LightHammer Explain

[Wednesday]

Do you believe that the Catholic Church doctrines include false teaching?

Yes brother Chester...it does

[Selene]

Actually, I should have said, "SOME" members of the Church are sinners because the mystical body of Christ also includes our brothers and sisters in Heaven, who are already perfect.  Our brothers and sisters in Purgatory are also part of the mystical body of Christ, and they are in the process of being perfected.   The Church is one and we are one big happy family.   

[Kindle]

Chestertonrules,

Thank you for the site addy.  I've read through it. But in all fairness, I believe I need to rest my mind a bit before I will able to absorb what it is saying.

As far as celibacy is concerned, both Christ and then Paul spoke on this.

"For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb . . . and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake.  He who is able to accept it, let him accept it."
(Matthew 19:12)  ...Christ's own thoughts.

Peace to you, Brother.  
My lil brain is not used to this kind of work out. But I thank you for the discussion.  I will be back in a bit.

[Catholica]

OK LightHammer

Explain  to me !    And what is wrong with my bible church?  Which was once a Baptist church and they seen  [ Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth ]
And changed to bible not religion !

I know the C.C. has changed !  But it took me over 50 years before I became
saved . 

And now what will you tell me ?

Dear grams If i may. I see nothing wrong with you Bible church if they teach it in truth. Catholica saying there is heretical interpretation of the verse rightly dividing the word truth saying the church is divided. Well my self I have never heard of such a thing and i have been in churches for thirty years.

rightly dividing the word of truth simply means to know and understand it by studying it We must alway pray for Gods spirit to help us to understand Gods word and not to be mislead by any joe who says he is authority or some slick talking charismatic speaker. This is not to not listen to good sound teaching, but its not solely the teacher who gives us understanding but that by studying we can discern the truth and the leading of the Holy Spirit

Chesterton says we must listen to RCC authority only whereby he is doing the same thing that Catholica said of the heretical teachers  dividing  the church  

quote from catholica "implies that the body of Christ is divided and that we should follow after Paul alone as if he is our Rabbi."

Confusion to say the least

mclees8,

Here is a link to a church that teaches, as a foundation, this verse "rightly dividing the word of Truth", 2 Tim. 2:15 (only in the KJV). They hold that Paul taught a gospel of grace to the gentiles while all the others taught a different gospel to the Jews.  Therefore, since we are gentiles, we are only bound to what Paul wrote, from Romans through Philemon and the part of Acts where Paul is featured.  So now you have heard it.  :-)   Its actually quite an old heresy, though not old enough to even be considered the truth of the start of the church that Jesus founded.

[Lively Stone]

Catholics are sinners, but the Catholic Church is perfect given that it was created and is guided by God.

As an RC I must say that the above statement does not ring true .

You cannot dissociate members of the Church from the Church . It is the members united to Christ who make up the Church .

That it was created and is guided by God does not make the Church perfect .
I was created and am guided by God but that does not make me perfect . I wish it did .

The saints were created and guided by God , but not one of them would claim to be perfect .

Not until the final consummation of things when Christ returns in glory will the Church become perfect . Until that time it will remain imperfect since its members are imperfect .

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all Truth.

Do you believe that the Catholic Church doctrines include false teaching?

  Sure do.

[Lively Stone]

Actually, I should have said, "SOME" members of the Church are sinners because the mystical body of Christ also includes our brothers and sisters in Heaven, who are already perfect.  Our brothers and sisters in Purgatory are also part of the mystical body of Christ, and they are in the process of being perfected.   The Church is one and we are one big happy family.   

No one is in an imaginary place called Purgatory.

[grams]

I don't know what LightHammer will have to say, but that phrase "Rightly dividing the word of truth", hearkens back to quite an old heresy, called Marcionism, that was denounced over 1600 years ago.  It is a very dangerous interpretation of the Bible that implies that the body of Christ is divided and that we should follow after Paul alone as if he is our Rabbi.

I've listened to a local show on Protestant radio many times that promotes this heresy.  I'm sorry to use that harsh word, but there is no question about it; that's what it is.  

The truth is that there is only one covenant between all of God's people.  There is no remnant Judaic church that is gone and will return.  There is one body of Christ only, and all the words of scripture are for everyone.  It is wrong to think that the letters of the NT biblical authors were written to only a certain people in a certain time.  In fact, the letters of Peter, John, and Jude are called "catholic" letters, meaning that they were written specifically for everybody.

