Purgatory - Again!

[doorknocker]

"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ".  So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity?  Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right?  What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"?  This can happen to anyone.  They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?

What a horrible cycle that becomes.  To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will.  Tell me you believe something else.

If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life.  He might, or he might not.  If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place.  But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.

Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above.  And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins".  Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus". 

Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace.  And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...

you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity.  Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that.  What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent. 

My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?

Yes we will be forgiven when we repent.  But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?

If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary.  If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.

If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven.  But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed).  But there is no suffering in heaven.  So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.

Every sin we commit we deserve hell.  So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve.  But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell.  That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections.  Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.

What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins.  In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents.  In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin.  A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.

That really did not answer my question, can you give me a list of what deadly sins are please?

[Catholica]

"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ".  So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity?  Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right?  What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"?  This can happen to anyone.  They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?

What a horrible cycle that becomes.  To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will.  Tell me you believe something else.

If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life.  He might, or he might not.  If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place.  But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.

Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above.  And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins".  Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus". 

Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace.  And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...

you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity.  Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that.  What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent. 

My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?

Yes we will be forgiven when we repent.  But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?

If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary.  If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.

If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven.  But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed).  But there is no suffering in heaven.  So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.

Every sin we commit we deserve hell.  So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve.  But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell.  That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections.  Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.

What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins.  In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents.  In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin.  A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.

That really did not answer my question, can you give me a list of what deadly sins are please?

Here is a biblical list for starters:

1 Cor. 6:9-11
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[doorknocker]

"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ".  So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity?  Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right?  What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"?  This can happen to anyone.  They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?

What a horrible cycle that becomes.  To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will.  Tell me you believe something else.

If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life.  He might, or he might not.  If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place.  But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.

Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above.  And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins".  Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus". 

Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace.  And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...

you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity.  Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that.  What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent. 

My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?

Yes we will be forgiven when we repent.  But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?

If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary.  If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.

If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven.  But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed).  But there is no suffering in heaven.  So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.

Every sin we commit we deserve hell.  So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve.  But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell.  That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections.  Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.

What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins.  In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents.  In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin.  A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.

That really did not answer my question, can you give me a list of what deadly sins are please?

Here is a biblical list for starters:

1 Cor. 6:9-11
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Can you also give me a list of the non-deadly sins, please.

[Catholica]

"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ".  So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity?  Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right?  What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"?  This can happen to anyone.  They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?

What a horrible cycle that becomes.  To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will.  Tell me you believe something else.

If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life.  He might, or he might not.  If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place.  But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.

Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above.  And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins".  Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus". 

Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace.  And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...

you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity.  Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that.  What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent. 

My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?

Yes we will be forgiven when we repent.  But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?

If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary.  If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.

If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven.  But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed).  But there is no suffering in heaven.  So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.

Every sin we commit we deserve hell.  So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve.  But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell.  That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections.  Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.

What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins.  In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents.  In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin.  A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.

That really did not answer my question, can you give me a list of what deadly sins are please?

Here is a biblical list for starters:

1 Cor. 6:9-11
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Can you also give me a list of the non-deadly sins, please.

Sure.  Here is a more complete list for you.

http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php

[doorknocker]

"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ".  So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity?  Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right?  What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"?  This can happen to anyone.  They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?

What a horrible cycle that becomes.  To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will.  Tell me you believe something else.

If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life.  He might, or he might not.  If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place.  But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.

Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above.  And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins".  Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus". 

Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace.  And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...

you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity.  Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that.  What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent. 

My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?

Yes we will be forgiven when we repent.  But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?

If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary.  If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.

If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven.  But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed).  But there is no suffering in heaven.  So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.

Every sin we commit we deserve hell.  So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve.  But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell.  That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections.  Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.

What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins.  In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents.  In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin.  A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.

That really did not answer my question, can you give me a list of what deadly sins are please?

Here is a biblical list for starters:

1 Cor. 6:9-11
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Can you also give me a list of the non-deadly sins, please.

