Al Maxey (Church of Christ) and Conditional Immortality

[notreligus]

I first thought of placing this in the Church of Christ forum, and still think it should be there but I suspected that it would get moved here.   The reason for this is that Al Maxey is of the Church of Christ and those who are familiar with Church of Christ preachers with a national reputation would immediately know who he is.   I was surprised to read this but read at another C of C forum that Al Maxey had decided to accept the doctrine of Conditional Immortality which is aka Christian Conditionalism.    I hope to see some comments here.  Thanks.

http://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/conditional-immortality/immortality

Evangelical Pastor Al Maxey, who after studying this now believes in Conditional Immortality, writes:

Trees with bad fruit are burned (Matthew 7:19), and so are unfruitful vines (John 15:6) and useless weeds (Matthew 13:40). These figures are all employed to depict the fate of sinners at the final reckoning. They will be cast into "unquenchable fire." This is the Greek word asbestos which means "inextinguishable." It describes a fire which burns without interruption; it is an enduring fire which none can extinguish no matter how hard they might try. It is important to notice here, however, that it is the fire that Jesus describes as enduring, NOT that which is cast into it. To try and transfer the quality of endurance from the fire itself to that which is cast into it is completely unwarranted either grammatically, logically, or theologically.

That which is cast into the fire will BURN UP. This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume." It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire. It is enlightening, in the context of this study, to note that this word is used in the LXX (Septuagint) in Exodus 3:2 where Moses beholds a burning bush–"The bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was NOT consumed." This particular bush was preserved in the fire (what the Traditionalists proclaim will happen with the wicked), yet Jesus disagrees with this doctrine. Jesus informs us that sinners will NOT be preserved in the fire (like the burning bush was), but rather will be "burned up"–just the opposite of preservation. Thus, the view of final punishment promoted by many is actually in direct opposition to the teaching of Jesus Christ. Jesus says the wicked will NOT be preserved in the fire, the Traditionalists say they WILL. Jesus says they will be consumed in the fire (unlike the burning bush), the Traditionalists say just the opposite (that they will endure without being consumed, just as the bush). Whom will you believe? As for me and my family, we choose to believe JESUS.

Source: www.zianet.com

[Butch5]

I first thought of placing this in the Church of Christ forum, and still think it should be there but I suspected that it would get moved here.   The reason for this is that Al Maxey is of the Church of Christ and those who are familiar with Church of Christ preachers with a national reputation would immediately know who he is.   I was surprised to read this but read at another C of C forum that Al Maxey had decided to accept the doctrine of Conditional Immortality which is aka Christian Conditionalism.    I hope to see some comments here.  Thanks.

http://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/conditional-immortality/immortality

Evangelical Pastor Al Maxey, who after studying this now believes in Conditional Immortality, writes:

Trees with bad fruit are burned (Matthew 7:19), and so are unfruitful vines (John 15:6) and useless weeds (Matthew 13:40). These figures are all employed to depict the fate of sinners at the final reckoning. They will be cast into "unquenchable fire." This is the Greek word asbestos which means "inextinguishable." It describes a fire which burns without interruption; it is an enduring fire which none can extinguish no matter how hard they might try. It is important to notice here, however, that it is the fire that Jesus describes as enduring, NOT that which is cast into it. To try and transfer the quality of endurance from the fire itself to that which is cast into it is completely unwarranted either grammatically, logically, or theologically.

That which is cast into the fire will BURN UP. This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume." It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire. It is enlightening, in the context of this study, to note that this word is used in the LXX (Septuagint) in Exodus 3:2 where Moses beholds a burning bush–"The bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was NOT consumed." This particular bush was preserved in the fire (what the Traditionalists proclaim will happen with the wicked), yet Jesus disagrees with this doctrine. Jesus informs us that sinners will NOT be preserved in the fire (like the burning bush was), but rather will be "burned up"–just the opposite of preservation. Thus, the view of final punishment promoted by many is actually in direct opposition to the teaching of Jesus Christ. Jesus says the wicked will NOT be preserved in the fire, the Traditionalists say they WILL. Jesus says they will be consumed in the fire (unlike the burning bush), the Traditionalists say just the opposite (that they will endure without being consumed, just as the bush). Whom will you believe? As for me and my family, we choose to believe JESUS.

Source: www.zianet.com

It's good to see a pastor accept the truth of the Bible and not by into the superstitions of men.

[RB]

Whom will you believe? As for me and my family, we choose to believe JESUS.