1Cor. 1:12 I mean that each of you is saying, "I belong to Paul,

[Kindle]

Chestertonrules,

I've taken a closer look at the info on the Cathars, and can't see where violent practices committed by the Cathars are described here.  
I looked into gnosticism some years back, and just could not go along with their belief that the God of the OT was an evil God.. Actually, I think it was the God of  the early part of Genesis that they took exception to, if I'm remembering correctly.
But I do not see that the destruction of the Cathars was justified.  All accounts I have ever read of them were that they were an egalitarian and nonviolent people, vegetarians even, who sought purity as a way of life. They were indeed a Christian sect. I know they received a great deal of bad press from the Catholic Church. But then I've also read accounts from the Inquisitioners themselves saying that the Cathars were not as they were said to be.  
One shocking thing to me that I read is that they allowed assisted suicide, in order to get to Heaven sooner .  So yes, I would say they had some considerable false teachings.  But, again, I cannot see that their deaths were justified.  By all accounts I've read, they were a peaceful people. 

[chestertonrules]

Chestertonrules,

I've taken a closer look at the info on the Cathars, and can't see where violent practices committed by the Cathars are described here.  
I looked into gnosticism some years back, and just could not go along with their belief that the God of the OT was an evil God.. Actually, I think it was the God of  the early part of Genesis that they took exception to, if I'm remembering correctly.
But I do not see that the destruction of the Cathars was justified.  All accounts I have ever read of them were that they were an egalitarian and nonviolent people, vegetarians even, who sought purity as a way of life. They were indeed a Christian sect. I know they received a great deal of bad press from the Catholic Church. But then I've also read accounts from the Inquisitioners themselves saying that the Cathars were not as they were said to be.  
One shocking thing to me that I read is that they allowed assisted suicide, in order to get to Heaven sooner .  So yes, I would say they had some considerable false teachings.  But, again, I cannot see that their deaths were justified.  By all accounts I've read, they were a peaceful people. 

Here's how the violence started:


In January 1208 the papal legate, Pierre de Castelnau was sent to meet the ruler of the area, Count Raymond VI of Toulouse. Known for excommunicating noblemen who protected the Cathars, Castelnau excommunicated Raymond as an abettor of heresy following an allegedly fierce argument during which Raymond supposedly threatened Castelnau with violence. Shortly thereafter, Castelnau was murdered as he returned to Rome, allegedly by a knight in the service of Count Raymond.

[Kindle]

Chestertonrules,
Yes, I understood that.  It is a possibility that Raymond was responsible.  I believe there were other princes within the Cathar region that also resisted Rome's orders to quell the Cathar, however. Castelnau's murder would have been a good set up for a call to arms against the entire region. Here, perhaps I am remembering wrong. In either case, it was a very unfortunate outcome.
I appreciate your sharing all this with me, Brother.  There's not many people I talk to who delve into these areas of exploration.  If you would like to continue our conversations at any time, please pm me. For now though, if you would not object, I would like to give grams her thread back.

God Bless you, Chestertonrules.

[chestertonrules]

 

[Paulus]

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all Truth.

Do you believe that the Catholic Church doctrines include false teaching?

I have no problem with that , but it does not make the Church perfect . Jesus , the Head , is perfect , but the members are not  . The Head and members make up the Church , so it means that as long as it is made up of us sinners it will be imperfect .

[Paulus]

The members of the Church (which is us) are not perfect.  But the Church (the mystical Body of Christ) is perfect because Christ has no sin.  Christ's body was born perfect without sin.  The members are part of the mystical body of Christ because we are one.  But the members do have sin.  I hope you understand that.  Sometimes, it can be confusing like the Holy Trinity. 

I think you are making it seem as if the mystical Body of Christ is Christ only . It is not . It is Christ the Head who is perfect and we the members who are imperfect .
You can't say that because Christ is perfect therefore the Church is perfect .
We as members of the Body of Christ , as members of the Church , mess things up , and cause it to be imperfect .

I have just got back from receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation . My sin damages the Church . My sin causes the Church to be imperfect .

Not until the End , when the Church is gathered in the glory of Heaven , will it be perfect . I don't find it confusing . I find it to be so obvious .

[Selene]

The members of the Church (which is us) are not perfect.  But the Church (the mystical Body of Christ) is perfect because Christ has no sin.  Christ's body was born perfect without sin.  The members are part of the mystical body of Christ because we are one.  But the members do have sin.  I hope you understand that.  Sometimes, it can be confusing like the Holy Trinity.  