Sure.  Here is a more complete list for you.

http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php

Can you please list the non-deadly sins here so we can see them in this discussion.  Thank you.

[Catholica]

"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ".  So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity?  Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right?  What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"?  This can happen to anyone.  They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?

What a horrible cycle that becomes.  To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will.  Tell me you believe something else.

If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life.  He might, or he might not.  If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place.  But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.

Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above.  And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins".  Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus". 

Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace.  And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...

you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity.  Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that.  What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent. 

My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?

Yes we will be forgiven when we repent.  But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?

If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary.  If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.

If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven.  But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed).  But there is no suffering in heaven.  So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.

Every sin we commit we deserve hell.  So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve.  But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell.  That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections.  Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.

What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins.  In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents.  In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin.  A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.

That really did not answer my question, can you give me a list of what deadly sins are please?

Here is a biblical list for starters:

1 Cor. 6:9-11
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Can you also give me a list of the non-deadly sins, please.

Sure.  Here is a more complete list for you.

http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php

Can you please list the non-deadly sins here so we can see them in this discussion.  Thank you.

From http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf

Venial Sins and Imperfections*
* Imperfections are not sins so they do not need to be confessed. No distinction is made on this sheet between venial sins and imperfections because it is not always easy to make the distinction. Some things are imperfections because they are very small, other things are imperfections because they are dispositions of the soul and not willful actions or failures, still others because they are habitual.

1. I am the Lord your God. You shall not have strange gods before me.
- Failure to pray on a daily basis
- Not trying to love God with my whole mind, heart, soul and strength
- Trying to control things rather than seek God's will
- Entertaining doubts against the Faith
- Failing to seek out or learn the teachings of the Church
- Indifference or ingratitude to God
- Lukewarmness in the relationship with God
- Not trying to grow spiritually; being content with mediocrity
- Acedia (spiritual sloth)
- Putting other things or people before God, e.g., TV, radio, sports, hobbies, etc.
- Attachment to human respect or affection, i.e., caring more about what others think than what God thinks in order to fit in or be liked
- Not trusting God
- Failure to fulfill the duties of one's state in life
- Playing Dungeons and Dragons or similar games
- Tempting God
- Being angry at God
- Embarrassment of being Catholic
- Failure to defend the Church when ridiculed
- Failure to support the work of the Church monetarily and/or with time and ability
- Not taking part in the work of evangelization
- Being willfully distracted at Mass or in prayer
- Putting off confession needlessly
- Failing to accept or offer up suffering
- Refusing or denying the mercy of God
- Not trying to practice recollection or the frequent remembrance of God's presence
- Failure to pray when tempted
- Failure to examine one's conscience daily
- Giving into depression, self pity or self deprecating thoughts

2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
- Using the Lord's name lightly, in surprise or in anger (habitual, not thinking)
- Cursing thoughtlessly
- Using the names of Mary, a Saint, the Pope or other sacred persons irreverently
- Using vulgar or inappropriate language
- Telling bad jokes about sacred persons or objects
- Speaking badly of the Church
- Inappropriate or irreverent use of Scripture

3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day.
- Doing unnecessary work on Sunday
- Failing to keep Sunday as a day for family and recreation
- Failing to spend extra time on Sunday in prayer and study of the Faith
- Allowing sports or other schedules to dictate the Sunday schedule
- Being irreverent in church
- Not paying attention or participating at Mass
- Coming late to Mass or leaving early without a serious reason
- Desecrating the day by sinful amusements, bad company, inappropriate entertainment, etc.

4. Honor your father and mother.
- Fighting with siblings
- Disobedience to parents or authorities
- Failure to give proper respect to parents or those in authority
- Treating those under one's authority disrespectfully
- Failure to respect the dignity of children
- Speaking badly about parents
- Speaking badly about children
- Speaking badly about one's spouse
- Neglecting duties toward spouse or children
- Failing to give good example to one's family
- Not trying to cultivate peace in the family
- Taking one's spouse for granted
- Making fun of or failing to help the elderly or handicapped
- Not praying for those entrusted to your care
- Failing to pray for those in authority over you, e.g., parents, teachers, employers, government officials, etc.
- Failure to teach children adequately about God and the spiritual life
- Lack of gratitude toward parents
- Nagging spouse or children
- Treating adult children like minors
- Meddling in the affairs of married children
- Too lax with rules, boundaries and discipline
- Too strict with rules, boundaries and discipline
- Breaking just civil laws without serious reason
- Being ashamed of or embarrassed about parents

