Mary has spoken to them did not, in fact, speak to Mary, but were having a demonic experience.

At Rue de Bac France in 1830 she warned about the coming of the French Revolution, and at La salette
she spoke of the coming of the Potato and wheat famines that would strike Europe as a consequence of sin.

I have personally experienced the Rosary to be the most life-changing remedy I ever got my little unworthy hands on but even without personal testimony I would not dismiss what the many far-fetched stories the Saints tell about Mary and the Rosary based on overwhelming Historical, Scientific, and Medically documented evidence.

She doesn't appear to Catholics only. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Mother of Christ appeared to Coptics, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Protestants, and agnostics. The majority of those who saw her would have been Muslim. The apparition lasted 3 hours and thousands of people from the neighborhood, surrounding areas, and passers-by gathered to the street in front of the Church to see her in an age where cell phones and video cameras were picking up the event. Unlike most apparitions, she was not just visible to a few innocent children but to everyone in the area.

On September 8 1947 she appeared with a Bible in her hand to a Protestant named Bruno Cornacchiola who was planning on killing the Pope, and told him that she was the woman from Revelation chapter 12 and told him to enter the true sheepfold. He dedicated the rest of his life to giving his testimony and trying to convert the Seventh Day Adventists.

Only those who choose not to investigate could dismiss these as works of fiction .

What do you think?

I believe, based upon the Scriptures and the evidence by those who have rebuked such apparitions, that all such appearances of Mary are demonic apparitions, and in every case mentioned if there was a truly born again, Spirit filled person walking in the Covenant with God, and had rebuked the apparition, it would have instantly disappeared because it was demonically induced. Not a hallucination, and not a fictional work, but a work produced by demonic forces...just like UFO's and alien abductions.

Blessings!

  yes I agree totally. If ever an entity appeared to me saying he/she/it was Mary, I would know immediatly that it was demonic and I would also dispute that Mary has led anyone to true faith in Jesus.

[neophyte]

If you look into your bibles, you would see (where Mary said, "Do as he says").  When is the last time you called Mary blessed as the bible states.

[SwordMaster]

I find it very interesting that someone took out my entire post and didn't even contact me to state the reason.

If I broke a rule, by all means tell me...but in case someone was offended...people are offended all the time by the truth.

Otherwise...what's going on here in this forum?

[matt1]

I have a question for those who think Marian apparitions and the miracles linked to them are demonic.
If a person goes from being a complete athiest to honoring the Virgin Mary as a result of a Marian apparition isnt that a big step in the right direction?

Each decade of the Rosary contains a meditation (mystery) on Scripture. 18 of the 20 Sacred mysteries that a person meditates on while reciting the Rosary comes from the Gospels. The joyful mysteries, Luminous mysteries, and sorrowful mysteries, and glorious mysteries contain much meditations on the birth, childhood, life, ministry, passion, death, ressurection, and ascenscion of Christ into Heaven.
That is what a person praying the Rosary is to be meditating on. The Rosary also contains the Lord's prayer, and get this, the prayer "Hail mary full of grace the Lord is with thee blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus" is a quote taken directly from the Gosepel of Luke. Those words were written by GOD!

You cant offend God by reciting a scripture verse. So, if a total atheist begins to pray the Rosary as a result of a Marian apparition and public miracle like Fatima, that is a huge step in the right direction.

The person now believes in God, he/she is reciting the word of God, he/she is reciting the Lord's prayer, the doxology, the apostles creed and he/she is meditating on mysteries from the Gospel. Wouldnt you admit that this person is a step closer to being an Evangelical than they were as a complete agnostic?

Isnt that a big step in the right direction? If a person goes from being an athiest to honoring the Mother of Jesus, isnt there alot of potential for good coming from that?
For instance, the Mother of Jesus was favored by God (luke 1:30, luke 1:48) she was humble, meek, full of grace, modest, pure, faithful, charitable, and a servant of God and Mother of our Redeemer.
All but one of the Apostles fled like cowards when it was time for Christ to be Crucified yet his mother was faithful to the end and present at the foot of the cross which in my opinion shows that she was more faithful to him.

So if a person loves and honors the Mother of Jesus, they honor a virtuous woman whom Jesus honored as well in obediance to the commandment "honor your Father and Mother". They may want to imitate her good example of humility, meekness, modesty, purity, faith, hope, love, and like her, be a servant of God.
So if a total unbeliever begins to honor the Mother of Jesus, to say the least, they have a much better role model than many people in our current culture.

Because the Rosary contains many meditations on the Gospel it can and does lead many unbelievers to Jesus and virtuous living.

Since approved Marian apparitions tell people to humble themselves, turn away from pride, lust, anger, greed, jealousy, sloth, gluttony, and stop offending God, that too, can and does inspire people to more virtuous living.

Even if it doesnt add up with your theology, you cant deny that it could be a huge step in the right direction and much good fruit could become of it.

If you had a child who was an unbeliever and their role model was a sleezy movie star and suddenly your child took down the posters of that Celeb and put up an image of the Virgin Mary and took her as a role model, wouldnt that be encouraging that the child wants to be like the Mother of Jesus, a lowly faithful servant of God?

[SwordMaster]

I have a question for those who think Marian apparitions and the miracles linked to them are demonic.
If a person goes from being a complete athiest to honoring the Virgin Mary as a result of a Marian apparition isnt that a big step in the right direction?

It would seem to be on the outside, but honoring a dead person does not bring a person any closer to God, especially when the reason for honoring her came from a demonic source. It was NOT Mary, it was a demonic apparition depicting Mary, therefore it was demonic. Demons don't bring people closer to God (in and of themselves), their whole job is to DECEIVE people into thinking they are right with God so that they still end up in hell. What one believes is of no consequence if what they believe is a lie, and demonic deception is a lie.

