I'm searching for my Catholic faith and need some advice, please.

[billvelek]

Hello all,

This is my first post, and I'd like to lay my cards on the table to find out whether my interests will be welcome here and if I can possibly find some help.  I don't mean to be melodramatic, but I have invested considerable time in Christian Forums which, due to some sort of technical problem, has been virtually inaccessible to me most of the time.  I can't handle the frustration and delays anymore, so I'm now looking for a new home.  I joined Catholic Answers Forum several months ago, but have only made 2 or 3 posts; I have been reluctant to delve into much over there because I fear that my posts will not be welcome.  I very much need Catholic answers/advice and a Catholic perspective, but I also welcome input and suggestions from other faiths as well (particularly Apostolic faiths).

I was born and raised Catholic by two wonderful cradle-Catholics who very much practiced their faith including confessions and Mass, and I went to Catholic schools for 12 years back when there were mostly priests and nuns teaching.  I married a wonderful Catholic girl who was likewise born and raised in a devout Catholic family and she attended 12 years of Catholic School as well.  We were both virgins when we married in the Catholic Church 41 years ago and are still in love and very blest by Almighty God.  We have 8 children and 12 grandchildren.  Travel distance to the Catholic Church was an obstacle, so all of our kids attended public school; however, all of them also attended Parish Religious Education until they graduated from high school, and they all received their required sacraments (Baptism, First Holy Communion, and Confirmation). Somewhere along the line, as our nest emptied, I stopped going to Mass several years ago, but my wife and most of our kids still go -- at least most of the time.  As for me, I'm not sure I can even say exactly why I stopped, but as I have contemplated returning to the church over the past year or so I realized that I had developed certain issues with the Catholic Church that I need to resolve or else find another denomination.  I began to search for my faith, and last year I thought that my disagreements were so insurmountable that I gave up on the idea of ever returning to the Catholic Church and began seriously considering other churches -- mainly the Coptic and Eastern Orthodox.

A few weeks ago I got into a lengthy in-depth discussion with one of my sons who is devoutly Catholic, and he helped me to overcome some of my issues.  But I still have a few that I need to address, which I hope to do here.  A couple of weeks ago I received the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) for the first time in several years, and although I know that I made a good and honest one, it didn't seem to be the appropriate time or place to monopolize the confessional in order to discuss general concepts of theology.  So I still have not received the Eucharist because, as far as I'm concerned, I am not in full communion with the Catholic Church.  I therefore think that it would be dishonest for me to receive the Eucharist when I believe it would probably be withheld from me if the priest knew what I do believe and what I don't.  I would very much like to receive the Eucharist, and especially so on Easter Sunday.

So here are my differences with the Catholic Church:

1.  I do NOT believe in the infallibility of the Pope; however, I am looking into the matter because this might really just be a matter of semantics or misunderstanding on my part.

2.  I have my DOUBTS about the primacy of the Pope, as opposed to matters being determined by the Curia or a Synod.

3.  I feel very negatively toward the Pope's title of Vicar of Christ -- actually more toward the way each Pope has characterized his office by stating "WE" as if the Pope is speaking like he is part of the person of Christ along with the Father and Holy Spirit.  Maybe I've just misconstrued this, but it makes me extremely uncomfortable.

4.  While I truly do understand and accept the importance of the Magisterium of the Church -- oral teachings, history, and tradition -- I still lack faith and confidence in Church teaching on a few topics: mandatory celibacy of priests (which I find contrary to Scripture), its prohibition of artificial birth control, and its amillenialist teaching regarding eschatology.

There might be a few other minor issues, but I am otherwise in absolute and full agreement with the Church on everything else: the Nicene Creed (and the Athanasian Creed); the real presence of the Body and Blood of Christ; the seven Sacraments; life from the moment of conception, and I'm therefore opposed to abortion (as well as euthanasia) in ALL cases; an eternal Hell; purgatory; all that the church teaches about the Blessed Virgin Mother of God, etc.  And if anything, I am very much a pre-Vatican II traditionalist insofar as the former reverence of God in the form of kneeling to receive the Eucharist, but I have no problem with the Mass in English rather than Latin, or facing the congregation.