5. You shall not kill.
- Pride, arrogance
- Vanity
- Stubbornness without good reason
- Rudeness
- Failure to apologize
- Fighting or arguing over slight matters
- Anger
- Using obscene or vulgar gestures
- Prejudice
- Harboring a grudge
- Seeking revenge or retaliation
- Wishing evil upon another
- Impatience
- Selfishness
- Listening to bad music
- Excessive watching of television
- Excessive playing of computer games
- Excessive use of the internet
- Watching TV or movies that promote sex or violence
- Playing computer games that promote sex or violence
- Refusing to forgive another
- Intemperance (overeating or drinking too much)
- Driving carelessly
- Failing to care for one's health
- Smoking or chewing tobacco
- Abusing medications
- Sloth (laziness)
- Procrastination
- Lack of puncuality
- Failure to respect the dignity of self or others
- Giving scandal to another
- Treating another unjustly
- Failure to take medications if such are necessary
- Doing things willfully to anger others
- Violating friendships
- Failure to pray for deceased parents or relatives
- Using the "silent treatment" on others
- Failure to pray for sinners

6. You shall not commit adultery.
- Lack of custody of the eyes (looking inappropriately at others)
- Allowing the heart to stray from one's spouse
- Dressing somewhat immodestly
- Acting or carrying oneself immodestly
- Treating others as objects
- Failure to respect persons of the opposite sex
- Seeking wrongful attention from another
- Selfishness in marital intimacy
- Failure to be open to life without serious reason
- Keeping bad company

7. You shall not steal.
- Attachments to persons or things
- Theft of small or inexpensive items
- Willful Failure to return borrowed items
- Wasting time
- Failure to pay debts promptly
- Failing to practice charity or to help the poor
- Squandering money on needless things or pursuits
- Not keeping a promise

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- Lying
- Gossiping
- Spreading rumors or tale bearing
- Talking behind another's back
- Being negative, critical or uncharitable in thought regarding others
- Making rash judgments
- Being unjustly suspicious
- Failure to seek to restore the good name of another whom you have injured through
speech
- Cheating in games, school work, etc.
- Speaking unkindly to or about others
- Exaggerating the truth
- Bragging or boasting
- Flattery
- Complaining, whining or attention seeking

9. You shall not desire your neighbor's wife.
- Telling or listening to impure or vulgar jokes or stories
- Brief entertainment of impure thoughts or fantasies
- Not trying to control the imagination
- Curiosity or playing with temptation
- Seeking out or looking at persons or pictures which are immodest

10. You shall not desire your neighbor's goods.
- Envy (sadness or anger at the good fortune of another)
- Jealousy (desire for the goods of another)
- Greed
- Materialism
- Not trusting that God will provide for all material and spiritual needs
- Attachment to riches or material goods

[skeeter]

Can you please list the non-deadly sins here so we can see them in this discussion.  Thank you.

From http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf

Venial Sins and Imperfections*
* Imperfections are not sins so they do not need to be confessed. No distinction is made on this sheet between venial sins and imperfections because it is not always easy to make the distinction. Some things are imperfections because they are very small, other things are imperfections because they are dispositions of the soul and not willful actions or failures, still others because they are habitual.

Your list has once again given me reason to be so grateful and to thank God all over again that I was led out of the RC 40 or so yrs ago!

[Catholica]

Can you please list the non-deadly sins here so we can see them in this discussion.  Thank you.

From http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf

Venial Sins and Imperfections*
* Imperfections are not sins so they do not need to be confessed. No distinction is made on this sheet between venial sins and imperfections because it is not always easy to make the distinction. Some things are imperfections because they are very small, other things are imperfections because they are dispositions of the soul and not willful actions or failures, still others because they are habitual.