Each decade of the Rosary contains a meditation (mystery) on Scripture. 18 of the 20 Sacred mysteries that a person meditates on while reciting the Rosary comes from the Gospels. The joyful mysteries, Luminous mysteries, and sorrowful mysteries, and glorious mysteries contain much meditations on the birth, childhood, life, ministry, passion, death, ressurection, and ascenscion of Christ into Heaven.
That is what a person praying the Rosary is to be meditating on. The Rosary also contains the Lord's prayer, and get this, the prayer "Hail mary full of grace the Lord is with thee blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus" is a quote taken directly from the Gosepel of Luke. Those words were written by GOD!

You cant offend God by reciting a scripture verse. So, if a total atheist begins to pray the Rosary as a result of a Marian apparition and public miracle like Fatima, that is a huge step in the right direction.

Again, it would seem so...the unbeliever is now a believer in God, however, the demons also believe, and tremble. Believing alone is not enough...Jehovah's witnesses believe in God too, but because they are lied to through demonic deception of the Watchtower Society, and told that Jesus is not God in the flesh, they do not have a key part of truth that saves them. Jesus said that if one does not believe that He is God in the flesh, one cannot be saved, they will die in their sins. This is akin to what we speak of here in this thread...deception so subtle that it still keeps a person from attaining the kind of relationship with God that takes them into eternal life.

The person now believes in God, he/she is reciting the word of God, he/she is reciting the Lord's prayer, the doxology, the apostles creed and he/she is meditating on mysteries from the Gospel. Wouldnt you admit that this person is a step closer to being an Evangelical than they were as a complete agnostic?

Isnt that a big step in the right direction? If a person goes from being an athiest to honoring the Mother of Jesus, isnt there alot of potential for good coming from that?

Only if there is one near that person who does know the truth and can accurately guide that person into truth that brings him to God...but alone, this truth would only take the person into tip-towing around the truth that saves...that is what deception does...it gives a person just enough truth to make him think he is right with God and on his way to heaven, when in fact, he has been given enough truth to only make such a person religious. Religion is man's number one enemy...God hates religion, because what He offers, and what we must come to understand, is that coming to God on His terms is entering into a living relationship with Him through His covenant. Its not religion, its relationship, and as long as the demonic can keep a person believing they are in relationship with God when they are not, then they are doing their job.

For instance, the Mother of Jesus was favored by God (luke 1:30, luke 1:48) she was humble, meek, full of grace, modest, pure, faithful, charitable, and a servant of God and Mother of our Redeemer.
All but one of the Apostles fled like cowards when it was time for Christ to be Crucified yet his mother was faithful to the end and present at the foot of the cross which in my opinion shows that she was more faithful to him.

If I may...Mary was not in the garden when Jesus was arrested...thats why she didn't flee. And according to Scripture, ALL of the disciples ran away, even Peter ran . . . after cutting off Malchus' ear.

So if a person loves and honors the Mother of Jesus, they honor a virtuous woman whom Jesus honored as well in obediance to the commandment "honor your Father and Mother".

There is nothing wrong with loving your departed loved-ones...but to "love" someone whom you never met...that is akin to idolatry. That is akin to ancestor worship, and that is forbidden...even though she is not our ancestor, it is the same thing.

They may want to imitate her good example of humility, meekness, modesty, purity, faith, hope, love, and like her, be a servant of God.
So if a total unbeliever begins to honor the Mother of Jesus, to say the least, they have a much better role model than many people in our current culture.
Because the Rosary contains many meditations on the Gospel it can and does lead many unbelievers to Jesus and virtuous living.

Yes, i agree that it can...yet simply believing doesn't take one into the covenant relationship with God...living a virtuous life outside of the covenant does not give one eternal life.

Since approved Marian apparitions tell people to humble themselves, turn away from pride, lust, anger, greed, jealousy, sloth, gluttony, and stop offending God, that too, can and does inspire people to more virtuous living. Even if it doesnt add up with your theology, you cant deny that it could be a huge step in the right direction and much good fruit could become of it.

Yes, it could, but only if the right person was there to help direct such a new believer into the truth of the situation, and point out that the apparition they beheld was demonic deception.

If you had a child who was an unbeliever and their role model was a sleezy movie star and suddenly your child took down the posters of that Celeb and put up an image of the Virgin Mary and took her as a role model, wouldnt that be encouraging that the child wants to be like the Mother of Jesus, a lowly faithful servant of God?

I would be highly encouraged that she now believed in God because she experienced the supernatural...but as I stated before...then I would have to sit down with her and explain what she actually experienced, show her that such demonic deception does prove the supernatural and the existence of God, and then channel her new-found faith towards God rather than allowing her to keep believing that what she saw was actually Mary.

Any demonic activity that gives evidence of the supernatural and God can be of great spiritual help in leading people to God in truth.

Blessings...and I hope that I did not offend.

[neophyte]

SwordMaster, you wrote: "...and I hope that I did not offend."
I'd say you have probably offended our Lord Jesus more than anybody else.

[chosenone]

SwordMaster, you wrote: "...and I hope that I did not offend."
I'd say you have probably offended our Lord Jesus more than anybody else.

Jesus isnt offended when error and heresies are exposed.

[neophyte]

chosenone, tell me ,where is there a heresy committed in this situation ?Jesus loved His Mother and Father . Jesus followed and obeyed all of the Ten Commandments which include the Fourth Commandment of ;'your father and mother'. If as Christians we acknowledge Jesus as our Spiritual Brother why can't we also acknowledge the blessed virgin Mary as our spiritual mother?
A woman is a man's mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).
Since Mary is Jesus' mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of Jesus, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than Jesus or the source of her Son's divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of Jesus in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion,many Protestants often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ's human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

[chosenone]

Nearly all of the RC teaching about Mary is false and untrue.We are actually told little about her in the Bible, and even that has been changed(such as the false teaching that she didnt have sex with her own husband and have more children)

[WILDJC]

Let's put ourselves in Mary's shoes. Let us also put ourselves in the Apostles shoes. Christ preached humility and lowliness in heart. Do you honestly think that Mary or any of the elder Saints would want to be an apparition to those on the earth, and steal the spotlight from our Lord Jesus Christ?  You cannot preach the gospel through the use of such apparitions, because it exalts a dead person, themselves and not Jesus. Think of John the Baptist.  I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: In the course of his humility, do you think he would advocate the Mary sightings that occur today?

