Grace centered

[Cliftyman]

I'll try my best not to dodge what I've said Skip....


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]But I would guess that you are not interested in following these commands[/quote]

you're better off not guessing...

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I do not agree with your attempting to use Scripture to justify ignoring commands.[/quote]

Thats not why I posted those.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You have judged piney.com as guilty of the sins of slander and derision.[/quote]

Yes I did, possibly I should have left my accusation at what I first said, question of people's character and intent... either one is true, one is just "nicer"

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Then you slandered me in your previous post by equating the spirit of my previous post with piney.com. [/quote]

I said you may have been judging people's character and intent (not knowing the whole story behind Max L. and Billy G.)... I later said Piney was guilty of slander and dirision... that is not something I accused you of..

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You have posed "hard" questions that you yourself dodge[/quote]

Actually not enough time has went by for you to determine whether I am dodging or not

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You have engaged in such practices as equating me with a disparaging label[/quote]

Once again, I said you maybe shouldn't question people's intent or character...

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If you are not prepared for a heated exchange, then you should never have turned up the heat![/quote]

From what I can tell my "heated" exchange (as smoldering as it was) was just barely directed towards yourself (and much more at piney and judging in general).  I am never "prepared" for a heated exchange, I don't enjoy heated exchanges....  If I've found that my comments have heated up someone, I'll try to do my best to calm them down.  I really didn't mean about half of what you assumed I meant.... I was just trying to keep from having other people's intent and character judged.... (Max Lucado, Billy Graham, and Baptists in general (in reference to BoG)) amazing how trying to do good can become so bad.

As for my mention of the foot washing, holy kisses and other things... that wasn't even in reference to any actions from you Skip... that was a general statement about judging in general.  That is what the whole "with whatever you measure you will be measured statement is about".

I've found that a lot of folks who judge others tend to judge on "finer points" of the NT as I said... (I was thinking of IM in particular) yet they don't even judge themselves on things such foot washing, holy kisses, elders annointing with oil.  I asked you that with a hope that you either
a. consider that method of intrepretation to not be correct
b. if you do follow that method of intrepretation that you follow it all areas of your life and the bible.

It wasn't meant to judge or slander you.  It was merely a statement in regard to judging in general.....

Maybe I should just shut my mouth in the future?

[boringoldguy]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Cliftyman @ May 20 2004,11:05)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I was just trying to keep from having other people's intent and character judged.... (Max Lucado, Billy Graham, and Baptists in general (in reference to BoG)) amazing how trying to do good can become so bad.[/quote]
Wait just a cotton pickin minute here.

You show me where I judged the the intent and character of Baptists in general or you ought to retract that statement.

[Arkstfan]

I think BOG has always been quite clear that while he disagrees with those folks on some issues (baptism among them), I don't recall him ever doubting that they held those beliefs in sincerely or took to those positions lightly.

In my discussions with him my impression has always been that he felt that while personally does not agree with their views, that his business card didn't carry the title judge of their salvation. I'm sure he would give them a heartfelt explanation of where they are wrong and why but would never accuse them of ill intent.

[Cliftyman]

Goodness... BoG, I didn't mean you did.  I was referring to my response that I made to you about Baptists...

You know what I give up.  Obviously I haven't been graced with a very good grasp of written communication skills....

:doh:

[Skip]

Clifty,

As is already obvious, I have issues with the teaching and methods of both M. Lucato and B. Graham as I stated in my post. The issues are not of judging the intent or character of either person, but are with posted writings and with public TV appearances. Their character is NOT the issue - their TEACHING is the issue.
As BOG jumped in and noted that he had not judged the "intent and character" of Baptists, I now ask, point out where did I judge the "intent and character" of either person in question?

Thus far, in spite of your assertion that you will "try not to dodge", I don't really see many straight answers.
Your answers to my direct questions about the topics you raised were IMO coy and vague, like "you shouldn't guess" (immediately after your pledge not to dodge), and "not enough time has gone by".