Your list has once again given me reason to be so grateful and to thank God all over again that I was led out of the RC 40 or so yrs ago!

You would rather not know what is sin and what is not? Feeling convicted?

[kensington]

I think... her comments reflect a joy over no one keeping a list over us, no one checking them off.  I'm not convinced that when the disciples when about spreading salvation through Jesus Christ that they had a list.  Or that they had the time to check it to see who is and is not doing this and that.  If you really need a list, then you may not have the conviction of the Holy Spirit that we should have.  If your days are spent in seeking to talk to Him, to know Him, to worship Him... do you really need a list of sins broke down into categories and sub categories. I don't.  If you walk daily, in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that never leaves you, enjoying His touch, His presence, and adoring Him... why would anyone need to keep a list? 

If you need to consult a list to know if taking someone's money in a deal is sin...  you get the idea.  I have JOY JOY JOY...  God keeps no such list, and I have no need of one!

[skeeter]

Can you please list the non-deadly sins here so we can see them in this discussion.  Thank you.

From http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf

Venial Sins and Imperfections*
* Imperfections are not sins so they do not need to be confessed. No distinction is made on this sheet between venial sins and imperfections because it is not always easy to make the distinction. Some things are imperfections because they are very small, other things are imperfections because they are dispositions of the soul and not willful actions or failures, still others because they are habitual.

Your list has once again given me reason to be so grateful and to thank God all over again that I was led out of the RC 40 or so yrs ago!

You would rather not know what is sin and what is not? Feeling convicted?

That'd be funny if it wasn't so sad... No, I don't need a list.  As I read it, I had a vision of Catholics having a print out of it and checking them off w/ a number next to each (#of times done) to take with them to confession.  They'll need to add lights in those confessionals - at least for the older people.  The confessional lines would indeed grow, as would the time waiting and 'penance' given (oh, how many Hail Mary's and Our Fathers would one have to say!)

I was 'convicted' about 40 yrs ago - and it doesn't take a 'list' to tell me if / when I've offended Him.  Just re-read Kensington's post.  No need for me to retype what she has already explained.

[kensington]

My mind goes to the man at the Pool of Bethesda... lying there. Wasting time.  Sinning, when he should have been rolling his body down to the water.  The slacker.

[kensington]

I like to think of wasting time as, "enjoying" not having anything pressing to do. :9)

[BornToReign]

let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled
clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. -Heb.10:22

But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court.
In fact, I do not even judge myself. -1Cor.4:3

Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. -Phl.3:13,14

But Lot's wife, behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.  -Gen.19:26

[BornToReign]

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. -Rom.8:1-5


For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.
Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers,
having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?

But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
"Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.

Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"

When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law),
then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
"This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,"

then he adds,
"I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."
Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.  Heb.10:1-18

[Catholica]

First y'all ask for a list and then when you get one you mock Catholics for having a list.

There are also lists in scripture. I wouldn't mock this list if I were you.

Its not like Catholics carry this list with them. But for those who want to form their consciences it is quite useful.

Notice also that this is a list of venal sins or imperfections.  This is a list of those sins which will not kill the life in Jesus in the soul. People who commit these sins will still be saved.

[kensington]

You don't know that. There is no way you can know that.  Some man decided that. 

None of that was mentioned in the New Testament to the church.  And in fact, that list has had to change as time goes by... Like driving a car recklessly.  Jesus didn't say anything about that.  That should actually be called "Endangering the life of others"... 

That's what's wrong with lists...  men make them, and men mess them up. So men have to change them.  But, GOD is the same, yesterday, today and forever.

And on the point of the jokes, that was me and only me. And I did not ask for any list.   Besides, I didn't see "Having a sense of humor" on that list.  Maybe if you guys lightened up a bit, you wouldn't need all those lists. Peace.

[AVZ]

First y'all ask for a list and then when you get one you mock Catholics for having a list.

There are also lists in scripture. I wouldn't mock this list if I were you.

Its not like Catholics carry this list with them. But for those who want to form their consciences it is quite useful.

Notice also that this is a list of venal sins or imperfections.  This is a list of those sins which will not kill the life in Jesus in the soul. People who commit these sins will still be saved.