Visions, trances and dreams are tools which the Good Lord will use to spread a message if He so chooses. These can be tested by scriptural reference and through the love and the abundance of the gifts from the Holy Spirit.

I am sympathetic to Mary because the evil of this world has branded her unfairly, turning her into a celebrity instead of letting her RIP on the bosom of her Son.


Love,


John

[neophyte]

John, you wrote:"Visions, trances and dreams are tools which the Good Lord will use to spread a message if He so chooses."
Enoch and Elijah were redeemed by Jesus but entered heaven early. They were exceptions. God can do that! Why not His own Mother, as all early Christians believed? They are not dead people,as you claim, they are more alive than you and me.Our souls never die only our physical bodies.
You say Jesus preached humility and lowliness in heart, don't you then suppose that Jesus also practiced that 'which He preached' ? In the course of His humility, do you think that Jesus would be jealous of His mother?

[matt1]

Well, I dont think you can dishonor a son by honoring his Mother. You can dishonor a son by insulting his Mother. The Scriptures say all generations shall call Mary blessed.
Also Elizabeth said "who am I that the Mother of My Lord should be visiting me". That clearly shows that she was honored and felt unworthy to be visited by the Mother of her Lord. That statement along with her statement blessed are you among women," and "Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"(Luke 1:45) goes to show that she did not just see her cousin as another person like herself.
Elizabeth was the Mother of the greatest prophet and yet she felt unworthy to be visited by the Mother of her Lord.

Does walking through and admiring something beautiful that God has made like the Forest, Desert, mountains, ocean etc. draw you away from God or raise your mind and Heart to the glory of the Creator? Also if you admire the Saints and prophets that did the will of God does that draw a person away from God or inspire the person to serve God and do something meaningful with their life? Yes the worship of anyone other than God is idolatry but to respect, honor, and be inspired by the people of God is not offensive to God. Christ told his apostles "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me". Luke 10:16

I know that a Marian apparition can lead a person to Jesus. I was a complete unbeliever and hostile to Religion and through reading about the appearance and miracle of Fatima I realized that Hell exists and realized that this life is short and the only worthwhile and meaningful thing to do is the will of God. I began praying the Rosary and fasting which lead me to virtuous living, wisdom, and the study of the word of God and to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I thank God for what took place at Fatima Portugal. It just so happens that the miracle of Fatima, the edifying lives of the seers, and the prophecies that followed lead me to pray.  That prayer lead to a horror for sin and a renouncing of worldly vanities.  That wisdom lead me to study the word of God and a personal relationship with my Lord and Savior. 

Many people are lead to Jesus through someone else.  It just so happens that I and many others were lead to Jesus through the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Thank you God!

[SwordMaster]

SwordMaster, you wrote: "...and I hope that I did not offend."
I'd say you have probably offended our Lord Jesus more than anybody else.

No, according to Scripture, I certainly did not.

[SwordMaster]

chosenone, tell me ,where is there a heresy committed in this situation ?Jesus loved His Mother and Father . Jesus followed and obeyed all of the Ten Commandments which include the Fourth Commandment of ;'your father and mother'. If as Christians we acknowledge Jesus as our Spiritual Brother why can't we also acknowledge the blessed virgin Mary as our spiritual mother?

Because there is no such thing as a "spiritual mother." There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit...there is no "God the virgin Mary." What's more, she was no longer a virgin after she bore Jesus...He had at least 7 half-brothers that we know of and at least 2 half-sister...she DEFINITELY was not a virgin after bearing Jesus.

A woman is a man's mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Actually, that is a spurious comment, we have absolutely no evidence how much genetic material Mary contributed to in Jesus' make-up, and you have absolutely no idea how much genetic material was contributed by God in the fertilization of the egg that came to be the body of Jesus.

Since Mary is Jesus' mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God:

And THAT is where Catholic doctrine from the beginning has sinned. God does not have a mother, He has always existed, something our finite minds cannot wrap around. Jesus was not the fullness of God ALONE...if He was, then He would not be fully God AND fully human, which He would have to be in order for God's Plan of Redemption to work. Mary is NOT the mother of God, she was only a chosen vessel of God picked out for bearing the physical body of the Messiah. What's more, she is dead...D...E...A...D...dead. She is not sitting at the right hand (or even the left hand) of God in advocacy for believers, she most assuredly is in heaven, but according to Scripture, we don't have any memory of this life, all we will recognize will be the relationships that we have with people, and we will recognize people that we never saw before who are believers. The mother of Jesus is NOT more special than anyone else who comes to God through Christ, and you will not find that so anywhere in Scripture. This is a false teaching made up by the Catholic church during the dark ages of church history, in order to maintain more control over its subjects. You should read the history of the Catholic church that is not written by the Catholic church, so see the horrors that it is responsible for.


If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Your logic would be sound if it wasn't for the fact that Jesus is not 100% JUST God, He isn't, He is 100% God AND 100% human. Humans have a mother, God does not, and to state that He does is to throw coherent logic out the window for the sake of one's biased belief system that is NOT based upon the Scriptures alone. That, friend, is religion...and God hates religion.


Although Mary is the Mother of Jesus, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than Jesus or the source of her Son's divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of Jesus in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

So, you are saying, literally, that Mary gave birth to God, who was formed as the spiritual aspect of Jesus' physical body??? Again, you are believing in fairy tales. The wholeness of Yahweh God was not EVER completely and only engulfed in the body of Christ, which is what you are testifying to. You have believed falsities, sir. Yes, Jesus was "God in the flesh," but not simply 100% God ONLY...otherwise He could not die for the sins of mankind that didn't stand a chance of ever tempting Him. He was fully man and fully God, otherwise He could never suffer temptation and be the propitiatory sacrifice representing all humanity. 