I believe the word of God, that the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire which IS the second death, and there perish. It's really not that communicated; only made so by men not taught of God. I do not know who AL Maxey is, but on this point he's correct, and still do not know all of the finer points of his doctrine on this subject, but seems to me that he's on the right track. I will even take it a step further and asked this question: "where will be the lake of fire? Answer: THIS EARTH as we now know it. This earth will passed away with fervent heat and ALL THINGS THEREIN, including the wicked, JUST AS they did in Sodom and Gomorrah~yet we according to his promises LOOK FOR A NEW EARTH AND HEAVEN! We have bible answers without being "overly concerned" of knowing certain meaning of Greek words.

[RB]

I find it hard to believe that no one has commented on this thread started by notreligus.

[Texas Conservative]

The very words of Christ refute both Al Maxey and RB.

Jesus spoke of eternal punishment in Matthew 25. 

[mommydi]

The very words of Christ refute both Al Maxey and RB.

Jesus spoke of eternal punishment in Matthew 25.

Yes, in verse 46 -
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment is eternal punishment, is it not?

[Texas Conservative]

The very words of Christ refute both Al Maxey and RB.

Jesus spoke of eternal punishment in Matthew 25.

Yes, in verse 46 -
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment is eternal punishment, is it not?

Unless you do mental gymnastics.

[mommydi]

The very words of Christ refute both Al Maxey and RB.

Jesus spoke of eternal punishment in Matthew 25.

Yes, in verse 46 -
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment is eternal punishment, is it not?

Unless you do mental gymnastics.

It's more comforting to think our unsaved loved ones won't burn for eternity.

[Jaime]

Just ceasing to exist isn't a real comfort either. And once one ceases to exist, it is forever. I tend to lean towards eternal punishment.

[mommydi]

I don't mean this in a flippant way, but there's not much Al Maxey could say that would surprise me. I've followed him for decades and watched his beliefs and teachings change slowly - but dramatically, considering where he began.
I wonder what new "surprises" he'll soon have in store for his followers?

Some people see these changing/evolving beliefs as threatening to the truth, while others see it as spiritual growth. Interesting!

[Jaime]

I had never heard of Al Maxey, but that doesn't mean much.

[Texas Conservative]

I don't mean this in a flippant way, but there's not much Al Maxey could say that would surprise me. I've followed him for decades and watched his beliefs and teachings change slowly - but dramatically, considering where he began.
I wonder what new "surprises" he'll soon have in store for his followers?

Some people see these changing/evolving beliefs as threatening to the truth, while others see it as spiritual growth. Interesting!

When that "spiritual growth" directly contradicts the "red letters," than it is a cancerous growth, no matter how "comforting" it is.

[TonkaTim]

TC, I'm a big "red-letters" guy. But I can not find anything in the words of Jesus or any where in the Bible that says the lost will inherit eternal life, much less eternal life of torture.

From the words of Jesus I find that the eternal punishment is eternal death.

Like you mentioned in Matthew 25 Jesus said "41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."


In Matthew 10 Jesus told us about two deaths "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Gehenna)

The death of the body & the death of the soul.


Jesus told us in the most quoted verse in the Bible John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Knowing Jesus' words why would we think those who perish have eternal life? Much less eternal life of torture?


In Revelation 14 we are told "9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

We see the wicked who worship the Beast being tormented in the presence of Jesus, if one believes their torment is eternal then it also means Jesus the holy angels will be in Hell tormenting them forever too. Which is were we know Jesus is not going to spend eternity tormenting lost souls.

I believe the words of Jesus & believe the punishment is eternal. They will be dead, body & soul, forever.

[AVZ]

I first thought of placing this in the Church of Christ forum, and still think it should be there but I suspected that it would get moved here.   The reason for this is that Al Maxey is of the Church of Christ and those who are familiar with Church of Christ preachers with a national reputation would immediately know who he is.   I was surprised to read this but read at another C of C forum that Al Maxey had decided to accept the doctrine of Conditional Immortality which is aka Christian Conditionalism.    I hope to see some comments here.  Thanks.

http://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/conditional-immortality/immortality

Evangelical Pastor Al Maxey, who after studying this now believes in Conditional Immortality, writes:

Trees with bad fruit are burned (Matthew 7:19), and so are unfruitful vines (John 15:6) and useless weeds (Matthew 13:40). These figures are all employed to depict the fate of sinners at the final reckoning. They will be cast into "unquenchable fire." This is the Greek word asbestos which means "inextinguishable." It describes a fire which burns without interruption; it is an enduring fire which none can extinguish no matter how hard they might try. It is important to notice here, however, that it is the fire that Jesus describes as enduring, NOT that which is cast into it. To try and transfer the quality of endurance from the fire itself to that which is cast into it is completely unwarranted either grammatically, logically, or theologically.