I am with you on this one. There is nothing wrong with having a list that can be applied to things in life we take as common.
However, I do think it is hilarious that voting for a Communist Party is a mortal sin, or having excessive tattoos.

Personally I don't think any list would need to be crossed off.
We are all guilty of all the mortal sins. Venal sins and imperfections are just oil on the fire.

[kensington]

It's really a shame when true Born Again Spirit filled Christians need a list to tell them what is sin, and how to behave to his fellow man or their marriage.  That we would even need to check such a list is ridiculous. 

Truly Spirit filled people would know in an instant in their heart and mind if such things as these were sin or not.  I guess this is where the term... "Keeping a list and checking it twice" came from.  Oh... No... wait... that was Santa.

[kensington]

"And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

You should live with the Peace of God, if you don't have it, you have sinned. It's really that simple.

[skeeter]

First y'all ask for a list and then when you get one you mock Catholics for having a list.

There are also lists in scripture. I wouldn't mock this list if I were you.

Its not like Catholics carry this list with them. But for those who want to form their consciences it is quite useful.

Notice also that this is a list of venal sins or imperfections.  This is a list of those sins which will not kill the life in Jesus in the soul. People who commit these sins will still be saved.

If it's my post you didn't appreciate, that's probably because you didn't grow up Catholic - going to Catholic schools.  Live where the majority lived within walking distance of the school/church.  That includes up to maybe 12 city blocks away.  We lived 8 or 9 blks and I still walked to school and home and often home for lunch and back.  I'd walk there on Sat if there was a wedding or funeral too.  And back again sometimes for confession.

I had such terrible things to decide what to confess to.  Had I stuck my tongue out at my sister that week? Went out to play instead of helping her with the housework?  that I brought the dog in out of the cold and hid her under my blankets at night?  listened in on the teenager down the block on our party line? reading my sister's diary? - so many things to think about.
Sometimes we'd meet (girlfriends) at church to go to confession and then over to the drug store for a pop (they still had a soda  fountain then).  We'd all be in a pew waiting for the last person to come out of the confessional so we could start our turns in there.  Then back to kneel down and say our Hail Marys.  Then on Sunday morning we'd all get in line to go up for communion together.

Who put up that site with the sin list?  A few interesting ones on the mortal list.
Did you Loose Your Temper to an extreme [Deadly Sin-- ANGER]?    People don't usually loose their temper, but they might have a loose temper.

and right there on the list it said - Did you fail to meet you Yearly Obligation of Confession, (Easter Duty)? .  I thought as a RC we were required to go at least once a yr.   I asked on one of these threads and someone replied that they didn't remember it being a requirement.

Then there's this one about eating meat on Fridays - Did you intentionally Eat Meat on the Fridays of Lent or on Ash Wednesday?   I brought that up on my women's board (more secular but a lot of Catholics too) and was told it was never a sin, it was just suggested that we not eat meat on Fridays. When I was growing up we couldn't eat meat on any Friday.

I was also surprised to see that it could be a mortal sin not to receive communion once a yr.   so many Catholics make an issue of the Eucharist that it surprised me.  They make claims of how horrible protestants are to only have communion once a month.  So many claim to go weekly - or daily. Yet on the list it's not a sin if you go at least once a yr.  Just once a year.

[Catholica]

You don't know that. There is no way you can know that.  Some man decided that. 

None of that was mentioned in the New Testament to the church.  And in fact, that list has had to change as time goes by... Like driving a car recklessly.  Jesus didn't say anything about that.  That should actually be called "Endangering the life of others"... 

That's what's wrong with lists...  men make them, and men mess them up. So men have to change them.  But, GOD is the same, yesterday, today and forever.

The Church is a living authority, founded by Jesus, so that in every age we would know with surety how to apply the moral law.

And on the point of the jokes, that was me and only me. And I did not ask for any list.   Besides, I didn't see "Having a sense of humor" on that list.  Maybe if you guys lightened up a bit, you wouldn't need all those lists. Peace.

Catholics love to laugh.

"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc

[AVZ]

Catholics love to laugh.