To avoid this conclusion,many Protestants often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ's human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

Wrong...it is not Nestorianism, because what I am stating, in fact, is that Jesus Christ was fully God AND fully human...however, when you say fully God you are intending upon the meaning that God was no longer in heaven, but that His fullness was incubating within Mary's womb...and that is heresy. To say that the all-powerful, the incorruptible, the immortal God has a finite, created, weak, mother of flesh, is to twist the Scriptures to the point of heresy. To the point, you are involved in Mary worship, and that is a great sin, for God will not give His glory or praise or worship to any else.

[SwordMaster]

John, you wrote:"Visions, trances and dreams are tools which the Good Lord will use to spread a message if He so chooses."
Enoch and Elijah were redeemed by Jesus but entered heaven early.

You have done great damage to scholarly works here, and to theology. Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven by God in order to be the two witnesses in the Book of Revelation, they were NOT redeemed by Jesus before He even came into existence. That is theological error.

They were exceptions. God can do that! Why not His own Mother, as all early Christians believed?

This also is most soundly untrue. The early church did not venerate mary, it was not until sometime after 300 AD that Mary worship was established...and that we during the dark ages of the church, when what we call the Catholic church began to develop.

They are not dead people,as you claim, they are more alive than you and me.Our souls never die only our physical bodies.
You say Jesus preached humility and lowliness in heart, don't you then suppose that Jesus also practiced that 'which He preached' ? In the course of His humility, do you think that Jesus would be jealous of His mother?

[SwordMaster]

Well, I dont think you can dishonor a son by honoring his Mother. You can dishonor a son by insulting his Mother. The Scriptures say all generations shall call Mary blessed.
Also Elizabeth said "who am I that the Mother of My Lord should be visiting me". That clearly shows that she was honored and felt unworthy to be visited by the Mother of her Lord. That statement along with her statement blessed are you among women," and "Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"(Luke 1:45) goes to show that she did not just see her cousin as another person like herself.
Elizabeth was the Mother of the greatest prophet and yet she felt unworthy to be visited by the Mother of her Lord.

Does walking through and admiring something beautiful that God has made like the Forest, Desert, mountains, ocean etc. draw you away from God or raise your mind and Heart to the glory of the Creator? Also if you admire the Saints and prophets that did the will of God does that draw a person away from God or inspire the person to serve God and do something meaningful with their life? Yes the worship of anyone other than God is idolatry but to respect, honor, and be inspired by the people of God is not offensive to God. Christ told his apostles "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me". Luke 10:16

I know that a Marian apparition can lead a person to Jesus. I was a complete unbeliever and hostile to Religion and through reading about the appearance and miracle of Fatima I realized that Hell exists and realized that this life is short and the only worthwhile and meaningful thing to do is the will of God. I began praying the Rosary and fasting which lead me to virtuous living, wisdom, and the study of the word of God and to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I thank God for what took place at Fatima Portugal. It just so happens that the miracle of Fatima, the edifying lives of the seers, and the prophecies that followed lead me to pray.  That prayer lead to a horror for sin and a renouncing of worldly vanities.  That wisdom lead me to study the word of God and a personal relationship with my Lord and Savior. 

Are you really in relationship with God through Christ? Have you received water baptism (not sprinkling as an infant) and entered into the Covenant with God? Are you maintaining your participation in the Covenant in order to remain in Covenant relationship with God? If not, then you do not have a relationship WITH Him...only a religious relationship TO Him...and that does not take one into heaven.

Many people are lead to Jesus through someone else.  It just so happens that I and many others were lead to Jesus through the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Thank you God!

Yes...as I stated before, many people have been led to God through demonic workings, and this would count as one of them...but the constant mistake and error is in thinking that such apparitions are indeed Mary the mother of Jesus. They are not...dead people do not come back to give us messages, the only ones who do that is either Christ Himself, or one of His angels...or demons posing as dead people. THAT'S IT...no matter what one chooses to believe.

One last word...believing that a demonic apparition is not a demonic apparition does not give one a basis for factual faith in Christ for salvation. It may spur belief of God in a person's heart, as it did yours, but believing a lie is just believing a lie, and believing a lie does not help one's relationship with God.

[matt1]

Swordmaster,

From your words in multiple posts it would indicate that you believe a person who spends their life practicing the Catholic Faith cannot be saved.
That isnt according to the Bible but according to your interpretation of the Bible.  You take it upon yourself to decide what the Scriptures are saying and when they are to be taken literally, when they are symbolic, when it is hyberbole, when it is parable, when the meaning needs to be examined in regard to the langauage, circumstances and the culture of the time.
I guarantee I can show you Scripture that you twist. 

For more than 1500 years the Catholic Church was the only Church that believed that the Bible was the word of God, the only Church that was preaching the Gospel, the only Church that taught that Jesus is Lord, the Church that defended the Divinity of Christ when that doctrine was under attack by Arians and other Heretics, the Church that put together the Canon of the New testament and declared that it is the word of God, the only Church that dates back to the time of Christ, the only Church that doesnt have a human founder, and the largest and most influencial body of Christianity.

It would seem that what you are saying by declaring that Catholicism leads people to eternal destruction, you are saying that Christ abandoned his Church, was not faithful to what he promised, and that all Christians for more than 1500 years belonged to and were lead astray by a Satanic Religion.
Would God have allowed such a thing?

I say that because for more than 1400 years there was no printing press and with no printing press there was no possibility for even 1% of Christians to own their own Bible, meaning it was impossible for there to be any Solo-Scriptura Doctrine.
People relied on the Church.  It isnt wise to adore your Bible and despise the Church that gave it to you. 
It is pride that leads you to believe that your interpretation of Scripture gives you the authority to condemn the Church that put together the New Testament Canon.