The bottom line is that no matter where I stand with the Catholic Church, there is simply no way that I could ever attend a non-liturgical church.  I can't help what I believe, and if that takes me out-of-communion with the Catholic Church, then where do I go?  That's why I had been thinking 'Eastern Orthodox' or 'Coptic'.  Incidentally, I took this questionnaire --  http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=EasternC -- and the results for me were (top 5 ranked in order):

1.  Eastern Orthodox Communion (100%)
2.  Antiochian Rite Catholicism (81%)
3.  East Syrian Rite Catholicism (81%)
4.  Armenian Apostolic Church (74%)
5.  Coptic Orthodox Church (74%)

I know that this has been very long and I hope I haven't exhausted everyone's patience.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek

[Ladonia]

Your concerns are not uncommon among Catholics, though you do have a few more objections than I do. I concentrate on what is most important - that being the worship of God with attendance of Mass and the Holy Eucharist. But I will address your concerns one by one.

1, Infallibility of the Pope. Only in matters of faith and morals and if we can't depend on receiving the infallible of truth on these things from the Vicar of Christ here on earth we are in big trouble indeed.

2.Primacy of the Pope. While he does have the final word, he does in fact work closely with the members of synods or the Curia. Sort of like the POTUS who gets advice from his cabinet members and then makes the final decision.

3. Well, you either believe in the Petrine concept or you don't. Vicar - I believe it means representative. Not a big deal here, at least for me.

4. Celibacy? This should not be a problem as long as you don't have to take that vow, besides St. Paul talks about giving everything to God so for those who can do this I say great.

4a. You are worried about a prohibition of artificial birth control? What is wrong with taking the high ground and not trying to get around procreation by artificial means just because it can be done? The Church has a great teaching with natural birth control, which helps bring about a little self control.

If you just cannot go on with following the Catholic faith tradition, then by all means the other's you mentioned like Eastern Orthodox and Coptic are I would say completely acceptable alternatives because both still have the sacraments. If I ever left the Catholic faith it would be to the Orthodox Church I would go.

Good luck!

[billvelek]

SNIP ...

3. Well, you either believe in the Petrine concept or you don't. Vicar - I believe it means representative. Not a big deal here, at least for me.

4. Celibacy? This should not be a problem as long as you don't have to take that vow, besides St. Paul talks about giving everything to God so for those who can do this I say great.

4a. You are worried about a prohibition of artificial birth control? What is wrong with taking the high ground and not trying to get around procreation by artificial means just because it can be done? The Church has a great teaching with natural birth control, which helps bring about a little self control.

If you just cannot go on with following the Catholic faith tradition, then by all means the other's you mentioned like Eastern Orthodox and Coptic are I would say completely acceptable alternatives because both still have the sacraments. If I ever left the Catholic faith it would be to the Orthodox Church I would go.

Good luck!

Thanks for the reply and advice.  I snipped some of it because I'll address the issues of papal infallibility and primacy in separate threads; my original post was already too LONG (sorry).

Regarding #3, I might not have expressed myself very well, so let me try to put it in a more encompassing way: similar to the sentiments recently expressed by 'mattj' in his thread ("fallen Catholic Casualty"), I am aghast at the sight of any Pope being paraded on a chair carried by others, and with all the pomp and circumstance as if he were a king.  Pope Francis has gone a long way to fix that, I suppose (I don't know if he is always as humble as I've seen him).  Frankly, other than security precautions and a modicum of respect that he deserves because of his position of leadership (like we would extend to any dignitary such as our President), IMO the Pope doesn't deserve to be treated any differently than any other Bishop or Cardinal.  I can't, and never will, imagine Peter acting like or being treated like that, and every Pope should emulate Jesus Christ first, and Peter second.   The way others treat the Pope is no obstacle to my faith, and I will certainly never treat any Pope that way; I mentioned it merely as an "issue" that I have inasmuch as the Church does nothing to discourage it.  It just causes me to have 'doubts' as to whether the Pope is actually representing Jesus Christ, and doubts as to whether the Catholic Church is the one true church.  There has already been so much evil within the Church that I don't need to top it all off with that.