"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc

And so the Catholic sun shone on John Wycliffe among others.

[winsome]

Catholics love to laugh.

"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc

And so the Catholic sun shone on John Wycliffe among others.

Like the Protestant sun shined on the thousands of innocent women they burnt or drowned as 'witches'.

And the thousands of Irish Catholics slaughtered by Protestant Cromwell.

[Catholica]

First y'all ask for a list and then when you get one you mock Catholics for having a list.

There are also lists in scripture. I wouldn't mock this list if I were you.

Its not like Catholics carry this list with them. But for those who want to form their consciences it is quite useful.

Notice also that this is a list of venal sins or imperfections.  This is a list of those sins which will not kill the life in Jesus in the soul. People who commit these sins will still be saved.

If it's my post you didn't appreciate, that's probably because you didn't grow up Catholic - going to Catholic schools.  Live where the majority lived within walking distance of the school/church.  That includes up to maybe 12 city blocks away.  We lived 8 or 9 blks and I still walked to school and home and often home for lunch and back.  I'd walk there on Sat if there was a wedding or funeral too.  And back again sometimes for confession.

I had such terrible things to decide what to confess to.  Had I stuck my tongue out at my sister that week? Went out to play instead of helping her with the housework?  that I brought the dog in out of the cold and hid her under my blankets at night?  listened in on the teenager down the block on our party line? reading my sister's diary? - so many things to think about.
Sometimes we'd meet (girlfriends) at church to go to confession and then over to the drug store for a pop (they still had a soda  fountain then).  We'd all be in a pew waiting for the last person to come out of the confessional so we could start our turns in there.  Then back to kneel down and say our Hail Marys.  Then on Sunday morning we'd all get in line to go up for communion together.

It's not really that hard. If you remember committing a sin you confess it. If you don't remember then the sacrament takes care of that too. If you intentionally withhold a known sin, that is a different matter.

Who put up that site with the sin list?  A few interesting ones on the mortal list.
Did you Loose Your Temper to an extreme [Deadly Sin-- ANGER]?    People don't usually loose their temper, but they might have a loose temper.

You seem more concerned with a spelling mistake than you are in examining your conscience.

The first site probably isn't the best. The more I read it the more I realized that it was compiled by a sedevacantist.

and right there on the list it said - Did you fail to meet you Yearly Obligation of Confession, (Easter Duty)? .  I thought as a RC we were required to go at least once a yr.   I asked on one of these threads and someone replied that they didn't remember it being a requirement.

The Easter duty is a precept of the Church which binds the Catholic to receive communion once a year during the Easter season. If the person has mortal sin on their soul then that also would require them to go to confession before hand.

Then there's this one about eating meat on Fridays - Did you intentionally Eat Meat on the Fridays of Lent or on Ash Wednesday?   I brought that up on my women's board (more secular but a lot of Catholics too) and was told it was never a sin, it was just suggested that we not eat meat on Fridays. When I was growing up we couldn't eat meat on any Friday.

They are wrong.  It is a sin to intentionally eat flesh meat on Fridays of Lent or Ash Wednesday, and actually any Friday of the year that is not a solemnity, unless the local council of bishops has made an alternative. It's a matter of Canon Law, and it is done for a good purpose. Some manner of fasting or abstinence is good for the soul. Intentionally eating meat would be an act of defiance against Canon Law.

I was also surprised to see that it could be a mortal sin not to receive communion once a yr.   so many Catholics make an issue of the Eucharist that it surprised me.  They make claims of how horrible protestants are to only have communion once a month.  So many claim to go weekly - or daily. Yet on the list it's not a sin if you go at least once a yr.  Just once a year.

This is the bare minimum; Catholics also believe that the commandment of keeping Holy the Lord's Day also requires mass attendance on Sunday. But people aren't required to receive communion if they go to mass. But Eucharist is celebrated every week, in fact, every day.

But I don't know and haven't heard of Catholics really caring about how often non-Catholics practice communion. But I suppose some might, it would be weird to me to care.

[Buster D Body Crab]

Catholics love to laugh.

"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc

And so the Catholic sun shone on John Wycliffe among others.