Not to mention the Solo-Scriptura Doctrine is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles, incompatible with History, Incompatible with the writtings and belief's of early Christians, and incompatible with common sense.
However, im not saying that your Solo-Scriptura Doctrine is leading you to eternal destruction but it would seem that is what you are saying about my faith.
I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, i invoke his assistance often throughout the day (aside from Christ I can do nothing), I offer him all my prayers, actions, and sufferings, I have asked him into my heart, I believe the Scriptures are the word of God, I believe and pray to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and I believe that his (Christs) suffering, sacrifice, death and his precious blood atoned for my sins and purchased my redemption.
What part of that is unchristian?  The Apostles Creed is a summary of the most important articles of the Catholic Faith that every Catholic is bound to believe.
Tell me, what in the Apostles Creed do you object to as not being Christian?

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ.  If not, you tell me who it was founded by.  And dont say Constantine, that is easily refuteable.

[SwordMaster]

Swordmaster,

From your words in multiple posts it would indicate that you believe a person who spends their life practicing the Catholic Faith cannot be saved.

Not necessarily...I know some "Chrarismatic Catholics" that I definitely believe are in relationship with God...but they do not remain "Catholics" for very long, they certainly come to the realization that such subjects as we are discussing are demonic and not Mary at all. In point...they do not remain catholic for very long once they have come to God on His terms rather than on standard catholic-taught terms. The two are mutually incompatible.

That isnt according to the Bible but according to your interpretation of the Bible.  You take it upon yourself to decide what the Scriptures are saying and when they are to be taken literally, when they are symbolic, when it is hyberbole, when it is parable, when the meaning needs to be examined in regard to the langauage, circumstances and the culture of the time.
I guarantee I can show you Scripture that you twist. 

I can guarantee that you cannot. I can guarantee that I do not take it upon myself to decide whether or not a passage is to be taken literally or otherwise, I leave that to God and the context of the passage in question. And, by the way, this is a strange way to attack me...so, you cannot stand against what I have spoken in truth so you turn to interpretation of Scripture in trying to throw me off??? Really...you have not even used one passage of Scripture in your posts so far (none that I have seen, anyway). We are not speaking of other posts in other threads, we are speaking of this thread.

For more than 1500 years the Catholic Church was the only Church that believed that the Bible was the word of God, the only Church that was preaching the Gospel, the only Church that taught that Jesus is Lord, the Church that defended the Divinity of Christ when that doctrine was under attack by Arians and other Heretics, the Church that put together the Canon of the New testament and declared that it is the word of God, the only Church that dates back to the time of Christ, the only Church that doesnt have a human founder, and the largest and most influencial body of Christianity.

I don't know where you get your history lessons from, but I can guarantee you that what you are saying is only partly correct stuffed with lies. The catholic church was not in existence until after 313 AD when Constantine provided the right kind of atmosphere for it to thrive, until then, we had the untarnished Gospel taught by men like Polycarp and other direct descendants of the Apostles (spiritually, obviously, not physically). And the whole reason why the Reformation occurred was because sane individuals who finally got the guts to fight against the corrupt doctrines of the "church" at that time - the church of the Dark Ages - stood up and began the long road to bringing back the purity of the Scriptures and Scriptural doctrine.


It would seem that what you are saying by declaring that Catholicism leads people to eternal destruction, you are saying that Christ abandoned his Church, was not faithful to what he promised, and that all Christians for more than 1500 years belonged to and were lead astray by a Satanic Religion.
Would God have allowed such a thing?

You forget that we are in a spiritual war. You forget that God is not the god of this world, satan is, and because God will not force Himself upon men for any reason, He can only work through those who come to the point of desiring God more than their own lives. It is not a matter of God allowing anything (that's just like asking me, "Do you believe that God would allow abortion?"), it is a matter of what godly men allow to take place - it is through us that God co-labors with to accomplish His work upon the earth in these last days, and if there is no godly man about, then He has no one to use until one does come along.

I say that because for more than 1400 years there was no printing press and with no printing press there was no possibility for even 1% of Christians to own their own Bible, meaning it was impossible for there to be any Solo-Scriptura Doctrine.
People relied on the Church.  It isnt wise to adore your Bible and despise the Church that gave it to you. 
It is pride that leads you to believe that your interpretation of Scripture gives you the authority to condemn the Church that put together the New Testament Canon.

I see that you are emotionally charged here, because I did not condemn the catholic church in any of my posts. I condemned the belief that Marion apparitions are not factual, that they are not appearances of Mary, but demonic deceptions. Now, if the catholic church, in all its earthly wisdom, ratifies such apparitions as the real thing, then I suppose I can see why you are stating such things. I do not condemn Marion apparitions based upon any authority that I have, I condemn them based upon the Word of God and personal experiences with demonic activity in the past.


Not to mention the Solo-Scriptura Doctrine is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles, incompatible with History, Incompatible with the writtings and belief's of early Christians, and incompatible with common sense.

I agree, Sola Scriptura has some flaws, and that is why I do not hold to it. More accurately, I hold to Scripture and history, and other variables that give us insight into Scriptural themes. For example, as one pointed out in another thread, Scripture says very little about how covenants work, so we have to go outside of Scripture to discover the kind and workings of covenants, because if we do not, then we cannot know or understand how the New Covenant works...and if we do not understand how the New Covenant works, then one cannot know how to come to God on His terms...just like the Jews didn't...

Romans 9:30-33 ESV
30   What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
31   but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
32   Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33   as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

I am not here to push works vs faith, but the Jews failed to come to God on the new terms that He established in the New Covenant, they were still trying to get to God based upon Old Covenant workings, so they failed...


However, im not saying that your Solo-Scriptura Doctrine is leading you to eternal destruction but it would seem that is what you are saying about my faith.