I think you are making it seem as if the mystical Body of Christ is Christ only . It is not . It is Christ the Head who is perfect and we the members who are imperfect .
You can't say that because Christ is perfect therefore the Church is perfect .
We as members of the Body of Christ , as members of the Church , mess things up , and cause it to be imperfect .

I have just got back from receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation . My sin damages the Church . My sin causes the Church to be imperfect .

Not until the End , when the Church is gathered in the glory of Heaven , will it be perfect . I don't find it confusing . I find it to be so obvious .

I thought that Christ and the Church is a reflection of the Holy Trinity and the Incarnate Word.  This is what I found in the Catechism of the Catohlic Church:  

CCC 779  The Church is both visible and spiritual, a hierarchical society and the Mystical Body of Christ. She is one, yet formed of two components, human and divine. That is her mystery, which only faith can accept

CCC 770  The Church is in history, but at the same time she transcends it.  It is only "with the eyes of faith" that one can see her in her visible reality and at the same time in her spiritual reality as bearer of divine life.  

CCC  771  "The one mediator, Christ, established and ever sustains here on earth his holy Church, the community of faith, hope, and charity, as a visible organization through which he communicates truth and grace to all men."184 The Church is at the same time:

-a "society structured with hierarchical organs and the mystical body of Christ;

-the visitlbe society and the spiritual community;

-the earthly Church and the Church endowed with heavenly riches."  

These dimensions together constitute "one complex reality which comes together from a human and a divine element".  

    The Church is essentially both human and divine, visible but endowed with invisible realities, zealous in action and dedicated to contemplation, present in the world, but as a pilgrim, so constituted that in her the human is directed toward and subordinated to the divine, the visible to the invisible, action to conetemplation, and this present world to that city yet to come, the object of our quest.  

    Oh humility!  O sublimity!  Both tabernacle of cedar and santuary of God; earthly dwelling an dcelestial palace; house of clay and royal hall; body of death and temple of light; and at last both object of scorn to the proud and bride of Christ.  She is black but beautiful, O daughters of Jerusalem, for even if the labor and pain of her long exile may have discolored her, yet heaven's beauty has adorned her.


According to the Compedium of the Catechism (Lumen gentium 8), it states:  

......But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the mystical body of Christ, the visible society and the spiritual community, the earthly Church and the Church endowed with heavenly riches, are not to be thought of as two realities.  On the contrary, they form one complex reality which comes together from a human and a divine element.  For this reason the Church is compared, in a powerful analogy, to the mystery of the Incarnate Word.

It seems that the Catechism is saying that there is a mystery to the Church in the same way as the mystery of the Incarnate Word.  The mystical body of Christ is defined as the Church, but it seems to say that the divine nature of the Church is perfect.      

[Paulus]

But the Church (the mystical Body of Christ) is perfect because Christ has no sin .

The Church , the mystical Body of Christ , is not perfect because Christ has no sin .
True , Christ has no sin , but the rest of the Body , its members , have sin . Therefore it is not perfect .

As a member of the Church I am not perfect . So the Church can't be perfect because of me .

Head and members form the Church . The Head is perfect but the members aren't . The perfection of the Head does not obliterate the imperfection of the members .

Head and members make up ONE BODY , and if any part of that Body is not perfect , we cannot say that the Body is perfect .

In fact , the Head is perfect , but all the members on earth are imperfect . So as night follows day , the Body , made up of sinful members , is not perfect .

You can't decapitate the Body and act as if only the Head were the Body and the rest is not real . The rest of the Body is as much a part of the Body as the Head , and as long as the rest of the Body is made up of us sinners , the Body , the Church , will not be perfect , until the Church is in Heaven . But we on earth aren't yet .

I can't put any plainer than that .

I am not out to attack the Church , but simply to be honest and state the obvious .

[Lively Stone]

The Body of Christ is not made up of sinners---only ex-sinners called saints. God doesn't see His children as sinners. He sees them as already perfect, covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:12-14
12 But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God's right hand. 13 There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet. 14 For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy.

[Selene]

But the Church (the mystical Body of Christ) is perfect because Christ has no sin .

The Church , the mystical Body of Christ , is not perfect because Christ has no sin .
True , Christ has no sin , but the rest of the Body , its members , have sin . Therefore it is not perfect .

As a member of the Church I am not perfect . So the Church can't be perfect because of me .

Head and members form the Church . The Head is perfect but the members aren't . The perfection of the Head does not obliterate the imperfection of the members .

Head and members make up ONE BODY , and if any part of that Body is not perfect , we cannot say that the Body is perfect .