And the questions themselves are IMO an effort to find a foothold based on hypocrisy.
For instance, note that the point 'b' in your post:
" b. if you do follow that method of interpretation that you follow it all areas of your life and the bible."
...Is IMO nothing less than fishing for hypocrisy!

What if my answer to 'b' was "No" instead of "Yes"?
Why are you fishing for this hypocrisy?
Why will you not plainly state your purpose?

In my experience, the ONLY reason that these types of questions are raised is that this hypocrisy will ultimately be used to justify a position not accepted by the "traditional coC", be it women's roles, or clapping, or whatever - I think you can fill in the blank with the "usual suspects" (to quote from Casablanca).

My first encounters with such questions were with non-Christians seeking to justify their lifestyle because "those Christians are just hypocrites!"
Now I increasingly run into the very same tactic being used by Christians to attempt to justify some practice or doctrine that they cannot support from Scripture.
Sad, so sad.
But this is your chance to "break the mold"...

[Cliftyman]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]point out where did I judge the "intent and character" of either person in question?[/quote]

After going back and re-reading what you said I believe I may have jumped the gun.  I am sorry.

I guess the entire problem I had with the way you worded it was that Billy Graham, through his not pushing baptism is against it.  Many, many, many people who have come to Christ through the teaching of Billy Graham have went further and become baptized.  As for Max Lucado's statement that says whether you are sprinkled or baptized you are accepted.  I agree with it.  Its not our place to judge men's baptism.  There are some adults who are sprinkled (I do not agree with infant baptism, they cannot knowingly participate in it).

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Thus far, in spite of your assertion that you will "try not to dodge", I don't really see many straight answers.
Your answers to my direct questions about the topics you raised were IMO coy and vague, like "you shouldn't guess" (immediately after your pledge not to dodge), and "not enough time has gone by".

And the questions themselves are IMO an effort to find a foothold based on hypocrisy.
For instance, note that the point 'b' in your post:
" b. if you do follow that method of interpretation that you follow it all areas of your life and the bible."
...Is IMO nothing less than fishing for hypocrisy!

What if my answer to 'b' was "No" instead of "Yes"?
Why are you fishing for this hypocrisy?
Why will you not plainly state your purpose?
[/quote]

I've already stated it.  I can't help it if you won't accept it?!  I don't enjoy seeing people talked about... but obviously I misjudged your post from the beginning and you really didn't talk about those people (and neither did BoG) but their teaching.  Get off my case!

[zoonance]

I have all the answers!:cool:

[MIZ83]

BOG, Skip,

Skip, when you mention that certain types of questions are used by those who wish to justify practices contra to "traditional COC's", it appears that you assume that Cliftyman belongs to the "non-traditional COC".  He does not.  And BOG, if you wonder at his sensitivity to the Baptist label, you need to understand why.  If memory serves me correctly, while I was posting on a Baptist board, he came on identifying himself as being on this board, yet attending a Baptist church.  For whatever reason, Cliftyman doesn't often make that very clear when posting here.  That does not make his points any more or less valid from the Scriptures, but it does shed light on where he is coming from.  I had always assumed, from his posts, that he was a grace-centered COC'er.  I'm not sure why he is not more forthcoming.

Cliftyman, if my memory has failed me on this, please correct me.

Blessings,

Bob

[marc]

Proof that there is a resurrection!  :D

[seekr]

Proof that there is a resurrection!

:applause:  :poke:[/color]

[spurly]

BOG, Skip,

Skip, when you mention that certain types of questions are used by those who wish to justify practices contra to "traditional COC's", it appears that you assume that Cliftyman belongs to the "non-traditional COC".  He does not.  And BOG, if you wonder at his sensitivity to the Baptist label, you need to understand why.  If memory serves me correctly, while I was posting on a Baptist board, he came on identifying himself as being on this board, yet attending a Baptist church.  For whatever reason, Cliftyman doesn't often make that very clear when posting here.  That does not make his points any more or less valid from the Scriptures, but it does shed light on where he is coming from.  I had always assumed, from his posts, that he was a grace-centered COC'er.  I'm not sure why he is not more forthcoming.

I think you just missed it somewhere.  Most of us knew where he worshiped.