Once again, I did not openly condemn the catholic church, I openly condemned the belief that Marion apparitions are in fact appearances of Mary, they are not, they are demonic, and that is based upon solid Scripture, not hear-say. If it is your belief that Marion apparitions are in fact appearances of Mary, then yes, I am saying that your faith is misplaced, and I say that on the basis of solid Scriptural authority.

I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, i invoke his assistance often throughout the day (aside from Christ I can do nothing), I offer him all my prayers, actions, and sufferings, I have asked him into my heart, I believe the Scriptures are the word of God, I believe and pray to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and I believe that his (Christs) suffering, sacrifice, death and his precious blood atoned for my sins and purchased my redemption. What part of that is unchristian? 

None of it sounds unchristian, and i cannot judge you, but I can judge what you believe. Only God knows you, so only He can rightly judge you...or me...and it is very difficult to near impossible to know someone enough to state whether they are right with God or not through a forum like this...primarily because of so many variable that we cannot see in one another.

The Apostles Creed is a summary of the most important articles of the Catholic Faith that every Catholic is bound to believe.
Tell me, what in the Apostles Creed do you object to as not being Christian?

Really...nothing. However, there is a fine line between accepting something intellectually and its application. For example, when you grew up I assume you had a brother or a sister...you were related TO them by blood, but...did you have a relationship WITH them? That is the difference between a religious person (no matter what denomination they hail from) and one who is walking with God in that Divine Relationship that He offers to us. Do you understand? I can hold to grace and faith and worship God and pray, and love on people all I want to...but if I have not come to God on HIS TERMS and remain in that Covenant Relationship, then all that I believe and do is for nothing in the end.

THAT IS WHERE ITS ALL AT...that is where the rubber meets the road...and that is why I study to show myself approved, not that I need your approval or anyone else's approval, but that I have God's approval. Because if He gives me what to believe, and He approves of it, then I know that what I have is Scriptural and Spiritual truth, and then I am not easily dissuaded by those who come along with false teachings like on the other threads I am on. I have the call of God upon my life...not a pretended call like a lot of preachers and teachers claim today, but God called me through prophets and evangelists more than once, and He who God calls He also equips. I am not saying that I have it all together because I do not...I have a specific call (for example) that has nothing to do with Revelations, so I do not teach on Revelations...went off track there for a moment, hope that's OK.

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ.  If not, you tell me who it was founded by.  And dont say Constantine, that is easily refuteable.


No, as I stated before, Constantine did not create the catholic church, but neither did Christ. Constantine created the atmosphere in which the church evolved into the catholic church, but he did not found it. And Christ, as already stated, did not found the catholic church, He founded the Body of Christ, and through the decree of Constantine, His Body became polluted with non-believers to the point that the pure Word of God became inundated with false ideals and the understanding of sensitive aspects of Christianity became lost (like the understanding of covenant principles). Through this loss of vital information, people no longer "got saved" because they did not have accurate understanding of the key elements of the New Covenant, which we have only begun to see revitalized within the last 6-10 years now.

Blessings!

[Adamski]

From 18-34 I had a massive addiction
And within 7 days of saying the rosary each day it disappeared and has for over two years

[SwordMaster]

From 18-34 I had a massive addiction
And within 7 days of saying the rosary each day it disappeared and has for over two years

Adamski, I do not doubt that, but here, for an example of how the enemy works in false miracles to deceive people . . .

Luke 13:10-17
10   Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.
11   And behold, there was a woman who had had a disabling spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not fully straighten herself.
12   When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your disability."
13   And he laid his hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and she glorified God.
14   But the ruler of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, said to the people, "There are six days in which work ought to be done. Come on those days and be healed, and not on the Sabbath day."
15   Then the Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger and lead it away to water it?
16   And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?"
17   As he said these things, all his adversaries were put to shame, and all the people rejoiced at all the glorious things that were done by him.


Demons can give people the symptoms of diseases, satan is even spoken of in Job of giving Job disease, and because they give these things, when they are cast out, the symptoms of these things go with them. There is a spirit of alchololism...drugs...sex...all kinds of things, and demons can cause physical ailments, such as this woman Jesus "healed" by casting the demon out. I have heard of catholic priests chanting the name of jesus and mary and all kinds of things in the process of casting demons out of people. After hours or even days, the demon finally left.

That is good...however, it was a sham on the priests and all who now believe in catholicism even greater because of such events. This is why I say that...in the name of Jesus, one (1) time...through a person who is walking in the presence of God, that demon will come out...not after hours...not after days...ONE time. The demons in such cases above did not leave because the HAD to, they left because they were working deception making those who were "casting them out" think that they are walking with God, when they were not.

I do not know your situation, I am not judging you or what you say, I am saying that if your addiction was demonically induced in the first place, in order to make you think that you are in a saving relationship with God, it left you alone after seeing you pray the rosary...in order to deceive you from moving into REAL relationship with God. Think about this.....IF the rosary was something from God, why did Jesus not give it to us while He walked this earth with the mission of teaching us about the New Covenant that He was inaugurating? IF the rosary really had the power to do such things...then why would Jesus give all men in relationship with Him the same power? In other words...why give us the authority and power over sin, disease, and demons and then give that same power to us a second time (needlessly) through a rosary? That makes no logical sense.

What does make logical sense, is that the rosary is NOT endued with power from on High, but seemingly from on High by demonic powers bent on deceiving people.

Blessings to you!

[DaveW]

From 18-34 I had a massive addiction
And within 7 days of saying the rosary each day it disappeared and has for over two years

Adamski, I do not doubt that, but here, for an example of how the enemy works in false miracles to deceive people . . .