That which is cast into the fire will BURN UP. This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume." It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire. It is enlightening, in the context of this study, to note that this word is used in the LXX (Septuagint) in Exodus 3:2 where Moses beholds a burning bush–"The bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was NOT consumed." This particular bush was preserved in the fire (what the Traditionalists proclaim will happen with the wicked), yet Jesus disagrees with this doctrine. Jesus informs us that sinners will NOT be preserved in the fire (like the burning bush was), but rather will be "burned up"–just the opposite of preservation. Thus, the view of final punishment promoted by many is actually in direct opposition to the teaching of Jesus Christ. Jesus says the wicked will NOT be preserved in the fire, the Traditionalists say they WILL. Jesus says they will be consumed in the fire (unlike the burning bush), the Traditionalists say just the opposite (that they will endure without being consumed, just as the bush). Whom will you believe? As for me and my family, we choose to believe JESUS.

Source: www.zianet.com

I suppose there is a way to tell those who go to hell that it's not as bad a the Bible tells us it is.
You just burn up and cease to exist. Nothing to worry about.

[RB]

The very words of Christ refute both Al Maxey and RB. Jesus spoke of eternal punishment in Matthew 25.

You have a right to prove your position, but I'm convinced you will have trouble doing so. "Eternal punishment" means that there is no reversal of the judgment pronounced when they are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second and eternal death.  Mommydi said:

It's more comforting to think our unsaved loved ones won't burn for eternity.

That's not why I believe this truth, I do so, because it is the truth. Some will not agree to anything though ever so plain and certain, if it be contrary to the tradition of their fathers:

Psalm 49:13~"This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings." Selah.

Isaiah asked many years ago:

Isaiah 53:1~"Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?"

Not many and not to many! Again:

Acts 28:24~"And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not."

I have many infallible proofs that there is no such thing a hell fire NOW where the wicked go at death, and a punishment after this life, never to end. I will post them, if you will answer them and prove that understanding is against the scriptures. I will give you my first proof.

Proof #1......"The Scriptures declare what Christ came to do, namely, to deliver us from our enemies~Luke 1:74...and to taste death for every man~Hebrews 2:9.... (Jews and Gentiles). The last enemy is death~1st Corinthians 15:26; and according to Paul's gospel, death has been legally abolished~2nd Timothy 1:10.... He promised deliverance from death and the grave~Hosea 13:14...Jesus said:

John 8:51~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."

Again Paul said:

1st Corinthians 15:55~"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

The scriptures said: "I will will ransom thee from the power of the grave"....nothing is ever said....I will ransom from the torments of hell, nor from a punishment never to end! If there be a punishment after death and the grave never to end, there is no mention of it in the scriptures of Christ's delivering us from it, if so, where? The word of God said, that he is able to save us from death~Hebrews 5:7....this is as much as to say that salvation from death is sufficient,  and that there is no further thing to be delivered from beyond death and the grave; and if it were, deliverance these would not be satisfactory, because not sufficient: for IF there be a punishment after death, who shall delver us from THAT?

Christ delivered from death and the grave; and as no further deliverance from anything is mentioned~we conclude no such deliverance was necessary, nor is there thing of the kind to be delivered from. People who teach an endless punishment of the wicked makes void Christ's suffering, and the comfort of SAINTS~FOR IF a punishment never to end BE DUE to man for sin Christ must forever suffer THAT PUNISHMENT to free us from it, or we must suffer it. All faithful men in the past have always taught that the way and means by which Christ frees us from the punishment of sin, is by his suffering THAT PUNISHMENT of sin which we were to suffer! Is this so, or not? To this agrees the scriptures:

Isaiah 53:4-7~"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."

Again:

Galatians 3:13~"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

So if Christ our surety has not suffered the said torments forever, then has he not suffered enough: namely, that which we were to suffered; so has not delivered us from that punishment.

More coming on the same proof............. 

[AVZ]

The very words of Christ refute both Al Maxey and RB. Jesus spoke of eternal punishment in Matthew 25.

You have a right to prove your position, but I'm convinced you will have trouble doing so. "Eternal punishment" means that there is no reversal of the judgment pronounced when they are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second and eternal death.  Mommydi said:

It's more comforting to think our unsaved loved ones won't burn for eternity.

That's not why I believe this truth, I do so, because it is the truth. Some will not agree to anything though ever so plain and certain, if it be contrary to the tradition of their fathers:

Psalm 49:13~"This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings." Selah.

Isaiah asked many years ago:

Isaiah 53:1~"Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?"