As for #4, priestly celibacy, it is not an "obstacle" to my faith, either; but it is an "issue" for me.  It is an issue because I believe it has contributed, at least to some extent, toward the problem of sexual abuses by clergy, and I'm absolutely convinced that it is also an obstacle to much needed vocations to the priesthood.  And as I said in my OP, it is un-Biblical, too.  I say that because of 1st Timothy 3:2 -- "Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, ..." (Catholic 'New American Bible').  While it could logically be argued that it is a limitation to one wife rather than an absolute requirement of marriage, and I could certainly agree with that, we can also take a look at the slightly different wording of the more traditional Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible, same verse: "It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, ...", which doesn't make the distinction between 'limitation' and 'requirement' all that plain.  In any event, my point is that although the Bible might not require Bishops to be married, it certainly does allow them to be so, ... and where are the 'married' Bishops to come from if we prohibit our priests from being married.  Naturally, at my age (63) and already married, it doesn't apply personally to me, but as I see it, at the very least the Church is off of the correct path, and it doesn't help inspire faith within me.

Likewise with #4a, birth control, Church approval/disapproval no longer personally affects me because I'm 63 and my wife is 65.  But as for procreation, I think we have done our part, having had eight children (and two miscarriages).  But where it is still relevant to me is the very fact that I BELIEVE it is okay.  That places my FAITH at odds with the teachings of the Catholic Church, and if I'm not mistaken, it is apparently grounds to disqualify me from receiving the Eucharist.  Let me be clear about that: it is NOT merely the fact of committing a sin by using artificial birth control, but it is apparently also a grievous sin to believe that it is okay for others (even non-Catholics) to use artificial birth control.  I'm sure someone will probably ask where I got that idea, so here it is -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cssjBb3rYUA -- a priest telling Shawn Hannity that he would refuse to give him communion because Shawn believes non-catholics should have the legal right to use birth control (as if it would ever be possible to pass a law otherwise).  The refusal of communion dialogue starts at about 7:40; for perspective, the full lead-up regarding Hannity starts at about 3:30.  It is true that during that lead-up, Michael Voris mentions Hannity's position re abortion (which is perhaps grounds in itself to withhold the Eucharist), but insofar as I can tell, Hannity's stand on abortion was not even considered by Father Thomas Euteneuer -- only his stand regarding birth control for non-Catholics.  Therefore, since I have the same belief as Hannity, I must conclude that Father would withhold the Eucharist from me, too, and that I am therefore ineligible to ever receive the Eucharist unless and until my beliefs change.  I can't control my 'beliefs', so I guess I'm permanently excluded from ever receiving the Eucharist again.

As for your final comment, my concern ... and residual fear per my Catholic education ... is that I can't leave the Catholic Church without losing my salvation.  I am really troubled by that prospect.

Thanks, and God Bless.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek

[winsome]

 Bill,

This is of course only my opinion, but if you have been to confession and received absolution then you are in good standing with the Church.

I guess most Catholics struggle to understand the Church's teaching on some issues. However I think there is a big difference between having private reservations and publicly opposing clear Church teaching. I don't think such private reservations exclude you from communion.


Regarding "papal infallibility", I'll start a thread on that myself rather than cluttering up this one.

[Ladonia]

Bill, you sure have a multitude of concerns and I fear you are getting yourself worked up over things that you have no control over. You could be in any faith tradition and I am sure there are some things that wouldn't sit well with you.

So my advice would be to concentrate on your love of the liturgy and the worship of God through the reception of Jesus in Holy Communion within the Latin Rite and let the rest of all that other stuff be. We can only try our best to live a holy and pleasing life for the Lord and when the end comes believe that he will be merciful towards us for our faults. God bless.

[Adamski]

If you believe in the healing power and reality of the Eucharist (John 6:53) and confession (john 20 21-23). The rest will work its way out

God bless you