SM - you better be VERY careful on this as you are (at least IMO) dangerously close to the biblical definition of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I would not call what Adamski experienced a "false miracle" worked by the enemy.  Sure, it may not have come as pristinely as you or I would like, but then neither did the water which blasted out of the rock after Moses struck it in anger. It was a true miracle of God but Moses got punished for not doing it the way God told him to.  The people were expecting from God and God worked.  Adamski was also expecting from God and while we may question the process, God still came thru for him.

Now Jesus warned the Pharisees about the sin of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit when they attributed the miracle of deliverance to the devil. Please do not go down that road.

[SwordMaster]

From 18-34 I had a massive addiction
And within 7 days of saying the rosary each day it disappeared and has for over two years

Adamski, I do not doubt that, but here, for an example of how the enemy works in false miracles to deceive people . . .

SM - you better be VERY careful on this as you are (at least IMO) dangerously close to the biblical definition of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I would not call what Adamski experienced a "false miracle" worked by the enemy.  Sure, it may not have come as pristinely as you or I would like, but then neither did the water which blasted out of the rock after Moses struck it in anger. It was a true miracle of God but Moses got punished for not doing it the way God told him to.  The people were expecting from God and God worked.  Adamski was also expecting from God and while we may question the process, God still came thru for him.

Now Jesus warned the Pharisees about the sin of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit when they attributed the miracle of deliverance to the devil. Please do not go down that road.

Dave...you are out in left field here. Blasphemy of the Spirit is attributing the work of the Spirit to demonic works, and for that to be the case here, Adamski's experience would have to be a genuine healing by the power of the Spirit.

I can tell you most assuredly that it was not, because God does not give healings through any means except through those which He gave us. That is, those with the gift of healings, or those through whom God uses to heal, such as evangelists. What you are failing at here is in thinking that God does whatever He wants through whatever means that He desires. This is incorrect...God will move in this world ONLY through the means that He has established in His Word - in order to make a distinction between what is godly and what is not.

No where in Scripture does God advocate healing, or any other supposed spiritual work, through a rosary, cross, image of Jesus, or any other such nonsense. He only advocates such Divine power through those people who are in Covenant Relationship with Him, because it is through the Covenant that God authorizes people such power ("in the name of Jesus").

Blessings

[neophyte]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains,

Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such "revelations" (CCC 67).

[matt1]

To say that Christ abandoned his Church and let it become a Pagan Religion is to make a liar of God.
Christ promised he would not leave his people orphans and he promised the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. 
We find the basis in Scripture. At the Last Supper, Jesus told his Apostles: 'The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you (Jn. 14, 26). 'When the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth' (Jn. 16,13).
The twelve Apostles were chosen by Jesus to shepherd his Church, with St. Peter as the supreme leader. 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven' (Mt. 16, 1819).
St. Paul, knowing that the truth would remain in the Church, speaks of 'the Church of the living God, which upholds the truth and keeps it safe'
" the church of the living God is the pillar and foundation of the truth." (1 Tim. 3, 15).

The Bible itself shows that Jesus gave the apostles the power to appoint successors.
Christian writers of the first and second centuries show a Church with a hierarchical structure, having power to teach and rule, a bishop being in charge of each community.
The fourth Pope, St. Clement, wrote a long letter to the Church in Corinth about A.D. 96, endeavoring to settle dissensions there. He states: 'Our Apostles knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be dissensions over the title of bishop. In their full knowledge of this, therefore. they proceeded to appoint the ministers I spoke of. and they went on to add an instruction that if these would die, other accredited persons should succeed them in their office (Corinthians, no. 44).

St. Ignatius of Antioch, writing to the Church in Smyrna about A.D. 107 exhorts them: 'Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father' (Smyrneans, no. 8).

St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons and the great opponent of Gnosticism in the second century, insists on the need to follow the Church's bishops if we are to have the truth. 'It is necessary to obey the presbyters in the Church-those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the Apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father' (Adv. Haereses, IV, 26, 2).

Irenaeus names all the Bishops of Rome down to his own time, and says: 'In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the Apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us' (111, 3, 3).

SM, You say you dont twist the Scriptures but in my opinion you have already denied or twisted the meaning of  Christs promise to Peter in Mt. 16. 


Matthew 18:17 "if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." 

Let me ask you, if the Catholic Church was not guided by the Holy Spirit how do we know the Church wasnt mistaken in declaring the New Testament Canon?

Also, Im curious as to what your interpretation is of these Scriptures John 6, Corinthians 11:27, and all last supper accounts.  It seems clear to me that those who believe that Christ was speaking symbolically reject these Scriptures.  Never does the Scripture say he was speaking symbolically.  There is overwhelming evidence that he was speaking literally.  In fact there was no Church that said Christ wasnt speaking literally until the 16th Century.  I read what the early Christians believed about the Eucharist.  They deffinately weren't Protestant.

John 6
This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever...66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Corinthians 11: 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord...29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have died.

In all last supper accounts Christ said "this is my body this is my blood."

In John Chapter 6 Christ repeated over and over again that it was his flesh and blood, people questioned him, he explained what he meant and many Disciples deserted him over this teaching.  He didnt call them back to explain that he wasnt speaking literallly.  He let them go.  That was the first time in his ministry that many of his followers deserted him. 

[Adamski]

Isnt it Intersting Protestants think they can decide how to interprate a catholic book

The bible!

[SwordMaster]

To say that Christ abandoned his Church and let it become a Pagan Religion is to make a liar of God.
Christ promised he would not leave his people orphans and he promised the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. 


Yes, Matt, however you are overlooking the fact that the NT Scriptures are teaching about the New Covenant, and only those who are participating in that covenant have these promises. They are not general promises, but covenant promises. Therefore, if one is not in covenant relationship with God...no matter what they believe or what they do...none of those covenant promises are theirs or was made to them.


We find the basis in Scripture. At the Last Supper, Jesus told his Apostles: 'The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you (Jn. 14, 26). 'When the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth' (Jn. 16,13).

Yes...the Holy Spirit...but only to those who are in covenant relationship with God.


