"works" challenge...

[SwordMaster]

There are many here who believe that in Paul's addresses concerning "works," that he is addressing the standard teaching of the OT, to wit: that the OT teaches that one could gain eternal life by walking in obedience to the law of Moses.

The challenge here...is to prove that belief.

Do not post if you do not have Scriptural evidence that you believe teaches that the OT saint was one who walked in obedience to the law of Moses, and so gained eternal life.

[k-pappy]

Who here said that OT saints gained eternal life by following the law of moses?

[SwordMaster]

Who here said that OT saints gained eternal life by following the law of moses?

You have, for one, in an indirect manner.

That is the unsupported premise of practically every post stating that Paul teaches eternal life comes apart from obedience to God, equating obedience to God as a "work."

Every negative statement from Paul against works is a negative statement against the law of Moses, for the law of Moses has been set aside and is no longer valid. Every positive statement from Paul for obedience to the law is a statement supporting the new law of the New Covenant.

Those here who attribute obedience to God not being a requirement for eternal life consistently utilize the statements of Paul against the law (of Moses) as including obedience to God, and that is incorrect and not according to healthy exegesis.

Paul's statements against works of the law (of Moses) consistently refer to the Pharisaic twisted teachings of the spiritual leadership of their day, where the spiritual leaders (sometime in the Silent Years between Malachi and Matthew) began teaching the aberration of God's Word that men could work their way to heaven - but we do not find that kind of teaching anywhere in the Old Testament.

The point is this...since this is NOT taught anywhere in the Old Covenant, why is it consistently interpreted that this is what Paul means when he addresses negative statements about works of the law? Paul, along with James, does not teach that one does not have to walk in obedience to God, he teaches against the same aberration of God's Word that Jesus also taught against...

Matthew 15:8-9
"'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"

Matthew 23:1-5
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others...."

[k-pappy]

Who here said that OT saints gained eternal life by following the law of moses?

You have, for one, in an indirect manner.

That is a lie.  Apparently the initial post is based on a lie as well, if that is what your supposition is.  You are the one who stated that what Jesus did on the cross is not sufficient for our salvation....and now you are lying by claiming I said things I did not.

[SwordMaster]

Who here said that OT saints gained eternal life by following the law of moses?

You have, for one, in an indirect manner.

That is a lie.  Apparently the initial post is based on a lie as well, if that is what your supposition is.  You are the one who stated that what Jesus did on the cross is not sufficient for our salvation....and now you are lying by claiming I said things I did not.

I would watch who you call a liar, sir.

By stating that Paul's addresses against works implies including obedience to God, which you have done, then you have stated exactly what I said you stated.

Also, as far as your statement..."You are the one who stated that what Jesus did on the cross is not sufficient for our salvation"...that is a lie...or a gross assumption on your part. If you want to debate this, then by all means meet me at the debate board so that we do not have to wade through hundreds of other posts, otherwise, this is off the topic.

You misunderstand the Scriptures...go to the debate board on that subject and post passages of Scripture that states that Christ's work upon the cross is sufficient for our salvation, requiring absolutely nothing from us...and don't play games.

This thread concerns the erroneous idea that eternal life was given to OT saints because of obedience to the OT law, which was never taught in the OT.

Convenient how you ignored all that from my last post. Please stick with the OP.

[BlackSepulcher]

what Jesus did on the cross is not sufficient for our salvation

One has to be careful when they venture upon this, because it is often spoken against those who believe in works along with faith, but ironically the same can be said about those who do not believe in works.

The reason being is because if you put works against faith, you are saying that that those in good works are definitively not saved over a man with faith without works. This in turn creates the fact that Jesus' work is incomplete, because it takes faith to complete it.

The fact of the matter is that works are a creation of faith- without works, you are vain in your belief- it is not really faith at all, it is merely a wishful idea.

[k-pappy]

That is a lie.  Apparently the initial post is based on a lie as well, if that is what your supposition is.  You are the one who stated that what Jesus did on the cross is not sufficient for our salvation....and now you are lying by claiming I said things I did not.

I would watch who you call a liar, sir.

I did not call you a liar.  I said your statement was a lie.  It is.  I have never said what you claimed I did and I am offended that you would tell lies about what I said.

I ignored the rest of your post because you tried to justify the lie and there is no justification for telling a lie.

The fact that you have stated Jesus' Sacrifice is not enough for our salvation is perfectly relevant to the topic at hand.  You making more false accusations against me and insulting my intelligence are not relevant to the OP, and I would kindly ask you to refrain from doing so in the future.

Thank you,
Bond

[DaveW]

Paul said that "no flesh" was justified by the works of the Law. (Rom 3.20) That includes Moses who wrote down the Law.

Salvation is on the basis of covenant.  By being born into the Mosaic covenant, the Israelite was "saved" from birth.  That could be broken by committing one of the sins that "cut off" the person from the People of God and NOT repenting from it via the method of the Mosaic covenant: the appropriate and proper sacrifice.

The idea of salvation by legalistic adherence to the "Law" was a Pharisaic mistake.

[Johnb]

I am locking this thread.   It is based on telling others what they believe and can only lead to name calling and hard feeling.