In fact , the Head is perfect , but all the members on earth are imperfect . So as night follows day , the Body , made up of sinful members , is not perfect .

You can't decapitate the Body and act as if only the Head were the Body and the rest is not real . The rest of the Body is as much a part of the Body as the Head , and as long as the rest of the Body is made up of us sinners , the Body , the Church , will not be perfect , until the Church is in Heaven . But we on earth aren't yet .

I can't put any plainer than that .

I am not out to attack the Church , but simply to be honest and state the obvious .

I'm not out to attack the Church as well.  I'm just trying to understand what the Catechism is saying about the mystery of the Church being both human and divine.  There is a Church in Heaven of which we are one.  That is the Church Triumph.  That Church is perfect.  Could the Catechism be referring to that Church when it says that the Church is both human and divine? 

From what I was taught, the Church militant, the Church suffering, and the Church trumph make up the entire mystical body of Christ.  All are one and has Christ as her Head.  When the Catechism says that the Church "a "society structured with hierarchical organs and the mystical body of Christ;" isn't it referring to Christ's own body because Christ wanted to make us one with His body.  Isn't the Pope also considered the head of the Church because he is representative of Christ?  The Pope is not perfect, but as the Vicar of Christ, isn't he considered the head?   

[Lively Stone]

But the Church (the mystical Body of Christ) is perfect because Christ has no sin .

The Church , the mystical Body of Christ , is not perfect because Christ has no sin .
True , Christ has no sin , but the rest of the Body , its members , have sin . Therefore it is not perfect .

As a member of the Church I am not perfect . So the Church can't be perfect because of me .

Head and members form the Church . The Head is perfect but the members aren't . The perfection of the Head does not obliterate the imperfection of the members .

Head and members make up ONE BODY , and if any part of that Body is not perfect , we cannot say that the Body is perfect .

In fact , the Head is perfect , but all the members on earth are imperfect . So as night follows day , the Body , made up of sinful members , is not perfect .

You can't decapitate the Body and act as if only the Head were the Body and the rest is not real . The rest of the Body is as much a part of the Body as the Head , and as long as the rest of the Body is made up of us sinners , the Body , the Church , will not be perfect , until the Church is in Heaven . But we on earth aren't yet .

I can't put any plainer than that .

I am not out to attack the Church , but simply to be honest and state the obvious .

I'm not out to attack the Church as well.  I'm just trying to understand what the Catechism is saying about the mystery of the Church being both human and divine.  There is a Church in Heaven of which we are one.  That is the Church Triumph.  That Church is perfect.  Could the Catechism be referring to that Church when it says that the Church is both human and divine?  

From what I was taught, the Church militant, the Church suffering, and the Church trumph make up the entire mystical body of Christ.  All are one and has Christ as her Head.  When the Catechism says that the Church "a "society structured with hierarchical organs and the mystical body of Christ;" isn't it referring to Christ's own body because Christ wanted to make us one with His body.  Isn't the Pope also considered the head of the Church because he is representative of Christ?  The Pope is not perfect, but as the Vicar of Christ, isn't he considered the head?  

Why do you divide the Church up with labels---Triumphant, Militant, etc? This is all religious gobbledegook. We who follow Christ are the Church...period.

The Church is not structured in a hierarchy at all. We are all one with Christ and are all outfitted with gifts and abilities, none more important than the other, and all part of the fully functioning Body of Christ in the world.

The Pope is really an ineffective, useless appendage. He has no power and is not the head of anything to do with Jesus Christ, nor a representative of anyone.

Only Jesus is the head of the vibrant Church on earth.

[Kindle]

To the Catholics here.. I don't usually visit these forums.  The few crumbs I now have on my plate will a whole lot of time to consume.  But I hope that my jouney of life and study will bring me back sometime. 
I just wanted to say by way of au revoir.. that I agree with Joyfulee. We who follow Christ are the Church; Catholics and Protestants included.  I pray for mutual understanding and the future joy of a family united for us all. 
It's a whole lot better than whacking each other with a shillelagh!!!
May God bless us all!!! May love triumph!!
And, you know it will. 

[Selene]

To the Catholics here.. I don't usually visit these forums.  The few crumbs I now have on my plate will a whole lot of time to consume.  But I hope that my jouney of life and study will bring me back sometime. 
I just wanted to say by way of au revoir.. that I agree with Joyfulee. We who follow Christ are the Church; Catholics and Protestants included.  I pray for mutual understanding and the future joy of a family united for us all. 
It's a whole lot better than whacking each other with a shillelagh!!!
May God bless us all!!! May love triumph!!
And, you know it will. 