Like the Protestant sun shined on the thousands of innocent women they burnt or drowned as 'witches'.

And the thousands of Irish Catholics slaughtered by Protestant Cromwell.

Pope John Paul II wasn't Protestant when he made an apology for the Inquisition and the Crusades.

And the Catholic Irish at war with England aligned themselves with Royalist armies defeated in the English Civil Wars so as to wage war against the crown that Cromwell was sworn to defend in war.

[winsome]

Catholics love to laugh.

"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc

And so the Catholic sun shone on John Wycliffe among others.

Like the Protestant sun shined on the thousands of innocent women they burnt or drowned as 'witches'.

And the thousands of Irish Catholics slaughtered by Protestant Cromwell.

Pope John Paul II wasn't Protestant when he made an apology for the Inquisition and the Crusades.

And the Catholic Irish at war with England aligned themselves with Royalist armies defeated in the English Civil Wars so as to wage war against the crown that Cromwell was sworn to defend in war.

Oh yes, Cromwell's ethnic cleansing of the Irish peasants was purely in defence of England.

[Buster D Body Crab]

Catholics love to laugh.

"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc

And so the Catholic sun shone on John Wycliffe among others.

Like the Protestant sun shined on the thousands of innocent women they burnt or drowned as 'witches'.

And the thousands of Irish Catholics slaughtered by Protestant Cromwell.

Pope John Paul II wasn't Protestant when he made an apology for the Inquisition and the Crusades.

And the Catholic Irish at war with England aligned themselves with Royalist armies defeated in the English Civil Wars so as to wage war against the crown that Cromwell was sworn to defend in war.

Oh yes, Cromwell's ethnic cleansing of the Irish peasants was purely in defence of England.

You're reaching to bring Cromwell into a thread about the RCC concept of Purgatory.

And Cromwell was following orders. Commit all those responsible parties to indictment for acts back then or does that not serve your interest in Protestant bashing?

Cromwell paid his price for what you seem to think he alone did in Ireland. He was beheaded without a trial and his head was stuck on a pike on London bridge.


Meanwhile, you've ignored the Papal apology for the inquisition and the crusades.

[Catholica]

Catholics love to laugh.

"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc

And so the Catholic sun shone on John Wycliffe among others.

Like the Protestant sun shined on the thousands of innocent women they burnt or drowned as 'witches'.

And the thousands of Irish Catholics slaughtered by Protestant Cromwell.

Pope John Paul II wasn't Protestant when he made an apology for the Inquisition and the Crusades.

And the Catholic Irish at war with England aligned themselves with Royalist armies defeated in the English Civil Wars so as to wage war against the crown that Cromwell was sworn to defend in war.

Oh yes, Cromwell's ethnic cleansing of the Irish peasants was purely in defence of England.

You're reaching to bring Cromwell into a thread about the RCC concept of Purgatory.

Why no chastisement of AVZ for talking about Wycliffe?

[Buster D Body Crab]

You equate John Wycliffe with the Inquisition, the Crusades, and Oliver Cromwell?

[Catholica]

You're reaching to bring Cromwell into a thread about the RCC concept of Purgatory.

Why no chastisement of AVZ for talking about Wycliffe?

You equate John Wycliffe with the Inquisition, the Crusades, and Oliver Cromwell?

Neither have to do with Purgatory, do they Mr. Moderator?

[Buster D Body Crab]

You're reaching to bring Cromwell into a thread about the RCC concept of Purgatory.

Why no chastisement of AVZ for talking about Wycliffe?

You equate John Wycliffe with the Inquisition, the Crusades, and Oliver Cromwell?

Neither have to do with Purgatory, do they Mr. Moderator?

There's much in this thread that has not a thing to do with Purgatory Mr. Catholica.

Mr. Catholica made a very good point here. This thread has been taken, and allowed to go off topic, and I have also partook in speaking of and to off topic subjects. Therefore it is now closed. There's too much cleanup to get back on track and I doubt some would go back on track.

If the OP author would like to restart the discussion on topic that is their prerogative. It's gone so far afield I think that is a sign that it has run its course anyway.