Not many and not to many! Again:

Acts 28:24~"And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not."

I have many infallible proofs that there is no such thing a hell fire NOW where the wicked go at death, and a punishment after this life, never to end. I will post them, if you will answer them and prove that understanding is against the scriptures. I will give you my first proof.

Proof #1......"The Scriptures declare what Christ came to do, namely, to deliver us from our enemies~Luke 1:74...and to taste death for every man~Hebrews 2:9.... (Jews and Gentiles). The last enemy is death~1st Corinthians 15:26; and according to Paul's gospel, death has been legally abolished~2nd Timothy 1:10.... He promised deliverance from death and the grave~Hosea 13:14...Jesus said:

John 8:51~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."

Again Paul said:

1st Corinthians 15:55~"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

The scriptures said: "I will will ransom thee from the power of the grave"....nothing is ever said....I will ransom from the torments of hell, nor from a punishment never to end! If there be a punishment after death and the grave never to end, there is no mention of it in the scriptures of Christ's delivering us from it, if so, where? The word of God said, that he is able to save us from death~Hebrews 5:7....this is as much as to say that salvation from death is sufficient,  and that there is no further thing to be delivered from beyond death and the grave; and if it were, deliverance these would not be satisfactory, because not sufficient: for IF there be a punishment after death, who shall delver us from THAT?

Christ delivered from death and the grave; and as no further deliverance from anything is mentioned~we conclude no such deliverance was necessary, nor is there thing of the kind to be delivered from. People who teach an endless punishment of the wicked makes void Christ's suffering, and the comfort of SAINTS~FOR IF a punishment never to end BE DUE to man for sin Christ must forever suffer THAT PUNISHMENT to free us from it, or we must suffer it. All faithful men in the past have always taught that the way and means by which Christ frees us from the punishment of sin, is by his suffering THAT PUNISHMENT of sin which we were to suffer! Is this so, or not? To this agrees the scriptures:

Isaiah 53:4-7~"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."

Again:

Galatians 3:13~"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

So if Christ our surety has not suffered the said torments forever, then has he not suffered enough: namely, that which we were to suffered; so has not delivered us from that punishment.

More coming on the same proof.............

Good news for unbelievers I suppose.
They go to a hell they will never suffer.

[Norton]

Edward Fudge, well known author in the Church of Christ, published "The Fire that Consumes" in 1982, so Al Maxey is not introducing any new teaching. I have no idea how many members of the CofC Fudge has convinced, but I'm sure his book has had some influence.

Annihilation does fit the doctrine of atonement better. Jesus paid the price for our sins. He suffered horribly and then died. If the price for sins was everlasting, horrible conscious suffering, it would seem that he did not pay the full price.

[Michael2012]

Edward Fudge, well known author in the Church of Christ, published "The Fire that Consumes" in 1982, so Al Maxey is not introducing any new teaching. I have no idea how many members of the CofC Fudge has convinced, but I'm sure his book has had some influence.

Annihilation does fit the doctrine of atonement better. Jesus paid the price for our sins. He suffered horribly and then died. If the price for sins was everlasting, horrible conscious suffering, it would seem that he did not pay the full price.

Not so, for the life in Jesus is no cheap life. It is the most precious life of the only begotten Son of God. It is that eternal life which was with the Father.   

1 john 1:2
2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us

And haven't you learned in scriptures that there is agony in death? One may die a painless death, but if he is unsaved, he sure will experience agony in death, and for as long as he is dead.

Acts 2:24
24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

As for me, the death that Christ died, and the days he remained dead, is definitely more than sufficient to pay for the full price of the sin of the world, past, present, and future. As such, this sacrifice of Christ was once and for all.

[Norton]

The OT speaks several times about the fate of the wicked. No on would interpret those passages as saying the wicked will suffer everlasting torment. In fact, I believe it is Ecclesiastes that says the dead know nothing. Few would interpret the NT as teaching that the wicked will suffer everlasting torment if that had not become the orthodoxy of the early church. It became orthodox because early church theologians took the Greek philosophical teaching of the immortal soul as a given. If we read Jesus' teaching on the fate of unbelievers and the wicked, thinking for sure that all people are born with an immortal soul, then no one can be eternally destroyed, he can only be in the process of destruction forever. None can die. They can only be in the process of dying forever. No one's immortal soul can be eaten up by worms or consumed by unquenchable fire. The soul only gets infinitely smaller and smaller forever, but it is never really consumed.

Both the OT and NT teach that the wicked will perish in a horrible death. The NT teaches that for followers of Christ, the mortal shall put on immortality.