The twelve Apostles were chosen by Jesus to shepherd his Church, with St. Peter as the supreme leader. 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven' (Mt. 16, 1819).


Nope, this is the main passage that the catholic church twists out of context. There was no "supreme leader" of the Apostles, Christ was their leader, not Peter. And Christ did not say that Peter was the foundation of the building of the church, that would be stupid and against logic...He was speaking of the revelation of Christ being the Son of God, the living God in the flesh. That is the basis for the church, NOT Peter.

St. Paul, knowing that the truth would remain in the Church, speaks of 'the Church of the living God, which upholds the truth and keeps it safe'
" the church of the living God is the pillar and foundation of the truth." (1 Tim. 3, 15).

The Bible itself shows that Jesus gave the apostles the power to appoint successors.

Successors as in ministerial positions . . . elders, pastors, overseers...NOT popes, or whatever other name you might want to call them.

Christian writers of the first and second centuries show a Church with a hierarchical structure, having power to teach and rule, a bishop being in charge of each community.
The fourth Pope, St. Clement, wrote a long letter to the Church in Corinth about A.D. 96, endeavoring to settle dissensions there. He states: 'Our Apostles knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be dissensions over the title of bishop. In their full knowledge of this, therefore. they proceeded to appoint the ministers I spoke of. and they went on to add an instruction that if these would die, other accredited persons should succeed them in their office (Corinthians, no. 44).

St. Ignatius of Antioch, writing to the Church in Smyrna about A.D. 107 exhorts them: 'Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father' (Smyrneans, no. 8).

St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons and the great opponent of Gnosticism in the second century, insists on the need to follow the Church's bishops if we are to have the truth. 'It is necessary to obey the presbyters in the Church-those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the Apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father' (Adv. Haereses, IV, 26, 2).

Irenaeus names all the Bishops of Rome down to his own time, and says: 'In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the Apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us' (111, 3, 3).

Yes...but you are confusing bishops with a single person governing the entire church body, and that was NEVER authorized nor practiced until after 313 AD. THAT, friend, is VERY significant.

SM, You say you dont twist the Scriptures but in my opinion you have already denied or twisted the meaning of  Christs promise to Peter in Mt. 16. 

However, that is your opinion, and it is in error...as I have already explained. Christ did not make that grand promise you claim to Peter, and it wasn't even a promise. Lets look at it again, shall we? When we take what Jesus stated IN CONTEXT we see very clearly that He was speaking about the revelation itself that Peter had, NOT Peter himself...

Matthew 16:13-20
13   Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
14   And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15   He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16   Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17   And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18   And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19   I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
20   Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.


First, Peter was anything but a rock, which insinuates stability, he fell several times even as a spirit-filled Apostle, to which Paul gives record. Second, for Christ to build the church upon a person of flesh is ridiculous, He might as well have not started the church at all if that was the case. Third, that Christ's statement was concerning the rock of revelation that Christ was the Son of God, meaning that He was equal to being God in the flesh, is paramount, for Jesus Himself stated that "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins." (John 8:24) Unless we believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, we cannot be saved...THIS is what He was referring to, that the church would be built upon this revelation, NOT upon a man.

As for the keys to the kingdom, when Jesus said this He was no longer speaking to Peter, but was making a broad statement to all believers present and future. We all have the keys to the kingdom if we are walking in covenant relationship with God. Think about it...if Jesus only gave the keys to Peter, then no one else could be saved accept for those Peter gave entrance to it through...and since Peter (or his successors) are only one man, it would be stupid to give them to him or any other one person. Peter is not God, he could not be everywhere in the world where God is needed in order to save people.



Matthew 18:17 "if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." 

Let me ask you, if the Catholic Church was not guided by the Holy Spirit how do we know the Church wasnt mistaken in declaring the New Testament Canon?

When were the NT Scriptures canonized??? Why does the catholic church hold as canon books that the protestant bible does not??? I think the answer to your question here is obvious...not intended to be rude.

Also, Im curious as to what your interpretation is of these Scriptures John 6, Corinthians 11:27, and all last supper accounts.  It seems clear to me that those who believe that Christ was speaking symbolically reject these Scriptures.  Never does the Scripture say he was speaking symbolically.  There is overwhelming evidence that he was speaking literally.  In fact there was no Church that said Christ wasnt speaking literally until the 16th Century.  I read what the early Christians believed about the Eucharist.  They deffinately weren't Protestant.

You are greatly mistaken...one does not need to be told that one spoke in symbolic measure, you are grasping at straws here.

John 6
This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever...66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Corinthians 11: 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord...29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have died.

In all last supper accounts Christ said "this is my body this is my blood."

In John Chapter 6 Christ repeated over and over again that it was his flesh and blood, people questioned him, he explained what he meant and many Disciples deserted him over this teaching.  He didnt call them back to explain that he wasnt speaking literallly.  He let them go.  That was the first time in his ministry that many of his followers deserted him.

Sure, and if you believe that you, or anyone else after the death of Christ could eat His flesh or drink His blood, then you have a real issue. Look in the Scriptures, did ANYONE recorded as eating or drinking His blood? No, there is not. According to this false teaching, if that was true, then the disciples would have had to eat His flesh and drink His blood sometime after the crucifixion. We do not see that. And you cannot expect a logical minded individual to believe that the elements of the communion actually turn into the flesh and blood of Christ - ESPECIALLY when there is absolutely no passage of Scripture to substantiate that false claim.

Besides all this, the OP was concerned with Marion apparitions, not a defense of roman catholic beliefs. If you want to continue that discussion, you need to start another thread with that as the OP.

[Stucky]

Replying to the OP:  Jack Kelley, a well known Bible study teacher, believes there will be many Marian apparitians after the Rapture.  I believe that he belives these will be caused by Satan.

http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hamashiach/the-coming-leader/#more-36203  (Part Two)