Hello Kindle, 

Thank you for posting this.  May God bless you as well and peace be with you. 

In Christ,
Selene

[Paulus]

I'm just trying to understand what the Catechism is saying about the mystery of the Church being both human and divine. 

Isn't the Pope also considered the head of the Church because he is representative of Christ?  The Pope is not perfect, but as the Vicar of Christ, isn't he considered the head?   

I would say that the Church is both human and divine because the Head , Jesus , is divine , and the members , we on earth and the saints in Heaven , are human . The Body's Head is divine and its members are human , all making up one Body .

I have searched official documents and have been unable to find any which refer to the Pope as head of the Church . I have found the term  " head of the College of Bishops " .
In common parlance the Pope is spoken of as head of the Church , but I think that is sloppy journalism . The Archbishop of Westminster is often referred to as the head of the Church in England . Cardinal Cormac , the retired Archbishop of Westminster , used to point out that he was not . Westminster is a diocese in a prominent location , London , but its Archbishop has no authority over the other bishops in England .

I would be loathe to give a title to the Pope which belongs to Christ alone .

[Selene]

I'm just trying to understand what the Catechism is saying about the mystery of the Church being both human and divine. 

Isn't the Pope also considered the head of the Church because he is representative of Christ?  The Pope is not perfect, but as the Vicar of Christ, isn't he considered the head?   

I would say that the Church is both human and divine because the Head , Jesus , is divine , and the members , we on earth and the saints in Heaven , are human . The Body's Head is divine and its members are human , all making up one Body .

I have searched official documents and have been unable to find any which refer to the Pope as head of the Church . I have found the term  " head of the College of Bishops " .
In common parlance the Pope is spoken of as head of the Church , but I think that is sloppy journalism . The Archbishop of Westminster is often referred to as the head of the Church in England . Cardinal Cormac , the retired Archbishop of Westminster , used to point out that he was not . Westminster is a diocese in a prominent location , London , but its Archbishop has no authority over the other bishops in England .

I would be loathe to give a title to the Pope which belongs to Christ alone .

I've been reading the Catechisms more because I'm being trained as a Catechist, and there are references in there saying that the bishops are head of a particular Church (CCC 1462).  It also says that the Pope is the common head of the Church (CCC 899).   Interestingly, below is what the Catechism says: 

881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head." This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope. 

What I learned is that Christ always shares His title with humans.  For example, Christ is the Good Shepherd, but bishops and priests are also referred to as "shepherds."  Christ is the rock, but St. Peter is also a rock.  Even St. Paul describes husbands as the head and the wives as the Church. There are many examples of this in the Bible.  I should ask Father about this.  Afterall, Father is one of those training me to be a catechist.  Of course, he's always telling me to be more like a holy saint.....but that's another story.   

[Paulus]

It also says that the Pope is the common head of the Church (CCC 899).     Of course, he's always telling me to be more like a holy saint.....but that's another story.   

Now we have another puzzle . What does the term  "common head" mean ?

The Annuario Pontificio , the annual directory of the Holy See , gives the official list of titles of the Pope : -
1.Bishop of Rome .
2.Vicar of Jesus Christ .
3.Successor of the Prince of the Apostles .
4.Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church .
5.Primate of Italy .
6.Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province .
7.Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City .
8.Servant of the Servants of God .

I'm sure you will be an excellent catechist .

As for being a holy saint , the Holy Spirit will take care of that .

[grams]

After reading all of the post, I wanted to explain what was going on in my head..

To begin with, I was Catholic for about 50 years.  And our children went to other churchs  as they grew up and pulled us out of the church.
Our older son was even an alter boy.  And is and was a smart person, who just could not  stay there after some one showed him the bible...
And that begain to change all our lifes..

I have to say the C. C. has changed a lot , but back in my time I did not know it was so different then other church !
See we did not use a bible, and you can not have all the truth from a prayer book!   But you do receive mans word and not God's!
And back then we were not to  be friends with any one who was not Catholic !

I now know they do use the bible and have bible study.
But it scares me to think of all those people back then , if they died were did they go ?   If I did not change to a bible church , I would be going to hell.   I think ?  [ this was back in the 40's and 50's ]

Reading the bible and having a good teacher, which we do and no religion is great.   Learning things every day.

Any thing that our teacher Pastor teaches us , he always bring us to the bible with verses that show us the truth.

And now I do know my whole family is saved !